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Subject: NoQuitters Year Two Keeper Discussion
Posted by: Shelby-villian
- [17641517] Thu, Jul 15, 2004, 18:08
I have a QB for trade. Bulger or Culpepper. Anyone interested? |
| 1 | Shelby-villian
ID: 17641517
Tue, Jul 20, 2004, 18:57
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* Owners will declare their 8 keepers before 12AM Aug 1st. If keeper list is not submitted, the team will forfeit draft picks in the current draft round until the list is proposed. All players on team will be protected until list is proposed.
* Like professional sport leagues, draft order is NOT serpentine. #1 pick will get #13 pick, etc.
* Owners will have a set amount of time to make their pick depending on their phase designation. All managers begin with phase I designation, as they miss deadlines, the phase will increment.
phase I- 24 hours to pick player
phase II- 18 hours to pick player
phase III- 12 hours to pick player
phase IV- 6 hours to pick player
phase V and higher- 6 hours to pick player and loss of subsequent draft pick
* Owners may use other owners to draft by proxy.
* You may draft *any* player, even someone unsigned. But you must keep a spot empty in your team for that player throughout the entire season. Violators of this rule will be penalized by taking away 2005 draft picks at the discretion of the commish.
* If a manager makes an invalid (already picked or keeper protected) player, that manager will need to make a replacement pick at a time of his earliest choosing of players available at that moment- *retroactive picks are strictly disallowed!*. A manager has sole responsiblity of making valid picks- no bitching.
VERY IMPORTANT- Before making picks, managers must use ctrl-F (find) and search for their proposed picks to double check you do not make an invalid pick. Please, please do this for all your picks as this is a major concern.
I will be posting full keeper lists when draft begins.
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| 2 | Kar Jackers
ID: 576472921
Thu, Jul 29, 2004, 22:54
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Any idea when the draft will start?
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| 3 | Shelby-villian
ID: 58243810
Sun, Aug 01, 2004, 23:57
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Draft has just started.
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| 4 | wizard
ID: 5740120
Mon, Aug 02, 2004, 07:16
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thought this might be useful to have here...
12 Shelby-villians
11 NJ Kar Jackers II
10 Blizzard
9 Stuck60
8 HeHateMe
7 jonny blaze
6 cletus & the yokels
5 Shockey Whore
4 Lonewolff
3 wiggs
2 Durham Bulls
1 kid westside
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| 5 | skinneej
Leader
ID: 40625911
Mon, Aug 02, 2004, 09:20
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Wow, I didn't realize the draft started so soon. I have not had a chance yet to look at which players were not kept and at the rookies. I guess I have about 13 hours to figure it out and I have a final to take tonight. I'll be interested in listening to any offers for the 1st pick, so send an e-mail to the above address if you want to discuss an offer. My main foucus in trading is to acquire a top wr for the 1st pick so let's here what you have to offer.
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| 6 | skinneej
Leader
ID: 40625911
Mon, Aug 02, 2004, 10:40
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Actually, after looking over things abit, I must request a hold to the draft. There are some glaring issues that need to be addressed. I don't know if return yards were added this year, but at 1 point per yard gained of return yards a player like JJ Moses who did not catch one pass or rush for one attempt for Houston has more fantasy value than player such as Donald Driver, Ashley Lelie, Donte Stallworth, and Corey Dillon to name a few. I would suggest that at a maximum it should be .5 per yard but maybe less. I understand the desire to add value to players that also return kicks, but to make a specialist more valuable than a starter is absurd. Anyway, besides that and the fact that QBs, RBs and Def are probably overvalued (or are wrs, te, and k undervalued?) I should be ready to make a pick when the scoring is corrected, unless I get a good offer between now and midnight.
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| 7 | ScientificLee
ID: 326233016
Mon, Aug 02, 2004, 11:49
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I haven't done the math to verify if what you wrote is true or not, but I have little reason not to believe you. But even if that is the case, all of us have selected their keepers with access to the current scoring structure. Even if someone hasn't used the information, the information was available and it would be unfair to penalize managers that were attentive and used all information available.
I vote to keep the scoring system as it is.
Kar Jackers
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| 8 | Slackjawed Yokel
Leader
ID: 52347519
Mon, Aug 02, 2004, 12:08
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last year return yards was not a stat. but return touchdowns was.
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| 9 | skinneej
Leader
ID: 40625911
Mon, Aug 02, 2004, 13:07
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Kar Jackers, I understand your point and have to agree with you to a point. I really suggest that we fix any and all of the scoring deficiencies and let managers decide whther they want to change any of their keepers before we start the draft. I feel that some time is necessary anyway between declaration of keepers and the supplemental draft so that each manager can assess what each team needs and work on trades.
As it stands now, I would not want to play in a league where a player that only returns kicks is more valuable that many starting wr and rb. Who wants to watch games hoping that gets to return a kick and that the opponent doesn't kick away from them? Besides, my fantasy sources do not have kick returner cheat sheets! ;)
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| 10 | skinneej
Leader
ID: 40625911
Mon, Aug 02, 2004, 13:58
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Here are some other observations now that I have completed my review of the league scoring (caveat this is using this year's current scoring with the return yards skewed):
Of the top 100 offensive players last season, there were 37 wr, 36 rb, 26 qb and 1 te. There were no kickers in the top 100. Of the defenses, 24 of the 32 scored higher than the 100th ranked offensive player based on fantasy points.
Here are the average fantasy points per player for the positions based on the top 100:
qb: 3473
rb: 3250
wr: 2716
te: 1141
k: 978
def: 2426
Based on these numbers, there is no question why so few te and kickers were kept. Also, the difference between the top 5 starters and the last 5 starters is greatest for rbs and lowest for kickers.
Anyway, thought I would share in case anyone thought other stats should be adjusted.
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| 11 | Shelby-villian
ID: 17641517
Mon, Aug 02, 2004, 14:48
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Good points Jedi but I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Our regular league last year also had a near same scoring system (with kick return yards) and no one complained nor did I see any abuses within the system. I actually forgot to add in KR yards to the keeper league last year so I corrected the oversight this year. The reason KR yards were added is to give a little more value to the WR position (in relation to the RB, I wanted the average point totals closer). KR does not affect any of the elite receiving scoring (with maybe the exception of Dante Hall and even then his year was a fluke).
It does give value to guys like JJ Moses, like you pointed out, but if it beats guys like Driver, Dillon, and other failures from last year, it does not matter since those managers starting those players were going to lose anyway. So even if you had a "value" pick like JJ Moses on your team it would still not make a difference. Starting JJ Moses would be like starting Lelie and not many managers even played Lelie. Get my point?
Kickers were of course made weak for a purpose. Football strategy guides all call for drafting kickers with your last or 2nd to last pick- there is a reason why. It would be silly to increase the kicker point values just so they become keep-worthy. And some managers kept kickers so I don't see what the problem is.
TEs are weak b/c it is a weak position. There is nothing you can do with the scoring system to make them better without making WR better too. This is how it is with all scoring systems. Managers also kept TE's too.
Defenses are traditionally weaker too in most scoring systems. I actually made them stronger and more valuable.
Jedi, I think your claims that the scoring system is deficient is mostly without merit. Considering that our regular league (which you were part of) last year was a success and it used a near indentical scoring system shows that it has balance and at the same time, is a bit different from most league scoring, which was my purpose.
If this year, managers start using 3 KRs and such, and there is an obvious loophole within the rules, we will deal with the scoring in the offseason. Until then, the scoring system will stay the same and I am confident it will be fair and just and at the same time, different and refreshing.
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| 12 | skinneej
Leader
ID: 40625911
Mon, Aug 02, 2004, 15:19
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Shelby, thanks for the reply. Post 10 was really just my observations from looking at the scoring in depth. I was not really proposing changes to any other stats besides return yards. You are right that kickers and TE are usually the lowest scoring positions and I don't see any reason to adjust them. The diff between the averages of qbs, rbs and wrs is probably not enough to warrant tweaking anything there. The defensive numbers may be a little high as I tend to think of them along the lines of kickers and tight ends, but everyone is in the same boat there.
I know that we used ret yards in our other league last year, I guess I just didn't realize the impact until looking at a season of stats. I mean, I never thought I should be scouting players like Josh Scobey, JJ Moses and Reggie Swinton. Also, I don't consider players like Eric Moulds, Jimmy Smith, Joey Galloway, Terry Glenn, Todd Heap or many others to be "failures", but they are based on your statement since they all scored less than Scobey. I really think return yards is a mountain (and not a molehill) and should be cut in half at least. That way a true specialist like Scobey would have value similar to a Mike Anderson or Brian Finneran, probably where he belongs.
Anyway, I'm still considering and countering some offers for the #1 pick. What I really would like is to get a quality wr and move down several picks in the first round. Remember this is a keeper so there are some franchise type players that are available to be drafted at #1.
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| 13 | skinneej
Leader
ID: 40625911
Tue, Aug 03, 2004, 00:36
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Well, since it is coming up on the deadline for my pick, and I have not heard back from two managers on potential trades for this pick, I will go ahead and make it. The other trade offers do not affect this pick, so I will work them tomorrow for the other teams. I wanted to move down several picks since I felt I could upgrade a position and still get a quality player. That hasn't worked out in this short time frame, so my pick comes down to 5 players. Either I grab someone that I think can help me right away or get the can't miss prospect. I will still consider trading the player that I chose if i can improve my team, so once I make the pick let's keep talking if you are interested. Well, the time has come...I have made my decision and it is.......without further delay...........check the draft thread to find out!
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| 14 | Shelby-villian
ID: 17641517
Tue, Aug 03, 2004, 01:19
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Interesting pick. A work in progress of course. Giants gave up loads for him so he has got to be that good....
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| 15 | Astade
ID: 40719221
Tue, Aug 03, 2004, 08:16
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Shelby,
E-mail sent to you. Please try to read it this morning if you get the chance.
...Not ready to draft yet.
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| 16 | skinneej
Leader
ID: 40625911
Tue, Aug 03, 2004, 10:20
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Well, this pick came down to what was best for this franchise. I wanted to trade down and grab a player that would help me more this year, but of the high impact/franchise type rookies that came out of the NFL draft, I felt Eli was the sure bet and therfore the lowest risk to this team. With more time I probably would have traded this pick, but he is still available for the right combination of players and picks. Even if I keep him, I would not be surprised if he plays better this year than most people are expecting even with Warner in town and ends up the starter by next season.
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| 17 | Shelby-villian
ID: 17641517
Tue, Aug 03, 2004, 13:29
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astade, email sent.
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| 18 | Birdman
ID: 58243810
Tue, Aug 03, 2004, 22:50
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Before I make my pick I want to say that 5th pick sucks.
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| 19 | Lonewolff
ID: 516411010
Wed, Aug 04, 2004, 00:36
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I want to say that I'm just happy that I got Fitzgerald, because as a Cardinal fan, there isn't much else to cheer for.
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| 20 | Lonewolff
ID: 516411010
Wed, Aug 04, 2004, 00:37
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Dumb question: how do you guys BOLD your picks?
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| 21 | skinneej
Leader
ID: 40625911
Wed, Aug 04, 2004, 11:08
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Nice pick in Fitzgerald. He was #2 on my list and I really wanted to take him seeing as how I am weak at the wr position, but in the end I felt Manning was just a surer bet. Now watch Fitzgerald be a superstar.
The html code for bolding is [b]text to be bolded[/b]. The [ ] brackets must be replaced with < > to show properly. Similarly, to italicize or underline use i or u instead of b. That is pretty much what I know off the top of my head. I bought a html code book several years ago, but for anything else I have to look it up!
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| 22 | Lonewolff
ID: 50732410
Wed, Aug 04, 2004, 11:35
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test
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| 23 | Shelby-villian
ID: 17641517
Wed, Aug 04, 2004, 13:36
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Karjackers- can you delete your incomplete player listing in the draft thread? thanks.
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| 24 | skinneej
Leader
ID: 40625911
Wed, Aug 04, 2004, 14:04
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BTW, if you are looking for Reggie Wayne on the list I posted, I transposed his name backwards so he is sorted by reggie instead of wayne. If you do a Ctrl-F to search for a name then it is not an issue.
Shelby, since the other football league has not drafted, can we reduce the return yard points. I would rather have slightly different scoring anyway like the baseball leagues being different. Anything else that may want to be discussed or adjusted could be done as well so that everyone knows how to set the draft rankings as we get closer.
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| 25 | ScientificLee
ID: 326233016
Wed, Aug 04, 2004, 14:24
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Deleted
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| 26 | Shelby-villian
ID: 17641517
Wed, Aug 04, 2004, 17:34
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Just for Jedi I will move it down to .5 pts for yard. I am going to make everything else exactly like the keeper league, so LMK if anything else bothers anyone.
Thanks to everyone for moving the draft along. We are making great progress.
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| 27 | skinneej
Leader
ID: 40625911
Thu, Aug 05, 2004, 11:20
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Ah, shucks just for me. ;)
Actually, this subject came up in another keeper league in the last few days and was discussed to a further extent. I think some of their observations are important. Equating receiving yards to return yards is not only not balanced, but skewed in favor of returners. Here's why. On kick returns the average return is 20-25 yrds. Esentially, these are free yards with no opposition to stop them. A wr has to not only beat his man, but find a space in the defense just to catch a ball, then do his best to struggle for a few extra yards. At best he might average 10-12 yrds per catch. It takes a wr catching 10 passes in a game to equate what a returner can do in 5 returns. And that doesn't even count punt returns. No wonder some pretty good wr don't measure up against the return specialist.
Thus, the proposal in that league was to count all return yards b/t .1 and .3 points per yard (we haven't made a decision yet). I can live with .5 as Shelby has now changed in the other league (thanks again!) Since it is too late for this season, I think we should seriously look to reduce the impact for next season if not decide to do it now so everyone has a headsup for next season. As usual, my .02. ;)
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| 28 | Shelby-villian
ID: 17641517
Thu, Aug 05, 2004, 13:06
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But what you are not getting is that on a fantasy game impact level, it does not change game balance. No one is going to start 3 KRs on their team, or start drafting KRs before Corey Dillon.
You will find that as the season progresses with the exception of one or two KR (who happen to be the best at their position), it will be a non issue.
So if the 1 or 2 best KRs happen to make it onto a fantasy squad, I say good for those guys. They deserve it for being that good at what they do.
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| 29 | Shelby-villian
ID: 17641517
Thu, Aug 05, 2004, 14:04
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I do want to mention, that 0.5 pts/yd is perfectly reasonable and would be good compromise to make all parties happy.
I'm just arguing the fact that 1.0 pts/yd is not as critical as Jedi makes it seem.
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| 30 | Shelby-villian
ID: 17641517
Sat, Aug 07, 2004, 13:33
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Ouch! Lonewolff's 2nd round pick just got injured for maybe 2 months. Tough luck...
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| 31 | skinneej
Leader
ID: 040625911
Sat, Aug 07, 2004, 21:21
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I believe Yokels is now on the clock and Shocky moves into phase II, or did we allow some lattitude for weekends. I'm around most of the time, so feel free to send a draft queue to me in case you might miss your turn.
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| 32 | Shelby-villian
ID: 17641517
Sat, Aug 07, 2004, 21:37
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Yes, Shockey has missed the deadline. Yokels is on the deadline since 8:20 PM.
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| 33 | Lonewolff
ID: 516411010
Sun, Aug 08, 2004, 08:24
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Yeah, I heard the news yesterday afternoon about Shipp. They said if he still has 6 weeks of recovery when the season starts, they'll just put him on IR for the year. We should have started the draft a little slower!
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| 34 | Shelby-villian
ID: 17641517
Mon, Aug 09, 2004, 16:10
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I accidently posted my pick under my bro's name, so I deleted the message. Hence the skip in post #s. FYI.
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| 35 | HeHateMe
ID: 17641517
Mon, Aug 09, 2004, 23:59
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odd, i never knew shelby had a brother....i thought he was adopted
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| 36 | Astade
ID: 40719221
Wed, Aug 11, 2004, 02:08
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Can't believe I took a kicker. Good Night!!!
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| 37 | skinneej
Leader
ID: 40625911
Wed, Aug 11, 2004, 09:44
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Stallworth is one of Lonewolf's keepers. Wiggs needs to chose a replacement. The next pick is on the clock.
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| 38 | Birdman
ID: 58243810
Wed, Aug 11, 2004, 12:10
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WIGGS
Staley was picked.
To EVERYONE:
PLEASE USE CTRL+F (find function) TO SEE IF A PLAYER WAS TAKEN.
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| 39 | Shelby
ID: 17641517
Wed, Aug 11, 2004, 12:38
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Hehe, its not a true slow draft until someone picks a duplicate.
wiggs, can you delete your bogus picks when you make your new pick. thanks.
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| 40 | wiggs
ID: 52731616
Wed, Aug 11, 2004, 15:59
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Sorry guys, I have a lot going on right now and I am trying to make my picks as quick as possible. I apologize.
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| 41 | Shelby
ID: 17641517
Wed, Aug 11, 2004, 16:11
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No biggie, season starts in a month anyway. Thanks for checking in frequently.
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| 42 | Shelby
ID: 37511120
Wed, Aug 11, 2004, 22:31
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This message is for the REGULAR football league. Settings/draft time finalized. Please check if anything a problem. Also if you haven't joined, please do so. Spots are not guaranteed anymore.
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| 43 | Lonewolff
ID: 516411010
Wed, Aug 11, 2004, 23:54
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Shelby, did I miss the memo? What is the league number and password?
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| 44 | Shelby
ID: 17641517
Thu, Aug 12, 2004, 01:52
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wolff- you can find the info on our baseball league. message #36
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| 45 | Shelby
ID: 17641517
Thu, Aug 12, 2004, 19:22
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I believe Shockey has missed his 2nd deadline for 7pm. Team Shockey has entered phase III and Yokels is on the clock.
Shockey, if you are going to have problems drafting within 12 hours, leave proxy picks with lonewolff so he can make them immediately after his pick.
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| 46 | skinneej
Leader
ID: 040625911
Fri, Aug 13, 2004, 01:36
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Where are you guys at? I expected to make my next pick before I leave in the morning, but now it is obvious that will not happen. Shockey or Yokels please make a pick so I can shorten my queue. ;) I am really surprised that no one has taken advantage of the missed deadlines or duplicate picks yet. In most leagues when the door is opened like that, many picks go off quickly befor the skipped picks can be posted. Anyway, I will be gone until Monday evening so I will email my proxy to someone. Lonewolff, you had the last pick as of now, so I am sending you my list. Hope you check your e-mail. Later.
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| 47 | Lonewolff
ID: 516411010
Fri, Aug 13, 2004, 02:00
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Got ya covered Jedi.
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| 48 | Shelby
ID: 17641517
Fri, Aug 13, 2004, 14:18
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I got Shockey's pick. Yokels has until 7pm for his pick, then Blaze is up. Speed it up people.
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| 49 | wiggs
ID: 52731616
Fri, Aug 13, 2004, 16:10
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i could be in big trouble if we dont get this thing moving. I am going away for a week on sunday night. I can try to leave a queue, but i dont know how long it will have to be.
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| 50 | Shelby
ID: 17641517
Fri, Aug 13, 2004, 22:55
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Yokels is in phase II. Blaze has until 7pm to pick.
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| 51 | wiggs
ID: 25731148
Sun, Aug 15, 2004, 00:33
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I am going away for a week starting tomorrow night. Will anyone be around to take a queue. With the speed this draft is going i should only miss 1 round, but I will leave enough for 2 rounds.
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| 52 | Shelby
ID: 37511120
Sun, Aug 15, 2004, 01:16
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I'll take it. If you wish send your picks in batches of 5 players and I will only open them if all players from the current batch are taken.
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| 53 | wiggs
ID: 2739159
Sun, Aug 15, 2004, 10:49
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sent shelby. 2 rounds worth. That shuold be good for a couple days. Thanks man.
wiggs
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| 54 | Slackjawed Yokel
Leader
ID: 052347519
Mon, Aug 16, 2004, 03:25
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sorry guys, I was out of town since Thursday morning. I was hoping it would get to me before I left, but when it didn't I sent a queue to J.
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| 56 | Shelby
ID: 17641517
Mon, Aug 16, 2004, 15:12
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Man, Round 3 has been murder for the Shelby's. Watching my picks taken one after another...
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| 57 | wizard
ID: 477171212
Mon, Aug 16, 2004, 15:43
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i seem to be stockpiling RBs.
gonna be willing to trade at least one depending on how all these position battles shake out.
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| 58 | skinneej
Leader
ID: 040625911
Mon, Aug 16, 2004, 18:49
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Lonewolff, I sent you an e-mail. I made it back into town just now so I'll be able to make my pick. Thanks for taking my proxy while I was gone. I need to look over things abit since I haven't had time to look at the recent games. I'll try to get a pick in sometime tonight.
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| 59 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Mon, Aug 16, 2004, 18:51
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OT OT OT---
Sorry to intrude guys. Skinneej I saw you just posted and we only have 1 day to declare keepers in G24 and I would like to try to make a deal. Sent you an offer to the e-mail address on the G24 website.
Thanks,
THK
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| 60 | skinneej
Leader
ID: 040625911
Mon, Aug 16, 2004, 21:14
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THK, e-mail sent.
Well, I didn't see anything earth shattering that happend over the weekend, so stuck to my intended pick. Philly D is expected to be top 5 so thought it was time to grab them. Of course, you know how these preseason rankings usually go.
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| 61 | Shelby
ID: 17641517
Mon, Aug 16, 2004, 21:42
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Hmm well I wanted to start a run on D in the 3rd round with my Miami pick. Didn't really materialize though.
Considering the importance of D in our league, Philly D is a bargain at 4.1 IMHO.
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| 62 | Astade
ID: 40719221
Thu, Aug 19, 2004, 01:13
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I will probably be away from a pc over the weekend. Would anyone take a potential draft list?
Thanks in advance.
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| 63 | Shelby
ID: 17641517
Thu, Aug 19, 2004, 03:58
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Send it here. Read post 52 on the format.
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| 64 | Birdman
ID: 58243810
Fri, Aug 20, 2004, 12:12
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How many more rounds?
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| 65 | Shelby
ID: 55730520
Fri, Aug 20, 2004, 18:03
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7 total rounds.
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| 66 | Lonewolff
ID: 516411010
Sun, Aug 22, 2004, 21:24
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Nice to see two of my top three RBs are out for the year (Buckhalter/Shipp).
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| 67 | skinneej
Leader
ID: 040625911
Sun, Aug 22, 2004, 22:07
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Lonewolff, I saw the play that he got hurt on and when his knee buckled, even though it didn't look all that bad, I thought man there goes somebody's team. Then I saw it was yours, man that sucks. At least you got Dunn, who is looking good this preseason and could be better than either Buckhalter or Shipp as it turns out.
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| 68 | wiggs
ID: 2739159
Mon, Aug 23, 2004, 10:33
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shelby, I am back, Thank you for picking for me.
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| 69 | Birdman
ID: 58243810
Mon, Aug 23, 2004, 16:24
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Dorsey Levens isn't listed, but he soon will be, so if the draft is finished before he is added, just use a proxy. thanks shelby.
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| 70 | Shelby
ID: 17641517
Mon, Aug 23, 2004, 17:40
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No problem.
Draft order set in our regular league- anyone interested in #2 pick?
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| 71 | skinneej
Leader
ID: 40625911
Wed, Aug 25, 2004, 12:15
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Can we get this thing moving? Blaze should have made a pick by midnight last night so now HeHateMe has been on the clock for 12 hours. Shelby, do you not have a proxy for your bro?
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| 72 | skinneej
Leader
ID: 040625911
Fri, Aug 27, 2004, 00:50
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Hello??? Anyone still doing a draft here? Wiz has missed deadline now so someone please pick. I'll go ahead and make my next pick if that helps. I was just a few picks away on Monday and then everyone started taking 24+ hours to pick. I think half the league is in Phase II now. Anyway, if my pick does not come up before noon tomorrow I'll have to leave another proxy.
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| 73 | blizzard
ID: 547252312
Fri, Aug 27, 2004, 11:46
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Im goin ahead with my pick, its been 24 hours since the last pick. hope everyone agrees with and lets get the draft done. I want to do some trading.
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| 74 | wizard
ID: 477171212
Fri, Aug 27, 2004, 19:36
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sorry everyone... i had to take care of something that came up suddenly. hope i didn't hold things up too badly.... and shelby, i haven't even had time to check my email to see if you proposed anything... sorry again.
anyway, i'm back and good to go now.
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| 75 | Birdman
ID: 58243810
Sat, Aug 28, 2004, 12:57
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If it's over 24 hours from the last pick, please go ahead and make your selection. I'm dure Diddy and Shelby would agree.
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| 76 | Shelby
ID: 17641517
Sat, Aug 28, 2004, 15:17
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It's too late to assign phases at this point. Can we get 23 picks done by this week? That will give us a couple days to maneuver our team.
Check the message board once per day! That's not so hard... Let's get this done.
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| 77 | wiggs
ID: 507593021
Tue, Aug 31, 2004, 22:10
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was that my last pick?
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| 78 | Astade
ID: 1873256
Wed, Sep 01, 2004, 00:13
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i believe so.
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| 79 | Birdman
ID: 58243810
Wed, Sep 01, 2004, 11:43
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Good Draft Folks.
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| 80 | Shelby
ID: 17641517
Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 20:05
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2004 Draft has officially concluded. LMK on yahoo board if there are any draft mistakes.
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Post a reply to this message: (But first, how about checking out this sponsor?)
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