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Subject: RIFC - Draft Discussion #2 Posted by: Guru - [330592710] Sat, Aug 21, 2004, 00:51 Draft guidelines and league parameters are at the top of the first draft discussion thread. Draft recap in pick order Draft grid by team and position After 5 full days, we've knocked off 7 rounds. The clock will be turned off during the weekend, but let's continue to make as much progress as we can. Rationales are fairly up to date, but if you are behind, post them here and I'll splice them into the appropriate spot in the rationale thread. Carry on.... | ||||||
[Lengthy or complex threads may require a slight delay before updating.] | |||||||
| 238 | Guru ID: 330592710 Sun, Aug 29, 2004, 20:31 |
Do others agree with TB [236]? | |||||
| 239 | Perm Dude ID: 2343587 Sun, Aug 29, 2004, 20:43 | We'll end the draft long before game 1. A 48-hour waiver period to clean up the draft, inverse draft order, seems reasonable. By the time Game 1 rolls around all players not on teams will be FAs anyway. | |||||
| 240 | TB Leader ID: 031811922 Sun, Aug 29, 2004, 20:55 | Doesn't matter to me either way. I plan on starting the season with the team I drafted. Most leagues I am in (like the two I just finished drafting for on fanball) have every player available as free agents right after the draft. | |||||
| 241 | Ender ID: 0442215 Sun, Aug 29, 2004, 21:31 | I think there should be a waiver period following the draft. | |||||
| 242 | leggestand ID: 9649128 Sun, Aug 29, 2004, 21:33 | Personally, I would rather have everyone on waivers until after Week 1. This would keep people from "winning the race" to the cpu if a big starter goes down in the last preseason games. | |||||
| 243 | Ender ID: 0442215 Sun, Aug 29, 2004, 21:43 |
I think we should be able to make changes prior to week 1, but the first 48 hours should be by waiver priority. If players make it through then they're anyone's property. I agree that players should be put on waivers each week that way it's not a race to the PC to scoop up any stat grabbers. We can do both, leggestand. | |||||
| 244 | Guru ID: 330592710 Sun, Aug 29, 2004, 21:46 | The waiver priority process following the first game is already set. I'm just trying to figure out what (if any) rules/guidelines we need to establish prior to game 1. | |||||
| 245 | leggestand ID: 9649128 Sun, Aug 29, 2004, 21:53 |
But, if the draft ends tomorrow, then everyone is a free agent by Wednesday/Thursday of this week, but there are more preseason games this weekend. For lack of a better example, and for the sake of not using names of undrafted players, pretend Steven Jackson is not drafted. If Marshall Faulk goes down this weekend, then most people would like to get Steven Jackson. But since everyone is a free agent, only the fastest to the cpu will get him. Maybe I am missing something, though? I understand how the season waiver process will work, I am more concerned with any injuries that occur this weekend. | |||||
| 246 | Ender ID: 0442215 Sun, Aug 29, 2004, 22:10 | I understand what you are saying now. Perhaps everyone should be on waivers until all preseason games are done (When is that? I haven't looked)? Is there a different solution? | |||||
| 247 | Motley Crue ID: 58736522 Sun, Aug 29, 2004, 22:11 |
I just picked. I was watching a DVD and just checked in. Sorry to hold things up. Incidentally, I just watched "The Girl Next Door". If you are a fan of Elisha Cuthbert (from 24), watch this movie. Great, funny, Guy Movie. Lots of racy comedy and I loved it. | |||||
| 248 | Sludge ID: 24914721 Sun, Aug 29, 2004, 22:44 | Waiver period. If only to allow everyone a chance to sit back, look at their teams and the list of available players and make decisions without having to worry about sitting at their computer the minute Guru opens up the market. | |||||
| 249 | GoatLocker Sustainer ID: 060151121 Sun, Aug 29, 2004, 22:44 |
I think it should be a waiver window all the way through. Cliff | |||||
| 250 | TB Leader ID: 031811922 Sun, Aug 29, 2004, 23:34 |
I can live with Guru's 48 hours, but after that we should be able to make any changes we want to. At some point before the season starts, every player needs to be made available. No need to wait until after preseason. If that was the case, why not wait until after preseason was over and have a nice fast draft? Maybe I don't like the injury report on my TE and want to change to someone else. With your guys suggestion, when exactly are people supposed to clear waivers and how will you know who anyone put a waiver claim on? Are we going to have a waivers clearing every 2 days? I seriously hope nobody is suggesting that we announce who we want so that someone with lower priority can come in and say, "Hey, I want that player too." | |||||
| 251 | culdeus Leader ID: 43105818 Mon, Aug 30, 2004, 08:29 |
*Compromise Alert* Put in claims but the actual waiver period will be one time 24-48hrs before the first game. Prevents ins and outs which in my experience happens alot before the start of the season with all the last minute buzz coming out of camp wrap-ups etc. If one of my teen rounded players gets a 6 week injury I'd like to go ahead and fix it and not risk getting stuck with a bad order week 2. | |||||
| 252 | culdeus Leader ID: 43105818 Mon, Aug 30, 2004, 08:31 | I would also reject inverse draft order to start since the number of rounds were even. And that's not to promote myself as the #1 claimant it's just what is fair. | |||||
| 253 | leggestand Sustainer ID: 451036518 Mon, Aug 30, 2004, 08:43 | I like Culdeus' idea where everyone would clear waivers 24-48 hours before opening kickoff (waivers would clear approximately next Tuesday). | |||||
| 257 | Taxman SuperDude ID: 029463114 Mon, Aug 30, 2004, 09:02 |
Having the first choice in the draft and having the first Waiver selection at the end of a draft is absolutely unfair, and is so imbalanced, it doesn't deserve comment. Never-the less, I will comment. Baloney! If you wanted the first waiver spot, you should have selected the 14th and final draft position, instead of the first. I've yet to see a draft, snake or otherwise, that did not set the waiver selection in an order inverse to the draft order. It is the historical booby prize for going last in the draft. I'm in the middle either way, but cannot keep my trap shut when an incorrect, self-serving statement about fairness comes along. | |||||
| 259 | culdeus Leader ID: 43105818 Mon, Aug 30, 2004, 09:09 | Self serving? There are an even number of rounds if the draft kept rolling the 1st spot would get the next pick. Instead the back of the draft now gets the first pick even though they got to pick first in the last round. | |||||
| 261 | Motley Crue Leader ID: 439372011 Mon, Aug 30, 2004, 09:16 |
culdeus, Your logic assumes that the picks from one round to the next are worth the same thing. That's not true, IMO. For example, first pick in round 10 is more valuable (theoretically) than first pick in round 11. Obviously you aren't trying to get the waiver process rigged to help yourself, but everyone has their own interests foremost in mind. I say Guru decides and we just go with it. Normally, all players are free agents after the draft and before the season starts. I think all this fretting about players getting hurt is a little excessive, but Guru should make the call. There's no reason to get into an argument about this. | |||||
| 262 | Ender Donor ID: 013443221 Mon, Aug 30, 2004, 09:18 |
TB, I'm not sure where you got that last idea. Nobody even came anywhere close to suggesting that waiver proposals be publically posted. culdeus, I don't think your compromise was a compromise at all, I think it is what leggestand was getting at. Having a post-draft waiver period that ended at say Thursday before Week #1 seems logical to me. It gives the benefit of all late/post camp news to everyone who is willing to take the time to research it. It also allows a couple of days of free-for-all at the end. | |||||
| 264 | Motley Crue Leader ID: 439372011 Mon, Aug 30, 2004, 09:32 |
I want to make a couple of notes on my posts in the last 24 hours. 1) That was me in 233 above, leggestand. I was doing the Exit42 draft while checking in here periodically, and my brother was using the same computer to draft. He posted in another thread and I forgot to change my handle back before I posted that one. Also, sorry about drafting Longwell as a QB. It was late and I wasn't paying attention. I noticed it later and tried to change him to a PK, but it wouldn't let me. I see you fixed it, so it shouldn't be a big deal. 2) I just noticed I posted a placeholder for Jason Hanson for pick 18.03, when I should have posted for Antonio Gates. Trying to do too much at once. I was picking Hanson, and instead of remembering that I was supposed to go back two picks and post, I just stuck in the name that was in my head. D'oh! 3) Then just now I accidentally posted a past rationale in the rationale thread in the completely wrong spot. I deleted it, but MAN! am I having problems. I definitely have a nasty case of draft fever! | |||||
| 265 | Guru ID: 330592710 Mon, Aug 30, 2004, 09:42 |
I do believe that inverse draft order is better than draft order, in spite of the fact that we had an even number of rounds. There was a clear bias in draft order selection for picking early, suggesting that those picking early had an advantage. Reversing the order for preseason waivers would offset some of that advantage. It appears that the final preseason game is this coming Friday, so I would suggest that we keep all players frozen on waivers until sometime after that - perhaps some time on Sunday. At that time, waiver claims would be processed, and then all players would become free agents. On the assumption that Fanball may not provide an automated approach to this, let me suggest the following. I will set up a separate email address for waiver claims only. If you want to claim one or more undrafted players, send your claim (including the player(s) to be dropped, of course) to this address. When we reach the waiver time, I'll check that email address and process any claims. Results will be posted here, after which all unclaimed players will be considered free agents. You'll have to trust me not to peek at the claims if I decide to claim someone for my roster. Questions: 1. If some teams submit multiple waiver claims, should the claim priority snake for the second round? 2. Should any players dropped through the claim process be subject to a new waiver claim period? Or can they be immediately released into free agency? During the season, dropped players will go onto waivers, but I'm not sure if that would happen automatically for preseason drops. 3. What time should the claim processing and free agency release take place? I'd suggest something on Sunday afternoon - perhaps 3pm ET? (I will be away on Saturday, so that day is out.) | |||||
| 267 | Guru ID: 330592710 Mon, Aug 30, 2004, 09:56 | By the way, I will work on inserting the laggard rationales later today - probably this afternoon. Thanks to everyone for working on getting caught up. | |||||
| 268 | Guru ID: 330592710 Mon, Aug 30, 2004, 09:58 | I just received confirmation from Fanball that any waiver claims processing during preseason must be administered manually, as I suspected. | |||||
| 269 | TB Leader ID: 31811922 Mon, Aug 30, 2004, 10:54 |
Ender- TB, I'm not sure where you got that last idea. Nobody even came anywhere close to suggesting that waiver proposals be publically posted. Guru's post 265 confirmed what I believed. I have never been a league where every undrafted player wasn't a free agent as soon as the draft was over. I wasn't sure how it would be done, but looks like it will be on the honor system. Nobody gets to just go grab a player. We have all had equal opportunity to draft 20 players. Right now, I have no incentive to make my 20th selection before the last preseason game is over, because I will not be able to make any adustments to my roster. Big deal if I get passed by two teams. What if Gannon is cut right after the last preseason game? You don't think I wouldn't want to race on here, dump him, and grab his current back-up? I spent an 8 round pick on Gannon. That is much higher than a 21st round pick (waiver wire selection). (Don't get me wrong on the 20th selection- I would not want to have Guru mad at me or just assign me a player, but I will take my time to make that last selection) I am sure the example I provided above applies to every team who drafted. I am 100% positive I don't want to be waiting right up until the first game starts to make changes to my roster if a player is hurt, cut, or suspended. For the record, we all got to pick our draft position. Even though I drafted 3rd, I didn't get to pick my spot until 9th. If we absolutely must have a post-draft waiver priority, I think it should go inverse of that selection process, with Guru getting first choice. | |||||
| 270 | Motley Crue Leader ID: 439372011 Mon, Aug 30, 2004, 11:02 |
That's an excellent point, TB. You could just wait it out and pick whenever you're ready. The draft doesn't have an official "end time" other than the first day of the season, as far as I can tell. And you should be worried about Gannon. I just read they were going to cut him! J/K. | |||||
| 271 | Ender Donor ID: 013443221 Mon, Aug 30, 2004, 11:17 |
I'm not sure why you quoted that line. He still doesn't say they will be publically posted. At worst one person could see them and if you don't trust him, why join this league? I think there is some merit to your suggestion regarding the initial position draft. I haven't given it serious thought. I still like the idea of a waiver period rather than a dump to free agency. With the internet being what it is I just don't think the person with the fastest connection or fastest finger should get a guy. I have had it happen in other leagues. I see it as the same as a need for a waiver period each Sunday. | |||||
| 272 | leggestand Sustainer ID: 451036518 Mon, Aug 30, 2004, 11:34 |
What if Gannon is cut right after the last preseason game? You don't think I wouldn't want to race on here, dump him, and grab his current back-up? My point is, why should you have the rights to Gannon's back up? Everyone should have an equal chance to get him, per their waiver priority. For example, this weekend is Labor Day Weekend and I will be gone for most of it. If one of my players goes down Friday night (during the last preseason games), there is a good chance I wouldn't put a claim in for him until Saturday afternoon. If everyone is a free agent, then I am almost guaranteed to not get his replacement. If we absolutely must have a post-draft waiver priority, I think it should go inverse of that selection process, with Guru getting first choice. I think this makes sense and is a good waiver suggestion. | |||||
| 273 | TB Leader ID: 31811922 Mon, Aug 30, 2004, 11:55 |
I quoted it because I didn't want you to think I was just tossing something out there without thought. I wasn't sure how it was going to be managed because I was pretty sure it couldn't be done on fanball. I just finished two drafts on fanball and have went in and traded out for two players that other teams dropped. I wasn't sure how it would be handled and my first thought was a waiver priority thread. Emailing our waiver selections to Guru was not something I considered. I do not appreciate you questioning whether I trust Guru or assuming you have any right to question why I joined this league. I like you Ender, but that was out of line. | |||||
| 274 | Guru ID: 330592710 Mon, Aug 30, 2004, 11:59 |
Yeah, I thought about using the inverse of our draft2 pick order. I'm certainly amenable to that. I don't think I've ever been in a league where all undrafted players don't go on waivers for some period immediately after the draft. I think that is the default method for ESPN and Yahoo leagues, at least those that I've been in. TB raises a potential technical loophole if he (or anyone) waits until after Friday's games to make their final draft pick. As Commish, I'll close that by declaring that the draft is officially over at midnight on Wednesday (Sep 1). That is before this week's games, and is certainly way beyond the pace that we have been on. If any skipped picks are still vacant at that time, they must be filled via the waiver (or free agent) process, without any adjustment in waiver priority. In other words, there is no advantage to keeping a slot unfilled. | |||||
| 275 | Ender Donor ID: 013443221 Mon, Aug 30, 2004, 12:44 |
TB, no offense intended. The usual text vs speech problem. Of course you trust Guru, we all do. I was trying to imply that Guru's solution was satisfactory because no one would have a problem with it. I should have been more direct, I apologize. | |||||
| 276 | TB Leader ID: 31811922 Mon, Aug 30, 2004, 13:14 |
Apology easily accepted. Glad to know I was just reading it wrong. Guru- I will make my pick by that time, provided it gets to me. During the regular season waivers process, is everyone available after 48 hours? I was thinking, if we are going to have a post-draft waivers, maybe the fairest way is to just not allow any changes until after week one. That way we have a normal waivers system. Anyone else already set their line-ups for week one? | |||||
| 299 | Guru ID: 330592710 Tue, Aug 31, 2004, 10:26 |
I just worked on rationale updates. Here is the list of those still missing: Perm Dude 14.13 Matt Stover K BAL 15.02 Josh Scobey RB ARI 17.02 Deion Sanders 18.13 Doug Gabriel 19.02 Earl Little 20.13 Labrandon Toefield Mike V 16.08 Reggie Williams Taxman 8.07 Mike Vanderjagt 18.07 Kevin Williams 19.08 Bobby Engram 20.07 Dorsey Levens | |||||
| 301 | Guru ID: 330592710 Tue, Aug 31, 2004, 10:39 |
In addition to completing the rationales, RIFC managers should each do the following: 1. Consider posting any general reflections on the draft. A separate draft recap thread has been set up for this purpose. 2. Review your loaded roster at the Fanball site. I believe I have the entire draft loaded now, so if you are missing anyone, or have any incorrect players, please post them here. 3. As mentioned earlier, do not make any player add/drop transactions at Fanball until after waivers have cleared. You may set your opening lineups, however. I'll post a separate item on the preseason waiver process. 4. You are welcome to initiate trade offers at Fanball now. 5. If you have a chance, please review the league rules one more time to make sure than nothing has been overlooked, and raise questions now if anything is unclear. Special thanks to those of you who stayed alert throughout the draft and kept it moving along, including those who handled queues for others, and those who provided queues. In general, I think the pace was exceptionally good. Special thanks also to those who stayed current on rationale posting, and who kept the rationale threads moving by inserting placeholders when needed. | |||||
| 302 | Guru ID: 330592710 Tue, Aug 31, 2004, 10:50 |
Pre-season waiver process: Preseason waiver claims wil be processed on Sunday afternoon (Sept 5) at approximately 3pm ET. Waiver pickups will be posted here sometime between 3-4pm, after which everyone is free to make free agent pickups without restriction. Players who are dropped as part of a waiver claim will become free agents immediately. After the season starts, dropped players will be subject to normal 48 hour waiver rules, as previously agreed. If you wish to submit a pre-season waiver claim, send an email to waiver@rotoguru2.com. Please use this special address for this purpose only, as I will not be peeking in these emails until 3pm Sunday. In the email, state the player you are requesting, and the player you would be dropping. If you have multiple claims, prioritize them as well. Claims will be processed based on the inverse of our initial draft2 order, which follows: 1 Mike V 2 leggestand 3 Challenger 4 culdeus 5 Taxman 6 Perm Dude 7 Sludge 8 CanEHDian Pride 9 TB 10 Ender 11 Motley Crue 12 GoatLocker 13 deepsnapper 14 Guru In other words, I will have the first waiver priority, followed by deepsnapper, then GoatLocker, etc. If more than one round of waiver claims is needed, the priorities will snake. Hope this is clear and complete. Let me know if it isn't. | |||||
| 305 | deepsnapper Sustainer ID: 017103420 Tue, Aug 31, 2004, 14:48 |
Fred - re#137, I had a moment to find that Pol Forum thread from 2002, I still appreciate the words very much. OT - Do dogs go to heaven? | |||||
| 307 | GoatLocker Sustainer ID: 060151121 Tue, Aug 31, 2004, 20:18 |
Team looks good. Cliff | |||||
| 310 | Motley Crue Leader ID: 439372011 Wed, Sep 01, 2004, 10:41 |
I'm an idiot, I can't believe it took me that long to post my Hollings rationale. I had the damn thing written last week. I just went into Fanball and set my starting lineups for Week 1. I just want to remind everyone to make sure you set a lineup (even if it's identical) for both games of the double header. I don't think the server takes the first lineup as a default for the second lineup. You have to do it manually. | |||||
| 311 | Guru ID: 330592710 Thu, Sep 02, 2004, 14:49 |
Perm Dude - you jumped the gun with your pickup of Minter. See the waiver process in post 302. I'm going to jettison Minter and replace Sanders for now. | |||||
| 312 | Sludge ID: 54692111 Thu, Sep 02, 2004, 14:51 |
 Click to open full-size image in new window. | |||||
| 313 | Perm Dude ID: 2343587 Thu, Sep 02, 2004, 14:55 |
Sorry, I was still thinking of the 48 hour waiver period with FAs afterward. W/send you an email for the claim in a moment. pd | |||||
| 314 | Guru ID: 330592710 Thu, Sep 02, 2004, 14:59 |
I just locked out everyone from being able to make free agent pickups for the time being. I'll release the restriction once waiver claims are processed on Sunday. Note that the email address for waiver claims is waiver@rotoguru2.com. Someone already sent me one at my regular email address, so I wasn't able to avoid seeing it. | |||||
| 315 | cEHp ID: 5483825 Thu, Sep 02, 2004, 21:41 | I picked up McCants but it was only because he was missing from my roster. Just wanted to clarify in case anyone was wondering. | |||||
| 316 | Guru ID: 330592710 Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 08:08 |
I was just informed (by my wife) that I have an afternoon commitment today. Consequently, I will not be processing the waiver claims and releasing free agents until some time this evening. I will post a notice here when it's done. Sorry for the imprecision. | |||||
| 317 | Guru ID: 330592710 Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 17:40 |
Three waiver claims were just processed: Perm Dude: drop Deion Sanders add Mike Minter Ender: drop Marcus Pollard add Jim Kleinsasser culdeus: drop Mike Anderson add Troy Hambick All unclaimed players are now free agents, and may be added without restriction until 5 minutes before game time. | |||||
| 318 | TB Leader ID: 031811922 Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 18:37 | I want to grab a couple players, but need more bench slots. Guess I will stand pat till after week one and see what happens. | |||||
| 319 | culdeus ID: 406391518 Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 18:43 |
"What do voluntary mean" -Troy Hambrick after missing a 'voluntary' mini-camp in Dallas in 2003. What happens if THam beats out Emmitt for the spot in Arizona that he moved there specifically to get away from THam in Dallas and have a shot at a starting gig. Oh the irony. | |||||
| 320 | Perm Dude ID: 2343587 Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 20:29 |
Good luck with that--Emmitt is still the man! Irony would be Hambrick again watching Emmitt get his starts. | |||||
| 321 | TB Leader ID: 031811922 Mon, Sep 06, 2004, 15:24 |
cEHp- Nice grab getting Morgan. leggestand- I thought about dumping Collins to get Mahe, my original choice for the 20th round. Could be a great pick-up. | |||||
| 322 | leggestand Sustainer ID: 451036518 Mon, Sep 06, 2004, 15:45 |
TB, I'm glad you didn't pick Mahe up. Once I saw that the Eagles cut Levens, I thought it would be wise to handcuff Westbrook. My backs aren't very deep, but I now have backups for my top two backs if either goes down, so, hopefully I will be okay. | |||||
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