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Subject: Gurupie 24 2003 Official Rule Changes Discussion
Posted by: Ref
- Donor [100261311] Mon, Jun 30, 2003, 16:17
Here are the rules changes:
There will be no DL this year. Instead the draft will be one round longer to add an extra player on your roster.
There will be 2 points for blocked XP this year.
Here are the rule changes that are up for discussion:
Proposals we are considering are adding a point to the defense for blocks and safeties. These are big plays that can turn a game around. Blocked punts and FG would go to 4 pts and a Safety would go to 4.
Doug has suggested adding points for yards allowed. To this point, rfs and I have not embraced that suggestion, so we have not looked at the points that would be assigned to it.
We need to have discussion on this. Once rfs and I decide on these changes (or others) we will make them official then make a date in which your official Keeper list must be submitted.
If you have other rules suggestion, this is the time to add it or the time to defend for or against any rule you want/don't want changed.
Thanks to everyone in advance. |
| 2 | StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 133252814
Mon, Jun 30, 2003, 16:35
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I'll have to look at numbers more, but my general impression is that generally solid play of a D is a lot less important than special teams play. An interception or fumble can be just as big, if not bigger, than a blocked FG or extra point, yet in the new scheme would be worth only 1/2 the value as a blocked FG.
Is it possible to run an analysis based on last years league scoring and somehow compare that to D and ST rankings by the NFL? Is seems that should be highly correlated. Also an analysis of how the new scoring compares to the old would be informative.
I really felt the D/ST scoring was the most difficult to predict and possibly least predictive of the effort on any given day. My D (Wash) sucked last year, but I felt it was primarily the fault of a crappy Washington Offense. They kept turning the ball over all the time, so the D never had a chance based on our scoring system.
In our league last year it was definitely proven that every point counts, so any changes should be made carefully.
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| 3 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Mon, Jun 30, 2003, 16:46
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One thing I'd like to change that CBS apparently doesn't track is -2 for fumble by the defense/ST.
I should add that the 2 pts for blocked XP could be as low as 1 pt, but 2 is what we pretty much decided on. defense and special teams are combined. Therefore if you get the Bears Defense, you also have their ST. Same as last year.
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| 4 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Mon, Jun 30, 2003, 17:02
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One more thing, I've been looking at other leagues and our safety was really low. This actually scores 2 pts for the team. In other leagues it's as low as 2 pts and as high as 6. We have it at 3 now. I agree that it should be at 4 pts. Blocks are at 3 now. The proposal is 4. for punts and FG. The only cheap blocks are when a guy is trying for a long FG and it turns into a pretty easy block, but still it's a big play. A blocked XP could be huge, but not as big as the others. It will be at 1 or 2 points for the defense and right now we're pretty sure it will be 2 points.
These are up for discussion. This league has 24 members and we hope that the members let us know one way or the others and why these changes should or should not be made and any others they want to bring up.
I liked Doug's post on yds allowed. It was sound reasoning and he backed it up with good info and was prudent with the assigned points. The only thing I'm personally afraid of is a good day or bad day getting even more/less points than they already are. That could make the defense too powerful or too hurtful for your team.
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| 5 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Wed, Jul 02, 2003, 16:45
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I'm looking over the site now. For some reason blocked XPs again are not featured at all to be able to do automatically. I'm going to email CBS about that. However, this year they have included -2 pts for a special teams fumble.
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| 6 | Promize
Sustainer
ID: 19431422
Fri, Jul 04, 2003, 14:33
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I don't think I got any email about payment being due and how much...
Who and how much do I need to send this year?
And what is the PayPal address again.
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| 7 | Ref
Donor
ID: 27016179
Fri, Jul 04, 2003, 22:39
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if i still have his original email I wil forward it to whoever needs it.
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| 8 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 42109719
Sat, Jul 05, 2003, 00:04
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ref, send that to me please
THK
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| 9 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Mon, Jul 07, 2003, 12:33
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I forwarded the msg that was sent to all of us a couple months ago. I sent it to everyone as it was simply easier and I've had at least 6 people tell me they've never gotten the email. If you still didn't get it today, either your spam filter is zapping it or your email has changed.
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| 10 | Promize
Sustainer
ID: 19431422
Mon, Jul 07, 2003, 12:34
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I still need an email for the payment of the league
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| 11 | rfs on vacation
ID: 22631711
Mon, Jul 07, 2003, 12:35
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Promize, send Pay Pal payents to me @
rockafellerskank007@yahoo.com
Thx.
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| 12 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Mon, Jul 07, 2003, 12:44
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That email I jsut sent has all that info in it...unfortunately, I haven't even received it myself yet, so hard telling how long it will take to generate as it was to the entire league's email address.
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| 13 | Promize
Sustainer
ID: 19431422
Mon, Jul 07, 2003, 12:45
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how much is due this year?
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| 14 | rfs on vacation
ID: 22631711
Mon, Jul 07, 2003, 12:48
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$6 website fees
$15 optional prize pool
rfs (off to Six Flags)
later
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| 15 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Tue, Jul 08, 2003, 19:07
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Again, all rules changes will become official this week. This will be your last chance for any input/discussion. As soon as we make them official we will announce key dates such as keeper list and when our slow board/e-mail draft will begin and time limits.
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| 16 | skinneej
Sustainer
ID: 40625911
Wed, Jul 09, 2003, 19:31
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No problem with the scoring changes and I would not add yards allowed for defenses. Just makes it tougher to figure out where you stand even with live scoring which we know is usually off anyway.
How are the key dates going to be broken down? I assume that when a keeper date is set that no matter how many players you have on your team (old DL players or players added through trades) every team will have 9 players (or less) after that date. Teams that make trades after the keeper date can potentially take on extra players plus those with extra draft picks can have more than the maximum 14 players after the draft is complete. Will there be a period where teams can make trades and other moves before a cutoff date where roster limits have to be at or below the maximum? Is the slow draft going to be conducted offline, either on these boards or through e-mail, or through the CBS site? That may affect how these roster limit issue can be handled.
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| 17 | rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 27652109
Fri, Jul 11, 2003, 12:48
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I assume that when a keeper date is set that no matter how many players you have on your team (old DL players or players added through trades) every team will have 9 players (or less) after that date. Yes. The keepers date is still looking like 7/16 and all teams will be cut down to 9 players or less.
Teams that make trades after the keeper date can potentially take on extra players plus those with extra draft picks can have more than the maximum 14 players after the draft is complete
Not Exactly. If you acquire extra players through trade or exra draft picks, your draft will end at 14 players (9 keepers + 5 rounds).
Will there be a period where teams can make trades and other moves before a cutoff date where roster limits have to be at or below the maximum? Related to the comment above, at no time can you have over 14 players.
Is the slow draft going to be conducted offline, either on these boards or through e-mail, or through the CBS site? The plan is to conduct a slow draft on the rotoguru football standings boards. However, owners may e-mail picks (queues) to a commissioner who will pst the pick at the proper time. Owners areencouraged to do this. There will be a strict 24-hour limit imposed on picks (Ref, should we relax that on weekends?) I plan to e-mail owners (as much as possible) if they have been on the clock 12 hours... to help keep things moving along.
Those are my answers to your questions, Ref agree? Disagree with anything?
rfs
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| 18 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Fri, Jul 11, 2003, 13:07
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RFS, we have talked about all of this amongst ourselves obviously. Everything stated is exactly what we've discussed. The only thing would be that there may be a time through the draft where we make the time limit shorter (less than 24 hrs to pick). We will go over all the rules once we announce keeper date and beginning of draft.
We did have our first off-season trade last night.
The main reason to have less than 9 players would be if you have more draft picks than slots available. Like RFS said once you hit 14, you are done. If you don't hit 14, you cannot pickup anyone until the waiver priority begins. (No free pickups to get your team up to max.)
So, if you have 9 keepers and have 6 draft picks, you will pass in the 5th round.
The key to the draft will be the quickness of drafting by our members. The quicker we select, the later we can make it. If you get skipped, you may choose your pick at anytime after that.
Keepers will be due at least a week before the draft. Again, RFS will finalize the new rules this week and then finalize all dates.
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| 19 | skinneej
Sustainer
ID: 23611910
Fri, Jul 11, 2003, 15:02
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Sounds good guys. I was thinking that if your were able to carry more than the max after the draft then you'd have a chance to evalute some players during preseason before trimming your roster down - sort of like training camp. By picking up some extra draft picks for a player I may cut anyway, I could take a gamble and see if they pan out. If they don't, they get dumped before the season begins, but it does add some extra dimensions. Anyway, I can understand that it may be difficult to keep up with so no biggie.
I'm looking forward to the keeper date to see who's available. I need to figure out what I'm going to do because I have 10 players I want to keep, plus an extra draft pick now. Will there be a draft list available including the dropped players, rookies and all FA or are we on our own to pick players?
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| 20 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Fri, Jul 11, 2003, 15:11
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skinneej, others, including me, are in the same boat. I could realistically keep all but one of my players (that one isn't even in the CBS database for some reason). Since there is only 9, those people want to wait as late as possible to be forced to declare keepers. However, we can't let the draft last forever. If we can be assured that people won't take forever to draft, we can move the Keeper list back a week or two. But, at this point, rfs and I are still discussing that.
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| 21 | Peter N.
Donor
ID: 16441012
Fri, Jul 11, 2003, 15:31
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No, I think we should keep the keeper date at 7/16. Having a 24-hour limit per pick, we need to get the draft started by late July. Just my thoughts......
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| 22 | StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 133252814
Fri, Jul 11, 2003, 15:33
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My keepers are easy. I'm ready to get it going soon.
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| 23 | rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 27652109
Fri, Jul 11, 2003, 15:47
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RE: #19 Will there be a draft list available including the dropped players, rookies and all FA or are we on our own to pick players? Once all keepers are declared, I think the site will allow me to drop ALL the remaining players to free agency status. I can then download them all to a worksheet and post it.... or you could log onto the site and search free agents. Of course this solution will be limited to the data base CBS has at the time (which is usually pretty complete. In case this doesn't work out, it will be up to each owner to compose their own lists from their own private sources.
rfs
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| 24 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Fri, Jul 11, 2003, 16:02
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Update: Yesterday I changed the setting so you could drop players with the commish's approval. This could make it easier as you can drop your non-keepers. You may start to drop your non-keepers as soon as we announce the deadline. The site will show who is available. I'm going to play with it a little, but should also allow you to add a player after you've officially drafted that player. A commish has to approve every drop/add for it to go through until we turn on waivers.
As far as dates go, RFS and I are very close to announcing the official date. However, we will NOT do so until we make the rules changes FINAL.
The dates we posted before, weren't arbitrary, but weren't anything set either. So we wouldn't be pushing anything up or back. In fact, a 12-hour (or less) deadline to select isn't out of the question at this point. I've been in drafts which adhered to a strict 2 hour deadline before but IMO that isn't fair for something like this--esp. the first round or two.
Lastly, no one really commented on Doug's suggestion from the last thread:
I would like to "re-propose" adding a "Yards Allowed" adjustment to defensive scoring as follows:
0-100 yards - 7 points
101-150 - 4 points
151-200 - 3 points
201-250 - 2 points
251-300 - 1 points
301-350 - 0 points
351-400 - -1 points
401-450 - -2 points
451-500 - -3 points
501-550 - -4 points
551+ - -5 points
rfs and I have talked at length about this. Our feeling is that we like the concept but are worried about a great day being made even better and a bad day being made worse. Since we already drafted the bulk of our players with the original rules in mind, we don't want to overhaul any rule, but tweaking isn't out of the question.
One option would be to take this model, tweak it, then tweak the points given for points allowed by the defense.
Since apparently everything else in this thread is cool, this may be the only other tweak we will consider before we finalize the rules--which may happen as early as tonight or as late as this weekend.
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| 25 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Fri, Jul 11, 2003, 16:05
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Btw, I would like to "re-propose" adding a "Yards Allowed" adjustment to defensive scoring as follows: above, is Doug talking, not me.
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| 26 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Fri, Jul 11, 2003, 16:24
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Also, instead of cross-checking everything, I think it would be easier if rfs and myself simply drop and add your players manually rather than getting a million emails to cross-check then approve.
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| 27 | StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 133252814
Fri, Jul 11, 2003, 16:30
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I for one am in favor of some modest pts for yds allowed. I could see where it could add pts to an already good day, but it could also reward a D that had a good day, but due to their offense, had pts scored on them. I would also be in favor of negative pts for extremely poor days, like 450yds against efforts. Again, nothing huge, but something. It does seem an analysis (or even quick look) should be run with the new scoring proposals based on last years stats.
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| 28 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Fri, Jul 11, 2003, 16:37
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StL, agreed, I want to see avgs from last year to see where everything would fall into place. Then want to look at some avgs from what we had last year in our scoring system. It seems that some people like the idea, we just want to make it benefit the league positively. There MUST be negative points for bad days. May not be a perfect bell-curve, but good defenses should be rewarded just like another position over another modest to low-end player.
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| 29 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Sat, Jul 12, 2003, 01:08
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After a league meeting with rfs (and StL Cards), here is what he have come up with as far as rules changes:
* DL is gone, one roster space added as previously stated
* Blocked XPs are not able to be automatically calculated as planned so we are planning on scrapping that idea. If we can add it before the season we will do so and it will be for 1 point
* We will NOT change blocked FG or blocked punts
* A Safety will now be worth 3 instead of 2
* We have decided to add a small amount of points for yards allowed. We can agree that scoring against does not always reflect how well the defense has played. After checking many sites and old boxscores and spending a LOT of time with scenarios and averages, here is what we've come up with:
yds points
0-149 3.5
150-174 3.0
175-199 2.5
200-224 2.0
225-249 1.5
250-274 1.0
275-299 .5
300-350 0
351-375 -.5
376-400 -1.0
401-425 -1.5
426-450 -2.0
451-475 -2.5
476-500 -3.0
501+ -3.5
Basically, most of the teams year avg fall in the 300-350 range. Because we've made the ranges so small +/- 3.5 pts, we will not change the other totals for points scored.
We want to run some other numbers on this range, but we expect to make this final this weekend.
Other notable decisions:
* Keeper List will be due by Noon ET on July 23. If you do not have your list to us by then, we will choose your keepers for you. You have over 10 days to think about who you want to keep. We will have a place for you to post your official keepers by the end of this weekend.
* The draft will begin on July 30th. It will be a slow draft on these boards and via e-mail. We will start with a 24 hr rule between the hours of 8am-midnight ET. You may pick outside of these times but we won't let you be skipped if your time comes up outside of these times. We have the right to adjust this rule at ANY time--though we will give fair warning. If a person has been skipped once before, that person will NOT get the full time allotted the following turn to pick (perhaps 1/2 the time). If this draft takes too long, we will take great steps to speed it up. Please work with us to allow the draft to work it's magic and for us to not have to intervene.
Lastly, we want to thank Doug for his yardage allowed suggestion and his work that went into it and to StL Cards for sitting in with us tonight.
We will allow input on the points for yards allowed since that is something new. Again, we expect to make this final this weekend and create a place to list keepers and continued draft discussion.
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| 30 | Doug
Sustainer
ID: 45659120
Sat, Jul 12, 2003, 02:00
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Thanks for the feedback and keeping an open mind to the yardage-adjustment proposal. There seem to be two major changes between this and the initial proposal:
1) More granualar... adjusting a half point every 25 yards rather than a full point every 50... looks good to me... probably would have proposed that myself in the first place but wanted to keep it as simple as possible while under discussion. Good call, I totally support it.
2) Less adjustment at the extremes (0-149 and 501+)... personally, I like giving an extreme performace a more extreme score (to reflect how rare such a performance is). On the other hand, I think this adjustment addresses the concerns that some folks had about making a "great day greater" and a "worse day worse" by keeping the yardage adjustments to a 3.5 point maximum (and again, only in pretty rare cases). Given that we aren't modifying the points allowed system (which I think is good), I think this is an excellent compromise.
Great work guys, I hope everyone will take a look at this and embrace it!
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| 31 | Doug
Sustainer
ID: 45659120
Sat, Jul 12, 2003, 02:07
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One quick question, Ref... in post 5 you referred to the site adding -2 for special teams fumbles... is that definitely a change we are making as well (or is it even an option)? Also, if I have a RB/WR who makes a fumble during an ST play, does it also count his individual score (as well as against team D/ST)? Thanks...
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| 32 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Sat, Jul 12, 2003, 02:37
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Doug, when doing research, we never found an instance of 149 yds or less though I did find a 157. I'm sure there are some but we had to go through every box score so we just sampled. Also didn't want to adjust the other points. This seems to work, but open to discussion. Thanks again for your suggestion.
The CBS site has included ST fumbles this year automatcially. This is not something that we've changed ourselves but would have if we could. So yes, there is -2 for ST fumbles.
Since we use tenths of points, it makes sense to use half point graduations like we do in FGs. We actually found the average (0 point) and went 25 yds at a time each way until it got to 150. This way we do incorporate yds allowed but don't kill a bad defensive week too much worse or help a good week too much. 7 pt difference is the max though avg should be 0.
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| 33 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Sat, Jul 12, 2003, 02:39
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The site lists fumbles like this:
Misc. Offense
Fumble Lost, Including ST plays: -2 Points
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| 34 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Sat, Jul 12, 2003, 02:54
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While putting in the values, CBS only allowed me 8 ranges for the yds allowed, so may have to tweak it still. I really like what I've listed earlier so may try to get a hole of CBS again Sat.
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| 35 | rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 461124288
Sat, Jul 12, 2003, 10:18
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Ref, I found a way to get the entire yards allowed ranges into the data base. No changes needed.
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| 36 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Sat, Jul 12, 2003, 15:12
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rfs, I don't know how you did that, but thanks. Was on AIM with StL Cards past 3 am ET working on it (and other league issues), so much obliged.
Also want to note that those of you in our hoops and baseball leagues know that there is rarely a time where we will veto a trade. While that is still true in football for the most part, due to the nature of the short season and bye weeks, there is a greater chance of it happening in this league. That's why we have gone so deep and even allow the league to vote on a veto from the commissioners. While uneven trades will NOT be the basis of a veto (by the very nature of this league we expect uneven trades to occur), there may be a time where a veto may occur due to the integrity of the league as highlighted in our constitution.
Not many enjoys trading more than me, but for example if you trade Garcia for Priest and then turn around and trade them back to get around their bye weeks, the 2nd request will be vetoed. You can be creative to cover bye weeks w/o having a prearranged agreement to trade them right back. Have fun, be creative, trade all you want, but don't try something like this. No one has, but our league pretty much forces trading to be the most competitive every single week.
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| 37 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Mon, Jul 14, 2003, 10:47
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These rules have now been implemented.
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| 38 | StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 133252814
Tue, Jul 29, 2003, 14:59
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I was looking at the draft order as posted on the "league rules" and I'm not sure why SF (my team) is shown having the last draft pick, as I am quite sure I did not come in first in the regular season (nor the playoffs for that matter).
If I was sleeping and missed something I appologize. I looked for the final regular season standings on the site, but couldn't find them.
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| 39 | APerfect10
Leader
ID: 535572315
Tue, Jul 29, 2003, 15:31
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I'm 100% sure that draft order is incorrect. However, I'd like to know where the correct draft order is? I'm prepared, but with the draft starting tomorrow, it'd be nice to have a little time to see my draft position! :)
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| 40 | rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 27652109
Tue, Jul 29, 2003, 16:30
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I might have err'd! I will post it correctly later tonight. I think anyone can get it off the site. It's reverse order or last years final REGULAR SEASON standings (with points for being the tie breaker)
Sorry guys, I'm just buried at work.....
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| 41 | rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 27652109
Tue, Jul 29, 2003, 16:31
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OH! I think the draft order on "league rules" is probably last year's randomly selected order.... FYI
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| 42 | CanEHdian Pride
Donor
ID: 48936413
Tue, Jul 29, 2003, 17:45
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Draft Order - Post 109
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Post a reply to this message: (But first, how about checking out this sponsor?)
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