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Sports Challenge     Sandbox Football 0 Subject: Gurupie 24-team NFL Replica League FINAL rules Posted by: rockafellerskank - Sustainer [127171211] Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 15:22 Below you will see the final rules posted. If anyone is interested, I can e-mail them to you in MS Word format. The rules can also be viewed at the website by going to "help" / "rules" link from the main page. Here are few last points: Payment: I just paid for the site. You will shortly receive a "payment request" e-mail from me. The cost of the site will be $6.00/each. The optional prize pool participation will be $15.00. I can accept payment via Pay Pal or checks/cask/money order via US Mail. I'll have details in the e-mail. Many of you have already contacted me offering payment; thank you. As a reminder to everyone else, if I don't receive payment from you by 8/29/02, I may remove you from the league. It's not so much a matter of the money, but a matter of "if you don't pay, I have to question your committment level" If anyone has a payment problem/delay, please let me know and I will extend the time as long as you are committed. Rules: I have went over the rules for endeless hours (literally) with CCRider via telephone and Ref via AIM. Everyone has had over 1 week to comment and provide input. Unless there is a major gaffe in rules procedures, this is the FINAL version. I'll be happy to answer any questions as to why we structured a particular rule they way we did. Draft: The draft is still "live" on 8/31/02 beginning at 1PM EST. If you cannot make the draft, I urge to to pre-rank your players. you can do this by going to the "rank players" link under Draft Prep. 1 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 127171211       Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 15:25 A big thanks to Ref and CCRider for helping me get this league off the ground. I'd like to encourage a lot of commentary (trash talk) via message board or rotoguru board or e-mail, so feel free to get involved. BTW, you can reach all owners at once via e-mail @ rfsrfs@football.fantasy.sportsline.com rfs ® 3 Ref       ID: 28045169       Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 15:36 There is an error in this doc that is not on the site--I believe the site is right and I will check to be sure. A receiving 2pt conversion is worth 2 pts and a passing 2 pt conversion is only worth 1--just to quell the discussion before it begins ;) 5 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 127171211       Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 16:06 good catch, Ref... corrected.... Gurupie Replica NFL Fantasy League Commissioner: Tim Robertson “rockafellerskank” rockafellerskank007@yahoo.com Assistant Commissioner: “Ref” refguru@yahoo.com Assistant Commissioner: “CCRider” Jbarnett_13@yahoo.com General Commissioner E-mail: gurupie2002@yahoo.com E-mail to all Owners: rfsrfs@football.fantasy.sportsline.com I Sign Up / Pre-Season You should have received an “invite” e-mail from CBS Sportline.com. If you didn’t please contact me ASAP. The website will cost $140 for the season. I will pay it in advance and divide the cost equally by 24 owners ( $6.00 each). Payment will be due to me by 8/29/02. I will e-mail the details out later (pay pal or US Mail). I reserve the right to remove any deadbeats from the league before the draft. II Draft The Draft will be held “live” online 8/31/02 @ 1:00 PM (EST). The draft date will not be changed and once started, it cannot be stopped for any reason. You may log on and draft live or you may pre-rank players and let the computer auto-pick for you. You will have only 60 seconds per pick once it is your turn. If you fail to pick, the computer will select the next highest ranked player in your personal queue (if you set one) or the next highest ranked player you pre-ranked (if you pre-ranked) or the next highest ranked player by default. The draft order will be “randomized” before the draft begins. The draft order will snake. CBS currently has 381 players available in their database (including 32 D/ST’s). 24 owners X 13 rounds means that 312 players will be taken and a free agent pool of about 70 players will remain. It is likely that additional players will be added as the season progresses. It was previously discussed to limit QBs, Ks, and Ds to one each, however with the reduction from 28 to 24 teams, this rule has been eliminated. It will be mathematically possible to end up without a QB, K or D, but unlikely. You should PLAN YOUR DRAFT accordingly. If you end up without a QB, K or D, you have 2 choices: 1) Trade for what you need with an owner who has spare parts 2) Play without that position. It is OK leave a position open on your starting lineup without penalty. III Roster Freeze Each week, you must set your starting lineup. Only players in your starting lineup will generate points. Owners may change the status (IE start or bench) of individual players up to 5 minutes before their game. No changes can be made after this time. It is your sole responsibility to set your lineup. No excuses! No Internet, too bad, Computer huffed, too bad. Got drunk and over-slept, too bad. However, the commissioners do have the ability to set your lineup. If you are away or have a legitimate excuse in advance of roster freeze (24-hour notice preferred), you can e-mail your changes to us. No Guarantees, but if possible we will make your lineup changes. If you e-mail your request and I don’t get it, too bad. THERE WILL BE NO RETROACTIVE LINEUP CHANGES. Please don’t ask. Starters: 1 QB 1 WR 1 RB 1 TE 1 Kicker 1 Defense / Special Teams 2 Flex- can be any extra TE, RB or WR (not an extra QB, K, or D/ST) You may choose to start less that the 8 maximum players. However, you can’t start more than 3 WRs, or 3RBs or 3 TE’s. For example, you could NOT legally start 1 QB, 2 RBs, 1 WR 0 TE’s + K + D + RB-flex + RB-flex. = 8. In this case, the owner is attempting to start 2 RB-flexes and eliminate a TE and add another RB. That roster would be “illegal” The website will give you a warning (A BIG YELLOW SIGN) if your lineup is “illegal” It’s up to you to correct your illegal roster by freeze. An “illegal roster” will get 0.00 points for the week and an automatic loss. Obviously, you will need to plan for BYE weeks however you see fit. IV Schedule / Opponents / Divisions The regular season will last 13 weeks. The top 8 owners will go on to the playoffs (see Section IX) for weeks #14, #15 and #16. Week #17 is scrapped. The 16 owners that do not make the playoffs and the owners that are eventually eliminated from the playoffs will be inactivated at the proper time. Teams will be divided into to two major conferences (AFC & NFC) and two divisions (6 teams each) within each conference (east/west/north/south). AFC teams will comprise the East & West Divisions and NFC teams will comprise the North & South Divisions. Each week you will be matched VS an opponent. The standings are formatted in head-to-head matchups. Obviously, the goal is to outscore your opponent to get a win. Total points Y-T-D will be kept for the purposes of tiebreakers. Since there are 4 divisions (east/west/north/south) of 6 teams each divided into two confererences (AFC/NFC), you can expect the following opponents over 13 games: 5 games VS teams in your own division (each team 1 time) 6 games VS teams in your conference – other division (each team 1 time) 2 games VS teams (at random) in the opposite conference The idea is to play teams in your division / conference to battle for the playoffs. V Scoring System Offensive Scoring (includes Kickers) Rushing TD 6.0 points Receiving TD 6.0 points Passing TD 4.0 points Punt Return TD* 6.0 points Kickoff Return TD * 6.0 points Rushing 2pt Conversion 2.0 points Receiving 2pt Conversion 2.0 points Passing 2pt Conversion 1.0 points Rushing Yards (1-150) .10 points each Rushing Yards (151+) .125 points each Receiving Yards (1-150) .10 points each Receiving Yards (150+) .125 points each Passing Yards (1-400) .04 points each Passing Yards (401+) .06 points each Interception -2.0 points Fumbles Lost -2.0 points Kickers 0-34 yards 3.0 points 35- 40 3.5 points 41- 45 4.0 points 46-50 4.5 points 51- 55 5.0 points 56+ 6.0 points Missed FG 0-34 -2.0 points Missed FG 35-40 -1.0 points Extra Point 1.0 point Missed Extra Point -1.0 point * Punt return TDs and Kickoff return TDs will be credit 6.0 points to the individual player (IE Tim Brown, OAK, WR). It is possible to gain an additional 6.0 points if you also own the Special Teams (OAK) that returns to kick/punt for a touchdown (see below). Defensive / Special Teams Scoring Sack 1.0 points Safety 2.0 points Interception 2.0 points Fumble Recovery 2.0 points Blocked FG 3.0 points Blocked Punt 3.0 points Defensive TD (any type) 6.0 points Special Teams TD (any type) 6.0 points Points Against Score 0 21.0 points 1-5 14.0 points 6-10 10.0 points 11-14 7.0 points 15 6.0 points 16 5.0 points 17 4.0 points 18 3.0 points 19 2.0 points 20 1.0 points 21- 24 0.0 points 25- 28 -1.0 points 29- 35 -3.0 points 36- 42 -5.0 points 43- 56 -7.0 points 57- 99 -10.0 points Note: It is possible for a Defense / Specials Teams to score negative points for the day. VI Waivers/ Free Agent Acquisitions At the conclusion of the draft, all undrafted players will become free agents in “waiver” status. They will remain in waiver status for approximately 36-48 hours. Waiver order will be established in reverse order of draft. [IE the owner with the 24th overall pick will have the #1 waiver priority and the owner with the first draft pick will have the last waiver priority.] An owner may make a waiver claim on any available player through the website’s add/drop feature. If more than 1 owner claims the same player, the player will go to the owner with the lowest waiver priority [IE 3 is better than 8]. The owner receiving the player via waiver claim will then be bumped to waiver claim #24 and the next player is processed. This process continues until all waiver claims are completed. At this point the remaining player pool all become free agents and it is strictly first come, first serve. Picking up a free agent does not affect your waiver priority. Each week all players not on teams are reassigned “waiver” status and the waiver order is reset from worst to first place. The process starts over each week. This process is designed to prevent a “first to the computer gets the player” race. All owners get a crack at players that are unsigned with poorer teams getting preferential treatment. For a complete description of the waiver / free agent process which was cut/paste from the website, please go to post #63 here: http://rotoguru1.com/cgi-bin/mb/footst/198.shtml?1028928616 VII Trades All trades must be submitted via the website’s offer trade feature to the commissioners for review. Once a trade is submitted for review, it cannot be withdrawn. If appropriate it will be approved and will go into effect immediately. If the trade is deemed to be too lopsided [IE Kurt Warner for Joe Benchwarmer] or if collusion between two owners is suspected, the commissioners will veto the trade. The parties involved may resubmit the trade with an explanation if they wish. The commissioner’s decision is final, subject to section XIV – arbitration. If the commissioner is involved in a trade, it shall be reviewed and approved / denied by one of the assistant commissioners. All trades must conform to the roster guidelines or they will be rejected. 3 for 2 or 2 for 1 or uneven trades are allowed as long as they do not violate roster guidelines. In the event of an uneven trade, the team getting the extra player(s) will be responsible to drop down to the proper roster limit. The team getting the less player(s) may fill his roster via free agency/waivers. The deadline for trades will be roster freeze of week #12. Draft day trades are allowed under the following scenario. Owners must work out their deal ahead of time and draft the players involved to their own current teams. After the draft they can then trade such players according to their original intentions; subject to normal commissioner approval. VIII DL Transactions You may place up to two (2) players on the league DL. The player must qualify for DL eligibility for one of the following reasons: 1) NFL has him on the P.U.P. list 2) NFL has him on Injured Reserve (out for the year) 3) NFL or NFL team has suspended the player 4) Then player is listed in the weekly “official NFL injury report as ‘doubtful’ or ‘out’ Note: ‘questionable’ or ‘probable’ DO NOT QUALIFY. The Official NFL Report is what will be used each week to determine eligibility. No exceptions. It normally comes out on Thursdays each week. A commissioner will post a link to it each week from our website. No players may be placed on the league DL for week #1. If you draft an injured player you will have to suffer with him for the first week (even if it’s a QB). Also, any waiver or free agent pickup you make throughout the season must remain on your roster for 1 week before going to the DL. Commissioners will be reverse illegal DLs without notice. Once a player is placed on DL, you may elect to pick up a replacement from the free agent / waiver wire. Once a player is eligible to come off the DL, you must activate him or cut him. If you fail to do you will get one (1) warning e-mail from a commissioner to rectify the situation within 48 hours. If you do not, the player will be released from your team. [Example: Franco Harris is listed as “doubtful” for week #4, so you place him on IR and get Rocky Blier in free agency. In week #5’s report, Franco is listed as “probable” so you must activate or cut Franco by roster freeze for his game. If you do not, your warning e-mail will be sent and the 48-hour count down will begin! ] Once a player is placed on DL, he must remain there and miss at least 1 game. You cannot place a player on league DL and activate him back in the same week, so be sure you really want to place your player on DL before you do so. This is to prevent “player hoarding” to keep an owner from parking players on DL just to hoard up free agents and release them out to the FA pool at the last minute and thus prevent his competitors from having a chance to acquire them. IX Playoffs & tie breakers There will be 8 teams that make the playoffs. Each division winner (4) will make the playoffs. The next 2 teams with the best records AFC (east/west divisions) & the next 2 teams with the best records NFC (north/south divisions) will also make the playoffs. It is possible for both wildcards to come from the same division (IE west). If there is a tie at any level, the first tie breaker will be total points accumulated during the year. The second tie breaker will be most total TDs scored during the year. If necessary the third tie breaker will be the single highest week point total. Playoff teams will be announced at the end of week #13, which is the end of the regular season. Playoff teams will be seeded accordingly (AFC): #1 seed = east/west division winner with best H2H record #2 seed = other division winner #3 seed = wildcard team with best H2H record #4 seed = other wildcard team Repeat process for NFC conference. Seeds #1/#4 and Seeds #2/#3 will play in week #14, with the winners advancing to meet for their respective conference championship in week #15. Each conference winner will advance to the SuperBowl to be held in week #16. X Keepers Approximately 1 month before next year’s draft, all owners will be invited to return for another year of play. Returning owners will have a deadline (date TBD- about 2 weeks before 2003 draft) to declare what players from their team they wish to “keep” Each owner may keep up to 9 players (D/ST is considered a player). An owner may keep less than 9 if he desires. All “un-kept” players will go into the draft for 2003. The only off-season transactions that will be allowed are trades. No free agents may be picked up after the end of the season. Trades of a player for a draft pick will also be allowed. XI Prizes A fine plaque or trophy (yet to be purchased) will be engraved and shipped to the SuperBowl winner courtesy of yours truly. The trophy will be yours to proudly display with your other cherished mementos for 1 year. [Do not blame me if your wife yells at you for replacing your wedding picture over the mantle]. It will be the winner’s responsibility to ship it back to me each year so that I can engrave the next winner and pass it on. I expect the last paragraph to be moot, as I am the probable winner. A separate cash prize pool will also be established. It is strictly voluntary. Only those who participate will be eligible for this prize. $15.00 entry must be paid by roster freeze on week #1 to be included. The exact method of prize distibution cannot be determined until we know how many participants are in (for example $15 pool or $225+ pool? ). We are focusing on payouts for top regular season finishes AND top playoff finishes. It will NOT be winner take all. Several owners will have a cahnce to “win something.” XII Owners 2003 As commissioner, I reserve to right NOT to extend an invitation to any owner to return for any reason. Primary reason for being excluded would be abusive behavior (beyond friendly trash talk), purposeful rules violations (repeatedly colluding on trades), inactivity (IE leaving injured players in as starters for weeks on end) or failure to pay your share of league fees. If an owner is NOT invited back next year. A new owner will be recruited to take over the vacated team in its exact state. The 2003 draft will be a “slow” draft to fill in roster vacancies. XIII Stats Source CBS Sportsline.com will be the official source for stats to settle any scoring discrepancies. My previous interaction with this site has been positive, but here are a couple of things to note. 1) The site has a “live” scoring feature. Don’t take this literally. This scoring is unofficial. 2) From time to time the NFL reviews a play and changes a stat. In my experience with CBS they pick up on the changes within a day or two and make the correction automatically. If you find a scoring error, you must report it to me before the next week’s roster freeze to investigate. I have the ability to manually override scores if necessary. I will however not do it once the next week’s freeze date has passed. XIV Whining / Abuse / Unforeseen Circumstances / Arbitration There will be no whining. Simple. If you are unhappy with a rule or scenario, please follow the process described below under arbitration. Abusive owners will not be tolerated. The league has message boards, add news, and a “live” chat feature. Trash talking is certainly OK, if not encouraged, but vulgarities, threats, or abuse behavior will not be tolerated. Commissioners will delete abusive posts. Continued abusive behavior may result in your team being removed from the league permanently. Unforeseen circumstances do occur. Certainly, the sad events of September 11, 2001 taught us you couldn’t prepare for every possible scenario. Should unforeseen scenarios arise, the commissioners will use their best judgment to settle any matters in the “best interest of the league” Hopefully, an arbitration process will not be needed, however, if an owner feels that a decision (IE a vetoed trade) by one of the commissioners is unfair, he may appeal to the other 2 commissioners with his reasoning. If the other 2 commissioners decide so, they can overrule the previous decision (thus 2 of 3 decided the outcome). If the owner still is unhappy, he may call for a league vote to overturn the commissioners. A general e-mail will be sent with both sides stating their position and 14 votes must be returned in favor of overrule the change the decision (note: the party involved and the 3 commissioners will not be voting). This is the final outcome. There is no recourse. Voting will remain open for 48 hours only after the e-mail is sent. 6 TaRhEElKiD       ID: 42109719       Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 16:31 Is it possible to add points for kickoff returns or punt return yards? THK 7 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 127171211       Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 16:39 THK- I debated that idea and decided against it as it is not really a reflection of a good/bad team. It's just a "filler stat" for junkies like us. For example, the teams that get the most KO ret yards usually do so because they give up the most scores. So, it would be like rewarding a team with fantasy points (KO yards) after you penalized them by taking away fantasy points (for giving up the score). There are dozens of types of stats I left out, mostly because I wanted a good basic game. The more bells and whistles, the more chance for anomolys. rfs ® 8 Ref       ID: 121135289       Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 23:40 Re: Finances Here are the teams that I haven't heard from as far as yeah or nay for prize money (extra $15): Kansas City Chiefs Baltimore Ravens Buffalo Bills Oakland Raiders Cleveland Browns Denver Broncos San Francisco 49ers Seattle Seahawks Everyone else has responded and said yes they are in. So that is 16 in. That was my goal. TO be honest we really don't care if there is prize money or not--we were just concerned with organizing this unique game. RFS has done a wonderful job and it will be a fun league. I'll formulate how we're going to payout and pass it by rfs and cc before presenting it. Those 8 people left give me a yea or a nay. There are a couple of people apparently that we still haven't heard from on anything yet. Remember we need everyone playing to respond that hasn't yet so we know they are still committed. 9 Perm Dude       Leader       ID: 197391519       Sat, Aug 17, 2002, 00:36 Yeah, I'm in. Are all players eligible for all points? For example, a kicker on a fake kick passes to his QB holder for a TD. +4 for the kicker and +6 for the QB? Another case: Defense intercepts a pass, and the guy fumbles the ball to (ironically) the QB. Both the QB and the defense get a net 0? pd 10 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Sat, Aug 17, 2002, 00:44 For example, a kicker on a fake kick passes to his QB holder for a TD. +4 for the kicker and +6 for the QB? Yes the kicker would get credit for a TD pass and the holder would get credit for a TD reception. As a side note, this is NOT considered a ST team's TD, even though the "special teams" is on the field. This is the way CBS scores it. It came up once 2 years ago in a league I ran. CBS considers it an "offensive play" Defense intercepts a pass, and the guy fumbles the ball to (ironically) the QB. Both the QB and the defense get a net 0? No. Here is now CBS will score that play: QB -2 for INT, D +2 for INT, D is not penalized for fumbling back and QB is not credited with recovering. Just a playes is not credited for recovering a teammates fumble (IE RB fumbles and his TE falsl on it). As a side note, if your ST teams fumbles away a KO, you are penalized a -2 for fumble lost. Again, I know this from past experience with CBS should these rare events arise. rfs ® 11 StLCards       Sustainer       ID: 23730222       Sat, Aug 17, 2002, 01:08 RFS - I tried to send $$ via paypal but it told me that the email address you posted in the message to me was not yet registered. I wanted to verify with you whether or not that was correct? Anyway I'm in for the prize though it will most likely be a donation drafting so far down. Which one of you is the lawyer? I would call that a rule book, not just rules!! 12 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Sat, Aug 17, 2002, 01:38 StLCards: correct e-mail addy: rockafellerskank007@yahoo.com Thanks for the heads up. I just realized I typo'd my own e-mail addy in that e-mail! rfs 13 StLCards       Sustainer       ID: 23730222       Sat, Aug 17, 2002, 01:50 much better RFS. payment sent. 14 Ref       ID: 121135289       Sat, Aug 17, 2002, 13:07 18 of 24 are in for the prize money now as well. The 6 remaining haven't had a chance to get back to us at all. Some very good questions on the rules. 15 Promize       Sustainer       ID: 124153113       Sat, Aug 17, 2002, 16:03 Extra prize money is fine... I'll pay soon... Waiting for financial aid to be transfered over to my bank account from school... :-) 16 Ref       ID: 28045169       Mon, Aug 19, 2002, 18:01 butt 17 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Mon, Aug 19, 2002, 19:25 Goatlocker payment recieved $21 coldwater coyotes ditto $21 StL Cards - ditto $21 Perm Dude- ditto $6 Based on who told me what earlier in the week, we may have as much as $285.00 for the prize pool. rfs ® 18 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Mon, Aug 19, 2002, 23:51 StLCards posted this message inthe old thread, to which I am replying best as I can at this point..... Draft Help Topics: Help on Draft You can use this page to set and configure the draft order and several options for your on-line draft. By default, your league is set up for a Live draft. You can set up an Automated Draft by clicking the appropriate link. When you revise the draft settings for a Live draft, you'll enter the date and time the draft should start, the number of rounds the draft should last, and a time limit per pick. You can also have an email sent to the owner who has the next pick. This is a great option if your draft has no time limit per pick and takes place over a few days or even a week or more. When you revise the draft settings for an Automated Draft, you'll simply enter the draft date, time and total number of rounds. Some leagues run "mock" or practice drafts before their actual draft, to help everyone get used to the draft room and all its features. If your league does this, make sure to click the Reset the Draft link on this page after your practice draft is over. Otherwise your practice draft results will remain in the system and prevent the actual draft from running properly. For a detailed explanation of the on-line Draft rooms, please visit the Draft Room link on the League Home page and review the on-line help. The draft room is identical for a regular owner and the commissioner except for a few features. The commissioner can: Suspend Timer: If your draft is using a timer, the commissioner can suspend it. Note that picks can still be entered with the timer suspended. If you are running a draft over the course of a few days, you probably don't need a timer. Resume Timer: Select this to resume a suspended timer. This is only used if your draft settings have a time limit per pick set. Suspend Draft: Use this to prevent picks from being entered by other owners. Resume Draft: Use this to resume a suspended draft. Back-out Last Pick: If an incorrect pick was made by an owner or yourself, the commissioner can undo it. The commissioner also has the ability to make a pick for any player. If other owners submit a pick when it isn't their turn, they will receive a warning. This won't happen for the commissioner so be careful. Any pick you submit at any time will be accepted for whoever's turn it is. If you make a pick by accident you can back it out. The commissioner also has the ability to make an unlisted pick. Owner's don't have this ability so if they want to pick a player not currently in the player list they have to relay the information to you. It will be necessary for you after the draft to replace the "unlisted pick" with the real player. 19 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Mon, Aug 19, 2002, 23:57 Based on the clause in italics, I propose we do a "mock" draft to get used to the site and its features. Of course, you probbaly shouldn't pick who you REALLY want. This is for demonstation purposes only. When is a good time for most of you? How about Thursday night (8/22) at 9P EST? rfs ® 20 Blueballs       ID: 45614114       Tue, Aug 20, 2002, 09:52 I'd rather have it during the day, as I'm planning on coming in to work on saturday and steal off the T1 line. (I don't want to tie up the house phone line for the entire day.) I'd like to make sure that the draft ports aren't blocked off by any firewall first. 21 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 127171211       Tue, Aug 20, 2002, 10:10 After a little more thought lats night...... I'm thinking about setting up 3 or 4 "mock" drafts at various times. It's not much hassle and everyone could pick a time good for them. Obviously, there is no way we will get all 24 guys online at the same time before 8/31, but the purpose is to familiarize everyone wuth the draft controls. I'll just reset the rosters each time. I'll let the draft run to conclusion each time too. Thoughts? Best times? rfs ® 22 Blueballs       ID: 45614114       Tue, Aug 20, 2002, 11:06 I'm up for today. Either right now, or after lunch. 23 Ref       ID: 28045169       Tue, Aug 20, 2002, 11:36 So far there is one No on prize money and 4 that haven't responded: KC, Balt. Buffalo and Oakland. Please give us an answer one way or the other. 19 are in for the prize pool. 24 APerfect10       Leader       ID: 18712521       Tue, Aug 20, 2002, 11:44 I'm in on the money :) Sorry, I havent been able to respond much. I just got back from vacation and being commish of a keeper league with a slow draft takes a lot of time. Hopefully that should be complete by weeks end so I can concentrate on this league. 25 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 127171211       Tue, Aug 20, 2002, 12:57 ..... after further review...... A mock draft is not a good idea. Here is the problem, if we run a mock draft today, many owner have pre-ranked their entire draft already. Running a mock draft will disclose their strategy and put them at disadvantage. I logged into the "enter draft room" link. It's pretty simple. It works pretty much like yahoo! drafts. What I am saying is that the possible disclosure of pre-rankings outweighs the need for familiarity with the site as far as I am concerned. rfs ® 26 Ref       ID: 28045169       Tue, Aug 20, 2002, 13:03 Thanks A10, we never questioned your committmant. That makes 20 people are in for the prize money. I might just go with these 20 as being eligible and formulate the payouts. I can always tweak it slightly if we would happen to add someone else. Has anyone seen Dan? I've not seen or heard anything from him since he signed up for this game. RFS...anything from Dan on your end? As far as prerankings, my personal strategy is to wait as late as I can to do it so I don't have to go back and redo anything. Since I've never pre-ranked before, I probably should go over it but have also been very busy. Maybe I'll look into that soon, but I think a mock-draft is a good idea. Maybe those that think that their stratgey will be divulged should skip the mock draft--doesn't matter to me. 27 Dan       ID: 5076184       Tue, Aug 20, 2002, 13:10 Hey guys, sorry about the lack of communication, but I'm out of town, and will be until the end of this week. But I'm down for the prize money as well. 28 Ref       ID: 28045169       Tue, Aug 20, 2002, 13:24 OK, still awaiting feedback from Doug and Taxman. I have a payout formulated but before I present it to the league I want the blessing of rfs and CC Rider. 29 APerfect10       Leader       ID: 21693013       Tue, Aug 20, 2002, 13:34 Doug will be out of town until the 28th (I think that is the date) and has no computer access. 30 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 127171211       Tue, Aug 20, 2002, 13:48 Ref: The problem with the "mock" draft is that those that skip it will have their pre-ranks "auto-divulged"! Is that a word? 31 Blueballs       ID: 45614114       Tue, Aug 20, 2002, 14:13 I didn't personally pre-rank yet, but I see your point rfs. I do recommend that everyone preranks, as the Sportsline rankings are really off (at least on what I think). Also rfs, since you can draft for other owners, would it be possible for me to give you a list (queue) to go buy drafting for me (if I'm not there), as the Sportsline queue is a really big hassle to get straightened out? 32 Ref       ID: 28045169       Tue, Aug 20, 2002, 14:55 Blueballs, I think you need to do the pre-ranking as if we do that for one we will undoubtedly be asked to that for others. Also, others will see how you're drafting on that day. Also, rfs, perhaps we can throw a few guys at the top that wouldn't normally be there for the draft--but either way, I see your point. With 24 teams, I did want to kind of see a mock, but hopefully it will all work out like it should. 33 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 127171211       Tue, Aug 20, 2002, 15:47 Ref, Not worried about some "fake" guys picked at top. I'm worried about the owner that has pre-ranked his real preferences and they will be revealed regardless of what we select for demo purposes. For example, let's say the Indy Colts pick #12. And Ref can't be at the mock draft (or is away and doesn't even know about it), but he has pre-ranked and has Brett Favre as his first selected pick. When the mock draft goes off and pick #12 rolls around, his REAL selection will be exposed for all the world to see. I just want to be fair to those that maight have already pre-ranked. rfs 34 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 127171211       Tue, Aug 20, 2002, 15:52 BB #31) Let me answer your question this way.... I don't want to open the flood gates for 1,2,3,4,5,10+ owners to send me lists with instructions as that will be overwhelming! However, if an owner is online and has to leave for a period of time and they e-mail me a short queue, I'l be glad to follow it. I just don't want to be responsible for messing up a draft by trying to execute 13 picks for 5 different owners. That would be no fun for me (or them). So, I'll assist, but on a limted & emergency basis only. Besides as Ref says, you will be revealing your picks to me and putting yourself at a disadvantage. I want to kick your Blue Butt without help. :0) ;) rfs ® 35 Blueballs       ID: 45614114       Tue, Aug 20, 2002, 17:25 rfs Sure, I plan on being at the draft anyway. (I guess I'll actually have to prerank Sportsline ...) (I don't know that you knowing my picks will help you much, as you are 20 or 40 picks away.) I can see this getting way too out of hand for you. 36 TaRhEElKiD       ID: 42109719       Tue, Aug 20, 2002, 18:18 rfs- I may have overlooked this somewhere else. But next year if I am invited back (I plan to be), is it another $6 mandatory, or do we get the site for free after the 1 time payment?...Thus just having to pay the #15 if you want instead of $21 OR $0 for those that don't want to bet. THK 37 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 127171211       Tue, Aug 20, 2002, 18:40 THK #36) The $6 is for reimbursing me for website costs -- no profit. We will always divide the cost among the owners. So if CBS is free next year, it will be free, If CBS charges $240 next year is will be $10. CBS gave returning owners a price reduction from $140 to $120 this year. I imagine they will discount regular customers again next year. Frankly, I like their site, but am not opposed to moving. Most reputable sites cost $100+. Yahoo! is free but can't do over 12 team leagues. Besides, you'll be able to apply this year's winnings to next year's entry fee, right? 38 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Tue, Aug 20, 2002, 19:25 taxman (KC) received $21 via pay pal Peter N (Dallas) $21 received via mail Thanks, rfs ® 39 Ref       ID: 121135289       Tue, Aug 20, 2002, 23:50 We have 22 in for the prize pool. One not in and we're waiting on Doug to return next week to let us know. Therefore, I am going with 22 entries. I will have the prize money for 22. I will then have the payouts if those 22 are in the money and what happens if one of the other 2 win a slot that would have won money. I will also try and have an unpublished scenario if Doug wanted in and if someone who said they were in do not follow through. 40 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Wed, Aug 21, 2002, 09:49 Promize (Seattle) $21 received via pay pal Thanks. rfs 41 Ref       ID: 28045169       Wed, Aug 21, 2002, 12:52 As far as prize money breakdown, here is the payouts thus far with 22 in. >Playoff winner: $100 >Playoff runner-up $50 >Playoff 3rd place $25 >Playoff 4th place $10 >Regular Season winner (Best Record) $25 >Playoff Team (8 teams) $15 ($120) Obviously this is subject to revision as I got word today that one that is in is unsure now and 1 (Doug) we are still awaiting. If someone makes the playoffs and is not in the prize running, his money will be reallocated amongst the remaining players. There are so many possibilities that I will now say that we will deal with that when/if it comes to it. I had some scenarios out there but are too lenghty to get into. I will be fair about it and if it directly affects me and there are complaints, I will remove myself and allow the other two commissioners to do decide. Then we go to the appeals process we've outlined in our consitution/rules if there is still seems to be a problem. I have in my mind what I'm trying to do and will add that back into the equation if it comes to that. There are some areas I'd like to have had a higher payout. But I wanted 1/3 of all that put in to at least get their money back. My goal is always to win back my entry fee and if I get more than that great, I can use that for another game. I've carried that philosophy to this payout. I didn't want this game to turn out to be a jackpot or win 300 bucks or some big amount like that. With such a thin league it will be very difficult to soar above, yet one team could hook a sleeper or two and run away with it. I wanted as many as possible to have fun. Because of that we will also have a consolation game so 2 more teams will make a little more. 42 Blueballs       ID: 45614114       Wed, Aug 21, 2002, 17:08 Clarification: The playoff winners get $15+x (depending on the finish) - correct? This is pretty self evident, but I just want to be sure. 43 Ref       ID: 28045169       Wed, Aug 21, 2002, 17:25 correct. 44 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Wed, Aug 21, 2002, 20:20 BlueBalls (Washington): $11 received as partial payment. Brad (Houston): $21 paid Craig (AZ): $21 paid CCRider (Bears) $21 paid Thanks. rfs 45 GoatLocker       Sustainer       ID: 25745220       Thu, Aug 22, 2002, 08:22 All looks good t me. I don't think we really need the Mock Draft. Commissioner really is straight forward. Cliff 46 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Thu, Aug 22, 2002, 08:57 Action Figures (ATL) received $21 via pay pal. thanks rfs 47 ksoze       Sustainer       ID: 50643419       Thu, Aug 22, 2002, 23:26 RFS, just sent payment. 48 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Thu, Aug 22, 2002, 23:29 ksoze (TB) received $21 via pay pal. Thanks, rfs 49 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Fri, Aug 23, 2002, 20:14 myboyjack (Cin) $21 received via us mail CP (Jax) $21 received via pay pal Thanks, rfs ® 50 Baldwin       ID: 4261155       Fri, Aug 23, 2002, 23:46 I just popped in for a sec while on vacation. Got no card on me to PayPal with ATM but I am good for it and definately still wildly interested so hold my place and forgive the missed payment deadline if you can RFS. 51 Baldwin       ID: 4261155       Fri, Aug 23, 2002, 23:47 This vacation is gonna just kill me in the research department...ack...and it's a keeper league. 52 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Fri, Aug 23, 2002, 23:51 Baldwin, I wouldn't think of giving away your spot. As you know, I get a special "enjoyment" out of looking in my rear view mirror. rfs ® 53 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Sun, Aug 25, 2002, 09:00 THK (Minn) $21 received via mail AP10 (Bal) $21 received via Pay Pal Thanks rfs 54 Doug       ID: 21922183       Sun, Aug 25, 2002, 11:41 I'm still not home, but just did a quick check online... I'm down with the prize pool... will send in my $21 by mid-week. 55 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Sun, Aug 25, 2002, 12:34 This e-mail came from Promize. In case you missed it, I think he makes some good points. Thanks for the "heads up" !!!!! ********************************************* Just wanted to say good luck this year to you all. Also wanted to mention, I'm running another league from the Golf Forum with CBS. Very similiar to this league with CBS. We had a mock draft, and I encourage you all to go and see if your JAVA draft room or your HTML draft room works best for you on your computer. We had a few problems in our 12 man league. Make sure the players load up, you should also see a countdown clock ticking away. Also try and type a message and send it... Just some helpful hints, with 24 teams, I'm sure there will be some problems... Better to fix them now, then come time of draft day. Thanks Goodluck Dirk (Promize) *********************************************** 56 APerfect10       Leader       ID: 39143521       Mon, Aug 26, 2002, 02:57 Yea...just realized the draft is during our first home game. :( 57 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Mon, Aug 26, 2002, 09:25 Once again, thanks to Promize for thsi e-mail. Here are a few tips to make sure you are problem-free for the draft. *********************************************** The name of the link, on how to get into the draft room changes...for some reason. Sometimes it's called Draft Room, sometimes it's called Draft Result. ================================================ We had some people who were logged in, could see everyone talking, but couldn't make any picks themselves. Solution was to sign out completely, close all Windows, close your webbrowser, then try signing back in. ================================================ I have a really good computer, and sometimes the JAVA room will stick, meaning I had to do same thing as above. CBS also, just like last year is pretty unstable server. ================================================ For people who can't make the draft, make sure they go to the draft room and set their autopilot to ON. For people who can make the draft, make sure they go to the draft room and set their autopilot to OFF ================================================= There is something called CRnk which is Computer Rank And something called ORnk which is User Rank Some people were confused on that. ============================================== I think that is it, other then WARNING people that showing up 5 minutes before the draft starts is a very bad idea. I suggest a good 1/2 hour to 45 minutes... Just to make sure you can chat, and the program is working. 58 Baldwin       ID: 4261155       Mon, Aug 26, 2002, 20:37 Hey RFS, you did realize this draft is scheduled for virtually the same exact time as the Political Board Yahoo League? Ouch 59 Baldwin       ID: 4261155       Mon, Aug 26, 2002, 20:42 RFS I guess there is 1:50 difference so I will just have to let the preranking handle the last half with a look-in every now and then. Not an ideal situation in a keeper league. 60 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Mon, Aug 26, 2002, 21:23 Yeah, I realized it. Really, I don't think it presents a problem. myboyjack, Blue Balls, CCRider, PD, me & you are all scheduled to do both drafts. One is on Yahoo, the other CBS. I'm just planning to open 2 windows. My PC will easily handle both applications. Yahoo will be fast -- 10 teams, CBS will take longer. But, with 24 teams on CBS, you will only pick once every 24-48 minutes if people take their time (60 seconds per pick). I plan on making sure my players are pre-ranked and I use the queue feature on both sites to help me sort players. Essentially, offensive players will end up being ranked the same (for me), so not so difficult for me to track. Political Gurus has individual D players, so I'll have to pay some attention there. CBS starts @ 1P EST Yahoo starts at 2:50 EST rfs ® 61 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Mon, Aug 26, 2002, 21:27 Ref (Indy) $21 received via US mail. Thanks, rfs 62 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Tue, Aug 27, 2002, 10:16 AZDbacker has had to opt out due to a too busy scheudle. While we are sorry to lose him, I have recruited skinneej to replace him. skinneej will take over AZD's Green Bay franchise! Welcome skinneej rfs ® 63 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 127171211       Tue, Aug 27, 2002, 12:00 .....some questions about CBS draft room have popped up. I have used plenty of live draft rooms before, but never CBS, so this is my understanding (Promize- feel free to correct me on anything I am wrong about)......... Best advice I can give you is go to the site under "draft prep" and log into the "draft room". You should already see a ticker counting down the hours (if you use java room), You also may want to see if the HTML room version works better for your PC. Each owner can set "auto pilot" on/off. They have to set their own status. If it's "off" the computer will take the full 60 secs to make the pick. If it's "on" the computer will pick immediately from their next player with no delay. You can see the available players by computer's rank or your own rank. As players are draft you will see them disappear so only available players will be on your screen. You can further sort the available players by position. As commissioners, Ref, CCRider or I can pick for another owner by selecting that owner and selecting his player (so be careful), but we can also "back out" the last pick if we err. You can also create your own mini-queue that overrides the rankings. For example in the 5th round, the next highest ranked player I have might be Player X (WR), but since I have plenty of WRs, I want to pass on all WRS, so I put various RBs, QBs, TEs in my "mini-queue" and the computer will use that as my priority list if I am away. Your mini-queue can be reset, altered or added to at will throughout the draft. 64 Doug       ID: 3411223       Wed, Aug 28, 2002, 13:44 If anyone is interested in trading for my first round pick (#14 overall), send me an email. Basically picks in rounds 2-6 are primarily what I'm looking for... I can bundle later rounds to keep the totals even (such as rounds 1 and 9 for rounds 2 and 3 etc.)... and I'm open to trading many picks, not just 2-for-2 deals, etc. 65 Doug       ID: 3411223       Wed, Aug 28, 2002, 13:51 P.S. You can also reach me at AOL IM "SiriusAdventures" 66 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Wed, Aug 28, 2002, 20:03 Dan $21 received via Pay pal. skinneej ditto thanks rfs ® 67 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Wed, Aug 28, 2002, 22:00 Doug (OAK) $21 received via Pay Pal. Thanks rfs 68 skinneej       Sustainer       ID: 327202620       Thu, Aug 29, 2002, 17:54 Hey guys. Looking forward to the season. This should be fun. 69 Promize       Sustainer       ID: 124153113       Thu, Aug 29, 2002, 19:47 Sounds about right... The only thing I'm worried about is 24 teams and how much lag there will be. There is the ability to suspend the draft... By the commish, and like you say, delete the last drafted person. 70 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Sat, Aug 31, 2002, 00:46 The draft will begin promptly at 1:00 PM EST on 8/31/02. I STRONGLY recommend that you pre-rank your players if you have not done so. The default rankings are are a bit stetchy in my opinon. If you have a technical problem logging in, the draft is going to begin without you. That is another reason to pre-rank (just in case). If you miss the draft, even for techical reasons, I can't do anythng about it. You will just get who you get! *** WARNING ***** Under the heading "DRAFT PREP" You should see the link "rank players" and "draft room" on your front page. If you do not, try hititng refresh and/or loggng out and back in. It seems that from time to time "draft room" is replaced with "draft results" Actually, if you click draft results, you will still get to the draft room! **** SUGGESTION ***** It's probably a good idea to re-boot your PC before you begin to clear up as much useable RAM as possible. Some PCs (browsers) have problems for extended periods of time in Java. It can be a drain on resources. There are 2 draft rooms. HTML & Java. I suggest you log in early and see which version works best with your browser/ PC. I have been using IE 6.x, I have no idea how Netscape works (good? / bad?). *** HINT ******* from the website ****************** Please select either the Java or HTML version of the draft room. In order to use the Java version you must have Netscape Communicator 4 or IE 4 and at least 32MB of RAM. NOTE: Some browsers have difficulties running Java applications over a long period of time. If you are unsure of your system configuration or experience difficulty with the Java version, please use the HTML version. Also, please be aware that there is a slight time delay between picks in the Java Draft Room. Please click Draft only once when it is your turn, and your pick will be submitted. *********************************************** ****HINT **** regarding ranking from the website **** Prior to participating in an Automated or Live Draft you should rank the available NFL players. In Automated Drafts, players are chosen directly from your Rank List(s). It is also strongly recommended that all Live Draft participants organize their Rank List, although it is not required. If you are unable to make a live pick for any reason, picks will automatically be chosen from your queue. However, if the queue is empty they will be selected from your Rank List. If you do not organize a list, our default list will be used. There are two ways to rank your players. Java technology allows information to be updated instantly within a web page, without having to download additional information from a web server. With the Java interface, you will be able to drag & drop players up and down in your rank list. Since Java doesn't work on some older web browsers, there is also an HTML interface, which will take a little longer to rank your players. Feel free to try the Java version first and if it doesn't work with your browser use the HTML version. While we strongly recommend ranking players, it is not necessary. If you choose not to, our default rankings - reflecting the opinions of Fantasy experts - will remain intact. If you've already started ranking players but would like to cancel your changes and go with our default rankings, click Reset Rankings. Your rankings will stay intact if you change leagues, as long as the player pool (AL-only, NL-only or mixed) and draft types (Automated or Live) are the same. Otherwise your rankings will be reset to the defaults ***************************************************** BOL to all. rfs 71 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Sat, Aug 31, 2002, 11:11 For anyone looking for me.... I will be drafting from my office (T1 line). I don't have AIM there (might download it), but likely if you need me..... I'll be in the CBS draft room - chat. or e-mail me @ rockafellerskank007@yahoo.com or post here. I'll try to answer Q's as best I can. rfs ® 72 Perm Dude       Leader       ID: 87192619       Sat, Aug 31, 2002, 12:56 Just sent you an email--I logged in, and no team! Only my Golf Forum football team is there! Do I need to put in a new team? If so, send me the details fast! pd 73 Perm Dude       Leader       ID: 87192619       Sat, Aug 31, 2002, 12:59 Crap. What the f*ck happened to that team??? I guess I'm out this year. pd 74 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 337443111       Sat, Aug 31, 2002, 13:23 PD- I sent you an e-mail, follow the link in the e-mail tothe site!!!!! 75 Perm Dude       Leader       ID: 87192619       Sat, Aug 31, 2002, 14:23 Got it, rfs, though too late to do anything for the team. What a frustrating day. pd 78 Doug       ID: 3411223       Sat, Aug 31, 2002, 15:56 Just posting my info here in case anyone wants to trade... my team is Oakland Raiders... I'd like to swap the team defense of the Cardinals with one of the other crappy defenses... just because of bye week, but it's no big thing. Other than that, I'm open to discussions... let me know what you are looking for! For email just click on my name, or IM me (which is easier for discussions I think) on AOL at: SiriusAdventures 79 Promize       Sustainer       ID: 124153113       Sat, Aug 31, 2002, 15:58 Ditto that trade stuff, I'm sort of weak on a second RB. 80 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 337443111       Sat, Aug 31, 2002, 16:02 PD- Sorry about the confusion. 81 APerfect10       Leader       ID: 407161410       Sat, Aug 31, 2002, 17:24 rfs, I appreciate your extreme hard work setting up this league and you have done a mighty fine job. Cbs.sportsline's draft room is a joke! I pre-ranked my players prior to the draft, because I knew I would be unable to attend. I come back and what do I see? - 3 TE drafted within the first 6 rounds? - 3 RB drafted within the first 4 rounds? - NO Kicker drafted... - A defense that I had ranked last - No backup QB's even though I had the QB position ranked MUCH MUCH higher than any other position, so I would've gotten a backup. I never like to sound pathetic, nor give up, but I see no possible way to turn this team around. Not even through trades. Who is going to trade for mediocre TE's that I drafted in the early rounds? $21 down the drain. Once again, my frustrations are in no way towards rfs or the rest of the league, rather they are directed towards Cbs.sportsline and their downright pathetic draft room and style. We paid how much money and they cant even manage an auto-draft? Hah...nevermore. 82 Ref       ID: 121135289       Sat, Aug 31, 2002, 17:56 The Draft has concluded. There were a few bugs here and there that bothered some of us but let's not let that take away from our league. RFS has done a wonderful job and he should get props for his hard work. While we'll still have some discussion here we will probably want to do most of our communications here--esp. now that season is starting. We have some MAJOR changes that RFS and I have had to make. In order for the site to work correctly you must have at least 1 player at each position due to technical roster contraints on CBS to comply with the spirit of the rules. Otherwise, CBS was allowing WR and RB etc. in place of K, TE, D, etc. RFS and myself went through every illegal roster and made them legal. You still need to edit your lineup. One lineup's IR move was put back on reserve as there are no IR's allowed until after the first week of season. If you've requested waivers, etc. they will be cancelled and that player will go back into pool. The teams that we couldn't make legal are the ones that do not have a player representing a position. Those are: Balt.-K; Minn,-TE; GB-DT; ATl.-TE; CLE.-TE; WASH.-K. These teams MUST obtain players at these positions to be legal. You may trade, pickup waivers or FA. They do not have to play to be legal. i.e. If you get Terrell Davis and that's your only RB, it doesn't matter that he doesn't play. GB needs a D and will have to trade for one. Any questions see RFS or myself.--Ref 83 Ref       ID: 121135289       Sat, Aug 31, 2002, 18:09 ok what that last post meant to say aobut our discussions (since it was originally written for the front page but the darned site isn't cooperating) is even though we will have some discussions here--we should have most of them on the league site since the season is starting. Btw, I have an extra DT and TE I'd like to move. Actually, I'dlike to keep the DT, but GB, I know you need one. 84 Ref       ID: 121135289       Sat, Aug 31, 2002, 18:24 Thanks to Promize for posting this in another thread: So our draft went like this: 1 Houston Texans Faulk, Marshall (RB STL) 2 Arizona Cardinals Alexander, Shaun (RB SEA) 3 Baltimore Ravens Green, Ahman (RB GB) 4 Pittsburgh Steelers Warner, Kurt (QB STL) 5 Chicago Bears James, Edgerrin (RB IND) 6 Green Bay Packers Martin, Curtis (RB NYJ) 7 Atlanta Falcons Tomlinson, LaDainian (RB SD) 8 Cincinnati Bengals Dillon, Corey (RB CIN) 9 Dallas Cowboys Moss, Randy (WR MIN) 10 Cleveland Browns Buccaneers (DT TB) 11 Jacksonville Jaguars Manning, Peyton (QB IND) 12 Indianapolis Colts Holmes, Priest (RB KC) 13 NY Giants Culpepper, Daunte (QB MIN) 14 Oakland Raiders Garcia, Jeff (QB SF) 15 St Louis Rams McNabb, Donovan (QB PHI) 16 Kansas City Chiefs Davis, Stephen (RB WAS) 17 Seattle Seahawks Williams, Ricky (RB MIA) 18 San Diego Chargers Owens, Terrell (WR SF) 19 Buffalo Bills Favre, Brett (QB GB) 20 San Francisco 49ers McAllister, Deuce (RB NO) 21 Minnesota Vikings Thomas, Anthony (RB CHI) 22 Denver Broncos Brooks, Aaron (QB NO) 23 Tampa Bay Bucs Vick, Michael (QB ATL) 24 Washington Redskins George, Eddie (RB TEN) 25 Washington Redskins Harrison, Marvin (WR IND) 26 Tampa Bay Bucs Smith, Rod (WR DEN) 27 Denver Broncos Bennett, Michael (RB MIN) 28 Minnesota Vikings Taylor, Fred (RB JAC) 29 San Francisco 49ers Plummer, Jake (QB ARI) 30 Buffalo Bills Boston, David (WR ARI) 31 San Diego Chargers Bettis, Jerome (RB PIT) 32 Seattle Seahawks Gannon, Rich (QB OAK) 33 Kansas City Chiefs McNair, Steve (QB TEN) 34 St Louis Rams Lewis, Jamal (RB BAL) 35 Oakland Raiders Johnson, Keyshawn (WR TB) 36 NY Giants Holt, Torry (WR STL) 37 Indianapolis Colts Barber, Tiki (RB NYG) 38 Jacksonville Jaguars Bruce, Isaac (WR STL) 39 Cleveland Browns Dunn, Warrick (RB ATL) 40 Dallas Cowboys Bledsoe, Drew (QB BUF) 41 Cincinnati Bengals Stewart, Kordell (QB PIT) 42 Atlanta Falcons Hearst, Garrison (RB SF) 43 Green Bay Packers Griese, Brian (QB DEN) 44 Chicago Bears Horn, Joe (WR NO) 45 Pittsburgh Steelers Staley, Duce (RB PHI) 46 Baltimore Ravens Smith, Antowain (RB NE) 47 Arizona Cardinals Moulds, Eric (WR BUF) 48 Houston Texans Brown, Tim (WR OAK) 49 Houston Texans Johnson, Kevin (WR CLE) 50 Arizona Cardinals Brees, Drew (QB SD) 51 Baltimore Ravens Garner, Charlie (RB OAK) 52 Pittsburgh Steelers Chambers, Chris (WR MIA) 53 Chicago Bears Green, Trent (QB KC) 54 Green Bay Packers Gonzalez, Tony (TE KC) 55 Atlanta Falcons Pittman, Michael (RB TB) 56 Cincinnati Bengals Glenn, Terry (WR GB) 57 Dallas Cowboys Smith, Jimmy (WR JAC) 58 Cleveland Browns Stewart, James (RB DET) 59 Jacksonville Jaguars Green, William (RB CLE) 60 Indianapolis Colts Burress, Plaxico (WR PIT) 61 NY Giants Henry, Travis (RB BUF) 62 Oakland Raiders Jones, Thomas (RB ARI) 63 St Louis Rams Portis, Clinton (RB DEN) 64 Kansas City Chiefs Gary, Olandis (RB DEN) 65 Seattle Seahawks McCaffrey, Ed (WR DEN) 66 San Diego Chargers Collins, Kerry (QB NYG) 67 Buffalo Bills Smith, Emmitt (RB DAL) 68 San Francisco 49ers Shockey, Jeremy (TE NYG) 69 Minnesota Vikings Coles, Laveranues (WR NYJ) 70 Denver Broncos Brown, Troy (WR NE) 71 Tampa Bay Bucs Thrash, James (WR PHI) 72 Washington Redskins Mason, Derrick (WR TEN) 73 Washington Redskins Couch, Tim (QB CLE) 74 Tampa Bay Bucs Smith, Lamar (RB CAR) 75 Denver Broncos Jackson, Darrell (WR SEA) 76 Minnesota Vikings Foster, DeShaun (RB CAR) 77 San Francisco 49ers Galloway, Joey (WR DAL) 78 Buffalo Bills Rice, Jerry (WR OAK) 79 San Diego Chargers Allen, James (RB HOU) 80 Seattle Seahawks Pollard, Marcus (TE IND) 81 Kansas City Chiefs Hambrick, Troy (RB DAL) 82 St Louis Rams Morton, Johnnie (WR KC) 83 Oakland Raiders Ismail, Qadry (WR IND) 84 NY Giants Alstott, Mike (RB TB) 85 Indianapolis Colts Toomer, Amani (WR NYG) 86 Jacksonville Jaguars Price, Peerless (WR BUF) 87 Cleveland Browns Wheatley, Tyrone (RB OAK) 88 Dallas Cowboys Booker, Marty (WR CHI) 89 Cincinnati Bengals Gardner, Rod (WR WAS) 90 Atlanta Falcons Titans (DT TEN) 91 Green Bay Packers Duckett, T.J. (RB ATL) 92 Chicago Bears Steelers (DT PIT) 93 Pittsburgh Steelers Dolphins (DT MIA) 94 Baltimore Ravens Sharpe, Shannon (TE DEN) 95 Arizona Cardinals Freeman, Antonio (WR PHI) 96 Houston Texans Brady, Tom (QB NE) 97 Houston Texans Rams (DT STL) 98 Arizona Cardinals Barlow, Kevan (RB SF) 99 Baltimore Ravens Brunell, Mark (QB JAC) 100 Pittsburgh Steelers Muhammad, Muhsin (WR CAR) 101 Chicago Bears McCardell, Keenan (WR TB) 102 Green Bay Packers Robinson, Marcus (WR CHI) 103 Atlanta Falcons Jackson, Willie (WR ATL) 104 Cincinnati Bengals Wells, Jonathan (RB HOU) 105 Dallas Cowboys Vanderjagt, Mike (K IND) 106 Cleveland Browns Schroeder, Bill (WR DET) 107 Jacksonville Jaguars Warrick, Peter (WR CIN) 108 Indianapolis Colts Bears (DT CHI) 109 NY Giants Dyson, Kevin (WR TEN) 110 Oakland Raiders Eagles (DT PHI) 111 St Louis Rams Anderson, Mike (RB DEN) 112 Kansas City Chiefs Green, Jacquez (WR WAS) 113 Seattle Seahawks Ward, Hines (WR PIT) 114 San Diego Chargers Cowboys (DT DAL) 115 Buffalo Bills Packers (DT GB) 116 San Francisco 49ers Redskins (DT WAS) 117 Minnesota Vikings Carr, David (QB HOU) 118 Denver Broncos Patriots (DT NE) 119 Tampa Bay Bucs Raiders (DT OAK) 120 Washington Redskins Saints (DT NO) 121 Washington Redskins Alexander, Derrick (WR MIN) 122 Tampa Bay Bucs Jones, Freddie (TE ARI) 123 Denver Broncos Wilkins, Jeff (K STL) 124 Minnesota Vikings Chargers (DT SD) 125 San Francisco 49ers Mare, Olindo (K MIA) 126 Buffalo Bills Franks, Bubba (TE GB) 127 San Diego Chargers Walls, Wesley (TE CAR) 128 Seattle Seahawks Jets (DT NYJ) 129 Kansas City Chiefs Browns (DT CLE) 130 St Louis Rams Conway, Curtis (WR SD) 131 Oakland Raiders Sloan, David (TE NO) 132 NY Giants Chamberlain, Byron (TE MIN) 133 Indianapolis Colts Fiedler, Jay (QB MIA) 134 Jacksonville Jaguars 49ers (DT SF) 135 Cleveland Browns Finneran, Brian (WR ATL) 136 Dallas Cowboys Mack, Stacey (RB JAC) 137 Cincinnati Bengals Ravens (DT BAL) 138 Atlanta Falcons Gramatica, Martin (K TB) 139 Green Bay Packers Chrebet, Wayne (WR NYJ) 140 Chicago Bears Robinson, Koren (WR SEA) 141 Pittsburgh Steelers Bradford, Corey (WR HOU) 142 Baltimore Ravens Heap, Todd (TE BAL) 143 Arizona Cardinals Stallworth, Donte' (WR NO) 144 Houston Texans Longwell, Ryan (K GB) 145 Houston Texans Hakim, Az-Zahir (WR DET) 146 Arizona Cardinals Giants (DT NYG) 147 Baltimore Ravens Wycheck, Frank (TE TEN) 148 Pittsburgh Steelers Lewis, Chad (TE PHI) 149 Chicago Bears Watters, Ricky (RB SEA) 150 Green Bay Packers Pathon, Jerome (WR NO) 151 Atlanta Falcons Westbrook, Michael (WR CIN) 152 Cincinnati Bengals Richardson, Tony (RB KC) 153 Dallas Cowboys Levens, Dorsey (RB PHI) 154 Cleveland Browns Elam, Jason (K DEN) 155 Jacksonville Jaguars McMahon, Mike (QB DET) 156 Indianapolis Colts Hilliard, Ike (WR NYG) 157 NY Giants Broncos (DT DEN) 158 Oakland Raiders Zereoue, Amos (RB PIT) 159 St Louis Rams White, Dez (WR CHI) 160 Kansas City Chiefs Carter, Quincy (QB DAL) 161 Seattle Seahawks Akers, David (K PHI) 162 San Diego Chargers Dayne, Ron (RB NYG) 163 Buffalo Bills Bryant, Antonio (WR DAL) 164 San Francisco 49ers Jenkins, MarTay (WR ARI) 165 Minnesota Vikings Terrell, David (WR CHI) 166 Denver Broncos Edwards, Robert (RB MIA) 167 Tampa Bay Bucs Canidate, Trung (RB STL) 168 Washington Redskins Johnson, Eric (TE SF) 169 Washington Redskins White, Jamel (RB CLE) 170 Tampa Bay Bucs Gadsden, Oronde (WR MIA) 171 Denver Broncos Holcombe, Robert (RB TEN) 172 Minnesota Vikings Weinke, Chris (QB CAR) 173 San Francisco 49ers Dilfer, Trent (QB SEA) 174 Buffalo Bills Janikowski, Sebastian (K OAK) 175 San Diego Chargers Conway, Brett (K WAS) 176 Seattle Seahawks Testaverde, Vinny (QB NYJ) 177 Kansas City Chiefs Scott, Darnay (WR JAC) 178 St Louis Rams Driver, Donald (WR GB) 179 Oakland Raiders Carney, John (K NO) 180 NY Giants Taylor, Travis (WR BAL) 181 Indianapolis Colts Chandler, Jeff (K SF) 182 Jacksonville Jaguars Riemersma, Jay (TE BUF) 183 Cleveland Browns Proehl, Ricky (WR STL) 184 Dallas Cowboys Johnson, Brad (QB TB) 185 Cincinnati Bengals Moss, Santana (WR NYJ) 186 Atlanta Falcons Graham, Jeff (WR ATL) 187 Green Bay Packers El, Antwaan Randle (WR PIT) 188 Chicago Bears Becht, Anthony (TE NYJ) 189 Pittsburgh Steelers Miller, Jim (QB CHI) 190 Baltimore Ravens Pinkston, Todd (WR PHI) 191 Arizona Cardinals Hasselbeck, Matt (QB SEA) 192 Houston Texans Allen, Terry (RB NO) 193 Houston Texans Frerotte, Gus (QB CIN) 194 Arizona Cardinals Conwell, Ernie (TE STL) 195 Baltimore Ravens Matthews, Shane (QB WAS) 196 Pittsburgh Steelers Vinatieri, Adam (K NE) 197 Chicago Bears Brady, Kyle (TE JAC) 198 Green Bay Packers Gaffney, Jabar (WR HOU) 199 Atlanta Falcons Chiefs (DT KC) 200 Cincinnati Bengals Crumpler, Alge (TE ATL) 201 Dallas Cowboys McMichael, Randy (TE MIA) 202 Cleveland Browns Jaguars (DT JAC) 203 Jacksonville Jaguars Edinger, Paul (K CHI) 204 Indianapolis Colts Panthers (DT CAR) 205 NY Giants Falcons (DT ATL) 206 Oakland Raiders Centers, Larry (RB BUF) 207 St Louis Rams Sanders, Frank (WR ARI) 208 Kansas City Chiefs Alexander, Stephen (TE SD) 209 Seattle Seahawks Stokes, J.J. (WR SF) 210 San Diego Chargers Hayes, Donald (WR NE) 211 Buffalo Bills Jordan, LaMont (RB NYJ) 212 San Francisco 49ers Edwards, Troy (WR PIT) 213 Minnesota Vikings Bengals (DT CIN) 214 Denver Broncos Bryson, Shawn (RB BUF) 215 Tampa Bay Bucs Peterson, Todd (K PIT) 216 Washington Redskins Harrington, Joey (QB DET) 217 Washington Redskins Ferguson, Robert (WR GB) 218 Tampa Bay Bucs Lelie, Ashley (WR DEN) 219 Denver Broncos Jefferson, Shawn (WR ATL) 220 Minnesota Vikings Nedney, Joe (K TEN) 221 San Francisco 49ers Smith, Steve (WR CAR) 222 Buffalo Bills Colts (DT IND) 223 San Diego Chargers Bates, D'Wayne (WR MIN) 224 Seattle Seahawks Jackson, James (RB CLE) 225 Kansas City Chiefs Dwight, Tim (WR SD) 226 St Louis Rams Johnson, Rob (QB TB) 227 Oakland Raiders Crowell, Germane (WR DET) 228 NY Giants Redman, Chris (QB BAL) 229 Indianapolis Colts Clark, Desmond (TE DEN) 230 Jacksonville Jaguars Mathis, Terance (WR PIT) 231 Cleveland Browns Lions (DT DET) 232 Dallas Cowboys Seahawks (DT SEA) 233 Cincinnati Bengals Feely, Jay (K ATL) 234 Atlanta Falcons Stover, Matt (K BAL) 235 Green Bay Packers Hanson, Jason (K DET) 236 Chicago Bears Brien, Doug (K MIN) 237 Pittsburgh Steelers Lewis, Jermaine (WR HOU) 238 Baltimore Ravens Anderson, Richie (RB NYJ) 239 Arizona Cardinals Morgan, Quincy (WR CLE) 240 Houston Texans Anderson, Jamal (RB ATL) 241 Houston Texans Bruener, Mark (TE PIT) 242 Arizona Cardinals Taylor, Chester (RB BAL) 243 Baltimore Ravens Texans (DT HOU) 244 Pittsburgh Steelers Bulger, Marc (QB STL) 245 Chicago Bears Fuamatu-Ma'afala, Chris (RB PIT) 246 Green Bay Packers Hollis, Mike (K BUF) 247 Atlanta Falcons Seder, Tim (K DAL) 248 Cincinnati Bengals Stokley, Brandon (WR BAL) 249 Dallas Cowboys Wayne, Reggie (WR IND) 250 Cleveland Browns Hall, John (K NYJ) 251 Jacksonville Jaguars Huntley, Richard (RB BUF) 252 Indianapolis Colts Ricks, Mikhael (TE DET) 253 NY Giants Dawson, Phil (K CLE) 254 Oakland Raiders Cardinals (DT ARI) 255 St Louis Rams Bills (DT BUF) 256 Kansas City Chiefs Wilkins, Terrence (WR STL) 257 Seattle Seahawks Vikings (DT MIN) 258 San Diego Chargers Byrd, Isaac (WR CAR) 259 Buffalo Bills Andersen, Morten (K KC) 260 San Francisco 49ers Gordon, Lamar (RB STL) 261 Minnesota Vikings Branch, Deion (WR NE) 262 Denver Broncos Dilger, Ken (TE TB) 263 Tampa Bay Bucs Christie, Steve (K SD) 264 Washington Redskins Rhodes, Dominic (RB IND) 265 Washington Redskins Ismail, Raghib (WR DAL) 266 Tampa Bay Bucs Chandler, Chris (QB CHI) 267 Denver Broncos Shaw, Bobby (WR JAC) 268 Minnesota Vikings Holmes, Jaret (K CAR) 269 San Francisco 49ers Crockett, Zack (RB OAK) 270 Buffalo Bills Fletcher, Terrell (RB SD) 271 San Diego Chargers Stevens, Jerramy (TE SEA) 272 Seattle Seahawks Kitna, Jon (QB CIN) 273 Kansas City Chiefs Rambo, Ken-Yon (WR DAL) 274 St Louis Rams Cortez, Jose (K SF) 275 Oakland Raiders Graham, Daniel (TE NE) 276 NY Giants Williams, Roland (TE OAK) 277 Indianapolis Colts Minor, Travis (RB MIA) 278 Jacksonville Jaguars Christian, Bob (RB ATL) 279 Cleveland Browns Epstein, Hayden (K JAC) 280 Dallas Cowboys Patten, David (WR NE) 281 Cincinnati Bengals Wuerffel, Danny (QB WAS) 282 Atlanta Falcons Flutie, Doug (QB SD) 283 Green Bay Packers Blake, Jeff (QB BAL) 284 Chicago Bears Pennington, Chad (QB NYJ) 285 Pittsburgh Steelers Shipp, Marcel (RB ARI) 286 Baltimore Ravens Dawkins, Sean (WR MIN) 287 Arizona Cardinals Brown, Kris (K HOU) 288 Houston Texans Dudley, Rickey (TE CLE) 289 Houston Texans Mitchell, Freddie (WR PHI) 290 Arizona Cardinals Martin, Jamie (QB STL) 291 Baltimore Ravens McKnight, James (WR MIA) 292 Pittsburgh Steelers Stith, Shyrone (RB IND) 293 Chicago Bears Hicks, Skip (RB TEN) 294 Green Bay Packers Faulk, Kevin (RB NE) 295 Atlanta Falcons Kirby, Terry (RB OAK) 296 Cincinnati Bengals Minnis, Snoop (WR KC) 297 Dallas Cowboys Redmond, J.R. (RB NE) 298 Cleveland Browns Beuerlein, Steve (QB DEN) 299 Jacksonville Jaguars Streets, Tai (WR SF) 300 Indianapolis Colts Jeffers, Patrick (WR CAR) 301 NY Giants Lindell, Rian (K SEA) 302 Oakland Raiders Gramatica, Bill (K ARI) 303 St Louis Rams Brewer, Sean (TE CIN) 304 Kansas City Chiefs Kasay, John (K CAR) 305 Seattle Seahawks Jurevicius, Joe (WR TB) 306 San Diego Chargers Kennison, Eddie (WR KC) 307 Buffalo Bills Carswell, Dwayne (TE DEN) 308 San Francisco 49ers Goings, Nick (RB CAR) 309 Minnesota Vikings Pochman, Owen (K NYG) 310 Denver Broncos Moore, Dave (TE BUF) 311 Tampa Bay Bucs Schlesinger, Cory (RB DET) 312 Washington Redskins Williams, Boo (TE NO) 85 Doug       ID: 3411223       Sat, Aug 31, 2002, 18:26 lol... he deleted it from this thread so it wouldn't take up all that space... maybe you could self-edit that out and post a link instead? 86 StLCards       Sustainer       ID: 23730222       Sun, Sep 01, 2002, 01:24 This might of already been answered but I don't see it off hand. Am I correct in assuming that punt return and kickoff returns count as rushing yds? I would also be in favor of examining closely this year the combination of D/ST. I would prefer D only. Combining the 2 makes little sense to me as a great D can be penalized by a bad special teams unit. I would rather have special teams be left up to starting a punt or kickoff returner etc. for teams that might not have a better option at RB or WR for their flex player. Something to consider for next year. 87 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Sun, Sep 01, 2002, 01:56 KO and PR yards DO NOT count. Only TDs count. 88 StLCards       Sustainer       ID: 23730222       Sun, Sep 01, 2002, 02:01 I think that is a bad rule. A 99yd kickoff return stopped at the 1yd line counts for nothing? 89 StLCards       Sustainer       ID: 23730222       Sun, Sep 01, 2002, 02:08 p.s. I'm not flaming or anything, I just think that with so many teams and talent stretched so thin, especially for bench players, that having return yd stats would give more options to people. 90 TaRhEElKiD @ Friends       ID: 64522223       Sun, Sep 01, 2002, 02:41 I think it is a bad rule...RFS argment is as follows: You are rewarding a bad team to give up and score and let those players get points. BUT I see it as that the individual players (i.e. Deion Branch) didn't give up the TD OR What about PR? That means you are rewarding the player for having his team stop the opposing team. I believe it should be added, but either way.. THK 91 Doug       ID: 3411223       Sun, Sep 01, 2002, 03:20 The problem is we've already done the draft, and certain players (such as Derrick Mason, etc.) would have been drafted earlier if we were including return yardage. Secondly, you aren't being "penalized" for a bad ST... there are no points gained or lost for ST yardage... only TDs and blocked punt/kicks, and those are unpredictable, infrequent, and only a small fraction of the points scored by a D/ST... the main factors in the D/ST score are points allowed, sacks, ints, and fumble recoveries... i.e., defensive stats. 92 StLCards       Sustainer       ID: 23730222       Sun, Sep 01, 2002, 03:40 Doug, looking at it closer, it seems that the only true "ST" pts are for TD's as I would consider a block punt or block FG as a D stat. Combining an offensive type stat (TD on an offensive possesion) with D seems inconsistent. Almost makes more sense to combine ST/K since a K truly is a ST player. Really the ST is largely ignored in the scoring. A lot of players could become worth playing in this league if PR and KR yds and scores counted for a player. Right now only a score on the play would count, which is rare. A 3d or 4th WR or backup RB that only got a little playing time could still be worth starting if they could get pts from their KR or PR's. If you look at the free agent pool of WR's there really is no one to even choose, yet many teams are still thin at the flex position. The draft is over, but since it is a keeper league I think it is worth exploring at least for future years. 93 Doug       ID: 3411223       Sun, Sep 01, 2002, 03:58 StL... just curious: "Combining an offensive type stat (TD on an offensive possesion) with D seems inconsistent." I agree with this statement in principle, but I don't see how it applies to our scoring system. Like you said, ST return TDs are the only thing being added to the D... but nothing from an offensive posession that I can see. Am I missing something? Also, some teams are thin at flex #2 (like me!), but those teams "should" be better off at other positions in return if they drafted well... for example, I could have picked up Jacquez Green for my #2 flex, but instead I took the Eagles defense because I felt there were more points to be made there, and so I had to settle for Larry Centers as my #2 flex. So it goes... that's part of the strategy in a league like this. 94 StLCards       Sustainer       ID: 23730222       Sun, Sep 01, 2002, 04:18 To clarify - I would consider the receiving team (ST) to be on "offense" when they caught the ball, is the only reason I say that. I agree with your second point too. The option was there at draft time. I personally had a fairly poor, but I tried for some youth so maybe I can be better in future years. 95 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Sun, Sep 01, 2002, 10:41 StLCards: No "flame" taken !! But,I will answer your post and questionsn as straight forward as I can..... THK is correct in referencing part of my reasoning as to why not to include PR and KR yards, but I will expound. 2 years ago, Martay Jenkings broke the NFL record for KR return yardage. He did this becuase the AZ Cardinals were sooo bad they were getting kicked off to about a zillion times per game. Now, I know some of you now know who Martay Jenkins is because he threatened for a starting job this year, but in 2000 he barely made the team. If you owned Martay in 2000, he would have been ranked ahead of most all #3 WRS and about 25% of all #2 WRS in the NFL and I think (from memory) he caught passes in only 1 game! First, I didn't want this year's "Martay Jenkins" (Maybe Steve Smith???) to be more valuable than say, Peerless Price" Althought a 99 yard KO counts for nothing, so do eleven 9 yard KO's ! Secondly, bad rule or good rule has become irrelvant. Doug is correct, the draft is done and certain players would have been regarded differently under different circumstances. What I have said many times, to others is "the rules were first posted for discussion about 3 weeks ago". No one brought up PR or KR yards (except THK and he got a reply). Everybody had a chance to put in $0.02 BEFORE they were finalized. You can ask Ref how any differentideas we discussed. Although no PR and KR yards was my idea, I certainly would have added it if there was an outcry to do so. Third, you can point to KR yards as a good stat to have if you want, but there are others that point to various other stas as "must haves" Bottom line is that we could have a stat for everything. Some were included, some were excluded. To some extent, I wanted a basic fantasy game around O yards, scores and basic D stats. The appeal to the league was to be ot's depth. Since it s H2H wit a relatively low point output each week, how would you feel if you got a "L" because your opponent got a 99 yard KR, but you kicked his but in all otehr points. It was too easy for a rare event to tip the scales proportionality. As far as "special teams" scoring in concerened. When Team A lines up for a punt or FG, Team B, shuffles its player to include "speacial" players (IE punt returners). Team B is on "special teams" ,not offense. So, regardless of perspective, and as far as CBS is concerened, blocked kicks, pounts and return TDs are special teams scores. You do, however, get 6 points if you own the INDIVIDUAL player that scores. For example, if Derick Mason returns a kick for a TD and you own Tenn D/ST, you would get 6 ST points + 6 Offensive" points. All in all, a deep, fun, competative league was my goal. Is it perfect? No. Does the commissioner have to make tough decisions? Yes. Do I want to find ways to improvenext year? Yes. I'm looking forward to seeing you all chase me to the finals! rfs ® 96 Ref       ID: 121135289       Sun, Sep 01, 2002, 12:18 Not to follow on Rfs' coat tails, but I have got to back him up 100% Him and I worked tirelessly on these rules and scoring point vaules. Sometimes we changed his scoring system--only to change it back later because the original way made more sense. Sometimes we changed it because the new way seemed much better and it stayed that way. Ask RFS and CC Rider how long we went back and forth on Defensive points before agreeing on a compromize!!! I plaed devils advocate on essesntially every rule. Made RFS give me reasoning for his rules and back them up. He did the same to me on my rules. What we ended up with his the absolute best we could do. There are certain rules that I HAD to have included. Certain rules RFS HAD to have included and we both agreed on them. We've both played in enough leagues that we knew the tricks that people play and how we used the rules to our advantage--just as good players do. We tried to eliminate people taking advantage of the rules (like drafting injured players and storing them on your roster and grabbing more players before the first game played). With 24 teams we had to eliminate ways for teams to get unfair advantages. Bottom line is that we went back and forth--in a fun way. We hit so many issues it wasn't even funny. It was fun though. Even rules I didn't want in I bounced off RFS so he could give me reasoning and vice versa. STLCards, your suggestion did come up and we shot it down for the reason RFS mentioned. Why would you help a struggling D? A D that is scored on so frequently is going to turn around and outscore opponents because they are kicked off to more frequently? We all know kickoffs are where the big returns are. Punt returns seldom result in big yards. But like RFS said we put these rules up for discussion. I certainly wouldn't have drafted Defense so highly if not for their potential point value. We all know that defenses can be weird. Who would have thought Cleveland would do as well as they did last year?!?! So, like kickers some of them are a crap shoot. I also didn't take STL's comments as a flame. I've known STL awhile and know how he is and understand his comments completely. The draft is done and unless it's a rule that is crucial and an emergency to change--we just can't do it for this year. 97 Perm Dude       Leader       ID: 87192619       Sun, Sep 01, 2002, 13:13 Please don't take rules/scoring suggestions as taking away from all the work you folks have put into the league. I do have to agree with Cards on this one regarding return yards. The idea behind this league is to "replicate" the NFL. While return yards don't always change a game, sometimes they certainly can. How often have we seen a 4th quarter punt return set up a winning score? The return yards need not be over-represented, but they should not be discounted entirely. And, as a coach who has looked over the free-agent listing in dispair the last 24 hours, I can tell you that there are very few return guys who are probably not already on rosters as third or fourth receivers anyway. Just my .02 pd 98 Ref       ID: 121135289       Sun, Sep 01, 2002, 13:24 Thanks PD. I don't think the suggestions are taking away from the work put into it. My post was just emphasizing that we talked about that suggestions along with dozens and dozens of others. The rules were posted for feedback yet this one never came up until STL brought it up. If there was such wide support for it, I think I can safely speak for RFS and CC in saying that we'd have done something to address the league's desires. 99 Ref       ID: 121135289       Sun, Sep 01, 2002, 13:27 Remember, waivers go until 9/2. You can't put players on I/R until after first game though. I have some players that were auto-drafted as well that I am not happy about--but may hold onto them for now until I can identify players that can possibly help me. It's tough! 100 StLCards       Sustainer       ID: 23730222       Sun, Sep 01, 2002, 14:20 I would like to add that I VERY MUCH appreciate all the hard work and effort that went into this League!! I realize up front in raising this issue that the comment period (for this year) is over and I am not suggesting it be changed now (OK, so I have MarTay Jenkins AND Steve Smith, D'oh!). We can look at it this year and consider some changes for next year if they appear appropriate. I personally wouldn't mind losing a game if a kick returner on a bad Defensive team got a lot of chances and thus yds. That stat is in every draft type league I've played in IIRC. That jsut adds to the strategy. Some of the better players are on teams with good D's like Mason. Just like certain kickers are better because they are on teams with good offenses then return specialists on bad teams might also be good. If ST was not included with D then it would not penalize the D. To me it just helps keep player options more balanced. It seems that even fullbacks can do OK in this scoring if they are the go to guy at the goal line. Of course, people like Marshall who run catch and score will blow everyone else out of the water. A starting special teams player should have a chance to get in on some scoring too. Again, just something to look at and think more about. I think this league will be alot of fun, and thanks again! If it were up to me, it would not have happened as I am a bit of a procrastinator as you can tell, LOL! It will be interesting to see how scoring goes. I think no one is in really great shape at all positions. thanks for listening. 101 Ref       ID: 121135289       Sun, Sep 01, 2002, 14:53 Thanks STL. And agreed. No one is in great shape. I was going to put the poll for who had the best draft, but in going through some teams to give choices for--I couldn't find one!!! I through up the default poll until we could think of one. One good thing I see coming out of having so many teams is the potential for a lot more trading. Since most of the FAs just don't cut it--this could be a huge part of our league. Remember we also have draft picks available. That could add an element of strategy as well. 102 APerfect10       Leader       ID: 407161410       Sun, Sep 01, 2002, 17:39 After further analysis my team doesnt appear to be in to sad of shape, actually its in decent shape. I didnt noticed I drafted a backup QB. I'm still disappointed with CBS.sportsline in drafting 3 TE along with NO kickers and selecting the defense I had ranked dead last. If I can get one of these trades to go through, I'll be in good shape. I currently have 3 of the top 7 TE on my cheatsheet. If you are interested in one of them for a K & DT, send trade offers to the Ravens :) 103 Perm Dude       Leader       ID: 347122610       Sun, Sep 01, 2002, 19:02 AP10, CBS seemed to ignore my rankings, and I could not get into the draft because the link to my team did not show up when I logged in. As a result, I got TB's D in the first round, and did not get a QB until the last (Beuerlein, who's not even a starter). I got 3 Ds and 3 kickers. While I'm happy with James Stewart as a RB, everyone and their mother seems to want him in a trade! I'm truly hoping for another Tom Brady to emerge so at least I can get a QB who's going to do more on the field than hold for FGs. pd 104 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Sun, Sep 01, 2002, 19:24 For anyone that is unhappy with their QB situation, Jim Miller is available for trade. Now, I know Jim Miller isn't going to the hall of fame, but as a QB that is actually going to be on the field, he has some relative value in this league. The only way I trade him is for someone who at least starts at their position too. I'm looking for a middle to lower tier RB that receives playing time. I'd be willing to package a WR into the mix in a 2 for 1 or 2 for 2 deal as well. rfs ® 105 Peter N.       Donor       ID: 26853115       Sun, Sep 01, 2002, 19:37 Brad Johnson is on the trading block Under John Gruden, he should excel. Just take a look at what Gruden did for Gannon's career. Those interested, send me an offer. I'm looking for a starting RB. 106 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Mon, Sep 02, 2002, 10:19 PD- Nice pickup with Peete! That announcement only happened about 6P PST. I thought it might go unnoticed! rfs ® 107 Ref       ID: 121135289       Mon, Sep 02, 2002, 11:18 We told everyone in this post, on the site and via e-mail as well as in the rules. YOU CAN NOT PUT PLAYERS ON INJURED LIST BEFORE FIRST GAME!!! Oakland has done this yet again and we have reversed it. 108 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Mon, Sep 02, 2002, 12:31 To All: A note about adding players (without a corresponding drop or DL move). As you may see, it is possible to add a player to your team without dropping one. Of course you will get an "illegal" roster warning. However, if you do this, I, or Ref, or CCRider will immediately reverse it. The reason is to prevent owners from "hoarding" players. For example, if we didn't reverse these moves, there would be nothing from stopping an owner from adding 2,4,6,8,10+ players to his team and waiting until the hour before kickoff to drop the ones he really didn't want. The benefit would be to deter the rest of the league from getting access to much of the FA market. Also, the rules clearly state a few points about DL requirements. You can read them all, but I'll highlight here: 1) If a player goes on DL, he must miss 1 week minimum. So, be SURE you want to go to DL before you "click!" 2) A player must be on your roster 1 week before he can go to DL as well. For example, you couldn't pick up D. Rhodes and send him to DL until he served 1 week on your bench. 3) Only legal DL moves are those that are suspended, PUP, NFL-IR, or listed as "out" or "doubtful" on the weekl NFL injury report. NOTE: "questionable" does not count!!!! I will (try to) post the report (a link) at the website weekly 109 Promize       Sustainer       ID: 124153113       Mon, Sep 02, 2002, 12:35 Hey RFS Just change your commish settings: Front Office / League Settings / Permissions Require Add/Drops to be approved by commisioner 110 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Mon, Sep 02, 2002, 12:46 Promize, I know that is an option, but with 24 teams making changes, I don't want to have to approve them all. Besides, what happens if I sleep in (for 2 das straight) or lose Internet access and someone doesn't get their last minute change made? I'd rather reverse bad "adds" than approve all "adds." rfs ® 111 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Mon, Sep 02, 2002, 13:08 NFL Injury report to be used a a guide for DL moves 112 Doug       ID: 3411223       Mon, Sep 02, 2002, 14:16 Ref, I only put Crowell on the DL once, before I realized it wasn't allowed. If it happened again, it's because something got screwed up on the site. 113 Ref       ID: 121135289       Mon, Sep 02, 2002, 16:15 Doug, that is correct, but the pickup wasn't cancelled. 114 BlueBalls       ID: 36592323       Mon, Sep 02, 2002, 19:08 Perm Dude I'd love to take one of the kickers off your hands. 115 StLCards       Sustainer       ID: 4431816       Tue, Sep 03, 2002, 10:48 I will have to say that my draft pretty much sucked. I totally forgot about 2 flex positions and wasted picks on other less important positions like K and TE (as noticed by Ref during the draft). My thought was to start a core of younger players and build for the future and I have a few that meet that criteria. Unfortunately I don't feel like I have a decent option at 1flex much less the 2flex position. As we used to say every year about this time when we still had the Cardinals in St. Louis, "wait 'till next year!" My drafting was as good as Boone's was when he drafted for the Cards. Heck, I've eve got two Cardinals on my team, yikes! 116 StLCards       Sustainer       ID: 4431816       Tue, Sep 03, 2002, 11:26 Is the site down? I can access my other team but not the one for this league. 117 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 337443111       Tue, Sep 03, 2002, 11:30 StLCards: I got in just fine, albeit a bit slow. 118 StLCards       Sustainer       ID: 4431816       Tue, Sep 03, 2002, 11:51 Must have just been a temporary glitch. I'm in fine now. 119 StLCards       Sustainer       ID: 4431816       Wed, Sep 04, 2002, 10:41 I received an email saying a trade was approved by the league commissioner between Atlanta and Pittsburgh. Is there a way to view trades that have been accepted? For this trade I am assuming that Ref or CCriders approved it and I trust it is fair, it would just be interesting to me to track the various trades that are made over the year. Since Atlanta is who I am playing this week, I am pretty sure he picked up Jim Miller, but not sure what the details of the trade were. Is this published information somewhere on the league page? I can't find it. Thanks. 120 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 337443111       Wed, Sep 04, 2002, 11:51 Twarpy- payment arrived yesterday. It was registered and I wasn't home, so I have to go to PO to pick it up, but consider yourself paid-in-full. rfs 121 Promize       Sustainer       ID: 124153113       Wed, Sep 04, 2002, 12:04 I agree with RFS, should we be voting on trades? Etc? What's to stop teams from stacking each other, and say just spliting the winning money in the end? When also is deadline for trades for the season? 122 Promize       Sustainer       ID: 124153113       Wed, Sep 04, 2002, 12:05 I mean I agree with StL! LoL 123 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 337443111       Wed, Sep 04, 2002, 12:14 StLCards: All trades are approved/denied by a commissioner. Since I was involved in that one, it was kicked to Ref or CCRider to approve or deny. This is to be fair. If they make a trade, they cannot approve their own trade either. The criterai for approving a trade is "good judgement" Of couse every trade may have a winner and a loser, but there is a lot to take into account when deciding if a trade is fair..... 1) Keeper league and future potential of the players involved. 2) Who needs what to survive? IE no kicker? Then a kicker is suddenly VERY valuable and you may have to trade a RB to get one! 3) No side deals (future draft picks OK) 4) No collusion Trades will not be denied because they "look" lopsided. They will only be denied if there is obvious intent to manipulate or collude. For example, if the week before trade dealine, if I trade Kurt Warner to a contender for Ricky Dudley, THAT WOULD BE DENIED! If a trade is denied, there is also an appeals arbitration process in the rules that the owners involved can go to for relief. Bottom line is that we have to rely on the good judgement of the commissioner(s) in approving/denying trades StLCards: To see all trades, go to: "teams" "transaction reports" "only trades" (you can also sort from here line up changes or DL moves or whatever you wish to see) rfs ® 124 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 337443111       Wed, Sep 04, 2002, 12:24 Q. What's to stop teams from stacking each other, and say just spliting the winning money in the end? A. Bottom line is that we have to rely on the good judgement of the commissioner(s) in approving/denying trades. Promize: I hope that helps answer the question rfs ® 125 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 337443111       Wed, Sep 04, 2002, 12:26 On a side note about trades: Ref, CCRider and I will not unnecessarily delay trade approval or denial, but BE AWARE if you make a last minute trade (IE Sunday morning), we may not be online to process it before roster freeze. WARNING: Trade late at your own risk! rfs ® 126 Promize       Sustainer       ID: 124153113       Wed, Sep 04, 2002, 12:30 Okie dok :-) I'm sure the reason StL asked this, is in our league we do it by voting... When is trade deadlines again? 127 StLCards       Sustainer       ID: 4431816       Wed, Sep 04, 2002, 12:36 Actually the reason I asked was I wanted to know how to see the moves :) Rules state that commish or assistant will approve all trades and that is fine by me. last day to trade according to rules is the "roster freeze of week 12". 128 Ref       ID: 28045169       Wed, Sep 04, 2002, 12:41 CC Rider, approved the trade Miller for Hearst. But I was set to approve it as well. The trade to me seems like the guy that got Hearst was the clear winner, but like rfs said someone may need a player at a particular position and jsut because hearst may (pr may not) score more points, it doesn't mean that the trade is bad. Miller may score a lot more points at his position that hearst would have at his comparitively. Like RFS said, jsut because one side in our mind may have got a slightly better deal, one side could be more desperate and willing to pay a premium. That is not grounds for a denial. The trade should be listed on transactions report, but I haven't checked it yet. IF there are some people that do not like it and a commissioner is involved in the trade--then we will put it up for a league vote as specified in the Consitituion (See help rules). 129 StLCards       Sustainer       ID: 4431816       Wed, Sep 04, 2002, 13:03 Woah! Miller for Hearst? I would have gladly traded Dilfer for Hearst, and I could have actually had a Forty-Niner on my team. This league being so thin, if you want to get something you have to give something in return. ATL had no starting QB and 2 solid RB's without Hearst so it is easy to see the reasoning. Even without Hearst he is slated to whoop my team by 15 points, LOL! 130 Ref       ID: 28045169       Wed, Sep 04, 2002, 13:12 Exactly STL. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. RFS got Miller for trade bait and it certainly worked out for him. Both teams improved--which is ideal. 131 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 337443111       Wed, Sep 04, 2002, 13:19 ..there are 2 sides to every story.... Yes, I think my team improved week to week and I can now play Hearst at flex instead of C. Bradford, but.... I have now have no one to fill in for Warner in week 8. I also have MIA D (also so sub) and Chambers on bye that same week. The trade all but assured me of a loss in week 8. Out of 13 H2H games, 1 gimme loss is HUGE! If I had kept Miller, I would have had a chance in week 8. Will it be better in the short run or long run? Atlanta def improved. He was set to get 0 from Flutie each week, thus almost guaranteed a loss EACH week. He HAD to get a QB that got PT. (No offense StLCards, but I bet Miller outscore Dilfer this year). What gould was an extra RB for Atlanta if he gets 0 in the QB category? rfs ® 132 StLCards       Sustainer       ID: 4431816       Wed, Sep 04, 2002, 13:27 RFS - I don't doubt Miller does outscore Dilfer, just hopefully in week 1 Miller doesn't do well (since I'm playing against ATL, LOL). I totally agree with you RFS. It is not a trade you would normally think of in even 12 or 14 team leagues as their is always someone else available. This league is a different story however. Will be interesting to see the different trades made and how scoring goes this year. I actually think Hearst could have less than expected points this year anyway, if Barlow keeps shining. 133 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 337443111       Wed, Sep 04, 2002, 13:30 I'm surprsed there have not been more trades. I think people are thinking in terms of traditional 10-14 team leagues. So far transactions have consisted of owners dropping "no one" for "no one" No offense to anyone! rfs ® 134 Ref       ID: 28045169       Wed, Sep 04, 2002, 14:52 I've had a few offers but nothing that could really help me. 135 CanEHdian Pride       Donor       ID: 426351415       Wed, Sep 04, 2002, 15:01 I love it....no damn votes on trades. I've never understood why Gurupie leagues needed the "veto" process. Especially where everyone is paying money to play. I really doubt that any collusion will take place and the only reason there will be a slightly unbalanced trade is if the manager think less of a players abilities then others or needs to fill a need. Another great call by the commissioner's of this fine league. BTW, don't be surprised if another trade is on the desk before tomorrow's kickoff. I'm currently trying to push through a 3 team deal, terms may be further away then I think not having to talked to either manager but IMO all sides benefit. Stay tuned. 136 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Wed, Sep 04, 2002, 16:47 CanEHdian Pride: If you do a 3-team deal, best to e-mail one of the commissioners the details. The website is really only equipped to do team-team transactions. Also, the commissioner will need an "okey dokey" from the other 2 teams before pulling the trigger. Also, CP posed a question to me that is fair for all to see... A trade CAN include a "player to be named later" (PTBNL) But, it should include that in the terms of the trade. In otherwords, no bringing it up later for the first time in 6 weeks! All terms have to be diclose at the time of the trade. If you have questions, best to ask them ahead of time. rfs ® 137 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Wed, Sep 04, 2002, 16:56 Perhaps that last post was unclear, so let me give you an example: Team A trades WR + K to Team B for WR + TE + PTBNL (named by week 6) At week 6, the PTBNL would be "named" and Team A would have to make room for him on his roster. rfs ® 138 Ref       ID: 28045169       Wed, Sep 04, 2002, 17:06 I started another thread that just talks about trade banter to try and seperate some of the content. 139 StLCards       Sustainer       ID: 23730222       Fri, Sep 06, 2002, 00:12 In the rules above it states "Receiving Yards (150+) .125 points each" Shouldn't that say 151+? Just a minor thing and I am assuming it is just wording. Otherwise there is an overlap at 150yds between .1 and .125. 140 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Fri, Sep 06, 2002, 00:15 StLCards- Yes, it is actually 151 in the CBS commissioner settings. Ignore my inadvertant typo! 141 APerfect10       Leader       ID: 39143521       Sat, Sep 07, 2002, 15:24 rfs, cEHp and myself have agreed to terms on a deal, however when we try to submit the deal through CBS it says "You may not offer a trade at this time". There is no mention of a trading deadline during the week. If there is a deadline, it doesnt make much sense and was never noted prior to the season. Starting lineups can still be set, so why wouldnt trades be allowed? Please let me know the details with this. If we can get the trade through earlier than the beginning of next week it would be appreciated. But then again, you have a good reason not to let the trade go through, since I'm playing you this week ;) (I'm just kidding of course) 142 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Sat, Sep 07, 2002, 17:18 AP10 & CP ---- See post #125. "last minute traders beware" is the closest rule I have to the topic. The reason there is no mention of a weekly trade dealine in the rules is that I had no idea CBS would cut off the trading procedure with the first game of the week. I have to have the trade done between the two of you online, then I get an e-mail, then I go to the "front office" and hit approve or deny so that it executes. Really, I would have no problem processing the trade (as long as it's fair, which I assume it is), but I cannot do it as the capacity is not there. Honestly, it has nothing to do with the fact that I am playing against you (or not). Besides, unless you are getting Faulk, I'm gonna kick your arse anyway! ;) I guess to summarize what I have learned so far this weekend: CBS cuts off adds, waivers & trades with the kickoff of the first game rfs ® 143 APerfect10       Leader       ID: 39143521       Sat, Sep 07, 2002, 18:51 Thanks for the response... Truthfully I like my chances against you with my current lineup. I think its a solid matchup, however, if the trade would've been processed.... Nanna na na, nanna na na, hey hey hey, Goodbye! 144 Ref       ID: 121135289       Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 12:15 There are 22 paid for prize pool. Just as I thought there would be. Only St. Louis and Cleveland are not eligible for prize money. So if one of them make the playoffs, I will re-work the payouts. Otherwise it stands as posted in rules. 146 APerfect10       Leader       ID: 39143521       Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 15:31 commissioner.com is the worst fantasy sports site in the history of fantasy sports. How much did we pay for this league? Where is the live scoring? Why dont the pages load 50% of the time? This is sad... 147 Baldwin       ID: 4261155       Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 17:18 Prolly just openning week jitters tho I doubt it ever works completely glitch-free. 148 GoatLocker       Sustainer       ID: 2601630       Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 19:35 I've played a baseball Roto League using commissioner.com for 4 years and have found it to be very stable and problem free. Assuming just hiccups at the beginning of the season. Cliff 149 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 19:36 AP10- My live scoring is working just fine (albeit sow). I'll save you the headache of having to check.... you buried me! rfs ® 150 APerfect10       Leader       ID: 39143521       Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 20:18 rfs, it appears the scoring is updated now. However, all afternoon it wasnt. Good game & best of luck the rest of the season. Check this out, I know it doesnt matter but I found it interesting. The rest of my games this season are away. :) 151 Baldwin       ID: 4261155       Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 21:33 None of my scoring has been updated since yesterday. What link are you finding today's scores on? 152 StLCards       Sustainer       ID: 23730222       Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 22:21 Scoreboard/live scoring 153 Ref       ID: 121135289       Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 22:52 Slow isn't the word to describe it. It didn't even get the first games done until halftime of the 2nd games and that was the first time it was updates since the games were just underway. Now they don't even exist at all. I know they will be back, but they know their servers are going to bebombed like this. They get paid now--you think they'd be ready for this. It's usually a LOT better than this. I've used this for several years myself. 154 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 57830822       Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 22:54 FYI- I have found that "live scoring works much better with Netscape 7.0 than with Internet Explorer. rfs ® 155 ksoze       Sustainer       ID: 50643419       Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 23:02 Well, I was getting live scoring, sort of. Now I'm getting this: NOTE: Once the NFL season begins, you can visit this page while games are in progress to track your players statistics and the score of your current matchup in real-time. 156 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 23:29 "live scoring" is working just fine for me in Netscape. (except it is giving AP10 too many frickin' points) ;) 158 Baldwin       ID: 4261155       Mon, Sep 09, 2002, 03:07 I was gettin Ksoze' message all day but it started working sometime after midnite. I have often found these live tracking systems to hang up the first game of the season. I am not overly concerned. 159 StLCards       Sustainer       ID: 4431816       Tue, Sep 10, 2002, 10:51 How do I move someone to IR? I tried to move Zach Crockett to IR but it says that the transaction would have resulted in an illegal roster move, that I would only have 4 reserves. 160 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 337443111       Tue, Sep 10, 2002, 11:22 StLCards - "It's a website thing" It won't allow you to make a roster move independantly to become illegal (safeguard), so since you want to put someone on IR, I assume you want to pick up a replacement player, yes? OK, go to free agents and find the player you want. Click on "add this player" You will be directed to a screen (2 boxes) that ask you who you want to "drop" Below drop is a "move to IR" option. By doing it this way, you will be adding/moving to IR in the same 'click' and when waivers are processed, both moves will be made. If you don't get your guy off waivers, you can try again with another player in the same fashion until you fill your position. make sense? rfs ® 161 StLCards       Sustainer       ID: 4431816       Tue, Sep 10, 2002, 11:26 LOL, RFS. I tried that first, and it told me that you cannot move a player to IR and add a player at the same time. It said to move the player to IR from the Lineup page first. 162 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 337443111       Tue, Sep 10, 2002, 11:57 StLCards- I made an adjustment. Try to move your player to IR from the lineups page now. I think it will work. Keep in mind, once a player is on IR, you must leave him there a minimum of 1 game. In othehrwords, if Crocket makes a miraculous recovery on Saturday, you cannot reactivate him until week #3. Please let me know if it did or didn't go through. rfs ® 163 StLCards       Sustainer       ID: 4431816       Tue, Sep 10, 2002, 12:00 I just read that Crockett will be listed as questionable for Sunday's game and therefore will be ineligible for DL status anyway, but I would like to know the answer to this for the future anyway. Thanks. 164 StLCards       Sustainer       ID: 4431816       Tue, Sep 10, 2002, 12:02 oops, just saw your post. I can try it if you undo it for me right away, If you want to test it that is. thanks. 165 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 337443111       Tue, Sep 10, 2002, 12:13 StLCards - Go ahead and try it. You can "undo" it yourself from the lineups page after you are done. I'll post a message that we were "experimenting" just in case anyone wonders what was going on! rfs ® 166 StLCards       Sustainer       ID: 4431816       Tue, Sep 10, 2002, 12:16 Tried it and it worked. Moved to IR fine. I then moved him back to the bench. thanks again. 167 StLCards       Sustainer       ID: 4431816       Tue, Sep 10, 2002, 12:25 rfs - I can see a potential problem. The official DL list is going to be the official NFL report (normally released on Thursday) according to our rules. The waiver process starts on Tuesday. What if someone moves a player to IR (for example Crockett, who is listed as "out indefinitely" in the Gurupie League) prior to Thursday and picks up a player off waivers in that vacated spot, and then on Thursday's official report the player moved to IR is listed as questionable or some other non-DL eligible condition? 168 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 337443111       Tue, Sep 10, 2002, 13:22 StLCards - Let me think about this a bit.... But, my first reaction is to wait until Thursday's injury report. If the player doesn't qualify for DL status, I would reverse the DL move and release the player picked up from the waiver wire. That way, the owner is no worse off than he would have been if the DL report were out early. If the DL is legit, the transaction stands. Obviously, I'd hope owners would use the DL cautiosly -- much like you are doing with Zack. This is NOT an official answer yet, I want input from Ref & CCRider before I finalize my decision. Or other can give their $0.02 too. 169 Ref       ID: 28045169       Wed, Sep 11, 2002, 11:39 I brought this up before the season and e-mailed rfs about my thoughts again. I think he forgot we talked about it, but I will let rfs post in response. 170 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 337443111       Wed, Sep 11, 2002, 11:52 Doug (Oakland) I reversed the Buckhalter to IR move and released your replacement (Jordan). The rules clearly state that a player cannot go from free agency/waivers to IR without spending a week on your roster (bench or starter). The reason for the rule is to prevent "player stashing" which is exactly what you are trying to do. To All: I, Ref, and CCRider spent hours writing the rules for your benefit. Please take a moment to review them. rfs 171 StLCards       Sustainer       ID: 4431816       Wed, Sep 11, 2002, 13:22 I find it difficult to sort the rules on this page, but they can be found on the League site under help/league rules. Also has the scoring there. Took me a bit to find them so I'm just sharing. 172 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 337443111       Wed, Sep 11, 2002, 14:24 A MS Word document of the rules is available via e-mail if anyone wants it too! rfs ® 173 Ref       ID: 28045169       Wed, Sep 11, 2002, 16:02 It's pretty difficult to put a player on IR when the report doesn't come out until Thursday! so unless a player has a broken leg where everyon ein their brother knows he will be out, you can't pick up a player for your DL move because they are not injured officially!!! We can't stop you from putting them on the DL, but we can reverse your moves when you pick up a player for them. If that causes too many problems, then we will ahve to approve every transaction made. We don't want to be jerks, but with 24 teams, it's difficult!!! Please read the rules and abide by them so we don't have to lock it down. I really enjoy getting a FA imediately when avail. and I bet everyone else does too. 174 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 456181014       Wed, Sep 11, 2002, 19:33 A specific question came up about DL transactions. A player who is unsigned [or placed on NFL waivers] MAY be placed on the DL Of course he can't go straight from free agnecy to DL- he would have to sit on your team a minimum of 1 week. The DL limit is still 2 players. rfs ® 175 Ref       ID: 28045169       Thu, Sep 12, 2002, 12:43 To further my point on post 173: Pollard has been DLed and a player was picked up for him. I heard this morning that Pollard says he's going to be ready to play this Sunday. No official word has been made from the Colts but earlier they didn't think he'd be ready. A lot changes from Mone to Thurs. Therefore, you must wait until the official NFL report comes out before making a pickup for DLed players. THEN once you DL a player, he cannot start for you for a min of one week. 176 rockafellerskank       Sustainer       ID: 337443111       Thu, Sep 12, 2002, 13:24 Ref: Although you heard that Pollard might play, he is "officially" listed as DOUBTFUL TE Marcus Pollard (Chest) for this week according to: the official NFL injury report Now, while I agree that going too early is bad and may cause problems, in this case, Pollard to DL is a LEGAL move. The reason to use the official injury report is because different people will hear different things from different sources. Thus we need a standard. However, if that owners hears on Sunday morning that Pollard is "ready to go", HE CANNOT RE-ACTIVATE POLLARD THIS WEEK! rfs ® 177 Ref       ID: 28045169       Thu, Sep 12, 2002, 15:42 RFS, I was getting ready to post your exact msg. Since you've already added the link I am posting simply to show that I've read this post. The reason I didn't reverse Pollard's pickup was because 1. I'm extremely busy this week and 2. I wanted to wait for the official injury report today since it was so late. If you think your player has a chance to play--DO NOT put him on the DL. If you put him on the DL, he will be inelligible to play that week. With such a large league, we are doing all we can to protect the league from player stashing/hoarding. Thanks for your help and understanding in this matter. 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