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Subject: Renovation of the Heart: Book Discussion
Posted by: G
- Donor [5810561615] Wed, Mar 01, 2006, 13:56
At least myself and one other person will be reading Renovation of the Heart during Lent. We will be posting interesting points and our thoughts in this thread. At the end I will delete it.
Description:
We aren't born to stay the way we are. But how many times have we looked around us in dismay at the lack of spiritual maturity in fellow believers? It is evident in the rising rate of divorces among Christian couples. We find it in the high percentages of Christians, even pastors, who regularly view pornography. And we face it each time a well-known leader in the Christian community is found in sexual sin or handling finances dishonestly. Perhaps you have struggled with your own character issues for years, even decades, to little avail. There is good news. In Renovation of the Heart best-selling author Dallas Willard calls it "the transformation of the spirit" - a divine process that "brings every element in our being, working from inside out, into harmony with the will of God or the kingdom of God." In the transformation of our spirits, we become apprentices of Jesus Christ. |
| 1 | G
Donor
ID: 5810561615
Wed, Mar 01, 2006, 16:36
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Prelude
My Summary
The gospels give many readers an impression that they are looking at another world or another life. Yet, there are ordinary people that have entered into this life/world. Jesus tells us this is possible in His own words – we can receive the “Living Water”. Paul tells us the same thing in Eph 3:19-20 – know the love of Christ that surpasses all knowledge. Peter (in 1 Peter 1:8) tells us those that who love and trust Jesus rejoice with indescribable and glorious joy.
The message then is clear. Yet in may historical periods and even today, it is both a difficult and slow process for Christians to find this life if they even find it at all. One reason why is that the life they see in the New Testament is so unlike the life they see and experience right now.
Why is this? It isn’t an unsolvable puzzle, so we must not be receiving or approaching this life in the right way. Our lack of comprehension interferes with our ability to transform quickly and easily. We need to understand what needs to be done and how it needs to be done.
Spiritual formation in Christ is an orderly process. We must humble ourselves and except Gods way that he has chosen for us. This process is clearly laid out in the Bible in the words and person of Jesus Christ. We are invited to leave our burdens – especially the religious ones!
There is good news in this. The perceived difficulty of entering into this world can be removed or mastered. We can experience a life of victory over both sin and circumstances. And the perhaps the best thing is this doesn’t require special facilities, programs, talents, or even budget! It only requires a faithfulness to the process of spiritual formation set forth by Christ through the Scriptures
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| 2 | G
Donor
ID: 5810561615
Wed, Mar 01, 2006, 16:44
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prayer: Lord as we embark on this journey, we invite the guidance of your holy spirit and I ask that you open our hearts to your will and your wisdom
Thoughts
I am pumped about this process and the content of this book. I certainly have felt that "being like Jesus" is a distant thing for me and if I ever even reached that goal it would be acheived slowy, just as Dallas says many people believe. I am looking forward to reading what he has to say. I would imagine there will be many challenges ahead as we go through this book.
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| 3 | G
Donor
ID: 5810561615
Thu, Mar 02, 2006, 18:11
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I am off tomorrow so i will pst this summary now and comment during the day tomorrow:
Chapter 1 – Introducing Spiritual Formation
What drives and organizes our life is not physical. Our spirit has a character that has been formed from our experiences and choices we have lived through or made in our past. Our life and our “world” are a result of what lies in the depths of spirit/will/heart.
This formation did not “just happen” to us. It is almost 100% the result of our human choices. Of course various qualifications and explanations are needed to understand this. However, the idea is that a carefully cultivated heart, assisted by the grace of God, will foresee, forestall, or transform painful situations that cause others to stand like helpless children asking the question “Why?”
For many, our spiritual place, the place provides us with our view of the world that makes our choices and allows our actions, has been formed away from God. Because of that, the greatest need many of us have is a transformation of our heart.
The Revolution of Jesus
Two thousand years ago Jesus gathered a group of disciples and told them to GO and “teach all nations” to even the remote corners of the world. The intention was to bring earth in line with God’s eternal plan for the universe. This was a world revolution and is one still in progress until God’s will is done.
The revolution of Jesus is a revolution of the human heart or spirit. It is a revolution that changes peoples ideas, beliefs, feelings, habits of choice, as well as social tendencies. Through this renovation of the human heart, social structures will naturally be transformed since a renovated heart will not cooperate with unrighteousness.
TS Eliot once said that humans are searching for a system so perfect that we will not have to be good. Jesus wants us to be good. This is why Jesus didn’t send his students out to start governments or even churches. They were instead asked to start beachheads of his person, word, and power in the midst of failing humanity.
The Human “Within”
What makes our lives go as they do? What could make them go as they ought to? Many folks search and search for the answers to these questions. However, there inability to find an answer leaves them at the mercy of the events happening around them.
Good and bad things will happen to everyone. However, what our life amounts to really depends on who we are “within”. This is the arena of our spiritual formation and transformation. What is in our heart matters more than anything else for who we become and what becomes of us and Jesus is the answer to our deepest needs within this arena.
All of us are somewhat conscious of our world “within”. It impacts how we approach our world and the actions we take. However, our the thoughts feelings and intentions that we are aware of are only a small part of the ones that are really there….deep inside. What we would think feel and do in certain circumstances may be completely unknown to us. We often know very little about what moves our own soul at the deepest level. Our “within” is very complex and it takes on a life of its own. Only God knows our depths.
The Spiritual Aspect of Man
The meaning of the word spiritual is often unclear. In a sense, spiritual is the “nonphysical” and yes the inner world of the human self is indeed spiritual. For all our fine advances in scientific knowledge, nothing tells us about our inner life. Sciences cover the world of the five senses. But the sciences miss the heart. Yet the spiritual world is always with us. It is what we celebrate in our arts, biographies, history, and popular writings. The spiritual world is our life no matter grand theories we may hold to be intellectual or up-to-date.
The human depths of us shout at us that the physical/public side of the human universe can’t sustain our existence. Man shall not live on bread alone. That takes us back to Jesus. If we are to walk with him we must do so at that “inner level”. He saves us by the restoration of our heart. A heart, renovated and inhabited by Christ, is the only real hope for humanity on earth.
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| 4 | G
ID: 329361323
Sun, Mar 05, 2006, 22:02
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I have finished chapter one. Here are my thoughts on my summary above. The rest of the Chapter one summary will follow in the next post.
I beleive I am guilty of allowing this earthly life to play to great a role in my formation. I know I am aware of things that I should not be doing, thinking, watching, considering, etc. but I get wrapped up in the earthly moment.
I don't think I have done this so much that I am like a helpless child asking "why?". If something happen to my family, a friend or other loved ones, I would be deeply saddened just like Christ was for Lazareth. However, I don't think I would walking around saying poor me, or why did this happen? So my earthly downfalls lie more in "things","experience", "money", "being right or winning", "frustration of people", etc. For that, I am praying to experience a renovation of the heart.
Jesus told His disciples to go to the remote places of the world. I heard Andy Stanley point out yesterday that 2000 years ago the United States was truely a "remote" place. The center of our world, the stongest country is not in the middle east where Christianity started, but instead it is in one of the most remaote places in the world. There are still other places that it has not spread to, but this is work in progress. How amazing!
I am not into politics much. There are very few issues I pay attention too. The single biggest issue for me is abortion. If our coubtry ever corrected this atrocity, I would probably fall more in-line with the left (still close to the middle tho). I am pleased to see Dallas talk about how we are not to be concerned with governement or even churches for that matter. I also find myself not aligned with any specific sect. I think this has hurt the message of Christ as we struggle to unite ourselves, how are we going to make ourselves appealing to others?
I found it intersting how he talked about our deepest thoughts and feelings, which truely define us, are unkown even to us (but not to God). I always think about Columbine in Colorado. That girl who told her killer she was a Christian when a gun was at her head comes to mind. What would I do? Would I be like Peter and deny him? Would I be like that girl and proclaim Christ to my death. I know what I would want to say. I know that as I grow deeper in my faith, the answer should be simple. Yet, would I think of my wife? Would I think of my kids wihtout a father? I don't know.
I think it is interesting that I country relies soley on the physical to conduct itself and yet that is only half (if that) of what life is all about. We live in "physical" world. Our laws, our entertainment, everything outside of church reeks of physical. It is completely unable to address the spiritual side of us.
Till next time....
G
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| 5 | Rob
ID: 6252120
Mon, Mar 06, 2006, 12:40
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This is a modification of a posting I put on the “Bible-in-a-Year” blog that Amee Christensen started. So I apologize if some of you have already seen some of this. I have added to it though. The beginning starts out addressing a book entitled “Gnostic Secrets of the Naassene Sermon” that I had read.
The Naassenes were a Gnostic sect that followed the apparent "secret teachings" of James, brother of Jesus. There were other Gnostic sects that followed other important people like John the Baptist. The Naassenes, as presented by this book, seemed to have similarities to what we would consider Hinduism or Buddhism today. Besides reincarnation, they believed that it was possible to achieve "spiritual attainment" and gain access to Jacobs ladder (as presented in the Bible), where you would be in connection with the spiritual realm. They also had a much greater connection with the natural world and when you think about it this makes a lot of sense. 2,000 years ago in the Middle East people would have been outside probably 90% of their day. Today, how often are we outside in a given day or week? A fraction of our time, even in the summer. The vast majority of the modern day is inside. So is it any wonder that we have become disconnected from the spiritual world? The Naassenes believed in God's immanence, meaning they believed God was everywhere and in everything. He was in the air, in the water, in the rocks...everywhere in nature. While this book makes a lot of claims that I would disagree with I think the idea that we have become disconnected from nature and that has disrupted our spiritual connection with God is sound. I believe that. When do I feel the best? When the sun is shining down on me. When I sit and watch the sun set or the stars shine. When I am outside shoveling and huge snow flakes fall on my face. The list goes on and on. We are closest to God when we see and appreciate all he has created. We need to get out of all these man-made boxes we spend so much time in. We literally put up walls between us and God.
In addition, I looked up the word "water" in the Bible and it alone appears over 600 times. And this does not include related words like rain, river, flood, etc. Think about the importance of water in the Bible. Besides the big events like the great flood, Moses parting the waters, John baptizing with water, Jesus walking on water, Jesus changing water into wine, etc. there are hundreds of other references to water. Here are but a few that I have found intriguing:
Genesis 1:6-10
And God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters." And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament "Heaven."
Exodus 2:10
When the child grew older, she took him to Pharaoh's daughter and he became her son. She named him Moses, saying, "I drew him out of the water."
Job 3:23-25
Why is life given to a man whose way is hidden, whom God has hedged in? For sighing comes to me instead of food; my groans pour out like water. What I feared has come upon me; what I dreaded has happened to me.
Jeremiah 17:13-14
O LORD, the hope of Israel, all who forsake you will be put to shame. Those who turn away from you will be written in the dust because they have forsaken the LORD, the spring of living water. Heal me, O LORD, and I will be healed; save me and I will be saved, for you are the one I praise.
Lamentations 2:19
Arise, cry out in the night, as the watches of the night begin; pour out your heart like water in the presence of the Lord.
Ezekiel 36:25-27
I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
Hosea 6:1-3
Come, let us return to the Lord; for it is he who has torn, and he will heal us; he has struck down, and he will bind us up. After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will raise us up; that we may live before him. Let us know, let us press on to know the Lord; his appearing is as sure as the dawn; he will come to us like the showers, like the spring rains that water the earth.
John 3:5
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit."
John 4:13-14
Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."
John 7:37-38
On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."
Revelation 7:17
For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.
Water was revered 2,000 years ago and was a huge part of faith and spirituality. And again, when you think about it that makes total sense. When scientists are trying to figure out if there is life on other planets, what is the one thing they search for? Water. Because they know that without water there is no life. The Bible tells us that water is the key not only to physical life, but also to spiritual life. I am also reminded of when Jesus was crucified. "Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water" (John 19:34). Recently I have begun praying every time I open a bottle of water to drink. I pray for the water to cleanse and purify me from the inside out in the name of Jesus. I think part of the problem is that in our modern world in a developed nation, clean water is so readily available. Simply turn on the tap and there it is. What a blessing that is but I think it causes us to take it for granted and not fully appreciate its importance. The ancient Hebrews also used water in their ritual cleansings. They used water to not only become physically clean, but spiritually clean as well. Here is Leviticus 14:8-9, “The person to be cleansed must wash his clothes, shave off all his hair and bathe with water; then he will be ceremonially clean…He must wash his clothes and bathe himself with water, and he will be clean.” A person had to bathe with water before they were considered clean in order to return to the temple to present an offering. And although the words “spiritually clean” are not used, I think they are implied. I do not believe they are simply addressing physical cleanliness. Today there is a great divide between the physical and the spiritual. We easily differentiate between the two. However, back then, I believe the spiritual and physical were not so easily distinguished. It seems as if the ancient Hebrews found them deeply connected, so much so that they did not differentiate between them. By cleansing the physical body you strived to achieve spiritual cleanliness. Lately I have tried to focus on this principle. While we aim to foster our spiritual lives, we must not forget about our physical bodies because I believe our physical bodies are tied into our spiritual wellness. A couple of examples: (1) Besides praying when drinking water, I also try to remember to pray in the shower, that the water may cleanse both my body and spirit; and (2) I have tried to limit those things that harm my body, mostly through what I consume. I have stopped drinking soda, which I used to drink like a fiend. I have increased the amount of water I drink during the day. Recently Hayley read “The Makers Diet” (which proposes dietary guidelines based on scripture) and we have begun to implement some of the wisdom from this book into our lives, such as not eating pork. Also, I continue to work out for many reasons, but have recently added to the list that I want God to see that I am taking care of this body he created for me. I believe physical discipline like this will aid in my spiritual growth.
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| 6 | CDAWG
ID: 40218618
Mon, Mar 06, 2006, 20:02
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Prelude:
I have never really thought of the New Testament times as a "divine world and divine life". I think they had the same sin, temptation, and problems we have today. I look at what happened to Jesus and still can't believe he was cricified. What is evident is that people in a fallen world have been in need of "Renovation of the Heart" since the fall and Jesus is the only hope and answer.
The section in the prelude that intrigues me is where Willard says " Spiritual formation in Christ is an orderly process. Although God can triumph in disorder, that is not his choice.And instead of focusing on what God can do, we must humble ourselves to accept the ways he has chosen to work with us. These are clearly laid out in the Bible, and especially in the words and person of Jesus."
Have I missed out on this process?I am not sure where this process is found but want to find out.I look forward to learning this process and hope it is as clear to me as it is to him. The first time I read the prelude and chapter 1 this material was over my head. I picked up the Bible after my first reading and I had no problem understaning Jeremiah or Matthew. A few people asked me if I had prayed before the reading. My answer was no. After praying before my 2nd reading my eyes and mind understood what was being taught. I have never done anything like this so bear with me as I try to share my thoughts. I am not much of a writer or journaler so if you have any suggestions let me know.
Cdawg
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| 7 | CDAWG
ID: 40218618
Mon, Mar 06, 2006, 20:33
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Chapter 1:
I have a spirit within me and it has been formed. I am not excited about the way it has been formed.
Willard says about the human spirit "... it takes on whichever character it has from the experiences and the choices that we have lived through or made in our past."
Choices I made as a child, as a young adult, and as a college student have helped form my spirit.
This concerns me since I made some poor choices.In a recent series at my church about temptation Andy talked about how sin and temptation effect a lot more than we think about at the moment the decision has been made. Sin effects your family, your future, and your faith. The series was titled Pause. Andy says that in that moment of temptation that we should pause and consider that giving in to the temptation will effect these areas of our life.
I look at some of the choices I made when I was younger and continue to make and sure enough they have effected my family, my future and my faith.
Willard says that human choices (sin) in today's world result in famine, war, and epidemic. There sure are consequences from sin. This is why my heart must be transformed.
More to follow later from Chapter 1
Cdawg
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| 8 | G
ID: 329361323
Mon, Mar 06, 2006, 22:57
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Hey Rob and CDAWG...welcome!
Rob has your book arrived yet? Thanks for the invite last Friday. Sorry I didn't get your message until after I had left for the day. I heard about your membership at Valley Natural Foods. What does that mean? Do they charge like Sams? I know things are cheaper sometimes for folks who ar members but I have never had time to ask.
CDAWG, your post was great for the first time :). My thoughts on your post:
I have never really thought of the New Testament times as a "divine world and divine life".
I read this as Dallas speaking specifically and only about the life of Christ and the message he was preaching. That life is truly a divine world, but everyone else in there is just like us.
I had the same thoughts about the "orderly process" and also wondered if I had somehow missed it.
I think we all have choices in our passed that we would not choose over. I am not sure if I had made more good choices or if my memory is just that bad but in general my poor choices or my hardend heart are tied mostly to my treatment of others and my lack of compassion. I like the comment you added by Andy. That is certainly true and lines up with Dallas and his comments about the depth of spirit being way deeper than we think about or recognize in our daily decisions.
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| 9 | G
ID: 329361323
Mon, Mar 06, 2006, 23:23
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continuing chapter 1... Spirituality and Spiritual Formation as Merely Human
What jumped out at me the most as Dallas toalks about the "Human" attempts at spiritual formation was this:
Societies the world around are currently in desparate straits trying to produce people who are merely capable of coping with their life on earth in a nondestructive manner
How sad but true is that. When the heart is formed away from God, the focus is just trying to get by each day without killing each other. There really is no human solution to this problem.
Reaching Beyond the Merely Human
The necessary goal of human life is far greater than just not killing each other, it is a transformation into the goodness seen in Jesus.
It completely makes sense why secular society often sees Christians as hypocrites. How many have actually accomplished this? Instead we talk about being Christians but ACT like secular society.....guilty as charged here more often than I would like to admit.
God Moves Forward
Dallas tells us there are over 33,800 different forms of Christian denominations on earth...UGH! That is so sad. How can we further honor and glorify God and further His cause when we are so divided as a body of Christ.
Of course he goes on to say that what unifies us goes than our religious association (yes..lose your religion rings loud and clear to me here) to our heart and our spiritual formation.
Distinctively Christian Spiritual Formation
A successful spiritual formation in Christ will cause the natural expression or outflow of our outer life to refelct the character of Jesus. This is when I feel like a Pharisee sometimes. I feel like I know what is right and wrong, but I my outflow doesn't always line up with my knowledge. The complete obedience is missing roughly 10-20% of the time in my life.
Jesus teaches about these in the Sermon on the Mount....acting out in anger (yep, mostly with the wife or kids), looking to lust (if you can sin in thought alone, definitely guilty of this one), returning evil for evil ( not so much but the thought often crosses my mind first only to be controlled. I have made great strides in this area over the years).
Well it's 10:20 here and the wife just went o bed. With two sections left in chapter 1, I will finish my review tomorrow by 4:30.
We can use the next 24 hours to discuss these comments and then move on to Chapter 2 starting Wednesday/Thursday pending discussion.
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| 10 | G
Donor
ID: 5810561615
Tue, Mar 07, 2006, 13:23
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Lunch time...
A Way of Grace and Rest
This section talks about how it isn't just a loving behavior, wish or intent to love that matters. That merely trying to act lovingly will lead to despair and defeat. I sadly believe this defines me more often than not. I act loving far more often than I actually feel it.
Dallas goes on to say if we can take God's kind of love deep into our being that it will allow us to act loving in ways that surprise ourselves. Sign me up! I am certainly open to this.
The last part was more of a summary and picture of what's to come so no new comments.
That would end my posts on chapter one (unless others post and we have back and forth on those posts). I will wait and see what transpires in the next 24 hours.
G
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| 11 | Rob
ID: 6252120
Thu, Mar 09, 2006, 01:38
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“But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.”
These verses sadden me so much because they remind me how short I fall. How much my spirituality is harmed by physical temptations and sin. My own thoughts are my worst enemy.
I had thought earlier (but did not write) that I believe there is an inner and an outer spirituality. Some people have an outer spirituality, where they might be really active in their church and attend multiple Bible studies, but then they lack any inner conviction or morality. Obviously though no one (besides Jesus) has that inner or outer spirituality 100% of the time. With me it ebbs and flows. Some days/weeks I feel really connected to God and really have a sense of wholeness and other days/weeks I feel like I am stumbling around in the dark.
Garrett you wrote “I act loving far more often than I actually feel it.” However, I think there are times when you have to act it even though you don’t feel it. Times when you have to use your intellect to convince yourself to do something or respond in a certain way (because your emotions are telling you to be angry, callous, bitter, etc.) in the hope that the inner spirituality/emotional connection will follow. I know this has happened to me on a few occasions. One example is when Olivia was sick a while back. She developed this really terrible cough that would wake her up all night long and it lingered for a full 7 or 8 days. And Olivia is a terrible sick kid, she just gets super weepy and whiny and after 7 nights of this I was ready to start breaking stuff in frustration because the only remedy was to sleep with her on the couch holding her upright and obviously this is a very uncomfortable position for me especially after many nights. (Can you say “run-on sentence?) So anyway, I lied in bed one night after hearing her cough and I was pissed. I prayed and prayed for her healing night after night and her she was again coughing like a seal once again. My mind (and emotions) are telling me that I need to get a good night sleep. I need to take care of myself in order to be able to take care of her. I should just let her cough and go back to sleep. Finally, I convince myself otherwise and I get her and head down to the couch. And as I sit there with her snoring on my shoulder I realize what an opportunity I have here. I have a chance to be Jesus. I cannot cure her or end her suffering, but I can take on her suffering as my own. As I come to this realization, my inner spirituality and heart followed. I developed a great sense of peace and found meaning in a situation that I previously perceived as a great annoyance. It was that very next night she stopped coughing. Just another learning experience God put in my path. I thought of this experience also when I read what Garrett wrote: “…if we can take God's kind of love deep into our being that it will allow us to act loving in ways that surprise ourselves.” I agree that it would be awesome to be able to feel this way all the time rather than just on a few isolated occasions. I suppose that’s the goal.
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| 12 | G
Donor
ID: 5810561615
Tue, Mar 14, 2006, 10:31
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Rob,
I like your analogy and I have certainly been in your situation before. However, I will take it one step further.
I think there is a list of people in my life that I "love" and would do anything for (like the example you gave above with your daughter). Even tho I may not feel great about it at the moment, I know it is what i wan to be doing deep inside.
On the other hand, there are people in my life that I don't feel a whole lot of "love" for. I have to act interested in what they are talking about at work or at social gatherings. If asked to help with something my first instinct would be to see if someone else could do it first, you know, someone that fits into their "love" category. In the end I may be a part of the help but deep inside I probably wouldn't want to be.
I think that is what I am praying to get out of this. The big picture love that God has and wants us to have. You know the ability to see beyond my narrow love of friends and family to the point where I see everyone as part as God's family and have the ability to love that goes with that grander vision.
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| 13 | G
Donor
ID: 5810561615
Tue, Mar 14, 2006, 13:24
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Chapter 2, Part I
Chapter 2
To care for your spirit, you must understand it.
The academic today govern the idea systems of the world and oppose the traditional views of human nature. We see humans as purely physical, just an animal basically. They also feel that human beings should not be forced to do anything they don’t want to do. Today, governmental and social institutions are heavily invested in these opinions of the human being.
I found this section to be a solid support to my oppositions of abortion. It is easy for folks to just kill a human life when it is basically an animal, which is what society treats it as. However, when you start to attach a spiritual side to that life you can longer treat it the same way.
Six Basic Aspects of Human Life
1. Thought: our images, concepts, judgments, inferences
Thought brings things before our mind. Thought allows us to range far beyond our “here and now” to reach past, present, future, imagination, art, etc.
2. Feeling: our five senses and our emotions
Once something comes before our mind in “thought”, our “feelings” guide us toward or away from things.
(Note: Feeling and thought ALWAYS go together)
3. Choice: Our will/heart/spirit, the decisions we make and our character)
Heart/Will/Spirit (CEO or head of the Family)
This is the executive center of the human life, the core of the person. It is where decisions and choices are made for the whole person. Here is where we have the power to do good and evil. This ability lies in the individual alone. NOTHING MAKES them do it.
Just thinking about a temptation and then quickly discarding the thought is not sin. Sin is occurs when the thought comes to the mind and then it is lingered over or sought out.
Often the heart/will/spirit can be divided (just like a company or family can be). This leads to conflict. Therefore, a life must by the heart/will/spirit if it is going to be organized. Thus, successful spiritual formation is when your hear/spirit/will is organized around God.
4. Body: How we are able to act and interact with the physical world
This part was pretty self explanatory. Yet what I found most interesting is that Dallas talks about the body being our personal power pack allowing us to stand in defiance to God if we want. It is like a space pod departing from the mother ship to complete a mission. That driver of that ship is free as soon as it departs that ship. It can go or do whatever it wants. Like the body, the pod will run out of energy on its own eventually. So the driver can either go out an complete the mission as directed and be welcomed back to the mother ship at the right time or it can do whatever it wants and face the consequences of those decisions either not returning at all or returning to face judgment.
5. Social context: Our personal and structural relations to others
People, in general, think more about God than about anything else. We are all tied to God. Our relations to each other cannot be right unless we see others in their relation to God. So we need to be in right relation with God and with other human beings.
6. Soul: What integrates all of the above to form one life.
The soul is that dimension of the person that interrelates all of the other dimensions together so that they form one life. The soul encompasses the whole person. It is the deepest part of the person.
More later today....
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| 14 | Rob
ID: 6252120
Thu, Mar 16, 2006, 21:57
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Garrett and Todd and whoever else,
I have been distracted by a family situation so have not had much chance to keep up on this dialogue. I finally have a copy of the book. We are heading to Chicago again this weekend so I will try to make some progress and catch up to you guys. I certainly need the spiritual lift. Will hopefully be able to offer a better response in a few days.
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| 15 | Stuck in the 60s
Dude
ID: 274132811
Fri, Mar 17, 2006, 07:22
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it is easy for folks to just kill a human life when it is basically an animal, which is what society treats it as. However, when you start to attach a spiritual side to that life you can longer treat it the same way.
I guess I miss the point.
Consider two victims of a car accident, one human, one not. Both are killed,having been thrown through the windshield and decapitated.
There they are, side-by-side in death.
I've always had trouble imagining their post-death situations to be different; it's hard for me to conceive that when the bodies begin to decay that there is some inherent difference between the two mounds of rotting flesh.
Don
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| 16 | G
Donor
ID: 5810561615
Fri, Mar 17, 2006, 13:08
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Rob,
Our families thoughts and prayers will be with you during this difficult and challenging time.
God bless,
G
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| 17 | G
Donor
ID: 5810561615
Fri, Mar 17, 2006, 14:02
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SIT60's
I guess that is where items 3 and 6 come into play. The physical body is the house of the non-physical human spirit and soul. All living things (plants, animals, and humans) grow, nourish themselves, and reproduce. Animals and humans move and perceive. But only humans do all of the above and reason, as well. This and the universal draw that humans have to God (across all time, place and culture), provide some examples of how the death of a human and the death of a non-human can be quite different (although the decay of the physical is the same).
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| 18 | G
ID: 329361323
Mon, Mar 20, 2006, 18:13
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My son is home sick today so I thought I would jump to chapter 3. CDAWG, get in here :)
Well, I must admit both chapter 1 and 2 were filled with thought provoking and challenging material that sent me back over the material on more than one occasion. However, chapter 3 can be best described as a chapter filled with wisdom. Here are the comments that jumped out at me:
If we were insignificant, our ruin would not be horrifying
the real sources of our failures lie in choice and the factors at work in it. Choice is where sin dwells
Our social and psychological sciences stand helpless before the terrible things done by human beings.
The only solution we know to human problems today is “education”. Education might be a good thing, who can deny that? It could help. But what kind of education? Can we really think that if people only KNEW what it today generally understood to be the right thing to do, they would do it? Education cannot come to grips with the realities of the human self. The institution of education has now adopted values, attitudes, and practices that make any rigorous understanding of the human self and life impossible.
When Jesus was talking to the Pharisees, Jesus points out how they love and vie for public recognition or approval and how by doing so they are like graves, all nice and pretty on the outside but full of disgusting rot on the inside. They are unable to believe in Jesus because they are so consumed by there desire to be honored by each other
Proverbs 9:10 tells us Fear of God, is the beginning of wisdom. One who does not, in a certain sense “worry” about God, simply isn’t smart.
And my favorite part of chapter 3:
When God is being God, it offends human pride. If God is running the universe, guess who isn’t running the universe and doesn’t get to have things as they please. Yes that’s rights, the want to be god human.
Folks who turn from God ultimately turn to the physical human body for pleasure. What most human fail to recognize is that is that sensuality cannot be satisfied. The effect of engaging in practices that satisfy the body lead to deaden feeling. The more you do it, the last it satisfies and ultimately, humans seek new ways to push the limit to achieve satisfaction. Unfortunately, that new way will eventually fail to satisfy leaving humans in a downward spiral
This is a description of our society over the years. Folks are constantly pushing for legalization of drugs and sexual content/activities because current ones no longer satisfy them. What does this downward spiral get us? Dallas continues…
The outcome is a humanity filled with unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil, envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice, gossip, slander, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedience to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, and unmerciful.
Wow, that paints a pretty good picture of society today.
In fact, this the end stage of every successful human society that has arisen on earth. Invariably as society moves away from God, it begins to believe IT is responsible for its success and prosperity and begins to worship itself and rebel against the understanding and practices that allowed it, under God, to be successful in the first place.
Again, that is such a great picture of the US today. The minority continue to look for anyway possible to squeeze God out of our country. As that continues, and it will, our country will end just like the rest.
This next part is was also fabulous. I have discussions with people who don’t believe in God or have rejected God and they many times they think when they die, if there is a God, they will just ask for forgiveness or they believe that God will just forgive them for there efforts here on earth despite their rejection during their lifetime. Dallas shares this wisdom to those who think that:
Most folks aren’t choosing to go to hell or to be the kind of person that would end up there. But as they have rejected God and gotten into self worship, they are led to be the kind of person for whom “away from God” is the only place for them. In other words it is the place they are choosing to go to as they get so caught up in their human self and fail to accept God for who He is. God may be flexible but the human will is not. There becomes a breaking point that they can’t return from.
I have heard people say that if they stood before God, if they had real proof God was real and that the Bible was real, they would change. Dallas doesn’t think so. He thinks that as humans who participate in self worship and reject God, that if they can’t accept God now, what makes them think they will be able to just switch and do it later? The lost person who rejects God now is a person that seeks life without God, proof or no proof.
Well again, I really enjoyed this chapter. The downward spiral of our society, the constant pushing for more “legal” things that fly in the face of morality, which will only lead to wanting more and more and more and they still wont be satisfied. These same folks who worship themselves are lost and will most likely have a difficult accepting God as God even if He stood before them because they are to wrapped up in themselves and there own will to be god.
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| 19 | moe
ID: 181024521
Mon, Nov 05, 2007, 22:24
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I'am reading the book Renovation of the heart and theres a question that ask what does jesus mean about we will never thirst again. I'm at the point in my life where I'am learning and I dont know how to answer the question
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| 20 | Boldwin
ID: 406201020
Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 05:23
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Happy is he who is conscious of his spiritual need since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them.
4 “And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant.”
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. 2 I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” ...
22 And he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of its broad way. And on this side of the river and on that side [there were] trees of life producing twelve crops of fruit, yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves of the trees [were] for the curing of the nations.
3 And no more will there be any curse. But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in [the city]
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