| 0 |
Subject: Martyball no more in SD
Posted by: Kyle
- [52753312] Mon, Feb 12, 2007, 21:48
Schottenheimer Fired I would have thought they would do this before they let Wade Phillips leave. |
| 1 | The Beezer
Leader
ID: 191202817
Mon, Feb 12, 2007, 22:44
|
Wow. When did the NFL turn into international soccer?
|
| 2 | bibA
Leader
ID: 261028117
Mon, Feb 12, 2007, 22:51
|
Schottenheimer has been at odds with Smith since the 2005 season, apparently over personnel decisions by the GM.
Anyone have any info as to some of the specifics re these personnel decisions? It would be interesting to judge which of the two seemed to be on the best path.
|
| 3 | TB
Sherpa
ID: 031811922
Mon, Feb 12, 2007, 23:51
|
I just saw this on the news and was shocked. Losing both their offense coordinator and defensive coordinator in the same off-season (along with a couple more assistant coaches) seemed bad enough, but after reading the story I guess it makes some sense. Schottenheimer wouldn't agree to an extension, didn't get along with the GM, and if you have to rebuild the coaching staff you might as well bring someone in who can shape his own staff and who is going to stick around for a while.
Yeah, that still sounds weak to me. I remain shocked. The timing of it, after every other vacant head-coaching position has been filled, is questionable as well. I wonder if the Cowboys would have considered him? He is at least twice the coach of Phillips. I can't stand Schottenheimer and am glad to see he isn't coaching in the AFC West any longer, but I won't deny that he is a great coach. Losing play-off games has more to do with the players not performing than the head coach who's led his team to 35 wins the last three years and an overall record of 200-126-1.
|
| 4 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Tue, Feb 13, 2007, 01:34
|
According to John Clayton...
Schottenheimer is one of the great turnaround coaches in the history of the league. He's been successful in every stop as a head coach. Smith has quickly proven to be one of the shrewdest personnel minds in the game. When Eli Manning balked at coming to San Diego, Spanos traded him to the Giants and ended up with three Pro Bowl players -- Shawne Merriman, Philip Rivers and Nate Kaeding.
|
| 5 | KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 15023167
Tue, Feb 13, 2007, 08:52
|
Let me get this right. Players are supposed to set aside their egos for the betterment of the team, but Schotty and the GM couldn't get along despite having personnel that took the team to a 14-2 record?
Seems to me that they both deserved this.
|
| 6 | Electroman
ID: 44651412
Tue, Feb 13, 2007, 10:30
|
Seems like Spanos fired him when there were no other jobs left on purpose. He would have to have someone in mind to take over right away. A guy that loves Southern California. Someone with some NFL experience. USC seems like it could be sanctioned, so there would be no National Championship hope. Maybe Carroll leaves USC in a mess to go to a team that is primed to win a Super Bowl
|
| 7 | mjd
Sustainer
ID: 501381415
Tue, Feb 13, 2007, 11:35
|
#5, I think once free agency and the draft is over Smith will get the heave ho. Over/under is May 15.
|
| 8 | barilko6
ID: 20118811
Tue, Feb 13, 2007, 11:38
|
Would Jimmy Johnson come back? This might be the perfect spot for a return....hmm...
|
| 9 | GoatLocker
Sustainer
ID: 060151121
Tue, Feb 13, 2007, 12:25
|
Smith isn't going anywhere.
The Spano's love him.
Haven't had a chance to find out what the rumors are out of San Diego.
Will be home from vacation Saturday or Sunday and will need to figure out what is up.
Cliff
|
| 10 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Tue, Feb 13, 2007, 12:40
|
I agree with GL. Spano already made his choice. Schott ahs been sucessful everywhere he's been and led his team to 14 wins this year and he gets fired. No way Smith is ousted.
|
| 11 | GoatLocker
Sustainer
ID: 060151121
Wed, Feb 14, 2007, 00:13
|
San Diego to Interview Four
Not sure about any fo them.
Not a Norv Turner fan.
Think Singletary might be the best bet.
Cliff
|
| 12 | Electroman
ID: 44651412
Mon, Feb 19, 2007, 15:01
|
Looks like Norv Turner is the man
|
| 13 | KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 15023167
Mon, Feb 19, 2007, 16:03
|
Apparently a 58-82-1 regular season record and an appearance in 2 playoff games (1-1) are considered positives on a head football coach's resume.
It's the only reason I can fathom Turner getting another NFL coaching position.
One might begin to think that NFL owners are looking for a way to shoot themselves in the foot given the propensity for denying the new guys and recycling the old guys.
|
| 14 | Kyle
ID: 52753312
Mon, Feb 19, 2007, 16:10
|
I guess they like Turner's playoff record better than Marty's? This hiring does not make sense, since I believe a monkey could probably coach this offense. I would think they would want to go defensive minded. I guess Spano wanted to go with someone they knew. Now who is Norv going to get to coach the Offense and Defense? Rivera has yet to be resigned by the Bears and I believe his contract is up.
|
| 15 | Mike D
Leader
ID: 041831612
Mon, Feb 19, 2007, 16:18
|
Can't say it any better than KKB. So sick of hirings like this across the big sports. What has Turner done to deserve this?? If I was a Charger fan, I'd be pissed.
|
| 16 | Electroman
ID: 44651412
Mon, Feb 19, 2007, 16:35
|
The only thing I can think of is that they want Philip Rivers coached up. Ted Cottrell is apparently the leading candidate to coach the D.
|
| 17 | TB
Sherpa
ID: 031811922
Mon, Feb 19, 2007, 17:07
|
I'm not a Norv Turner fan, but it's not like he's ever coached a good team. He took over crappy 4-12 teams in both Washington and Oakland. Neither had a good defense or offense. He seemed to be taking Washington in the right direction and that was still with crappy QB's and a crappy defense. If he lasts more than one season, he's bound to do a much better job with a talented SD team.
|
| 18 | mjd
Sustainer
ID: 501381415
Mon, Feb 19, 2007, 18:10
|
Not a Norv fan either, but he did install the current Chargers offense as OC in 2001. I didn't like it at first, but the more I read/hear about it, the more it makes sense.
They just better have hired the right DC or they'll be in serious trouble.
|
| 19 | Mike D
Leader
ID: 041831612
Mon, Feb 19, 2007, 18:13
|
That's just it. Turner made his name as an OC (Dallas). In the head job, he's not impressed. He rotated the crap out of QBs, was involved in poor drafts, and made simple HCing errors. Can't anyone recall the shots of his perplexed face on the sidelines in Washington and Oakland? I'm getting nauseous just thinking about it.
|
| 20 | Electroman
ID: 44651412
Mon, Feb 19, 2007, 18:55
|
Rivera has yet to be resigned by the Bears and I believe his contract is up.
Apparently, the Bears are not going to renew the contract of Rivera. Would it be hard for him to learn the 3-4 defense?
|
| 21 | Seattle Zen
ID: 46315247
Mon, Feb 19, 2007, 21:09
|
The Mannings were right.
|
| 22 | GoatLocker
Sustainer
ID: 060151121
Mon, Feb 19, 2007, 21:32
|
Not happy with the move, but will give them the benefit of the doubt.
I really do like the Ted Cottrel move though.
Guess we will just have to wait and see.
Could work out well with Turner ot assist Rivers now.
Cliff
|
| 23 | Electroman
ID: 44651412
Mon, Feb 19, 2007, 22:49
|
Rivera has been hired to coach the LB in SD.
|
| 24 | KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 15023167
Tue, Feb 20, 2007, 09:26
|
I once heard a commentator (a former player, IIRC) make the statement that coordinators call the plays and head coaches manage the game. I can't say I disagree with that assessment. And given that assessment, being a good coordinator has nothing to do with being a good head coach.
I may be great at my job, but that doesn't mean I can manage 10 of me. But this is the exact type of mindset the NFL has as it constantly tries to turn coordinators into head coaches. Sometimes it works, but often times it seems like it fails miserably. Over and over and over again.
As for Turner turning around WAS, I just don't see it. I'll let him punt his first season, but then it's just a model of inconsistency. 6 wins, followed by 9, then 8, then back to 6, then up to 10, then down to 7. I don't see this as turning a team around. Turning around a team should involve being at or above .500 on a consistent basis. Otherwise, you're just average and nobody "turns around" to be average.
Turning a team around is Tony Dungy with the Bucs, taking them from perennial loser to a team that won 10, 8, 11, 10, and 9 games. And he turned a hugely inconsistent IND into a perennial double-digit win team. THAT's turning a team around.
Don't confuse it with Turnering a team, which is what's going to happen to SDG. ;)
|
| 25 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Wed, Feb 21, 2007, 17:00
|
I'm tired of the recycled headd coach failures like Norv. Would rather try someone who has potential like a Rivera, etc. that has promise. Of course if they get it before they are ready that could be career suicide--nah that would help as he would get more chances as a "Proven" head coach no matter what his record or ability actually was! ;)
|
| 26 | Boxman
ID: 47922511
Wed, Feb 21, 2007, 17:05
|
I think at this point Rivera should look at coaching a college team. I'm sure his heart is in the NFL, but he is one hell of a defensive coordinator and I don't know how long one man can get passed over by the Norv Turners and Wade Phillips' of the world and just take it.
|
| 27 | Electroman
ID: 44651412
Wed, Feb 21, 2007, 18:11
|
I get the feeling there were just a little too many questions about Rivera. Could he coach the 3-4, probably, but would you want him too learn a new scheme on the job? Coaching in SD will help him to learn the scheme, and add to his resume. Also, I have read that people feel that it is Lovie Smith's defense in Chicago, not his. Seems that he is the defensive version of Russ Grimm, a lot of interviews, yet still waiting.
|
| 28 | KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 354152921
Wed, Feb 21, 2007, 20:36
|
What do defensive coordinators do if they don't coordinate the defense? And in that case, what does it matter how well he can coach the 3-4 if he's going to have a defensive coordinator to do that? And, if it is Lovie's defense in Chicago, that just adds to the appeal for Rivera because it would mean he could coach someone else's scheme VERY well, again meaning it wouldn't matter if the 3-4 were in place or not.
Personally, I just don't see how you look at a guy who has had very clear success and give him a chance. Norv's had his chance and has failed. Give another guy a chance.
|
| 29 | TB
Sherpa
ID: 031811922
Wed, Feb 21, 2007, 23:35
|
As for Turner turning around WAS, I just don't see it. I'll let him punt his first season, but then it's just a model of inconsistency. 6 wins, followed by 9, then 8, then back to 6, then up to 10, then down to 7. I don't see this as turning a team around. Turning around a team should involve being at or above .500 on a consistent basis. Otherwise, you're just average and nobody "turns around" to be average.
I am going to start this off again by saying I am not a Norv Turner fan. I don't know if he has what it takes to be a head coach, but I do know that he did some great things with the Cowboy offense and he did some good things with the Redskin offense once he got some players.
Obviously, just trying to look at the raw number of wins for the Redskins isn't going to give you a clear idea of what he accomplished. For the record, I never said turned around, just headed in the right direction. If we look at the Redskins roster from 91-93 we see some familiar names. Rypien, Byner, Clark, Monk, and Sanders. Okay, Clark left after the 92 season, but we are talking about the core offensive players that went 14-2 in '91 and won the Superbowl. Gibbs packed it in after the 92 season and then Pettibone left after one miserable 4-12 season. Enter Turner. None of the five players listed above are with the team anymore, new scheme, and a rookie QB drafted to start.
3-13 in his first year with Heath Shuler getting half the playing time while John Friesz and Gus Frerotte split the remaining half. The only good veteran on the offense was FA Henry Ellard. The infamous hogs-line was getting old or gone, it was rebuilding time. I don't know how much input Turner got in the draft, but let's just say that the Skins haven't been one of the better drafting teams in a long time. Stephen Davis in 96 and Champ Bailey in 99 are the only two names that really stand out to me as solid picks during the Turner era.
On to season two where they double their wins and go 6-10. This is with Shuler and Frerotte at the helm. I forgot to mention that when he took over the team they had the 25th ranked offense and 23rd ranked defense in the league. The 94 skins who went 3-13 improved to the 13th ranked offense but had the dead last defense at 28th. 95 saw a slight dip in the offense to 18th and the defense rise to 21st (30 teams now).
1996 comes around and the team improves again by three more games. Has their first winning record since Gibbs left and has the 8th ranked offense in the league, 13th ranked defense, and this is with Gus Frerotte as the QB. Credit to Terry Allen for having a great season and Henry Ellard being solid on offense.
1997, the beginning of the Snyder era, didn't see any improvement other than finishing second in the NFC East instead of third. Frerotte has shown he isn't the answer by now. Terry Allen is splitting carries with Stephen Davis. Ellard is on his last legs and has about the same production as Leslie Shepherd and Michael Westbrook. The offense is ranked 15th and defense 9th. Apparently, Darrell Green is 78 years old and playing like a 20 year old still. =)
1998 was a tough year. Had to take a step back to move forward. Trent Green who had one whole pass attempt previously, is named the starter and the team goes 6-10. This was after starting off 0-7, though, so they finished the season going 6-3. The defense got old very quickly and the team struggled everywhere. Heck, they had three kickers that season who managed to go 13 for 23 on field goals. Offense was ranked 17th and defense was ranked 28th.
1999 the team improves to 10-6 and wins a wildcard game. The offense is ranked 2nd of 31 teams and the defense is 24th. Mike Nolan, the current HC of the 49ers, leaves the team after serving as defensive coordinator for the past three years. I only mention this because I ran across it as I was collecting data and here we are several years later and Turner was a coordinator under Nolan. Also because Nolan didn't have the same success as he did with the Giants and later on with Baltimore, but that's because of the players. No matter how great a coach is, you have to have good players to be better than average.
Turner was fired in 2000 after a 7-6 start. That was after starting 6-2 and then 7-4. They lost some close games and maybe Snyder just wanted to put his own stamp on the team. I dunno, but looking deeper at personnel and the numbers, it did look like he was taking the team in the right direction. Very debatable.
|
| 30 | Mike D
Leader
ID: 041831612
Wed, Feb 21, 2007, 23:44
|
Turner sucks.
;)
|
| 31 | Motley Crue
Dude
ID: 439372011
Wed, Feb 21, 2007, 23:53
|
It's pretty tough to improve on 14-2.
I think the Chargers goal for next season should be to win the AFC West, and probably get a first round bye. Anything beyond that is unreasonable. They basically have to take a step back from 14-2. They're not going to go undefeated, and having to play Indy, New England, and Baltimore, along with Denver and KC twice each [sorry TB ; )] I don't see them going 15-1.
|
| 32 | TB
Sherpa
ID: 031811922
Thu, Feb 22, 2007, 00:25
|
Thanks for the laugh, Mike. I agree, but things are slow yada yada.
I also agree with you Motley One. Chargers are going to take a step back. Their talent will be the same, but the coaching overhaul and tougher schedule is going to hurt. You forgot to add Chicago and Jacksonville to that list. I also happen to think the Raiders and Titans will both be better teams next year. I wouldn't be surprised to see them fall to 10-6 or maybe even worse.
|
| 33 | The Beezer
Leader
ID: 191202817
Thu, Feb 22, 2007, 00:29
|
To add to the step back comments above, you also have to figure that injuries will likely be more of a factor than they were this year (it seems they were a bit lucky in this regard).
|
| 34 | KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 15023167
Thu, Feb 22, 2007, 09:36
|
TB, as I read your post, I couldn't help but think, "Hey, he's a great offensive coordinator." Clearly, he's done a lot with a little with offenses. Congrats to him! But, being a head coach is managing both sides of the ball and making sure you're input is heard come draft time. If you need X, Y, and Z, then you need to make sure your front office knows you need X, Y, and Z, not F, F, and G.
I have no problems with Turner as an offensive coordinator. I just don't think he has what it takes to be a head coach. I'm not saying it won't happen, but I'd be surprised to see SDG win more than 8 games next year. Considering the talent on that team, even with a tougher schedule, that's saying a lot and you know the fans aren't going to want to hear the excuses.
Hey, if Tony Dungy can keep his team in double-digit wins every season, why not Turner in SDG? Well, other than the fact that it's Turner. ;)
|
| 35 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Thu, Feb 22, 2007, 12:16
|
Dungy got fired because his team wasn't taking the next step to win the Super Bowl. Apparently it worked as Gruden completed Dungy's mission. But I'm wondering if Dungy wouldn't have won it that next year too? All I know is that I was shocked about the speculation and what TB paid to get Gruden and remove a TRULY PROVEN coach who had turned around a bottom team. No wonder Irsay was on the phone with Dungy as soon as news broke that TB fired him.
I think SD is good enough to make the playoffs despite Turner, but you're fooling yourselves if you think they will repeat a 14-2 record. 10-6 anyone?
|
| 36 | KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 15023167
Thu, Feb 22, 2007, 13:30
|
Ref, I often wonder if Dungy wouldn't have won the Super Bowl with TB as well. It's clear that Gruden isn't doing much to get them back to the Super Bowl, so you have to think that it was Dungy's team that won.
Oh well, I'm sure Peyton's okay with how it all played out. ;)
|
| 37 | Boxman
ID: 47922511
Thu, Feb 22, 2007, 13:35
|
I don't know if he has what it takes to be a head coach, but I do know that he did some great things with the Cowboy offense
Troy Aikman - HOF'er
Emmitt Smith - HOF'er
Moose Johnston - Outstanding FB.
Jay Novacek - Upper tier TE. Probably because of the other offensive options.
Michael Irvin - HOF'er
Alvin Harper - Serious deep threat.
The Entire Offensive Line (which had multiple repeat Pro Bowlers) will most likely produce a couple HOF'ers by the time it's all said and done.
probably had A LOT more to do with the Cowboys success offensively than Turner ever did.
|
| 38 | TB
Sherpa
ID: 031811922
Thu, Feb 22, 2007, 13:37
|
Hey, if Tony Dungy can keep his team in double-digit wins every season, why not Turner in SDG? Well, other than the fact that it's Turner. ;)
I am a big Tony Dungy fan. He is a nice guy and I was happy to see him win the Superbowl this year. Obviously, he's had a lot more overall success than Turner, but we can look deeper at his numbers too. He gets a lot of credit for turning Tampa around, but how many people realize he inherited the core of that defense? Sapp, Brooks, Nickerson, and Lynch were all brought in when Wyche was coach, not Dungy. The 1995 bucks had improved to the 13th ranked defense in the league before Dungy took over in 1996. They went on to have the 9th, 2nd, 5th, 3rd, 7th, and 8th ranked defenses under Dungy. The Buc's offense is a different story and shows quite a bit of inconsistancy: 30th, 24th, 18th, 27th, 7th, and 15th.
Then he takes over the Colts who already have Manning, Harrison, Wayne, and Edge. The previous three seasons the Colts have either the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th ranked offense in the league and they are a team that has won 6, 10, and 13 games, respectively. I don't want to take away from what Dungy has accomplished, but Turner taking over SD will provide a better comparison to Dungy's success than his previous stops with Washington and Oakland. If he bombs, then it would be hard to argue that he is HC worthy. If he is still around in a couple years and the team is getting double-digit wins then maybe we realize that it's more about the situation/players and less about one man's ability.
|
| 39 | TB
Sherpa
ID: 031811922
Thu, Feb 22, 2007, 13:50
|
Boxman, pasting this from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norv_Turner.
Turner was the offensive coordinator with the Dallas Cowboys on Jimmy Johnson's staff when Dallas won back to back Super Bowls in 1992 and 1993. Turner got much of the credit for not only their success, but for helping shape quarterback Troy Aikman into a Hall of Fame player. However, he was also labeled as a problem. After Barry Switzer's firing following the successful 1997 campaign, QB Troy Aikman made many urgent demands that Turner be named head coach. When Chan Gailey was named coach, Aikman was famously unhappy, stating "They're screwing this team up".
I am only playing devil's advocate here, but how can we give one coach credit (Dungy) for what his players accomplished, but not the other? If Dallas doesn't win those superbowls in 92 and 93, neither Aikman or Irvin would be in the HOF, at least not before other deserving players who have better stats, but less SB wins. But I do agree that the players have a lot more to do with any team success than the coaches. They also have a lot more to do with team failures, hence Turner's crappy years in Oakland and Washington.
|
| 40 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Fri, Feb 23, 2007, 01:21
|
The head coach manages all facets of the game plan. He decides what kind of Offense and Defense he wants to run and hires the people to make those work. Dungy has shown he can turn around a franchise. Turner hasn't been able to turn around a franchise. I think he will finally succeed this time in doing just that! Hell, I could turn around a franchise that was 14-2!!! When they start losing again with Turner in the next couple years, everyone will know what's up.
|
| Rate this thread: | If you wish, you may rate this thread on scale of 1-5. Ratings should indicate how valuable or interesting you believe this thread would be to other users of this forum. A '5' means that this thread is a 'must read'. A '1' means that this is a complete waste of time. If you have previously rated this thread, rating it again will delete your previous rating. If you do not want to rate this thread, but want to see how others have rated it, then click the button without entering a rating, or else click here. |
|
|
|
Post a reply to this message: (But first, how about checking out this sponsor?)
|
|