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Subject: Rotoguru Auction League '07-'08, discussion thread
Posted by: sarge33rd
- [76442923] Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 12:15
Copy/paste of the roster requirements, scoring used last year. I'll be looking into a couple of hosting sites this week, so that we can finalize both a site selection and the actual scoring capacities as supported by that site.
Unless otherwise decided herein, the team salary cap for the SEASON, will remain at $200. Rosters will remain at 16, with the ability to place 1 player max on "injured" status. (10 starters, 5 bench and 1 open spot for "injured").
Roster Positions:
Starters
QB, WR, WR, RB, RB, TE, W/T, W/R, K, DEF,
Reserves
BN, BN, BN, BN, BN, BN (last for injured only)
Stat Categories:
Passing Yards
(25 yards per point {.04 pts per yard}; 3 points at 300 yards)
Passing Touchdowns (4)
Interceptions (-2)
Rushing Yards
(10 yards per point {.1 points per yard} ; 3 points at 100 yards)
Rushing Touchdowns (6)
Reception Yards
(10 yards per point {.1 points per yard}; 3 points at 100 yards)
Reception Touchdowns (6)
2-Point Conversions (2)
Fumbles Lost (-2)
Offensive Fumble Return TD (6)
Field Goals
0-19 Yards (3)
20-29 Yards (3)
30-39 Yards (3)
40-49 Yards (4)
50+ Yards (5)
Field Goals Missed
0-19 Yards (-2)
20-29 Yards (-1)
30-39 Yards (0)
40-49 Yards (0)
50+ Yards (0)
Point After Attempt Made (1)
Point After Attempt Missed (-1)
Sack (1)
Interception (2)
Fumble Recovery (2)
Touchdown (6)
Safety (2)
Block Kick (3)
Points Allowed
0 points (18)
1-6 points (15)
7-13 points (12)
14-20 points (9)
21-27 points (5)
28-34 points (0)
35+ points (-4)
Fractional Points: Yes
Negative Points: Yes
***********************************************
Points of discussion:
Roster Freeze:
I want to make this as flexible as possible. Hopefully, the hosting site will allow us to select "Game Time" or "Kick-Off" as a freeze for players in that game. If not, then as short a time prior to Kick-Off as the site will allow. I'd like for the freeze, to apply only to those players whose teams are playing at the time. ie, C Johnson isnt playing ion the early game on Sunday but rather on Monday night. Therefore, assuming you had another WR in Mondays game, you would be able to move between the two of them, up until the last couple of minutes before kick-off. I think we would all prefer to see it done this way and unless there are objections, thats how I'll try and set it up.
Bid Process:
This is such an integral part of this leagues "format", that with apologies, the $5 fine almost HAS to remain and HAS to be levied when called for by the rules.
I will name 8 players to "The Board". Generally, these 8 players come from rds 3 and/or 4, of various mock drafts posted by fantasy football websites. Solid Nr 2 RBs/WRs, strong 2nd tier QB or maybe weak 1st tier, etc etc. Nobody you necessarily DONT want, but nobody you necessarily jump all over either. The bidding will then begin.
Once a player has gone 8 hours without a bid being placed for them, (as established by the rotoguru timestamp for the last submitted bid), then that players is deemed to have been "signed" by the bidding manager. The bid monies are removed from that managers available salary cap, and that player isplaced on that managers roster. The winning manager, can then name a new player to "The Board". This act of naming a player, carries with it a minimum $1 bid BY the naming manager. (Exceptions: If the naming manager cannot win that player, then no such bid accompanies the naming of the player. We must for ex, start 10 specific positions. If you are down to 3 open roster slots and name a player who does not occupy one of those slots, then no bid accompanies the naming of the player.) The naming manager is allowed to bid more than $1 when placing a player on "The Board". The $1, is simply the minimum bid.
Managers are independently responsible for tracking their bids and available monies. (Trust me guys, there will be others tracking this, so dont get caught bidding more money than you have.) Illegal bids, (defined as bids which cannot be won....bidding on a player for whom you have no roster space available, or bidding more money in total than you have available), will result in said bids being negated AND the offending managers available money being reduced by a $5 fine. Multiple violations will result in multiple fines. Currently open bids, ARE counted against your available monies, unless/until someone outbids you on a currently open bid.
Ex:
I have no players signed yet, so my full $200 is mine. I have open bids on 6 players, amounting to $125. LT gets nominated to the board, along with TO. I place "bump bids" of $45 and $30 respectively. The second bid, of $30 for TO, is an illegal bid. Were I to win ALL currently open bids, my entire $200 would be spent but only 8 roster spots would have been filled. This results in m,y TO bid being negated AND my total monies being reduced to $195. By the same token, were I to have bid in that same example, $45 and $23, this would total $193 and make 8 roster spots being bid upon. Leaves $7 for 7 slots. A legal bid. Make the TO bid $24, and I have insufficient money to fill my roster and the bid is illegal.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE ask questions and ensure that you are fully familiar with how it works. In each of the past two seasons, managers have been repeatedly fined during the auction. I dont want to fine managers, but the money management aspect of this league is a HUGE part of its uniqueness. I honestly would LOVE to go through the auction, and have had to fine NOBODY.
Free Agents:
In the past, we have gone reverse order of standings. F/A's, carried an arbitrary price of $5 ea.Players dropped PRIOR to Kick-Off wk 6 (1st game of that week), "refunded" 1/2 rounded down, of their salary as cap relief. Players dropped after Kick-Off of the 1st game in week 6, provided NO cap relief. (They still got pd their full salary.)
Ex: Last year, I bid for and got A Green RB GB for $10. This was precisely what I had hoped for. I didnt figure him to be "good" all season, but hoped he'd manage through week 5. I would then drop him, get $5 relief and use that $5 to take a F/A RB replacement. I did just that, taking M Barber RB Dal.
Injury Priority:
In the two previous years, I believe I am the only one who used this option. I did so last year, when McNabb went down and I took Romo off the waiver wire.
Injury Priority, automatically enables the claiming manager to jump to the "head of the line" as it were, for F/A selection. (Assuming no other manager is also claiming said priority. If another is making such a claim, then the claiming managers will all go the the head of the line, and execute their selections in reverse order of standing.)
A F/A taken as a result of claiming Injury Priority MUST be of the same position as the player you are putting into your injured slot, or are dropping. This F/A MUST be started, in the 1st game following their acquisition. That starting requirement and the positional requirement, are the price you pay in return for the right to jump ahead of other managers in the F/A process.
That is how it has worked over the past 2 years of the league. As are all "rules", it is open to discussion.
Managers are free to spend as much or as little of their $200 during the auction as they see fit. That flexibility, is to me a huge attraction to the league. You want to go cheap and just violate the F/A pool all year? You can try that. You want to spend 75% of your budget on 2 guys, and pray they dont get hurt? You can do that too. (Frick did, and won the league title last year with LT and LJ as RBs.) You want to spend your entire $200 on your initial roster and ignore F/As? That option too is yours, if you care to try it.
15 roster slots MUST be occupied at all times, once the auction is finished. Managers are NOT allowed to drop players w/o an offsetting acquisition being made. The 16th slot, or 6th Bench slot, is there to provide "space" for a player whose injury may not be season ending, and whom you do not want to release into the F/A pool. They still count against your salary cap, but that open bench slot allows you to acquire 1 F/A w/o a corresponding drop of another player. (To occupy the injured roster spot, the player so designated MUST be officially listed as "Unlikely" or worse, as for their status with the NFL.) Once this player is no longer so listed officially, they come out of that open roster slot, and a player MUST be dropped to bring the active roster within the limits of 15 players. The manager can drop the previously injured player, or any other player they choose, provided they maintain sufficient numbers of players to occupy each of the 10 required starting positions each week. (No, a TE cannot be started in the K slot.)
********************************************
Thats about all I can think of at the moment. It looks at present as though we have 11 managers and are in need of 1 more.
Welcome to those of you who are joining us for the first time, and welcome back to those of you who are returning to our little party.
Returning Managers:
Frick
Wiggs
Youngroman
Beezer
Wolfer
Jackhammers
Sarge33rd
Potential New Managers:
DWetzel (confirmed IN)
GolfFreak (confirmed IN)
Kyle
Slowhand (confirmed IN)
Good luck to all!
Sarge |
| 1 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Fri, Jul 13, 2007, 10:11
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4 days and no comments? Am I to interpret that to mean...we'll just leave things as they have been? :)
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| 2 | DWetzel at library
ID: 226541311
Fri, Jul 13, 2007, 12:56
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Honestly... looks fine to me! :)
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| 3 | The Beezer
Leader
ID: 191202817
Fri, Jul 13, 2007, 13:11
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I've been away so I'm just now getting to this. I would like to discuss changing the free agent purchase price to a bidding process similar to the draft. Rather than $5 for each free agent, managers that want a player should be able to bid up to their maximum to do so, with a minimum bid of $X (I'd prefer 1 but am open to alternatives).
To reduce administrative burden due to this change, bids would be processed in two cycles: up to Wednesday at noon Eastern, with players awarded by midnight Thursday, and Saturdays.
Thoughts?
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| 4 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Fri, Jul 13, 2007, 13:46
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My only concern with an auction process for F/A, is implementation. The best way I have seen/read of, was a single "blind bid" process. The problem is, I am a participating commish. It would be emminently unfair for me to have access to others bids in that case, as it would be emminently unfair for me to have bid first every week. (This would either create the burden of bidding earlier than injury reports come out..consistently OR create a bottleneck at the cutoff time for bid submissions.)
My problem with an open F/A bidding process, (similar to our initial auction draft), is the shortened time frame available every week and the fact that at least one manager is in Europe and thus on an entirely different time-frame inherently, than are the rest of us.
If we can find solutions to those dilemmas, that are workable, I'd withdraw my reservations in an instant.
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| 5 | youngroman
ID: 3751268
Fri, Jul 13, 2007, 18:30
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I don't think that me living in europe will create a timing problem for me.
for example: when I look at Fanball/AOL you have these options for blind-bidding:
Automated Blind Bidding System: Any time prior to the claiming deadline, team owners place blind bids on free agents. When the claiming deadline is reached, AOL Commissioner automatically distributes players to the highest bidders.
Manual Blind Request System: This feature allows team owners to type messages to the commissioner. The commissioner sets a claiming deadline time; when the deadline time passes (and not before!), owners' messages become viewable.
The commissioner has the choice of allowing the messages to be viewable by the entire league, or just by the commissioner. Either way, the messages are not visible until the waiver wire deadline has passed.
if the commish handles injury priority prior to the bidding-deadline we can use the automatic system. when I read the options right we can even run more than 1 bidding-process, lets say on Wed and Thu noon. after that everyone is a free agent.
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| 6 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Fri, Jul 13, 2007, 21:21
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OK...I'll take a hard look at fanball/AOL as a hosting site for the league this year then. Assuming their scoring will approximate what we want (I REALLY want the fractional points. Makes every yard count), then we can go that route.
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| 7 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Fri, Jul 13, 2007, 21:29
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AOL appears to be free, while fanball is $60. I'll agree in an instant that $60 is cheap enough, but this league has always been free to play. If we can get what we are looking for and keep it free, I'd prefer that I think.
I'm going to go ahead and start an account with each (fanball has a 2 week trial period), so I can check them out as to scoring options, F/A handling etc etc.
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| 8 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Fri, Jul 13, 2007, 21:33
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I'll need owner names and emails to setup the league. So I'll need everyone in the league, to email me at:
sarge33rd@hotmail.com
PLEASE put "auction league 2007" in your subject line, so I dont inadvertantly think its spam and delete your email.
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| 9 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Fri, Jul 13, 2007, 22:38
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I'm liking the AOL site...
freezes for each player would be 5 minutes prior to that players game.
Gives us the option of a "cant cut list". My thinking on this, is that it would be upto each individual manager as to whether or not they have such a player. IF we did this, I'd suggest that ONLY the most expensive player on any given team could be so named...cant cut. In return, you would get an immediate $5 in cap relief. Why? Cause if that player suffered a season ending injury in game 1...too bad. You cannot cut him, and you would not recoup 50% of his salary. NOR can you drop him from your roster. Meaning...he occupies one of your 5 bench slots (or your lone I/R slot for the whole year) AND you get to keep paying him.
So...do we want to allow this option...or no?
Also...do we want to use the idea of 3 divisions, with 2 games vs each division foe and 1 vs everyone else for the regular season? (14 games...would make playoffs happen in weeks 15 and 16. Each division champ plus 1 wild card team into the playoffs.)
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| 10 | DWetzel
ID: 45301312
Fri, Jul 13, 2007, 23:52
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I'd say skip the can't cut list.
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| 11 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Sat, Jul 14, 2007, 11:19
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We still have room for one more manager btw. 11 of us in, would REALLY like to have 12 so that each of the 3 divisions has 4 teams in it.
Playoffs would be weeks 14 and 15. Each div winner plus 1 wildcard team.
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| 12 | The Beezer
Leader
ID: 191202817
Sat, Jul 14, 2007, 13:52
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Second DWetzel. I guess if you wanted to offer it as optional for each manager, I have no issues with it, but I don't plan to use it and if it generates any overhead at all, I say skip it.
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| 13 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Sat, Jul 14, 2007, 15:28
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4 emails rcvd thanks.
I'm flying out tonight and wont be back until Mon. Intend to have invites sent by Tue night, so that all can at least review the AOL site and give their opinions.
For the most part, I think it appears as though it will work well. IIRC, it includes one aspect we wanted but didnt want to have to pay for, and that is live scoring updates. The scoring system is HIGHLY flexible, but their scheduler doesnt do what I want, so I'll prolly use an on-line scheduler and then manually plugin our schedule.
With 3 divisions of 4 teams, play ea team in your division twice (6 games) and the other 8 teams once (8 more) puts us at wk 14 to conclude our regular season.
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| 14 | Scarecrow71
ID: 26561414
Sun, Jul 15, 2007, 12:09
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Sarge,
I'd be interested in the 12th slot if it's still available. DWetzel informed me of it. Only problem is I'll be w/out computer access from Saturday 7/21 - 7/25 and then again Sunday 8/12 - 8/15. Not sure when you were planning on having the draft occur.
Sounds like the managers would need to be pretty alert during the draft. If it doesn't work out I understand.
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| 15 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Mon, Jul 16, 2007, 10:18
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You'd be welcome to join in SC. We've had managers in the past that went w/o access for a short time. If you're willing to accept the potential handicap (or willing to allow a friend to "proxy bid" for you...just let me know who it is in advance)...and all can be worked out.
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| 16 | Scarecrow71
ID: 26561414
Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 19:42
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Sarge,
Sounds like it could be fun. I'll glady join your group of players. Hopefully I'll be around for enough of the draft to not handicap myself too much.
Either that or I can use it as my excuse when I don't win.....
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| 17 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 22:14
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lol we ALL need a good *ahem* excuse SC, and thats a better one than most. Welcome aboard!
Once I have emails from all managers, I'll send out invites.
Mine again is:
sarge33rd@hotmail.com
put "auction league 2007" in the subject line so I know not to treat the email as spam.
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| 18 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 10:35
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I have 5 emails...waiting on the other 6.
(I'll send out invites to those I have as time allows today I hope. This will give you an opportunity to sign in, explore the site, review the scoring and point out any errors I may have made in that regard.)
Also still waiting to hear on opinions re scheduling.
Setup the league with 3 4-team divisions. I have yet to assign divisions (that will be done randomly) and then set a league H2H schedule.
Essentially 2 ways of doing it...
1) Use AOLs scheduler (which does NOT automatically pit you against each of your division rivals twice)
or
2) Use an offsite scheduler and then manually plugin the season schedule.
In the 2nd case, I'd pit every team against division opponents twice and vs all others...once.
In either case, playoffs would be each division champ, plus 1 W/C team.
W/C rankings:
overall W-L record
better divisional record
H2H record if applicable, between those "tied"
total points "for"
(with our scoring going all the way to .04 pts per PaYd, I dont see any real chance for a continued tie at that stage. If there were...I'd be inclined to flip-a-coin.)
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| 19 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 12:35
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Invites sent to all whose emails were sent to me as per the above requests:
Brent
Eric
Kyle
Rick
Roger
Roman
if you're name is not on that list, its because I still need your email addy to set you up as an owner and to get an invite out to you.
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| 20 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 15:28
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Invite sent to Matt.
That makes 8 of us in.
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| 21 | DWetzel
ID: 45301312
Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 20:59
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Email sent.
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| 22 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 21:28
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invite sent DW.
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| 23 | wolfer
ID: 31314920
Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 22:18
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I sent mine this morning.
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| 24 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 23:05
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invites sent to all whose emails I have gotten so far;
wiggs
brent
kyle
rick
roger
YR
matt
dwetzel
no others have yet arrived, and I just checked thoroughly my "trash can". 77 emails in it, but none with the "auction league 2007" subject line.
sarge33rd@hotmail.com
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| 25 | DWetzel
ID: 45301312
Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 23:07
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Re: scheduling, if we're going to have 3 divisions, we may as well have everyone play in-division opponents twice, if possible.
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| 26 | Golf Freak
ID: 18447198
Thu, Jul 19, 2007, 00:12
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resent. Im in!
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| 27 | Scarecrow71
ID: 26561414
Thu, Jul 19, 2007, 08:04
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Sarge,
I checked my email last night and this morning. Didn't see any invitation. checked my spam filtered emails as well w/ no luck. Can you resend invite?
Thanks!
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| 28 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Thu, Jul 19, 2007, 09:00
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added golffreak, resent to Scarecrow
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| 29 | Slowhand-on-the-road
ID: 4645198
Thu, Jul 19, 2007, 09:58
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got the invite...I will sign up this weekend when I get home.
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| 30 | Scarecrow71
ID: 26561414
Thu, Jul 19, 2007, 13:19
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I'm in.
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| 31 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Jul 19, 2007, 13:31
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waiting on 2 more email addys. Otherwise, only 3 of those invites sent, have yet to be "accepted". Pretty good progress for 2 days IMHO.
Thanks guys!!!
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| 32 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Jul 19, 2007, 14:56
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dwowlfe...added and invite sent.
Frick, I think you're the last one. Is your email the same as last year? I still have it, if it is.
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| 33 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Fri, Jul 20, 2007, 12:13
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Wiggs, Rick and Frick...are the last three who have yet to join. All 11 invites sent (I make the 12th). 9 have logged in already...
If any of the three named above did NOT get an email invite from AOL, let me know. I'll confirm that I have the correct email, and resend.
***************************************************
Has anyone noted any discrepency in the scoring as set in AOL atm, to what was posted above? (Other than the question re Offensive Fumble Recovery) Or any other differences for that matter?
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| 34 | DWetzel at library
ID: 406162012
Fri, Jul 20, 2007, 13:28
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The only things that I see are:
The "bonus points" for reaching milestones (i.e. 300 yards passing, 100 rushing, 100 receiving)aren't there.
The blocked punt is listed at 5 points. Is this a result of being a blocked kick + turnover, or is it just an error?
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| 35 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Fri, Jul 20, 2007, 13:49
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the Pa/Ru/Re bonuses are in.
blocked punt is now 3 pts.
Thanks DW!
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| 36 | Jack Hammers
Donor
ID: 236482918
Fri, Jul 20, 2007, 13:52
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Any idea when we're going to start Sarge?
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| 37 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Fri, Jul 20, 2007, 14:08
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prettu soon. Need the other 3 managers to get logged in first.
I'd like to ensure that everyone is clear on the "rules", the bidding process, the seasons budget, etc etc.
F/A is currently setup for blind bids. At the close of the F/A bidding time, the system will automatically award players basewd on the highest bid AND deduct the funds from that teams remaining salary availability.
May call for some minor tweaking to allow for "Injury Priority" claims, acquisitions calling for salary cap relief from the dropped player, etc etc.
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| 38 | wiggs
ID: 2542623
Fri, Jul 20, 2007, 14:08
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i think we only need 1 more to sign up
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| 39 | Frick
Donor
ID: 3410101718
Fri, Jul 20, 2007, 14:11
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I'm locked out of my AOL account and can't access the e-mail to get the reset link at work. I'll hopefuly be signed up later this evening.
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| 40 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Fri, Jul 20, 2007, 14:28
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np Frick...since you didnt indicate otherwise, I'm assuming your email is the same as it was last year then.
Yep...once Frick shows as "accepted invitation", all owners will be present and accounted for.
:)
************************************************
Are there ANY questions???????
Prime points:
Roster Freeze: 5 minutes before game time, players in that game are frozen on your roster. (There was no game time freeze option. This was the latest option available.)
Salary: The $200 guys...is for the ENTIRE year. If you want to maintain the option of bidding on (and getting) F/As, then you'll need to NOT spend your full $200 in the initial roster auction.
Fines: If you submit bids, which would exceed your total $200 salary cap...those bids in violation will be discounted AND for each such bid, a $5 fine imposed. Soooooo...if you list 4 bids in a single post, and the 2nd puts you above salary cap...there will be 3 fines levied and you'll suddenly find yourself operating with a $185 cap vs everyone elses 200. PLEASE dont make this necessary!
Rosters:
10 starters, 5 bench plus 1 slot for an injured player. Injured players DO count against salary cap.
BOL to everyone!!
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| 41 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Fri, Jul 20, 2007, 23:06
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OK..we're all in....
whose up for a mock auction draft?
have to draft;
1 QB
2 RB
2 WR
1 TE
1 K
1 D
3 Bench
$100 budget
I'm thinking, this would give the new guys a "feel" for how the draft proceeds, and maybe allow the rest of us to shake off a little rust.
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| 42 | Scarecrow71
ID: 26561414
Fri, Jul 20, 2007, 23:15
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I'll have sporatic internet access starting Saturday afternoon until late Wednesday. Don't hold up anything on me, but if you don't see me for awhile you'll know.
Good luck!
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| 43 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Fri, Jul 20, 2007, 23:21
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if everyone feels "ready" for a mock, we can start one on Monday. (Auctions in the past, have stopped for the weekend from 6pm eastern on Fri, through 8 am eastern on Monday) Would start this one,(mock) Mon at 8 am, assuming thats what we want to do.
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| 44 | wiggs
ID: 2542623
Fri, Jul 20, 2007, 23:25
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lets do it
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| 45 | Slowhand
SuperDude
ID: 056744223
Fri, Jul 20, 2007, 23:32
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I'm up for it.
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| 46 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Fri, Jul 20, 2007, 23:35
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OK...will leave E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G open to questions until 6pm eastern on Sunday. About that time, I'll post a thread for a mock draft. I'll be using real player names, and each manager needs to draft as indicated above in post 41. Total budget available is $100...fines for illegal bids will be $3. (Just to give you an idea of how painful a couple fines can become.)
Suggestions for those who are new:
1) Build a spreadsheet. Track YOUR funds, outstanding bids etc...AND those of the other managers. Trust me...they are watching yours, and will leap forth in an instant if you submit an illegal bid. You need to be prepared to do the same, if they submit one.
2) Track your positions. Dont open the mock by signing 6 RBs. That would constitute an illegal roster. (2 RB plus 3 Bench = 5 max) If you have 6, you're short one of the required positions.
3) Bid process will be as indicated above in the opening post.
I'll name 12 to "The Board", on Sunday evening. This gives you a little time, to prep a chart, spreadsheet etc as needed.
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| 47 | wiggs
ID: 2542623
Sat, Jul 21, 2007, 22:23
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i just realized i will be out of town from july 30- August 5th when do we think we will be starting this?
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| 48 | wolfer
ID: 486151922
Sat, Jul 21, 2007, 22:45
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I' m also game for a mock draft.
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| 49 | wolfer
ID: 486151922
Sat, Jul 21, 2007, 22:45
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I' m also game for a mock draft.
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| 50 | Golf Freak
ID: 18447198
Fri, Aug 03, 2007, 15:50
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Will be out of town Aug 5-11 with limited ISP. Camping.
But if we start could someone please text me @ 715-630-6367. Thanks
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Post a reply to this message: (But first, how about checking out this sponsor?)
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