Posted by: Guru
- [330592710] Wed, Jun 28, 2006, 11:21
I've started working on the pecking order for RIFC invitations for the 2006 season. Here are the guidelines that I suggested at the beginning of last year:
Teams to be invited to the 2006 RIFC: 1. me 2. The top 4 playoff seeds in the RIFC 3. The RIFC Playoff winner 4. The top 2 playoff seeds in each AAA league 5. The playoff winner in each AAA league 6. The playoff winner in the AA league
First, can someone tell me who won the AA playoffs? I can see that russelldl was seeded #1, but don't see any playoff results posted.
Based on these criteria, I believe only 10 managers are defined. Criteria 1-3 define only 4 teams. Also, in AA2 the playoff winner was the #2 seed, so the three potential teams from that league collapse to 2. Thus, it looks like I can expand those criteria to pick up four more teams.
While I have not yet formally invited anyone, I believe that the following managers are defined by the above guidelines:
Any suggestions for how the final four invitees should be determined?
1
Kyle
ID: 261371521 Wed, Jun 28, 2006, 12:39
Guru, I played in AA last year and the winner was s_R. My opinion is that the #5 and #6 seed in the RIFC and (not knowing what seed Breezer was) the #3 and #4 seeds in AAA. If Breezer was one of those seeds then possibly russelldl (Top seed in AA). If you don't want the top seed of the AA the championship game was lost by Nerfheaders. Are there any qualifications for moving from AA to AAA? And if needed I could post the entire playoff results from the AA.
2
The Beezer Leader
ID: 191202817 Wed, Jun 28, 2006, 12:51
I was the #3 seed in AAA1.
3
Kyle
ID: 261371521 Wed, Jun 28, 2006, 13:12
Crap I forgot about AAA2 in my opinion. That makes it tougher. I'll change my opinion to this: The RIFC #5 and #6 The AAA2 #3 seed and the AA #1 seed (Russelldl). I say this because AAA1 already has 3 seeds in and to make it ballanced from the 2 AAA leagues make it 3 teams from each. RIFC #5 and #6 were playoff teams in the RIFC already and they should still be rewarded for that, and Russelldl and s_R tied for the top spot in AA and Russelldl got the spot due to points. s_R won the playoffs so there was no "outright winner" of the league. I think therefore both should move on. Just My Opinion
4
The Beezer Leader
ID: 191202817 Wed, Jun 28, 2006, 13:27
I'd prefer to see the 5-7 seeds in RIFC along with the #3 from AAA2, which gives you 50% turnover in the RIFC.
5
youngroman
ID: 43441182 Wed, Jun 28, 2006, 15:10
I'd go with #5, #6 from RIFC, #3 from AAA2 and #1 from AA. a good regular season should be worth something. I say that because I usually do good in the regular season and get unlucky in the playoffs.
6
GoatLocker Sustainer
ID: 060151121 Wed, Jun 28, 2006, 15:16
Based on yr's comment in 5, then there should be some wieghting for my 7th seed finish in RIFC.
I had the 5th most Points For. And was #1 in Points Against.
Guess what I'm trying to say, is that seeding is not the entire picture.
Cliff
7
beastiemiked
ID: 18301915 Wed, Jun 28, 2006, 15:18
AA should only get 1 team. I'd go with what Beezer suggested.
8
Nerfherders
ID: 501035289 Thu, Jun 29, 2006, 14:01
I'm still a little sore about losing the AA championship because of the scoring error when setting up the AA league. I will gladly accept the invite to AAA but I still feel I won AA because of the scoring difference.
9
Ref Donor
ID: 539581218 Thu, Jun 29, 2006, 15:58
Since I did a lot of drafting for Promize last year, I got interested. If I wanted to get involved, where would I sign up?
10
Guru
ID: 330592710 Thu, Jun 29, 2006, 16:04
Here's the general process:
RIFC invitations are sent out in early July. Once those have been accepted, a thread is started which states the priority guidelines for filling a slot in a AAA league. (There will be two AAA leagues). At that point, qualified managers can accept a AAA berth, and those not meeting the AAA qualifications (including those who have never participated in a RIFC league before) can start "signing up" for a AA league. We can have as many AA leagues as needed, assuming that we get a Commish for each league.
I imagine the AAA/AA signup process will start sometime around the All Star break.
11
Guru
ID: 330592710 Thu, Jun 29, 2006, 16:39
Does anyone have an email address for s_R?
12
GoatLocker Sustainer
ID: 060151121 Thu, Jun 29, 2006, 17:03
Dave, I'm pretty sure I do at home. Can't get into my gmail account from here at work.
If nobody gets it to you early, I'll send it to you when I get home.
... i was RIFC AAA#2 3rd seed and went all the way to the playoff finals... wich i lost :(
17
leggestand Leader
ID: 451036518 Fri, Jun 30, 2006, 14:29
I vote for #5 and #6 from RIFC, #3 from AAA2, and the AA regular season winner. If the AA winner was also the playoff winner, I would take the #7 seed from RIFC or the #2 seed from AA.
I also think Goatlocker brings up a good point...how do we measure the #5 and #6 team in RIFC? Points or record? I lean towards points, but we play the game based on record.
I understand there being a lot of talk about regular season performance (for RIFC)... but what about playoff performance? Isnt is a given that the team in the playoffs had a good regular season... and even tweaked out their team for a push in the playoffs? Personally... I think its a lot more important on how far you made it in the playoffs (like semi-finals for instance) than wether you finnished the regular in 6th or 7th.
My .02
19
culdeus
ID: 21658420 Tue, Jul 04, 2006, 22:02
Last year was hard because even week 16 you had numerous teams sitting studs. The studs that carried people through. A knockout style playoffs has never really worked all that well, but there aren't many alternatives that people can tolerate.
20
culdeus
ID: 21658420 Tue, Jul 04, 2006, 22:11
Some of you might have forgotten, or didn't pay attention to the RIFCXLC. It was an unofficial alternative to the playoff system based on the WCOFF playoff format.
Depending on how you feel about AA then 1 of the 4 (AAA2) would have been impacted enough to change the results.
21
Kyle
ID: 261371521 Wed, Jul 05, 2006, 02:50
culdeus. While that's a good way to measure the way the leagues preformed, I don't think it's "scientific" enough. If that were the case the breakdown for the top 14 would go: RIFC- 4 AAA1- 2 AAA2- 5 AA- 3 I don't believe that the AAA2 was that good. That's not a knock on the AAA2 players it's just I think the RIFC should still get the most teams in. If there was a better way to edit the scoring scale factor, that might help it out because if you use that the #2 team in the AA should get in hands down over the #7 team in RIFC. Maybe we should pick the team that had .
22
culdeus
ID: 14239321 Wed, Jul 05, 2006, 13:16
Well, if you want to look at this as a ladder style league where people come and go then that's a better way of looking at it. The XLC was not meant to be a qualifier by any stretch for the RIFC(n+1).
I'm not convinced of a need for a AA and the separation that it provides in this format. This sub-board has been dead for the 4 years following the introduction of ultimate football. Anyone sticking around just likes the competition that the people here provide and deserve the benefit of the doubt. And furthermore, providing a more difficult hurdle for certain leagues is elitist in that context.
I probably see the need for a AA in sports that begin with a B due to the need for constant supervision of the roster. If you can't keep interested submitting 13-16 rosters a year then I can't help you.
You could then form some sort of score/playoff qualification system to get the rest in and have "captian's choice" like the ryder cup for the last one or two. At a minimum I'd like to see the highest regular season scorer that isn't the playoff winner get in along with the playoff winner from each satellite league.
----------
AAA2 was an anomaly because we had 3 pretty horrid drafts, but that's just gonna happen.
23
culdeus
ID: 14239321 Wed, Jul 05, 2006, 13:17
Also, the scale factor was to take into account the discrepancy between TeamD in the real scoring and in the AA scoring. The extra scoring increased AA players by 4% and they were adjusted accordingly. This wasn't to penalize them in some way for being AA.
24
Guru
ID: 330592710 Wed, Jul 05, 2006, 13:44
I essentially view the RIFC system as a primary league and 2 AAA qualifying leagues. That allows for a reasonable degree of migration back and forth from year to year. Having only one AAA league creates too much congestion. Having more than 2 AAA leagues creates difficulties as well. The 1:2 ratio seems to produce the best balance.
The AA league system was created to provide an opportunity for extra managers to get involved. We have allowed for the winner of the AA league to advance to the RIFC, but I do not want to expand that number. The AA system is really to provide an orderly way to play your way into a AAA league. Last year we had only one AA league. In other sports, we have more. We could certainly have more AA leagues in football too, although if all AA winners advance to the RIFC, the situation gets crowded again. so I"m not even willing to assert up-front that every AA winner will advance to the RIFC, regardless of the number of AA leagues.
Excluding me, it seems a good balance is to keep 6 RIFC teams, and bring up 6 AAA teams. If you add me and a AA winner, then you get a 14 team league.
The other 7 RIFC teams would drop to AAA. All playoff teams in AA would advance to AAA. This year, those two criteria produce 14 teams. That leaves 13 teams to remain in AAA. Excluding the 6 that advance, that's 8 playoff teams and 6 others. Possibly the "6 others" could be drawn from the AA non-playoff teams as well.
25
Ref Donor
ID: 539581218 Wed, Jul 05, 2006, 15:18
How many make the playoffs in RIFC? Maybe you take them or you take all of them except the last place team in the playoffs etc. Guru is the wildcard as if he makes the top how many ever keepers then there is always an extra spot you can use. The Guru laid it out with two AAA teams and a primary AA team seems to make the most sense. Football can be a crapshoot any given week, but over the long haul it seems that the top teams rise to the top. So while the top team (say AA champ) might not be as good as the AA 2nd place team, those are teh breaks. But when you talk about top 5 or 6 teams there has to be a cutoff somewhere and for the year you have many chances to overcome a bad week or your opponents sensational week.
26
Valkyrie
ID: 313182621 Wed, Jul 05, 2006, 15:59
essentially I agree with guru's breakdown however I would like to make sure the top half of RIFC teams make it in years that guru is not in top 7(probably at the expense of an AA winner). Also I am unclear are we talking AA reg season winner or playoff winner?- personnally I don't like the jump all the way from AA to RIFC so I would only promote an AA team to RIFC if it won both the regular season and the playoffs.
27
culdeus
ID: 21658420 Wed, Jul 05, 2006, 16:15
Well, last year a couple people were allowed to skip the AA step and jump right to AAA.
If it's truly to be a ladder system that needs to be minimized to some extent.
28
holt
ID: 465222814 Wed, Jul 05, 2006, 16:43
I'd hate to see AA teams be completely pushed out from having a chance to move up to RIFC. 2 seasons ago I was the leading point-scorer in a AAA league but I didn't win the playoffs so I had to play AAA again last season. then I had some problems with my team last season (culpepper, clayton, bruce, etc.), and I am probably relegated to AA this season. now if we go with this idea of not letting AA teams move directly up to RIFC then the earliest I could possibly play in the RIFC is 2008, and that's only if I manage to avoid disaster and have two strong seasons in a row.
if I play AA this year, I want to know that I have something to fight for. I don't want to be just fighting for a chance to move back to AAA. If all I can earn is a spot in AAA next year then big whoop. I've already commished 2 AAA leagues. it doesn't sound like much of a reward to me.
fantasy football is very unforgiving. keep that in mind. it's easy to totally discount AA teams when you're already in the RIFC, but don't forget that no matter how skilled you may be, you're only a few injuries away from being in AA yourself. don't turn AA into a meaningless scrap-pile, please.
29
culdeus
ID: 481161220 Wed, Jul 05, 2006, 17:18
Well put holt.
30
Hubble
ID: 185332620 Wed, Jul 05, 2006, 17:42
I kinda agree with Holt here... since Football is kinda unforgiving, maybe we could go with a system of point taking into account more than a year. Newcomers would need few season to really proove themselves while a good season could help a weak one. I didn't put much tought in that so it make not make sense, but its Guru's invitationnal and the qualifying leagues are there to show him who is worthy to come up and challenge the big guys. (i beleive top AA could jump right into RIFC to give hope, but not more than 1. But maybe a good season in AA could be stored in with points.)
H2H is also hard. Last year AAA#2, Culdeus had an amazing 17-9 while having the most point against (3120). He could easily have finnished 8th or 9th. While Dilligad finnished 2nd (16-10) while having only 2832 PA.
I think we could give some thought on a point system not too complicated that would take into account Regular season, playoff and PF-PA ratio. While keeping the record of 2 or perhaps 3 years. I kinda like Culdeus ladder system even though it needs some adjustment.
i get the feeling i'm not real clear... blame my poor english. :)
31
The Beezer Leader
ID: 191202817 Wed, Jul 05, 2006, 18:12
I think it's beneficial that an AA team get moved to RIFC - that's also been a staple of all the other invitational leagues so I wouldn't want to take that away unless necessary. We've had 3 non-RIFC leagues the past two years and I would be surprised if we needed more than a single AA league (although that would be great!) so I don't think more than one spot would be needed.
Part of the reason that teams went straight to AAA last year was due to there being less participation than in other sports so we couldn't fill 2 AAA leagues with only playoff teams from the qualifiers - if we could get enough teams to make 2 AA leagues as well then it would simplify this going forward.
As far as fantasy football being unforgiving, that's the nature of the game we're based on. Ask the Bengals how fair single elimination is after a season of hard work is undone with an injury to a key player.
Guru's plan looks reasonable to me and the only tricky part I see if figuring out how many AA teams will move up. We need 28 total teams, so 7 RIFC + 7 AA playoff teams + 10 non-promoted AAA playoff teams = 24 teams total. I would recommend keeping the ninth and tenth place teams in each AAA league in AAA. Otherwise, at best ninth-place AA team would move up to relegate a tenth-place AAA team otherwise and that just doesn't seem right in my book.
I don't see how 10 teams can be booted from the RIFC. I'd like to see at least 6 RIFC teams return, if not all 8 playoff teams.
And if possible, let's use a standard measurement tool for declaring how a team is ranked: points or final ranking position/record. This issue keeps being fingered, but we never really decide it. I realize that most people feel the record is a crapshoot and that teams sometimes win 68-59. Points totals may be a better overall indicator of managing prowess; however there is also a bit of luck involved there, too. I suppose once we get beyond the invitations based on playoff finishing position, we could reward the guys that scored the highest, as we do in the RIFC, where the final 2 playoff spots go to the highest scorers not already in the Top 6 seeds.
Wow, it's hard to write intelligently about this. I know what I mean, but I wonder if others do after re-reading that.
33
holt
ID: 465222814 Thu, Jul 06, 2006, 17:30
my opinion - I think teams should be ranked based on their W/L records. if you rank them based upon points then why even set it up as a H2H league? points are a nice tie-breaker. H2H is so cool in fantasy football because it helps give the feel of real football. you can get your ass handed to you one week, but it's just 1 week - you put it behind you and move on. if you overemphasize overall points for the season then you get something closer to TSN's Ultimate Football. I'd suggest emphasizing wins wherever possible, just like the NFL.
34
holt
ID: 465222814 Thu, Jul 06, 2006, 17:36
btw - I'm going to be on vacation July 14-22 (going camping/hiking/partying/fly-fishing/disc-golfing in wyoming!). hope I don't miss out on the league sign-up festivities.
Holt, the only flaw I see in your argument (W/L being like the real NFL) is that in fantasy football you do not have the ability to play defense, unlike the NFL. Sure, for most teams in a league points against may be similar, but what about that one team that every game just runs into the team of the week, goes slightly better than .500, but is top 3 in the league in points? Or, what about the top 3 team that wins every game, but it's mostly because he is the best in the league in points against? It seems like almost every league has this one "unlucky" and "lucky" team, and I don't think it's fair to say, "well that manager wasn't good enough to stay in the RIFC," especially if he scored more points than seeds that are getting automatic invites back.
Like you, I do enjoy how fantasy football allows for HTH games with upsets and playoffs, etc. But, I enjoy HTH for the excitement it generates during the season. After the season, when looking at who should be invited back to the RIFC/AAA/etc, I think we need to look at points at least as much as we look at W-L records, because points (IMO) give a better indication of the better overall teams, in comparison to W-L.
36
Doug Leader
ID: 02730280 Thu, Jul 06, 2006, 18:28
I agree, H2H adds to the regular season drama, but PF are IMHO a more equitable way of evaluating prior season performance. And I like Guru's post #24... essentially 7 RIFC returnees (incl. Guru), 6 from AAA, and 1 from AA.
Does 6 from AAA necessarily mean 3 from each league, or could it conceivably be a 4-2 combo? Just curious.
37
I_AM_CANADIAN
ID: 056240 Mon, Jul 02, 2007, 20:30
Thought it might be a good idea to give this thread a bump...
38
Guru
ID: 330592710 Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 17:08
I haven't looked at this since the end of last season, but I'll try to work it out during the All Star break.
39
Building 7
ID: 571192610 Thu, Jul 12, 2007, 21:48
Greybear ID: 127142215 under the team name Vicious Goats won our RIFC AA playoffs last year.
Yeah, it's ok Building 7... She was included in the invite email to the RIFC from 3 days ago.
For those of you who may be interested; the first grouping of invites, are the following:
Guru I AM CANADIAN s_R Beezer Leggestand Goatlocker youngroman bmd Holt's Hillbilly Army Smith32 CowboysHomer Slackjawed Yokels Nerfherders Greybear
Rate this thread:
If you wish, you may rate this thread on scale of 1-5. Ratings should indicate how valuable or interesting you believe this thread would be to other users of this forum. A '5' means that this thread is a 'must read'. A '1' means that this is a complete waste of time.
If you have previously rated this thread, rating it again will delete your previous rating.
If you do not want to rate this thread, but want to see how others have rated it, then click the button without entering a rating, or else click here.