Posted by: Electroman
- Donor [010833614] Sun, Oct 09, 2011, 10:25
I didn't know that much about him, just what the media would say about him. So my opinion of him was not high. Now that he has died, and reading about him, quite the man. He had a huge heart and loved his Raiders. It is too bad that the game may have passed him by in his later years, but those in the media who took that as an excuse to smear him, well, I am sure we all have our own opinion of them. Many people in the NFL will miss him, he was a good friend to all, even those who could be considered enemies. I am interested if Kiffin and Shanahan will make a statement.
1
sarge33rd
ID: 3936910 Sun, Oct 09, 2011, 11:57
Love him or hate him (for whatever reasons), one must admit he fought hard, for what he believed in with the NFLs powers that be. Opinionated, strong willed..the public side of him. Genuinely concerned for his team, his players, the not so well known side of him.
RIP Mr Davis.
2
TB
ID: 108221922 Wed, Oct 12, 2011, 12:31
The game never passed him by, Electroman. If you read what people who knew him are saying, he was still mentoring and passing on knowledge until the day he died. He was set in a lot of his ways and wanted the Raiders to play a very distinct brand of football that he took a lot of criticism for when the team struggled to win. They are playing that same brand of football this year, but when you win games you don't get the negative stories.
This is a big loss for his family, Raider Nation, and the NFL.
3
Seattle Zen Leader
ID: 055343019 Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 22:21
Are we sure he's dead? If true, his lasting legacy is terrible trades.
4
TB
ID: 108221922 Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 22:34
We will see about that. I love the trade. Wish we didn't have to give up two high draft picks, but I'd much rather see Palmer behind center for the rest of this season (and hopefully the next 4-5 seasons) than Boller. We have a great young core of players. With our offensive line and running game, Palmer is going to turn our offense from really good to great. I'm just hoping we don't see him behind center until after our bye week. No rush to throw him out there this week.
5
Da Bomb Donor
ID: 487112814 Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 22:40
Palmer is an upgrade (probably) but the Raiders got terrible value. A 1st round pick is usually treated like gold in the NFL, let alone two of them.
6
TB
ID: 108221922 Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 23:14
I'd argue that many 1st round draft picks are busts or not really worthy of being drafted where they are picked. Let's revisit this thread in a couple years and compare the players taken. Better yet, go ahead and post in this thread during the draft if you agree with who the Bengals took or who you would have taken in that spot. If Palmer totally flops then this was a terrible trade. If the Raiders win a Superbowl then it was a brilliant trade. If the Raiders can win the West the next couple seasons, then I certainly appreciate the team trading for a player who helps us win.
How many players are coming out of the draft in the next two seasons than can have an impact on the Raiders success as much as Palmer?
7
Da Bomb Donor
ID: 487112814 Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 23:44
That's a different argument. I also think draft picks are overvalued in the NFL, but they are held to a premium within the inner circles. I can't tell you who else was available for trade, but two first round picks should net you a much better player than Palmer. With Campbell just getting injured and today being the trade deadline, the Raiders were operating with no leverage and had to overpay to get a serviceable QB right now.
8
TB
ID: 108221922 Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 03:58
Can you give me a couple examples of who in the NFL you can get for two first round picks better than Palmer?
I mean, I know it's easy to toss that out there, but let's be realistic. Which other QB could the Raiders have acquired this year with those same picks?
On the flip side, if you were making decisions for an NFL team would you trade away Brady for 2 first round picks? Rodgers? Rivers? Brees? Vick? Romo? Ryan? Schaub? Freeman? Newton? Stafford? Manning? Fitzpatrick? Roethlisberger? Cutler? Flacco?
I can keep naming QB's, but the truth is I don't think you are going to name one better QB than Palmer who could be gotten for those same picks. Plenty of worse ones, though. Now take into account the Raiders picks aren't going to be high picks. They are going to win the West this year and in order for the 2013 pick to be a first rounder the Raiders have to win a playoff game this year, otherwise it's a 2nd round pick.
9
Electroman Donor
ID: 010833614 Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 08:38
I hope it works out for the Raiders, I always liked Palmer, and I hope getting out of the funk that is Cincy, he can get his career back on track. THe Bengals were in a stalemate with him, and getting an offer like this for a guy who was not going to play for them anymore is robbery, but it was a team that was in a more desperate situation than Cincy that made the value of this trade. No way if they had waited till the offseason were they going to get the same value.
10
Seattle Zen Leader
ID: 055343019 Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 10:56
I'd argue that many 1st round draft picks are busts or not really worthy of being drafted where they are picked.
That's a Raiders fan right there! It's true that your beloved has been one of, if not the, worst teams on draft day, so the loss of the ability to pick the wrong player and overpay him is not the end of the world.
Can you give me a couple examples of who in the NFL you can get for two first round picks better than Palmer?
That's the problem, TB, you already had a good QB in Campbell, you didn't need to throw away your future for for a 32 year old QB. I would imagine that you certainly could land Cutler for those two picks, maybe even Romo, but the bottom line is the Raiders didn't need to make this trade. TB, we all know that you are a true Oakland homer, but no one thinks the Raiders are going to be contenders this season even if Palmer plays as well as he is capable. They are not going to win the West, they are looking at two losses to SD later this season. Keep your fingers crossed for a wild card so Palmer can get a chance at winning his first playoff game ever and you can be relieved of the burden of your 2013 first rounder.
11
Seattle Zen Leader
ID: 055343019 Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 11:43
Forgot to mention the horrible contract he is signed to. Salary cap killer...
12
TB
ID: 318221411 Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 17:02
Electroman, I wouldn't say it's robbery. Mike Brown felt pretty strongly about Palmer having to live up to his contract and only budged on trading him because he got exceptional value and because Dalton is playing good. In all honesty, I think this was a great trade for both teams. The Bengals got some great picks for a player who wasn't going to play for them and the Raiders finally got a Franchise QB.
Zen, yes I said Franchise QB. This isn't Charlie Whitehurst or Tavaris Jackson running our offense and we aren't shooting for a .500 record. I love the leadership that Campbell has shown since the end of last season and it sucks to see his days as a Raider end due to an injury, but I'd be lying if I said I was confident enough in his ability to get us to the Superbowl. He was mostly a good game manager that made some good throws and made some terrible throws. He was a serviceable QB. Regardless, he is done for at least 6 weeks and my guess is he won't be fully healthy until next season when he is no longer under contract. We have Pryor on the bench and can give him plenty of time to develop behind Palmer.
no one thinks the Raiders are going to be contenders this season even if Palmer plays as well as he is capable. They are not going to win the West, they are looking at two losses to SD later this season. I felt confident we were winning the division with Campbell as QB. With Palmer, I think the Raiders can not only win the division but can compete with any team in the league and go win it all. I didn't go google to see what other folks think, but have a hard time believing there aren't pundits who think the Raiders are the best team in the West. We swept the conference last year and are a better team than the Chargers again this year. The difference in our opinion on where the Raiders end up perfectly explains why you and I might disagree on the value of this trade. As Herm Edwards recently said, is the Price worth the Prize? I think it is. I've been wrong plenty of times in my life, but I am 100% confident that our chances of making the playoffs increased by adding Palmer instead of starting Boller and hoping we still have a winning record and chance by the time/if Campbell returns.
You should head on over to pro-football-reference.com and look up some stats before you start saying Campbell was nearly as good as Palmer or that Cutler is better than Palmer. I just tossed Cutler's name on the list above, but I doubt Chicago would trade their starting QB AND I'd take Palmer over him any day. You should also go look at Palmers stats. The guy is 46-51 as a starter for the BENGALS. I know it was fun to mock the Raiders for their suckiness from 2003-2009, but the Bengals have a total of 12 winning seasons in their 43 year history. Worst professional sports franchise, ever.
While I respect your opinion, I do not think trading away one pick in 2012 and one in 2013 is "throwing away the future" for Oakland. On top of that, they have young starters at every position on the team. The biggest weakness was at the QB position. We can thank Jamarcus for setting us back a few years at that position. Palmer turns 32 in December. Brady turned 34 in August. I honestly don't get why anyone thinks Palmer is "washed up" or old. He has 97 career starts and plenty of football left to play.
That's a Raiders fan right there! It's true that your beloved has been one of, if not the, worst teams on draft day, so the loss of the ability to pick the wrong player and overpay him is not the end of the world. I am not going to deny we have had some terrible early round picks, but so has every other team. Thanks for Curry, btw. Prior to the rookie wage scale this year and while it looked like DHB wasn't going to develop, I preferred seeing the raiders trade away their first for proven talent like Seymour. That worked out pretty good for us. We've had some great picks in the draft as well. It's a lot easier to scrutinize a top 10 pick and the Raiders have had their share this past decade. We've done much better outside the first round lately with guys like Houston, Veldheer, Ford, Shaughnessy, Murphy, and this years players (Moore, Wiz, DVD, Barksdale, Chekwa, Jones), but our last three first rounders are all paying dividends; Rolando McClain, Darrius Heyward-Bey, Darren McFadden. I'd say four out of the last five turning out good with Huff added to the list and only Russell being a bust. I could post pages about Russell and all the hype he received. I even saved some links to everyone and their brother saying how great he was so it's not like only the Raiders missed the boat on him.
I know I am writing a novel at this point, but I saw the new contract numbers for Palmer and thought they were pretty good. 2.5 million for this year in order to stroke the cap a bit. 12.5, 13, and 15 for the remaining 3 years with 7.5 guaranteed. Averages out to 10.75 million per year. Your boy Cutler is getting about the same per year with 20 million guaranteed. Bradford 13 million a year, Eli Manning 16, Romo 11.3, Peyton at 18 after his latest extension. I am guessing most good QB's are getting 10+ a year.
13
TB
ID: 318221411 Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 17:06
BTW, before you correct me and tell me you are a Vikings fan after I said thanks for Curry, sometimes in my old age I am forgetful. I am going to blame it on Seattle in your handle.
14
DWetzel
ID: 49962710 Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 17:54
From the same pro-football-reference.com
NumYrs Players whose career was of similar quality and shape
Career Tony Romo, Eli Manning, Aaron Brooks, Michael Vick, David Garrard, Jake Delhomme, Scott Mitchell, Mark Rypien, Philip Rivers, Chad Pennington
I mean, obviously similarity scores are an inexact science to say the least, but the fact that you could have had David Garrard for 0 draft picks and considerably less money kind of drives the point home.
16
Challenger
ID: 35781513 Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 18:09
Garrard says he's going to have surgery on his back. How's that a better deal?
17
TB
ID: 108221922 Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 20:06
From what I read, the Raiders were interested in Garrard and after contacting him were told he needed surgery. There is a good chance that if he was healthy they might not have made this trade and instead would have counted on Boller/Garrard until Campbell could have returned.
18
TB
ID: 108221922 Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 20:26
QUOTE OF THE DAY “I thought we were going to get (David) Garrard, but we got Palmer, so, hey, man, can’t do nothing but be happy.” — Raiders defensive tackle Tommy Kelly on what he thought of the Palmer trade
Da Bomb Donor
ID: 487112814 Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 21:10
Oakland's defense has been awful. Right now giving up on average the 6th most points per game. Also near the bottom in takeaways. I'm sure 2 early round picks would help them there.
Let's look at all the QBs taken in the 1st round from 2008-2010: Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, Matt Stafford, Mark Sanchez, Josh Freeman, Sam Bradford, Tim Tebow. I take each and every one of those over Palmer right now, who could cost 2 first round picks. Plus, with the new rookie wage scale, early round picks are worth even more of a premium than they ever were before. If Oakland was one Jason Campbell injury away from trading away a huge chunk of their future, they probably should have planned better during the offseason where they could have received a better deal for a better QB.
It's hard to say which QBs were available at the deadline. Kyle Orton probably was off the top of my head. I think he goes for a late round pick right now. Hue Jackson is apparently very biased towards Palmer from their days in Cincinnati together and wanted to overpay to get him. And not so ironically, they share an agent.
Plus, we are talking like it's a sure thing Palmer is even good anymore. If he averages his career stats over the rest of the year I think that's a huge success. I see no reason not to expect his most recent below average 2010 stats though. It's not a coincidence he hasn't been the same player since he badly injured his knee. TB, you may think Oakland can compete for a Super Bowl right now, but that opinion is in the minority and Palmer still does not push them anywhere close to that level. Does the Oakland media even like this trade? You are the first person I've seen defend the Oakland side.
20
TB
ID: 108221922 Thu, Oct 20, 2011, 03:48
Sanchez and Tebow, really? Other than Tebow, I think every player you listed was drafted prior to the 20th pick, which means if the Raiders wanted to pick a QB of the caliber you listed, they would have to give up multiple draft picks anyway...for an unproven commodity. If I get time later I can look up the trade compensation the Giants had to give up to swap Rivers for Manning or what the Bears gave up to get Cutler. I might even compare their QB ratings and TD to interception ratios.
If you went back one more year we could have added Jamarcus Russel and Brady Quinn. Two more years, add Vince Young, Matt Leinart, and Jay Cutler. Then Alex Smith, Aaron Rodgers and Jason Campbell. Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger, and J.P. Losman are next. Then 2003 where we have Carson Palmer, Byron Leftwich, Kyle Boller and Rex Grossman.
Certainly some good names, but plenty of duds as well. That goes for every position. The draft is much more of a crapshoot than trading for a proven and known commodity. To me (an admitted Trojan and Raider homer) Palmer is like having money in the bank. Drafting a rookie is like investing money in the stock market. You know how much you have in the bank where the stock market can be high risk, high reward. Two things to add to that: 1) We used our 3rd round pick in next years draft picking a possible QB of the future in Pryor. I think too many people see what trades we don't have next year and somehow equate that to this trade. As a bonus, he gets to practice and play with the team this year but during next years draft we can pretend when the third round comes along that we just selected him. We also traded our second round pick next year to get an extra 3rd and 4th in this last draft, acquiring Taiwan Jones and our future starting RT and current contributor Joe Barksdale. 2) We have the pieces we need to compete now. We are not in rebuilding mode. We sucked for 7 years. We made some terrible free agent signings along the way (Moss, Sapp, Walker, Hall) and had the biggest draft bust in NFL history, but our time is the present.
I don't expect you to believe that nor the majority of the USA because you guys aren't fans and don't follow the team. Most of the nation has only gotten to see them beat the Broncos and the rest of their exposure has been highlight clips and media stories. The Chiefs and Broncos are terrible and the only competition the Raiders have for the AFC West is the Chargers, who have lost to the only good team they've played so far. Along with four remaining division games (2 vs the Raiders), they still have to face the Lions, Packers, Bears, Jets, Bills, Ravens, and Jags. The Raiders also still have the Lions, Packers, and Bears, but their only other two remaining non-division games are against the Vikings and Dolphins with wins already over the Jets, Texans, and Browns.
We have the best rushing game in the NFL with McFadden and Bush. We haven't used Taiwan Jones much outside of special teams and Marcel Reece has been dinged up but should be back this week. Our offensive line has only given up a handful of sacks this season and they are punishing run blockers. All but two of those sacks were Campbell getting happy feet or good coverage sacks. We have some explosive young receivers. Everybody knows who Jacoby Ford is, what he is capable of both as a receiver and kick returner, and he is finally getting back to full health. Denarius Moore has already made some great plays and is showing poise beyond his experience. DHB is finally coming into his own. Murphy is now healthy, Schilens has made it through 6 games without being hurt, and Hagan might be our best possession receiver but there are just so many footballs to go around. Boss should be incorporated into the offense a bit more now that he is healthy as well.
Oakland defense has been a work in progress. We've been playing rookie DB's every week to cover down for injuries and most of our full time starters and players are back to full health now. Against the Patriots we had to start a rookie at CB and we were missing Huff, Mitchell, and Johnson. Against the Browns we were only missing Johnson and they showed improvement. We have a great DL rotation with Seymour, Kelly, Houston, Bryant, Henderson, Moss, and Scott. Sucks losing Shaughnessy for the year, but those guys have been doing a great job. Our biggest problem has been covering the TE and sealing off the RB on the outside. I rewatched the Browns game and Curry made some great plays (with 2 days of practice with the team) to help bottle up those runs. I think we see improved LB play moving forward...finally. We also blitzed quite a bit more and while I love Al Davis eternally, he wasn't a big fan of blitzing and I think you will see a continued aggressive defense now that Chuck Bresnahan has comp0lete control of what can be called. We are not at the Ravens level, but most teams aren't. I expect steady improvement all season, though.
I have stats too:
Takeaways: The NFL average is 10.5 and the Raiders have 9. 17 teams have more than the Raiders while 14 teams have the same amount or less.
Sacks: The NFL average is 12.7 and the Raiders have 16. Only 7 teams have more than them and five of them have only one more.
Passes Defensed: 2nd most in the league.
As far as Palmer's health, he hurt that knee three years ago. It did take him a couple seasons to get healthy and I'd speculate that the knee and elbow problems did contribute to the decline in his stats in 2009 and 2010, but he has been given a clean bill of health and said himself his arm is as strong as ever (validated by Ken O'Brien) and that his knee has been fully healed for quite some time. I also don't think the Bengals had as good as offensive line or rushing game as the Raiders currently do. Plus, a change of scenery and a chip on the shoulder to prove doubters wrong can't hurt either. I don't expect him to come out his first game and play at All-Pro level, but I also don't think it will take him long to be performing well.
Hue Jackson is the biggest reason I trust this trade. He recruited Palmer to come to USC, coached him there and then coached him in Cincinatti. He knows what Palmer is capable of and I have to believe that if Palmer had any health concerns Hue would know about them. Speaking of Hue, I love this guy. He is doing an excellant job.
PALMER IMPRESSES IN DEBUT Palmer practiced with his new teammates for the first time Wednesday. He said it’s going to take some time to shake off the rust, but his teammates already like what they see. “He looked great,” wide receiver Chaz Schilens said. “That’s all there is to it, man.” Palmer said it was nice being in an NFL setting again after spending the past nine months or so finding creative ways to stay in shape. “Definitely rusty,” Palmer said. “Good to be back in it but definitely have some rust to wear off. I haven’t thrown to NFL receivers in awhile. Whether it’s been high school kids or my brother, I have had one NFL guy to throw to in T.J. Houshmandzadeh but, other than that, I haven’t thrown to guys that can run like this and lots of guys that can run like this in seven-on-seven situations and team situations, things like that.” Receiver Jacoby Ford said it would be difficult for Palmer to start this Sunday. Even so, it’s only a matter of time before Palmer and the receivers are in synch. “He looked good,” Ford said. “It’s just a matter of the timing. He has to get that down and get used to the offense and new receivers. Whenever we can do that, we’ll be clicking on all cylinders.” Jackson dismissed reports about Palmer starting against the Chiefs on Sunday. “You hear it come from me?” Jackson said. “It didn’t come from anybody over here. I know I never said that.” Jackson said he will wait until Friday night before he determines whether Palmer is far enough along to start. Palmer hasn’t played in a game of any kind since Jan. 2. Receiver Derek Hagan, perhaps, is best qualified to pass judgment on the status of Palmer, given they spent some time together during the lockout. “Carson looked great,” Hagan said. “Obviously, the same Carson I’ve been working with throughout the summer. We had a few throwing sessions out in L.A. He looks the same. He’s putting the ball right on the money. Obviously that’s something we’re looking forward to.”
21
Frick
ID: 387512315 Thu, Oct 20, 2011, 08:29
Unless Palmer is an absolute disaster, I think this is a good trade for Oakland. If Palmer is successful, the Raiders make the play-offs and at the start of next season have to proven starting QBs. That isn't a bad problem to have. They will likely be able to get one or more draft picks back if they trade Palmer or Campbell.
Seattle Zen Leader
ID: 055343019 Sun, Oct 23, 2011, 23:33
Oh boy, TB, you've got some 'splaining to do. If the Raiders can lose by 28 to KC at home, how would they do on the road in the playoffs?
I don't think we'll find out.
24
TB
ID: 108221922 Sun, Oct 23, 2011, 23:57
Lol, I knew somebody would come in here and gloat after the Raiders lost today. This is the internet after all. Wouldn't have heard a peep had they won.
It was an ugly loss and I can throw out tons of excuses, but don't need to. Palmer gets two weeks to prepare for the next game and the team should be a bit healthier. Looking forward to watching the team progress and yes, still expect to see them win the West.
25
Seattle Zen Leader
ID: 055343019 Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 19:49
DA RAIDAZ!
27
TB
ID: 451028614 Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 22:02
I still stand by everything I said. Palmer looks much better and is still only about 75-80% rust free. By next week, when we have McFadden back, the offense will be doing great. No clue why the Raider defense came out so flat in the second half. They looked dominating the entire first half and just came out flat after halftime. The Raiders will still win this division this year and be a contender as long as Palmer is QB.
28
Seattle Zen Leader
ID: 055343019 Mon, Nov 07, 2011, 00:05
The only reason the Raiders are still "contenders" for the division is because the AFC West is awful. To even propose that they are Super Bowl contenders is the height of ridiculousness. If anything, its a strong argument against having four divisions in each conference.
29
Electroman Donor
ID: 010833614 Mon, Nov 07, 2011, 08:29
Saw something interesting on the ESPN countdown show, and it makes sense. When Palmer has a strong running game going, he and the team perform well. When he is the "guy", numbers and team not so well. I guess that is a good thing in Oakland, with the riches they have at the RB position.
30
The Beezer Dude
ID: 191202817 Mon, Nov 07, 2011, 09:51
I'm no Raiders fan, but if I were an AFC team, I would be rooting for them not to make the playoffs. They have all the tools needed to make a deep playoff run. They are as likely to self-destruct as not, but if they're in they could go all the way.
31
sarge33rd
ID: 4610371014 Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 23:02
OAK is giving SD all they can handle and then some atm.
32
Seattle Zen Leader
ID: 055343019 Mon, Jan 02, 2012, 19:46
Didn't win the division, in fact, the worst team to ever qualify for a playoff spot won your division.
People harp on the problems of college football, and there are many, but few people pipe up when Pro Football looks idiotic. The Denver Broncos win a handful of games in a row with chewing gum and tobacco juice, then the magic wears off and they are plumb awful. Yet they not only go to the playoffs, they actually get to HOST the damn game! Scrap the four divisions and seed them one through six.
I would be rooting for them not to make the playoffs PHEW!
33
TB
ID: 451028614 Mon, Jan 09, 2012, 02:36
That's two years in the row that the "worst team to ever qualify for a playoff spot" has won a playoff game. Amazing how that works out.
34
Frick
ID: 387512315 Mon, Jan 09, 2012, 10:22
Saying that the Bronco's are worse than last year's Seahawks teams is a bit of stretch. Tebow has limitations, but Denver has a played very good defense and Tebow has been very, very good and very, very bad, often in the same game.
35
Seattle Zen Leader
ID: 055343019 Mon, Jan 09, 2012, 10:59
TB - it certainly helps that the horrible team gets to host the game. There is no way the Seahawks would have kept the game within ten in the Superdome. Some people like this, what some people call giving an undeserving team a chance they should not have others honestly believe that by being the best team out of four lousy teams means they have "earned" the right.
The Broncos absolutely are worse than the Seahawks last year. Here is the math (Matt Hasselbeck > Tebow) > (The rest of the Broncos > The rest of the Seahawks + Seahawks home field advantage). The Seahawks at home have been very good teams, even last year. The Broncos are pretty bad at home and on the road.
36
Great One
ID: 574139 Mon, Jan 09, 2012, 12:15
Tebow 3:16 (passing yards) says he just whooped your a*s
37
TB
ID: 451028614 Mon, Jan 09, 2012, 23:44
Zen, the league is set up for division winners to make the playoffs. It's not like everyone in the AFC West got to play the NFC West, the AFC South and Cleveland twice this year. I hate the Broncos, almost as much as I hate the Steelers, so it's not like I had a horse in this race, but Denver more than proved they were the better team yesterday. I don't care where that game was played, the Steelers were getting Tebowed.
38
Da Bomb Donor
ID: 487112814 Tue, Jan 10, 2012, 00:35
but Denver more than proved they were the better team yesterday
That was probably the best Denver has played all year as a whole (and definitely the best Tebow has played) and they barely beat a very hobbled Pittsburgh team at home. Unless they continue to play nearly perfectly, which I guess is not impossible, they don't have much of a chance.
39
Seattle Zen
ID: 4811181319 Sat, Jan 14, 2012, 23:11
Yeah, worst playoff team ever...
40
TB
ID: 451028614 Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 02:52
The worst playoff team ever doesn't win a game. I would vote for the 1982 Cleveland Browns who made the playoffs during that strike-shortened season at 4-5 and then lost in the first round.
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