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0 Subject: Indy Cheating Thread

Posted by: barilko6
- [52102788] Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 09:30

I couldn't find the Indy cheating thread anywhere, the one that talked about them pumping in crowd noise against the Pats. Was it deleted???

Anyways...

Here is more fuel for the controversy!!!
1barilko6
      ID: 52102788
      Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 09:35
Now mind you, that article is coming out of Boston, so you might need to take it with 4 grains of salt.
2Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 09:35
Its not illegal to add artificial crowd noise to the PA system. Just like it isn't illegal to play music the system. You just can't do it while the other team has the ball with the clock running.
3barilko6
      ID: 52102788
      Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 09:37
Umm...did you even attempt to read the article?
4Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 09:41
Yes, barilko6. I read it.
5barilko6
      ID: 52102788
      Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 09:45
Ok, just wasn't sure how your original post had anything to do with what they were talking about in the article. My bad.
6Frick
      Donor
      ID: 3410101718
      Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 09:55
NFL.com

So an unnamed security guard is a legitimate source of information?

7Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 09:57
I did just watch the interview, however. There, Foley said the crowd noise was most deafening during Pats offensive plays. This wasn't said in the article, which only stated that it was loudest while the Pats had the ball.

Without more to go on, this is pointless. You have a WBZ (Boston area CBS) photographer who is an admitted Pats fan citing a security guard's claim that crowd noise is pumped into the PA system. We have no clue about how the guard claims to know this. And even if he's right, we have no way of knowing whether the Colts do this while the clock is running, only an account from this Pats fan who suggested the Pats offense was having trouble dealing with the noise early in the game.
8WiddleAvi
      ID: 25102616
      Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 10:01
I work at all Steeler Games and wonder how a security guard would have this information. Sounds like a load of crap to me.
9KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 15023167
      Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 10:47
So an unnamed security guard is a legitimate source of information?

When you're desperate to try to prove a point, yes.

The article uses the words "allegedly" and "unidentified" for it's main point. It uses hearsay as it's main source. And the reporter used a co-worker as a subject expert.

Sounds like something more fit for Star or National Enquirer than a supposedly legitimate news source.

Maybe it's just been a slow news week for New England and they have to grasp onto something to report on.
10Slizz
      ID: 21733916
      Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 11:03
Sorry Barliko, I deleted the thread. Since the case was closed, and nobody posted on it for two days, I figured it served no use as an inactive post. Guess its my OCD for tidyness :)

Its not illegal to add artificial crowd noise to the PA system. Just like it isn't illegal to play music the system. You just can't do it while the other team has the ball with the clock running.

MITH, you are 100% incorrect that it is legal/ok to pump in crowd noise.

From the New York Times:

"Paul Tagliabue recently issued a memo saying teams could lose draft picks if they enhance stadium noise."

The thing is barliko, almost EVERY dome team does it. Granted MITH was spot on with the television communications system in the previous thread, it still doesnt change the fact that they probably do it.

Jeremy Green, son of ex-Vikings coach Dennis Green, confirmed that the Vikings did it during his days there...sure he backtracked on that statement the next day b/c of the unwanted publicity it probably brought his father, but i'm just saying where there's smoke, there's fire :)
11Frick
      Donor
      ID: 3410101718
      Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 11:26
If there's smoke there's fire. So is there truth that the Patriot had defensive players with radio helmets in the past.


I've been to numerous events at the RCA dome, I think I've had a headache when I've left all of them. Including a small school high school football game that probably had less than 10,000 people watching it. I've been there for the IU/KY basketball games when the block off half of the building. It is still very, very loud. I haven't been to a Colts game in the past 5 years when they have been very good so I can only imagine how loud it could be.

I was lucky enough to go to the Carrier Dome to watch a Michigan/Syracuse football game, my ears were ringing when we left. We left early and when Syracuse ended winning the game late, and we could hear the crowd noise outside, I can't imagine how loud it was inside.

I know that in the past reporters have shown decibal machines at stadiums to show how loud it can get. When you put a roof on a stadium, and it contains the sound, wouldn't it naturally seem much louder.

As for Bob Kraft's son saying that he heard the odd noise, was he sitting in the luxury box with the windows closed watching and listening to the game on the CC TV?
12barilko6
      ID: 1949205
      Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 11:45
I agreed that the article's source was something to be considered, I just included this thread as something that I found really funny, and something that will never seem to go away in Pats land.
13Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 11:59
Slizz
MITH, you are 100% incorrect that it is legal/ok to pump in crowd noise.

You're NYT paraphrase of Commissioner Tagliabue does not make confirm that it is ilegal to play artificial crowd noise to the stadium speakers. I'll stick with the official rule as posted in the other thread until something more convincing than that is presented.
14KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 15023167
      Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 12:07
"Paul Tagliabue recently issued a memo saying teams could lose draft picks if they enhance stadium noise."

So what is music considered? Isn't that an enhancement of the noise that is naturally occurring? And if you can pump music through your PA system at certain times, why not crowd noise? Technically, it's all just noise, right? If the crowd starts chanting "We Will Rock You," can they pump that back through the PA system? How would that be different than playing the actual song just as loud?

By the way, I've been at a number of Auburn home games where I felt like I was going to lose my hearing. And that's an OPEN stadium with 85,000+ fans. I've even felt the stadium rumble under my feet a couple of times after a game-changing play against a heated rival (like Alabama). Talk about freaking you out!

The problem, as I see it, is that people who have never experienced this kind of thing just automatically think it can't be real. These are the same people who say stupid things like, "a loss today would do them no good" and "the key to victory is going to be keeping their opponent out of the end zone and finding a way on offense to score touchdowns." They THINK they know what's going on and they THINK they've got a scoop, but in the end, they're just lame reporters trying to fill space and meet a deadline.
15Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 13:20
It is so loud in the RCA Dome that the NFL has been contacted to investigate this several times and every single time they've investigated, they have fully exonerated the Colts. The stadium is just very loud.

The Pacers new facility isn't very loud as it has all kinds of acoustic sound absorbers for concerts etc. that help prevent echoes and the like. MSA, their old facility, was one of the loudest in the league and when they added the race car sounds on the PA, it was deafening. In fact, because of thta, the NBA enacted a rule saying no one could play music, etc. while the other team had the ball.

I'm guessing the new Colts facility won't be loud at all in comparison and no one will accuse them of anything of the like.
16sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 13:30
The problem, as I see it, is that people who have never experienced this kind of thing just automatically think it can't be real.

Those same people, had their kids hold a slumber party in their basements have they? 12 8 yr old girls, can make one HELL of a lot of racket. Now, multiply that nr by 7,000 and add beer.

:)
17sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 13:30
...Those same people, had their kids hold...

Those same people,have never had their kids hold...


my bad
18Slizz
      ID: 21733916
      Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 13:37
koala: music would not enhance stadium noise. I am trying to find the specific rule...but cant find a rulebook other then the generic one on nfl.com/rulebook.

It wouldnt surprise me one bit if a defender had a helmet with radio communication on. I think there should be one to prevent any collusion going forward. Give it a trial period and if it doesnt work and hurts the on-field product more then it helps, get rid of it.
19KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 15023167
      Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 13:40
music would not enhance stadium noise

Really? I'd love to read an explanation that describes how added noise (in the form of music) does not enhance existing noise.
20Slizz
      ID: 21733916
      Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 15:23
Stadium Noise = Crowd Noise.

Music = in b/w plays and on time outs. cuts off during play.

Thats about as blunt of an explanation I can give :)
21KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 15023167
      Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 15:56
Time for the simplified version of what I (and I believe MITH) are saying...

1. Is it against the rules to pump crowd noise through the PA system when music is allowed?

2. If Indy does pump crowd noise through the PA system, are they doing it at a time when it is not allowed?

If the answer to #1 is Yes, then #2 is moot. However, if the answer to #1 is No (which my inclination would be that it is), then the answer to #2 becomes a point of omission with regards to the article.

In other words, someone could say, "I know John Doe uses the carpool lane without having the required minimum of one passenger." But, if John Doe is using the carpool lane at a time when it's open to anybody (i.e., midnight) or if he has a hybrid car exemption, then he's doing nothing wrong. But that doesn't make a good story, does it?
22Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 16:22
KKB, agreed.

Also, I don't know at all that "stadium noise" only and specifically means "crowd noise" in every discussion of rules on the topic. Slizz, I think you've been going on that assuption through this discussion and I don't think it's well founded. I'll remind you entered a rather sensitive thread about the recent murder of a family member of this forum to preach about such unfounded assumptions in defense of the suspect/defendant.

As far as I know it is specifically prohibited to send the sound of a cheering crowd to stadium speakers at any time during a game.
23Frick
      Donor
      ID: 3410101718
      Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 17:56
The NFL has never released to the public the official rule book. It is part of the constant problem with everyone stating what the rule is. It's what they think the rule book says, the NFL will occasionally release a portion of the rule book (the tuck game), but the public does not have a full copy.


Ref, I agree Conseco while a great place to watch a game feels much more commercial than MSA ever did. MSA was intense and reminded me of small high school stadiums that were packed to the rafters. Conseco looks like a small gym on steroids, but it doesn't have the right atmosphere. It has a good and fun atmosphere, but it isn't as intense.
24WiddleAvi
      ID: 25102616
      Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 18:28
Here is a link about sound rules:

NFL Rules on Sound

While the play clock is running they cannot use the speakers for noise.
25Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 19:18
I botched the last sentence of post 22. Meant to say the opposite.
26rockafellerskank
      Dude
      ID: 27652109
      Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 23:05
RE: #22

I'll remind you entered a rather sensitive thread about the recent murder of a family member of this forum to preach about such unfounded assumptions in defense of the suspect/defendant.


I've never seen them in the same room, but MITH, are you saying Slizz and skids4 are the same poster?
27RecycledSpinalFluid
      Dude
      ID: 204401122
      Fri, Nov 09, 2007, 00:20
slizz and skids4 are different posters. Interesting to see that skids4 is posting out of Tukwila, which is a Seattle burb (interesting in relation to the other thread, not here.)
28Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Nov 09, 2007, 08:21
That's my mistake. Both posters are fairly new to me and I confused them. Apologies.
29Slizz
      ID: 21733916
      Fri, Nov 09, 2007, 12:25
That is a pretty bold accusation to throw around. 1st off, what does bringing up someones heartaches & personal problems have to do with the Colts possibly cheating by pumping in noise through the PA systems anyways? Either way, it was totally out of bounds to me. Now that i've said my two cents, apology accepted.

RE: 24

I think that sums up what i was trying to articulate about my interperation of stadium noise...obviously the quote from Tags was very general, but I think most would assume that would be crowd noise in which he was referring to.
30Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Nov 09, 2007, 12:34
I don't see how it sums up your opinion at all.

From the link:
(1) Club-Controlled Sound: The home club does not have the prerogative to decide if such sound hampers signal calling. While spontaneous crowd noises may be beyond immediate control, noise of any kind (music, horns, gongs, drums, etc.) that is under club control must cease when the play clock (40 or 25 second) is running and the visiting team is in possession of the ball. Flagrant attempts by cheerleaders, mascots or the public-address system to encourage crowd noise for the purpose of disrupting the visiting team's offense while the play clock is running is prohibited. The use of noise meters or such messages as "Noise!," "Let's hear it!," "Raise the Roof," "Let's go Crazy," "Pump it up," "12th Man" are prohibited at any time during the game. These examples are not limited to the foregoing, but also would include similar messages that encourage crowds to make random noise in order to disrupt the opposition. The prohibitions specified in this section also apply during kicking plays.

Exception: Any conventional cheerleader or mascot actions or the use of the scoreboard or message board for acceptable cheers such as "Defense!" and "Push 'em back!" must be stopped when the huddle breaks and/or the offensive team moves to the line of scrimmage.


(4) Field-Level Speakers: The number of field-level speakers must be limited to a maximum of four. They must be placed between the goal lines and the 20-yard lines, and be pointed away from the bench area and the playing field. All sound from such speakers must cease when play clock starts for the visiting team's possession.
Unless you want to make a case that sending crowd noise to stadium speakers included in the clause for "messages" such as "raise the roof," "Let's go Crazy," "Pump it up," "12th Man" or a noise meter (all of which I believe are visual messages displayed on a stadium screen) I don't see anything in there to support you at all.
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