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0 Subject: 2019 RotoGuru 14

Posted by: Judy - [35493114] Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 14:16

Welcome back!

Please sign in here with you team name.
You should have received an MFL invite.
1Judy
      ID: 35493114
      Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 14:17
2018 rosters have been moved over. We still need to delete players acquired during the playoffs.

If you do not plan to return please note here so we can begin a search for your replacement...🤪😢
2Judy
      ID: 35493114
      Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 14:19
GHOSTWOOD/ Judy is IN...

Expect to have some players available for trades etc...
3 GoatLocker
      ID: 1615517
      Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 14:23
GoatLocker's Goons

GoatLocker is in.
4 I_AM_CANADIAN
      Sustainer
      ID: 01361448
      Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 15:34
IAC... In!

Thanks for getting this started early Judy!
5Athletics Guy
      ID: 226471519
      Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 20:47
Oaktown Raiders is in
6 taxman
      SuperDude
      ID: 029463114
      Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 23:43
Luxury Tax

Taxman is in
7Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 10:34
RotoGuru Klingons is in. I'm assembling a list of all keeper candidates with associated draft picks for each team. Hopefully will have a first cut available in a few days.
8 SwinganaMiss
      ID: 402572821
      Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 14:28
SwinganaMiss is in
9Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 22:42
Here is my first attempt at identifying the picks associated with each eligible keeper for 2019. The process is complex, with a number of manual steps, so mistakes are expected. Please review your roster below and let me know if you see anything that looks wrong. Once the data appears to be correct, I can work on reformatting into a grid.

Art of Monk 1 Elliott, Ezekiel DAL RB
Art of Monk 2 Mixon, Joe CIN RB
Art of Monk 3 Davis, Corey TEN WR
Art of Monk 3 Edelman, Julian NEP WR
Art of Monk 4 Watkins, Sammy KCC WR
Art of Monk 6 Nelson, Jordy OAK WR
Art of Monk 8 Peterson, Adrian WAS RB
Art of Monk 9 Donald, Aaron LAR DE
Art of Monk 10 Kittle, George SFO TE
Art of Monk 11 Manning, Eli NYG QB
Art of Monk 11 Trevathan, Danny CHI LB
Art of Monk 12 Garoppolo, Jimmy SFO QB
Art of Monk 12 Lewis, Dion TEN RB
Art of Monk 14 Guice, Derrius WAS RB (R) (I)
Art of Monk 15 Miller, Von DEN LB
Art of Monk 16 Foster, Mason WAS LB
Art of Monk 19 Lutz, Wil NOS PK
Art of Monk 24 Agholor, Nelson PHI WR
Art of Monk 24 Allen, Josh BUF QB (R)
Art of Monk 24 Andrews, Mark BAL TE (R)
Art of Monk 24 Gore, Frank MIA RB
Art of Monk 24 Reid, Justin HOU S (R)
Art of Monk 24 Swearinger, D.J. WAS S
Art of Monk 24 Van Noy, Kyle NEP LB

Ford Std 1 Beckham, Odell NYG WR
Ford Std 1 Brees, Drew NOS QB
Ford Std 2 Henry, Derrick TEN RB
Ford Std 4 Olsen, Greg CAR TE
Ford Std 7 Cole, Keelan JAC WR
Ford Std 7 Goff, Jared LAR QB
Ford Std 8 Smith, Roquan CHI LB (R)
Ford Std 9 Peppers, Jabrill CLE S
Ford Std 10 Kirk, Christian ARI WR (R)
Ford Std 11 Breida, Matt SFO RB
Ford Std 11 McKinnon, Jerick SFO RB
Ford Std 15 Godwin, Chris TBB WR
Ford Std 16 Foreman, D'Onta HOU RB
Ford Std 17 Hooper, Austin ATL TE
Ford Std 19 Butker, Harrison KCC PK
Ford Std 20 Mayfield, Baker CLE QB (R)
Ford Std 24 Fuller, Kyle CHI CB
Ford Std 24 Gallup, Michael DAL WR (R)
Ford Std 24 Heyward, Cameron PIT DE
Ford Std 24 Hicks, Akiem CHI DE
Ford Std 24 Jones, Ronald TBB RB (R)
Ford Std 24 Milano, Matt BUF LB
Ford Std 24 Pettis, Dante SFO WR (R)
Ford Std 24 Sutton, Courtland DEN WR (R)
Ford Std 24 Walker, Anthony IND LB

Ghostwood 1 Fournette, Leonard JAC RB
Ghostwood 1 Gordon, Melvin LAC RB
Ghostwood 1 Thomas, Michael NOS WR
Ghostwood 4 Burton, Trey CHI TE
Ghostwood 4 Jones, Chandler ARI DE
Ghostwood 5 Wentz, Carson PHI QB
Ghostwood 6 Adams, Davante GBP WR
Ghostwood 9 Carr, Derek OAK QB
Ghostwood 11 Patterson, Cordarrelle NEP WR
Ghostwood 14 Alonso, Kiko MIA LB
Ghostwood 15 Bradham, Nigel PHI LB
Ghostwood 16 Sproles, Darren PHI RB
Ghostwood 18 Elliott, Jake PHI PK
Ghostwood 21 Quin, Glover DET S
Ghostwood 22 Smallwood, Wendell PHI RB
Ghostwood 24 Atkins, Geno CIN DT
Ghostwood 24 Blue, Alfred HOU RB
Ghostwood 24 Butler, Malcolm TEN CB
Ghostwood 24 Davis, Todd DEN LB
Ghostwood 24 Goedert, Dallas PHI TE (R)
Ghostwood 24 Harrison, Damon DET DT
Ghostwood 24 Ogunjobi, Larry CLE DT
Ghostwood 24 Poole, Brian ATL CB
Ghostwood 24 Williams, Shawn CIN S

Goatlocker 1 Evans, Mike TBB WR
Goatlocker 1 Gronkowski, Rob NEP TE
Goatlocker 1 Hilton, T.Y. IND WR
Goatlocker 6 Garrett, Myles CLE DE
Goatlocker 6 Rivers, Philip LAC QB
Goatlocker 7 Johnson, Duke CLE RB
Goatlocker 8 Bernard, Giovani CIN RB
Goatlocker 10 Collins, Jamie CLE LB
Goatlocker 10 Mahomes, Patrick KCC QB
Goatlocker 12 Smith-Schuster, JuJu PIT WR
Goatlocker 15 Allen, Javorius BAL RB
Goatlocker 16 Tucker, Justin BAL PK
Goatlocker 20 Jenkins, Malcolm PHI S
Goatlocker 22 Ivory, Chris BUF RB
Goatlocker 24 Bethea, Antoine ARI S
Goatlocker 24 Davis, Vernon WAS TE
Goatlocker 24 Dupree, Bud PIT LB
Goatlocker 24 Grant, Jakeem MIA WR
Goatlocker 24 Harris, Chris DEN CB
Goatlocker 24 Hughes, Jerry BUF DE
Goatlocker 24 Hunt, Margus IND DT
Goatlocker 24 Jackson, Justin LAC RB (R)
Goatlocker 24 Sheard, Jabaal IND DE
Goatlocker 24 Smith, Za'Darius BAL LB

IAC 2 Miller, Lamar HOU RB
IAC 3 Thomas, Demaryius HOU WR
IAC 4 Michel, Sony NEP RB (R)
IAC 5 Kuechly, Luke CAR LB
IAC 6 Ingram, Melvin LAC DE
IAC 6 Jeffery, Alshon PHI WR
IAC 7 Mack, Khalil CHI DE
IAC 9 Prescott, Dak DAL QB
IAC 10 Jack, Myles JAC LB
IAC 12 Jones, Aaron GBP RB
IAC 12 Woods, Robert LAR WR
IAC 13 Conner, James PIT RB
IAC 13 Davis, Jarrad DET LB
IAC 19 Mathieu, Tyrann HOU S
IAC 20 Henry, Hunter LAC TE
IAC 24 Adams, Josh PHI RB (R)
IAC 24 Brate, Cameron TBB TE
IAC 24 Parkey, Cody CHI PK
IAC 24 Uzomah, C.J. CIN TE
IAC 24 Valdes-Scantling, Marquez GBP WR (R)

Island Bombers 1 Fitzgerald, Larry ARI WR
Island Bombers 1 Hopkins, DeAndre HOU WR
Island Bombers 2 Freeman, Devonta ATL RB
Island Bombers 3 Smith, Telvin JAC LB
Island Bombers 4 Cousins, Kirk MIN QB
Island Bombers 6 Carson, Chris SEA RB
Island Bombers 8 White, James NEP RB
Island Bombers 9 Shepard, Sterling NYG WR
Island Bombers 10 Hunter, Danielle MIN DE
Island Bombers 10 Smith, Harrison MIN S
Island Bombers 15 Dalton, Andy CIN QB
Island Bombers 20 Chubb, Bradley DEN LB (R)
Island Bombers 22 Jackson, DeSean TBB WR
Island Bombers 24 Bennett, Michael PHI DE
Island Bombers 24 Byard, Kevin TEN S
Island Bombers 24 Casey, Jurrell TEN DE
Island Bombers 24 Davis, Mike SEA RB
Island Bombers 24 Fackrell, Kyler GBP LB
Island Bombers 24 Ford, Dee KCC LB
Island Bombers 24 Miller, Anthony CHI WR (R)
Island Bombers 24 Randall, Damarious CLE S
Island Bombers 24 Rosas, Aldrick NYG PK
Island Bombers 24 Vigil, Nick CIN LB
Island Bombers 24 Watson, Ben NOS TE

Oaktown 1 Bell, Le'Veon PIT RB
Oaktown 1 Green, A.J. CIN WR
Oaktown 2 Ajayi, Jay PHI RB
Oaktown 2 Coleman, Tevin ATL RB
Oaktown 3 Ertz, Zach PHI TE
Oaktown 3 Penny, Rashaad SEA RB (R)
Oaktown 5 Mack, Marlon IND RB
Oaktown 6 Griffen, Everson MIN DE
Oaktown 6 Hill, Tyreek KCC WR
Oaktown 7 Murray, Latavius MIN RB
Oaktown 7 Stafford, Matthew DET QB
Oaktown 8 Edmunds, Tremaine BUF LB (R)
Oaktown 9 Cobb, Randall GBP WR
Oaktown 10 Leonard, Darius IND LB (R)
Oaktown 17 Flacco, Joe BAL QB
Oaktown 18 Williams, Tyrell LAC WR
Oaktown 19 Addison, Mario CAR DE
Oaktown 21 Watt, T.J. PIT LB
Oaktown 23 Williams, Leonard NYJ DE
Oaktown 24 Geathers, Clayton IND S
Oaktown 24 Hopkins, Dustin WAS PK
Oaktown 24 James, Jesse PIT TE
Oaktown 24 Parker, Ron KCC S
Oaktown 24 Peterson, Patrick ARI CB
Oaktown 24 Richard, Jalen OAK RB

RotoGuru 1 Watson, Deshaun HOU QB
RotoGuru 2 Freeman, Royce DEN RB (R)
RotoGuru 3 Jones, Marvin DET WR
RotoGuru 5 Mosley, C.J. BAL LB
RotoGuru 6 Jordan, Cameron NOS DE
RotoGuru 7 Campbell, Calais JAC DE
RotoGuru 9 Woodyard, Wesley TEN LB
RotoGuru 12 Ebron, Eric IND TE
RotoGuru 12 Ekeler, Austin LAC RB
RotoGuru 12 Ridley, Calvin ATL WR (R)
RotoGuru 15 Gostkowski, Stephen NEP PK
RotoGuru 18 Lindsay, Phillip DEN RB (R)
RotoGuru 19 Darnold, Sam NYJ QB (R) (O)
RotoGuru 24 Coutee, Keke HOU WR (R) (O)
RotoGuru 24 Cunningham, Zach HOU LB
RotoGuru 24 Herndon, Chris NYJ TE (R)
RotoGuru 24 McDougald, Bradley SEA S
RotoGuru 24 Moore, David SEA WR
RotoGuru 24 Moore, Kenny IND CB
RotoGuru 24 Reynolds, Josh LAR WR
RotoGuru 24 Tannehill, Ryan MIA QB
RotoGuru 24 Ware, Spencer KCC RB
RotoGuru 24 Westbrook, Dede JAC WR

Smithfield 1 Brown, Antonio PIT WR
Smithfield 1 Johnson, David ARI RB
Smithfield 1 Jones, Julio ATL WR
Smithfield 1 Rodgers, Aaron GBP QB
Smithfield 6 Kamara, Alvin NOS RB
Smithfield 6 Sanders, Emmanuel DEN WR
Smithfield 7 Njoku, David CLE TE
Smithfield 8 Hitchens, Anthony KCC LB
Smithfield 13 Allen, Jonathan WAS DE
Smithfield 15 Clinton-Dix, Ha Ha WAS S
Smithfield 15 Sanu, Mohamed ATL WR
Smithfield 16 Cox, Fletcher PHI DT
Smithfield 17 Jefferson, Tony BAL S
Smithfield 22 Crosby, Mason GBP PK
Smithfield 24 Alexander, Lorenzo BUF LB
Smithfield 24 Amendola, Danny MIA WR
Smithfield 24 Bibbs, Kapri WAS RB
Smithfield 24 Bostic, Jon PIT LB
Smithfield 24 Brown, Zach WAS LB
Smithfield 24 Burkhead, Rex NEP RB
Smithfield 24 Gabriel, Taylor CHI WR
Smithfield 24 Jackson, Kareem HOU S
Smithfield 24 Rankins, Sheldon NOS DT

Snoop Doug 1 Gurley, Todd LAR RB
Snoop Doug 2 Cooper, Amari DAL WR
Snoop Doug 3 Lockett, Tyler SEA WR
Snoop Doug 4 Barber, Peyton TBB RB
Snoop Doug 6 Luck, Andrew IND QB
Snoop Doug 8 Chubb, Nick CLE RB (R)
Snoop Doug 9 Kupp, Cooper LAR WR
Snoop Doug 9 Winston, Jameis TBB QB
Snoop Doug 10 Pierre-Paul, Jason TBB DE
Snoop Doug 11 Howard, O.J. TBB TE
Snoop Doug 12 Cohen, Tarik CHI RB
Snoop Doug 12 Golladay, Kenny DET WR
Snoop Doug 12 Schobert, Joe CLE LB
Snoop Doug 13 Buckner, DeForest SFO DT
Snoop Doug 24 Brown, Jatavis LAC LB
Snoop Doug 24 Jackson, Adoree TEN CB
Snoop Doug 24 Ogletree, Alec NYG LB

SwinganaMiss 1 Allen, Keenan LAC WR
SwinganaMiss 1 McCaffrey, Christian CAR RB
SwinganaMiss 2 Newton, Cam CAR QB
SwinganaMiss 3 Howard, Jordan CHI RB
SwinganaMiss 3 Landry, Jarvis CLE WR
SwinganaMiss 4 Johnson, Kerryon DET RB (R) (O)
SwinganaMiss 6 Watt, J.J. HOU DE
SwinganaMiss 8 Reed, Jordan WAS TE
SwinganaMiss 11 Williams, Mike LAC WR
SwinganaMiss 12 Baker, Budda ARI S
SwinganaMiss 14 Trubisky, Mitchell CHI QB
SwinganaMiss 14 Williamson, Avery NYJ LB
SwinganaMiss 24 Dixon, Kenneth BAL RB
SwinganaMiss 24 Doyle, Jack IND TE
SwinganaMiss 24 Edwards, Gus BAL RB (R)
SwinganaMiss 24 Jackson, Lamar BAL QB (R)
SwinganaMiss 24 Johnson, John LAR S
SwinganaMiss 24 Jones, Deion ATL LB
SwinganaMiss 24 Reed, Jarran SEA DT
SwinganaMiss 24 Samuel, Curtis CAR WR
SwinganaMiss 24 Vander Esch, Leighton DAL LB (R)

Taxman 1 Barkley, Saquon NYG RB (R)
Taxman 1 Brady, Tom NEP QB
Taxman 3 Cooks, Brandin LAR WR
Taxman 4 Graham, Jimmy GBP TE
Taxman 5 Crabtree, Michael BAL WR
Taxman 6 Martinez, Blake GBP LB
Taxman 8 Lawrence, Demarcus DAL DE
Taxman 10 Crowell, Isaiah NYJ RB
Taxman 12 Collins, Alex BAL RB
Taxman 12 Powell, Bilal NYJ RB
Taxman 15 Zuerlein, Greg LAR PK
Taxman 16 Lee, Darron NYJ LB
Taxman 19 Brown, John BAL WR
Taxman 24 Clark, Frank SEA DE
Taxman 24 Doctson, Josh WAS WR
Taxman 24 Kazee, Damontae ATL S
Taxman 24 Keenum, Case DEN QB
Taxman 24 Kendricks, Eric MIN LB
Taxman 24 King, Desmond LAC CB
Taxman 24 McDonald, Vance PIT TE
Taxman 24 Montgomery, Ty BAL RB
Taxman 24 Ross, John CIN WR
Taxman 24 Smith, Jaylon DAL LB
Taxman 24 Smith, Jonnu TEN TE
Taxman 24 Wright, K.J. SEA LB

TD Dragons 1 Kelce, Travis KCC TE
TD Dragons 2 Diggs, Stefon MIN WR
TD Dragons 2 Hunt, Kareem FA* RB
TD Dragons 3 Baldwin, Doug SEA WR
TD Dragons 3 Ingram, Mark NOS RB
TD Dragons 4 Roethlisberger, Ben PIT QB
TD Dragons 5 Tate, Golden PHI WR
TD Dragons 6 Thompson, Chris WAS RB
TD Dragons 7 Ryan, Matt ATL QB
TD Dragons 9 Dunlap, Carlos CIN DE
TD Dragons 10 Clement, Corey PHI RB
TD Dragons 11 Moore, D.J. CAR WR (R)
TD Dragons 12 Adams, Jamal NYJ S
TD Dragons 12 Davis, Demario NOS LB
TD Dragons 15 Hicks, Jordan PHI LB
TD Dragons 17 Littleton, Cory LAR LB
TD Dragons 24 Bates, Jessie CIN S (R)
TD Dragons 24 Boswell, Chris PIT PK
TD Dragons 24 Boyd, Tyler CIN WR
TD Dragons 24 Brown, Jayon TEN LB
TD Dragons 24 Everett, Gerald LAR TE
TD Dragons 24 Humphries, Adam TBB WR
TD Dragons 24 Jones, Chris KCC DE
TD Dragons 24 Simmons, Justin DEN S

Twolves 1 Cook, Dalvin MIN RB
Twolves 2 McCoy, LeSean BUF RB
Twolves 2 Wilson, Russell SEA QB
Twolves 3 Robinson, Allen CHI WR
Twolves 5 Engram, Evan NYG TE
Twolves 5 Wagner, Bobby SEA LB
Twolves 6 Anderson, Robby NYJ WR
Twolves 6 Bosa, Joey LAC DE
Twolves 6 Jones, Reshad MIA S
Twolves 6 Thielen, Adam MIN WR
Twolves 7 David, Lavonte TBB LB
Twolves 8 Mariota, Marcus TEN QB
Twolves 9 Clowney, Jadeveon HOU LB
Twolves 12 Drake, Kenyan MIA RB
Twolves 15 Parker, DeVante MIA WR
Twolves 16 James, Derwin LAC S (R)
Twolves 19 Hines, Nyheim IND RB (R)
Twolves 20 Yeldon, T.J. JAC RB
Twolves 23 Cook, Jared OAK TE
Twolves 24 Bailey, Dan MIN PK
Twolves 24 Blount, LeGarrette DET RB
Twolves 24 Callaway, Antonio CLE WR (R)
Twolves 24 Clark, Kenny GBP DT
Twolves 24 Warner, Fred SFO LB (R)
10Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Thu, Jul 18, 2019, 11:58
If you need to review the keeper rules, they are listed here:
http://www66.myfantasyleague.com/2019/options?L=23784&O=26
about halfway down the page.
11I_AM_CANADIAN
      Sustainer
      ID: 01361448
      Thu, Jul 18, 2019, 12:21
Notes for my team:

Robert Woods was drafted in the 23rd Round

Tre'Quan Smith (not listed) was a FA pickup on Nov 4th

I'm not sure what the rules are on acquiring players during the playoffs? Would these guys still qualify as a keeper since they only got moved during the playoffs?

Enunwa Quincy NYJ WR
BARRON, MARK LAR LB
MCGUIRE, ELIJAH NYJ RB
ADAMS, MIKE CAR S
12artofmonk
      ID: 21511113
      Thu, Jul 18, 2019, 12:35
i am in and I will look at my list. Thank you for your work on this league.
13Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Thu, Jul 18, 2019, 13:21
[11] Players added during playoffs cannot be kept. Only players on your roster at the end of week 13. And anyone subsequently dropped during the playoffs cannot be kept either.

Woods was drafted in round 23, but he was technically a 24th rounder, pushed forward because you had more than one 24th rounder. So he retained the 24th round baseline.

You are correct about Tre'Quan Smith. He is can be kept as a 24th rounder this year. I will adjust.



14I_AM_CANADIAN
      Sustainer
      ID: 01361448
      Thu, Jul 18, 2019, 15:42
RE Guru (13):

Right... so those players weren't adds, they were drops in the playoffs. Aren't they still eligible?
15Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Thu, Jul 18, 2019, 15:48
From the rules (linked in post 10):

"Only players on a manager's roster at the end of NFL Week 13 and who remain on that roster throughout the playoffs are eligible to be kept the following season."

So,... no.
16I_AM_CANADIAN
      ID: 384502818
      Thu, Jul 18, 2019, 23:19
Right... OK, a rule is a rule... but it seems to discourage making moves in the playoffs, which I find somewhat weird.
17 Toral
      ID: 9541311
      Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 09:06

Ford Standard In.
18Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 11:03
Fear the Monkey (gurudan) emailed me that he is in.
19twolves
      ID: 12622209
      Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 10:22
I am in. Will have to look over things.
20Judy
      ID: 35493114
      Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 16:07
IAC
Sometimes somebody gets injured...
21Judy
      ID: 35493114
      Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 16:12
Remember to sign into MFL. If you need another invite, let me know...

Smithfield tigers
Twolves
G goons
Snoop d
Art
Ford standard
22 SwinganaMiss
      ID: 356281721
      Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 18:03
The only things I notice are Deion Jones, who you guys told me should keep his keeper round status (6), and Goedert who should keep his draft rd of 17. Everything else checked out.

I have a spreadsheet I will send.

23Judy
      ID: 35493114
      Sun, Jul 21, 2019, 20:12
Reminder from last year:

Massive congrats to GURU. From last to first.

Also to Smithfield for 191.98 points.

Final playoff finishes:

Champion: GURU
2. Snoop Doug
3. Art of Monk
4. GL goons
5. Smithfield Tigers
8. Swinganamiss
7. TD dragons
8. IAC
9. Luxury tax
10. Oaktown
11. Ford Standard —>. #1 pick in the 2019 draft
12. Ghostwood
13. Island bombers
14. Twolves
24Judy
      ID: 35493114
      Sun, Jul 21, 2019, 20:14
Calculations from doug last year:

Someone should double-check and post confirmation but I think this is 2019 draft order:

1. Ford Standard
2. Island bombers
3. Twolves
4. Oaktown
5. Ghostwood
6. Luxury tax
7. Art of Monk
8. IAC
9. Swinganamiss
10. GL goons
11. Snoop Doug
12. Smithfield Tigers
13. TD dragons
14. Guru

Someone want to double check?
25Judy
      ID: 35493114
      Sun, Jul 21, 2019, 20:18
How to update your draft rounds for 2019

Each player chosen in Year X and kept in subsequent years will require a manager to forfeit their original draft pick (or better) in the corresponding Year-X-draft-round the player was chosen in for the year X+1 draft. Beginning in year X+2, keeping the same player will result in the loss of their originaly draft pick (or better) corresponding to the pick from Year X divided in half, rounded down to the nearest whole number. This division and rounding shall apply each subsequent year (X+3, X+4, etc) until keeping a player requires forfeiting a first round pick every year.
26Judy
      ID: 35493114
      Sun, Jul 21, 2019, 20:21
Plain English

I think

Draft 12 in 2018
Stays in 12 for 2019
Moves to 6 for 2020
Moves to 3 for 2021
Moves to 1 for 2022

If is odd round pick, such as 11, moves to 5 for third year, 2 for fourth year...

Do I have it correct?
27Judy
      ID: 35493114
      Sun, Jul 21, 2019, 20:26
Ghostwood
Not sure how Goedert got to 24. He was drafted at 17 and never dropped.
28Doug
      ID: 466112218
      Mon, Jul 22, 2019, 20:13
Todd Gurley and Amari Cooper are on the trade block
29 SwinganaMiss
      ID: 356281721
      Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 20:24
I sent out the keeper spreadsheet. Let me know if you notice any discrepancies or didn't receive it.
30TD
      ID: 53602521
      Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 22:32
My Keeper list looks correct. Thanks for creating the spreadsheet.
31 SwinganaMiss
      ID: 356281721
      Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 17:19
I have a lot of good keeper options, so if anyone is looking to trade please hit me up.

Some of these guys I will end up keeping. Just not sure which ones yet.

QB
Trubisky (14)
Lamar Jackson (24)
Newton(2)
RB
Kerryon Johnson (4)
WR
Keenan Allen(1)
Mike Williams(11)
Curtis Samuel(24)
DL
JJ Watt (6)
LB
Deion Jones (6)
A Williamson(14)
S
Budda Baker(12)
John Johnson(24)
(Keeping McCaffrey and VanderEsch as of now)
32twolves
      ID: 12622209
      Mon, Jul 29, 2019, 21:29
The only ones on my list I am planning on keeping for sure are the 2 Vikings--Thielin and cook

twolves
33Toral
      ID: 9541311
      Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 20:25

Unfinished businessfrom last year: Are we going this year to align with RIFC and adopt their rule requiring only 1 RB in draft weeks? It can now be regarded as an established RIFC fixture.

This was their wording last year:

"For the NFL weeks when teams are on bye (weeks 4-12 in the 2018 season), starting rosters may have only one running back. If only one RB is started, then the starting receivers must be either 3 WR and 2 TE, or 4 WR and one TE."
34Judy
      ID: 35493114
      Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 21:38
Good question Toral...
36Judy
      ID: 35493114
      Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 21:41
#33
Would we ever consider having that flexibility for the whole season, not just the bye weeks?

Can of worms just opened...

Comment away... all opinions valuable.
37Judy
      ID: 35493114
      Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 21:44
Thread for keepers is here.

As well as players up for grabs, trades, etc.

http://rotoguru1.com/cgi-bin/read.pl?board=footst&thread=1177&lastpost=1565228632
38 Toral
      ID: 9541311
      Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 09:43

Available for trade. Looking for draft pick upgrades:

1 Beckham, Odell CLE WR
1 Brees, Drew NOS QB
2 Henry, Derrick TEN RB
7 Goff, Jared LAR QB
8 Roquan Smith, CHI LB
10 Kirk, Christian ARI WR
17 Hooper, Austin ATL TE
39Judy
      ID: 35493114
      Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 18:50
Ghostwood

Available for trade.

Gordon RB @1 slot

Just a slot adjustment, no player really wanted...
40Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Fri, Aug 09, 2019, 10:07
#33 - I would support extending that arrangement to this league.

41Doug
      ID: 457581120
      Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 08:14
Can we get keeper due dates and draft start date posted here? I noticed neither at top of keeper thread, seems like that'd be good reference info to post there as well.
42artofmonk
      ID: 21511113
      Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 13:30
My only question in Garoppolo. I dropped him and then re-picked him up.
43Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 14:17
You dropped and re-added Garoppolo after he was on the injured list, so he retains his original draft status. There is no reset.
44 SwinganaMiss
      ID: 356281721
      Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 16:13
Keep
McCaffery (1)
Kerryon Johnson (4)
VanderEsch(24)
Lamar Jackson (24)
2 of the 3 WR listed below

Available for trade (pick upgrade)
Trubisky (14)
Keenan Allen(1)
Mike Williams(11)
Curtis Samuel(24)
JJ Watt (6) - top 2 DL
Deion Jones (6) - top 2 LB
Budda Baker(12) - top 6 DB
John Johnson(24)- top 5 DB
45judy
      ID: 35493114
      Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 22:08
Dates:

Note: these match up with last year...

Keepers due Tuesday August 20
On thread
On MFL
Draft untimed. Aug as soon as I get keepers into proper slots...
Draft timed. Saturday August 24
Draft finished. Labor Day
46Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 08:32
Last year, we did not start the draft until Sunday. The first pick of the draft was on Sunday, Aug 24 at 1:54pm.

We still finished it before Labor Day.

I suggest we stick with that draft schedule.

47Toral
      ID: 9541311
      Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 09:07

1. Agree with Guru 46 re draft schedule. It would help if the keeper deadline was Wednesday rather than Tuesday as well.

2. Could we get a vote or decision on 33? It might affect people's keepers:

"For the NFL weeks when teams are on bye (weeks 4-12 in the 2018 season), starting rosters may have only one running back. If only one RB is started, then the starting receivers must be either 3 WR and 2 TE, or 4 WR and one TE."
48GoatLocker
      ID: 206272812
      Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 10:26
Ditto on agreeing for 33.
49GoatLocker
      ID: 206272812
      Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 10:29
On 46, I would like to see it start Saturday 24 Aug, but that is just me due to flying on 30 Aug.
Will make it work though no matter when we start.
50I_AM_CANADIAN
      ID: 384502818
      Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 12:16
I'm all for mimic'ing the RIFC (33).

Good with whatever you guys decide on the draft schedule.
51Doug
      ID: 457581120
      Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 15:27
FYI I'll be finishing up vacation visiting my family on the 24th (then flying a red-eye home with kids) so I may not be super quick-on-the-trigger first day of the draft, but will of course try to use queues, etc. to the extent I reasonably can.
52twolves
      ID: 12622209
      Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 16:07
I am okay with RIFC rules but 2 RB every week okay too.

Prefer earlier start if possible since will be totally out of contact from Aug 31am for probably 24 hours plus.
53 GoatLocker
      ID: 206272812
      Sat, Aug 17, 2019, 19:38
Not quite sure which way I am going yet, but 4 players that are available for Trade:

Mike Evans TBB WR (1)
T.Y. Hilton IND WR (1)
Myles Garrett CLE DE (6)
Philip Rivers LAC QB (6)

GL
54 SwinganaMiss
      ID: 402572821
      Wed, Aug 21, 2019, 13:46
What is the rule if I have keepers in rd 2,3, and 3?
Do I have to use rounds 1,2,3 or can I use 2,3,4?
55GoatLocker
      ID: 206272812
      Wed, Aug 21, 2019, 16:05
Have we seen or heard anything at all from GuruDan?
56fear the monkey
      ID: 241301817
      Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 15:01
gurudan is smithfield tigers
57GoatLocker
      ID: 206272812
      Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 18:21
Got it.
58I_AM_CANADIAN
      ID: 52672116
      Mon, Aug 26, 2019, 20:59
Fyi - commish has asked me to wait on this pick... Am around and will pick promptly once have the ok
59 taxman
      SuperDude
      ID: 029463114
      Mon, Aug 26, 2019, 21:40
Trying to text commish but my phone is dead.

I am taking Christian Kirk, WR, Ariz @ 6.06
60judy
      ID: 35493114
      Mon, Aug 26, 2019, 23:00
59
All done.
61 taxman
      SuperDude
      ID: 029463114
      Wed, Aug 28, 2019, 21:28
Is anybody going to open a discussion about Toral's e-mail.

I'll start.

The trades of which Toral complains, although not prohibited, IMHO, are absolutely incompatible with this leagues determination of draft positions based on prior years standings. That another manager finishes ahead of me in the standings, yet draft prior to me in up to 6 rounds is wrong.

Comments?? Please.

btw .. I participated in such trades last season. Not my proudest moment. I didn't pose the trade..but I accepted the offer.

If you want to go off board, everyone's e-mail address is in MFL.

62Doug
      ID: 466112218
      Wed, Aug 28, 2019, 22:17
I agree with Tax. Furthermore if Tax is at slot 7 and I'm at slot 14, I'm probably willing to offer more for the pick in the 1 slot because it's a bigger upgrade for me... but that "more" is still modest because the player trading out of 1 isn't actually having to give anything up... they're getting whatever upgrade we offer in exchange for free, essentially. It doesn't hurt them any more to move down to 14 than to 7. So it creates a weird trading valuation.

Again, I was sufficiently annoyed by this in the past that I wasn't going to get caught holding the short end of the stick this year and decided to get proactive about seeking out those trades myself (also in a better position to do so this year I believe).

I think we should change the rule for future years... generally speaking I think it should be you have to give up your originally slotted pick "or better"... not just "any slot in the same round".

Slight caveat there though, say I do a couple trades this season and at the end of it wind up with Guru's 1st rounder next year instead of my own. If I'm in the 5 slot and Guru's in the 6 slot, technically then I can't keep a 1st rounder unless I trade up into the top 5. And say all those teams either have 1st round keepers or know they have me over a barrel, they can force me to pay a king's ransom or even force my 1st round keeper cost player(s) back into the draft pool by not trading with me.

I think there are some other possible unintended consequences like this if we make a strict "your slotted pick or better" rule with no revision... I might make some trades through the year and end up with Guru's 1st rounder next year. If he finishes 1 or more slots ahead of me in the standings, I am locked out of keeping any round-1-cost players, because his pick (say 1.09) isn't as good as my slot (1.08 in this example). So now I've got to trade up into the top 8 to be able to keep a player, but the team I trade with will likewise not be able to keep a round-1-cost player. It just seems like there could be some bad outcomes.

The other argument that was made against this is in the past is it advantages the winning teams in a sense... the last place team has to give up 2.01 to keep a round-2-cost keeper, whereas the fantasy bowl winner would only have to give up 2.14 to keep the same player... essentially a lower opportunity cost. IIRC the argument was the 2.01 team should be able to trade back in the round to get some compensation for their draft slot while still keeping their 2nd rounder. I see the logic of that, but it does lead to the current-year outcome, which I think is worse than the increased opportunity cost.
63Doug
      ID: 466112218
      Wed, Aug 28, 2019, 22:20
Sorry was working through that post and wound up with 2 versions of same paragraph basically... but the points stand.
64Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Wed, Aug 28, 2019, 22:55
I'm not enamored with the "same pick or better" rule change either, especially because it gets really complicated to track. Even the current system of assigning keeper draft picks is pretty complex.

I suppose we could adopt a less rigid rule that says that any trade of draft picks that derives value primarily based on shifting keeper picks to later in each round is not allowed. But that raises issues of subjective interpretation. The trades in question from this year would be easy decisions, however.

The problem is not that these trades aren't win-win. Clearly, they are. The problem is that when such a trade is executed, the other 12 teams in the league lose some value.
65judy
      ID: 35493114
      Wed, Aug 28, 2019, 22:58
Stay on board. Ideas flow better...email is hard to follow.

Now this whole trade thing has bme thoroughly confused...I haven’t had time to really look at it so I am depending upon you guys to work it out (so I understand it!!!)
66taxman
      SuperDude
      ID: 029463114
      Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 00:06
succinct Dave

The problem is that when such a trade is executed, the other 12 teams in the league lose some value

Thus the simple ethical question.

Is the game Fantasy Football or is it how can I game my competitors.

This s/b an easy question folks. Lets play Fantasy Football.
67taxman
      SuperDude
      ID: 029463114
      Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 00:28
Swinginamis finished 6th in 2018 and I finished in 9th.

this round 12, swinginamis is drafting at 12.03, a trade advantaged swap with Twolves, while I am drafting at 12.06. Twolves now has the 12.09 slot for his Keeper. W/o the trade, there would have been a keeper @ 12.03, thus no draft pick would have occurred screwing (gaming) Oaktown, Judy, me and Art out of 1 player drafted in front of us by a team finishing ahead of us last year.

I can understand Toral's frustration. This is a step past lack of ethics. I apologize for having duped my friends last year with this self serving "gaming" transaction.

Do you get it Judy? You have been gamed also

Not ethical. Not fair play. This rule must be changed. For this draft pick, I have been gamed out of a pick as happened in several other rounds in this draft.
68Doug
      ID: 466112218
      Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 00:48
Took a quick look at 2017 and the Cooper/Freeman and Parker/Church trades look like the may have had slot swaps of a similar nature, but would need to look at that year's keepers to confirm.

Re: 64, maybe could make that less subjective by removing the word "primarily" and a few others... just "any trade that derives value based on shifting keeper picks to later in a given round is not allowed." It shouldn't matter if that's the "primary" value or if it's one piece of a package... it's either allowed or it's not.
69Doug
      ID: 11740813
      Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 01:13
I support the change but the wording is important to avoid unintended consequences as noted above, and in particular I think the wording in the email thread would be problematic.

I also understand Nathan’s points from the email thread about providing trade value to the early-slotted teams, I just think the proposed change is a preferable system. Neither is perfect, but I don’t quite share Tax or Toral’s characterizations of it as somehow “unethical” or a travesty or whatever... it’s just a question of which set of rules we want to play by. Whatever we decide, as long as you’re playing within those rules go ahead and compete as hard as you can.
70GoatLocker
      ID: 206272812
      Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 01:53
OK all, been busy getting ready for trip. I read it all and understand both sides. I don't think we have to fix it now, but any changes should be decided before the end of the season and then brought into being for next season.

GL
71artofmonk
      ID: 21511113
      Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 09:55
It almost seems like collusion happening. What picks can I trade with team A to improve my draft picks and minimize the affect on what picks, I lose with my keepers. It is within the rules, but a little shady. Just imagine if this was a money league. I will admitted I have played in the gray area at times as well.

Let's face it we are fantasy sports fanatics. This league is purely for sick and addicted people. No money or prizes are given out. This is for fun. I certainly do feel that a couple of picks in a round matter, so it should be stopped for the future. I like both Taxman and Doug's suggestions. I don't know any of you and I don't spend too much time on the message board anymore, but I love playing in this league. I am a sick, twisted individual that loves playing fantasy sports.
72Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 10:35
[68] I like the simplicity. I think it has the advantage of not unduly complicating things or creating unforseen unintended consequences.

any trade that derives value based on shifting keeper picks to later in a given round is not allowed..

I assume this would have to be evaluated at the time of the trade? How about a trade that involved a swap of picks for the next season (a 2019 trade involving 2020 picks)?
73Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 12:25
Toral and I exchanged a few emails this morning. I'll keep the comments private - but suffice it to say we are moving on...

Toral reiterated that he wants to exit the league ASAP, but is willing to continue through the draft if needed to avoid disruption. I mentioned that I had asked my son (Jason - aka Jaydog) if he was willing to take over the team, and he (Jaydog) agreed. So, Toral will immediately step aside and Jaydog will take over.

Jaydog has multiple years of experience in the RIFC format, so he is completely familiar with the setup and idiosyncrasies. He'll need to be schooled in the keeper rules, but that doesn't really matter for now.

74Doug
      ID: 466112218
      Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 12:52
Re: 72 I suppose it's possible that late in the season one could be anticipating their keepers for next year, have a good sense of the standings, who other players keepers are likely to be, etc. and make a trade based on that perception... but I'm not overly worried about it. In my experience so much changes each offseason with individual player valuations, injuries, trades, drafts, etc. that if I guessed at the end of season who my keepers would be the following preseason I'd probably get 3-4 out of 6 right most years. Lots of uncertainty.

But if mid-season I want to trade for someone's "anticipated early 1st" next year (because I don't anticipate having a 1st round cost keeper) should that be allowed? Seems not really... it's basically the same thing as doing the pick swap in the preseason... the timing of it shouldn't matter.

So at some point maybe we just go on the honor system to an extent, but that requires we come to a consensus on whether the rules intend to allow for this type of pick swap or not. Status quo it seems there was implicit agreement it was allowed (as it's not a new thing and half the league has been in one trade or another like this). I'll admit it seems I took it to new heights this year, but I guess to me it's not a question of degree... it's either cool or not cool and status quo has been "cool".

We have some league members who see this type of trading as important value maximization for the lower-performing teams and should be preserved, and some who see it as unethical/travesty/shady/ and should be removed. I understand both perspectives and tend towards the latter, but minus the value judgements about it... if it's within the understood intent of the rules, then play by those rules. Again, we just need to common understanding on the intent of the rules, maybe make as clear a written rule as w can about it, and then I think we should be able to rely on folks to comply with the both the written rule and intent (hopefully) given how much it's been discussed. So at this point do we want to do a vote, just so we're clear for next year (and trades that might happen during this season involving next year's picks)?

Also I know we stopped the clock but I thought the draft was going to proceed? Can we turn the clock back on now that we have a replacement owner?
75Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 12:57
We already have a rule that states
"Draft picks in rounds 1 through 5 may only be traded beginning 1 month prior to keeper declarations and during the draft itself each summer."
So that particular concern would only related to rounds 6 & higher, as the rules currently stand.

76Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 12:58
Draft should proceed. Clock can be restarted after the next pick is made.
77judy
      ID: 35493114
      Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 13:13
Do I understand this as a partial solution?

I have pick # x.03 based upon my finish at the end of the previous season.
All my keepers must go into the x.03 slot of the round they belong in...per our rules

Do we want to add this idea (I am just fishing here):

After distribution of keepers (down for round 1, up from 24, 455–> 345 etc,), no manager may have more than one keeper per round no matter how obtained. Keepers must be placed into draft slot as determined by previous year’s finish.

So 3 keeps end up in round 1, they become 1.03, 2.03, 3.03,

Keep in round 17 is 17.03

2 keeps in round 24 become 23.03, 24.03.

Or does this happen any way?

Still trying to understand this. Way too busy now to really look at it.
78GoatLocker
      ID: 206272812
      Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 13:14
I am continuing to follow all of this. Sounds good.
79taxman
      SuperDude
      ID: 029463114
      Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 13:23
re:72 I'm OK with different years..as long as not tied to keepers either prospective or current.




80Doug
      ID: 466112218
      Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 13:52
OK, so to be clear... IF we adopt the italicized rule in #68:

Suppose in week 10 I have a player I expect to keep in round 6 next year (2020), and I'm doing poorly this year (will have an early draft slot)... can I propose a trade to another team (doing better than I am thus with a later slot) that includes swapping 6th round picks? My understanding is no, I cannot... even if the trade it involves other components, I'm not allowed to include a component of the deal (swapping 6th rounders) which is predicated on being able to use a late-round 6th on my keeper next year.

But what if I think there's only a very slight chance that I will keep my 6th rounder next year? Most likely I'm offering the pick swap based on actual value (expecting to use the 6th round pick on drafting a player, but taking that downgrade as part of what I'm giving up in the deal)... but then later on I wind up using it for keeper even though I wasn't originally intending to (maybe my 6th round cost player had an unexpected significant increase in projections due to trade or injury to other player ahead of him, etc. in the offseason, etc.) To me that seems ok... as long as the "intent" at the time of trade wasn't to swap for keeper purposes. But that's where it gets into a gray area and we need to rely on the honor system IMO... but most importantly we all need to be on the same page about these expectations.
81Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 15:00
I would say that if a trade of future draft picks does not include some other compensating value such that it seems clear that keeper-pick-swapping was the motivation, then it should be disallowed. But if other considerations are included in the deal, it should probably be OK.

Having said that, the 6th round is a frequent keeper slot, since it derives from someone originally kept as a 24th rounder. Seven keepers this year commanded a 6th rounder.

However, there is a lot of risk in proposing a trade using this strategy. Look at my 2018 team as Exhibit A. As of week #12 last year, I appeared to be in line for a toilet bowl pick in 2019, which could have been #1 overall. But I somehow eked into the #8 playoff slot by a few points on the final week, and then converted that spot into the league title. So my potential #1 pick became a #14 pick. I know, that's the exception, not the rule.

Regardless, any trade can be protested during the season and put to a vote. So if a trade has a foul smell, there is a basis for overturning it.
82SwinganaMiss
      ID: 477462019
      Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 16:14
This is very interesting narrative. Noteworthy that the people talking about it are primarily those that have participated in this travesty....anyway. What about anyone else? I want to hear more opinions.
but first....
[64/66]The problem is that when such a trade is executed, the other 12 teams in the league lose some value.

"2 teams win and 12 teams lose some value" is a problem? Then we should disable all keeper/player trades also…

12 teams "lost value" when OBJ was traded (ironically from Toral to taxman), because the player pool was reduced by one player. So, I had no chance to get Jacobs/Diggs/Williams/Henry. One of those would have been available to me at the 5th actual pick, had OBJ still been in the pool.

So, let's eliminate all trades between the trade deadline and keeper declaration the following year. This will close up any potential "exploit".

83SwinganaMiss
      ID: 477462019
      Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 16:23
[67]
It's too bad that someone feels gamed because they don't get to move up a spot in the draft. The person with 12.06 should not feel so entitled to an extra player in the pool, just because twolves wants to use a keeper in rd 12. I suggest that 12.06 expect to get the 6th pick in rd 12, and they won't feel gamed.
84SwinganaMiss
      ID: 477462019
      Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 16:48
[67/2]
As I already mentioned, I paid for the upgrade from 12.09 to 12.03, by sacrificing in other rounds. Was it wrong of me?

Sorry twolves, it sounds like the reward for finishing low in the standings will be using higher picks for your keepers than almost anyone else! I don't really think that was the intention, but it's what many people seem to be happy with. Heaven forbid you try to leverage your picks to improve your team.
85I_AM_CANADIAN
      ID: 384502818
      Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 17:51
RE 81: "So if a trade has a foul smell, there is a basis for overturning it."

I agree. We probably should have spoken up about this when we saw the trades go through.

My issue was, there was a little bit of activity going on, I was distracted, and truthfully thought that there was a chance that this was somehow "part of the process", not an issue of two managers re-positioning themselves in more favorable draft slots.

I don't really want to say more, so as to not blow this out of proportion... I think we just need to come up with a vote of how to deal with it, vote, and move on.
86TD
      ID: 53602521
      Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 21:41
I did not pay any attention to the trades or understand the issue until it was brought up yesterday. I saw last weeks poll concerning the trades, but without any explanation I just ignored it.

I think we should deal with this now so it will be resolved before next seasons draft.

I need to get a better understanding of the issue before giving an opinion on what if any rule changes should be made.
87SwinganaMiss
      ID: 402572821
      Fri, Aug 30, 2019, 08:09
Reality check….

Trading a first rd player (that you don't want to keep) for an eighth round pick is far more detrimental to the competitive balance of the league (than trading up/down in keeper rounds).

Being allowed to keep (in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th round, etc.) a player that you acquired in this manner is far more damaging to the competitive balance of the league (than trading up/down in keeper rounds).


If we are going to re-evaluate keeper/trading rules---I suggest that we rethink about how to discourage this kind of dumping/hoarding of 1st rd talent.

Again, we could

1. Eliminate trades between trade deadline and keeper deadline.

2. Limit the contract of players traded between Trade Deadline and Keeper Deadline to one year. After the one year, they are not eligible for keeping.

Please throw out ideas/thoughts.
88Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Fri, Aug 30, 2019, 12:11
[87] "Trading a first rd player (that you don't want to keep) for an eighth round pick is far more detrimental to the competitive balance of the league (than trading up/down in keeper rounds)."

I'm totally missing your point - so maybe I misunderstand the statement altogether. If you trade a "first round player" for an 8th round pick, the team receiving the first round player must forfeit a first round pick to keep him.
89SwinganaMiss
      ID: 402572821
      Fri, Aug 30, 2019, 15:09
Here is the scenario…

Manager A has the consensus #1 overall RB.

Manager B has the consensus #1 dynasty WR, but also the 1.01 draft pick. So, they won't want to keep #1WR.

So, Manager A trades an 8th rd pick and now has the rights to #1WR, and can keep him w/ his 2nd rd pick.

Manager C has the #8 overall RB, but he requires a rd 1 keeper, so Manager C doesn't want to keep him.

So, Manager A trades a 12th rd pick and now has the rights to #8RB, and can keep him w/ his 3rd rd pick.

Manager D has a top #7 WR, but he requires a rd 1 keeper, so he doesn't want to keep him.

So, Manager A trades a 13th rd pick and now has the rights to #7WR, and can keep him w/ his 4th pick.

Manager A has now accumulated a Super Team of 1st rd draft picks for the price of 8th, 12th, and 13th rd picks. Manager A can keep these 4 top-16 players for their 1,2,3,4 picks for as long as they are viable.

When one of them gets "expendable", Manager A can trade another mid-rd pick to get another top 16 pick and dump the old guy.



This can easily happen with the current rules.

So, I am suggesting that you prevent it by limiting the number of years that players acquired in this way (between Trade Deadline and Keeper Deadline) can be kept.

I know you guys like the ability to keep 4 #1s with rd 1,2,3,4 picks, and it makes sense--if someone was savvy enough to draft the players and hold them until they become #1 keepers. But it's not the same (feels like gaming the system) if the Manager accumulates these players by tossing away mid-rd picks.



Say next year I win the toilet bowl and get the 1.01 pick. I decide to dump McCaffery to taxman for a 7th rd pick.

Good luck against a super team with Saquan, McCaffery, and OBJ…..

(And a Second super team of DJ, Kamara, Julio, Rodgers, and AB.)



All that being said, this is what #87 really boils down to…

Rules which promote creation of super teams are a bigger risk to fun (competitive balance) than whatever advantage you think I gained or you lost from a 12.3/12.9 pick swap.
90Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Fri, Aug 30, 2019, 15:31
OK - but the opportunity cost of that series of trades wasn't really just picks in rounds 8, 12, and 13. That team also had to forego picks in rounds 2, 3, and 4. Admittedly, in return he gets three #1 candidates.

It seems as though your argument here is "there is another trading opportunity in this league that may also disrupt competitive balance, so therefore do we really need to fix the draft-pick swap situation?"

Without debating the relative merits/costs of the two situations, I think one big difference is that the "keeper pick swap strategy" produces a riskless arbitrage, and (as has been demonstrated this year) is pretty easy to identify and execute.

The other strategy, if shrewdly enacted, may generate more value. But it comes with some risk. And it's more difficult to exploit, at least in the extreme.
91SwinganaMiss
      ID: 356281721
      Fri, Aug 30, 2019, 22:13
Wow, I will have to look up "riskless arbitrage".....ugh!

Let me be clear (Guru)....
I don't think you, Doug, I, etc. did anything wrong by moving up in the draft by offering something of value to another Manager. This is "trading". [see 82/84] Contrary to what taxman might think, he is not entitled to "move up" in rd 12 just because someone has a keeper in front of him. [see 83]

Likewise, I don't think IB, twolves, Doug, etc. did anything wrong by leveraging their own draft picks to move back and "get some value elsewhere". twolves moved back from 12.3 to 12.9, but is still paying more for a 12th rd keeper than Guru at 12.14. [see 84] Not sure why anyone would think what he did was unfair either.

Since I can't find any fault with the traders (up or down), if someone can really explain who was in the wrong regarding these pick swaps, I would love to hear this.
Arguments like "2 teams benefit, 12 teams lose value" don't ring true when a Beckham swap is clearly/obviously beneficial to 2 teams and detrimental to 12. [see 82]
Arguments like "I have one less player to pick from" don't ring true either, since the same thing can be said for the OBJ trade. [ see 82]

I would argue that the Beckham trade of this year, and the Julio Jones trade from a couple of years back, are for more detrimental. Again, no rule against them, but there is a very clear potential for abuse. Even the Beckham trade on its own hurts the league more than any trade that Doug or I executed....if people objectively look at it. (So, everybody please think objectively about it! ) Let's not be too hasty/reactive. Let's try to be fair to all teams.

I don't mind debating any rules and voting on any rules. Like I said previously, I will follow all the rules.
I figure if we are going to discuss pick swap rule change, we should also revisit Rd 1 Keeper rules because I find them much more problematic.
I am proposing a way to clean up the Rd 1 keeper rule before it gets further abused, just like you all are trying to propose some pick swap rule to prevent whatever travesty you think has occurred.
92SwinganaMiss
      ID: 356281721
      Sat, Aug 31, 2019, 07:46
What Is Arbitrage?
Arbitrage is basically buying a security in one market and simultaneously selling it in another market at a higher price, thereby profiting from the temporary difference in prices. This is considered a risk-free profit for the investor/trader.


So, I guess you think that twolves is garnering risk-free profit by trading down in rd 12. I suppose that's true.
However, twolves has a higher cost already built into his asset.
He is being charged 12.03 to keep, while Guru is only being charged 12.14 to keep. twolves is actually getting a bum deal to begin with, and allowing him to trade down allows him to pay a "more fair" price.

If I am paying 10% broker fees, and you are paying 1% broker fee---you are going to have a much easier time making money. The fact that you don't want me to be able to negotiate my broker fee down to 3,4, maybe 5%, tells me that you aren't interested in maintaining a "fair market".

93twolves
      SuperDude
      ID: 811161317
      Sat, Aug 31, 2019, 10:20
I will be gone starting 4pm ET with no internet for about 24 hours. Will try to fill in a few draft slots.
94Doug
      ID: 466112218
      Sun, Sep 01, 2019, 00:14
Re: 81 I don't think the salient point is whether other compensation was involved... shouldn't matter if it's a 2-player deal or 12-player deal or no-player deal... if part of the compensation involved swapping slots in a round where you are likely to have a keeper, that's either allowed or it isn't... whether it's a value-add as part of a larger compensation package or the primary value-add should be moot... the question is basically "can a manager 'trade down' slots in a round they anticipate having a keeper"?

That's a simple yes or no we're yet to decide on, as there's clearly not a consensus on the issue, and we haven't yet gone to a vote to decide.
95TD
      ID: 53602521
      Sun, Sep 01, 2019, 15:00
RE:89

To prevent the scenario described, add a stipulation to this rule.

If there are two or more players that achieve first round keeper status, they may be kept in exchange for forfeiting the same number of picks at the front of the draft. Keep 3 first round players, forfeit the first 3 picks. Keep 5, forfeit the first 5 picks. If a team is keeping multiple players under this "front of the draft" rule, that team must own picks for each of the associated keeper rounds (i.e., as it would if no picks were traded away) or better. For example, if a team keeps two first round players, it must own at least a 1st and 2nd round pick. If one of those picks has been traded away, picks of equal rounds (or better) must be acquired, or the related players may not be kept.

Do not allow this for first round keeper status players acquired in a trade.

If a first round keeper status player was acquired in a trade and kept, the teams first round pick is forfeited, and the team cannot keep any other first round keeper status players.
96Doug
      ID: 466112218
      Wed, Oct 09, 2019, 17:11
2 things:

1) Do we want to revisit this preseason discussion and come to conclusion on what adjustments (if any) we want to make going forward?

2) I want to confirm my understanding here: I have two players... Hunter Henry and Todd Davis... who were drafted, dropped, and who I later acquired (post-following-Wednesday-waivers). They both therefore have "undrafted" status wrt to keeper cost (i.e., a 24th rounder). I read the rules on the site and pretty sure that's correct. Also Todd Davis in particular I was the original drafter/owner who dropped and later re-acquired, but I don't see that it matters as long as he cleared 1+ rounds of Wednesday Waivers.

And by contrast I picked up Grady Jarrett on a Friday, 2 days after Guru dropped him, so he would cost me whatever the original round Guru drafted him since he didn't go through Weds waivers... although in this case Guru picked him up as an undrafted FA so again winds up being a 24th round cost keeper.
97Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Wed, Oct 09, 2019, 22:47
1) we should reach closure, to be sure. I think someone needs to craft a specific proposal for a vote.

2) I believe your interpretations are all correct.
98TD
      ID: 53602521
      Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 09:43
1) I am OK with leaving the rules as is. But will consider any crafted proposal.

If nobody crafts a proposal, that means everyone is OK with the possibility of similar draft pick swaps next season.
99I_AM_CANADIAN
      Sustainer
      ID: 01361448
      Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 11:06
I think as long as everyone is aware, there is less to complain about.
100Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 12:32
How about a simple rule like this? "Trades involving draft picks that attempt to generate value by shifting keeper picks later in any round are not allowed."
101TD
      ID: 53602521
      Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 13:15
Re: 100

Not sure how this can be easily enforced during the draft. Our rules state:

During the draft, trades may include draft picks. Trades will normally be approved immediately by the Commissioner, assuming they are reasonably balanced. If league managers believe an announced trade is unbalanced, they should protest the trade ASAP.

After the draft, trades will be subject to a review period.


I think it is too difficult for the commissioner to enforce this during the draft.
102Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 14:48
I disagree.

First, I think that as long as the concept is included in our rules, it will largely be self-policed.

And, as practical matter, once the draft starts, there is no automatic way make this type of trade, since keepers will already be locked into specific picks. To make this type of trade during the draft would require commissioner intervention.
103TD
      ID: 53602521
      Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 22:44
Then I am in favor of implementing this simple rule change. Was just concerned with these type of trades occurring without commissioner intervention during the draft.
104twolves
      ID: 488232311
      Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 10:00
I think should not change rule.
105 SwinganaMiss
      ID: 356281721
      Mon, Oct 14x, 2019, 17:20
The fact that some people are trying so hard to manufacture a rule specifically for "pick swaps" tells me that something is wrong.

There are thousands of people playing keeper leagues which demand forfeiting of x rd draft picks for keepers. How come no one can provide an example of a rule that they use or that they know others use?
Maybe the rules don't exist, and "draft pick swaps" are pretty normal.
Or, perhaps they have addressed this scenario in some other way (like preventing trades between the trade deadline and keeper deadline altogether).

FWIW, I even contacted the FFTODAY website, trying to get some feedback. There wasn't a huge response, but you can find the info here....
Original Question (halfway down this page): https://fftoday.com/articles/davis/19_q&a_wk1_trading.html
Responses/Followups: https://fftoday.com/articles/davis/19_q&a_wk2_weekly_payouts.html
Forum post: https://www.fftodayforums.com/forum/topic/488520-keeper-rules-trading-picks/
106 SwinganaMiss
      ID: 356281721
      Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 20:08
Maybe some people here use twitter. Maybe you have heard of Scott Fish (@ScottFish24). He runs the Scott Fish Bowl, and raises tens of thousands of of dollars for fantasycares.net (Toys for Tots).
I asked him about this scenario because he also runs SafeLeagues, a site which is commissioner for hundreds (probably thousands) of fantasy football leagues. I think he has a pretty good handle on what is normal, and what is "a travesty".

Here is what he had to say....

This (pick swaps) is actually pretty common in keeper leagues and not just a strategy employed by people, but it generally creates more trading and activity. I will say I have seen leagues outlaw it a couple of ways if your league prefers. The main way is (i'll example it)
If you keep Nick Chubb for your 4th rounder. And you ALREADY traded away your personal 4th rounder (let's say you traded down to 4.12)... you must relinquish your THIRD rounder for Chubb because you don't have your 4th anymore.
That is a common setup for leagues that don't allow it, but I will say it is common (to allow pick swaps). To be honest, both ways are common. I've seen both a lot.
I've also even seen this in leagues that allow it... (another example) ---- If a team wants to keep Chubb for a 4th, but they traded their 4th away and do not have a 4th... instead of giving up the 3rd for Chubb... they go out and trade for a 4th just to maintain their 3rd.
I tend to lean on the side of allowing it because I like more activity in my leagues and I also hate deterring trading. If you've followed my work long enough, you know I'm generally on the side of owner freedom to manage their teams as they see fit to best compete either now or in the future. This is really a complete preference call and I've seen both ways done enough not to say there is a "right way" to do it.

and then he also said this...

... Yeah, they (pick swaps) aren't (a travesty). It's actually really common in keeper leagues. I'm honestly not sure of exact data on it... I can just tell you I've seen it and heard of it enough to know that it's very common. This one is definitely a preference call, it's not even remotely a travesty. I get others having a preference the other way, as it's also out there... but I just feel allowing it creates more activity and doesn't deter trading as much.


Wanted to provide (what I consider to be) an expert opinion on the subject. It's pretty clear that it's not the travesty that some people are suggesting. Some leagues want to "outlaw it", but many others embrace it as a means to create more activity, more trades, and more strategy. Active managers and thoughtful strategy are some things I really like about Fantasy Football. So let's play some FF!
107Doug
      ID: 466112218
      Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 09:04
Thanks for sharing all that info.

I think I stated this earlier, but I don't have a strong preference about it... I was originally in the "outlaw it" camp a couple years back when I first observed it, but since it was deemed acceptable by the league (I thought) then I decided to try and capitalize on the opportunity. Like the guy you reference above, I can see it both ways and will try and maximize my team's performance within the constraints of whatever rules we agree on.

I probably still lean slightly towards "outlaw it", but that lean is even slighter than it was before with the points made about encouraging more trading, etc. Maybe the outcome of this year is that it brought a spotlight onto an issue that many hadn't really paid full attention to, and in future years (if we decide to maintain it) there will be even more robust pick swap activity. *shrug*
108judy
      ID: 35493114
      Tue, Dec 24, 2019, 10:03
Congrats to

ISLAND BOMBERS, 2019 RG14 CHAMPION!

Runner up: Oaktown Raiders

Consolation winner and #1 draft slot: Ghostwood

Full field finishes:
1. Island Bombers
2. Oaktown Raiders
3. IAC
4. Rotoguru
5. Swinganamiss
6. Snoop doug
7. TD Dragons
8. Ford Standard
9. Art of monk
10. Twolves
11. Ghostwood
12. Luxury Tax
13. Smithfield tigers
14. Goatlocker

Swinganamiss had:
Best season record 20-6
Most total points for 1848.88
Last day high point. 150.22

Thanks to all for a smooth season.
109judy
      ID: 35493114
      Tue, Dec 24, 2019, 10:07
Items for 2020.

We need to solve the draft trades issue before next season. For some reason, even though I have read thru the posts, I still don’t “get it” so I need someone to step up and explain it to us so we can make a decision for 2020.

I would also like to change the playoff format so that the bottom six teams all get to play in one consolation event for the first draft pick, right now teams that finish 9/10 do not get full participation in the brackets.

If anyone knows now that he is not coming back for 2020 please let us know.

Have a safe, happy holiday.

Go EAGLES, underdogs again...
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