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Sports Challenge     CBS Sportsline     Fanball Commissioner     Sandbox     Yahoo Football     Yahoo Football Plus     Yahoo Survival Football     TX- Football 0 Subject: Rotoguru Keeper 14 Draft Discussion Posted by: leggestand - [87382018] Wed, Aug 22, 2007, 22:07 Let's talk about the draft in the appropriate forum. Please do not mention undrafted players and also feel free to begin every post with "I know Leggestand will win this league and I am only playing for second place, but I really like my pick because..." Just kidding. Only a few of you are playing for 2nd place. 1 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Wed, Aug 22, 2007, 22:14 I heart Addai this year and will keep him on my team forever. 7 years until they kick him to the curb. That's what happens when you're a start RB for the Colts. 2 leggestand       ID: 87382018       Wed, Aug 22, 2007, 22:17 Lol! 3 The Beezer       Dude       ID: 191202817       Wed, Aug 22, 2007, 22:22 I know Leggestand will win this league and I am only playing for second place, but I really like my pick because it might be the only thing keeping him from a life of raging drunkenness, or worse yet, as a Redskins fan. 4 Guru       ID: 330592710       Wed, Aug 22, 2007, 22:38 Have we discussed/decided what next year's draft order will be? Reverse standings? If so, using regular season, or playoffs? Will it snake or not? Obviously, these are not critical issues to resolve immediately, although this does potentially have a bearing on keeper decisions. 5 GoatLocker       Sustainer       ID: 060151121       Wed, Aug 22, 2007, 22:42 I would go with: Reverse Standings Regular Season No Snake Just my $.02 Cliff 6 Doug       ID: 113132214       Thu, Aug 23, 2007, 00:02 My .02 would be reverse standings of regular season... with a snake draft starting in round 3 (instead of round 2)... which gives the last place team a bit of a draft advantage (first pick in rounds 1 and 2) without over doing it (first pick in every round). 7 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Thu, Aug 23, 2007, 00:19 I normally like reverse snake draft starting in the 3rd round, based on play-offs. That's the reward for winning it all. 8 GoatLocker       Sustainer       ID: 060151121       Thu, Aug 23, 2007, 00:38 OK all, I've set my queue with three names. That way if you get going before I get up, you'll only have to wait until 5:30 my time for me to pick in the 2nd round. Cliff 9 Doug       ID: 113132214       Thu, Aug 23, 2007, 01:59 If the draft order is based on playoffs, then I'd also suggest a 4-team "Toilet Bowl" playoff for the #1 pick. Teams #9 and 10 JUST missed the playoffs... so they don't need the #1 pick really, and are probably "too good" compared to the bottom-dwellers... it wouldn't be a good fight. Although, you could do a 6-team (with a first round bye for two worst teams), but I'd prefer just 4. This provides incentive for teams to keep playing all season, even once they know they're out of the playoffs... knowing they still have to fight for that #1 pick at the end of the year. Toilet Bowl winner gets #1, after that it goes to standings... so the worst team is guaranteed #2 pick if they don't win the Toilet Bowl playoff. I just have seen too many keeper leagues where the bottom-dweller teams stop playing towards the mid-to-end of season, it's frustrating. Even with quality managers, it's just too easy for one's attention to drift away to other teams and such without something tangible to play for. 10 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Thu, Aug 23, 2007, 07:42 I've set a queue for my next pick. I'll be out of here until 6 Eastern. Play nice while Dad's at work, kids. 11 Challenger       Sustainer       ID: 481126818       Thu, Aug 23, 2007, 08:00 I just selected for AG out of his one person Que. Never so easy! 12 GoatLocker       Sustainer       ID: 060151121       Thu, Aug 23, 2007, 08:34 OK, I'm up and picked. Waiting on boikin and then I will make the pick on the back side. Turned off my queue for now. If he hasn't picked before I leave for work will add and name and turn back on. Cliff 13 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Thu, Aug 23, 2007, 08:57 Doug, you always come up with some great ideas, IMO. The Toilet Bowl for the order of the first four picks. Loser with the lowest points total gets the 4th pick, other loser gets third. Champ gets first pick and runner up gets 2nd. It is an interesting twist. 14 leggestand       Leader       ID: 451036518       Thu, Aug 23, 2007, 10:27 Anyone heard from boikin? I haven't seen a post by him for a while. 15 boikin       ID: 59831214       Thu, Aug 23, 2007, 11:22 im around i am just not a morning person. 16 GoatLocker       Sustainer       ID: 060151121       Thu, Aug 23, 2007, 11:25 Not I on boikin. I'm getting ready to go into a meeting at 9 my time. Will probably last 2 hours or so. Will turn on my queue just before I go. Only two names in it though, so if boikin takes both, you'll have to wait, sorry. Cliff 17 Guru       ID: 330592710       Thu, Aug 23, 2007, 11:42 ummmm,... boikin picked at 11:20, GL. Maybe you need to refresh your browser? 18 Sludge       ID: 177131910       Thu, Aug 23, 2007, 11:48 No offense to anyone, but please don't make me a designated picker. With the semester starting very soon (Monday) and other things going on, I barely have the time to do my own draft. 19 I_AM_CANADIAN       Donor       ID: 1361448       Thu, Aug 23, 2007, 15:22 I just made Taxman my other DP... so both sides of me won't be held up. Picks set and ready to go whenever Taxman picks. 20 GoatLocker       Sustainer       ID: 060151121       Thu, Aug 23, 2007, 15:24 Taxman is on travel. I'm on a Telcon, but as soon as it ends I will call him and let him know he is up. Cliff 21 Doug       ID: 113132214       Thu, Aug 23, 2007, 15:49 GL, when you talk to him, tell him that his 6-hour clock has expired in AAA as well and he can pick any time. 22 GoatLocker       Sustainer       ID: 060151121       Thu, Aug 23, 2007, 15:50 Roger that Doug 23 Doug       ID: 113132214       Thu, Aug 23, 2007, 16:01 His next round pick is up as well and the clock is running again. Technically, I think this pick is supposed to be skipped as well, but assuming we can hear from him in the next hour or so I think we'll let him get both picks in before we move forward. But 12 hours for these picks is too long of a delay. 24 GoatLocker       Sustainer       ID: 060151121       Thu, Aug 23, 2007, 16:36 Doug, I just made both picks for him, he is caught up and apologizes. Cliff 25 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Thu, Aug 23, 2007, 18:43 I have a 3-man queue, make that a two man queue with Gates getting snagged. If it comes back around to me again tonight I will not be home until about 11pm CST. I will check in as soon as I get home. 26 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Thu, Aug 23, 2007, 19:09 I'm home and can take queues and DP for anyone. I like Doug's concept for the Toilet Bowl if what TB said in post 13 is how it plays out. I've used that format in other leagues and it's cool. I wanted to throw this out there: I think there should be a stipulation in the rules that a player has to be on an NFL roster to be chosen. More specifically, no player on a team's roster in another league should be eligible for this league. I don't want to see anyone try to draft Darren McFadden in the 24th round. Any objections? 27 GoatLocker       Sustainer       ID: 060151121       Thu, Aug 23, 2007, 20:08 Now you're giving up my Super DEEP, still in ICE sleeper in talking about undrafted players. Drat, guess that means we should put your stipulation in effect. Also agree on the Toilet Bowl idea as outlined by Doug and TB. Cliff 28 Doug       ID: 113132214       Thu, Aug 23, 2007, 20:54 re: 26 agreed 29 Doug       ID: 113132214       Thu, Aug 23, 2007, 21:18 Not urgent, but I think we still need an answer to how keepers requiring a draft pick which has been traded away will be handled (or if we'll allow future draft pick trades). See post 47 of prior thread. 30 The Beezer       Dude       ID: 191202817       Fri, Aug 24, 2007, 00:29 Agreed on 26 as well. Blistering pace so far - thanks everyone for keeping this draft moving. 31 Doug       ID: 113132214       Fri, Aug 24, 2007, 03:02 Left a small queue... if it dries up, you'll have to wait for this West Coaster to wake up in the AM and re-evaluate. 32 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Fri, Aug 24, 2007, 07:21 I'm heading out for the day. I have a two man queue so my next pick is covered. If it comes back to me, boikin will no doubt aid me in picking. See you guys tonight. 33 Challenger       Sustainer       ID: 481126818       Fri, Aug 24, 2007, 09:20 I will be here monitoring the draft all day as my mowing plans was just changed as the rain arrived earlier than predicted. So I will be here to take some ques. Just let me know. If you have special instructions you can email me. 34 leggestand       Leader       ID: 451036518       Fri, Aug 24, 2007, 11:51 Dave, I just added you as DP and made my queue available, so, when you make your pick, you can go ahead and make mine. 35 Guru       ID: 330592710       Fri, Aug 24, 2007, 13:10 Interesting to see some of the drastic differences between this draft and the regular RIFC drafts. I've made it through 5 rounds now without taking a WR yet. I have my reasons - but I may be a moron. 36 leggestand       Leader       ID: 451036518       Fri, Aug 24, 2007, 14:20 Very true. I didn't have Michael Turner really on my radar at all in the RIFC until Round 10+, but I seriously debated whether to take him in the 4th round in this league. I opted to see if he would fall to me in the 5th, but he didn't. MC basically has a starting RB that will only cost him a 5th round pick next year. My guess is that Turner will be a 2nd round pick in most drafts next year, so, I think it is a great pick. 37 GoatLocker       Sustainer       ID: 060151121       Fri, Aug 24, 2007, 14:22 Silly me thinking Turner would get to me in the 5th. Oh well, the way the cookie crumbles. Yes, having the Keeper side really changes things up a lot. Will be interesting to see how it runs all the way through. Cliff 38 Doug       ID: 113132214       Fri, Aug 24, 2007, 16:24 Just got back in... picks 5.02 through 5.05 were my entire queue... anyone want to swap up to 5.07 this round? 39 GoatLocker       Sustainer       ID: 060151121       Fri, Aug 24, 2007, 16:30 Send me your thoughts Doug on what you want. Cliff 40 Doug       ID: 113132214       Fri, Aug 24, 2007, 17:21 sent 41 Doug       ID: 113132214       Fri, Aug 24, 2007, 17:43 Trade Announcement Goatlocker receives Doug's 5.07, 6.08, and 10.08 Doug receives Goatlocker's 5.13, 6.02, and 10.02 42 GoatLocker       Sustainer       ID: 060151121       Fri, Aug 24, 2007, 17:45 Approved Doug has my choice for 5.07 and should be making it shortly. Cliff 43 GoatLocker       Sustainer       ID: 060151121       Fri, Aug 24, 2007, 17:53 Doug, Email sent with choice. Cliff 44 GoatLocker       Sustainer       ID: 060151121       Fri, Aug 24, 2007, 17:58 I'm bailing work shortly. Have a few stops to make, so should be about 2 hours before I get home. If MC hasn't processed the trade, will get Dougs pick from him and make it when the time comes. Cliff 45 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Fri, Aug 24, 2007, 18:36 OK, I've processed it. I'm going out for an hour or so. I'll check back in for more mayhem and maudlin hijinks later. 46 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Sat, Aug 25, 2007, 13:07 [W]e still need an answer to how keepers requiring a draft pick which has been traded away will be handled (or if we'll allow future draft pick trades) We do indeed. I'll throw out a couple of alternatives to get this debate going. This isn't a formal vote yet, so I don't need everyone to post a choice. I just want to hear your ideas and present you with what I see as two reasonable approaches. Alternative A: Draft pick trades are only allowed once keepers have been declared. We haven't agreed to this yet, but I had anticipated having a keeper deadline each summer that will be about 7 days prior to the draft's start date and time. You'd then have a week to make deals for draft picks which would include upcoming draft picks for that draft only. This is obviously a very limited way of doing things, but if it's what people want, I'm willing to do it. Alternative B: You can trade any player or future draft pick at any time (subject to league/commissioner approval). If you trade a future pick which would have been forfeited due to your keeper elections, you are required to forfeit the next lowest pick in the subsequent draft. For example, if you trade your second round pick in `08 for Player X this season, and then you keep your second rounder from this season in `08, you forfeit your first round pick. In other words, you'll lose that keeper. Most people wouldn't make such a trade under these rules. Additionally, if you trade a first round selection in a future draft, you may not keep any player that would require you to have that pick available for yourself. Once you trade the pick, you're forfeiting your right to the slot required by him as well. Wow, that's confusing. Maybe Alternative B should just say that for every player that you draft in the first five rounds and then trade, you lose a keeper for the next season. More thought required on my part obviously. I had another idea that I wanted to run by you. Since keepers are so important to this league, I think once we set the keeper rules, a 3/4 majority (11) should be required to pass a rule change to the keeper rules. Other rules I think a simple majority (8) is fine. 47 leggestand       ID: 87382018       Sat, Aug 25, 2007, 13:11 Good proposals. I don't have much to add and will be ready to vote when the time comes. 48 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Sat, Aug 25, 2007, 13:17 I just realized that Alternative A doesn't really address the question of keeping a player that requires a traded draft pick. Crap. I think Alternative B is my only real idea in that case. 49 Doug       ID: 113132214       Sat, Aug 25, 2007, 13:31 How's that MC? Under A, once keepers are declared, I instantly lose the corresponding draft picks for those players. At that point the draft order (and keepers) are set for the year, and may be traded at will. Acquiring a player who "would have" required a 1st round draft pick doesn't matter any more once the keeper date has passed and the teams who owned the players AT THE TIME KEEPERS WERE DECLARED lose the corresponding draft picks. 50 Doug       ID: 113132214       Sat, Aug 25, 2007, 13:45 I like the idea of only permitting future draft pick trades for rounds 6-24 prior to keeper declaration... thus preventing a team from ever putting themselves in a position where they don't have a "x round or better" draft pick available for a keeper (since we allow 5 "first round" cost keepers to use rounds 1 through 5). When trading future draft picks, everyone has to keep in mind that the first 5 rounds will have many (but certainly not all) of those picks "disappear"... thus round 6 will essentially be something more like "round 2" or "round 3" in that sense (depending exactly how many of those early draft picks are spent on keepers). We had talked about the draft not snaking until round 3... but in that conversation I think we overlooked (at least I did) the impact of our keeper situation on that. I'd propose that in future years, rounds 1-6 be the same order, with the "snaking" actually starting in round 7. In sum, this would allow us the flexibility to have "future draft pick" trades, without creating a mess by teams trading away picks that they need for keepers, etc. 51 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Sat, Aug 25, 2007, 13:49 I read the last couple posts a couple times and maybe I am not fully awake because it was a difficult read. 1) I think we should be able to trade picks and keepers year round. I do think a one week cut-off prior to the draft starting is the way to go for submitting keepers. I say we should all email our keeper lists to the commish by a deadline and then he posts them in a thread. This way nobody else knows if I decide to only keep one keeper or all five. 2) Teams that receive players in a trade, normal keeper rules apply. If they were drafted in round X, they lose pick X. 3) If teams trade away a draft pick, they will not be able to submit a keeper list that would include a player required to use the pick they traded away. I guess in special circumstances, someone could accumulate multiple 1st or 2nd round choices and then the question arises on what if they have multiple players that would cost multiple first round picks? Maybe not. Probably the best way to look at this is that everyone has 5 keepers. If they choose to keep less than five, the beginning of the draft would be considered a supplemental draft. The "normal draft" could be once every team is at the level of five players. Let's just consider that "supplemental picks" can't be traded. For our lingo, the first round would always be in essence, the 6th round when you consider the 5 keepers. Yeah, now I am making it confusing, but in the long run it could avoid any confusion. 52 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Sat, Aug 25, 2007, 13:51 I should have refreshed before posting. I think Doug and I are on the same sheet and bow to his wisdom. 53 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Sat, Aug 25, 2007, 13:53 Yeah, I'm getting myself twisted around the axle on this. I like what you said about having different rules in rounds 6-24, Doug. I was trying to work that out in my head to propose an Alternative to it, but came up empty. Maybe a split process is the way to go about it. 54 Challenger       Sustainer       ID: 481126818       Sat, Aug 25, 2007, 14:03 Let's see if I can simplify this process. Worst Case Scenario - I trade my 1st & 2nd rd draft picks for 2008 and I elect to go with 5 keepers, by themselves all would cost me a 1st rd draft pick in the 2008 upcoming draft. (Don't we have a rule in place where if we had 2 keepers equal to 1st rd draft choices then we would not choose the 1st and 2nd rounds?) If so, then under the above scenario my 1st and 2nd rd selections should go to the team(s) I traded them to and then my 5 1st rd keepers should eliminate me from selecting in the 3rd-7th rds. Thus, my 1st actual 2008 draft selection would be in the 8th rd. At least this is what I'm seeing. 55 Challenger       Sustainer       ID: 481126818       Sat, Aug 25, 2007, 14:06 I should have refreshed before posting. 5 posts while I type my post. 56 Guru       ID: 330592710       Sat, Aug 25, 2007, 14:12 I don't think the "supplemental draft" logic works. As an extreme example, if I decide to keep my players drafted #15-19, then I should have picks in rounds 1-5. I would then have 10 players on my roster before some teams have more than 5. 57 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Sat, Aug 25, 2007, 14:25 Yes, you are right Guru and I didn't think that through, but I like what Challenger posted. 58 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Sat, Aug 25, 2007, 14:29 I hate quick double posting, but in that extreme example if everyone else kept their 1-5 picks and you kept your 15-19 picks, I think you would have 10 players while everyone else had five in our current keeper format. The rest of the teams wouldn't catch up until we got to the picks you lost due to your keeper rounds. 59 Doug       ID: 113132214       Sat, Aug 25, 2007, 15:02 I put together a 6-man queue... hopefully it'll be enough to last to my next pick (which is 15 picks from now), but it's about all I could definitively muster at this point. I'm pretty much out the rest of the day... will try and briefly check in from a friends house this evening to ensure I'm not dramatically holding things up. 60 leggestand       ID: 87382018       Sat, Aug 25, 2007, 15:26 Beezer, I can't believe you took Clayton at 7.09. I was all set and seeing how you had 3 WR's, I thought for sure he was mine. I had no idea who to take after that, so, I just sucked it up and took McGee too early. 61 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Sat, Aug 25, 2007, 15:47 Man, it's about that time when I normally start pondering whether to take Darrent Williams. Damn, that's sad. In your Worst Case Scenario, Challenger, how does one fill out one's roster then, considering the manager would be two players short at the end of the draft? Maybe I am misunderstanding. I want to find a way to maintain the integrity of the draft: 24 rounds, every year. Everyone finishes with 24 players. OK, I want to point something out that has occurred to me. My initial keeper proposal was that the first 3 rounds would be where you'd forfeit draft picks if you kept 1-3 keepers. This was shot down by several people, I believe. However, we've nearly come back to that position, only with more rounds sucked into it (1-5). I realize many of us may not keep our top 5 picks, but I'll bet most of us intend to keep most of those picks. That gives me an idea. We use the mechanism that we have decided on ('half minus one' starting in year 3 of ownership) for any picks in rounds 6-24 that are kept. Any players that were drafted in the previous year in rounds 1-5 can be kept at a cost of forfeiting a draft pick in rounds 1-5. The number of picks forfeited in those rounds will correspond with the number of drafted 'Top Fivers'. Keep 3 of them, you lose your first 3 picks. Keep 4 you lose picks 1-4. Keep 1 and you lose your first round pick. This way you can trade a player and his keeper round status follows him to the new owner, as we agreed on earlier. If you trade a draft pick, you also forfeit the ability to keep a player corresponding to that round. If it's a late round pick, then you will probably be able to navigate around it, but if it is an early pick, you'll likely forfeit a Top Five keeper. When we start drafting in keeper years, we start with round 1, fill in all of the keepers for those who have any, and then the players who haven't traded away their picks get to draft. After round 1, everyone has 1 player, unless someone has acquired another one in trade. If someone winds up with multiple picks in one round, they would need to stop drafting towards the end of the draft so as not to have more than 24 players on their roster. Maybe I should think harder before I post, but this seems to me like where we're sort of headed anyway. 62 leggestand       ID: 87382018       Sat, Aug 25, 2007, 16:27 In Challenger's scenario, the easy way on that one is to say "if you trade away a pick, you must get one back." If the only way to do that is by giving up a last round pick, so be it, as the manager getting the higher pick can only hold 24 players anyhow. So the trade would look like this: Challenger gives up: 2008 First Round Pick Leggestand gives up: Brandon Jacobs and 2008 24th Round Pick Maybe I think we are making this harder than it needs to be. During the draft, some people may have 5 players, some 6, some 7, and some even 10 all at the same time. By the end of the draft, though, everyone will have 24 players. So, I don't think that should be an issue. The only real issue I see is: How do you trade future draft picks without knowing who you are keeping? I liked Doug's proposal of a person can only trade rounds 6-24 prior to declaring keepers. A 6th round pick is probably the highest anyone is willing to trade anyhow, as the 6.01 pick is probably really going to be the 10-15th pick in the draft...or virtually a "quasi" first round pick next season. So, that would be my proposal, no trading 1-5th round picks prior to declaring keepers. I think that solves all problems. One response to me could be, "but what if I trade my 6th round pick, and then keep my 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6th rounders next year? Haven't I already traded my pick?" Aha! Good question, but easily solvable again. If you kept your 6th round player, then that means you logically must have a spot open in Rounds 1-5 (in my example above, it is Round 5). If you trade a pick, and then keep a player in that round, you lose the next lowest draft position (in my example, your 6th rounder was kept in your vacant 5th round draft choice). Your 6th round draft pick can still be traded, but you have now filled that open spot in Rounds 1-5. As another example, if I traded my 7th round pick and I keep my 7th rounder, I would lose the 6th round pick (assuming I didn't keep my 6th rounder or trade away that pick as well). The above scenario works on multiple draft pick selections and multiple keepers above the 6th round. Next question could be: "Does my 6th rounder now count as a 5th round keeper, meaning the following year he would be a 2nd round keeper (5/2 rounded down = 2)?" No! He is still a 6th rounder, and will only count as a 3rd round keeper next year. It is only because you traded away the 6th pick that an adjustment had to be made to the draft order. I may be oversimplifying the problem, but I think Doug's solution was spot on. 63 Doug       ID: 113132214       Sat, Aug 25, 2007, 17:17 Yeah, from the sound of it 62 is indeed an illustration of what I was thinking (with the "no-trade" clause for rounds 1-5 until keepers are declared for that year). I think it covers all the bases... Except for the roster size question (everyone at 24), which to me is a non-issue. If you have 24 players already and another draft pick slot comes up for you, you just forfeit that pick. Up until the time of the pick though, you still own it, and can trade it... or if you trade away a player, you'll get to use it. And if you end the draft with less than 24 players, then once waivers open on the site (usually a day or two after draft completes) you'll be able to fill out your roster on the open market. Accordingly, I don't see any need to establish or enforce any rule that mandates "24 players per team" at draft end. 64 leggestand       ID: 87382018       Sat, Aug 25, 2007, 17:35 Doug's proposal for the 24 players issue seems good as well. I would just prefer not to revert to the "if you keep X keepers (up to 5), you lose your first X picks" proposal. I think it is great to draft a guy in the 12th round that has a break out year and you get to be rewarded by keeping him for one year in Round 12. It opens up the keeper market as well, as you don't just keep your top 5 players, as you need to prepare yourself for who may be out there if you forfeit a higher picked player. Like last season (I threw these kind of scenarios out there in the last thread, but I think they are neat to analyze), if you drafted Peyton in the first and took a flyer on Brees in the 15th round, who would you keep this year? In the keep X players, lose X rounds scenario, you would certainly keep Peyton. In the keep a player lose his draft round scenario, I don't know who I would keep. Do I drop Manning to try and get McFadden in Round 1, or do I drop Brees because I retain the top QB? I just think its fun to have to ask yourself these questions instead of just taking my best 5 players. 65 GoatLocker       Sustainer       ID: 060151121       Sat, Aug 25, 2007, 18:30 I'm around, but packing the Motor Home, so I went ahead and turned my queue back on. Only one name in it though, so should get me through the 7th round. Will check back later. Cliff 66 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Sat, Aug 25, 2007, 20:48 Things have slowed down too much in this draft and all my drafts. I did set up a queue, but would like it to be only for my next pick (8th round), unless the draft gets stopped on me after midnight then you can use it for my 9th round pick as well. 67 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Sat, Aug 25, 2007, 20:56 I was able to pick for Hubble. Hope that was what he wanted. It was all he had in his queue. I noticed leggestand's pick went off before I could act. 68 leggestand       ID: 87382018       Sat, Aug 25, 2007, 20:58 Yep. I just got back from dinner, so, I was able to get mine in (I was also in the process for picking for Hubble and wondered what the heck happened!). 69 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Sun, Aug 26, 2007, 08:47 Taxman has a queue but it says to pick another LB and I sent him a message asking him to confirm he wants one before I pull the trigger for him. Kafenatid extrapolates our finish date as 2 September. I think our pace has been pretty good. We've finished 1/3 of the draft in like 4 days. Of course, it's always fun picking in the first 1/3 of these drafts. The middle third is always where I start to feel there are slim pickings. And then I feel like a vulture munching on rotted possum organs for the last 8 rounds. Steamy and pungent. Mmmmm. Heh. Anyway, you all have done great pacing this thing. We've never even been close to timing out anyone. I really appreciate that. A few people still haven't joined the Fanball league. Check the e-mail address I have for you if you have not seen the invitation message. If you never got it, I can resend. This is the link. I think you all probably have Fanball accounts from playing RIFC before, but if they've lapsed or you don't have one for some reason, they're free to start. 70 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Sun, Aug 26, 2007, 11:06 Doug and leggestand, I am fine with the proposal to disallow trades of draft picks in rounds 1-5 until keepers are declared. That leaves a one week window to play with them, plus during the draft itself, if someone desires. I want to make it clear that my revised proposal in 61 didn't remove the ability to keep players drafted in rounds 6-24 using the 'half minus one' mechanism. It basically created different rules for keeping players drafted in 1-5 and 6-24, just like what we are about to do. Can anyone foresee any problems with the Doug/legestand proposal? I can't really, but I'll rehash it here to see if I'm getting it right. 1. Keepers are declared 1 week before start of draft each summer. 2. Until that time, no trades involving actual picks in future drafts may be made unless the picks are in the 6th through 24th rounds. 3. Unbalanced trades (2-for-1, 3-for-2,etc) may be made with any combination of players and draft picks from 6-24, but at no time shall a manager be able to carry more than 24 players on his team. 4. If a draft pick is traded away at any time and then subsequently is required as a forfeiture for a keeper, the next lowest draft pick shall be forfeited instead. Example: You trade your 7th round pick in `08 for Player X this season. Next summer you declare keepers and one of them is your `07 7th rounder. You then lose the 6th pick in `08. In the above example, how does the manager acquire a player to fill out a roster of less than 24 players? Is he entitled to draft extra players at the end, or will he be required to wait until the waiver wire opens up? 71 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Sun, Aug 26, 2007, 12:58 Maybe a bit too early for the Michael Bush pick, but it's been killing me to leave him out there as a possible keeper. 72 Athletics Guy       ID: 31658719       Sun, Aug 26, 2007, 13:02 TB, I knew it was going to be you! Even before the draft started I was worried you'd take Bush away from me. 73 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Sun, Aug 26, 2007, 13:03 That didn't sound homoerotic or anything. Either post. 74 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Sun, Aug 26, 2007, 13:11 My original post 71 was a bit longer talking about how worried I was that A's guy would snag Bush before I could. I really didn't know exactly where to grab him, but wanted the possibility of a later round keeper. I've been following along at raiderfans.net and there is a guy in the premium section who is great friends with the family and a huge Raider fan. Word has been great about him. Sure, he might never see the field this year depending on the team success but I think if they really needed him on the field he is healthy enough to get out there. Regardless, this was a keeper pick. I feel much better about it knowing he was on your radar. Was he going to make it back up to me with my next pick? 75 Challenger       Sustainer       ID: 481126818       Sun, Aug 26, 2007, 13:35 You know, since this is a keeper league maybe we should have added a couple more bench spots before the draft. In the above example, how does the manager acquire a player to fill out a roster of less than 24 players? Is he entitled to draft extra players at the end, or will he be required to wait until the waiver wire opens up? At the end of the draft 76 Athletics Guy       ID: 31658719       Sun, Aug 26, 2007, 13:53 I don't know for sure if I would have taken him, but Bush was definitely on my top 10 list. So it would have been hard for me to pass up on him with BOTH of my upcoming picks. I still felt it would have been too early though. Early or not, you got the guy you wanted. That's more important than anything else. 77 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Sun, Aug 26, 2007, 14:04 I wish I could have waited until later in the draft, but I didn't want to risk it. I am happy grabbing him in this format. I wouldn't draft him in a non-keeper league this year unless we had a very large bench and it was a very large league. 78 Doug       ID: 113132214       Sun, Aug 26, 2007, 14:06 In the above example, how does the manager acquire a player to fill out a roster of less than 24 players? Is he entitled to draft extra players at the end, or will he be required to wait until the waiver wire opens up? See 63... I think you have to wait until waivers open up. No "free picks" because you traded away... just suck it up and deal. Otherwise next time make sure you get a "last round" draft pick back from the other manager. But otherwise wait until waivers. No free picks. 79 Athletics Guy       ID: 31658719       Sun, Aug 26, 2007, 17:16 Finally, I get to put in my first homer pick of the year. 80 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Sun, Aug 26, 2007, 18:22 You're up again if you want to put a second one in. 81 Athletics Guy       ID: 31658719       Sun, Aug 26, 2007, 18:33 I just picked, got caught up in WoW. 82 Challenger       Sustainer       ID: 481126818       Mon, Aug 27, 2007, 09:19 My last pick of Lance Briggs was a last second switch from Big Ben who was all que'd up. The sucker rewards me by crashing his Lamborghini a couple hours later. Welllll, maybe him didn't as no driver was found at the scene...... Ya righhhhttttt!! 83 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Mon, Aug 27, 2007, 10:20 I read about that this morning. Sounds like he was drinking and took off after the wreck. Watch him report that it was stolen, then the cops investigate and waste tens of thousands of dollars to "discover" that he lied and fled. Then after football season is over he pleads to leaving a scene, gets some community service, and we've all forgotten about it because the next athlete has done something dumber. 84 Guru       ID: 330592710       Mon, Aug 27, 2007, 14:39 I'll be out from about 4pm-9pm. I've set up a queue for rounds 12-13, and designated GL, MC, and boikin as DPs. Feel free to use the queue for both rounds if needed. If it gets depleted, then you'll just need to wait. 85 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Mon, Aug 27, 2007, 14:56 Guru, I was thinking I'd get in touch with you tonight to try to square away the settings on Fanball Commissioner. Will you be available after 9 PM? 86 Guru       ID: 330592710       Mon, Aug 27, 2007, 15:12 I should be available then. 87 Doug       ID: 113132214       Mon, Aug 27, 2007, 16:27 I'm heading out now and will be on the road for much of the next couple weeks. I expect to have my laptop with me, so should be able to track things that way. I should also be able to check in online once or twice a day to set up queues. However, it will be really helpful if I can have one or two people who will be my phone contacts for the remainder of the draft. I may be unable to get online for hours at a time, etc. so if I have a queue expire, I'll need someone to give me a ring and make my pick for me. Please drop me an email if you think you're available for phone contact. Thanks! 88 judy       ID: 7771722       Mon, Aug 27, 2007, 21:42 GURU -- I have a question for you over on AA #4 http://rotoguru1.com/cgi-bin/read.pl? board=footst&thread=827#1188267206 Post #70 Also I may need help later with waiver stuff -- I need to carefully read the AOL rules first to form some questions. We should finish our draft tonight! Is this the best place to contact you? Thanks. 89 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Mon, Aug 27, 2007, 23:16 I shot you an email, Doug. I will help as much as I can with this draft, the AAA, and the G24. I just noticed that we have an 8 hour clock. Isn't that a bit excessive? Are we going to finish this on time? 90 Challenger       Sustainer       ID: 481126818       Mon, Aug 27, 2007, 23:29 TB, read MC's post 69 concerning our projected finished date 91 The Beezer       Dude       ID: 191202817       Mon, Aug 27, 2007, 23:42 We just past the halfway point in 5 days and 5 hours. Maintaining this pace would finish the draft at 2am Sunday morning. Absolutely blistering pace so far at 1.344 picks per hour. 92 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Mon, Aug 27, 2007, 23:48 Shazaam. That's good stuff. I think all my other drafts are so slow that I didn't realize how well we are doing. Heck, we have almost caught up to my AAA league and I have no doubt that we will pass them and that is after starting 5 days later. 93 Challenger       Sustainer       ID: 481126818       Tue, Aug 28, 2007, 00:53 Going to bed. Turned my Que on in case Doug checks in 94 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Tue, Aug 28, 2007, 07:00 As of 6 AM EST on Tuesday morning, the Admin Draft Tracking bar on my Kafenatid screen projects we'll finish by 5 AM on September 2. That's fine with me, and it's the reason I dropped the idea of gathering together for a 2 hour mini-draft run. We ought to finish by Labor Day unless someone falls off the face of the earth. 95 GoatLocker       Sustainer       ID: 060151121       Tue, Aug 28, 2007, 09:14 I won't have any evening access from now until the end of the draft, but will keep the queue loaded and should be just fine. Can always go find access if I need to. Cliff 96 Doug       ID: 441251914       Tue, Aug 28, 2007, 14:15 Back online (for now at least)... I sent some emails to a couple of you late last night (midnight PST) but I don't think they actually transmitted until a few minutes ago. 97 leggestand       Leader       ID: 451036518       Tue, Aug 28, 2007, 17:42 Guru - You love James Jones today! 98 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Tue, Aug 28, 2007, 18:20 I've had James Jones on my radar for a while but was hoping he would go much later in the draft. I even wrote about him in my 10.03 rationale and then cut that part out before posting it. Really, I was typing to myself on my secret master plan, which I developed almost halfway through the draft...lol 99 I_AM_CANADIAN       Donor       ID: 1361448       Tue, Aug 28, 2007, 18:44 FYI - I'm having a problem with Fanball. It's giving me this msg when I'm trying to add players to my roster: Claims are closed for the 2007 preseason. Claims will be available during the 2007 regular season. 100 leggestand       ID: 557292718       Tue, Aug 28, 2007, 19:24 Yeah, I like James Jones also. Guru just picked him a couple hours earlier in the RIFC. James Jones on the mind! IAC - I was having the same problem, but I figured it out today. Go to "Add/Drop" (not "Players") and you will have the scroll down list to add players to your team. 101 I_AM_CANADIAN       Donor       ID: 1361448       Tue, Aug 28, 2007, 20:54 kewl, thanks legge 102 Guru       ID: 330592710       Tue, Aug 28, 2007, 20:59 I like WRs who can also shoot 3 pointers. 103 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Tue, Aug 28, 2007, 21:32 IAC, try adding the player on this page: http://fbc15.fanball.com/commissioner.fbc?prg=tplayeradd Yesterday I updated the settings to match RIFC so a few things got changed. If that link still doesn't work, I will modify the settings to allow you guys to do it again. 104 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Tue, Aug 28, 2007, 23:53 I was finally able to log in to kafenatid and make my pick. I tried as soon as I got the email notice and it wouldn't load for me. I do think it's a bit screwy that the clock keeps going if the site is down. 105 Hubble       ID: 25332812       Wed, Aug 29, 2007, 14:51 I cant make my pick... "error connecting database" some1 can pick for me? 106 Hubble       ID: 25332812       Wed, Aug 29, 2007, 14:51 ERROR: Could not connect to database. is the actual message 107 Hubble       ID: 25332812       Wed, Aug 29, 2007, 14:55 16.04 Cato June, LB, TAM 108 leggestand       Leader       ID: 451036518       Wed, Aug 29, 2007, 15:18 Same error message for me... 16.05 Greg Olsen, TE, CHI 109 Hubble       ID: 25332812       Wed, Aug 29, 2007, 16:44 Ok it finnaly worked.. i picked for you leggestand. 110 leggestand       Leader       ID: 451036518       Wed, Aug 29, 2007, 16:46 Thanks Hubble. 111 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Wed, Aug 29, 2007, 18:02 Doug, Taxman, boikin, and Hubble have not joined the league at Fanball yet. I sent out an e-mail last week inviting everyone to join the league. The link to Fanball Commissioner is here. You'll need to create a free Fanball.com account to access the game. If you need me to resend the league and password info, let me know. Once you're in, please be sure to add players to your roster. Remember: the season starts in 8 days. 112 Doug       ID: 441251914       Wed, Aug 29, 2007, 19:08 Sorry... slammed... just checking in briefly atm but not about to attempt a signup, I'll try to get to it tonight 113 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Wed, Aug 29, 2007, 21:13 Freddy Keiaho is not located in Fanball yet. I tried to look up his position there and he doesn't come up. Just an FYI, IAC. 114 Challenger       Sustainer       ID: 481126818       Wed, Aug 29, 2007, 23:27 Freddie Keiaho link at Fanball 115 Hubble       ID: 19792721       Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 08:00 I cant seem to be able to access fanball... i've sent a couple email requesting my login infos... yes i've tried the "forgot PW and Username" few times.. i've received no emails... i'll wait another day before creating a new account. 116 Challenger       Sustainer       ID: 481126818       Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 08:13 Hubble, Is it possible you are using the wrong email addy? When I requested my ID and PW it arrived within a minute. 117 Hubble       ID: 19792721       Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 10:14 Well if you try my other email, it says account not found. when i try my good email it says EMAIL SENT!!! and i receive nothing... been trying for few days now. i sent email to support... nothing yet 118 Challenger       Sustainer       ID: 481126818       Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 10:29 Since you are not receiving your 2 different requests from Fanball, my guess is there is some type of block either thru spam filtering, ISP not allowing or you may have accidentally block it yourself. Check your block senders list first. My return email addy from my request was " webmaster@fanball.com " But the email asks for all replies go " support@fanball.com " which you've probably already know that one. Good Luck 119 Sludge       ID: 16109168       Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 13:17 I know it don't matter THAT much, but LaRon Landry is a safety (DB), not LB. 120 Challenger       Sustainer       ID: 481126818       Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 13:26 I think somebody inputed it wrong on GoatLocker's behalf. Sometimes I've been ask to input the players position instead of it automatically coming up on it's own. He can easily correct it on Kafenatid to keep his draft grid correct. 121 leggestand       Leader       ID: 451036518       Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 14:13 I am in the market for a lower tiered RB (4th-7th rounder) and solid WR (3rd-5th rounder) for Deuce McAllister. If anyone is interested, feel free to send me an email. 122 boikin       ID: 59831214       Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 16:20 sorry about that, i was the one who intered in the wrong position for landry, it was late at night. 123 GoatLocker       Sustainer       ID: 060151121       Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 16:23 Thanks for all the DPs that have helped me out the last couple of days. I really appreciate the assist. I changed Landry's position already. Cliff 124 Guru       ID: 330592710       Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 17:39 boikin - Where do you live? The Landry pick was at 12:59pm ET this afternoon. 125 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 18:14 FYI, the schedule that is in Fanball right now is going to change. I allowed the software to set a default schedule, but it doesn't have the doubleheader games in there. I'm going to use the Guru's formula to create a schedule this week. I'll announce it when I'm finished. I meant to bring this up the other day and forgot. How does everyone feel about extending the trading deadline a few weeks? Seeing as how this is a keeper league, it will be sort of hard to have a firm idea as to what sort of keeper potential you have for next season by 9 November. If no one wants to change it, I'll leave it as it is, but I wanted to get some feedback on your feelings first. I am thinking we could move it back to November 30th (Week 13) or even December 7th (Week 14) to allow a bit more wheeling and dealing in anticipation of keeping players for the following season. Yes, I realize this is the first week of our playoffs. On a related note, when should the season-end moratorium on trades be lifted? After the deadline, when can managers begin making trades again? I don't think it makes much sense to allow people to make trades until keepers are declared in the summer. This is not a 'franchise' league. You only own the rights to up to 5 players once the season's over, so I think at that point, there should be no more trading allowed. 126 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 18:20 I think trades should be open year round, so I vote for closing them at the latest possible date and opening them again as soon as the season is over. 127 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 18:22 I just reread your post. I DO think we sould be able to make deals prior to declaring keepers. I always wondered why you had that option off in our real league format. 128 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 18:29 Uh, I don't think that was an option before, bro. I am actually willing to allow year round trades subject to Commissioner approval. As long as I am commish, I will approve virtually any trade that is not seriously unbalanced, so keep that in mind. I've played in a league where trades are allowed all season long, and I'm actually fine with that. I just didn't think this group of managers, who are used to RIFC format, would go for that. I mean, we have specific rules in place to prevent people from changing their rosters during the playoffs. But I'll go with the flow. 129 Hubble       ID: 19792721       Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 18:39 Block senders is empty... i guess it might be my ISP in wich case i cant do sht can I? 130 I_AM_CANADIAN       Donor       ID: 1361448       Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 18:43 I don't like the option of being able to trade WHILE in the playoffs... I'd say a cuttoff of week 11 at the latest. 131 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 19:37 No, I agree that we cut it off before the playoffs, but as soon as the season is over and we've crowned a champion, we turn it back on. 132 leggestand       ID: 557292718       Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 20:06 Agree with TB's post 131. 133 Guru       ID: 330592710       Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 20:47 ditto 131 134 Hubble       ID: 19792721       Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 21:42 it finnaly worked... im in fanball! 135 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 22:07 With regard to 131, are you saying managers should have the right to trade players that they won't be keeping? 136 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 22:10 Yes 139 Doug       ID: 441251914       Fri, Aug 31, 2007, 03:42 I get an error when I try to sign up my team? Perhaps because my account uses the email "fanball@rep..." instead of the one you have listed for me? 140 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Fri, Aug 31, 2007, 06:59 Doug, I just reconfigured your invite to include the e-mail address you mentioned in 139. Hopefully that will help. Now, if we can just figure out a way to help boikin. 141 Doug       ID: 441251914       Fri, Aug 31, 2007, 12:48 Yeah, that worked... I'm in. Thx! 142 GoatLocker       Sustainer       ID: 060151121       Fri, Aug 31, 2007, 16:56 I'm still away from the computer most of the time. My queue is available and so is free form. Please do not pick a Kicker until Round 24. If I am up and that is all that is left, please call my cell and I'll give you a name. Thanks, Cliff 143 GoatLocker       Sustainer       ID: 060151121       Fri, Aug 31, 2007, 16:58 Duh, Cell # is available at League Home - Owners. Cliff 144 Taxman       SuperDude       ID: 029463114       Fri, Aug 31, 2007, 18:57 I'll be out for next 2-3 hrs. Please use my queue...but please don't take two players at the same position Thank you 145 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Fri, Aug 31, 2007, 19:41 Five teams now have three QB. Either our bench is too deep or we don't have enough starting positions. 146 Athletics Guy       ID: 477573110       Fri, Aug 31, 2007, 23:14 Says the guy with only 1 QB... :) 147 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Fri, Aug 31, 2007, 23:19 Of course the guy with one QB would notice something like this. =) To be fair, I would not trade my one QB for any other three QB's, but I thought there might just be a starter available on the WW come week 6 for a one week rental. The good thing is that with all the QB's and extra TEs and Defenses drafted, there will be some quality skill players available. 148 leggestand       ID: 557292718       Fri, Aug 31, 2007, 23:25 I hear you TB. I am stuck with craptastic Joey Harrington as my back up. I guess QB is a good position to hit a "keeper" in this league, as if you bank on the right guy, you may only lose a 9th-15th round pick next year, giving you a shot at some of the college guys next year. 149 Taxman       SuperDude       ID: 029463114       Sat, Sep 01, 2007, 12:37 Lesson learned...empty your queue of players you don't want. I really didn't need the 3rd DL or DB. And didn't put enough Ks into the queue. dumb...worse than the travel required at the beginning of the draft w/o having access to my cheat sheets 150 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Sat, Sep 01, 2007, 13:30 I think your IDP is the shiznit. You have a boatload of top players. I think in the regular RIFC format, we should seriously discuss upping the starters to 2 each DL, DB, LB, with 2 flex. Go from 6 starters to 8. There is enough talent out there. I know I say this every year but tops there are 6 offensive scorers on the field at any given time (with 5 linemen) while there are always 11 defensive scorers. We stash away 3rd and 4th string RB and WR. I'd just like to see more value available in the later rounds. Oh yeah, I say no extra bench either. Our bench is plenty big right now. 151 Athletics Guy       ID: 477573110       Sat, Sep 01, 2007, 13:53 I left a short queue. Feel free to use it for both of my upcoming picks. 152 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Sat, Sep 01, 2007, 15:43 boikin is at the Gator game and I wouldn't be surprised to see him time out in the draft. Anyone who can set queues is advised to do so. I'll be here all day and can pick for anyone. 153 Athletics Guy       ID: 477573110       Sat, Sep 01, 2007, 18:16 Silly me, I miscounted the rounds. Oh well, kickers aren't real players anyways... 154 Challenger       Sustainer       ID: 481126818       Sat, Sep 01, 2007, 18:23 Silly me also, made a queue and forgot to turn it on. 155 The Beezer       Dude       ID: 191202817       Sat, Sep 01, 2007, 21:09 Don't worry TB - I got a feeling that one of my QBs will hit the wire soon and be available for you to grab. 156 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Sat, Sep 01, 2007, 22:34 I drank a bunch of beers and then decided to draft Huard. If he still has the job at week 6, which I think he will, not too horrible against Cincy at home. He will probably be dropped after that game. When are we going to run waivers so I can boot a steriod-using cheating DB off my team who I really didn't want to draft anyway? 157 Taxman       SuperDude       ID: 029463114       Sun, Sep 02, 2007, 10:59 I am picking a player whose name is in neither kafenatid or AOL Kenton Keith, RB, IND Untill Keith is added to AOL, I am going to use a place holder...Michael Vick. I understand that if I drop Vick before Keith is added, I will lose my claim on Keith. 158 Taxman       SuperDude       ID: 029463114       Sun, Sep 02, 2007, 12:17 MC Just because I am slow (but very inconsistantly consistant) can we have a thread dedicated to the current "legue rules". I am confused as to what is decided and what is banter. Also..when do post draft waivers start. As did Athletics guy, I also only drafted "real players". 159 Taxman       SuperDude       ID: 029463114       Sun, Sep 02, 2007, 12:26 MC....more good news Fanball will not allow me to set a roster without a kicker (must have a player at each position)..so.. AG and I be screwed (self inflicted)for week 1..if there is no waiver pick up before the season starts. 160 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Sun, Sep 02, 2007, 12:52 I'll set up a waiver claim period tonight. I will try to mirror RIFC, so that it lasts 2 days. Can everyone please spend some time today making sure their rosters are complete and accurate before I turn off your abilities to add players to your team? I will pull all of the rules together and post them in a new thread, then e-mail the link to everyone. I believe there are still a few small issues that need to be voted on. I'll think about it a bit and work it into the new thread. 161 Challenger       Sustainer       ID: 481126818       Sun, Sep 02, 2007, 14:04 Just running thru the available FA's and noticed that David Garrard needs to be added to GoatLocker's team 162 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Sun, Sep 02, 2007, 16:32 I haven't shut off the ability to add players to your teams yet. You should all be able to do it still. Checking this morning, I noticed that a few teams were still a few players short, though. 163 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Sun, Sep 02, 2007, 22:13 I've verified that everyone has all of their drafted players. I also shut off the ability to grab free agents. The claim system is set up to handle a batch of claims on Wednesday at noon, just like it will be during the regular season. Yes, I realize this is more than 2 days, but I want to make sure everyone sees this note before then, and there'll still be more than 24 hours before the first game at that point. The claim priority for now is the reverse of the draft (boikin is first, Taxman is last). Those that have claims to make, go ahead and set them in the claim system just like with RIFC leagues. I'll open the player pool to free agency on Wednesday evening. The rules thread is in work. Expect to see it tomorrow. 164 leggestand       ID: 557292718       Sun, Sep 02, 2007, 22:38 I just wanted to say that the draft experience was exceptional for this league, so, I am sure that bodes well for things to come. We got through 24 rounds in 9 days. Impressive all and good luck. 165 Taxman       SuperDude       ID: 029463114       Sun, Sep 02, 2007, 22:49 Thanks for all your hard work MC. 166 Taxman       SuperDude       ID: 029463114       Sun, Sep 02, 2007, 22:58 MC...Kenton Keith is now available in Fanball. Will you please swap him for M(poochy)Vick when you get the chance. Thanks 167 Doug       ID: 441251914       Mon, Sep 03, 2007, 15:36 Ditto 164/165 168 GoatLocker       Sustainer       ID: 060151121       Mon, Sep 03, 2007, 16:21 Thanks to all for make the picks for me. I'm back home, and now time to look at what I have. Dang, 6 LBs. That's what happens I guess. Last thing I probably needed, was the third QB, but with hearing they were making the switch, I thought Garrard was worth the flyer this late in the draft. Only time will tell. Cliff 169 Mötley Crüe       ID: 15723310       Mon, Sep 03, 2007, 16:27 Thanks, guys. I have been working the schedule and custom rules all day. The schedules should all be accurate now. There are a ton of rules that need to be addressed in this league. I'm going to paste a draft of the custom rules only below. Please have a look at them and feel free to comment. Next step is to compile a list of things to vote on. There aren't as many as I thought but I think we do have a few things that need to be decided, chief among them the trading deadline. KEEPER RULES Managers may keep up to 5 players each season from the previous year's roster. There is no minimum number of keepers. Each player chosen in Year X and kept in subsequent years will require a manager to forfeit a draft pick in the corresponding Year-X-draft-round the player was chosen in for the year X+1 draft. Beginning in year X+2, keeping the same player will result in the loss of a pick corresponding to the pick from Year X divided in half, rounded down to the nearest whole number. This division and rounding shall apply each subsequent year (X+3, X+4, etc) until keeping a player requires forfeiting a first round pick every year. If there are two or more players that achieve first round keeper status, they may be kept in exchange for forfeiting the same number of picks at the front of the draft. Keep 3 first round players, forfeit the first 3 picks. Keep 5, forfeit the first 5 picks. If two players on the same fantasy team are drafted in the same round and then kept, one of them counts as the next lowest (numerically) draft pick in the subsequent draft. If three players on the same team require forfeiture of equal draft rounds to be kept, the owner forfeits that round's pick, plus the two picks from the straddling rounds. Players that are traded maintain their draft spot for the purposes of determining keeper status, unless they are subsequently waived. All players who are waived automatically garner 'undrafted' status. For the purposes of assigning them a keeper round the following year, it would be as if they were never drafted, even if the same manager re-acquires the player. Undrafted players may be kept with the 24th round pick in the subsequent draft. Changes to the keeper rules will only be affected if at least 75% of the league votes in favor of the change. 75% of 14 requires at least 11 managers in favor. UNLISTED PLAYERS During the draft, any player may be drafted, regardless of whether or not the player is listed at the hosting game site. Once the draft is completed, unlisted players may not be added to any roster. This applies for any post-draft waiver processing as well. In the event that a drafted player is not listed after the draft has completed, a placeholder player will be assigned to the drafting team, to be replaced by the drafted player as soon as he is available. PRIORITY CLAIMING All free agents (any players not on a current roster) are subject to a weekly claiming process at noon on Wednesday. Following the first 6 weeks of the season, the priorities will reset weekly based on the reverse of W/L percentage. After that, priorities will not be reset. Throughout the season, when a player is claimed (either via "free agent priority claim" or a waiver claim), the claiming team moves to the end of the claiming priority list. Following the final regular season game, priorities will be reset based on playoff seed, with the top seed getting the top priority. Thereafter, throughout the playoffs, priorities will again adjust only when a claim is awarded. Starting at 1:00pm on Wednesday, all free agents may be picked up by any team "first come, first served" without any change in priority status. (Immediately following the draft, undrafted players will be subject to a priority claiming process, with priorities equal to the reverse of the first round draft order.) When a player is dropped from a roster, the player will go on waivers for 48 hours. At the end of the 48 hour period, if any team has placed a claim on the player, the team with the highest claiming priority will receive the player. If no claims are submitted, the player becomes a free agent at that time. If a player is dropped within 48 hours of his game freeze, he may not be claimed until the following week's free agent claiming process. Starting five minutes prior to the scheduled start of each NFL game, no player in that game may be dropped, regardless of whether the player is an active or bench player. SCHEDULE 13 week round robin Doubleheaders all weeks 1-13 (play each team twice) Single elimination playoffs, weeks 14-16 TRADES AND TRADE DEADLINE During the draft, trades may include draft picks. Trades will normally be approved immediately by the Commissioner, assuming they are reasonably balanced. If league managers believe an announced trade is unbalanced, they should protest the trade ASAP. Trading for future draft picks is allowed at any time, with the following limitations: 1. Draft picks in rounds 1 through 5 may only be traded during the week leading up to the draft and during the draft itself each summer. 2. Managers may accumulate as many draft picks as they wish; however no fantasy team shall have more than 24 players on its roster at any time. After the draft, trades will be subject to a review period. For the first 24 hours following a trade, managers may protest a trade by posting a message at the RotoGuru forum, or by sending an email to the Commissioner. If at least 3 managers protest a trade within 24 hours of its announcement, then all managers will be polled within the next 24 hours. If seven or more managers vote to veto a trade, then it will not be approved. If a proposed trade is announced less than 24 hours before the earliest freeze for any player involved, then the entire trade will not be processed until the following week. If a trade does not receive at least 3 protests, then it will be effective 24 hours after it is announced. If a trade receives at least 3 protests but the protests are not upheld in a full league vote, then the trade will be processed 48 hours after it is announced. The trade deadline is 11:30pm EST on November 9. Trading is not allowed after the deadline until keepers have been declared the following summer. PLAYOFFS 8 teams Top 6 W/L records are seeded 1-6 Top remaining total points are seeded 7-8 Teams with equivalent W/L records are seeded based on head-to-head first, then total points Bracket is fixed (no reseeding after each round) Players at the primary skill positions (QB, RB, WR) and team defenses may not be added for any reason during the playoffs. Free agents at these positions will be locked out after the final regular season game. You may drop a player at one of these positions, but once dropped, that player cannot be added later. Players at the other positions (TE, PK, IDP) may be added or dropped according to normal regular season guidelines, subject to playoff claiming priorities, if applicable. If a playoff game ends in a tie score, the team with the better seed shall advance. Team which are not still active in the Championship playoffs may not make any transactions - adds or drops - even if they are still competing in the Consolation bracket. CONSOLATION BOWL AND DRAFT ORDER A Consolation Bracket will be established for the 4 lowest ranked teams at the end of the regular season (using regular season W/L%). The teams will be seeded 1-4. In NFL Week 14, Seed 1 plays Seed 4 and Seed 2 plays Seed 3. The winners of those two games play in NFL Week 15 in the Toilet Bowl. The winner of the Toilet Bowl is awarded the first pick in the next fantasy draft. The other 13 draft positions will be slotted based on the reverse of the final regular season standings (using W/L%). The draft will maintain its order for the first 3 rounds and begin to snake in round 4. Beginning in that round, all even numbered rounds will be in the reverse order of the odd numbered rounds. MISCELLANEOUS 1. Players who are not eligible to play in the current NFL year, or who are under contract or obligation to non-NFL professional or collegiate football teams, may not be added to fantasy rosters. Players who have at one time been drafted or under contract in the NFL are exempt from this restriction . 170 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Mon, Sep 03, 2007, 17:01 Everything above looks good to me except this: The trade deadline is 11:30pm EST on November 9. Trading is not allowed after the deadline until keepers have been declared the following summer. I think the rules should say the trading deadline is noon the day prior to the first scheduled game of week 13. Week 13 is the last regular season game for our league. This year week 13 starts on 29 Nov (Thursday game), so that would be 28 Nov as the dealine. Unless there is a good reason to have an earlier cut-off date, but we are a different dynamic as a keeper league. I would also like to see it amended to say that trades are opened back up following the completion of the season unless the decision has been made that we won't actually have draft pick trades for the following seasons. 171 leggestand       ID: 51859316       Mon, Sep 03, 2007, 18:03 Looks good, MC, except I agree with TB's thoughts in post 170. 172 The Beezer       Dude       ID: 191202817       Mon, Sep 03, 2007, 18:15 I'd also like to propose that snaking of the draft picks not begin until round 6 since 5 keepers can be kept. Everything else looks good including TB's amendments in post 170. 173 Taxman       SuperDude       ID: 029463114       Mon, Sep 03, 2007, 23:24 I concur with 172. Draft doesn't snake until round 6. and MC..thanks for dropping "poochy" off my squad. 174 Challenger       Sustainer       ID: 481126818       Mon, Sep 03, 2007, 23:36 The trade deadline is 11:30pm EST on November 9. Trading is not allowed after the deadline until keepers have been declared the following summer. Nov 9th date is fine with me. I see no good reason to go to the last week of the regular season. 175 judy       ID: 7771722       Tue, Sep 04, 2007, 14:56 Question for GURU (or anyone else who knows the answer) from AA commish: Thanks. I am supposed to set the claims order manually using worse record to best. I guess I am confused because one of the drop down options for the claims to be set automatically IS from worst to first (by percentage of the season or by total points so far) so why would I need to do it manually? Also I am no where near a computer from 9 am Wednesays until evening around 8, so the claim deadline of Weds noon (to file for a player) works, but the free agent drops/adds time of 1:00 Weds does not as I will not have had time to process the claims (unless AOL does it automatically?) 176 Doug       ID: 441251914       Tue, Sep 04, 2007, 18:31 Just an observation... if everyone were to keep 5 "round 5 or better" keepers and basically lose their round 1-5 picks... then if we snake in round 6 we'd actually start with reverse order. This is unlikely, but given that round 6 is likely to be the first "full" round of drafting, perhaps we start snaking in round 7? Doesn't make a big diff to me, just thought I'd throw it out there. 177 Mötley Crüe       ID: 15723310       Tue, Sep 04, 2007, 20:43 Maybe the whole draft should be in the same order; no snaking. I've played in a keeper league before and we did it that way. It's not a bad system. Snaking is not a surefire way to improve bad teams anyway. I think it basically ensures balance in the first 2 or maybe 4 rounds. And we'll be starting in what is essentially the 3rd or 4th round every year anyway. After that, drafting is a bit of a crapshoot. NFL draft doesn't snake. 178 leggestand       ID: 51859316       Tue, Sep 04, 2007, 21:26 I agree with MC. 179 GoatLocker       Sustainer       ID: 060151121       Tue, Sep 04, 2007, 21:32 I don't have a problem with non-snake at all, as I think that is what I originally proposed. And everything else works fine for me also. Cliff 180 Sludge       ID: 177131910       Tue, Sep 04, 2007, 21:44 Sludge, You mentioned on RotoGuru you would struggle thru the draft. Uhhh, no offense, but you are greatly. While the players you drafted are fine, it's the fact that your QB and all 3 RB's have the same bye week of 8. The other woory was when you drafted Driver he had been injured last weekend. At the time the Packers were not revealing anything to the extent of his ankle/foot injury. You got lucky as the Green Bay finally announced he should be back week one of the season. It makes no sense to start a keeper league team in what I perceive as deep in the hole. But then again I'm not liking my team now. Points noted, offense taken. Thanks. 181 Taxman       SuperDude       ID: 029463114       Tue, Sep 04, 2007, 22:18 My post 173 withdrawn. A no snake draft is my choice. 182 Athletics Guy       ID: 477573110       Wed, Sep 05, 2007, 18:36 I should be allowed to pick up my kicker now right? It gives me the "Your league rules do not allow for owners to make preseason player adds/drops. Please contact your commissioner for this type of transaction." message when I try to do that. 183 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Wed, Sep 05, 2007, 18:51 After reading through the two threads and pondering the issues, the only things I see left to vote on are snaking draft or not, and the trade deadline--whether to have one or not, and if so, when it comes into effect. Please vote on the following items in this thread. 8 votes are needed to pass an option. For the trade deadline question, please post your two preferred options. Item A Subsequent drafts should: A. Follow a snaking pattern starting in round 6 (even numbered rounds draft in reverse order of odd numbered rounds). B. Not snake at all. Each round will utilize the same order. Item B (choose two) Regarding a trading deadline: A. There should not be one. Trades should be allowed at any time, 365 days a year, subject to normal Commissioner approval and draft-pick rules. B. The deadline should commence on 29 November at noon EST for the duration of the fantasy season and playoffs. Trades should be allowed again once the playoffs finish. [The TB proposal from 170 above] C. The deadline should commence on 29 November at noon EST for the duration of the fantasy season and playoffs. All trading is then prohibited until 1 week before the fantasy draft the following season, when keepers are due. D. The deadline should be 11:30pm EST on November 9. All trading is then prohibited until 1 week before the fantasy draft the following season, when keepers are due. [Current wording] Please remember to vote for your favorite two in order of preference for Item B. 184 leggestand       Leader       ID: 451036518       Wed, Sep 05, 2007, 18:57 Item A: B Item B: B then C 185 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Wed, Sep 05, 2007, 19:06 AG, I just changed the settings to allow Free Agent pick ups. Did you try a claim in the claiming system this week? For those that did, can you please let me know if things seemed to go off well or if there were any hiccups? 186 GoatLocker       Sustainer       ID: 060151121       Wed, Sep 05, 2007, 19:24 Item A: B Item B: B, C 187 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Wed, Sep 05, 2007, 19:39 Item A: B Item B: B then A I picked A as the 2nd option only because I do not like the "no trading until all keepers are declared and all the remaining players are tossed back into the kitty" options in C and D. I really don't like A either. 188 Athletics Guy       ID: 477573110       Wed, Sep 05, 2007, 19:49 Thanks MC, my FA pickup went through. Item A: B Item B: B then C 189 I_AM_CANADIAN       Donor       ID: 1361448       Wed, Sep 05, 2007, 20:09 Item A: A Item B: B then C 190 Sludge       ID: 177131910       Wed, Sep 05, 2007, 20:31 A: B B: B then C 191 The Beezer       Dude       ID: 191202817       Wed, Sep 05, 2007, 21:55 Item A: B Item B: B then D 192 Doug       ID: 441251914       Thu, Sep 06, 2007, 02:07 A: A (except it should be round 7) B: B, C (except as noted in 170 it should be first game of week 13, as opposed to Nov. 29th every year) 193 Guru       ID: 330592710       Thu, Sep 06, 2007, 08:54 Item A: B Item B: B then C What is the draft order? Is it based only on regular season standings? Or does the playoff winner get the last pick, regardless of seed? 194 boikin       ID: 59831214       Thu, Sep 06, 2007, 11:48 Item A: B Item B: B then C 195 The Beezer       Dude       ID: 191202817       Thu, Sep 06, 2007, 12:06 I think the draft order is based on regular season standings only. From MC: CONSOLATION BOWL AND DRAFT ORDER A Consolation Bracket will be established for the 4 lowest ranked teams at the end of the regular season (using regular season W/L%). The teams will be seeded 1-4. In NFL Week 14, Seed 1 plays Seed 4 and Seed 2 plays Seed 3. The winners of those two games play in NFL Week 15 in the Toilet Bowl. The winner of the Toilet Bowl is awarded the first pick in the next fantasy draft. The other 13 draft positions will be slotted based on the reverse of the final regular season standings (using W/L%). The draft will maintain its order for the first 3 rounds and begin to snake in round 4. Beginning in that round, all even numbered rounds will be in the reverse order of the odd numbered rounds. 196 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Thu, Sep 06, 2007, 17:50 Maybe we should modify that to reflect the Playoff results. That obviously isn't something that needs to be decided before the season starts, but if anyone wants to throw out an argument either way, I'm all ears. There are 8 votes for the non-snaking draft, so that is now Man Law in this league. TB's trade deadline already has 10 votes, so that one wins as well. The only trade moratorium will occur each year during our league playoffs. As Doug mentioned, the rules will reflect the beginning and end of the trade freeze in terms of NFL weeks 13 through 16 as opposed to a calendar date. I'm going to wrap up the rules debates now, with the exception of the future draft orders question. At this point, I like what we have and can't think of anything else to change. I'd like to keep things status quo until the offseason, if at all possible. Of course I would love to have your suggestions for rules changes. But I think we're through with the major ones until we see how things work out this first season. 197 Guru       ID: 330592710       Thu, Sep 06, 2007, 17:59 I assume the NFL draft order does take the playoffs into account? Maybe the playoff winner should get the last pick, the runner-up should get the next-to-last, and all other teams should be sequenced by reverse standings. You could argue that a #8 seed that wins it all is just getting lucky, and shouldn't get stuck with the last pick. Conversely, maybe that team started slow but built the team over the season through shrewd trading and/or free agent pickups, and really did finish with the best team. 198 The Beezer       Dude       ID: 191202817       Thu, Sep 06, 2007, 18:09 This is what Sportsline has posted about the NFL's draft order. I like Guru's idea regarding the champ and runner-up, with everyone else staying in the same place (excluding the Toilet Bowl winner picking first), and that would seem to align it with NFL rules as I read them. Draft positions are determined by record, the team with the worst record during the regular season picks first and so on. If two teams have the same record, the strength of schedule tie-breaker is used which is the combined winning percentage of all teams on each team's schedule for the current season. If teams are still tied after strength of schedule has been applied, the division or conference tie breakers are used. If teams are still tied after applying all tiebreakers or if two teams are tied that are in different conferences, a coin toss after the season will determnined which team gets priority. The Super Bowl winner automatically picks 32nd while the Super Bowl loser picks 31st regardless of regular season record. All other playoff teams are placed in the selection order based on their regular season record upon losing their playoff game. If a playoff team and a non-playoff team are tied based on regular season record, the non-playoff team will pick first. If two playoff teams are tied based on regular season record, the team that lost in the earlier round of the playoffs will select first. If both playoff teams that have the same record exited the playoffs in the same round, the strength-of-schedule tiebreaker is applied. 199 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Thu, Sep 06, 2007, 18:13 I think the league champion should draft last. If he wins the championship, he's got a good team. Maybe not the best, but I can't imagine rewarding a league winner by moving them up in the draft. How would we justify telling the runner up he gets the last pick? Seems wrong to me. I know what I originally put in the custom rules doesn't reflect my opinion. I honestly don't know why I wrote that. Personally, I like what the NFL does: playoff teams fill out the end in reverse order of their finish and the rest of the league is ranked by W/L% (and the first pick goes to the Toilet Bowl winner in our case). 200 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Thu, Sep 06, 2007, 18:19 I just realized I made an error in the post about the trade deadline options. The date is Wednesday 28 November at noon. This is reflected in the rules at the Fanball Commissioner website. 201 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Sun, Sep 09, 2007, 10:36 As a reminder, our league lineup rules call for 2 WR, 1 TE, and 1 WR/TE on offense and 1LB, 1 DL, 1 DB, and 3 FLEX on defense. I'm going to look through the starting lineups at about noon today to ensure I don't see any nonconforming lineups. Unfortunately the game software won't tell you if your lineup is invalid in some instances (like trying to start 3 WR, 2 TE, and 5 IDP). But if your lineup is invalid, I will come calling to fix it, even after the fact. Checking your own lineups (for each game of the doubleheader) will help to keep these situations from arising. Thanks for your cooperation, everyone. 202 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Sun, Sep 09, 2007, 12:18 ATTENTION DOUG Please check your lineups. The website is showing you have not set the lineup for the second game of your doubleheader vs Oaktown Raiders. 203 TB       Sherpa       ID: 031811922       Sun, Sep 09, 2007, 12:24 I suggest auto-set his second game with the same roster. I also think we need a new season discussion thread. 204 Mötley Crüe       Dude       ID: 439372011       Sun, Sep 09, 2007, 13:05 Done and done; click here for new thread. 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