- How many players are we allowed to keep from year to year? Limitations? - What type of league will this be? H2H, Total Pts, Roto YTD, Roto Week2Week? - How should free agency work? What limitations/restrictions?
4
Doug
ID: 21922183 Tue, Jul 23, 2002, 23:00
Spreadsheet only shows stats for QB passing... I assume they must get fantasy points for rushing yards/TDs as well, but it's just not shown here, right? AP10, could you also confirm 10 yards rushing = 1 point? We've sorta assumed it, but it hasn't been in writing yet in any of the scoring tables. Also, please confirm that you're equating "fumbles" with INTs at -3 points each, NOT "fumbles lost". Either stat is cool with me... I'm just checkin'.
Punters - I still think it makes sense to include average as a scoring stat (outlined previously). It's not their fault if they're always kicking from their own red zone, thus unable to score TBs or "Inside the 20s". They should at least be able to get points based on average in that case. Just my two cents, not like I'm all tweaked out over how we're gonna score punters. =-)
Special Teams - It seems a bit odd to me to give 1 point per return... I realize on a punt that good blocking can be the difference between a return and a fair catch, but it seems this is also heavily determined by the kick of the opposing punter, field position, etc... and the number of kickoff returns you have depends on the opposing kickers leg strength and how many times your defense lets the opponent score, but isn't really reflective of any special teams skill. My two cents would be to drop the returns stat and add another couple tiers to the return yardage scales (such as KR avg 23-26.99 = 4, 27-31.99 = 5, 32+ = 6...) Also maybe give a couple points to blocked punts and FGs.
OL scoring - I like the scheme, but I think the scale should it should continue further down, at least to the <100 yds rushing = 9 points level if not another tier at <80 = 7 or so. Also, breaking the 200 yd barrier in rushing deserves at least a bonus point I think... without a few more of these tiers there won't be enough variance in the scores at the OL position I think.
Roster - I'm pretty adamant that we should be consistent with "normal" or "deep" on offense and defense to keep the offense/defense points somewhat balanced... either "normal" 8 man offense with a 3-3-3 D, or "deep" 11 man offense with a 4-3-4 D... whichever option the group prefers, but not an 8 man O with with 4-3-4 D.
Free agency - refer to my previous post about waivers... I'd vote the deadline for making waivers claims being Wednesday night at midnight PST (3am Thurs. EST)... assuming the software handles this and we see the results immediately as opposed to someone having to figure it out by hand the next morning. That way if there's a Thursday game, you still have all day to adjust your lineup with your new players, and several days in most cases. Anyone dropped during the waivers process is then on waivers until next week's waiver deadline, then becomes a free agent. Anyone dropped mid-week is on waivers that week as well as the next "full" week (if unclaimed the first time around), such that every player must spend at least 7 full days on waivers, but no more than 13, before becoming a free agent.
League Scoring System - I like the H2H system, but Total Points is ok with me too. I could be convinced to go Roto, but only with hard lobbying. =-)
Spreadsheet : Yes, QB will receive the same rushing stats as RB's even though it isnt listed in the spreadsheet. 10 yds rushing = 1 pt. It was listed in the previous thread, but somehow was omitted when I copied it over.
Punters : I dont have the points to work with if I wanted to incorporate distance into the equation. I could go 1-TB/2-I20/1-Dn then try to mix in distance, but I would then only have 3-5 pts to work with for varying distances. I'm not sure this would even be worthwhile. I think I'll let it be unless if others raise similar complaints.
Special Teams : I like your suggestions. After I proposed my scoring, I felt I didnt give enough points for defensive ST. If you can find the statistics to help me get a rough idea as to how many points ST will accumulate over the year I would be willing to rework it. I will not, however, change the scoring without a general idea of what to expect.
OL Scoring : I will add more levels to the scale, but I dont think a 200+ bonus should be issued. People didnt want bonus' for WR, TB & TE, why would they want them for the OL?
Roster : I still think either way will work. I think an 8 man offense is set. Therefore we have the choice of a 4-3-4 D or a 3-3-3 D. A 4-3-4 will have 40% offensive pts, 47.5% defensive, 12.5% ST. A 3-3-3 will have 43.1% offensive, 43.9% defensive, 13% ST.
While the 3-3-3 creates perfect parity between offense and defense, the 4-3-4 discrepency of 7% isnt all that drastic. I think we should take a vote on this.
FA : Good suggestions
League Scoring System : I've officially decided on Total Pts. I like H2H for baseball, but one game a week doesnt seem to make H2H as fair. Since not many people have spoken on this issue, I felt I'd make the decision and leave one less issue for debate.
OVERALL : I think we need to start making decisions quickly. I really would like to get the draft started sometime by next weekend. I think small issues shouldnt be debated at this point. Lets keep the discussion to larger issues from this point forward.
Correction, with a 4-3-4 the balance would be 42% O to 45.5% D while a 3-3-3 would be almost identically even at 43.5%. (QB rushing stats were omitted previously)
7
Doug
ID: 21922183 Wed, Jul 24, 2002, 00:52
I have the current O/D/ST at 40/49/11, but I'm dividing by games played to get a "per game" score for players, since for example Faulk played only 14 games but was still a top scorer (note: I divided by games played AFTER deciding who the top 24 RBs were, for example, so there's no 1-or-2-games played statistical anomalies). The games when Faulk is out you'd still get points from another player (assuming you knew he'd be out in advance), which is why I went with per game scores. That probably explains the difference in percentages. When switching to 3-3-3 I get a 43/46/11 split, which is better I think.
8
Doug
ID: 21922183 Wed, Jul 24, 2002, 01:11
OL - Maybe I phrased it poorly by using the word bonus, I just meant add another tier at that level... 150-199 = 16 points, 200+ = 17 or 18 points (i.e., 1 or 2 "bonus" points over 150, just like 150 is a bonus point over 140, etc.) And it's not as if we're getting duplicate scoring like we were with the RB/WR points, unless you happen to have the OL and primary RB from the same team, but it's not built into the system. I think I just used the wrong word by saying "bonus". =-)
I'll look into ST stats and see what I find.
Keepers - To revisit and hopefully nail down this one... suggestion on the table is up to 10 keepers max per team split between 5 max on offense, 5 max on defense, 3 max special teams (which shouldn't really be an issue). The main question I have with keepers is how this affects next season's draft... if I only keep 8, another guy keeps 9, and the rest all keep the full 10... do I get the sole "round 1" pick in next years draft, then 1 of the 2 "round 2" picks, and then we go into normal draft mode with "round 3"? Or are the "compensatory" picks a bit farther down the line... between rounds 3 and 4, for example?
9
Doug
ID: 21922183 Wed, Jul 24, 2002, 02:27
There were only 37 blocked kicks league-wide all of last regular season (and 42 in 2000)... so it's a pretty rare event... averaging just over 1 per team per season. I still think it would be nice to have, but doens't really enhance the average scoring of the position. I'm not certain that stat includes both punts and field goals but I assume it does. (ESPN Team Misc. OPP Stats)
Kick returns - I looked at Detroit, the #5 kick return average and #21 punt return average team last year (Desmond Howard & friends). This would probably be a decent scoring ST in our scheme... somewhere between 5 and 10 rank probably (lots of kick returns, due to stellar defense), thus a good basis to determine an average scoring special team. Breakdown of in format "# returns - avg. per return":
KRYPG
PRYPG
5 - 40 (max 91, but no TD)
2 - 22.5
5 - 34.4 (max 59, no TD)
2 - 21.5
3 - 30.7
2 - 19
5 - 29.8
1 - 18
5 - 25.6
1 - 13
4 - 25.5
4 - 9.2
5 - 25.4
3 - 6.7
8 - 22.8
4 - 5.8
4 - 21.8
2 - 5.5
4 - 21.75
1 - 5
6 - 21.3
3 - 2.7
6 - 20
2 - 1.5
5 - 18.8
1 - 0
5 - 16.6
0 - 0
4 - 15.8
0 - 0
2 - 13
0 - 0
Notice no return TDs all season... in fact, only 22 league wide (kicks and punts) all year. That's even rarer than a blocked kick. So rewarding a high average return with more points doesn't necessarily duplicate the points you get for a TD. If we do away with the 1 point per return stat (please?), that takes away 6.5 points per game on average (for Detroit anyway). Blocked kick points certainly won't make up for that... but you mentioned you wanted to include the defensive side of ST, so how about including a reversed "tier" system to allocate points based on opponents KRYPG and PRYPG? That would make up the 6 points per game from omitting "returns" and include the defensive side of ST. So your ST points are based on KRYPG, PRYPG, Opp. KRYPG, Opp. PRYPG, ST TDs (please don't abbreviate that to STDs), Opp. ST TDs, and maybe Blocked Kicks. I think that might work. Based on the Detroit sample data, I think the KRYPG setup is good, but maybe we should add a 4th tier worth 5 points at around 29 or 30 for KRYPG, and the middle tier for PRYPG should probably be broadened from 9-12 to 6-15 or something in that neighborhood... I think just 3 tiers is fine for punts though.
OK, I promise I'll shut up now and let others chime in on the 3-3-3 vs. 4-3-4 vote and other assorted issues. =-)
10
Nerfherders
ID: 12372518 Wed, Jul 24, 2002, 13:51
Heh this thread seems to have turned into a discussion between two people. So let me throw in some spare change.
I like everything in the scoring except that for special teams. I think that returns should be removed, and replaced with blocks. Blocks for both kicks and punts. It's a standard roto stat and is typically 2 points.
And my official vote for defensive starters is 3-3-3!
hey, i dont know if this stuff was discussed but here are my ideas to ap10s post.
i think we should do contracts for the keepers like we did in baseball
i like a head to head league best, but i am willing to budge
just my ideas. let me know what you think
12
mike
ID: 166362417 Wed, Jul 24, 2002, 17:36
ugh miss a few hours and miss a lot. don't have a lot of time to respond right now but just a couple of things
offenses-I don't mind going deep on rb, wr and even tight end, I like the challenge like doug (I believe) said, but 2 qbs just isn't feasible I think.
keepers-I like the salary cap idea mixed with limits (on position, total players)
type-I like head to head, which seems to be the trend but like everyone else I'm open to any format with good lobbying
more later
13
dgrooves
ID: 364522113 Wed, Jul 24, 2002, 17:43
Keepers: 10 per team, 5 max for both offense and defense. If you say 10 keepers is the most we can have, then you run into the problems Doug mentioned in post 8. You have to keep 10 players, no more, no less. Also, this may have been assumed by eveyone, but I want to be sure we can trade players and draft picks in the offseason. Along those lines, when will we have to submit the 10 players we want to keep? I say 1 month (maybe even 2 weeks) before the redraft. This would allow us to make trades after the real NFL draft and possibly after training camps start, but still give everyone enough time to make their draft boards.
Free Agents: 7 to 13 days is way, way to long to be on waivers. It should be 2 days. We should be able to start picking up players sometime soon after the Monday night game, Tuesday morning perhaps. We should have until the night before the first game, as long as the software allows that flexibility, to pick up players.
i still like the contract deal. give everyone a certain amount of money to sign players per year, when the contract is up they go back into the draft. as far as post 8, i think if I have 10 guys signed and you have 8 then you will get 2 extra picks to end the draft, not to start. just my opinion, let me know.
15
dgrooves
ID: 364522113 Wed, Jul 24, 2002, 19:57
If we have this preset amount of money to spend on the contracts, where do we get prices for players from? How do we determine the number of years the contract will last for? If were putting the extra picks you get at the end of each draft, I cant see any reason to keep less than 10 players. Why would I leave two of my keeper spots open to allow me to grab a 26th round pick? And I must say that there is no fair way I can see to put those extra draft picks anywhere else.
16
mike
ID: 276162420 Wed, Jul 24, 2002, 20:16
more thoughts from me
punters-nothing too major but isn't funny to give points for a touchback when it's considered a failure when you kick one?
blocked kicks/punts-rare and should be rewarded (although not too much)
free agents-so is the jist that if you drop someone midweek they can't be picked up until the next week's waiver period? That's cool with me.
defense line-up-I like the 3-3-3
bench-not sure if this up for debate but I'd like to see it be a floating bench but with limits on posistions so that no one can load up with like 4 qb's to hold the posistion hostage.
scoring-I know you decided on this but I'd hope you'd consider head to head. at least 3 or 4 of us liked this idea earlier. you said with only one game it didn't seem fair. I'd counter that it's what makes fantasy football (and football itself) so much fun. where in other sports so many games mean nothing here every game is so important.
not a big thing, I'm not going to quit over this just my preference
wiggs, while contracts are fun they are very difficult because you have to pre-determine how many years you would like to sign a player to. I like the idea of keeping X amnt of players each year. So here is my proposal.
Keepers You can keep 8 players each year. A maximum of 4 offensive players and 4 defensive players. You can only keep a certain player a maximum of 4 consecutive years. At the end of those four years, that player will become a free agent and go back into the draft pool.
Eight is the maximum amount of players you can keep but you dont have to. If you do not keep the maximum amount of players you will obtain a compensation pick in the following years draft as follows. Every compesatory pick is at the end of the round. If more than one team have a compensation pick in a round, the team with the worst record will always pick higher. If two teams have identical records, they will alternate picks.
**Remember, a first round pick in an off year will not have equal talent as a first round pick in the initial year.
Free Agents The trading/free agency deadline will be at the end of week 12. After week 12, there will be no player pickups or trades. Players can be signed each week after the final game of that week up until 60 hours prior to the first game of the next week. Once a manager wants to sign a player, the claim will take 48 hours to pend which will allow every other manager in the league a chance at obtaining that player. There will be a waiver/FA priority queue which will determine which manager will obtain the rights of the player that two+ managers have tried to claim. Once a player signs with his team, that manager must release a player from his roster. That player will then be on waivers for two days.
Roster Deadline The deadline to set your roster for that week will be one hour prior to the first game of the week. (If there is a Thursday game, your lineup for that week must be set 1 hour prior to that game). No acceptions. If you fail to set a starting roster, your team will use your last valid roster.
League Scoring Type You decide. So far it appears each manager, except myself, is leaning towards a H2H league. I have a few concerns about such a league. a) Each manager will go H2H with every other manager one time + 6 other managers. This leads to an unbalanced/unfair system. b) No playoff system. I hate when a team has a poor year, then because of a variety of different reasons, ends the season well and is able to win the league.
I will be posting my adjusted scoring algorithm for OLine & Special teams shortly.
mike, re post 16 : punters-nothing too major but isn't funny to give points for a touchback when it's considered a failure when you kick one?
Good point. I will be posting my adjusted scoring system shortly.
free agents-so is the jist that if you drop someone midweek they can't be picked up until the next week's waiver period? That's cool with me.
Kind of correct. Read above and see if you have questions.
19
Doug
ID: 21922183 Wed, Jul 24, 2002, 22:32
The long poster strikes again...
Defense - So far myself, nerfherders, and mike prefer the 3-3-3 with no other preferences made known (unless I missed it)... so if you want a say on this (especially if you prefer 4-3-4), please speak up soon.
Free Agents - Is the 48 hour claiming perioed only for someone on waivers, or for all free agents? If for all free agents, then we don't really need "waivers" at all. This is fine with me, I just want to make sure I understand what we're talking about. I think a system where all claims take 48+ hours (even free agents) is good because otherwise, if I happen to be watching a game live and stud back A goes down with what appears to be a major injury, I can instantly go online and pickup replacement back B. I don't think people should be rewarded as such just for monitoring every game closely as it is played.
Keepers - The two main suggestions so far 4o/4d/8max and 5o/5d/10max pretty much guarantee each team will be keeping the same numbers of offense and defense (with occasional exceptions). I think keeping the max down to 8 is good for parity and will keep things interesting in years to come. One comprimise might be 4o/5d/9max since we have 1 more starter on defense than on offense. Also, teams are a little more likely to give up their 5th best defensive player in order to get a compensatory pick... with 4/4/8 I think that almost everyone would keep the full 8 most years. I like the compensatory pick system you came up with, except line 6 should read rounds 12,10,8,6,4,3. Finally, I think 3 seasons should be the max instead of 4, but you should have the option of designating a franchise player (1 offense, 1 defense) who if you keep beyond 3 seasons he counts double as a keeper, both against your team max as well as the offense max. In the case that after 3 years you kept Faulk and 2 'new' defensive guys, you would get the compensatory picks as if you had held 4 players instead of 3 (no 4th round pick)... but you would still need an extra pick to fill my roster because he was "double counted". That pick would come at the end of the draft. It's only one player per O/D, and you have to pay a heavy price to do it, but I think it should at least be an option.
League Scoring - I feel the same about AP10 regarding playoffs under H2H system. The problem then is if we go H2H, how do we determine a league champ in the case of a tie (especially a 3-way tie?) I'm just sorta thinking out loud here, but one option is that we go round robin for 11 weeks, and then the top 6 teams and bottom 6 teams each go round robin against each other the last 6 weeks of the season... although I suppose the 7th place team could run the table and win because he had easier competition. Also, if the 6th and 7th place teams have the same record after 11 weeks, which goes to the 'top' round robin, and which to the 'bottom' round robin? OK, this idea would need some work, but I'm just throwing it out there... maybe someone else can run with it and make it work, but I gotta go meet up with some friends so I don't have time to work on it now...
Revised Scoring **If scoring for a certain position isnt listed below, it is unchanged and will be the same as listed in the original post of this thread.
**Only categories software will allow are listed below Special Teams return yds gained return yds allowed TD allowed Punter Inside 20 Blocked Punts Punts returned Kickers FG Missed FG Blocked FG XP Missed XP Blocked XP FG% XP%
I've looked at a lot of different software and this is the only software that is VERY customizable with a lot of options. I do admit, after further review, that they skimped on special teams/kicking game. I will continue to look for other software that is as good/better than the software I have but I think we may need to go with the software on this one. Atleast it lets us highly customize everything else...
Defense The starting defense will be a 3-3-3 formation (as detailed in the initial post)
Everything in my initial post of this thread is finalized! Unless if there is a major flaw.
Doug, All claims will take 48 hours of pending time. Therefore waivers is a moot term. 4o/4d/8max with a Franchise Player along with your rules sounds very fair to me.
Injured Reserve Only one man can be placed in your IR slot at a time and he can only be placed there after missing one entire game. Once that player returns and make a play in a game he must be removed from the IR slot for the following weeks games. There will be no maximum/minimum length of time a player can be in your IR slot as long as the above rules are followed.
Attention I would like to finalize everything (or almost) sometime before midnight on Thursday. I will then be sending out an email with starting times for the draft.
25
Doug
ID: 21922183 Thu, Jul 25, 2002, 02:18
I'm cool with 1 IR slot for now, but we may want to revisit it at the end of the season to make sure we don't need a second spot. I remember last year I had a 15-man roster in one game and often had 2 (and at one point 4) "undroppable" guys who were sitting out for a few games. Our rosters are twice that size, so more chance for injured players. For everyone's sake (us AND the athletes) I hope one slot is enough!
Special teams - hmmm... limiting stats to work with... OK, first attempt... 1 pt / 5 return yds, -1 pt / 10 opp. return yds, -6 pts / TD allowed... some sample scores for last season: (top teams) New Orleans 279, Detroit 267, (mid-range) Dallas 228, (low) Indy 169 A sample game-by-game for Detroit for the first half of the season: 24, 17, 13, 15, 28, 39, 7, 20
At first this seems like a lot of variance... as many as 39 pts., and as few as 7... but compare that to Randy Moss, who started the season scoring 3, 13, and 13 the first 3 games, but had as many as 46 later in the season... and about 268 points total for the season. So I think it's comparable to other positions.
Someone else can figure out kickers and punters. The main outstanding issue I see is finding a H2H system that works, or else deciding just to go with total points if we can't. H2H proponents, let's hear some suggestions of a fair system for our league... I tried to get the ball rolling in a prior post.
Is there anything else we need to decide before moving ahead with the draft? AP10 - are we going serpentine style, and how are we deciding on draft order?
26
Doug
ID: 21922183 Thu, Jul 25, 2002, 03:18
A few last thoughts for the night... I'd really like to have two conferences, probably west and east based upon where we all live. I think it would help keep the late season competition interesting... for example, if someone has a clear lead for the overall league championship, at least in the other conference there might still be a good battle for the "conference championship" (regardless of whatever scoring system we come up with).
In terms of drafts after the first year, if we go with a H2H scoring system I think there should be some sort of lottery to determine draft order amongst the bottom 5 teams, to mitigate against teams losing on purpose in order to improve their draft position late in the season. Otherwise, it could unfairly affect the league championship if one of the teams in the race has essentially a "bye" because their opponent is tanking on purpose. Teams in 6th place and above will probably be aiming to finish at least .500 for pride's sake, or win conference championship, etc. So just to throw something out there, the "virtual balls in the hopper" from last through 5th-to-last place could be: 35,30,20,10,5
Finally, if there is a trade in which I get Team A's 1st and 2nd round draft pick next year, I'll end up with a 33-man roster after the draft, whereas Team A will only have a 29-man roster. Presumably he can then pick up guys off of the free agent list to fill out his roster... the question is, when do I have to trim my roster back down to 31? Immediately after the draft? A week before first game of the season? (the week before the first game would be my preference) Or, option 3, can we only do trades where we trade equal number of draft picks... for example, I get his round 1 and 2 picks, and he gets my round 22 and 23 picks (as part of a larger trade, of course)?
27
Doug
ID: 21922183 Thu, Jul 25, 2002, 03:53
OK, I lied, one more thought... a good one I think/hope for a workable H2H system. So, assuming we have 2 conferences, you play every team in the league once, and teams in your own conference a second time. That gets us through 16 weeks. Then on week 17 we square off 1st place vs. 2nd place, 3rd vs. 4th, etc., although league champ is still best record, which is not necessarily the winner of the 1st place vs. 2nd place game. If two or more teams are tied for 2nd place, then they use the tiebreaker (outlined below) to determine who plays in the 1v2 game and who goes to the 3v4 game. The only thing left then is how to determine a champion if 2 or more of the top teams end up with the same record... I'd suggest the tiebreaker be the head-to-head record between those teams which are tied, and a second tiebreaker if they were 1-1 against each other is total fantasy points for the year. The odds of still having a tie after that are miniscule, but in that .01% case declaring co-champions would be fine.
The only objection that I perceive to this is that if one conference is stronger or weaker than the other, then it's an unfair scheduling advantage to the top team in the weaker conference. We could realign conferences each year to keep things balanced, such that last year's 1,3,5,7,9,11 place teams are in one conference, with teams 2,4,6,8,10,12 in the other conference. That could also be how we determine conferences the first year, based on draft pick, rather than our actual geographic location as previously suggested.
28
dgrooves
ID: 25672414 Thu, Jul 25, 2002, 09:30
Id like to vote strongly against the type of free agent policy AP10 posted. First, I dont like the 60 hour deadline. Why is it a bad thing for us to be able to pick up a player up to an hour before the week's games start? I think being forced to wait 2 and a half days could be detremental to a team if for no other reason than the typical delay in injury reporting. Sometimes we dont find out if a player will be playing on a given week until very shortly before the game starts. Im sure most, if not all, of us have had similar troubles with TSN's/SmallWorld's Thursday roster freezes. I say the deadline to pick up a player is at least the night (aka midnight) before the week's first game and that we consider an hour before the week's first game.
Secondly, I think banning any free agent activity after Week 12 will also be detremental. With the frequency of injuries in the NFL, it is very likely that a number of us will need or want to replace one or more players on our team after that deadline. I can understand a Week 12 trade deadline from the collusion perspective, but I dont understand the motivation behind setting a Week 12 free agent deadline. I could even see getting rid of the trade ban, as long as we are sure we have a trustworthy group of guys. Maybe this is something we can revisit after the first season. Oh, does anyone have anything to say about my previous comments regarding offseason trades?
Thirdly, and I may have incorrectly interpreted AP10's post, I dont see why claims and a waviers process need to be completed on both free agents and players on waivers. Free agents are just that: free. If you meant that after the week's games begin, every free agent essentially becomes a player on waivers, then I like the policy. All the players in the free agent pool should be subject to a waivers process after the weeks games are played so it isnt a race to be the first to a computer and claim some backup. However, this process should end soon after the Monday night game, rather than begin then. Otherwise it will be Wednesday night before those claims get processed, and if its a week with a Thursday or Saturday game and we have the 60-hour deadline in place, any team who doesnt get the player they want will be unable to pick up any player that week.
You guys wanted small benches so there would be a lot of player movement, but now you want to limit that movement. Why?
dgrooves, your post lost me. At the beginning you state that you dont like the 60 hours deadline and that you would like the ability to be able to pick up a FA up to an hour prior to the first game of the week. At the end of your post you mention that every FA should be 'subject to a waivers process after the weeks games are played so it isnt a race to be the first to a computer and claim some backup.'
Sometimes we dont find out if a player will be playing on a given week until very shortly before the game starts. That is why the roster deadline isnt until one hour prior to the first game of the week. Who drops a player and picks up another just because they are going to be out for a game or two? Even if your player is a near last minute scratch, you can still fill his void in your starting roster. I dont see the problem here. If you really want to drop him, wait until Monday night.
Here is my thoughts on the system. A FA in the real NFL market can not be 100% simulated in fantasy sports. In the real world, each player who becomes a FA would field offers from all teams. It would be illogical to not do so. In the fantasy world, there is no player with a mind to make such decisions, therefore there needs to be a pending time on all transactions, to allow time for other managers to get a shot at the FA or waiver.
Essentially in my system, the process of claiming a waiver and FA are the same. Two days pending time.
Otherwise it will be Wednesday night before those claims get processed, and if its a week with a Thursday or Saturday game and we have the 60-hour deadline in place, any team who doesnt get the player they want will be unable to pick up any player that week. How would you feel if we kept the same pending time as I have outlined above, but instead of having to wait until the end of the last game of the week to initiate a claim on a FA or waiver, you could claim a player anytime. If your 2 day pending time ended before the last game of the week, you would have to wait until the end of the last game to drop him. This would allow players to be dropped immediately on Monday, theoretically allowing players to get their claim in during the week and they would be able to start him the following weekend. Offseason trading is allowed.
Trading draft picks is allowed. I'm willing to drop the FA/waiver pickup deadline, but I am very confident that week 12 is a good time to be the trading deadline.
You guys wanted small benches so there would be a lot of player movement, but now you want to limit that movement. Why? I am not trying to limit player movement, rather give each manager an equal shot at success without having to sit in front of their computer 24/7.
30
Doug
ID: 3411223 Thu, Jul 25, 2002, 14:09
dgrooves - Just to clarify a few things... the proposed system essentially has NO free agents to avoid the "computer rush" you described whenever a news item breaks... you always have time to make your claim on the backup RB off waivers, etc. Secondly, after the 60 hour deadline you can still make internal roster adjustments for a guy that you find out is injured. Almost always in those "last minute" cases you knew the guy was day-to-day to begin with, so it's your responsibility to have a replacement on roster who is ready to go. I don't think the 60 hour deadline is necessary though, as there is already effectively a "49 hour deadline", since that's how long it takes to clear waivers, plus the 1 hour before gametime roster freeze. I do see how this makes things tight on week 13 (the only Thursday game except week 1)... but it's only one week all year, and if the week 12 deadline stands then the point is moot as well (maybe week 12 is the last week for trades, but week 14-15 the last for waivers)? I suppose we could consider shortening the waiver period to 24-36 hours, but it then gets progressively easier for someone to "slip through" if you aren't monitoring NFL and league news every single day of the week.
We need to set daily start/finish times for the draft... I'm thinking 7am-11pm PST (10am- 2am EST) works with the following logic: if you are an East Coaster and a draft pick came your way at 12:01am, you'd still have 1 min. carry over to the next day, so you'd actually have until 10:01am the next day to make your pick... but if a pick comes your way at 11:59 pm, then you'd have to make a pick that night. Likewise, a West Coaster would probably make any pick that came his way at night (before 11pm), but if his pick comes up again early the next am, the clock starts at 7am... so that way he's got until at least 9am to wake up and get it figured out.
Thus, the "effective" draft hours would really be more like 10am-midnight EST, 9am-11pm PST. Keep in mind, the draft can still progress during the off hours, it's just that the clock isn't running. This would only guarantee roughly a round every 2 days, but I'm pretty sure most of us aren't going to be maxing out our time allocations, at least for the first few rounds.
31
mike
ID: 276162420 Thu, Jul 25, 2002, 14:19
draft questions
my only problem is I work midnights so I sleep from like 7am to 2pm.
will there be a way bank picks if we're not sure we'll be able to pick?
second question if we miss a pick what's the penalty?
how about not allowed to pick until the round finishes? although if we can preselect/bank picks I can't see this being much of a problem
32
Doug
ID: 3411223 Thu, Jul 25, 2002, 14:20
Didn't mean to duplicate the response... AP10 posted while I was typing. =-)
I agree that you should be able to make a waivers claim (I'm dropping the FA term to avoid confusion) anytime during the week (even during Sunday's games, or Saturday night for that matter), provided we keep the 48 hour period for all waivers to clear.
Finally, I'm glad we all agree trading draft picks is allowed, but what about the questions raised in the last paragraph of post #26? I vote that "imbalanced" drafts are fine, with the following timelines: 6 weeks before first game - announce your keepers 4 weeks before first game - draft commences (23 rounds) 1 week before first game - all rosters trimmed to 31 players (only applies if you had acquired extra draft picks)
Draft Rules The draft will run from the hours of 10am EST - 1am EST (7am PST-10pm PST). [These were the hours we used for baseball and it seemed to work well]. If you can not be at a computer for an extended period of time, you are expected to leave a 2+ man queue. If you do not leave a queue and your 2 hours has expired your pick will be made for you (using the '01 Stats I've provided). If you have affectively left a 2+ man queue, and both of those players have been taken and your 2 hour clock has run out. You will be given an extra amount of time, as deemed necessary by the commish.
I have computer access 24/7 and can check in *atleast* once an hour. (people in my baseball league can atest for this) Everyone can leave a queue with me. Either email me at Derek_35@hotmail.com or IM AIM=DerekChas.
34
Doug
ID: 3411223 Thu, Jul 25, 2002, 14:26
That's a tough question mike... unless the software can handle a "preference list" of some sort, the best option may be to give your list to a buddy who can be online at that time and cover for you. If you can't do that, the only other option I can see that is fair is to announce your preference list for the next list publicly. You can't only tell the commish, that gives him an unfair advantage of knowing how you will pick when your turn comes.
I think moving to the end of the round is a good penalty, and once you are bumped to the end of the round that pick only has a 1 hour timeline, or it is bumped again to the end of the next round (you still have a 2 hour timeline on your regular pick next round, which will obviously come first).
I also believe the software I am purchasing will allow us to slow draft in their draft room. I'm not sure how customizable it is, but there may be a way to leave a queue in the system.
37
Doug
ID: 3411223 Thu, Jul 25, 2002, 14:29
I have a problem with people leaving a queue with the commish (since the commish is also playing)... can the software handle this "blindly", so that you don't have an advantage? Otherwise I think queues should be public to all of us, not just the commish.
38
mike
ID: 276162420 Thu, Jul 25, 2002, 14:30
sweet, now I'll be able to sleep in peace during the draft :)
Finally, I'm glad we all agree trading draft picks is allowed, but what about the questions raised in the last paragraph of post #26? I vote that "imbalanced" drafts are fine, with the following timelines: 6 weeks before first game - announce your keepers 4 weeks before first game - draft commences (23 rounds) 1 week before first game - all rosters trimmed to 31 players (only applies if you had acquired extra draft picks)
Those rules look good. I'm not sure we need to concern ourselves with too much details on this as of yet. But its a good start. We have a lot of time to work with this.
I have a problem with people leaving a queue with the commish (since the commish is also playing)... can the software handle this "blindly", so that you don't have an advantage? Otherwise I think queues should be public to all of us, not just the commish.
I have 10 people who can vouch for leaving queues with me without any trouble. You dont have to leave a queue with me, if I am next in line. If you prefer to leave a queue with some other person that drafts behind you, you also have that option. The knowledge cant be public, because shady business could very easily take place then.
I will be purchasing the software tonight and hopefully it can handle a draft queue....
41
mike
ID: 276162420 Thu, Jul 25, 2002, 14:41
man were busy little posters right now. I keep jumping back between another post and reading what just came up (should have more thoughts on head to head in a second)
42
mike
ID: 276162420 Thu, Jul 25, 2002, 14:47
head to head concerns-just replying to some that have been raised
playoffs-most if not all magazine come with schedules allowing for a 13-14 week season with playoffs. I'd be surprised if the software didn't have something like this.
usually 12 team league is 3 divisions of 4, top 2 div. leaders get bye and lowest div leader and 3 wildcards play it out (like nfl under 3 divisions) until they hit the finals. beauty of this is you can run a "toilet bowl type thing for the bottom 6 teams to keep everyone playing as long as possible the last 3 weeks of the season.
competitive balance-I'm don't like this realignment talk based on performance. there's talk about how it can lead to unfair situations but isn't sports like that. just means you have to work harder to get your team up to snuff. personally I'd rather work my team out of the basement especially.
if we want to set up the divisions to balance based on the first draft I'm cool with that but I say let nature take it's course afterwards. survival of the fittest type thing
mike, there are 8 keepers. A max of 4O/4D therefore you could use a ST keeper as either.
45
Doug
ID: 3411223 Thu, Jul 25, 2002, 15:28
AP10 and I are anti-playoff, mike is pro- playoff... can we get some more voices to chime in on this one?
46
mike
ID: 276162420 Thu, Jul 25, 2002, 16:01
yeah I'm pro playoff just gives it more or a real feel to the league
47
Nerfherders
ID: 12372518 Thu, Jul 25, 2002, 16:36
How about we go with a two division system for the first 16 weeks using total points, and then the 17th week would be a head to head between the two top teams? It's a hybrid that would keep interest to more teams near the end, and would keep the poorer teams from 'winning' the season. I suppose we could keep stats for all 17 weeks and if say, 3rd and 4th are close, they would still be fighting for positions until the very end.
48
mike
ID: 06202517 Thu, Jul 25, 2002, 17:20
what's wrong with a "poorer" team winning
new england wasn't the best team but they were that day
if we're not going to do a playoff we might as well just do total points
49
dgrooves
ID: 364522113 Thu, Jul 25, 2002, 17:20
Im pro h2h and playoffs, but willing to play either system.
Free Agents: Basically what I want is to be able to add and drop players during the week (Tuesday to the start of the week's first game) without waiting 48 hours. I agree that the players should be off-limits/on waivers while the week's games are being played, but I dont think its a necessity during the week. Also, when does the 48-hour rule go into effect? Is it after the first claim on a player?
I still dont see the appeal of the 60-hour deadline. How does it make the game better for us? What type of unwanted behavior does it prevent? I havent been able to think of an answer to these questions. I also cant see how setting the add/drop deadline to 1 hour prior to gametime hurts us. Granted, it wouldnt be possible if we had the 48-hour rule in place, but I want to eliminate that (during the week) anyway. Correct me if Im wrong, but with a 60-hour add/drop deadline and a week that has a Thursday game, the deadline to select "free agents" would be Monday at midnight. Under that system, I would have to enter all my transactions before the Monday night game is over. This also seems to present "computer problems".
Has anyone played in a CBS Sportsline league? I think they handle waivers and free agents well and I would prefer to model our system after theirs.
50
dgrooves
ID: 364522113 Thu, Jul 25, 2002, 17:24
Here is how Commisoner.com leagues handle free agents and waivers:
dgrooves, as we've mentioned above 2 seperate times the 48 hour rule was implemented to avoid as commissioner.com would say 'free agent moves are first-come, first-served and are executed immediately.' I want every manager to have a fair shot at getting a player. I'm not big on first come first serve. I dont think a manager who is online 24/7 should have an advantage over a manager who checks his team daily. You should be able to live a life and still be able to be competitive.
FA is real life are not first come first serve. They are a person, who fields offers from various teams (unless if no one is interested). They dont necessarily sign with the first team who offers them a contract.
It will be hard to persuade me to change this rule. I am open to changing the pending time, but I think there needs to be some sort of pend. My baseball league has been using this rule all season and it has yet to be a problem (and it would be more of a problem with baseball than football).
52
dgrooves
ID: 364522113 Thu, Jul 25, 2002, 17:35
You have a problem with first come, first served during the week (Tuesday to the day of the first game)? Why?
Why not? You think a manager should have an fantasy advantage since he can/is online 24/7? I prefer the only advantage a manager has is the mind.
54
dgrooves
ID: 364522113 Thu, Jul 25, 2002, 17:44
I really dont see how FCFS during the week is an advantage. How many hot waiver-wire pickups have ever been made on a Wednesday? If no one else agree with me on this, I wont fight it, but Id like to hear more opinions.
i will atest for ap10s honesty. i have left queues with him through the baseball draft and all was well. what i tried to do was leave a queue with someone that wouldnt be picking before i got to picks. for example if i was 5th, i would leave my queue with the guy who had 1st pick if we were going up or the guy with the 10th pick if we were going down. understand what i am saying? I am also available to take queues, i check often, but i do work a good amount of hours a week. Hope everyone understands what i was saying. sometimes i like to ramble on!! peace
56
mike
ID: 276162420 Thu, Jul 25, 2002, 19:23
I may have a waiver idea, that combines both sides
can't put it up until tomorrow though, off to work
another issue, any supports for max number per position. I'd say on main positions, qb, rb, wr, def positions, max of 2 above the starting number. positions in more limited quanitity, ie ol, te, p, k, st, max of 1 above the starting number
mike, those max's are coicidentally the exact same as I entered into the software today. I have to leave for the night. I really hope everything gets done before tomorrow. Then I'll put everything up on a makeshift webpage.
Tentative Start of the Draft Monday, July 29th
** This will allow the weekend for preparation.
58
Doug
ID: 3411223 Thu, Jul 25, 2002, 20:10
wiggs - I was going to suggest something similar... leave it with the guy who picks right before you, so that he can make your pick as soon as he makes his own and keep things moving as quickly as possible that way. The only thing is that everyone has to check their email everytime they pick to make sure the guy after them didn't send them a queue. I think that works though. It's not that i don't trust AP10, but if he's torn between selecting a backup QB and a backup RB this round, and he gets a couple of queues from people picking later in the round who are going to take QBs... then even if it's subconscious, he now realizes there will be a run on QBs and will go ahead and pick one now. It's not a huge deal to me, I can go on trust if we want, but I think giving your queue to the guy who picks before you that round is what makes the most sense and will keep things moving the fastest if people pay attention to their email (and have access from both work/home to the account we have listed for them). The only thing is, can we even make picks for other people? Or do we have to log on with some sort of password so that someone else can't screw with our team (even accidentally)?
Waivers - What's the urgency to get someone on your roster "right away" on Wednesday rather than on Thursday or Friday (excluding week 13 of course)? Clearly I'm with AP10 on this, though I could see a reduction to 36 hours as a possible compromise. Also, let's do away with the 60 hour rule, etc... claims can be made at any time, 24/7, but are always subject to the 36 hour pend period (effective from whenever the first claim on the player is made). That gives you through Friday night to plan your roster changes. If you hear something on Saturday that makes you want to pick another player up, fine, make your claim, but everyone else should still have time to make a claim on that player too based on whatever new information made you want to all of a sudden pick him up on a Saturday.
All this talk about waivers has got me thinking about roster depth more closely than before... say I have a primary backup at DL,LB,DB,QB,RB,WR,TE. I'm not going to drop any of those guys. Also, I need at least one backup collectively between the K,P,ST,and OL to cover bye weeks. That leaves me with 3 bench slots. What if i want a 3rd QB... say a developmental guy like Joey Harrington who might not start a lot this year? Or a rookie WR or RB... these guys aren't my primary backups, but this is a keeper league and I might be banking on them developing by the end of the season to keep for next year. So I think 1 bench slot for a developmental guy is pretty reasonable. That leaves us with only 2 bench slots (plus 1 IR) for having a confluence of bye weeks or multiple injuries at a given position or team-wide (which is more likely here than in other leagues since we have multiple guys starting at 5 different positions). Things will get VERY tight very quick for a team with a few injuries, etc. My first thought is to add one to the bench. Before you say no, just make sure you think it through like I did above... 11 seems like a lot but it's really not that big of a bench given our starting roster size. For example, in Yahoo (and many others) the default league has 9 starters and 6 bench, or 2/3 of a bench player per starter. We have 20 starters and 11 bench, which is roughly only 1/2 a bench player per starter. If there is strong opposition to another man on the bench for some reason, then I think we definitely should add a 2nd IR slot instead... it alleviates what I anticipate will be excessive roster pressure on banged up teams, without allowing healthy teams to take advantage.
max per position - I don't have strong feelings on this... it's probably a good idea, mike... I might change RB and WR maximums to 3 though, since these guys get injured a lot. Also, I assume that the maximums only apply to active roster, not including anyone on IR, correct?
59
Doug
ID: 3411223 Fri, Jul 26, 2002, 01:42
Since nobody has posted anything on these... it's not ideal but I'm just trying to make the numbers work given the stats we have to work with... I'd rather give extra points for FGs than PATs, since the kicker doesn't really do anything to earn PATs. If anyone can come up with a better system, I'm certainly not in love with this one (but I think it works for our purposes)
Scoring for kickers: 6 per FG -1 per missed FG 1 per PAT -6 per missed PAT
Scoring for punters: 6 per Inside 20 -1 per punt returned
60
Doug
ID: 3411223 Fri, Jul 26, 2002, 01:51
Are we doing the draft using the software or will we do it here on the message board (like the swirve guys)? If we use the software, we should at least have a "commentary" thread running so we can talk smack =-)
61
mike
ID: 276162420 Fri, Jul 26, 2002, 10:05
ok here's the waivers suggestion I have based on fanball's formula. not sure if your software could do this but this is a system that combines the waiting period and fcfs
no pickups from 1 hour before first game (can make exceptions for thursday games) then say on midnight (or after the monday night game) waiver claim period opens for until tuesday or wednesday, whatever. blind claims by the way
you can make as many claims as you want but only get one player (other claims in case above players get picked) preference based on worst to first.
after that all players are free agents on a first come first serve. players dropped during the week are ineligible until the next week when the rejoin the waiver wire
like I said I'm not sure if this creates a mess load of work for you ap, but this prevents your concern (which I agree with) of someone online 24/7 getting an advantage in the first wave but allows the freedom afterwards to improve your team with the leftovers players
I really wish other managers would post their thoughts. I've talked with a few managers who feel the same way I do about FA/Waiver pickups.
In all reality, the FA system doesnt need to be finalized before the draft. As long as we have the rosters, scoring, draft rules and other basic league rules set such as league scoring then we should be ready to start the draft.
I was wrong saying my software couldnt handle FG length. It can. I will be posting my proposal for ST, P & K scoring very soon. Hopefully that will complete the scoring.
63
Doug
ID: 3411223 Fri, Jul 26, 2002, 13:20
I'm glad we can add length back into the mix... I'm sure whatever revised system you post will probably be fine.
Outstanding issues to resolve: 1. Workable H2H system... main issue being playoffs or no? If no, does post 27's schedule work for people? We can go with realignment or not, I don't care. 2. League Scoring - hopefully to be taken care of when AP10 posts P/K/ST proposal. 3. Draft rules - since nobody has said anything I assume we're just going serpentine based upon random draft order. Any opposition to leaving a queue with the guy who picks just before you so that your pick is "instant" as soon as he is done? 4. Roster - No response to post 58 as of yet 5. Free agent system - under discussion... like AP10 I'd like to hear more voices on this (and other) issues so we can get it resolved ASAP.
Re Draft Rules : Yes, serpentine style with randomized order.
Re Roster Size : I see no problem with adding an extra man to the bench and a second IR slot.
65
Nerfherders
ID: 12372518 Fri, Jul 26, 2002, 13:56
a 2 day waiver period and pick up period is fine with me. It keeps teams from grabbing at anyone they see have a good game the previous week. The other issues I dont have strong feelings about one way or the other. AP10's rules seem fair to me. I still vote for 3-3-3 on defense.
66
Doug
ID: 3411223 Fri, Jul 26, 2002, 13:58
On the playoffs issue... yes, it is more like the "real" NFL to have them, but we're creating our own league here, and can decide what is most important... (#1) a system that mirrors the NFL system, or (#2) a system that rewards the best player all season long. I think both are admirable goals. H2H with playoffs achieves goal #1, total points achieves goal #2, but H2H w/o playoffs achieves a degree of both. You can't win the championship without being consistently good all season, yet any team can win on any given week. The player with the most "total fantasy points" doesn't necessarily win (as happened to my housemate last year in his league), but it's pretty much bound to be one of the top 3 or 4 scoring teams, not just some late-season upstart.
ap10, when do you think you will put up the draft order? I think we should start monday if at all possible because i know tuesday is tough for me. I mean i will be here now and then and i will leave a queue, but monday i will be able to hammer out a few picks. I dotn know if this works for everyone or not. just let me know. thanks.
68
Doug
ID: 3411223 Fri, Jul 26, 2002, 16:10
Roster - Looks like we grow to a 12- man bench and 2 IR slots (no objections raised).
To summarize... positional min/max: (min=starters) Offense - 1/3 QBs, 2/4 RBs, 3/5 WRs, 1/2 TEs, 1/2 OLs - 8/16 combined Defense - 3/5 DLs, 3/5 LBs, 3/5 DBs - 9/15 combined Special Teams - 1/2 K, 1/2 P, 1/2 ST - 3/6 combined Players on IR do not count against the maximums.
Even if you max out with 16 offensive players you can have a backup at each defensive spot plus one combined special teams backup.
69
Doug
ID: 3411223 Fri, Jul 26, 2002, 16:12
Monday works well for me, let's get started first thing that morning. Mike... do you work Sunday night? If not, hopefully you'll be able to draft on Monday AM?
70
Nerfherders
ID: 12372518 Fri, Jul 26, 2002, 16:35
I will be without internet all week next week, until Thursday night at the eraliest. I really dont want the draft to start without me.
71
Doug
ID: 3411223 Fri, Jul 26, 2002, 18:12
Well Nerf's out through Thursday, and I'm out Friday-Sunday. So that would push us all the way to Monday the 5th. Probably somebody else is gonna be busy then. We'll all have to sacrifice somewhere along the line, and I'm willing to miss some of the middle and late rounds, but I'm not going to miss the start.
I'm also gone for 2 weeks after the 10th... I don't know if others have August vacation plans as well, but it's a pretty common time to be gone... I was hoping we could get this done sooner rather than later to avoid exactly that. Any chance we could all agree to power through and do a bunch of rounds on Sunday (we'd still have tomorrow to prepare) and then either go to draft queues for later rounds for anyone who is unavailable, or even maybe take a "draft hiatus" after Sunday until resuming on the 5th?
OK... so do we wait until Monday the 5th then? AP10 - How about posting the draft order (or do we definitely have our managers finalized yet)? If Nerf were to draw the first slot, for example, we could at least get 2 rounds in during the week until he has to pick again. Or we could at least start trading draft picks between each other... heh heh
75
natural G
ID: 2564271 Sat, Jul 27, 2002, 01:54
hMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmm i guess and u know your name it's funnnnnn always kicking bitches around u better win now
damn guys, it seems more difficult to understand your posts here than to play the league!!! with my english i'm just making a big effort in understanding all that you're pointing here, but i'm quite confident to have understood almost everything. AP10, can you send me a total compendium of league's rules, so that i can study it perfectly? and than, will the draft be a yahoo type, with the last team picking in the 1st round picking 1st in the second ??
If we start the draft this coming week I feel there should not be a time limit right now. There is still plenty of time before the season starts to draft. I am at work 9-10 hours each day and do not have a computer near me until I get home. If there is a 2 hour time limit between each pick it will be very hard for me to draft and I feel it would be unfair. I hope we get this thing started very soon however!!
If trends start happening in certain rounds where players from the same position are taken*example kickers or punters I will be at an unfair advantage because the queue i leave may have to be adjusted with the picks before me. Just a thought...
given this we will never start drafting.....we've to arrive to a compromise..... my opinion is: to set a precise day, in which we draft the bigger number of rounds possible in a non stop draft. We should choose a day in which there's no work for anyone or one in which we try to draft our teams even working......i should easily stay tuned all night long from here in italy, so a night's draft is welcome too.....let me know!!!
89
Doug
ID: 3411223 Sun, Jul 28, 2002, 19:39
Ike 44 - What hours (specifically) are you actually available each day? Since the message board timestamp is EST, please convert your hours to that standard.
LAZIO - You said you could stay tuned all night... are you available during the day as well? If so, during what hours? If not 24/7, then also please convert to EST (same as you see on the message board timestamp).
As for myself, I'm available 24 hours/day from now until Friday at 0900 (am) EST (possibly available some more on Friday), depending on when my friend can get out of work... we leave as soon as he does, or 0900 if he gets the whole day off. I will return (exhausted) early Monday morning (the 5th), but willing to start as early as 0900 on Monday.
consider me available all week long, except for the periods between 16:00 and 22:00 EASTERN TIME on friday and saturday.....
91
dgrooves
ID: 364522113 Sun, Jul 28, 2002, 21:16
I just want to clarify one small point on the OL scoring. When we say touchdowns are counted as +1 point, we are only counting rushing and passing TDs, correct? Clearly the OL doesnt have any effect on return or defensive TDs, but I want to be sure the software will only count the rushing and recieving TDs.
First I have to coordinate getting 12 managers together, in the middle of summer, to start a draft then I have to set it up so we can finish the draft. Add to the fact that we have international managers spread across the world, it makes it impossible to cater to each managers needs.
LAZIO, I appreciate your flexibility considering your time zone.
dgrooves, the OLine will only score points on a rushing/receiving TD, special teams TD count towards Special Teams ;)
btw, Its looking like the draft will start August 6th @ 10pm EST. Hopefully everyone can stick around for 2 hours to knock out the first few rounds. I've heard from the majority of managers and that seems like the only time that will work.
93
Doug
ID: 3411223 Mon, Jul 29, 2002, 03:40
Glad we finally have a start time! I did a Yahoo! draft and we got through our full 15 rounds in about 2 hours. Ours will probably not be as fast as that, but hopefully folks can stick around for a good 3 hours next Tuesday... we should at least be able to do 5 rounds (60 picks at avg. 3 mins. per pick). If we can use AIM rather than the message board (just that first night) then things will go much quicker, as you don't have to wait for refresh, etc. If you'd like, I can post a webpage that keeps track of who's been selected for people to view as we go along... unless AP10 already has something in mind. Otherwise it would be something like: Sample Chart
I'm really psyched for this league... can we also get the draft order posted in the next day or two maybe?
Doug, we can keep your chart if you are willing to give me Faulk while Jeddi gets Yoda :)
96
mike
ID: 276162420 Mon, Jul 29, 2002, 10:59
I can't do nights, unless it's a friday or saturday and even that is tricky for me, however if most people can I'll submit a draft list or let the computer pick my guys.
I liked the idea of starting out slow asap with no time limit, or even a long one (12 hours say)while people aren't too available
97
mike
ID: 276162420 Mon, Jul 29, 2002, 11:03
ugh thanks for reminding me doug forgot I had my yahoo draft this afternoon :)
98
Doug
ID: 3411223 Mon, Jul 29, 2002, 11:45
mike - just out of curiousity, what do you consider "nights"? That is, what's the latest you CAN go to? Also, you said you sleep 7am-2pm... is that PST, EST, or...?
I'm sort of inclined to go with the "no time limit" approach and get started ASAP... even if we only get through one or two rounds all week that gets us farther along. What objection would there be getting started this way... you can't lose your pick... even if you're away for a couple days.
We can not go with a no time limit start. Nerf is does not have computer access until Friday, then I have 2 more guys who will be gone until the 5th.
100
mike
ID: 276162420 Mon, Jul 29, 2002, 12:27
ok night is night, I'm est by the way.
I can check email at work a couple of times when I work during the week but when I work on fri.&sat. night I work alone so I can check email/message board all I want.
my main problem is that I'm computerless right now. I use either work or at the campus I live by. I'm getting one I think but it'll be a couple of weeks. that's why I don't mind having picks made for me. I figure I can deal with anything during the season (I'm in rebuilding mood already, hehe)
101
Doug
ID: 3411223 Mon, Jul 29, 2002, 14:05
How do we find out a player's official position (for the purposes of our game)? This only applies in a few cases, but for example Adalius Thomas (Baltimore) was a DE in years past, this year is expected to move to LB, but is still listed as DE by NFL.com... whether or not I pick him up could depend on which position I have to put him into. Just wonderin'...
We will be using the positions that NFL.com lists for each player. Therefore even though Adalius is going to be a OLB this year, NFL.com still lists him as a DE so Adalius could only play on the DLine.
103
mike
ID: 276162420 Mon, Jul 29, 2002, 15:21
I just signed up for aol messenger since that seems to be the toy of choice here
name is whalemailm
just letting you all know
104
Doug
ID: 3411223 Mon, Jul 29, 2002, 17:16
my AOL name is siriusadventres (sic... no u in adventures)
ap10, build a banner of this dimension for the site and put it online on our temporary page.....i've a surprise for you.....a big present for all us in this league....trust me, it's worth it.... dimensions: 460 x 68 pixels
IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO, I already have the REAL site up and working. I've been testing it for the past few days and I'll be sending out an email tonight with the details.
Either IM me or email me with the details of your 'surprise'. I will then create a banner.
eheheheh.....ap10......a surprise is a surprise....i just need you to put a banner of our site on our temporary league's page.....than, i assure you that our will became the most known keepers league on the net.....
IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO, I'm not sure what you mean by create a banner. Do you want me to design a banner (linked to our site) or do you want me to create room for a banner. If you want me to create room for a banner, send it my way, consider it done.
Emails have been sent out to the league with info about the new, Official League Website. Make sure you read the email, it has some important info regaurding passwords and being able to access your user account.
117
beebop
ID: 30644276 Tue, Jul 30, 2002, 17:23
Congratulations on a marvelous website. I like it better than nfl.com
118
dgrooves
ID: 364522113 Tue, Jul 30, 2002, 17:41
Great work AP10. The website looks great. Are we still looking at August 6th @ 10pm EST as the date and time the draft will start?
FORGOT TO MENTION I forgot to mention in the email that the draft order has been determined. You can find the order in the 'War Room' (click on your team name, then DRAFT).
ap10, you're simply a genius......really.....i'm going to ask you to design my site's homepage.... ahahahah....really a great work, i didn't expect you to be such a nice programmer.....compliments.
128
Doug
ID: 3411223 Tue, Jul 30, 2002, 21:36
Folks, we have our first ever trade of the Hardcore FF Keeper League. Just to let you all know, Beebop and I are swapping our pick positions in round 2, and likewise swapping in all odd-numbered rounds thereafter (beginning with round 3).
129
Melaleuca
ID: 17752917 Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 12:53
Jeesh louis Aperfect! That site looks FABULOUS! I'm just scrolling through it as we speak ... wow thanks for all the hardword bud, now to start preparing for the draft!!!
130
mike
ID: 246443117 Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 17:44
couple of questions for clarification
-so did we decide on head to head, if so no playoffs? or top 2 play off for title?
-you mentioned possibly making picks if people miss their pick. now we have the miss half a round penalty. can we just say that if we miss picks that you (aperfect) can make our picks without the penalty based on last year like before?
-waivers. did we ever decide on this? another reason for the waiting period is to stop any chance of collusions. not saying anyone would but owner a can email, aim whatever say he's dropping someone and then that person can just jump on them without anyone knowing.
which brings up another point, some kind of board of review for questionable trades/moves/whatever. like I said I don't want to assume any of us would do something like this but we should have something in place in case something does happen.
do we decide as a league, leave it up to commish, committee of 3? also can deal with stuff like dead teams midseason, etc.
just some thoughts I wanted to put out for dicussion
131
mike
ID: 276162420 Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 19:45
another question
when we trade a player will their keeper status carry over with them (ie-number of years allowed to protect them)
132
dgrooves
ID: 364522113 Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 19:55
Didnt we agree that we will keep 8 players (4 max Offense, 4 max defense) each year, meaning there will be no contracts?
mike, all of the questions you have raised are good questions that we temporarily skipped so that we could focus on getting the main rules out of the way for the draft. Now is a good time to start discussing them again.
so did we decide on head to head, if so no playoffs? or top 2 play off for title? There have only been 2 oppositions to the H2H format and one of those was me but I'm willing to switch to supporting H2H. Any major objections, thoughts and feelings? If we do go H2H I would suggest a 3 week playoff with 8 teams.
you mentioned possibly making picks if people miss their pick I thought the leagues decision was that if you miss a pick you get bumped to the end of that round. Under this format, if a team was picking 1st they would lose 11 places while a team picking 11th would only lose 1 place. I thought it would be better to make the penalty equal for each team regaurdless of draft position. If the majority want to change it so I pick for them, I'll willing to switch it.
waivers. did we ever decide on this? I'm adament that we stick to atleast a 36 hour holding period. I'm willing to be able to make claims 24/7 as long as the holding period is 36 hours. I think its only fair for each manager to have a shot at a player regaurdless if they are at their computer all the time or not.
which brings up another point, some kind of board of review for questionable trades/moves/whatever I suggest that atleast 50% of the league objects to the trade/move. I'm willing to work on this and would love to hear some discussion.
when we trade a player will their keeper status carry over with them This is something that we need to discuss but I would suggest not. When a player changes teams, their status should be cleared. If we were dealing with preset numbers, I think they should carry over, but this is different. We determine the keeper status year to year.
dgrooves, yes we determined that you can keep 8 players. A max of 4 offensive players and 4 defensive players. I think he is referring to the amount of years in a row that we can keep a player, which is different then contract.
I suggested we set a limit on the amount of years in a row a player could be kept. What fun would it be if you could keep Marshall Faulk for 10 straight yrs?
Doug wrote in post 19 "Keepers - The two main suggestions so far 4o/4d/8max and 5o/5d/10max pretty much guarantee each team will be keeping the same numbers of offense and defense (with occasional exceptions). I think keeping the max down to 8 is good for parity and will keep things interesting in years to come. One comprimise might be 4o/5d/9max since we have 1 more starter on defense than on offense. Also, teams are a little more likely to give up their 5th best defensive player in order to get a compensatory pick... with 4/4/8 I think that almost everyone would keep the full 8 most years. I like the compensatory pick system you came up with, except line 6 should read rounds 12,10,8,6,4,3. Finally, I think 3 seasons should be the max instead of 4, but you should have the option of designating a franchise player (1 offense, 1 defense) who if you keep beyond 3 seasons he counts double as a keeper, both against your team max as well as the offense max. In the case that after 3 years you kept Faulk and 2 'new' defensive guys, you would get the compensatory picks as if you had held 4 players instead of 3 (no 4th round pick)... but you would still need an extra pick to fill my roster because he was "double counted". That pick would come at the end of the draft. It's only one player per O/D, and you have to pay a heavy price to do it, but I think it should at least be an option. "
Obviously since then we've determined 8 IS the max but we didnt determine whether or not we'd adopt the exact system he has outlined.
135
Doug
ID: 3411223 Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 20:17
Good thoughts mike... I still like the "2- conference head to head" schedule which gets us through 16 weeks (play your 5 conference opponents twice each, and play once per season against each team in the other conference). Week 17 we either go based on overall record 1v2, 3v4, etc. or go confernce v. conference with 1v1, 2v2, etc. Either way, the champion could be determined either by best overall record after 17 weeks, or with either approach we could have an official "title game" (1st overall v 2nd overall, or conference A 1st place vs. conference B 1st place). We could also realign conferences each year for "parity", or we could keep conferences the same year-to-year for "realism". A comprimise might be to have realignment every 2-4 years.
As for AP10 making picks for you if you ask him to, it's not my call obviously, but my two cents is that I don't have a problem with it. If you're trusting him to pick with your queue, there's no reason you can't trust him to pick without it.
Waivers... are we cool with the simple rule of 48 hours from the first claim. Claims can be made 24/7, and are always subject to the 48 hour period (no separate 60-hour rule). Your roster must be set 1 hour before first game of the week.
Board of review - I like the idea of a 3 or 4 person committee best... simply leaving it up to AP10 is an acceptable alternative... but these things usually need relatively quick action and trying to coordinate decisions league-wide between 12 managers will be far too problematic.
136
Doug
ID: 3411223 Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 20:27
Sorry if there's redundancy in my prior post... yet another "they posted while I was typing" scenario.
If the keeper status "resets" to 0 after a trade then I can envision that a couple of years from now we'll just have a bunch of "Terrell Owens and Curtis Martin for Randy Moss and Tiki Barber" type trades, where teams are just swapping equivalent players for the sole purpose of "resetting" their keeper status. I'm not saying this is necessarily bad, at least the trading should be interesting. But it's just something to think about.
Doug, good point about resetting the keeper status after a trade. I'm open to a 2 conference schedule, like you have suggested. I think that 48 hours of pending time between trades/FA/waiver pickups is plenty of time to get a group of 6 rejecting managers. I hear from the majority of managers daily as it is.
I think you have solved the problem with not making a pick. If you give me the go ahead to draft for you in accordance with the 2001 pts list then that would be the equivalent of leaving a queue with me (if it timed out). If you dont give me the go ahead, then there will be a 6 pick penalty.
138
dgrooves
ID: 364522113 Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 20:44
Keepers: 8 keepers, with 4 max O and 4 max D is fine with me. I say a player can be kept for a max of 5 or 6 years.
Waivers: I can live with 36-hour waiting period, assuming a player can be claimed at any time.
H2H/Playoffs: I only want to play head to head with playoffs if there is a 4 or 8 team playoff. What is appealing about a one game playoff? To me, nothing, especially if the "playoffs" occur in week 17, a week that virtually all leagues avoid during their H2H seasons.
Draft Penalty: I agree with AP10 that it should be equal for everyone. I think the pick should be made for the person if he fails to make his assigned pick.
139
dgrooves
ID: 364522113 Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 20:52
Why do we need a go-ahead and a penalty? Why not make the pick for the person if he fails to make his pick?
If we're going to use this penalty, then I give you guys permision to make any pick for me should I fail to make an assigned pick. I suggest everyone do the same.
141
Doug
ID: 3411223 Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 21:18
I agree that week 17 "playoffs" are undesirable, so I would suggest the 2- conference scheme, either with or without a week 17 game. Even if we play week 17, it counts just like any other week... not a "title game". Best W-L record at the end of the season wins. Tiebreakers and scheduling for this option were laid out in post 27.
The other option I see is a 4-team playoff with 3 divisions. Play your division twice, the other divsions once, that's 14 weeks. Weeks 15 and 16 are the 4-team playoff. We could have a 4- team ".500 champ" and a 4-team "Toilet Bowl" playoff as well, to keep everyone playing through week 15, and half the teams through week 16.
An 8-team playoff still ends up with the title game in week 17, same as a 1-game playoff system would. So I think we should drop both the 1-game and 8-game playoff schemes for this same reason. I have other oppositions to 8-game playoffs, but this one alone should suffice.
142
mike
ID: 326391819 Thu, Aug 01, 2002, 12:48
keepers-I like the trading of the status. that way makes trades intriguing (keep a guy even though I lose him or trade him if rebuilding) plus it keeps the players in the loop. some players will never ever get into the draft if the keeper status resets.
I do like the 4 years max as well
missed picks-I give permission for any pick to be made for me based on last year stats
playoffs-I don't really care which way they go. possible suggestion for the week 17 problem I've read about is where it's possible for you to carry over week 16 stats to the week 17 game (although you have to declare it ahead of time) not sure I like it but it is an option.
143
Doug
ID: 3411223 Fri, Aug 02, 2002, 12:40
The only problem with the keeper status staying constant after trades is that we'll most likely (at least for the first four years), have relatively uninteresting drafts in years 1-3, then a flood in year 4 (or 5, depending on how we set up the maximum). On the other hand, resetting to 0 makes it too easy to just swap a couple studs after a couple years.
Maybe we could have a rule that if a player has been traded during the first half of the season, then the new manager can keep him at the end of that year for "free" (but he maintains his prior keeper status). For example, manager A drafts Faulk and holds him 2 years. During year 3 (after keepers were announced for year 3), he is traded before week 8 to Manager B. Manager B can now keep Faulk at the end of the year, and his keeper status stays at 2 years (rather than increasing to 3). The following year, if Manager B keeps Faulk through week 8, then Faulk's keeper status will increase to 3 years, even if he is traded after week 8.
A player would have to be traded every single year (between keeper announcement and week 8) in order to not eventually return to the draft. The week 8 deadline is to prevent a late-season (or offseason) stud-swap trade for the sole purpose of maintaining their keeper status. But if you acquire a new player at the beginning of the year, you'll always at least be able to keep him for one year before sending them back into the draft pool.
In my opinion, this could be in addition to the "franchise player" rule (post 19)... or we could bail on the franchise player rule. I prefer a 3 year max with franchise player option vs. a straight 4 year max... I think it will keep more players flowing through the draft, yet allow a stud to be kept if you're willing to pay the price.
144
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 39143521 Fri, Aug 02, 2002, 16:39
A vocal bunch...c'mon guys. I need input from managers other than the four that are talking...
145
beebop
ID: 30644276 Fri, Aug 02, 2002, 18:00
I like the resetting of the keeper status. But i realise how none of the good players would make the draft. And then just one year, they would all be there again. So how about a maximum number of times the keeper status can be reset??? Maybe just once or twice.
I dont mind how long the waiver period is. It's all good.
Id like to see everyone involved in playoffs. It just keeps everyone playing (hopefully) for the whole season.
I dont mind someone making a pick for me if i dont leave a que and im not here. Its my own fault if that happens.
147
Doug
ID: 3411223 Sat, Aug 03, 2002, 18:25
On the subject of draft order (after this year), I previosly liked the idea of a lottery for the bottom 4 teams, but now that I'm warming to the idea of playoffs (as long as it's 4-team not 8-team), then another option is that the winner of the "Toilet Bowl" (playoff between bottom 4 teams) gets the first pick, followed by the runner-up. 3rd and 4th picks determined by record, such that the team with the worst record in the league is guaranteed to at least get the #3 pick, even if they lose in the first round of the playoffs. It's really not a huge deal since it's a keeper league, so we're essentially starting in round 9 each year, but I think this is better than a straight "worst picks first" rule because it's more interesting, and keeps teams at the bottom with a reason to compete all season and something to play for in the playoffs.
The playoff for teams 5-8 could be run in much the same way, such that the winner gets the #5 pick, just to make it more interesting for those teams as well. I think the championship is enough of an incentive, however, without it affecting draft order. =-)
148
Doug
ID: 3411223 Sat, Aug 03, 2002, 18:37
One more draft order issue... the point of a serpentine draft is so that even if you pick last in the first round, you aren't at that much of a disadvantage since you get the first second round pick, etc. Basically, it serves to "balance" the draft.
But then that kind of defeats the purpose of allowing the bottom teams to draft first, especially in a keeper league where the "first" round is really equivalent to round 9... so it's not like you're usually getting a stud-quality player with that first pick. In order for it to really make much sense, you'd want to do it like a normal real-life NFL draft, where the bottom teams pick first every round, not every other round.
So, to summarize... in following years drafts, we'll just keep the same pick order every round, right? Just wanted to make sure (and provide explanation why in case it wasn't intuitive).
149
Doug
ID: 3411223 Sat, Aug 03, 2002, 19:52
Keepers - I heard an interesting idea that I thought I'd throw out there... it's contract-based. Someone mentioned they didn't like contracts because you were locked in, or you had to predetermine how long you wanted to keep a guy... but I don't think that's really so with this system.
When we announce our keepers next July, we have 8 contracts tha we can assign our guys: 2 4-year contracts, 3 3-year contracts, and 3 2-year contracts. You are free to "waive" a guy at any time during or after the season, you don't HAVE to keep him just because he's on contract. The contract is just the maximum of how long he can be kept. If he is traded his contract goes with him, if he is waived and picked up then it doesn't. The only "predetermining" is who to give the 4 year vs. 3 year vs. 2 year, but this is (a) strategically interesting, and (b) not that big of a deal... keep in mind that a 4-year contract is actually on your roster for 5 years, and a 2-year contract for 3 years (first year isn't under contract)... so that's still a good length of time to be able to hold onto a guy.
For example, a first round pick would probably get a 4-year contract at the end of this year, so we'd see him again in the draft in 2007 if he's not cut beforehand. On the other hand, your "6th, 7th, and 8th" best keepers would be back in the draft in 2005 at the latest. This keeps a flow of players coming back into the draft each year, rather than one monster draft every few years.
Additionally, each year (except the first year) you'd have the option to allocate additional 4, 3, 2, and 1 year contracts (max. one of each) to players you drafted or picked up off waivers (no re-signings of players with expiring contracts), so you can have 4 "new" keepers each year. However, the max 8 keeper rule would remain in effect, so you'd have to release or trade away at least one existing player under contract in order to assign all 4 of your new ones. Make sense? Feedback?
150
dgrooves
ID: 364522113 Sun, Aug 04, 2002, 10:52
I like that idea Doug. I have one question, but its a logisitcal one, not a criticsm of the idea. How (or who) will keep track of the contracts? It isnt something that would be complicated to do, but Im guessing the software doesnt handle it.
151
Doug
ID: 3411223 Sun, Aug 04, 2002, 15:25
We could just keep a list (I'd volunteer if nobody else wanted to)... I think I'd make it two lists... first just alphabetical by player under contract, showing their last season under contract and when they return to the draft.
The second list would be "by year" so that you could see how strong or weak the pool of players returning to the draft any given year would be... although again there's no guarantee that a player will actually be held until the end of their contract, they could be released early. But still, helpful info I think.
With 8 keepers per team, that's a total max of 96 players to keep track of... not that big of a deal. Pretty low maintenance.
152
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 431138618 Sun, Aug 04, 2002, 17:06
Yeah, it wouldnt be a big deal to add to the site...I'll be home tonight to discuss these ideas further.
153
mike
ID: 474451 Mon, Aug 05, 2002, 01:49
ok couple of thoughts
future draft orders-I know what your saying doug but what about a modified snake order. say first round last to first. second round last to first. then reverse back third round.
after that you can snake every round or repeat the above formula so that every 3rd round the top teams get a bit of break. just a thought borrowed from fanball.
also I love the playoff idea for higher draft picks. it's an excellent way to keep everyone going and not throwing games. we keep discounting the draft in the future but it is going to be important with the rookies and some good players are going to go back in the draft. keepers-I like your idea. I'd help out with that if needed as well for keeping track. pretty unique and cool.
that's all I have for now I think
154
mike
ID: 474451 Mon, Aug 05, 2002, 01:51
actually 1 more thing
1 day left!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
anything we should go over before the draft starts or are we cool with everything?
155
Doug
ID: 3411223 Mon, Aug 05, 2002, 03:47
There have been a lot of different issues discussed, so I've been keeping a "living document" that is a sort of state-of-the-discussion at this point. It gets hard to go read back through multiple posts to figure out what everybody is talking about sometimes. Some of these items are more "set" than others, and text in italic represents unresolved issues/ questions. I like what mike said about going serpentine starting with round 3 rather than 2 (in future years) so I included that suggestion for now.
Please feel free to refer to this, and voice your opinion on anything that you feel needs to be changed. The main points being discussed right now are the keeper system and the schedule/playoff system. Hardcore Rules Summary
156
mike
ID: 474451 Mon, Aug 05, 2002, 04:42
thanks doug
good summery of everything, nothing more to add, going back to work
157
mike
ID: 474451 Mon, Aug 05, 2002, 06:18
hey ap
if a spot ever opens up in the baseball pool, I'd like to be considered for a spot :)
thanks
158
IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621 Mon, Aug 05, 2002, 08:50
is there any chance of building a basketball keepers league like this one?
159
dgrooves
ID: 364522113 Mon, Aug 05, 2002, 12:25
Doug, looking through the document you made, there is one issue I want to bring up. I think everyone is at a disadvantage if we are forced to set our starting lineups 1 hour before the first game of the week. I can think of a number of times when I needed to wait until Sunday before I could find out if one of my top players was going to start in a week with a Thursday or Saturday game.
Virtually every league I have seen sets the deadline to 1 hour before each specific player's game starts. Even the TSN/SmallWorld game has made that change this year. Assuming the software can support it, I think we should allow the flexible deadline.
A prime example of this was Week 6 (I believe) last year. There was a Thursday game and there was also uncertainlty about Marshall Faulk's status for his game on Sunday. It wasnt until Sunday that we knew Canidate was going to get the start. Say I had Faulk and Canidate on my roster. Am I expected to sit both simply because, as of Thursday, I dont know which will start?
160
Doug
ID: 3411223 Mon, Aug 05, 2002, 13:59
Sounds good to me dgrooves... we just need AP10 to confirm the software can handle individual deadlines rather than team deadlines
161
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 21693013 Mon, Aug 05, 2002, 15:01
There will be no individual deadlines. The deadline will be the exact same time for each team/manager therefore nobody will be disadvantaged + the software will not allow individual changes up to gametime.
162
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 21693013 Mon, Aug 05, 2002, 15:11
I just wanted to reiterate this.
This league was not intended to MIMIC boring fantasy leagues such as yahoo, cbs, ESPN, etc. This league is 100% different, think outside of the lines...
163
dgrooves
ID: 364522113 Mon, Aug 05, 2002, 15:47
If the software cant handle a flexible deadline, fine. But to say that some people will be "disadvantaged" just doesnt make sense. Frankly, I think its pretty obvious that everyone is hurt by being forced to set lineups days before we get injury reports.
As for the MIMICING boring leagues comment, I guess it was directed at me. Before telling me to open up my mind, do the same and think about why so many leagues have adopted this practice. It is the fairest way to set lineups. Yahoo, cbs, ESPN, etc leagues arent boring because of starting lineup deadlines or waiver priorities...they're boring because most people who play them dont know what they're doing. Im (fairly) sure most people who dont play those league will agree with me on the deadline issue.
164
dgrooves
ID: 364522113 Mon, Aug 05, 2002, 15:51
I just re-read post 161. Does "the software will not allow individual changes up to gametime" mean the software can only handle one deadline, or that the software cant handle changes up to 5 minutes before each game?
To clarify, I was suggesting a flexible deadline 1 hour before each game.
165
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 21693013 Mon, Aug 05, 2002, 16:19
dgrooves, the software can only handle 1 set deadline, which I've set to 1 hour prior to gametime. I never stated which is better. I think both have their advantages...
The deadline is the same for each team therefore each manager will have to deal with the same issues. How is this something an advantage/disadvantage if it is the same for everyone?
Btw, the comment wasnt directed towards you rather the league. I'm tired of hearing, this league does this, that league does that. Just because bigger name sites have certain rules doesnt make them necessarily right or better than other rules.
166
dgrooves
ID: 364522113 Mon, Aug 05, 2002, 16:50
Ah, but it isnt the same for everyone. Not everyone has the same information reagrding their starters if the deadline isnt flexible. In the Faulk example I gave above, the owner of Faulk and Canidate is hurt.
167
dgrooves
ID: 364522113 Mon, Aug 05, 2002, 17:07
On a more important note, we've got the draft in about 29 hours.
Could we clarify how the draft is going to work? How many rounds are we going to complete tomorrow? Will we be doing the draft on the boards or on the league website? If its the website, can we get some directions on how to draft players? What will the draft clock be for tomorrow night?
168
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 15119260 Mon, Aug 05, 2002, 17:11
An email will be sent out shortly with this info. We wont be able to get much done tomorrow night though other than kick the draft off...
169
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 15119260 Mon, Aug 05, 2002, 17:39
Emails have been sent.
170
culdeus Donor
ID: 46046416 Mon, Aug 05, 2002, 18:45
I sent an email to AP to the same extent. When I arrived home my house watcher was supposed to have me all set w/ DSL etc. No dice (not even phone), I think he just smoked out the whole time. No way I can participate in a night-time or any other kind of draft this week. I really wanted to do this but it looks like continuing to sell my soul to TSN is the only way to go for me. I might be able to put together a short list of other candiates.
171
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 15119260 Mon, Aug 05, 2002, 18:55
Art asked to be in. I will give him a call tonight to see if he still wants to be and if he'll be able to with such a short notice. If not, I will get back to you for a list of respectable subs.
172
dwfffan
ID: 50717519 Mon, Aug 05, 2002, 19:28
APerfect10: I would be willing to fill the league if needed. My trip to CA was a wash. I have been paying attention to the board and have a good idea of whats going on. Let me know if I can help.
Dennis
173
Doug
ID: 3411223 Mon, Aug 05, 2002, 21:13
I'm confused... I didn't think culdeus was one of our 12 managers... who exactly has dropped out (from the list of 12 in the inital post of this thread)?
174
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 18712521 Mon, Aug 05, 2002, 21:13
dwfffan, excellent!
The homepage is here which contains everything. I will send you the email I sent the rest of the league a few hours ago...
AP10
175
beebop
ID: 30644276 Mon, Aug 05, 2002, 21:15
Doug....im confused aswell.....but hey, thats just me :)
176
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 18712521 Mon, Aug 05, 2002, 21:18
Email sent to dwfffan@aol.com
doug, tduncan dropped out awhile back and Culdeus joined. Unfortunately I dont have the powers to edit posts or I would've changed it. If you took notice of the draft list/teams on the website, tduncan hasnt been listed and Culdeus has been.
177
dwfffan
ID: 50717519 Mon, Aug 05, 2002, 22:33
Got the e-mail and the rush is on. I take it that I am replacing Culdeus's team and just wondering about any ID or Password. Also I see I have the 10th pick correct?
178
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 39143521 Mon, Aug 05, 2002, 22:34
dwfffan, yes, you are replacing Culdeus' team. I will change your team/manager name and password. Your default password will be 'dwfffan'. I will forward you the email I sent the league about how to change your password, helmet, etc...
179
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 39143521 Mon, Aug 05, 2002, 22:43
ugh...couldnt find the old email.
To change your team name/password go to the league webpage. Click on your team name, above your helmet (right hand side of the screen).
This will take you to your Team Profile. Under your helmet, click 'Edit Team Info'.
In the box Authenticate (old ID): type your default password 'dwfffan'. Enter your new password in 2 boxes, User ID: & Confirm ID then click on submit. You can also change your team name & helmet in this menu. They are self explanatory.
If you have any problems, let me know. Remember, we'll probably only get through 1 round tomorrow night so you should have time...
ps. When it says User ID / ID it is means password. Some people get this confused.
180
dwfffan
ID: 50717519 Mon, Aug 05, 2002, 22:52
OK, I think I got it. I have time to play around. Thanks.
181
mike
ID: 28728610 Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 10:28
ummmmmmm stupid me
can't remember my password (I'm pretty sure)
after I'm done my radio show I"ll check it out, just wondering if you have the power to reset the password?
also I'll be sending out a list to cover me through the second round since I'll be working
182
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 55710610 Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 10:56
Mike & others, try your default password (Mike) if the password you reset it to doesnt work. I made a mistake last night therefore any PW changed within the last 36-48 hours were reset. My apologies.
183
mike
ID: 276162420 Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 11:11
the default isn't working, stupid me didn't write what I changed it too
is this a problem?
184
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 55710610 Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 11:23
mike, I'll change it to your default PW (mike) when I go home over lunch break. It'll be changed by 12:30pm EST.
185
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 55710610 Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 11:24
So far only 1 person has notified me that they are leaving a queue. Will the rest of the league be online at 10pm EST?
186
mike
ID: 276162420 Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 11:27
I'm making my list now, just double checking it actually
hope I can sneak onto the website at work tonight to see what happened in the draft...
187
mike
ID: 276162420 Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 11:28
thanks for the password by the way
guess I'll say good luck everyone...just not too much :)
188
IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621 Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 11:44
guys i just want to pray you to be really fast tonight, because it'll be 4 in the night here in italy when the draft will start......oh, and if you'll not hear me after a certain period don't worry: i'll be sleeping on the keyboard.....;-)
189
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 39143521 Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 12:22
mike, your PW was reset.
IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO, any updates on the website?
190
wiggs@apartment
ID: 11032171 Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 16:08
ap10, why dont you think we will be able to get through to many rounds tonight? Are people not going to be around or what?
191
beebop
ID: 30644276 Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 16:09
I may end up leaving a que....
192
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 21693013 Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 16:09
wiggs, did you read my email I sent yesterday?
193
Ike44
ID: 10821818 Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 16:14
i will be online tonight at 10...hope to see everyone there!
194
beebop
ID: 30644276 Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 17:18
I left you a que. I should be there though, it just depends on how my exam goes and how sick i am by that time.....
195
Nerfherders
ID: 2075513 Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 17:47
I'm having trouble with the edit team info box. I hit submit but nothing changes.
196
Doug
ID: 3411223 Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 20:50
you have to type your old pasword in the first box, and then your changes and/or new password (password = User ID) down below, then hit submit... make sure you have your old password right
197
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 39143521 Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 22:01
Jeddi, where ya at buddy? Its 10:03pm EST!
198
IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 02:57
doug, what do you want for edge?
199
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 55710610 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 08:31
Gilette
200
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 55710610 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 10:26
All I am going to say is I'm pretty *bleeping* mad right now at Jeddi. His actions are inexcusable and will be made known to the rest of the gurupies...
201
IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 10:39
what did he do?
202
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 55710610 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 10:44
He tells me NOW that he is doesnt have time for this league. He had 3 freaking weeks to drop out, he confirmed that he was in multiple times. Ok, its almost draft time, if you cant be in, let me know BEFORE the draft, not after its started!
Worst of all, dont freaking lie to me telling me you dont have time for this league because you take a couple hours a day to writeup a detailed report on each team's TSN FF preview! That is complete BS!
He will be exposed. His actions are downright inexcusable and are very non-gurupie like. I would've had NO problem if he dropped out before the draft started. You DO NOT wait until a draft starts then drop out. Non only is that a downright slap in my face, its also a slap in the face to the rest of the managers of the league and the future manager of his spot.
203
dwfffan
ID: 50717519 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 10:51
Can or have you found a replacement. (I have no problem with you drafting until one is found.)
204
IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 11:39
he's really a bad person. anyway, the good part of it is that now we know that we need another manager after just 2 rounds, and not with the season started.....we just have to ask in the football forum.
205
Nerfherders
ID: 2075513 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 12:42
Does Art still want in? I wouldnt mind having one more player from TPKL to whup up on again ;)
206
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 21693013 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 13:15
Jeddi "the ignorant imposter gurupie" is OUT.
ART of MONK is in. When its his turn to draft, the clock will temporarily be suspended until he is ready. It wouldnt be fair to him to rush him.
207
mike
ID: 556102515 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 14:04
a return fu to you derek
I wanted urlacher :)
208
mike
ID: 556102515 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 14:45
will I get a warning or something with art on the clock now when it starts up?
just worried about missing my pick. guess I can send a queue. never mind
don't mind me, not quite awake and trying to figure things out :)
209
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 21693013 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 14:47
mike, I would suspect that ART will pick before 5pm EST. Maybe even before 4pm EST.
210
mike
ID: 556102515 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 14:53
I'm off to visit my kids, I'll just give you a 2 person list, thanks man
211
Doug
ID: 3411223 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 15:53
Hey Derek, did you get email from Lazio and myself regarding the Edge trade? Will you have time to update the draft picks before we get to them? (the first one being about 10 picks away right now...)
212
mike
ID: 326391819 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 16:04
what trade, what trade
do tell, no holding out
213
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 39143521 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 16:20
Doug, yeah, they will be updated before it gets to you....hopefully ;)
214
Doug
ID: 3411223 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 16:39
I traded Edge to Lazio for his 5th round pick, then also swapped the following picks:
his 4 for my 5 his 6 for my 7 his 7 for my 8 his 8 for my 9 his 9 for my 10 his 10 for my 11 his 19 for my 20 his 20 for my 21
Basically, I traded Edge for the 5th round pick (his advantage) and then traded up "half a round" in the 8 rounds listed above (my advantage). I think he got the better half of the deal in retrospect, but I'm not too worried about it. It is all going to depend on how Edge does this year and the next... so we shall see!
215
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 39143521 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 16:41
Doug, you are up and you appear back??? I'll give you 10 min to make your pick, if you dont I'll use the 2 man queue you sent me.
216
Doug
ID: 3411223 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 16:45
it's not my pick... it's mike's... he left you a queue, I didn't
217
Doug
ID: 3411223 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 16:58
Ummm... Derek? You around? I can't IM ya...
218
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 39143521 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 16:59
lol...I was thinking Mike and was looking at your post above mine so I switched them :( Sorry about that.
Notes I added three formats to view draft results, Team By Team, Round By Round & Position By Position. Links are found on the league websites main page. **The Links seem to currently be running slow. They should speed up by tonight/tomorrow. If they dont, I'll move them to a faster site.
219
mike
ID: 46712717 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 17:12
yeah that was my pick. what time does
we supposed to be talking trash in here or not?
just curious :)
220
mike
ID: 46712717 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 17:17
I like the trade, may hurt you in the long run if edge regains, but that's a big if
a chance to move up though is always solid
although I may of wanted a 3rd rounder at least for edge instead of a fifth, lol
221
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 39143521 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 17:21
holy crap! I just entered Dougs & Mikes trade and it reset the whole draft. Ugh, lots of manual work to do now! :(
222
mike
ID: 46712717 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 17:25
ouch that blows
but it's not my trade...it's lazio
223
Art of Monk
ID: 395332017 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 17:27
That really blows.
224
Doug
ID: 3411223 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 17:33
There's multiple ways of looking at it... another way of looking at it is that I traded Edge and my 11th round pick for his 4th and 6th round picks, and then I traded down a few spots in a few other rounds...
Maybe in the meantime, DWFffan, if you're reading this, please post your pick here so we can keep things rolling along... especially if Derek doesn't have time to finish resetting everything before he goes to work... maybe we can just keep it going in here instead?
225
mike
ID: 46712717 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 17:38
hope the pick doesn't get back to me in the next couple of hours.
I think I'm going to be queueing again, which is cool
well I'll check back in a couple of hours
226
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 39143521 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 17:54
Alright, its fixed. dwfffan is up and his 2 hour clock expires at 8pm EST. Ill be gone until 9pm EST.
Later.
227
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 39143521 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 18:01
ugh..mikes team is showing Brooks on his team, but its not showing up as his final pick. Now its stuck on him.
228
dwfffan
ID: 50717519 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 18:01
3-9 Sandwich Town Statics is on the clock acording to the war room.
229
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 39143521 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 18:02
ok, 100% fixed, dwfffan is up. Sorry about that guys.
Later, see ya at 9pm EST
230
Doug
ID: 3411223 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 18:31
nice pick dwf... it's coming back to you real quick... stick around
231
dwfffan
ID: 50717519 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 18:35
I will be in and out all evening. Save my seat..
232
Art of Monk
ID: 395332017 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 18:35
How should I leave a que with? I don't want to have to check all evening. I know that I am still 6 picks away, but I will only be on for another 2hrs. max. or late this evening 12est.
233
dwfffan
ID: 50717519 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 18:41
APerfect10: When you re did the draft you gave me the wrong Rickey Williams.......
234
Art of Monk
ID: 395332017 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 18:56
Looking to trade the pick? Swap picks the next 2 rds or something. My email is mboyack@sa.utah.edu I will be around for another hour or so.
235
Doug
ID: 3411223 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 19:22
mboyack? not myboyjack or something like that? anyway, you're up now... do you use AOL IM like the rest of us? what's your screenname?
236
IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 19:38
derek inmy team doesn't figure edge......when you'll have time give a look, no problems, take your time....
237
IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 19:41
and hey, i feel fine having manning, edge, ste. davis and rod smith already signed....now....let me shut up, or i'm going to say my next pick.....
238
Doug
ID: 3411223 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 21:55
Derek, where you at? You got 30 mins left on your clock... do you get a penalty for not leaving your queue with one of us? heh heh
239
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 18712521 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 22:15
i'm here...give me a sec. We had some major networking headaches here at work. I was expecting to be up by 9 and its already almost 10:30pm EST.
240
Doug
ID: 3411223 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 22:32
curse yoouoouuuuuuuuuuuu AP10
normally I don't plan a pick before my turn... but the one time I do (because I was waiting so long)... you snag him from under me....
=-)
241
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 18712521 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 22:41
Doug, you have 0% chance of going tonight. Ike went to bed and was unable to give me a queue...his time wont expire until tomorrow, unless 2 picks are made within the next 10 min.
242
Doug
ID: 3411223 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 22:46
what do you mean? i just went!!!
243
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 18712521 Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 22:59
lol...nevermind, I was thinking of someone else. Long long day. Worked 7-4:30, was home 90 minutes, 45 of which I had to fix the draft, back to work from 6-11 (and I'm still not home!)
244
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 39143521 Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 00:30
dwfffan, I changed your pick to the correct Ricky Williams. ;) My apologies...
Doug & LAZIO, I moved Edge from Doug's roster to LAZIO's. I also mentioned on the ticker that the pick 3.1 #25 overall was Traded to Italian Eagles. Do both of your draft positionings look correct the rest of the way? They should be, let me know if anything is wrong. ------------------- What a rough day. I worked 14.5 hours, lost a manager who was extremely ignorant, lost my draft info! (luckily we only got through 3 rounds at that point!)
Hopefully tomorrow will be better, Ike will make his pick before 10am EST and I will have his queue for his 2nd pick. Hopefully we can push through some picks quickly tomorrow!
G'night...
245
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 18712521 Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 10:09
LAZIO is on the clock. I believe he should be around....
246
IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621 Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 11:04
picked......but now tell me if my choice to pick trotter is to premature....i need an opinion....
247
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 18712521 Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 11:20
I dont believe Jeremiah is the 4th best LB in the game, so I would say, yes...
Are you a Deadskin fan?
248
IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621 Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 11:26
no, i was a huge houston oilers fan, since a great td of hernest givins (the electric knight) in a game against i don't remember who..... who do you think is the 4th lb in the game? i was also interested in barrow or gildon, but trotter is younger and more motivated since joining a new team full of defensive talent in which he has to prove to be a real stud....
249
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 18712521 Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 11:36
Did you already forget that you DO NOT discuss players that havent been drafted yet? C'mon man....delete your post.
250
mike
ID: 42740811 Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 11:40
7 picks until me, gotta go bday shopping though for my daughters
not leaving a queue. if anything I'll go online at the mall and check :)
anyone feel they made any bad picks yet?
251
mike
ID: 42740811 Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 11:52
so clarification on the no player talk rule
we can talk about who've we've drafted right? and also people who've been drafted since?
ie-I pick player a, in hindsight I think I should of picked player b but now he's been drafted a few picks later, that's cool right?
252
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 18712521 Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 11:55
As long as your talk does not mention any players that have not currently been drafted.
253
mike
ID: 42740811 Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 11:56
k thanks
254
Nerfherders
ID: 2075513 Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 11:58
I think I just drafted the 2nd best FANTASY lb in the game, if he stays healthy.
255
mike
ID: 42740811 Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 12:02
so gotta ask...
if your nerfherder a star wars reference, music reference or both :)
256
Nerfherders
ID: 2075513 Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 12:14
Star Wars! nice to pick up on that mike :)
257
Doug
ID: 21922183 Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 12:24
Please explain... I don't remember there being any nerf equipment in Star Wars, let alone anybody "herding" the nerf equipment...
258
Art of Monk
ID: 395332017 Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 12:36
I will admit I need some help with def. players rankings, I need to find a good site. Thanks
259
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 18712521 Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 13:13
I dont think Zach Thomas is the 2nd best fantasy LB in the game. A solid top 5 LB & ranked 2nd last year, but a top 5 this year...
260
Nerfherders
ID: 2075513 Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 13:16
I will explain one time, so listen up!
Empire Strikes Back, on Hoth, in the scene where Luke is recovering from the Wampa attack, his friends come in to greet him:
Leia: General Rieeken thinks its unsafe for any ship to leave the system. Han: That's a good story. I think you can't let a gorgeus guy like me out of your sight. Leia: I don't know where you get your delusions, laserbrain. Chewie: *laughs* Han: Laugh it up, fuzzball. But you didn't see us in the south passage. She expressed her true feelings for me. Leia: True feeli... why you stuck up, half-witted, scruffy looking... NERFHERDER! Han: Who's scruffy lookin'? Han: You must have hit it pretty close to the mark to get her all riled up like that, huh kid? Leia: I guess you don't know everything about women yet. *The famous incestuous kiss between Luke and Leia*
So, who knows what a nerfherder actually is, or even a nerf, for that matter, but when I was thinking of a team name, that one stuck in my mind. Been the Nerfherders ever since, on just about every fantasy league.
261
Doug
ID: 21922183 Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 13:53
That helps... I had this image of you walking around a large pile of nerf footballs, trying to keep any of them from rolling away...
262
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 18712521 Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 14:35
Melaleuca??? Your 2 hours are almost up and I have no queue...
263
APerfect10 Leader
ID: 18712521 Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 15:49