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Subject: scoring errors and adjusting scores for close game
Posted by: Battles
- [309422812] Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 15:36
Please give your input.
We play on ESPN and a week 7 game was determined by 1.8 points. The losing team checked ESPN's scoring with ESPN's stats and noticed that there were scoring errors. These errors change the outcome of the game.
The first error is that Reuben Droughns was given 2 points for a fumble recovery. Our rules and setup don't give and never have (3 years) given points to offensive players for fumble recoveries. Only idp players.
The other errors are Lemar Marshall getting 3 extra points on one team and Demario Williams getting 3 extra points on the other. That is a wash.
The losing team would like the score to be adjusted. He has stated that he would be ok if the game was called a tie do to the closeness.
The league members believe the losing team should suck it up and take a loss because it opens up a can of worms.
Should anything be adjusted in the scoring/outcome? |
| 1 | Motley Crue
Dude
ID: 439372011
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 15:43
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Are you kidding? The score needs to be fixed. If it changes the outcome of the game, that's irrelevant. I mean, to the loser it isn't, but you all have a scoring system and you need to apply it. Why would you even consider NOT fixing a scoring error?
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| 2 | holt
ID: 4792072
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 16:01
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yeah - always fix scoring errors.
it's not really a can of worms. just set up a process where a team owner can challenge a score if he thinks it's wrong (friday deadline?). use 'gamebook' at NFL.com as the source. the challenges would most likely be rare and they only take a couple minutes to check out.
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| 3 | sarge33rd
ID: 148422311
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 16:02
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How soon afterwards, were the errors brought forward? In principle, Iagree with MC above, but at some point in time, a decision does have to dclared as "final". (Like the Instant replay, if the ball is snapped, too late to challenge.) If the next roster freeze hadnt occured by the time the errors were pointed out, I'd side with changing things. (At the same time, not a single pro sports assoication out there, changes final scores even when they admit the outcome is in error. So I can see both sides.)
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| 4 | Motley Crue
Dude
ID: 439372011
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 16:07
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I play in a league where they had set the auto scoring incorrectly for something and they discovered it last week. So then the Commish decided to go back and retroactively adjust any other scores that might be affected. I think it was an obscure TM DEF stat like blocked kick returned for TD (based on what happened in Philly). Anyway, that's not my preference, and I don't think it affected any old scores, but all the same, I realize different leagues do things differently sometimes.
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| 5 | Battles
ID: 309422812
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 16:12
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Sarge-
The scoring errors were presented early tuesday morning since the winning team had Dunn and D Williams in the monday night game. The losing team agreed to wait until thursday to see if espn would correct the errors themselves. That did not happen. He raised the question again today and the league is responding that the scoring should not be changed.
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| 6 | Motley Crue
Dude
ID: 439372011
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 16:19
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What a bunch of jerks. Sorry, but they need to stop and think for a minute if they were in the loser's shoes. If you are the Commish, I don't see how you can not change it.
A guy shouldn't win because his RB recovers a fumble by another player. Ridiculous.
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| 7 | Battles
ID: 309422812
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 16:21
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We'll now that I have some unbiased opinions I will say that I am the commish AND the losing team. Makes it extra tough on me. Most of these guys have posted on these boeards in the past and now. I tried to appease everyone by taking a tie, but obviously as I have posted, that didn't work.
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| 8 | sarge33rd
ID: 148422311
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 16:26
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Error was pointed out immediately and then the manager agreed to wait? That answers that...you change the score. If the losing manager (you or someone else) agreed to wait to see if the site fixed in, the direct implication would be, if not..we will. Hence, you correct the scoring (it was brought ut in a VERY timely fashion) and if you lose a manager next yeasr due to that, then really, you didnt lose anything worth keeping to begin with.
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| 9 | Tree
Sustainer
ID: 599393013
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 16:30
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MC - i'm one of those jerks who are against the scoring change. battles left out some key points in his posts above. in fact, the argument presented here is different than the one he presented on our league board.
in fact, it really pisses me off that we're seeing a different argument here. it should be noted i'm not involved in the game in question.
it should also be noted that Battles is the owner of the team that would lose if the stats were allowed to stand as is.
direct quotes from Battles on the board:
1. The only fair way we can resolve the scoring in my opinion is to call it a tie. I've compared scoring on 4 different sites (nfl.com, yahoo, espn, and fbg)
Manning +.08
Green +.16
Lemar Marshal- nfl.com & yahoo -2.5, espn & fbg -3
Brees +.16
Hass +.16
Reuben -2 (fumble recovery)
D Williams espn & fbg -3, nfl.com & yahoo -2
That totals the following
Sangre espn & fbg 150.92 nfl.com & yahoo 151.92
DP espn & fbg 151.04 nfl.com & yahoo 151.54
so the issue is not an error on ESPN's part, but rather where the they culled their stats from. ESPN and FBG have one set of stats, NFL and Yahoo have a different set of stats.
my basic premise is that it's currently not an error, as much as it's a difference of opinion on different sites.
as we play ESPN, and not Yahoo or anywhere else, the score that ESPN has should be what is used. if this is how ESPN has scored it, then so be it.
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| 10 | Battles
ID: 309422812
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 16:39
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Tree-
you need to go back and read my posts carefully. what I said in the first post here is what I've been trying to say with ya'll screaming at me that I'm cheating. Please go see that I have stated that I'm using ONLY the ESPN stats and that their scoring is wrong. If you would read my posts it boils down to me taking away the droughns fumble recovery, but you guys don't listen or read.
to the others.
I have stated numerous times that espn's stats are the final stats. ESPN's stats and scoring differ. I checked stats on other sites to make sure that they were accurate. The stats on the other sites have nothing to do with the argument.
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| 11 | holt
ID: 4792072
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 16:42
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why use all those different sites? just use the official stats (NFL's gamebook) and apply your scoring rules.
looking at scoring from various fantasy sites is meaningless.
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| 12 | Battles
ID: 309422812
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 16:45
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Once again. The other sites don't matter. I was stupid for making sure the espn scoring was accurate. Please forgive me for ever mentioning them. ESPN is the site we play on and is the official stats of our league. There shouldn't be any question about that.
This is simply a fact that droughns got credit for a fumble recovery which isn't a part of our league scoring.
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| 13 | Ender
ID: 406351010
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 16:46
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I agree with holt.
Use the official NFL stats and apply your league scoring rules. I think it is as simple as that.
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| 14 | Tree
Sustainer
ID: 599393013
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 16:48
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the can of worms it opens up is rediculous - Battles, are you willing to go back to EVERY game played this season, and double check the scores?
i'd also like to point out that the guy who won this game, is the first place team in the league. most of us would like nothing more than a loss or tie on his record to help us catch him.
but we're not willing to change scoring to do it.
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| 15 | Ender
ID: 406351010
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 16:48
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If that's the issue then why all the hub-bub? If your league scoring doesn't allow for that then the points should be gone.
Tree, I don't see any other side of the argument. Am I missing something?
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| 16 | biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 16:49
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Let's see the league scoring rules.
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| 17 | Ender
ID: 406351010
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 16:51
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Tree, Are you saying if a player were errantly awarded an extra TD and it affected the outcome of the game it should be accepted? If you were the losing team would you just live with it? It sounds like Battle brought this to attention quickly. I can see writing it off if he caught it weeks after the fact.
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| 18 | biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 16:53
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The first error is that Reuben Droughns was given 2 points for a fumble recovery. Our rules and setup don't give and never have (3 years) given points to offensive players for fumble recoveries. Only idp players.
Is this disputed?
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| 19 | holt
ID: 4792072
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 16:53
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no one has to go back and check the scoring of every game. just games that are challenged in a timely manner.
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| 20 | Battles
ID: 309422812
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 17:01
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I'll dig up the scoring format. It's in one of the UFC threads in the leagues and standings.
Tree doesn't get the fact that it's simply a matter of the league scoring being different from the way espn scored it. That is the ONLY issue. I think that me being commish is getting everyone up in arms.
Ender, you aren't missing anything. I have also asked the same td question. No answer.
Biliruben, I can't get an answer to if they dispute the scoring. I don't think they do because I have asked the same question and have gotten no response.
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| 21 | Battles
ID: 309422812
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 17:12
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sorry about the bad formating
http://rotoguru1.com/cgi-bin/mb/footst/412.shtml?1093372159
post 74 is one from the past
current espn settings.
Passing
TD Pass 6 Interceptions Thrown -3
2pt Passing Conversion 2 Every 5 passing yards 0.2
Rushing
TD Rush 6 2pt Rushing Conversion 2
Every 1 rushing yards 0.1
Receiving
TD Reception 6 2pt Receiving Conversion 2
Every 1 receiving yards 0.1 Each reception 0.5
Miscellaneous
Fumble Recovered for TD 6 Each Fumble Lost -3
Kicking
Each PAT Made 1 Each PAT Missed -1
FG Made (0-39 yards) 3 FG Made (40-49 yards) 4
FG Made (50+ yards) 5 FG Missed (0-39 yards) -2
FG Missed (40-49 yards) -1
Defensive Players
Interception Return TD 6 Fumble Return TD 6
Each Interception 2 Each Fumble Recovered 2
Each Fumble Forced 2 Each Safety 2
Each Sack 3 1/2 Sack 1.5
Every Assisted Tackle 0.5 Every Solo Tackle 1
Passes Defensed 1
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| 22 | biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 17:12
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I don't understand. Did the scoring system get put into ESPN incorrectly at the start of the season? Does it allow for scoring "correctly"?
In yahoo, regardless whether a player is IDP, offensive or whatever, if they do something that would score a point, they score a point. Not so in ESPN?
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| 23 | Battles
ID: 309422812
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 17:16
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The scoring system is correctly entered into espn. We play with IDP's and they are rewarded for fumble recoveries, as is shown under the defensive players section. Under the offensive player positions there there is no points for fumble recoveries. I beleieve there is an option to allow this, but our league never has in 3 years and was set up to stay the same since it is a keeper league.
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| 24 | Tree
Sustainer
ID: 599393013
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 17:21
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i'd like to point out that i'm not the only one arguing against the change.
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| 25 | Battles
ID: 309422812
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 17:24
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What are you arguing against? Correcting a score to the leagues scoring rules? That make a lot of sense Tree. What exactly is your problem? You up in arms about nothing, but being against changing a score that you have to admit is an error. I can't take this anymore. I'm simply going to bang my head against the wall till I knock myself out. Get some logic.
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| 26 | Tree
Sustainer
ID: 599393013
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 17:26
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because i think it is, what it is. several people within the league felt that changing the scoring opened up a can of worms.
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| 27 | sarge33rd
ID: 148422311
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 17:27
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makes no diff. If the scoring system does not award points for "X", and the site gave them anyway, you undo them. Period. You cannot get points for doing something that your scoring system doesnt grant points for doing.
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| 28 | Guru
ID: 330592710
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 17:28
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Based on the information presented in this thread, I can't understand why the score would not be corrected when there is an obvious error that was detected quickly. I don't see any worms. It seems like common sense to me.
There must me more to it than meets the eye.
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| 29 | sarge33rd
ID: 148422311
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 17:30
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however, I'll bet THIS is why the points were granted.
Did the "D" initailly recover the fumble or INT a pass and then they fumbled, only to have Droughens recover THAT fumble? If so, once the initial turnover occured, the D became the O and the O became a D. This made Droughens, an IDp and thus ESPN gave him the points for the fumble recovery. (This would not occur, if the QB fumbles the ball and then the RB falls on it. Since the D didnt recover in the interim, there would be no "change of designation".)
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| 30 | Battles
ID: 309422812
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 17:30
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It is what it is....is the biggest poo saying ever. It's not what it's supposed to be, so I'm trying to make it what it should be. Please don't pay your mortgage and tell the collector it is what it is. See if he'll correct that issue.
(continues banging head against wall)
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| 31 | Battles
ID: 309422812
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 17:33
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Directly from nfl's game log. He fumbled and recovered it himself. Why would anyone reward that? Culpepper would be #1 overall if that happened.
2-5-CLE35 (14:17) R.Droughns left end to CLV 29 for -6 yards. FUMBLES, and recovers at CLV 30.
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| 32 | sarge33rd
ID: 148422311
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 17:34
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that the end of it. The score gets changed, period. You're the commish...BE a commish. Anyone quits the league because you found it necessary to right a wrong...say good-bye and good riddance.
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| 34 | Battles
ID: 309422812
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 17:36
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Guru-
There is nothing more to this. It's just that I'm the commish and the error correction gives me the win or tie. It should truly give me the win, but I suggested a tie do to the close score, circumstances and me as the commish being involved. It's nothing more than Droughns getting credit for recovering his own fumble which for 3 years has never been rewarded through our rules.
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| 35 | leggestand
ID: 17744278
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 17:37
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I am in the league, too, and hadn't checked the league site today and didn't realize this issue was happening...
Battles, I agree with you. I thought when you posted on Tuesday that it was pretty much resolved since you were just willing to wait until today. I guess not.
I don't think we need to go back and change prior scores. Everyone should be responsible for their own teams, so, if no one brought inaccuracies in weeks past, then those scores are final.
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| 36 | rockafellerskank
ID: 180352016
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 17:37
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I'm not sure that even qualifies as a fumble. I see QB's mishandle snaps(fumble) all game long and pick them up. I've never seen the QB with 4,5,6 fumble recoveries.
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| 37 | sarge33rd
ID: 148422311
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 17:41
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indeed rfs. It may show 4, 5 or 6 fumbles. But assuming the O recovered them, it will show no fumbles lost. Not 4, 5 or 6 fumbles recovered. (Thats why I questioned whether the D recovered in the interim.)
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| 38 | Uptown Bombers
ID: 35616416
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 17:56
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According to your league rules, a player gets a -3 for a fumble loss. Did Droughns get the -3 and then the +2 for the recovery?
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| 39 | Motley Crue
ID: 2192327
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 17:58
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Lost fumble is defined as losing a fumble, to the other team, UB. That's not applicable in this instance.
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| 40 | Uptown Bombers
ID: 35616416
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 18:00
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That's exactly my point. If he didn't lose it, how could he recover it?
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| 41 | Uptown Bombers
ID: 35616416
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 18:06
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Either way, you're right, its moot. I was just trying to help Battles argue from his opposers' viewpoint. If they want to count the recovery, you need to count the loss, imo.
Still seems to me like the score should be changed.
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| 42 | Motley Crue
ID: 2192327
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 18:07
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Yes, but if they take away 3 and add 2, Battles loses. Then there's no point in changing the score.
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| 43 | Uptown Bombers
ID: 35616416
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 18:12
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By changing the score, I meant discrediting the recovery points.
And they've already added the two points. Subtracting the 3 would still let Battles win, no?
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| 44 | sarge33rd
ID: 148422311
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 18:18
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In our rotisserie league, we have a rule which requires that all roster slots be filled (including the bench.) Reason being, players are bid upon and ea manager has $X to use for team salary. If you dont have to fill your bench, you have "extra" dollars available compared to other managers who do fill the bench. So, we require all teams to roster the same number of personnel. One week, one of our managers dropped a player, didnt add one via the waivers and then won his game. I as commish, subsequently went in and changed that, since his roster was ineligible. I know it torqued the manager in question and I know at least one other was po'd over it, but rules are rules. I see it as a major part of the commish's job, to ensure that the rules are applied evenly, to everyone, every week.
I say, change it. If you lose a manager over it...then you lose someone who is willing to cheat to win or accept cheating to win. In which case, you've lost nothing.
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| 45 | culdeus
ID: 109401920
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 18:32
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Only reason I suggested waiting was because the discrepancy between nfl.com and espn would have made all this meaningless if espn reconciled to the nfl scoring. It's Friday and they haven't and I assume they won't.
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| 46 | sarge33rd
ID: 148422311
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 18:49
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we're using ESPN also this year, and it hs been nothing short of a nightmare. First and last time there for a FF league.
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| 47 | Tree
ID: 239152817
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 19:16
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amen to that Sarge. i think we've also decided that we won't be returning to ESPN next year...
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| 48 | TB
ID: 1286814
Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 19:38
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I can't believe this is really being debated by people in your league. I am with MC, Holt, Sarge, Bili, Ender, Guru, Bombers, and Legge. Change the scoring and reward the right team the win. Not a tie, but the win.
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| 49 | Vee
ID: 8750149
Sat, Oct 29, 2005, 10:04
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Without reading this entire thread, I could only be on the side of
the scoring change if the scoring anomaly was in effect for one
week or game. If the setting have been scoring the same way all
season, well then I'm against it.
It would be foolish to adjust all the games played so far. Just
accept the new scoring system and see if it can be fixed next year.
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| 50 | sarge33rd
ID: 148422311
Sat, Oct 29, 2005, 10:42
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you're in the distinct minority there Vee. I (and I think most of us) feel as if it is a managers own obligation, to "verify" his teams weekly scoring and then to point out errors. If the site aarded points, for a non-scoreable event, then the score needs to be fixed. Else, you could see (and have to accept) the site awarding a DB 6 pts for throwing a TD. (Obviously an error, but one according to you, which woud have to be ignored until "next year".) I see no valid reason, for waiting until next year to fix asn obvious problem.
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| 51 | Promize
ID: 26952515
Sat, Oct 29, 2005, 12:50
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Sarge,
I am in this league with Battles and I have used examples of our Rotoguru league pass problems. This is the problem I see in doing this, if he does this for his own team, he then needs to go back through EVERYONE elses games and players and adjust their scores for the season.
Now as a commish, I think that is his job, if he changes the scoring for this week to go back and change the scoring for everyone that had this same problem.
I don't care if he changes it or leaves it alone, but has to be some consistency. Either you play with what the league has done for 7 weeks, or make this change and go back and fix all the other erros.
This league is very tight in the standings and scoring breaks a tie to make it or not make it into the playoffs.
This has been my big disagreement with the adjustment.
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| 52 | J
Leader
ID: 049346417
Sat, Oct 29, 2005, 13:18
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I disagree Promize. it should be up to each individual manager to find scoring discrepancies with their team. It is not the commish's responsibility. However, it IS the commish's responsibility to research/fix any scoring errors if they are brought to his attention.
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| 53 | Promize
ID: 26952515
Sat, Oct 29, 2005, 13:24
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That is where another arguement comes into play. This is a keeper league with no rules site, no constitution, etc... I play in some leagues where commish's take the responsibility and some that don't. Nothing set in stone about any of this.
If we have been playing for 7 weeks like this, and then this week we make a change... Don't you think the previous weeks scores need to be adjusted as well?
Why not finish off the season as is and beaware of the problem next year is my point.
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| 54 | sarge33rd
ID: 148422311
Sat, Oct 29, 2005, 13:44
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because it isnt a change. No points are provided under your scoring system, for the action which ESPN and only ESPN awarded the points. The commish in this case isnt changing your scoring system, he is enforcing it. And THAT my friend, IS the job of the commish.
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| 55 | sarge33rd
ID: 148422311
Sat, Oct 29, 2005, 13:45
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re previous weeks, if "you" didnt check the scoring and lodge a "complaint" or grievance with an error, thats "your" fault. Not his.
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| 56 | Battles
ID: 50782412
Sat, Oct 29, 2005, 22:26
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Promize-
I don't have time to check every score. I check my own scores and everyone else should. As commish I already put twice as much time to the league as anyone else. for this I usually just get headaches. I'm not anyones mom and I refuse to cater to everyone by checking their scores. I assume everyone is a grown man and is capable of doing this. If I wasn't involved in this game no one would be screaming for me to check all scores. If you had your game overturned would you go back and check every score? The answer would be NO. You'd say go check your own damn score. Right? This and most of the situation is based on a double standard that some people in the league have for me as commish.
You argument that we have been playing differently for 7 weeks is bogus. We've been playing under the same scoring system for 3 years. If I'm wrong on this please point it out. I'm enforcing the scoring rules. That's it. Period. Why all the talk that I'm breaking rules? I'm enforcing them.
Lastly we do have rules. We have an agreed upon scoring format, etc. Those are rules. I'm sorry I don't have MORE time to sit down, get everyone input (impossible), and draft a lengthy constitution.
I appreciate everyones input. I'm going to take away the points and reward the win. I'm hoping that this won't affect the players in the league, but it's the only right thing to do.
Thanks.
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| 57 | sarge33rd
ID: 670916
Sat, Oct 29, 2005, 22:55
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Battles...if a slot in your league opens up because of this decision, AND you would like a "punching bag" in your league...I'll volunteer to fill the vacancy next season. (My teams have a long and soundly established history of A) occupying the I/R {I picked up R Ferguson off waivers last week...lasted all of 1 qtr) and/or B) underperforming something fierce. (I have Culpepper and M Harrison in one league and between the two of them, the entire season to date equates to one pretty good game. I just swapped Jamal Lewis in another league for Coles/M Mohammed. (2 years ago, I swapped M Harrison to GET Jamal Lewis. Dont I feel good now.)
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