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Subject: PAC10 and BigTen expansion.
Posted by: JeffG
- [47112621] Wed, Jun 09, 2010, 23:09
We've seen changes over the years but big radical changes appear to coming in the college football and basketball landscapes, mostly a result of TV money with the conferences television networks.
Looks like it could go from the Big12 down to 11 or possibly all the way to 5 schools if Nebraska leaves for the Big Ten as is rumored. The Big Ten would then be a 12 team league and get their football conference championship game. They are also rumored to be looking at other schools like Syracuse, Pitt, Maryland, and Rutgers.
The Big East will probably looking at some Conference USA teams to back fill any losses.
The PacTen has been looking at Utah, but potentially if the Big12 falls apart, the PAC10 might then pluck Texas, Colorado, Texas A&M, Texas Tech, Oklahoma and Oklahoma State to turn into a 16 team conference where they'd likely shuffle Arizona and Arizona State joining the newbies in a Southwest Division while the 8 other long standing Pac10 teams would be in a West Division.
Where that leaves the remaining 5 BigXII schools Baylor, Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri and Iowa State is anyone's guess. ACC and SEC have not talked of expanding and seem to have few possible defectors. They could possibly just get out and take another look by the BigTen or Mountain West. The Mountain West is also looking at Boise State.
Notre Dame as a football independent seems the only constant.
Should be a crazy time seeing how this all unfolds. |
| 1 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117
Wed, Jun 09, 2010, 23:22
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I'd actually be moderately surprised if Missouri doesn't end up in the Big Ten along with Nebraska. Frankly, it'd make sense for the Big Ten to take Kansas too at that point (imagine the basketball, ooooh!) but football's the main driver at this point so it probably won't happen.
Taking those three would move to 14 teams, which seems like plenty. Not sure where the other two would come from at that point if they wanted 16.
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| 2 | Tree
ID: 248472317
Thu, Jun 10, 2010, 00:08
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things like this make me hate college football.
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| 3 | barilko6
ID: 58524106
Thu, Jun 10, 2010, 07:25
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Why? If Oklahoma, Texas, Texas A&M, Oklahoma State, Texas Tech move to the Pac 10, we'll finally get more quality matchups for teams like USC, Oregon, Arizona, etc.
This would be great for college football.
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| 4 | boikin
ID: 532592112
Thu, Jun 10, 2010, 14:16
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If Oklahoma, Texas, Texas A&M, Oklahoma State, Texas Tech move to the Pac 10, we'll finally get more quality matchups for teams like USC, Oregon, Arizona, etc.
will they actually play each other that much with a 16 team league you are probably only going to see 8 or 9 teams in conference.
this is what makes college football so great.
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| 5 | Razor
ID: 57854118
Thu, Jun 10, 2010, 14:23
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Count me as one hardcore college football fan who thinks these expansion plans are awful. Dissolving conferences with long standing rivalries for the sake of money is not a move forward, in my opinion.
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| 6 | Bond, James Bond
Leader
ID: 04352469
Thu, Jun 10, 2010, 14:24
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Colorado joins the Pac-10!!!!
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| 7 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Thu, Jun 10, 2010, 14:28
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I think any team east of the Continental Divide should be prevented from joining the "Pac 10."
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| 8 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157
Sun, Jun 13, 2010, 10:04
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Boise State joins the Mtn West Conference. With the Big 12 soon to completely fold(Nebraska joined the Big 10), talk is that possibly Missouri and the Kansas schools will also join the MWC, which will force the powers that be to make the MWC an automatic BCS bowl conference. About time.
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| 9 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Sun, Jun 13, 2010, 10:31
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Missouri has been pushing for the Big Ten. Perhpas they didn't make teh grade? Big Ten are also rumored to ahve an interest in several other teams besides Nebraska. I hear that Notre Dame may be compelled to go to the Big Ten if the dominoes keep falling to form super conferences. I have not heard Maryland as a potential Big Ten school, but have heard those other three schools to form a travel pod with Penn State.
I heard those 6 schools were invited to join the Pac 10 on June 4. The SEC has also invited several Big 12 schools.
This is all about the football right now. The Mountain West could get a boon to their conference if they could reel in those not invited from the Big 12. The thing is that some of these teams left out for now do have some competitive football programs.
The thing that bothers me is the non-revenue sports. Can you imagine the track team having to travel clear across the nation or the soccer team having to stay on the west coast for aweek playing all the teams out there befre coming back? Talk about missing classes...
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| 10 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157
Sun, Jun 13, 2010, 10:56
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Texas A&M could go either Pac 10 or SEC. My morning rag says they're leaning SEC. Hard to phathom A&M not playing Texas in conference play.
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| 11 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Sun, Jun 13, 2010, 11:00
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Maybe they'll do it like Michigan/Notre Dame, and keep them scheduled as much as possible despite not being in the same football conference.
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| 12 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Sun, Jun 13, 2010, 12:08
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Texas had also shown interest in the Big Ten when Missouri did. Perhaps the Big Ten didn't invite them either?
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| 13 | PuNk42AE
Donor
ID: 036635522
Sun, Jun 13, 2010, 16:30
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Big Ten is still trying to Woo them. At this point they are still trying to add 2-4 more teams with 4 sounding like their main number. Notre Dame, Texas (A&M with them) and an East team of Rutgers or Syracuse are what their main ones appear to be.
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| 14 | holt
Donor
ID: 308491916
Sun, Jun 13, 2010, 17:56
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This whole thing is disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.
Why don't we just have all the schools change their colors and mascots while we're at it? The new big rivalry, University of Texas Progressive Insurances vs. the Oregon Coca Colas! Why not? There might be some money in it!
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| 15 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Sun, Jun 13, 2010, 18:11
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Its all about the Benjamins. The Big 12 doesn't have the major TV deals that the Big 10 and PAC 10 do. The Big 12 is suddenly on life support--it will probably go the way of the SWC.
I've heard that the Big 10 will probably look to an East team somewhere as well. Rutgers would love to make the jump I think--they've developed their football team (finally!) and a move to a midwest conference would expand their recruitment base out of the crowded east.
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| 16 | PuNk42AE
Donor
ID: 036635522
Sun, Jun 13, 2010, 19:01
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Lately rumor to keep the Big XII together with 10 teams and allowing Texas to create their own TV Station where they get to KEEP all the money instead of sharing it. If the other teams agree to that they all deserve to be there. A&M would be better off going to the SEC then.
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| 17 | boikin
ID: 532592112
Mon, Jun 14, 2010, 10:54
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This whole thing is disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.
You have to remember all that money football brings in supports all the sports programs. Do you think NCAA swimming brings in enough money to build pools or track and field to build tracks? It could be argued that college football is the single most import sport in the US because it supports the training of so many American and foreign Athletes.
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| 18 | Razor
ID: 57854118
Mon, Jun 14, 2010, 11:04
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Football only funds minor sports at big time football programs. There are plenty of places where football just breaks even. Further, there are plenty of athletic departments that exist without any football program at all. Not every school needs to have an indoor practice field and a 90,000 seat stadium, but all the BCS conferences teams seem to think that they do.
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| 19 | boikin
ID: 532592112
Mon, Jun 14, 2010, 11:43
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Football only funds minor sports at big time football programs.
these are also the same schools that the elite athletes train at. the point still remains valid.
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| 20 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Mon, Jun 14, 2010, 15:40
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I haven't seen latest studies but in 1992, only five athletic programs in the NCAA were in the black overall. The only school in those five at that time who was basically doing it another revenue sport was Indiana (basketball). Three of the five schools were in the Big Ten(Ohio State and Michigan). A fourth was in Indiana (Notre Dame). For the life of me I cna't remember who the fifth team was. Probably USC or UCLA or a SEC school. Now about 20 years later, who knows where the landscape is with overall money but Indiana is losing now I'm guessing.
Point is, it is all about the money. The Big Ten makes more money on their deal than anyone else. Nebraska is a huge football institution and will draw susbscriptions from people nationwide. Their school also mimics what the Big Ten needs in their academic environment. It's a no-brainer. Rutgers helps bring in the NY/NJ audience with a ton of subscriptions. That school has also come up with their atheltic programs and as I posted before makes a nice trave pod where schools can hit muliple schools on the same roadtrip and allow schools shoerter travel in that area. Notre Dame won't join anyone unless the Big East breaks up or the feel they have to by these super-conferences.
ESPN today said that Texas is trying to keep the other schools in the Big 12. WHy? Money. They cna now get tehir own tv package and will get the money from the departure fees from those schools leaving. A&M has always liked the SEC apparently and will likely go there unless all the other schools go Pac 10 together. So that would make 9 teams left.
I can see the Big Ten going as high as 16 teams, but I think unless other shoes drop they could also stay at 12. My gut says conference defections will continue.
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| 21 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Mon, Jun 14, 2010, 15:42
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Story
INDIANAPOLIS (AP) - Fewer than 25 percent of all major collegiate athletic departments made money in 2007-08.
That finding was released Tuesday by the NCAA, which surveyed all 119 Football Bowl Subdivision schools. Of those, 25 reported overall profits for the fiscal year ending June 2008, up from 19 in 2006.
More than half of all football and men’s basketball programs finished in the black. Only one women’s basketball team had a profit.
The NCAA also found that funding from schools and states to athletic budgets comprised 30 percent of total revenue in 2008, compared with 20 percent in 2006. The reported cited a decline in ticket sales and a decrease in donations from alumni and boosters for the change.
Overall, athletic department expenditures have remained relatively constant since 2004, constituting approximately 5 percent of all institutional expenses.
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| 22 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Mon, Jun 14, 2010, 15:53
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19 of the 119 1A football schools made money overall
List of every Div 1 school's basketball revenue and expenses and overall +/-
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| 23 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Mon, Jun 14, 2010, 17:32
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football is a heck of a lot more expensive than hoops. That said, most of the football expenses (including the stadia, etc) at state schools are paid for by taxpayers.
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| 24 | PuNk42AE
Donor
ID: 036635522
Mon, Jun 14, 2010, 18:21
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It will be funny if Colorado ends up being the only XII school to go to the Pac-10. Although I still can't see the rest of the XII accepting the terms of a Texas TV Station.
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| 25 | PuNk42AE
Donor
ID: 036635522
Mon, Jun 14, 2010, 20:02
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And it sounds like the Big XII will stay, A&M saying they are staying, Pac 10 saying Texas declined, and Texas having a presser in the morning.
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| 26 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Mon, Jun 14, 2010, 21:54
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So as of now the Big Ten has 12 members and the Big 12 has 10 members.
Texas brokered their deal to make money for themselves. They don't seem to care about the other schools. They are going to bring home the bank based on Big 12 TV revenue as well as their own TV revenue. Texas also only has 19 sports werhe a school like Ohio State has 34 sports they must pay for.
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| 27 | Seattle Zen
Leader
ID: 055343019
Mon, Jun 14, 2010, 23:05
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Well, I know Wash. State and Arizona State are sad that the Oklahoma schools will not be joining the Pac-10, they are lonely over at the Academic Special Olympics.
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| 28 | C1-NRB
ID: 401412422
Tue, Jun 15, 2010, 01:05
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football is a heck of a lot more expensive than hoops. That said, most of the football expenses (including the stadia, etc) at state schools are paid for by taxpayers.
I think they're probably pretty close. Travel expenses add up for basketball.
Technically, athletic programs are supposed to be "self sustaining" and no state appropriations go towards them. Not directly, anyway.
If you do it right you can have all your facilities paid for through donations or fine print student fees that can only be opted out of if:
a) the student knows they are there,
b) the student specifically requests the proper forms to complete to opt out,
c) the student brings back completed and notarized forms during the allotted, unpublished "Opt-out Form Receiving" time, and
d) the student signs a contract stating, in effect, that, he/she "will not refer to any future athletic success/victory using first-person plural pronouns including, but not limited to: 'we,' 'our,' or 'us;' i.e. 'We won! We really showed them that they can't come to our house and beat us!' Any violation will result in a fine in the amount of the opted-out fee plus monthly interest at a rate equal to the winning percentage of the most successful athletic program for the academic calendar year in which the violation occurred.
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| 29 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Tue, Jun 15, 2010, 01:36
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What football programs will do, for state colleges, is take the cost of the stadium (including the non-unsubstantial cost of maintaining it) off the athletic department's books (they will often call them just "plant costs."
Travel costs for hoops can be high, but the cost of taking a football team across the country to play a single game is often more than the travel budgets of many hoops teams for the season!
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| 30 | Frick
ID: 258158
Tue, Jun 15, 2010, 09:08
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It also depends on how the teams travel and where they stay. Prior to the NCAA Men's basketball championship game there was a stat that said Duke spent about the same per player on expenses as Butler spent for the entire team. Something like 300k.
As for the Big12, the majority of the teams are taking a fiscal hit to allow Texas a major windfall. But, their option was to possibly take an even larger hit by joining another conference, although the teams going to the Pac-10 probably would have made out ok.
I would like to see a more recent profit statement for schools. I would assume that the Big 10 schools are all now very profitable with their new TV contracts and the Big10 network. I believe the initial plan was for the Big10 network to break even after 2-3 years, it turned a profit after 6 months.
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| 31 | WTC Building 7
ID: 51538158
Tue, Jun 15, 2010, 09:39
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Here's an email from by boss. Or my boss's,boss's,boss's boss:
June 14, 2010
To The Aggie Family:
The past two weeks have been a whirlwind of speculation as Texas A&M University and several other institutions in the Big 12 Conference evaluated our athletic affiliations. At the end of the day, 10 of the 12 schools in the Big 12 – including Texas A&M – have determined that the conference was definitely worth saving due to our collective strengths in academics, national competitiveness, geographic fit and overall financial value.
Throughout the conference evaluation process, I was encouraged by something that I already knew –Texas A&M is incredibly strong and the passion of our current and former students, as well as our faculty and staff, is unmatched anywhere. As evidence, I have been overwhelmed by thousands of emails, phone calls and Facebook posts from Aggies in support of any of the three options we were considering – remaining in the Big 12, or joining the Southeastern Conference or Pac-10 Conference.
Let me be clear: This decision was made in the best interests of Texas A&M and was not made in haste. As I mentioned to the Faculty Senate Monday afternoon, our top consideration was the demands placed on our student-athletes, in terms of academics, time away from the classroom, and the overall level of competition. There were also many other factors considered, including maintaining Texas A&M’s strong foothold in the State of Texas and preserving our natural athletic rivalries, many of which date back more than 100 years. And, ultimately, by remaining a member of the Big 12, we were able to more than double our financial return to the levels being offered by other conferences.
I understand that some Aggies are disappointed, but I am confident this decision will serve Texas A&M well in the years to come. As Athletic Director Bill Byrne and I stated numerous times throughout this process, our hope and desire was for the Big 12 to continue. And we both agree that this is an exciting, new day for our league.
I appreciate all of your feedback and thoughts on this important issue. As Aggies, I know that you will rally around our Texas A&M student-athletes as they train over the summer and begin Big 12 competition this fall.
Thanks again, and Gig ’Em!
Dr. R. Bowen Loftin ’71
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| 32 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157
Tue, Jun 15, 2010, 09:52
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Now that the Pac 10 dreams of decimating the Big 12 appear dead, rumours abound about if and where the Pac 10 will find a 12th member.
Salt Lake Tribune seems to think Utah is a good bet.
A last-ditch effort to save the Big 12 appears to have saved Utah's chances of joining the Pac-10.
Once seemingly headed to be locked out of the conference expansion frenzy, the Utes now are thought to be the favored team to be the 12th team to join the conference.
The last spot in the Pac-10's efforts to expand to 16 teams was thought to be between Utah and Kansas of the Big 12.
Now, with Monday's announcement that Texas is remaining in the Big 12 -- and others are expected to follow suit, thanks to the prospect of a rich TV deal -- the Utes have emerged as the strongest available candidate for the Pac-10.
The Pac 10 would pick up the Denver and Salt Lake markets with Colorado and Utah, and it makes more geographical sense, although that doesn't appear to be much of a factor in these decisions.
Losing Utah would be potentially devastating for the Mountain West Conference, even with the addition of Boise State.
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| 33 | boikin
ID: 532592112
Tue, Jun 15, 2010, 10:31
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So as of now the Big Ten has 12 members and the Big 12 has 10 members.
how great is that?
Texas brokered their deal to make money for themselves.
I wonder how A&M feels about that one?
And, ultimately, by remaining a member of the Big 12, we were able to more than double our financial return to the levels being offered by other conferences.
how is that possible, the big 12 lost there second biggest ratings school in Nebraska. I think the writing is on the wall, maybe not this year the big 12 looks done. Maybe they can get Arky, I think the SEC has been shopping them in a sign and trade deal.
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| 34 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Tue, Jun 15, 2010, 17:08
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Big 12 denies that they are persuing TCU and another unnamed school to get back to 12.
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| 35 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157
Fri, Jun 18, 2010, 00:52
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Utah officially in the Pac 10 starting 2011.
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| 36 | revvingparson
ID: 4657187
Fri, Jun 18, 2010, 08:21
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re:33 They were able to double the money because of 2 things 1) TV contracts are not being renegotiated and thus will continue to pay out as if there were 12 teams so with only 10 teams dividing up the pie they naturally make more money. 2) The pay outs of Neb and Col play into to the money totals...
Now it will be interesting in 2-5 years, if the B12 still stands, if the TV contracts will be as lucrative as today...my guess is that economically they will be unsustainable, particularly if TX develops its own TV network...
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