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Sports Challenge     CBS Sportsline     Fanball Commissioner     Sandbox     Yahoo Football     Yahoo Football Plus     Yahoo Survival Football     TX- Football 0 Subject: Survivor VI Posted by: RBP - [2962315] Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 05:33 A new day, a new week, a new thread. 1 Edneck       ID: 115222815       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 08:55 I'd just like to say it's been a pleasure discussing football with most of you Boys and it's almost time to prove your theories and Big Talk. May the best man win, wait I'll change that since I never win and say May the Luckest SOB win. 2 Shak       ID: 481029813       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 10:55 GCobb, I also noticed that the Texans had given DD a 5-year contract extension. Although it was a 5-year extension, only $5M was upfront. The Texans will take a relatively minor hit on their cap for this season, as DD will still draw the league minimum for a 3rd year player. Does this contract mean the Texans are convinced that DD will be their RB for the next five years? I'm not so sure. Why did they draft Morency, when they had talented backups in Hollings and Wells? All reports are that Morency is very talented and was a steal in the 3rd round. Keep in mind that DD was in his contract year and he had two very productive years. The Texans rewarded him and have him locked up for 5 years at a relatively cap-friendly price for a starting RB. This puts them in a good position to trade him if Morency or Hollings prove to be more talented. I had DD on my survivor team last year and I'm grateful that he had a great year, but I just don't see him as an elite back -- and I don't think the Texans do either, otherwise they wouldn't have drafted Morency. 3 Shak       ID: 481029813       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 11:42 Since we have so many knowledgeable (and opinionated) FFl'ers here, please give me your two centavos on this trade offer. This is in an Antsports keeper league, where you can keep three players, but must forfeit a draft pick two rounds higher than the player's draft position the previous year. Here are the players I currently have that I can keep: Player/forfeited draft pick/average draft position J. Walker/7.10/3.6 D. Foster/8.12/5.3 Randle El/16.12/13.2 Brees/10.12/9.1 I was offered a trade involving L. Suggs. Suggs/10.12/6.8 Here's the trade offer: give up 5.10 and 10.12 receive 7.4 and 11.4 Worth it? Drawback is if I accepted the trade, I would have pull another trade to get a 10th rounder back or else Suggs would cost me 9.1. 4 GCobb       ID: 387201918       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 11:45 Shak -- I'm certainly not saying he's an elite back along the same lines as an Edgerrin James or Shaun Alexander. He's a very good back with versatility being his strength. I didn't pay too much attention to the bonus and terms, just that they tore up his original contract and gave him a newer and more lucrative one. Anytime a team tears up a contract and rewards a player with a new one when they don't have to, that says something to me. NFL teams (like Philly) would rather give away the family jewels than do that. I just doesn't happen often. As for Morency, I think most teams like plenty of depth in the backfield (especially a defense/run-oriented head coach like Capers) and I wouldn't read much into the Texans drafting him as far as Davis is concerned. Hollings hasn't shown anything but a propensity to be injured so far. Wells is good. Take the Cowboys as an example. They have Julius Jones and still drafted Marion Barber in the 4th and then signed Anthony Thomas to boot. It's all about depth. I don't consider Morency a steal in the 3rd round. I saw him play a number of times for OSU and he's along the same lines as Wells. He's a solid, hard-nosed runner who lacks elite skills. He could turn out to be another D. Davis or he could turn out to be just a guy. 5 Shak       ID: 481029813       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 11:54 If anyone is interested in joining that Antsports league ($100 entry), there is an immediate opening that won't last long. It looks like there's one very good keeper and one iffy keeper on this team right now: Steve Smith/9.3/4.9 D. Driver/6.10/5.11 Let me know soonest if interested. 6 Shak       ID: 481029813       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 12:11 GC, I think it's quite common for teams to reward their younger players to contract extensions while they are in their contract year. If TO was in his contract year, I'm sure Philly would be trying to negotiate a contract extension -- it just makes good business sense. As for Morency, I have to confess I didn't follow his college career, so I can only go on what I read. This from the Houston Chronicle: They were simply thrilled he was still available when it was time to make their third-round selection. Though Morency only started one season at Oklahoma State, the Texans saw a player with the potential to give them a potent running game when teamed with Domanick Davis. "He's got exceptional quickness," Texans offensive coordinator Chris Palmer said. "He cuts very, very well, and he goes from point A to point B very, very rapidly. I wouldn't say he's a home-run hitter, but he's going to have a lot of 15 to 20-yard plays. and He's tough, strong and durable. He also has quick feet. Several teams have predicted that he'll be the Texans' most surprising rookie and perhaps one of the NFL's biggest surprises. Since last weekend's draft, two teams have told us they had Morency ranked among their top three running backs. Those teams say they had the four best backs — including Cedric Benson, Ronnie Brown and Cadillac Williams — grouped tightly together but that Morency was third on both of their boards. One had Benson fourth, and another had Brown fourth. If you say he's the same as Wells, I guess only time will tell. 7 Edneck       ID: 115222815       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 14:14 I think Davis is similair to CMart in that they both are excellent recievers, Davis not as good a runner, but he always gets positive yards. Both seem to not get much respect due to being steady rather then Sexy as "G" would say. We have been waiting for Wells and Hollings to take over for two years now and D. Davis has held them off and became a Fantasy Star. Morency I know nothing about, but he would scare me down the road a little, but for this year I'm more worried about Hollings then Morency! As far as the future, he may not lead them to the promise land, but I think Houston is paying him to be the man for at least the next few years. I'm not worried about his stats, unless he gets hurt. The man just gains yards, and you can't ask much more then that. 8 Shak       ID: 481029813       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 14:50 Yes, he does gain yards -- at almost 4 yards a carry! Based purely on talent, I think he is in the bottom fourth of NFL starting RBs. By that I mean he would be the starting RB for seven other teams or less. Can anyone name eight teams that would start DD over their current RB? 9 Edneck       ID: 115222815       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 15:48 SF, Ariz, Jack, Pitt, Cleve, ATL, TB, CHic, Tenn, LAR. I guess that's ten. No one said he would churn out 4.5-5.yards a carry. He's consistent and yeah he's not going to break many long ones, but he's an above average running back in the NFL. Your saying Houston signed a running back to a 5-year contract because he wouldn't start on 3/4 of the teams in the NFL. I think that at least means a commitment to him as part of their future plans. You can pass on him, I got him rated in the top 12 backs and he will be a fantasy gem. 10 GCobb       ID: 387201918       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 16:02 Shak - You're making my point for me by comparing D. Davis to T.O. It's pretty obvious the Texans think very highly of him. As far as extending young players being routine, I don't have numbers or anything like that, but right off the top of my head, the Seahwaks didn't extend S. Alexander, Portis was traded because he wanted an extension, Westbrook (until today) was holding out over one, and Edgerrin James still hasn't been able to secure a contract extension. Not sure if Deuce's contract was up or if this was his final year. I'm sure there are many examples where players were extended early but I think teams are very selective when doing so and usually limit it to their star QBs and DEs. RBs are essentially a dime a dozen anymore, even the really good ones. Morency might end up being a star. Hard to say with RBs. The fact that he lasted until the 3rd round says most NFL teams don't think he will. The ones with star potential (in the eyes of the NFL) go in the 1st and early 2nd. Like you say, time will tell. 11 Edneck       ID: 115222815       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 16:21 I mean DD is no Tomlinson, but his combined stats from last year are almost the same. DD=1776, Td's, 14, LT=1776 with 18 TD's and DD had 16 more catches? I know when you watch him, bells and whistles dont not start chimming. You can't argue with the stats. I had LT last year and If not for his TD's he would have been ranked out of the top ten backs? Hey, Nothing is for certain in the NFL and surely you don't believe the best player is always on the field..money plays it's part on some NFL teams. 12 Shak       ID: 481029813       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 16:24 Ed, you are really stretching it! If you are talking about better fantasy potential for this year, maybe, but he's not better than the starting RBs for those teams. I agree with SF, and maybe Cleveland. I disagree with: Arizona -- Arrington will be better, but you could make an argument, I guess. Jacksonville -- Fred Taylor is clearly more talented. DD backs up Taylor. Pittsburgh -- DD more talented than Duce Staley? Maybe younger, but Duce is still better. Tampa Bay -- no doubt that Caddilac is more talented. TB would not trade Caddilac for DD. Chicago -- Benson is more talented and Jones is probably, as well. No way DD starts here. Tennessee --- Both Chris Brown and Travis Henry are more talented. He doesn't start here. This just in: LA doesn't have a team anymore, but I'm guessing you mean the Raiders -- Jordan is more talented. Based on his 4.9 ypc and much larger contract, I believe Oakland feels the same way. I don't know why you are equating this contract extension to some kind of statement about his greatness. This was a very pedestrian contract. It's similar to the contract extension that Barlow got, but smaller than recent contracts signed by Rudi Johnson, Lamont Jordan, and Charlie Garner. Just because a player signs a 5-year extension doesn't mean he'll be with the team for the life of the contract. DD's contract calls for larger contract cap hits in the 4th and 5th years. If he's not going to be worth it, they will have no problem cutting him. BTW, I have no problem ranking him in the top 12 for fantasy RBs this year, but someone on this board had him ranked number 3 earlier and that is not realistic IMO. 13 Shak       ID: 481029813       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 16:38 I have no problem with DD's production, I just don't think he's as talented as most starting RBs. As far as comparing him to James, Alexander, and Portis, I think you are way off base there. James and Alexander did initially get their contract extensions while they were in their contract years. They have now been in the league for 7 or 8 years and are looking for another long term contract. Those are a little harder to come by when you have already passed the average tenure for RBs. As for Portis, Denver traded him because they needed a CB and they were loaded at RB. Washington immediately locked him during his contract year. Since you brought up Deuce, yes he did sign a 7-year contract extension for over $50M. Kind of makes DD's deal look minor, doesn't it? I certainly wasn't comparing DD to TO as a player, but just pointing out that TO just signed a contract last year and now wants to renegotiate. That's just crazy. 14 Shak       ID: 481029813       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 16:40 GC, can you name one young RB that was not given a contract extension during his initial contract year? 15 Edneck       ID: 115222815       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 16:40 I'll let it go, we both have different opinions on what it takes to be a starting RB in the NFL and Talent alone makes up about 30% of that. I'd take DD over most of those backs you think are better then 3/4 of the NFL..Taylor, give me a break, he has Talent, he mets none of the other criteria. I do like Jordan and the rookies are just that, potential I wouldn't let Skip influence me on them. They havn't proven anything yet? DD has proven he can play in this league and is an above average back. Like Cobb say's time will tell and you don't like being wrong, I can see that? 16 Shak       ID: 481029813       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 16:50 Come on, Ed, do you like to be wrong? I don't like it, but I'm definitely man enough to admit it when I am wrong. If I have to admit it here, it won't be the first time. Talent makes up 30% for a RB? Wow, that's not giving much credit to the great RBs in the league. I have to ask you again, if DD were sent to Jacksonville, do you really expect Taylor to ride the bench in favor of DD? I can't see it. 17 Edneck       ID: 115222815       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 17:09 I've admitted more then I care to remember I was wrong, but Yeah I would take DD over a more talented, injury prone, heartless, none-TD scoring Taylor? I let you get away with questioning my Integrity, with your crying over a trade offer that was in my right to pull when and If I felt it wasn't in my best interest. Now you question my manhood? Your pushing it Bud, not a big deal to me either way If your right and I'm wrong, I'll apologize when DD Loses his job and becomes just another backup in the NFL, that's were most of them play, behind someone else? 18 Shak       ID: 481029813       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 17:16 Ed, I'm sorry if you took it as my questioning your manhood. That was not my intent. 19 Shak       ID: 481029813       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 17:18 Ed, if you feel so strongly that it was in your right to pull the trade after I already accepted, we can reverse. I didn't know you were so sensitive. :-) 20 Edneck       ID: 115222815       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 17:31 I have no problem with the trade? I'm not looking for a fight, but I was a little perturbed with questioning my whatever. believe me If I really thought it was a bad trade I wouldn't have gone through with it. I speak my mind, and you do also..I do not want hard feelings and that was probably bugging me a little? Forgotten...I respect your knowledge and you probably think I'm talking Shite, but it's just an opinion that differs from yours... 21 Edneck       ID: 115222815       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 17:35 Maybe I am Sensitive? I have a cat-fight in every league....My wife just said I'm a know-it-all...enough said. 22 Shak       ID: 481029813       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 17:39 Point taken. You earned my respect with your win as a rookie manager in bbm. That was very impressive. I think it's great that we have some opinionated players that aren't afraid to speak their mind. What fun would it be if everyone agreed and no one wanted to get involved in controversy? It's too bad most of the players in our league choose not to get involved in these conversations. I wonder how many of them passively monitor? I'm willing to bet that the winner of at least one league will be one of the active contributors to the board. 23 Shak       ID: 481029813       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 18:04 Now that I've irritated GCobb and (unintentionally) insulted Ed, is there anyone else out there that would like me to pour some sunshine into their day? Mike, Scott, FNAS, TB, STB (are they related), where are you guys? Stop hiding! 24 Edneck       ID: 115222815       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 18:09 I know in most of my older leagues it's toned down from the early years? I think it just comes down to, Time, Priorites and Personality. You can tell the owners that like to mix it up and talk football or trash as some may call it. You can always count on GCobb, Scotty, Yourself, FNAS, Mike to voice their opinions and even though I might not agree with them, have a few arguments with them, I would still rather play Fantasy sports with them, then the guys who hang back and contribute nothing but money too the league. I know everyone has their reasons, I know JHHH has four toddlers and they take up most of his time and he'll still make a appearance every once and a while. I bet a few never even visit this site until close to draft day. 25 GCobb       ID: 387201918       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 18:43 You haven't irritated me at all. Interesting discussion...we just have some slight differences in opinion about the meaning of things. No big deal. 26 GCobb       ID: 387201918       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 18:44 Lets switch gears a little... Who is your pick for rookie of the year? (Offense and Defense combined) 27 Shak       ID: 481029813       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 18:45 Damn, I guess I'm losing my touch. I'm going to have to try harder next time. :-0 28 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 19:40 Sorry Shak,, I had to spend the day working. Site Nazis at Shaw are pretty strict. OK now can we look at this DD signing in a different light? What if, and I know it's hard to imagine in todays pro sports but what if he took low money in order to leave the Texans room to buy an O line. I know thats crazy thinking for this era. The D is middle of the pack. They have a pretty good QB and RB if protected. One WR worth a crap but with a good O line, not so top of the line WRs can become good and a good RB can be studly. Just a thought. 29 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 19:41 O rookie of the year is Arrington. 1300 rushing, 300 plus recieving, 12 combined TDs 30 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 20:18 D rookie, if he heels up, Damarcus Ware. I think all the rest of possible choices is either unsigned or probably going to jail. 31 RBP       ID: 246551918       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 20:59 I'm at work too, lurking, just not posting today. I'll get into it after bit. 32 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 21:21 DD not as talented as Edge, LT, Portis, and you have got to be shittin me, Fragile Freddy?? OMG, Jax was trying to sign TH to replace Taylor not back him up. I would say talent is 40%. The big difference in DD and the rest is the talent they are surrounded with. D backs can't cheat up on Edge. LT has had one of the best O lines in the league and lets not forget him leading the team in receptions. Portis, I guess I was just imagining his stats drop when he went to Wash? Denver proved last year that anyone can run behind that line with those run blocking schemes. Can you honestly say that anyone of the 4 would do any better starting for SF? Of course not. If you need me to prove that, leave DD for me in the first round and if he stays healthy, I'll win the league. 33 GCobb       ID: 16631113       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 21:44 Offensive Rookie: Arrington. Defenseive Rookie: Derrick Johnson. And it won't be close. 34 GCobb       ID: 16631113       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 21:49 FNAS: BTW, Ware better be good. I mean really good, or I might just swear off every pulling for the Cowboys again. JJ passing on Derrick Johnson tore me up. 35 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 21:50 GC, HOMER! But you are probably right. Since KC D line doesn't seem to stop anyone, he should get a butt load of tackles. 36 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 21:51 GC, It's never too early to jump on the Texan BW. 37 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 22:07 MY CALL!! LT's rushing numbers will drop this year. Big change that most won't see prior to the draft. 38 GCobb       ID: 16631113       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 22:10 I think Dallas is due for a turnaround and I understand why they took Ware. They need a pressure guy on the outside. But, Johnson has been a man amongst boys since the day he set foot on the field in Austin. I was dying to have him in a Cowboys uni. 39 RBP       ID: 2962315       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 22:38 "Big change" New O-Line coach? 40 RBP       ID: 246551918       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 23:00 Chuck I hope your wrong. Counting the ECC I'll have LT in 3 leagues come opening day. 41 GCobb       ID: 16631113       Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 23:09 Losing Hudson Houck is definitely going to hurt. Plus, I'm not sure Brees can put up another year like last year. 42 Shak       ID: 165532722       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 00:32 FNAS, you have been drinking the DD kool aid too? Yeah, right, he signed for less than he could have because he wanted them to spend more money on other players -- and Ricky Williams' coming back has nothing to do with the $8M he owes the Dolphins, right? So does having a lot of offensive talent help or hurt a RB? Would LT's value soar if SD could actually find a couple of WRs? Same for Jamal Lewis? Would Edge be not as good without those WRs. I'm not sure what is better for RBs. I know in DDs case that if Houston upgrades the O line and Carr starts having time to throw the ball downfield to Johnson and company, it will decrease the number of targets to DD. Portis's problem was a weak offensive line and also a coach that insisted on running a power running game (counter trey) with a smaller, quick RB. If Jax is so anxious to replace Fred, why don't they make a run at Alexander? Why were they so hesitant in giving Buff a 3rd rounder? Perhaps you could direct me to an article that says they are trying to find a new starting RB. They are a dime a dozen and they shouldn't have a problem trading for one, right? Yes, I can say that Portis, James, LT, and a healthy Taylor would do better in SF than DD because they are superior RBs. Portis was a product of the Denver system, but I think he did an admirable job rushing for 1300+ yards with an offensive line that was probably worse than Houston's and definitely a worse QB and WRs. If talent is only 30-40% of what makes a great RB, what is the other 60-70%? What seperates the good RBs from the great RBs if it's not talent? What's the difference between DD and LT and Priest? Are all great RBs just a product of their systems? I will end my rant on DD by saying that he will not remain a starting RB in the NFL for the length of his contract. He will post decent top 12 RB numbers this year, but he will lose his job before he costs Houston a big salary cap hit. 43 GCobb       ID: 16631113       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 02:12 You make a good point about surrounding offensive talent helping or hurting a back. I'm not sure there is an answer to that question other than to say there's probably an optimal balance. Edgerrin's is too far in one direction and Jamal Lewis's is too far in the other. Emmitt, IMO, had the perfect balance around him witk Aikman, Irvin, and Novacek. We've beaten this issue to death, but I did want to respond to the 30-40% talent issue and what makes the other 60-70%. I think both Ed and FNAS were talking about pure athleticism. Size, speed, explosion. I agree with both of them that pure athleticism is only 30-40% of the equation. Must have attributes for any RB: 1) Vision...by far the most important trait 2a) Acceleration 0-10 yds 2b) Toughness (heart) 2c) Balance Size & speed are way down the list. Disagree that Portis was a product of the system. Gaining 1300 behind the Wash O-line proves that point. What separates LT and Priest from DD? LT has all the skills and vastly superior athleticism. Priest has all the skills and somewhat better athleticism. I'm not a huge DD fan, but I do think you're selling him short. The only thing he lacks is top end speed. He has vision, 0-10 acceleration, toughness/heart, and balance. One last word on his contract...keep in mind, DD has only played 2 season in the NFL. Even though his bonus is "only" $5 million, there is $8 million in guarantees. No question Deuce McAllister got significantly more money. DD was probably better served playing out this season and then negotiating a new contract. 44 RBP       ID: 246551918       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 02:41 "1) Vision...by far the most important trait" Could not agree more. "So does having a lot of offensive talent help or hurt a RB?" It helps but I must explain. RB may get fewer touches with a better supporting cast but those touches will be more productive because the Def cannot focus on him. Better WR's makes the Safties stay back instead of putting 8 or 9 in the box and shutting down the run. If the team has no offense but the RB then yes the RB can still be very productive based upon increased touches. "Emmitt, IMO, had the perfect balance around him witk Aikman, Irvin, and Novacek." Great example and you can add in Moose and Harper not to mention a massive O-Line. I think it's always best for an offense to be balanced. It's harder to prepare against an offense who is unpredictable and run and pass the ball equally well. Getting into a different subject but I wanted to throw that out there. "I'm not sure Brees can put up another year like last year" Me either, or Gates for that matter. I think they both lose a little from last season and that is not based on anything other than I can't imagine them actually playing better. 45 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 06:05 Nope. LT is going to admit his "relationship" with Brees. When his "buddy" gets canned, he will fall apart emotionally. Instict, agility, speed, strength of schedule, talent around them, and one big ass O' line. You don't see the holes, you feel the holes. Vision is a word used because people can't explain instinct. Does Walter Payton and Barry Sanders ring a bell. I sure do feel safe in retiring knowing you cats have all the answers. But since it is not going to be today, I need to get my ass to work. Have fun. 46 Edneck       ID: 115222815       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 08:37 I couldn,'t have said it better myself "GCobb", when your education and Grammer is poor and you have trouble getting your point across let "G" articulate for you? Shak, I do think your right in the money was a little low compared to other starting backs in the NFL. He may will lose his job, but Like I said they've been saying that for 2 years now and he keep's putting up yards and being very productive. Give the man a little credit. I think SHak just likes a little flash in his starting back, Give him a slow Franco Harris, Riggins, Bettis type and he would rather have Faulk, Sanders types, nothing wrong with that, just a matter of taste. Remember Big, bad Hershell Walker, no vision, I think he's a prime example of how talent and size are only the 30-40 percent part that makes up a great RB. 47 Edneck       ID: 115222815       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 08:47 I can see Franco Harris and John Riggins sitting on Coach Shak's bench going "Come on coach I'm better then that Fred Taylor". I'm sorry boys, he ticks all my boxes as a top NFL back, your just have to wait until he gets hurt...which won't be long? He HE. 48 Shak       ID: 481029813       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 09:37 Maybe we just have a difference of opinion on what talent is, but I consider vision, acceleration, and balance natural God-given talents. Is vision something you can learn? Are running instincts something that can be taught? I don't think so. I never considered Herschel blessed with RB skills. He was a terrific college RB just based on his physical attributes, but he didn't have the talent to succeed in the NFL. Ed, did you bring up Franco, Riggins, and Bettis because you thought that's what I equate DD to? DD is undersized and lacks speed. I don't see the connection. I actually would compare DD to a poor man's Tiki or Westbrook, except those backs are much more elusive. Being that DD is undersized and lacks escapability, he will get more dinged up than most RBs. According to the Houston Chronicle, he is injury prone. This from October of last year: As the Texans enjoy an open date, Davis is banged up with a bruised left thigh that sidelined him the entire second half against Tennessee last Sunday. The latest injury came just a week after he returned to the lineup from a sprained right ankle. Davis goes by the nickname "Double D" for obvious reasons. Some have to wonder if it stands for "doubtful durability." Staying healthy was never an issue in his limited role at LSU. But since Davis began his pro career, his name has been on the medical charts as often as it has in the team record book. He broke his hand and missed most of his first training camp. He missed two games during last year's regular season with groin and quadriceps injuries and was bothered during two other games by chest and hip ailments. Through six games, Davis has more fumbles (four) than touchdowns (three). He has 80 rushing attempts for 233 yards — just 2.9 yards per carry — with his longest run only 10 yards. Since I had DD last year, it was probably about this point that I soured on him. He did finish strong, but I was never comfortable with him as my #1 pick. Maybe my problem is I rely on the local newspapers a little too much to give me insite into players. 49 Shak       ID: 481029813       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 09:41 Ed, I think you are taking cheap shots by putting words in my mouth. Who are you to say what type of back I prefer? Please don't assume just because I'm down on DD that I'm a complete idiot. As far as Fred Taylor goes, I don't think you can doubt that Fred has much better RB skills than DD will ever have. The problem with Fred is he can't stay healthy. Everyone knows that. I never claimed Fred was a great back, but if he's healthy, he is clearly better than DD. Can you dispute that? 50 GCobb       ID: 16631113       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 09:54 The more I read these posts, the more I'm convinced Shak is trying to throw us off DD's trail so he can have him for himself. 51 Shak       ID: 481029813       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 10:04 LOL, GCobb's on to me. You better make sure DD is the 3rd RB taken or he's all mine!! 52 Edneck       ID: 115222815       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 10:12 SHAK, Just having some fun? So, I emblished The truth a little? Not far off the mark. I think we get how you feel about DD? 53 Edneck       ID: 115222815       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 10:20 Riggins just called and said he would never play for Coach Shak Again? 54 Edneck       ID: 115222815       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 10:23 Sanders said the only thing that would have brought him out of retirement, was to play for Coach Shak? "Skip Bayliss reporting"? 55 Shak       ID: 481029813       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 10:40 Ed, you know how sensitive I am. Even fat hawaiians have feelings, you know. Since Arrington seems to be the people's fave for ROY, I'll resist the temptation to take Vernand Morency and take Caddilac Williams. On the defensive side, I'll go with Antrel Rolle. 56 Edneck       ID: 115222815       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 11:20 Offense: Troy Williamson WR, Minn, I just think with his speed, Culpepper will get him the ball. Risky pick and goes against my belief's on rookie WR's. Just a feeling. Defense: Shawne Merriman, I know his star dropped a little, but I saw a few of his games and no one could handle him? 57 Shak       ID: 481029813       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 11:37 Do we have a our statboy(s) for this year? Has anyone volunteered? 58 RBP       ID: 2962315       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 15:53 me 59 Shak       ID: 481029813       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 15:56 Bout time you showed up. 60 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 16:41 The biggest problem with slinging crap is sometimes you start thinking its true. 61 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 16:42 The biggest problem with slinging crap is sometimes you start thinking its true. 62 RBP       ID: 2962315       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 17:08 Double post, nice. Guys I'm working hard, once the family leaves I'll have more puter time. 63 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 18:11 As I said before, leave DD for me and say good by to your 40 units 64 Edneck       ID: 115222815       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 18:22 Hey I'm think of taking Fred Taylor early now? 65 Shak       ID: 481029813       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 18:36 FNAS, if he's still available at 12, would you consider trading with me to lock him up?? How about my 1.12, 2.7, and 5.12 for your 1.17, 2.2, and 5.1. You can accept now and we can make it contingent upon DD being available at #12. This is your chance to lock up a stud RB in the first round with the 12th pick, should he fall that far, which he shouldn't. 66 Shak       ID: 481029813       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 18:36 Ed, you love question marks, don't you? 67 Edneck       ID: 115222815       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 18:45 Is that a question? You shouldn't answer a question with a question? I would never question your posts? Your thoughts on players are very questionable? There is no question I would take DD over FT? If you want to ask me any further questions, speak to my lawyer? 68 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 18:46 Shak, I would love to have DD but not worth giving up 2 picks in the top 20. 69 Shak       ID: 481029813       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 18:54 LOL, thought so. I guess he's not really a top 5 RB after all. This all started because Scott listed DD as the #3 RB in his projections. I scoffed and you all jumped all over me. I think it's obvious who's "slinging crap" now. BTW, the trade I offered you was a very fair trade and if you had a chance to get a top 5 RB at #12, I think you would have jumped all over it. 70 Edneck       ID: 115222815       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 18:57 Watch him FNAS, He's a crafty old dog. He's like those deep sea creatures that have those luminous tails to attract it's prey and Boom! he rips your Face off? 71 Shak       ID: 481029813       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 19:06 FNAS, come on, buddy, where's that Texan pride? He probably will be long gone by 12, so just accept to show that you really do believe he is a stud RB?? Don't tell me the kool-aid has worn off?? I think I'll end all my sentences with question marks?? 72 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 19:11 My Texas pride is in my heart. I never play with my heart. No matter who it is, it takes more than 1 player to win a league. Now if just want to swap round 1 picks, if DD is available at 12, we can do that. What do the experts say? Draft Rank Player Pos Team Avg Selection (Overall) Highest Selection 1 Tomlinson, LaDainian RB SDC 1.1 1 2 Alexander, Shaun RB SEA 2.8 2 3 Holmes, Priest RB KCC 3.2 2 4 Manning, Peyton QB IND 4.3 1 5 James, Edgerrin RB IND 4.9 2 6 McAllister, Deuce RB NOS 6.5 2 7 McGahee, Willis RB BUF 6.9 3 8 Davis, Domanick RB HOU 10 5 9 Portis, Clinton RB WAS 10 3 10 Moss, Randy WR OAK 10.4 4 11 Lewis, Jamal RB BAL 10.4 6 12 Jones, Kevin RB DET 13.7 7 13 Dillon, Corey RB NEP 14.3 6 14 Barber, Tiki RB NYG 14.9 8 15 Owens, Terrell WR PHI 15.8 5 16 Jones, Julius RB DAL 16.3 9 17 Culpepper, Daunte QB MIN 16.6 4 18 Green, Ahman RB GBP 16.9 7 19 Johnson, Rudi RB CIN 17.9 11 20 Harrison, Marvin WR IND 20.1 11 68 Taylor, Fred RB JAC 67.6 38 73 Shak       ID: 481029813       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 19:20 So what's your point?? That DD should go in the top 8 picks or that Taylor is injury prone?? If it's the former, I suggest you accept my fair offer?? If it's the latter, tell me something I don't know. 74 Shak       ID: 481029813       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 19:21 If you're going to make a counter-offer, at least make it realistic?? 75 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 19:25 No, really I think I'm proving GC's point. You are blowing smoke. You said DD was injury prone, the rest of America doesn't see it that way. You seen my counter and why. I think its probably the same reason you want those slots. 76 Shak       ID: 481029813       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 19:30 How am I blowing smoke?? I'm giving you the chance to back up your words by letting you snag a top 5 RB with the 12th pick?? Do you believe that there is very little drop off between DD and Ahman Green?? Are you disputing it's a fair trade offer or do you just not believe your own words?? 77 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 19:48 Shak, Please, I would never insult your intelligence. I expect the same in return. Don’t try to play me like some grade school kid. Yes I believe my own words but as I stated earlier, I’m not going to give up 2 top 20 picks regardless of who’s available at 12. To be honest, I don’t think anyone knows AG’s worth for this year. I think he’s a crap shoot if he falls in the top 10. But really, who isn’t except Manning, Culp, or McNabb? 78 Shak       ID: 1911172611       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 20:15 FNAS, I just don't want you to think that I'm not taking note of your comments. You have made many snide remarks, not the least of which was the slinging crap remark. I don't need to go back to the other threads and quote more do I?? I also seem to recall you were part of the discussion ridiculing the so called experts and how some people blindly follow cheatsheets and mock drafts. Now I have my own opinion that doesn't follow the mainstream "experts" and you make fun of my opinion and don't expect me to fire back?? Now you take offense when I give you an opportunity to back up your words? I don't get it. In all seriousness, do you really believe DD is a top 5 RB? 79 Shak       ID: 1911172611       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 20:16 FNAS, if you believe I have insulted your intelligence or insulted you in any other way, I apologize. Reading my posts, I certainly don't believe I have done that and it wasn't my intent. Just as with Ed, I respect your opinions and think you are very knowledgeable. 80 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 20:37 Shak, Hold on there deputy dog. Don't read any emotion in to my comments.. I didn't feel you attacked me. I was talking more to how you were trying to push me in to the trade. Point of order, the slinging crap comment was diected towards me first and foremost but am quite sure applies to about 50% of the posts. OK now I'm starting to feel like I'm talking to my X wife. The ridiculing of the "experts" was intended to be a compliment to those that are posting in this site. Everyone seems just as qualified as those that are making a living by quessing and researching the same stuff we are. "Now I have my own opinion that doesn't follow the mainstream "experts" and you make fun of my opinion and don't expect me to fire back?? Now you take offense when I give you an opportunity to back up your words? I don't get it." Man I sure have no idea where that came from but OK, what ever. I thought it was a good discussion. If I was up in the top 7 I can honestly say I would take DD. I don't know what I would do if Manning, Culp and DD were still there at #7 but would probably take a shot of that DD kool-aide. I'm not giving up 2 top 20 picks top move up to number 12. What's so hard to understand? I gave up the number 1 to get almost where I want to be. 81 Edneck       ID: 115222815       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 21:10 I think Shak must have thought he was being attacked from all sides with the comments about DD. Unlike Clyde I like a little heat in the kitchen. Shak can handle it, There is just a few people who think he's wrong, we'll see on draft day where DD goes. This is better then the late night baseball I'm watching now. I did love the X-Wife comment? 82 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 21:27 There is ABSOLUTELY one thing for sure that is true in FF. No one is wrong and no one is right. It is usually a mix of both. Unless you have a crystal ball it is all a WAG based on research and gut feelings. Again, Shak, I never said you were wrong. I just might see things different or for that matter I may agree with you and might be slinging crap. 83 RBP       ID: 246551918       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 23:14 Chuck only slightly disagree. After the season we'll see who was right and who was wrong and who was just flat out LUCKY! PS your all full of crap :-) 84 Shak       ID: 165532722       Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 23:27 It's all good, FNAS. I guess I was a little defensive because of all the ribbing I was getting from Edneck. I really find it hard to believe that you would take DD over Manning. You probably are talking Ely here, right? 85 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Wed, Aug 10, 2005, 01:04 Man, put in a couple days of working instead of surfing the forum and I find I am 100 posts behind. I just skimmed the latter half of this thread, but I like the two rookies FNAS picked for rookie of the year. Arrington and Ware. I don't think Arrington will get to 1300 yards rushing, but I do think he will bust 1000. 86 Edneck       ID: 115222815       Wed, Aug 10, 2005, 12:21 Looks like Bettis is back in the hunt early in the season. I believe Staley has Cartlidge damage. He wasn't a top pick, but interesting to see who grabs who first later on. 87 Shak       ID: 481029813       Wed, Aug 10, 2005, 13:52 Can you imagine how hard it would have been to draft on the 1st? Where would you select the rookie RBs that haven't signed? Hopefully they'll sign soon and we'll be able to see them play in at least one game. 88 Shak       ID: 481029813       Wed, Aug 10, 2005, 15:51 Report: Owens leaves Eagles camp There are reports this afternoon that wide receiver Terrell Owens exchanged words with Head Coach Andy Reid at a team meeting and was asked to leave. Owens then got his belongings and cleared out of Eagles training camp at Lehigh University, according to one television report. The Inquirer will update and confirm this information as soon as possible. TO acting like a spoiled brat?? Say it ain't so! I guess I should be fair and wait till we hear TO's side of the story. 89 Shak       ID: 481029813       Wed, Aug 10, 2005, 16:08 Time to move TO and McNabb down a few spots? Does this add to Westbrook's value? How can Philly possibly get to the SB without TO? They already lost Pinkston and Mitchell. 90 Edneck       ID: 115222815       Wed, Aug 10, 2005, 17:45 I pulled this off the ESPN site: GCobb has inside Info? "The Inquirer also said on sports talk radio station WIP, former NFL player Gary Cobb said he had talked to an Eagles player today who said the dispute started over Owens' morning workout. According to Cobb, the player told him that Owens was supposed to be off today in order to rest his strained groin muscle and Reid was upset to see him running pass routes at full speed. When Reid suggested that if Owens felt good enough to run routes all out, he should be good enough to attend practice, and the player told Cobb that the argument escalated from there "G" tell us more!! 91 RBP       ID: 246551918       Wed, Aug 10, 2005, 19:15 Time to move TO and McNabb down a few spots? Yes it is. Does this add to Westbrook's value? He will probably get more touches, what he does with them is up to him. How can Philly possibly get to the SB without TO? The NFC on the whole is weak, IMO defense wins championships so losing TO sucks but doesn't spell doom for the iggles. Maybe the rookie Reggie Brown will shine now that EVRYBODY else is hurt. I'd like to amend my SB teams to Indy and Hotlanta. Indianapolis Mannings 34 Atlanta Vicks 28 92 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Wed, Aug 10, 2005, 19:33 Burkhalter is hurt as well. 93 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Wed, Aug 10, 2005, 19:35 Pinkston hurts Phili but Mitchell is a non factor. Hell he isn't even going to start for KC. What does that say about the guy? 94 Shak       ID: 1911172611       Wed, Aug 10, 2005, 23:49 What does that say about the WRs Phil has left? Westbrook might have to have 100 receptions for them to move the ball. 95 Shak       ID: 481029813       Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 10:12 So what happens to TO now? If he returns to camp on the 17th, will he go about his business and have his usual top 3 WR year, or does he continue to be disgruntled and force Philly to take further action? Can Philly find a team that will take on TO and fit his salary under the cap? With all this said, where does he get drafted in our leagues? He returns on the 17th and we draft less than a week later. Does McNabb drop far due to this? Is he still the concensus #3 QB? Tough call. 96 Shak       ID: 481029813       Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 10:34 Excuse me if I find this whole TO thing more than slightly amusing. I lived thru it all as a Niner fan -- can't get along with his Pro Bowl QB, doesn't respect his coaches, a cancer to the team. The honeymoon is over!! If the guy can't get along with the Mooch, then who can he get along with? The Bucs set the precedence for releasing a high profile WR a couple of years ago. How much patience will Philly have this year? I tell you what, if you guys let TO slide until the 3rd round, I'll take a flyer on him with one of my teams. I've already reserved one 3rd round pick for Fragile Freddy -- well before his projected slot of 68. 97 harmonj       ID: 24645289       Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 16:11 I hope they make him sit on the sidelines all year and make him suffer... The eagles are going to be a bust this year anyways. McNabb is on the cover of madden so he's doomed. :) 98 Shak       ID: 481029813       Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 17:35 Mr. Harmon, welcome to the board. I'm so happy you've decided to grace us with your presence. Are you a passive reader, or just an occasional browser? Glad to have some company, as it looks like I've alienated most of the other regulars. Either that, or they are in a state of depression over the TO-Eagles "difference of opinion". 99 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 18:19 I'm with you Shak. According to the Phili Pres is he will either play or he will rot the 2005 season. There will be no trade. I watched the interview with T.O.. IMO this is a no win situation. He called McNabb out again. I don't think McNabb will throw 20 TDs this year if T.O. doesn't play. 100 Shak       ID: 481029813       Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 18:26 You're kidding. What did he say about McNabb now? I can remember how shy and quiet TO was when he first started with the Niners. Jerry Rice took him under his wing and brought him along. And then there was that playoff game against GB when he caught the winning TD at the end of the game and then broke down and cried. What happened to turn him into such an arrogant, me-first kind of person. I'd like to know what his parents think of all of this. 101 Edneck       ID: 115222815       Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 18:28 I think Shak's question is were does TO/McNabb/Westbrook go in the draft now. My feelings are, early on I play it somewhat safe, McNabb definitely drops down a few notches and Westbrook was a second round pick, he could Go late first now. I'll stay away from the TO situation until I think it's time to gamble on him. I don't think he can go top second or late second, too many other options to choose. It will probably sort itself out before draft day, so it is a interesting problem. The messages are mixed on all the sites, so it just depends on who you choose to believe. 102 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 18:46 If T O doesn't play, Westbrook's stock goes up in leagues that give points per reception. McNabb drops, IMO to around the 6 or 7 QB spot. What should happen if T O decides not to come back (and that's the key, it can't be Phili keeping him out) Phili should be compensated much in the same way that Miami is supposed to get the $8M from what's his name, dope smoker guy. Then on top of that, Owens should not be allowed to play for any other team until that money is paid back to Phili. Ok how old is?? I'm thinking 2 years of rotting outside of football should earn him the leagues minimum for vets when he does finally come back. It needs to stop right now. The NFL owners need to all be together on this. The same holds true for the signing of draft picks. Why in the world is Smith worth so much and when is it going to stop. If the owners can't get together, the NFL needs to step in and establish a rookie cap and the players union be damned. I'll bet the veteran players would support a rookie cap. You know what, so what if these rookies decide not to play? Hell I don't draft a rookie QB any way so what do I care. 103 Edneck       ID: 115222815       Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 19:07 There are so many reasons why these players holdout for contracts and most of it comes down to the agent's advising these guys and pure Ego's getting in the way. You can't blame the players for wanting the most money they can get with the market so inflated. One injury and their playing days are over. Most of the elite players have insurance policies in case of injuries anyhow? A rookie cap would solve a few hold outs, I mean these guys havn't proven anything yet, I just don't want a NHL thing to happen to football and we lose a season over money issues! 104 Shak       ID: 481029813       Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 19:15 The big difference between the NHL and the NFL is that the NFL is making money hand over fist. Unfortunately, it's the fans that are paying the bill. Have you seen the cost for football games? And how many people are throwing down $240 to get the NFL's Sunday Ticket? They even have the Sunday Ticket in HD for another $100. There's such a demand for this, that they have no problems selling it. I guess since the owners are making so much money, it's only right the players get their share. Not saying it's right, I'm just trying to look at it from another point of view. 105 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 19:27 Ed,, Point taken but what I want is to be able to afford to take my family to a ball game. I don't want to have to pay to watch a football game on TV. That's where we are headed. Being overseas, a couple years ago you were probably able to find a local radio station on the net that was playing a game and at least be able to listen to it for free. Not no more. How long will it be before AFN has to pay for games and stop carrying them? I don't blame players for asking, I blame owners for paying. That's what I meant by they all need to be on the same page with this. You really can not convince me that a guy that signs for a $7M signing bonus can't make $$ decisions well enough to set him self up for life if he is injured. That's more money I will ever see in my life time. What if I'm hurt and can't work. Who the hell beside me and my family cares. Think about the guy that works 2 jobs just to make $35K a year. How in the world is this guy ever going to be able to spend time with his son at a pro ball game. My 1st trip to Bush stadium with my dad is one of the best memories I will ever have. My 1st Houston Oilers game was simply amazing. The speed at which these guys play; you just don't see on TV; just blew me away. 106 Edneck       ID: 115222815       Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 19:42 FNAS and Shak it is a travesty that the price of a NFL game has gone so high that you can't afford to bring the family. I saw a Reds game last year and we payed 28 bucks for pretty decent seats, but baseball has to do that, because they play everyday. The NFL has always been expensive, I payed 75 dollars for a Cowboy game about ten year ago. I remember going to my first game @ Memorial Stadium in Cleveland back in the early 70's and I can still remember how it felt. Then when you get in the game it costs you 7.50 for a hotdog and a drink is 5.00 bucks? I mean unless you got some cash it's a one-time deal for many families and they have to save a few months just to budget that....Crazy and until attendance drops the prices will remain the same. 107 Edneck       ID: 115222815       Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 19:52 Municipal Stadium in Cleveland I believe it was called. You know Clevelands Old stadium that was falling apart and used by the Indians and Browns before Jacobs was build. 108 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 20:17 Ok, we all agree but how or when do we as fans draw the line. I'm not saying anyone is wrong. I'm just saying there is no way you can convince me to feel sorry for a guy that makes that kind of duckets. It has to start somewhere and why not start with the owners? 109 Tribe       Donor       ID: 56840617       Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 20:18 Ahh yes old Cleveland Browns Stadium! I have fond memories of that place. I was there for the last game played. It was crazy when they started ripping out the seats and throwing them on to the field! The best part was the Browns actually won that game. One of only a few they won all year. 110 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 20:26 I guess when we can't afford to watch football on TV we can start playing Fantasy Texas Holdem. 111 RBP       ID: 246551918       Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 21:21 How many days until the draft? 112 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 21:30 9? Hey Scott, where was the rules for roster and line up and stuff? 113 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 21:36 Owens is just plain nuts. Did you see the half time show? Shut up no you shut up. What the hell? Keep him on TV, he is hurting himself more with each interview. 114 Shak       ID: 1911172611       Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 23:32 The league rules had an overriding motto to keep it simple. We draft only 10 roster spots - which is still decent depth considering there are 18 teams - and from the 10 you will start 1 QB, 1 RB, 1 WR/TE, 1 K and 3 flex-RB/WR/TE each week. Basically we look at your team after the week is over and see what would have been your best lineup and that's the points you get. So if your team is deep and all 10 players are playing then you have a better chance to post a good score. If you have 7 guys who start for their NFL team and 3 who are backups the you need your stars to play better every week to hang around. If you can draft 10 solid consistent players then you should go far. If you draft guys like the Corey Dillon of old who would get 35 points 1 week then 3 points, then 29, then 4 then you can see that on his bad weeks you could be hurting. The weekly top scoring owner each week will gain immunity for the next week but it will only last through NFL season 15. Week 16 and 17 their will be no immunity and teams will face off for two weeks with the highest combined score the winner and 2nd highest gets second. Tie breakers for any given week are TOTAL TD's scored by your team (whole roster), then total TD's scored by your lineup (your actually lineup) then rushing TD's, recieving TDs and finally passing TD's. It will probably never even get to a tiebreaker but you never know. And no transactions after the draft, you get what you draft to last you all 17 weeks! You can trade during the draft but the max # of players you can have is 10. All trades must be for even number players or picks ie 1 for 1, 2 for 2, 3 for 3 etc. 2005 payouts are as follows Survivor in each league gets $210 Runner up in each league gets $75 Highest total score for all 17 weeks gets $50 in each league. Owner who survives the most weeks combined between two leagues gets $50. 115 RBP       ID: 246551918       Fri, Aug 12, 2005, 00:49 On a side note I was trying to push the concept of two 9 team tribes with teh 18 team league. The idea went down in flames but part of the idea was that two "clan leaders" would draft 8 owners to be in there tribe, lowest scoring team on the lowest scoring tribe was eliminated from week to week. At the end of the day you want the better owners in your tribe. So if were to draft (me and Shak) who would you take, you go 1 and 4, I'll go 2-3. 116 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Fri, Aug 12, 2005, 02:35 The idea would still work if you went with the average score for each team in each tribe. Or, if you based it on the top 3 weekly scoring teams for each tribe until one tribe was down to 3 teams, then merge tribes and finish up like a traditional survivor league. We could add it as a meaningless twist this year, just to see how it pans out without it affecting how we run the leagues. 117 Superclydes       ID: 63402814       Fri, Aug 12, 2005, 04:23 Um, I believe the NCAA made a ruling about using Indian terms for team names or associations. I would like to think that we could follow suit. Ok, enough of that garbage. I don't think that any of the teams used the terms in a dispariging manner. Why would you want to associate your team with something like that? Ok, so slurs weren't a hot topic back then, but in looking at it now, I don't think that was the intention nor do I think that they now are harmful terms. Take away the chiefs coins because of the symbol? Are they not top of their tribe? Aren't CMSgt's top of their tribe? Sorry to ramble on at that, but it has been bothering me that all of this is taking place and taking over tradition. Who would end up the eventual winner? Would the last person in a tribe be the winner of that tribe or would he continue to battle? What would happen if one tribe was totally eliminated? 118 RBP       ID: 2962315       Fri, Aug 12, 2005, 04:24 I was almost ran out of town for bringing it up so I ditched the idea. I just wondered where each owner would go in a draft of owners. Feelings and egos would certainly get hurt, so maybe it is a bad idea. I still think the idea is valid and a nice twist, I just couldn't explain it well enough to sell it. TB are you 1st round material? :-) 119 RBP       ID: 2962315       Fri, Aug 12, 2005, 04:32 Uh, at some predetermined point the tribes would have merged into one "tribe" and it would be every man for himself. I just threw out the idea, wasn't sure if it would work but worth discussing. Start out 9 vs 9. Worst case it could go to 9 vs 1 and if the "1" was a solid team he would have to survive by scoring more than the 9's average score. The more I think about it you really wouldn't need to merge. Who cares if it's 9 vs 1? Somebody is still going home each week and eventually if your team sucks you'll get the boot by being in the "better" tribe. I love the idea, maybe it can come to life in 2006...? Thoughts? 120 RBP       ID: 2962315       Fri, Aug 12, 2005, 04:36 It would be cool however to be selected as the #1 pick in the owner draft, serious ego boost for somebody. The guy picked last would need his ego stroked....nobody wants to be thought of as the weakest of 18 owners. I can see all kinds of controversy stirred up. Who are the sleeper owners? Who reached for a "over rated" under achieving bag of wind? Who slips in under the radar? Who are the sleepers? Busts? Lost of pressure on the #1 pick to draft a good team, because you'll look stupid to get the boot in week 1 after all of the hype. Clyde you there? 121 RBP       ID: 2962315       Fri, Aug 12, 2005, 04:37 Clyde if you would like we could draft the owners, me and you. You pick 1 then I'll go 2-3, then you for 4-5, me 6-7, you 8-9 etc. If your online now we can do it up, give the fellas something to talk about in the am. 122 RBP       ID: 2962315       Fri, Aug 12, 2005, 04:39 FNAS CPS Cobb HHH TrashHaulers 2Cool Tribe Harmon SupaMario STB Grim Reaper Shak Lost Reality Ednecks Joe TB 16 owners (RBP and Clyde drafting if Clyde is still online?) 123 Superclydes       ID: 63402814       Fri, Aug 12, 2005, 04:50 Wouldn't that just be the same as the Survivor game, but with divisions? I like your idea about average score for the division and lowest is out. I am still here. Jeez, this could really turn into something. I can stay up for another hour or so before I need to get some sleep. This is opening me up for a bunch of slamming. I will say this now, there is nothing meant by this and I would encourage another two teams to do this as well. I don't know a few of the people here, especially those who haven't posted here, but I will give it a shot. Here is where we could post it to not clog up the message board. Team Picks I will post the teams!! 124 RBP       ID: 2962315       Fri, Aug 12, 2005, 05:04 Let er rip, I picked. 125 Shak       ID: 481029813       Fri, Aug 12, 2005, 10:42 I was one of those opposed because initially the proposal was to vote a team off from the losing tribe. I thought that was pretty lame. I also don't like drafting owners because there is no one in this league that knows every single owner. It would not be so much a blow to the ego as much as it would disrespect them. It's also not a very friendly way to welcome new players. Besides that, I don't see it as adding much to the current format, except for the two guys that did the drafting. 126 Shak       ID: 481029813       Fri, Aug 12, 2005, 10:52 The proposal that I'm sad to see didn't get accepted was a big payoff for the grand champion. Anyone can luck their way into winning (see Survivor 2004 :-0). But to do well in both leagues I think is a true testament to your skill in this league. I would think that player should get at least the same as the league champions, if not more. Have we decided on the tie breaker for the player that survives the most combined weeks? Should it be total points? Did we do away with the individual week highest point scorer? 127 Edneck       ID: 115222815       Fri, Aug 12, 2005, 12:04 Yeah, I can understand that it may cause a few bad feelings with the owners that are new. It's just a little fun by the Boys..you big spoil sport...As far as the money, not a big deal either way...I know put your money where your mouth is, I'm not that confident and this format is not based soley on my ability to draft a winner, almost everyone has to adjust their roster with freeagent picks/Trades during the season to win most leagues. So with a lot of luck involved I think spreading the money is a wise move, I've heard your reasons for the GrandChampion idea and that's only pure Ego talking!! I think we had this discussion before!! 128 Superclydes       ID: 63402814       Fri, Aug 12, 2005, 13:19 Yeah, I was a little apprehensive with even doing a mock draft, because I don't know a few owners. Heck, I only know a lot of owners by messages and e-mail only! I do like the idea of having the who's best out of both leagues. Not to say I would change the format, but something to consider in the future. 129 Shak       ID: 481029813       Fri, Aug 12, 2005, 13:21 Ed, I agree with you -- let's spread the money around and have three big prizes instead of two. I knew we could agree on something. :-) 130 Edneck       ID: 115222815       Fri, Aug 12, 2005, 13:27 No problem Shakey, I like to make you happy!! 131 Shak       ID: 481029813       Fri, Aug 12, 2005, 13:42 I have spent the better part of this morning reading up about the TO circus because I just can't get enough. Since the Iggles have already said they won't trade him, these seem to be the options: 1) Fine him. 2) Suspend him. 3) Send him home (ala Keyshawn). 4) Cut him. The first option is to fine him for $1.8M for breach of contract (detrimental conduct, skipping mandatory off-season minicamps, etc.). If he broke a rule or is insubordinate, they could suspend him for the first 4 games, which would cost him $800,00+. They could send him home with full pay. The could cut him, but they would take a huge cap hit this year and he'd be a free agent. That's a tough decision, but after seeing him on TV talking about his coaches and McNabb like that, I don't see how he can ever play for the Iggles again. Especially when he says he's done nothing wrong. What cracks me up is Michael Irvin said on ESPN that the Eagles need to work with TO and get him a new contract because instead of saving face, they will be losing their butt if they don't keep him happy. At this point, I think it's even money that the Iggles bite the bullet and just send him home. It sure doesn't look like they will get back to the SB with him because he is tearing that team apart. I, along with every other SF and Balt fan, am just loving every minute of this. About time it happens to some other team. 132 Edneck       ID: 115222815       Fri, Aug 12, 2005, 13:54 I agree, He's a Cancer. The Theatrics are getting old and Philly is best just Fining his butt until he gets with the program, or trading him ASAP. Cutting him is what he whats, McNabb is the reason the team has made the Playoffs the last few years and TO can't handle not being the sole star of the team, anyone who stands in front of his camera time is a enemy. 133 Superclydes       ID: 63402814       Fri, Aug 12, 2005, 13:57 Philly can talk the big talk all they want, but without T.O. they will NOT make it to the big dance. Westbrook is good, underrated if you ask me, but they have no other WR's. He is the best chance they have. Not saying they need to stroke his ego, not sure anyone can get that high to touch it, but they won't go much of anywhere without him and he knows this. I am sure that was "mentioned" to Andy Reid from T.O. himself. Personally if I were an owner, I would just let him sit. From a financial point of view, I would do the least to accomodate him. He is just too good to let him sit the entire season. 134 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Fri, Aug 12, 2005, 14:51 Shak,, You want justice, how about trading T O to Detroit for oh lets just say Rodgers and a mid draft pick and then let Garcia and Mooch kick his ass to the curb. 135 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Fri, Aug 12, 2005, 16:37 SC,, I think your right about Phili not making the big show but I can't help but think a season long, no pay suspension is the way to go. I think the Phili fans would understand it. I just think a message has to be sent to the rest of the super stars. There is no player bigger than the game. It is unimaginable too me the number of rookies that aren't signed. What in the world are they thinking. Again this is where a rookie salary cap would help. 136 RBP       ID: 2962315       Fri, Aug 12, 2005, 18:22 I'd like to briefly chime in. This T.O. business makes me sick. I like to think of myself as a team player whether it's in sports, around the house or at work. This TO situation just makes me SICK! I'm so sick of the childish way he and that Snake Rosenhaus has handled this whole thing. TO wants to be treated like a man huh? Well a man in the "work force" who acted like he is would be FIRED! "Wah wah wah, treat me like a man or I'll cry and bitch and moan until I get my way or make you wish you would", hey T.O. SHUT UP! Yes I said SHUT UP, I'm sick of seeing your face and hearing your mouth. I like the good things in sports and you represent all that is wrong. Stepping off of the soap box now. 137 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Fri, Aug 12, 2005, 18:44 Amen brother. The good thing about all this is, he takes up so much TV time, the owners that depend on TV to get their FF info are screwed. AHHHHHH... Almost game time. The lawn is mowed, the wife went to her mothers in Iowa, and it is just me and the NFL network. 55 games in 22 days. I am ready for some football... You CF fanatics?? Have you heard the NCAA new rule? If you have a native American team name, you can not use it in any NCAA tourny. Our country has lost their damn minds. There are way more important issues to work out; especially in the NCAA. I had my email read last week on Fox and Friends. The question was, what would be a new name for Florida State. FS Criminals of course. Now they are supposidly after U South Carolina. Does the name Gamecoc offend anyone or is the crowd screaming "COCS, COCS, COCS?? 138 RBP       ID: 2962315       Fri, Aug 12, 2005, 20:47 Fox and friends? Wow I'm impressed (really). This campaign in America for 100% Political correctness has to stop. Maybe I'm uneducated on the whole thing but are Native Americans protesting at NCAA games? Soon you will not be allowed to name your team after a tree because it might hurt the trees feelings. What about PETA? Aren't they the ones pushing the GameCock issue? I'm pretty sure in La. it's still legal to cock fight, at least a friend of mine from there says it is as he was at a fight on leave 2 weeks ago! I would like to continue on my rant but I'll stop it right there. I will close with the fact that I'm sick of watching the news and sick of watching SC. I'm going golfing later today, hopefully I don't offend any "birdies" as I celebrate in bringing the course to it's knees. PETA might be watching me from the jungle..... 139 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Fri, Aug 12, 2005, 21:06 Well there went Grossman. Poor guy couldn't make it through the second preseason game. I kind of feel sorry for him. 140 Shak       ID: 165532722       Fri, Aug 12, 2005, 22:59 Yup, gotta drop Mushin down a few spots too. Can Benson play QB? 141 Joe       ID: 4652283       Sat, Aug 13, 2005, 06:25 As a devout Eagles fan I believe it is time for me to put in my two euro cents. Six months ago TO had the city of Philly and all of the Eagles fans wrapped around his pinky. I was one of them, now I have changes 179 degrees (I will keep one degree open just in case). The worst thing about this whole situation, away from the problems this is making for the team is that he has proved Skip Clueless Bayless correct. I still have no respect for Bayless; he is so Anti TO it gets me sick…. After all he said that Randy Moss is a saint compared to T.O. As far as this season goes, with or without TO we are still the cream of the crop in the NFC and still one of the top teams in all of NFL. And will (knock on wood, I actually knocked on wood...really) return to the SB this year. I hear and see people writing about all these injuries we are suffering and still see that we are better off then just about every team in the NFL. I see there are Buckhalter injury problems…check out his stats last year…. his absence was not a problem for us. I see there is no Pinkston. Now I am a Pinkston fan…regardless of his alligator arms, but I believe that an aforementioned coked out NFL analyst (MI) stated last year that Pinkston is the worst starting Wide receiver in the NFL. So that should not hurt us to bad. Now we have Greg Lewis who we just signed to a long-term deal for a reason and a high draft pick in Reggie Brown who is looking good. Don’t forget we still have Westbrook and L.J.Smith, to very important components of our West C offense that is still intact. And this McNabb fellow. Above all we still have a healthy, experienced D that everyone seems to have forgotten about led by Jevon Kearse, and Dawkins and, Jeremiah Trotter, and A SS and two CB’s that may make up the best back field in all of football. I have to get back to work so in closing, I am not really worried about TO not being there for us, he is a great boost that would improve any team’s O, but when you have a squad that has all its bases covered like the Eagles…you will see that one player is not bigger then the team. Just don’t trade him to Atlanta or the Vikings……that would suck. Oh yeah, I forgot Akers 142 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Sat, Aug 13, 2005, 07:32 Holy flippin cow!!! Someone that shares the same level of dislike for Skip Clueless as I do. Joe you are right on with Phili's situation. The only thing I see different is in terms competition. It kills me to say this but Dallas has gotten stronger. Washington and NYG talk a great story but I don't see them in contention with Phili and Dallas. There is no doubt that Phili is a stronger team with T O, Pinkton and Burkhalter butthe stat that really indicates that to me is DM TDs with out Owens. Westbrook can't be counted on to carry the load the entire season. No one can but he does tend to get knicked up. Phili does have a great D but they didn't get much younger in the off season. IMHO, Phili being a little weaker and dallas being a lot stronger and it is going to be a hell of a race to the finish. If Phili wants to win the hearts of the American public, they need to keep motor mouth off the field and let him rot a year in front of his TV. I swear if they do it, I'll go out and buy a DM jersey and start eating Cambell soup. 143 Joe       ID: 4652283       Sat, Aug 13, 2005, 09:24 FNAS...I guess I will help you out then. www.nflshop.com Reebok 2005 NFL Player Replica Jersey Team: Eagles Player Name: McNabb, Donovan Product #: 00122305 Reg. Price: $74.99 (Price may vary by size) You know where to get the soup 144 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Sat, Aug 13, 2005, 11:47 I guess we will see. I look good in green. Oh who am I kidding? I look good in everything. 145 GCobb       ID: 16631113       Sat, Aug 13, 2005, 13:42 FNAS -- Couldn't agree with you more...on Dallas being stronger and the need to let TO sit and watch all year. They need to hold the line and do a "Keyshawn" on him if they have to. I think 90% of the public would support them...although I'm not willing to fork out one penny for an Eagles jersey. :) 146 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Sat, Aug 13, 2005, 15:23 I know, I know, it's only preseason but I saw some things last night that was kind of surprising. No not Harrington. Detroit fans will tell you that is nothing new. He usually has good preseasons. Holmes was an absolute monster. Johnson wasn't that impressive against the 1st team D. The rest I can't share. Thank you direct TV. 147 RBP       ID: 2962315       Sun, Aug 14, 2005, 04:05 Good morning all.... Outstanding, turn on the volume 148 Shak       ID: 481029813       Mon, Aug 15, 2005, 10:02 Quick, I need a TO fix!! Anyone know where he was yesterday and what he did?? Did he show up at the PGA Championship?? Was he at the NASCAR race?? Did he really go to the Bahamas?? Will he make a cameo appearance in the broadcast booth tonight for the Iggles games?? Someone, help me!! 149 Shak       ID: 481029813       Mon, Aug 15, 2005, 13:22 Awful quiet around here. What time are we starting the draft on Sunday? 150 Edneck       ID: 115222815       Mon, Aug 15, 2005, 15:44 I think some people are busy conducting drafts? I get the feeling this one will take forever...any chance of everyone being available for a four hour window to knock this thing out quick? 151 RBP       ID: 2962315       Mon, Aug 15, 2005, 16:44 I'm worried too. I'll post my pick early Sunday morning local time which will be late Saturday night in the US. 152 Shak       ID: 481029813       Mon, Aug 15, 2005, 17:56 With two drafts going on at the same time, it probably will take longer than last year, but I think four hours is a little too extreme with people in many different time zones. We did fine last year, so I'm not too worried -- just anxious. We could gradually ratchet down the time limit if it starts to drag on. FYI, LT plays on Sunday afternoon (21st) and Alexander on MNF (22nd). 153 RBP       ID: 246551918       Mon, Aug 15, 2005, 18:42 Shak who you taking? 154 Shak       ID: 481029813       Mon, Aug 15, 2005, 18:47 Would you believe me if I said I'm still not certain. If I knew for certain I could get DD with my 2nd round pick, I'd take Payton. I don't want to get stuck with Fragile Freddy for my #1 RB. 155 RBP       ID: 246551918       Mon, Aug 15, 2005, 20:18 You WILL NOT get Double D in round 2. 156 Superclydes       ID: 36371321       Mon, Aug 15, 2005, 22:23 There is no way we can get everyone online at the same time. We should be ok as long as we all pay attention and send short lists if away from the computer when your pick is coming up. Scotty, can you gen up an e-mail with all of the pertinent info to everyone in the league? This way we all have their e-mails and can flood their inboxes with spam if they don't pick quick enough:o) 157 RBP       ID: 2962315       Mon, Aug 15, 2005, 22:33 yes i do/can 158 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Tue, Aug 16, 2005, 05:53 SC, Why is that? Is it the deployed guys? 159 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Tue, Aug 16, 2005, 20:23 Draft boards ready. Start the clock. 160 Superclydes       ID: 36371321       Tue, Aug 16, 2005, 20:57 I am assuming you are talking about all of us on line at the same time. With everyone working different shifts, different time zones and even different days, it just won't happen. Not to mention anything else we all have going on in our lives. 161 FNAS       ID: 475182816       Tue, Aug 16, 2005, 22:10 Cool, I was just asking. I'm in 3 other leagues with people all over the world and we get it done on Sportsline. Don't matter too me how long this takes. That's why I was asking. I wasn't invited to that NASCAR league this year. You aren't still carrying a grudge for the whoopin, right? 162 Superclydes       ID: 36371321       Tue, Aug 16, 2005, 22:29 No grudge, never. The guy who ran it isn't doing the league this year or ever again. He is concentrating on other things I heard. No worries, this one can take all of the time it needs until opening day that is. 163 FNAS       ID: 357201720       Wed, Aug 17, 2005, 21:20 I guess everyone is saving their energy for this weekend. I'll be up all night after this starts or at least to a point where I realize that someones got it slowed up. 164 RBP       ID: 246551918       Wed, Aug 17, 2005, 21:31 Calm before the storm. My computer monitor at home just died last night so I'm trying to gamplan a fix (it is a faily new monitor). 165 FNAS       ID: 357201720       Wed, Aug 17, 2005, 21:55 Can you hook up to the TV and use it as a monitor? 166 STB       ID: 9701611       Wed, Aug 17, 2005, 22:43 Too much to read for a guy that is has been busy for 4-5 years running. However, I did see The Bus(A Notre Dame Alumn I might add) mentioned so I would like to see some opinions on a question: Does Jerome Bettis deserve to be in the HOF? I say yes, now (i know i will regret this) can I get your expert opinions? 167 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Wed, Aug 17, 2005, 23:09 5th all-time in rushing yards and 12th for rushing TD's. He deserves it and easily makes it. Same with Curtis Martin, Marshal Faulk, Eddie George, and Corey Dillon when they retire. Bust 10K yards and you are in. Okay, Dillon is around 9700 yards, but unless he gets hurt he will go over 10K this year. 168 STB       ID: 9701611       Wed, Aug 17, 2005, 23:14 I agree with Martin and Faulk, not sure if George and Dillon get in... u could be right though. 169 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Wed, Aug 17, 2005, 23:19 Dillon still has a couple thousand yards in him, so when he hangs them up I think his rushing totals will speak for themselves. 170 harmonj       ID: 24645289       Thu, Aug 18, 2005, 12:47 I agree. No way eddie George gets into the hall. He may have the yardage totals, but what else? Corey Dillon is pushing it too. Today's running backs just aren't like the previous great backs (emmit, Barry, marcus allen). 171 RBP       ID: 2962315       Thu, Aug 18, 2005, 15:42 I think you have to have been the dominate player of your era to get HoF consideration. Or you could be very good over a very long time, like CuMAr. So of those players discussed I'd vote for Faulk, maybe CuMar then the rest get left out. I say maybe CuMar because when I think of him I do not think HoF. Faulk I do. 172 FNAS       ID: 357201720       Thu, Aug 18, 2005, 16:27 George no. Faulk Yes, CuMar yes but not first year. Faulk's numbers and Super Bowl is auto. Martin's 13,500 + yards rushing, 3,200 + recieving, 95 total TDs and a trip to the Super bowl with NE and an AFC east Champ with the Jets should be enough to get him in simply because those where very average teams. OK, I have to give Parcell's his props but the HoF has a history of taking a key player along with a great coach if they spent a lot of time together. 173 TB       ID: 5809511       Thu, Aug 18, 2005, 16:58 So, if Tenessee got a couple more yards and George's team wins the Superbowl, while the Faulk-led Rams end up losing, does that somehow change their HOF chances? This isn't baseball, other than Namath who has crappy stats, football players get in based on their individual stats. Bettis- 100% sure Faulk- 100% sure Curtis Martin- 100% sure George- His career numbers put him near the top and I would vote him in Dillon- Once he breaks 10K he is in and that should be NLT week 5 of this season. Great RB on some crappy Cincy teams, has his SB ring with NE, and without looking I am thinking he led the AFC in rushing at least once. 174 FNAS       ID: 357201720       Thu, Aug 18, 2005, 17:21 "George his career stats put him near the top". OK he is like 16 all time in rushing yards and will continue to fall as others pass. For TDs he has only 78 total which puts him somewhere around 25th all time. Ricky Watters has better stats so is he a shoe in to the HoF? If putting someone in the HoF is based on stats, how do O line get in? The thing about George that I think hurts him is his TD numbers. I did change my mind after really looking at his stats and those that are in the HoF now. He may get in but it won't be 1st or 2nd time eligible. 175 RBP       ID: 2962315       Thu, Aug 18, 2005, 17:26 I can't see Bettis in the HoF, at least not yet. CuMar I think is close based on shear numbers but he didn't dominate in his era. If your not elite at your position when you are playing then it is harder to make the case for the Hall IMO. I'm a huge George fan but I also do not see him in the Hall. The Hof is for the elite of the elite, not the very very good. My 2 cents. 176 FNAS       ID: 357201720       Thu, Aug 18, 2005, 17:50 Scott, Martin is 4th, Bettis is 5th all time is rushing yards. Bettis was the Pit O for many years. If EC is in, Bettis goes. Same style and Bettis lasted longer. What about Franco Harris? Was he an elite player in his time? Bettis has more yards and TDs. I think it is based more on total contribution to the game (on and off the field), contribution to the team they were on, and stats combined. Yes? No? 177 FNAS       ID: 357201720       Thu, Aug 18, 2005, 17:56 . x-Emmitt Smith, Arizona 18,355 2. Walter Payton 16,726 3. Barry Sanders 15,269 4. x-Curtis Martin, NY Jets 13,366 5. x-Jerome Bettis, Pittsburgh 13,294 6. Eric Dickerson 13,259 7. Tony Dorsett 12,739 8. Jim Brown 12,312 9. Marcus Allen 12,243 10. Franco Harris 12,120 11. Thurman Thomas 12,074 12. x-Marshall Faulk, St. Louis 11,987 13. John Riggins 11,352 14. O.J. Simpson 11,236 15. Ricky Watters 10,643 16. x-Eddie George, Dallas 10,441 17. Ottis Anderson 10,273 18. x-Corey Dillon, New England 9,696 19. Earl Campbell 9,407 20. Terry Allen 8,614 TDs 1. x-Jerry Rice, Seattle 207 2. x-Emmitt Smith, Arizona 175 3. Marcus Allen 144 4. x-Marshall Faulk, St. Louis 135 5. Cris Carter 130 6. Jim Brown 126 7. Walter Payton 125 8. John Riggins 116 9. Lenny Moore 111 10. Barry Sanders 109 11. Don Hutson 102 12. x-Tim Brown, Tampa Bay 101 Steve Largent 101 14. Franco Harris 100 15. x-Terrell Owens, Phil. 97 x-Marvin Harrison, Ind. 97 17. Eric Dickerson 96 18. x-Curtis Martin, NY Jets 95 19. Jim Taylor 93 20. Ricky Watters 91 I was wrong about Bettis beating Harris in TDs. Still doesn't change my mind. Especially compared to EC and you know I LUV YA BLUE 178 FNAS       ID: 357201720       Thu, Aug 18, 2005, 18:07 This one is better. side by side. Player Yards Player TD ------ ------ -- Emmitt Smith * 18355 Emmitt Smith * 164 Walter Payton 16726 Marcus Allen 123 Barry Sanders 15269 Walter Payton 110 Curtis Martin * 13366 Jim Brown 106 Jerome Bettis * 13294 John Riggins 104 Eric Dickerson 13259 Marshall Faulk * 100 Tony Dorsett 12739 Barry Sanders 99 Jim Brown 12312 Franco Harris 91 Marcus Allen 12243 Eric Dickerson 90 Franco Harris 12120 Curtis Martin * 85 Thurman Thomas 12074 Jim Taylor 83 Marshall Faulk * 11987 Jerome Bettis * 82 John Riggins 11352 Ottis Anderson 81 O.J. Simpson 11236 Priest Holmes * 80 Ricky Watters 10643 Ricky Watters 78 Eddie George * 10441 Tony Dorsett 77 Ottis Anderson 10273 Pete Johnson 76 Corey Dillon * 9696 Leroy Kelly 74 Earl Campbell 9407 Earl Campbell 74 Terry Allen 8614 Terry Allen 73 179 RBP       ID: 246551918       Thu, Aug 18, 2005, 20:01 Ok, let me clarify. I was brief before because I was short on time. I think you get in one of two ways. Long productive career or short Ultra-Productive career. I also caveat with the "elite/dominating" player of your era to weed out players who played in systems or eras where great numbers were hard to put up. So Jim Brown is the classic short career "Ultra-productive" poster child. Remember back in the day they only played 14 game seasons so I try to keep that in mind. Brown was also the dominate back of his era so while his numbers are getting passed I think "we" start to lose focus on how really good he was. He is probably a bad example for caompaison sakes to see if Bettis and CuMar deserve to be in. A better point of reference would be the "worst" HoF RB if you can call him that. I'd like to be the worst RB ever inducted into the Hall :-) I'm starting to warm up to the Bettis in the Hall talk, one thing I like about him is that as he is starting to fade away at the end of his career he's doing it in style and with class--qualities that are very underated nowadays. CuMar? Looks like he has already posted HoF type totals, and something I tend to forget with him is that he has played well for a long time which is very hard to do. I think I read that the average NFL career for a RB is 2 years? So to take the pounding for all of those years and still be productive is a testament to how good he really is. To summarize-- Faulk gets in no doubt about it. TD, rushing and recieving yards along with being "Ultra-Productive" for about 4 years makes him a lock. CuMar gets in based on a very long productive career. CuMar has been teh work horse on Championship quality teams throughout his career. Bettis gets in based on a very long and productive career. He has also been (as Chuck stated) the OFFENSE for the Steelers for a few years when they played great Defense and smash mouth football. The rest do not get in, not yet. 180 FNAS       ID: 357201720       Thu, Aug 18, 2005, 20:10 Scott, I am guilty of this as well but why in the hell doesn't martin get the props he deserves. I ask myself that every year. He plays in the biggest market, led the league in yards or is near the top every year and the poor guy just doesn't get any credit. 181 RBP       ID: 246551918       Thu, Aug 18, 2005, 20:22 Not enough self promotion I guess. Not enough scandals/wife beatings/mrijuana smoking etc. Guys who quietly do there time as team players seem to be forgotten I guess, instead of embraced. I blame it on our "look at me" society. What can you do for ME attitude we keep seeing. On a side note I was laughing watching SC last night listening to Ray Ray and Peyton say they are sick of TO. I am too, so sick and tired of hearing about this ragged out story. On another side note Skip Bayless is the biggest idiot this side of Trev Alberts and Mark May. Absolute idiot I tell ya. 182 GCobb       ID: 387201918       Thu, Aug 18, 2005, 20:29 I'm late to this discussion but I'll add my two cents. Faulk -- Yes. Tons of stats, dominant in his era, SB doesn't hurt. Martin -- Eventually. Tons of stats, but not dominant in his era. Bettis -- Eventually. Tons of stats, dominant early. Very likeable guy and that helps I think. George -- No. I haven't looked it up, but my impression is his yard per carry are poor. Lots of opportunities does not equal great. Plus, I just can't get over watching him cower to the Ravens. Ray smacked him in the mouth once and he tucked tail. Not HOF in my book. FNAS -- Agree with most of what you posted with one caveat on post 176. Nobody had the same style as Earl. Nobody. Snot flew when Earl ran the ball. Don't see that type of power a pure violence from Bettis. 183 RBP       ID: 246551918       Thu, Aug 18, 2005, 20:59 Big powerful violent backs usually don't last too long, but they sure are fun to watch. Hey I like the passing game as much as anybody but nothing is better than running it down the other teams throat in the 4th and they cannot stop you. You know what I'm saying, grinding out 4-5 yards per carry, the D knows your going to run, they stack teh box and you still get 5 yards! "3 yards and a cloud of dust" will always hold a place in my heart. 184 FNAS       ID: 357201720       Thu, Aug 18, 2005, 21:25 Did you see where Moss admitted on a HPO interveiw that he has smoked pot during his NFL career and hinted that he still does now and again? OK here is where I'm confused?? It starts with Ricky,, smoking pot is illegal right? When they pop off on national TV admitting to it, why isn't there ass arrested? 185 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Thu, Aug 18, 2005, 22:45 5th amendment maybe? You say 16th in NFL history like that is way down the list. They have been keeping rushing records since 1932 and he is 16th in the entire history of the game. Last year was his 9th in the league and he sucked. But, in his first 8 years he managed to rush for over 10,000 yards and receive another 2200 yards, starting 128 straight games (16x8). That means he averaged over 1500 yards a year (rushing and receiving) for his first 8 years. That is better than just okay. 186 RBP       ID: 246551918       Thu, Aug 18, 2005, 23:54 He is a Warrior, I'll give EG that. Great Senior season as a Buckeye when he won the Heisman too. 187 FNAS       ID: 357201720       Fri, Aug 19, 2005, 06:04 TB, I think you you compile the Yards, TDs and contributions to the team, he comes up short. He did have McNair's help in getting to the SB. SO like I said in 174, he's got a chance. What's your beef? In 174 I changed my opinion to no for a 1sr or 2nd ballot. GC,, I said same style, not nastyness. I can't remember seeing Bettis ever juke anyone. 188 GCobb       ID: 16631113       Fri, Aug 19, 2005, 10:16 Nastynes is style. My point is Bettis doesn't run with the same kind of power or pure brute force that EC did. That's not a knock because I haven't seen anybody else run like EC either. Never saw Bo Jackson juke anybody, but his style isn't similar to EC or Bettis...he just ran by or through (in Bosworth's case) people. 189 GCobb       ID: 16631113       Fri, Aug 19, 2005, 10:20 BTW, wouldn't it be fun to have a young, healthy Bo Jackson available in FFootball today? That dude was freakish. 190 GCobb       ID: 16631113       Fri, Aug 19, 2005, 10:22 Only a couple days until we kick this thing off. I've got my lists compiled and ready to go. Hoping to last longer than 2 weeks this time. 191 FNAS       ID: 357201720       Fri, Aug 19, 2005, 15:39 OK whatever. I give you win. 192 TB       ID: 5809511       Fri, Aug 19, 2005, 15:49 I was just playing devil's advocate. I don't care one way or the other about George getting in. =) 193 FNAS       ID: 357201720       Fri, Aug 19, 2005, 16:22 Sorry TB,,I was talking to GC. 194 Shak       ID: 481029813       Fri, Aug 19, 2005, 16:24 I have a question for general consumption. Do you watch for runs (especially QB runs) and draft accordingly, or do you stick to your game plan (and draft a QB(s) as you had planned? 195 FNAS       ID: 357201720       Fri, Aug 19, 2005, 16:39 Stick to game plan but try to plan for where the runs are likely to start. Pretty damn hard in this format so it will be nothing more than a WAG. 196 RBP       ID: 2962315       Fri, Aug 19, 2005, 16:59 Going to wing in, as usual. REally hard to project what 17 owners will do. I do recall someone taking 3 QB's once, maybe even last year which really screwed guys like me who waited late to get a back up QB. Got stuck with Rivers...... 197 Shak       ID: 481029813       Fri, Aug 19, 2005, 17:09 Scott, I know you aren't a slave to runs as evidenced by your pick during the great QB run of last year. Prior to your 6th round pick, 12 out of the previous 15 picks were QBs, but you resisted the run and took D. Foster. I think if you are caught on the tail end of a massive run like that, you are better to wait. Only two QBs were taken before you selected your backup 3 rounds later (Q. Carter and Rattay). If only you would have taken Muhammad instead of Foster, you could have won it all. :-) 198 Edneck       ID: 115222815       Fri, Aug 19, 2005, 18:30 Scott I knew the Pimpster could not take Manning #1. I don't want to hear why! Shak said he'd believe it when it happened...LT hard to turn down!! Runs...not that important unless your sitting on the backend and you have no QB. 199 TB       ID: 5809511       Fri, Aug 19, 2005, 18:47 I was replying to your post 187, FNAS. No beef, just enjoying the discussion. Manning is going to stink it up week 1 against Baltimore. It would suck to move up to draft him first and be the first dude off the rock. 200 Edneck       ID: 115222815       Fri, Aug 19, 2005, 19:06 Just watch the tape on how NE deals with Manning and try and duplicate it. Yeah' but if you get bye week 1 then you could be sitting pretty for the rest of the season. It just makes me laugh, Scotty, all the talking manning up and the numbers are much greater then LT stuff...LOL, you can't change a leopards spots...HE HE 201 Softunderbelly       ID: 165532722       Fri, Aug 19, 2005, 22:50 Week 1 or week 15, it's all the same. After week 1, Manning owners will also have to worry about a bye in week 8 and @NE week 9. How about this four game stretch for LT owners: @NE, Pitt, @Oak, @Phil. Ok, Oakland doesn't scare anyone, but the other three are tough! 202 RBP       ID: 2962315       Fri, Aug 19, 2005, 22:52 Ed you nailed it. Came down to this (if you care). I know I can get a decent QB in the middle rounds if I take LT #1. I WILL end up with a "bad" #1 RB if I go Manning #1 then a RB. If I picked 1-36-37 I would have no problem taking Manning then pair up two nice RB's but my next pick in round 3 is 50 somthing. I admit I didn't think it all the way through. I think Shak will/could take Manning #1 and get a solid RB in round #2, thus for him Manning and teh security he provides is very hard to pass up. 203 STB       ID: 07491919       Sat, Aug 20, 2005, 01:58 When logging on to the site(s), how can i see which pick I have for each league? 204 Superclydes       ID: 63402814       Sat, Aug 20, 2005, 03:13 Tim, if you go to the main page, leave your cursor under reports, go to league, then draft and it will show when everyone has to pick and who has predrafted. Took me awhile to find that one, but I knew it was out there from previous years. 205 STB       ID: 07491919       Sat, Aug 20, 2005, 03:42 Thanks Mike 206 RBP       ID: 2962315       Sat, Aug 20, 2005, 03:49 "reports, go to league, then draft" Yup that's it, everybody ready? We'll see. 207 Edneck       ID: 115222815       Sat, Aug 20, 2005, 06:29 Scotty just teasing you. You were trying to talk yourself into Manning and all the Fiber in your body said LT...nothing wrong with that. Shak is all doom and cloom...always courting the demise of some pretty good players? 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