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Subject: Myth of Tony Dungy's coaching greatness?
Posted by: Electroman
- [565182111] Thu, Jan 28, 2010, 09:08
This is not an attack on the man Tony Dungy, he has a lot of respect from a lot of people, including me. It is more towards his coaching. This year will be the second time that a coach takes over from him, and leads basically the same team to the Super Bowl. One won, and I have a feeling that the second one will also. I just get the feeling that great is thrown out way too often, and that when we look at the facts, Dungy may not rank with the greats, but he is a good coach, with a ring.
Here are his coaching stats:
Reg. Season- 139-69
Playoffs- 9-10, 1 SB(6 times he was 1 and done)
People were expecting a decline with the Colts this year, and they improved based on results so far. I have just thought about this the last few days, and wondered your opinion on it. |
| 1 | Razor
ID: 57854118
Thu, Jan 28, 2010, 09:29
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Maybe he was replaced by fine coaches. And certainly he deserves a lot of credit for building teams that are capable of winning it all even after he is gone. The defense that lifted Tampa Bay to the title last decade was built on Dungy's watch, not Kiffin's. Similarly, the high flying Colts have been a perennial Super Bowl contender once Dungy shored up the defense.
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| 2 | Texas Flood
ID: 7101698
Thu, Jan 28, 2010, 09:31
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Vince Lombardi was great, George Halas was great, Don Shula Was
Great, Tom Landry Great, Chuck Noll great, Bill Walsh great.
Dungy good, very good even excellent but far from great.
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| 3 | Razor
ID: 57854118
Thu, Jan 28, 2010, 09:36
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And if Dungy builds a 3rd Super Bowl contender?
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| 4 | TB
ID: 59043288
Thu, Jan 28, 2010, 09:45
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Posting this from my phone, so apologies in advance if format is whack or spelling atrocious. I certainly don't think he belongs with the same list of greats listed in the post above, but agree with Razor in that I think having coaches be able to come in after him and win with his players and systems in place is somewhat of a testament to the foundation he helped build with the team. With that said, any coach was going to come in and be successful with P Manning running that current offense.
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| 5 | WiddleAvi
ID: 44025819
Thu, Jan 28, 2010, 10:28
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Just look at what happened in Tampa a couple years removed from Dungy. Also keep in mind that The current colts coach was tutored by Dungy and is probablly running things the same way Dungy did.
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| 6 | Electroman
ID: 565182111
Thu, Jan 28, 2010, 11:04
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You said the key word, contender, not so much champs. If I ran a team, I would give him a blank check and ask him to fill a Parcell, Holmgren type role. But as a head coach, he'll take you to the dance, but if you want to get lucky, better leave with someone else.
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| 7 | Frick
ID: 9103036
Thu, Jan 28, 2010, 12:01
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As a Colts fan the biggest change I've noticed this year is the attitude that the team is playing to win, not playing not to lose.
If the Colts win the coin flip, they take the ball. Under Dungy they would defer to the 2nd half.
Dungy rarely used blitzes, this year the Colt's have blitzed twice as much, and were still one of the least blitzing teams.
Manning has been an absolute assassin in the last 2 minutes of the first half this year. Before the Colts were to often complacent to head the locker room without scoring before the half, knowing they were going to get the ball to start the 2nd half.
Those are some of the biggest differences I've noticed.
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| 8 | weykool
ID: 14012812
Thu, Jan 28, 2010, 13:01
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I do think Dungy is a great coach.
Is he as great as the list that TF posted?
Probably not.....but very close.
The initial premise that the colts are winning after he left and therefore detracts from him as a coach is completely off base.
A great coach is more than what he does on sunday afternoon.
He surrounds himself with talented players and coaches and then allows them enough freedom to reach their potential.
If the Colts win another SB and have another good season in 2010 it will only elevate Dungy's greatness...not diminish it.
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| 9 | Razor
ID: 57854118
Thu, Jan 28, 2010, 13:27
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But as a head coach, he'll take you to the dance, but if you want to get lucky, better leave with someone else.
Outside of Belichick, what other current head coaches have "gotten lucky" more than once? Mike Shanahan did it with a team full of players juicing. That's the only other name that comes to mind.
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| 10 | Electroman
ID: 565182111
Thu, Jan 28, 2010, 14:02
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My point is that great is thrown out way too much. Razor makes a point, outside of Belichick, who else has won more than one SB? Dungy is a good coach like Ried, Fisher and other good coaches of our generation.
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| 11 | chode
ID: 4744089
Thu, Jan 28, 2010, 14:40
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Jeff Fisher, he of exactly *6* winning seasons in 16. Talk about someone having a reputation that simply doesn't match his on-field results ...
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| 12 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 550421116
Thu, Jan 28, 2010, 16:34
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Heard Dungy the other night say if he had the #1 pick in the upcoming draft he would draft Tebow...
Maybe it is just talk...but that sort of lunacy makes me question how good he really is/was...
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| 13 | RecycledSpinalFluid
Dude
ID: 204401122
Thu, Jan 28, 2010, 18:42
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He must have been advising the UFL's Florida Tuskers on who to draft.
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| 14 | Mötley Crüe
ID: 6028177
Thu, Jan 28, 2010, 20:16
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Good thread. This forum could use more posts like this one.
I think Dungy's personality sort of got inflated by the media (which is ironic because he's about as laid back as an NFL coach can be). I also think he was especially celebrated as one of the first very successful black head coaches. I try not to delve into the race business much because I think it's usually nonsense, but there were numerous stories on Dungy during the buildup to Super Bowl 41 because he is black and afterward because his team won it. Of course, if the Bears had won, I don't think we would be talking about Lovie Smith in this thread. Dungy has many other factors going for him that made the media latch on and people stay interested:
1. He comes off intelligently and calmly, unlike, say Sean Salisbury or Deion Sanders.
2. He's sympathetic because of his son's suicide.
3. He's an avowed Christian, which makes him popular among a whole other segment of Americans.
He's a very good coach, but I don't think he's a Hall of Famer just yet. Maybe if he gets back into the NFL and wins another championship or 2 (especially with someone other than Peyton at QB) he will be a HOF'er.
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| 15 | Razor
ID: 571022618
Thu, Jan 28, 2010, 23:34
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So the threshold for a Hall of Fame QB is 2, maybe 3 titles? If Dungy gets a third team to even a conference championship, he's probably got a strong enough resume. His record with the Colts is terrific. And when you consider that he won 54 games in 6 years with the Bucs when the franchise won 32 games in the 6 years prior to him and 48 games after (12 of which were with the team he left behind), I'd say he's had an undeniable record of success his entire career.
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| 16 | Seattle Zen
Leader
ID: 055343019
Thu, Jan 28, 2010, 23:45
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Tony Dungy is a great coach, period.
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| 17 | Electroman
ID: 565182111
Fri, Jan 29, 2010, 05:19
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To be fair, Rich McKay and Bill Polian have to get a lot of credit for putting the players at his disposal.
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| 18 | Frick
ID: 9103036
Fri, Jan 29, 2010, 11:22
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I would say that Dungy's work with the Bucs is significantly more impressive than what he did with the Colts.
People make the argument that a coach with good players just needs to sit back and let the players win the title. I think Phil Jackson is a great example of that not always being the case. The coach (probably more so in basketball) can have a great impact on the attitude of the team. Dungy changed the culture of Tampa Bay.
He also changed the culture of Indianapolis. How much he influenced it, is hard to say. But the Colts before Dungy were inconsistent. After he started they consistently won.
As I said before, one of Dungy's greatest strengths is also a huge weakness. He plays the percentages and while that leads to consistent outcomes overall, it can be a detriment with a small sample size. If the Colts had gotten a few lucky breaks (and the majority of play-off games could swing a few breaks) Dungy could have 3-4 Superbowls this decade. If that were the case, how do you not proclaim Dungy the greatest coach of this decade? If 1-2 of those came at the expense of Belicheck would you still argue that Belicheck is by far a better coach?
The argument that the number of SB a person has is the defining characteristic of a person's career seems a little asinine to me. There are 53 players on the field and to many games are decided by those lucky/fluke plays.
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| 19 | judy
ID: 9729212
Fri, Jan 29, 2010, 20:30
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re: 18
Yeah -- look at McNabb (and by association -- Reid) (and other players, esp QB's) -- love him or hate
him, he has taken the Eagles far when he has been healthy, but he will be characterized a total bust if he
does not win the SB for Philly.
SB trumps all -- and perhaps it should not... in the ultimate career evaluation of a player/coach, etc.
flukes hmm:
the PGH INT at the goal line that ended the first half last year -- now how fluky was THAT when he
managed to stagger the full 100 yards --a few breaks and he would have been pushed out of bounds...
one smaller shoe size and PGH loses on that last pass play??
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| 21 | WiddleAvi
ID: 44025819
Fri, Jan 29, 2010, 21:32
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I don't think Dungy gets enough credit just because of his quiet style
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| 22 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Sat, Jan 30, 2010, 11:23
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When they are bad, it's the coach's fault. When they are great, it's the GMs???
Obvioulsy it's a combination of a lot of things like players, complete coaching staff and front office staff.
Dungy is a fantastic defensive coach. When he came to Indy he worked with Polian to bring speed to the defense for his Tampa 2. They drafted Sanders who has missed a lot more games than he has ever played. They ahve been killed by injuries on defense. They're undersized (a tradeoff for speed) and they tended to miss a lot of tackles and give up a lot of yards on the ground. But it worked and with the Colts offense they were often able to outscore their opponents. But as they bought in, Dungy's scheme worked and it's the same they use today. The D is so quick to the ball that even with their DBs all banged up and many out for the year, they are still succeeding.
Isn't it one of the jobs of a coach to get the players in the best position to be effective? I've seen teams loaded with studs who weren't effective yet the Colts have done well with a secondary full of no-names and backups. But let's not forget that the QB pressure also helps out a great deal.
I think Dungy's issue in Tampa was a great D but no O and he still did pretty damn well. When he was let go from Tampa, he already had a pretty good O he stepped into. I think Dungy was very effective. I think Caldwell may be as well, but to me it's still Dungy's blueprint.
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| 23 | Vee
ID: 8750149
Tue, Mar 23, 2010, 21:22
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Dungy=Schottenheimer
These men know how to build winning NFL teams.
Are either "great". No. They're about as high as you can get
before reaching that elite status.
Remember this about Belicheck- Since he's been caught
cheating, he ain't done squat. His defenses haven't been as
magical. Man, I remember watching some of those games and
thinking how many times he called the perfect defensive play.
Hasn't happened since.
Now, that might have a lot to do with Brady going down and the
defense seeing a change of guard (Tedy Bruschi, Ty Law), but it's
a theory I'm going to keep an eye on. He absolutely sucked with
Cleveland, and he had a supportive owner there too.
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| 24 | KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 721308
Wed, Mar 24, 2010, 10:32
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Remember this about Belicheck- Since he's been caught cheating, he ain't done squat.
I wouldn't say that a 10-6 record and AFC East Championship in 2009 qualifies as "ain't done squat."
Similarly, I wouldn't say the Pats' 2008 season qualifies as "ain't done squat." All the Pats did was go 11-5 and lose the AFC East Championship on the fourth tie-breaker (conference record: 8-4 to 7-5). They were the first team since the expansion of the playoffs to 12 teams that won 11 games and did NOT make the playoffs. They were the second team since the NFL expanded to 16 games in 1978 to win 11 games and not make the playoffs.
Has it been a down couple of years by recent Pats standards? Sure. But I think a LOT of teams in the league, and their fans, would be way more than happy with 21 regular season wins, a trip to the playoffs, and a just-missed trip to the playoffs in two years.
There's really no reason to think the Pats will win fewer than 10 games this season and I can think of plenty of teams that would be heartily laughed at if they made such a claim. Belichick is the reason nobody laughs when the claim is made about the Pats.
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