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Subject: Good multivitamin / fish oil?
Posted by: Senator Urine
- [141130310] Thu, Jul 26, 2007, 17:59
Wasn't quite sure which forum to post this in, but I was wondering if anyone had any recommendations for good (preferrably cheap) multi-vitamins and fish oil capsules. I'm wondering if these could be the missing link as to why I'm not putting on muscle despite working out consistently and paying ridiculously close attention to my diet. I've done a ton of research over the past couple years and I think I'm doing things correctly. Based on my workout plan and diet it really seems like I should be growing. I'm starting to think it's just genetics at this point. Any help would be greatly appreciated. |
| 1 | angryChair
ID: 459171622
Thu, Jul 26, 2007, 20:41
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See Trader Joes for both.
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| 2 | philflyboy
ID: 111012139
Thu, Jul 26, 2007, 20:51
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www.herbalife.com lost 45 pounds in 2.5 months earlier this year and is also great for weight gain. Has a great multi vitamin as part of their core program.
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| 3 | Seattle Zen
ID: 86541617
Thu, Jul 26, 2007, 21:43
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paying ridiculously close attention to my diet.
What does this mean? You could "watch" everything you eat, but if you are not eating the right things or enough, what good is the close attention?
I'd recommend flax seed or hemp oil before fish liver. I think fish liver capsules are disgusting. They made me burp and the burps smelled like bad fish, not very pleasant.
Have you investigated creatine? Are you taking a protein drink after each workout? Perhaps you are overtraining?
Multivitamins are a great supplement for anyone. I also recommend Vitamin E and Vitamin C. I get them all at Costco.
Here is "Quackwatch" on creatine.
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| 4 | Senator Urine
ID: 141130310
Thu, Jul 26, 2007, 22:07
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For the past month this is what my diet looks like:
Protein sources:
Egg whites, canned tuna occasionally, Optimum Nutrition whey shake when I wake up, immediately before I workout, and immediately after
Carb Sources:
Oatmeal, bananas, Nature's Path Optimum Power Blueberry cereal (amazing)
Fat Sources:
Unsalted cashews, Trader Joe's chunky natural peanut butter
And skim milk, doesn't really fall into any category alone.
I've fallen into this routine since I moved out here a month ago, but I'll probably start rotating out some oatmeal and eggwhites for pasta and chicken and vegetables once I decide to stop being lazy about cooking. (I also ate a lot of flax before I moved out here, for some reason I forgot to buy it again, I'll get on that this weekend). I'm getting approximately 3000 calories a day with this (most from carbs, then protein, then fat) and for a month I've weighed myself every two days and I'm always within 1.5 lbs of 143 lbs. I'm probably going to get banned from Trader Joe's for cleaning them out of eggs.
For the past two years I haven't eaten any desert at all and am avoiding anything where I see partially hydrogenated oils, high fructose corn syrup, or anything that I can't draw for someone in the ingredients list.
The big flaw in my workout program right now is that I'm not doing legs, but that's because whenever I do my knee gets crappy and that keeps me from biking and playing basketball. I used to squat and all of that but I'm starting to think it's a choice between squatting and being able to play basketball / walk in 20 years. I don't think I'm overtraining though, I've gained in the past doing similar plans, here's what I've been doing for the past month:
Mondays: Dumbbell bench, random back exercise, seated military dumbbell press, incline dumbbell press, seated cable flys, machine lateral raise, machine shoulder press, dips
Wednesdays: Dumbbell bench, pullups, seated military dumbbell press, one armed dumbbell row, t-bar row, cable row, rear delt raise, curls
Friday: Same as Monday except replace the back exercise with a tricep isolation exercise
Saturday: Same as Wednesday except replace the two pushing exercises with shrugs and another back exercise
Three sets of each exercise.
Creatine I tried for a week once last year and I didn't like it at all. In general I don't like putting things that aren't food into my body but I gave it a shot, and all that happened was extreme thirst. I was drinking over two gallons of water a day and waking up in the middle of the night needing more.
I guess I could always up the calories some more, I'm just paranoid about gaining fat with the muscle. I know it's easier to put both on and then cut, but I'd rather try the no fat way even if it takes longer.
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| 5 | angryChair
ID: 459171622
Thu, Jul 26, 2007, 23:13
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phiboy---
How did you learn about the herbalife program?
Did you contact a local distributor....?
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| 6 | philflyboy
ID: 111012139
Fri, Jul 27, 2007, 06:14
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my brother started as a distributor a little over a year ago. After I lost all the weight people kept asking me how I did it so I became one too. It is all over the news these days with Beckham so it has been a lot of fun sharing the products.
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| 7 | Mike D
Leader
ID: 041831612
Fri, Jul 27, 2007, 08:45
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I have to agree with Zen on the protein drink, possibly before and after the workout. 40, 51, etc.. If you also mix in cardio exercise---- not necessarily as part of your weight workouts either---like on your off days, or later in the day----you should be more than fine regarding calories and weight.
It's the combination of all those things that gives you what you want without the negatives you don't want. Good diet, protein, cardio.....you can tailor that to add weight, lose weight, add muscle, add stamina, etc.......most people just go heavy in one area and expect it all. Good luck bro.
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| 8 | angryChair
ID: 459171622
Fri, Jul 27, 2007, 11:54
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phiboy--I might look into it. I need to lose roughly 10 lbs.
Thanks.
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| 9 | Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Fri, Jul 27, 2007, 13:04
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Distinguished Senator-
Well, the problem is obvious, it's your workout. According to your post, you do dumbell presses four times a week. Way too much.
I worked out in high school and college, but it wasn't until later that I actually learned what to do and how to do it properly. Similarly, I "stretched" as a young adult but it wasn't until I was in my 30's that I understood how to stretch, how to push the body past its boundaries. Yoga opened my eyes.
Everything I've read about building muscle insists upon working out one, maybe two bodyparts on a given day and resting that part for 5-7 days afterwards. Not even steroid addled freaks bench press four times a week.
If you have been following the regiment you posted for a while, I have a feeling that your intensity may not be adequate. At all the various gyms I've been to, 80% of the people working out are not doing it correctly. The most important aspect of an exercise is proper form. This takes a ton of discipline and knowledge. For example, most guys cheat horribly when they do curls. I recommend dropping the weight you have been doing, isolate the bicep, perform the motion slower, don't cheat, focus on the negative, keep it activated during the entire set, and go to failure. In order to properly perform even the easiest exercise properly, you need to have the knowledge of what is the muscle's range of motion, how to attack it from different angles via different exercises, in short, you have to read a lot.
When you isolate and use strict form, you are not endangering yourself by pushing hard. I generally go to failure on most of my sets, occasionally using a spot to go past failure with some help. I also like to do supersets: Go to failure, then immediately drop 40-50% of the weight and perform another 8 or so reps or to failure. A key to this regiment is increasing the intensity by increasing the weight. Keep track of your exercises and increase the weight you are using incrementally. I don't like dips because you are not increasing the weight, unless you are using a belt with a chain and adding weight, but even then it's not recommended because it strains your shoulder ligaments.
This intensity makes you sore. There is no way anyone should do this to a muscle group four times in one week. Lots of people split up their workout like this:
Day 1: Chest
Day 2: Arms
Day 4: Back
Day 6: Shoulders/Shruggs
Day 7: Legs or basketball
I, too, pass on legs because my knee swells up. I run often and don't need to do leg lifting, I just focus on the upper body.
I firmly believe that the machine lateral raises are crap, you should stick to dumbells. If you belong to a decent gym, they should have numerous machines to attack your back. Change up your routine regularly, the only way to learn how to do that effectively is to read. For example, occasionally do barbell clean and jerks in place of seated military press.
I read Muscle Media magazine in the late 90's until I couldn't stand the crap that it had become. Find a source you trust and read all that you can. Learn about how the amount of time in between sets is very important depending upon your goals.
Regarding your diet, where are your vegetables and fruit? Bananas alone surely isn't enough. No meat other than canned tuna? Is this fun? Sounds miserable, personally. I guess you are getting plenty of protein, but I really believe you need more leafy green goodness.
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| 10 | philflyboy
ID: 520591215
Fri, Jul 27, 2007, 15:18
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angrychair email me and I will send you some info.
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| 11 | Senator Urine
ID: 141130310
Sun, Jul 29, 2007, 17:38
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Thanks for the advice, I appreciate it. Maybe giving each part some more rest would help out. For some reason I never feel sore no matter how hard I push myself, so I always convince myself two days later that I have to workout that part again. Maybe I'll take my Friday and Saturday workouts and replace my Monday and Wednesday ones with those too. That way Monday and Friday are entirely push, and Wednesday and Saturday are entirely pull. Does this sound good?
I completely agree with you on the vegetables and fruit. I'll start buying some this week, I just haven't been doing it lately because I'm cheap. You can get a pound of apples for 1.99 and almost 3 lbs of oatmeal for the same price, not to mention with oatmeal there's 30 servings in that. I'll just suck it up I guess.
For quick carbs after my workout I've been doing the banana, but one of my friends said that's not fast enough. I was always under the impression though that bananas, pineapple, and grapes are fast burning while other kinds of fruit are slow. He thinks I should move the banana to before I workout, and when I'm done put 20 g of dextrose and 20 g of maltodextrin in with my whey. It just would feel weird eating something with no nutritional value really, though a lot of people swear by this and say it's great for replenishing energy.
And yeah, I want to learn how to clean and jerk, I need to start really looking into that. I don't have anyone to show me unfortunately. I agree with you on the machine laterals, I just switched to those temporarily from dumbbell ones just to ease up on my elbow. For some reason my left elbow is feeling like it's turning into mush.
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| 12 | Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Sun, Jul 29, 2007, 18:58
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For some reason I never feel sore no matter how hard I push myself, so I always convince myself two days later that I have to workout that part again.
Then you've got to increase the intensity. Attack those weights like a mad dog. Blast your muscles with 10 to 12 sets per part. You will be sore.
And remember, you don't build the muscle at the gym, it grows while it rests, especially while you sleep.
You sound like an ectomorph, naturally lean, difficult to gain muscle. Do some internet research to get advice from other ectomorphs. Good luck.
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| 13 | angryChair
ID: 459171622
Sun, Jul 29, 2007, 19:33
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phiboy- I emailed you a couple of days ago---did you get it?
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| 14 | philflyboy
ID: 111012139
Sun, Jul 29, 2007, 23:28
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I was away for the weekend and just got home. I will forward you the info tomorrow.
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| 15 | Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Fri, Aug 24, 2007, 14:34
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So Senator, it's been almost a month, have you made any changes and seen any results?
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| 16 | Senator Urine
ID: 141130310
Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 22:10
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Whoops, I missed the new post in the thread.
I did end up making some changes. The first thing I did was reduce my benching as you suggested, resulting in an entirely "pushing" workout on Mondays and Fridays and an entirely "pulling" workout on Wednesdays and Saturdays.
I also discovered my gym has a dip belt, so I was able to start doing weighted dips and weighted pullups.
Also I started taking the Trader Joe's multivitamin and their fish oil capsules too.
I made all three of these changes at the same time (and started eating slightly more on my off days), and I seem to be hovering around 146 pounds now instead of 143. Who knows if it's muscle or fat though. I thought it was mostly fat but we had a wellness screening at work yesterday and they did one of those hand held body fat tester things and I came in at 7.3%. Seemed kind of strange so they did it again, and it came out the same.
The other day I tried doing the barbell bench to see if I was still having trouble with it now that I put on some weight and was getting more rest, and it was the same situation. I have no idea what happened there.
They also told me though that my HDL cholesterol, blood sugar, and blood pressure were too low. The nurse said my results when put together seemed to indicate I was putting my body into starvation mode, and she looked at me as if I was lying when I told her I eat 3200 calories a day. She said that to raise the HDL I should "start cutting out bad fats and eating things like natural peanut butter and cashews, and start supplementing with fish oil." So basically, "do exactly what you're doing." So I have no clue what's going on.
About two weeks ago I decided to completely switch up the routine, and do a thing where instead of the usual 3 sets of however many reps, do 5 reps, rest for 10 seconds, 4 reps, rest for 10 seconds...down to 1 rep. Three sets of that for each exercise.
Push Workout:
Dumbbell Bench
Seated Dumbbell Military
Incline Dumbbell Bench
Lateral Dumbbell Raise
Seated Cable Fly
Seated Machine Military
Dips
Pull Workout:
Pullups
Bar Row for back (close grip, palms facing each other)
Shrugs
Machine Row
Bar Row for rear delts (wide grip, palms facing me) - originally I was doing bent over raises for rear delts but I kept tweaking something in my lower back
Seated Barbell Curls
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| 17 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Tue, Sep 04, 2007, 19:07
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I sincerely doubt that a multi or fish oil will help your workouts at all. DOn't take creatine. You will see a difference but very hard on kidneys and not worth it.
What are your goals? Weight gain (bulk), definition, combination?
First, cut down on your sweets and sugars and simple carbohydrates. Up your protein intake, but keep a balanced diet. If you want to gain weight, you obviously have to put a lot more calories in your body. If not, your body will search for protein and actually start feeding on your own muscles for it.
Allow yourself rest days. Days when you do no lifting at all. Make sure you do cardio. Studies have shown that weight lifters actually back on more lean muscle mass than those who don't do any cardio at all.
When lifting, do supersets--esp. if you don't have much time and need a quick workout. My favorite is Push and Pulls or supplemental movements. If you're going for size, never lift the same muscle group on back to back unless it is a simple light lift (some are now encouraging a light lift on your otherwise off day for that muscle group). If you want some size and definition, there are several ways to go about it. One of the programs I taught was to basically work different parts of the entire body with the major parts every other day--though you would hit part of that muscle the next day--it's complicated if you're not into working out I suppose. It's a six day rotation program but I generally only worked out 4-5 days when I was in serious training for something. It can be brutal but using lighter weights helped.
The diet is critical. I loaded up on carbs in the morning and cut back in the afternoon and cut almost all the way out at night. Snack healthy and drank at least 3 protein shakes a day. Drank a LOT of water and milk. Studies show calcium will actually help reduce that spare tire in men. It's always better to get the vitamins out of food and simply use supplements as a last resort. Eat green leafy veggies. But more importantly, allow yourself one day per seek to splurge. Studies show that your body will actually do better when that happens and pschologically it is easier to stay on the strict regimen if you allow yourself that day to eat a little unhealthy or against the grain. Your body will try and keep homeostasis and when you lose weight, it will try and fight you. DRINK WATER!!! Can't say that enough. As much as you workout, you will need to keepyourslef hydrated and your body will continue to burn fat well after your workouts are over.
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| 18 | Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Tue, Sep 04, 2007, 19:28
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What makes you claim that creatine is hard on the kidneys? I've been taking it for 12 years and all four of my kidneys are singing happy tunes!
I don't think the Senator needs to use light weights. The guy is extremely lean and has a damned time putting on muscle even with massive caloric intake. It's time to go HEAVY!
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| 19 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Tue, Sep 04, 2007, 20:03
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A workout partner of mine went on creatine for 3 months and reported having to urinate almost constantly and several times in the middle of the night. When he went to the doctor, he was told to get off creatine immediately as it was hard on the kidneys. But he was massive. I couldn't keep up with him.
To pack on weight, you need to pack on the calories. Pretty simple. I would work out no more than 3 times per week (same muscle group)with at least 1 to 2 days off between and have longer rest times between lifts. Do no more than 6 reps per set. Eat at least 6 times per day and drink double protein shakes. Studies show that the benefit of weigh training start to tail off after an hour of beginning so I would probably encourage splits of uppder body one one day then lower body and cardio the next day. To gain weight you need to work the largest muscle groups but don't forget the smaller muscle groups or you could develop tendonitis (esp shoulder and more specifically rotator cuff) as the small muscles won't be able to keep up, If you're benching heavy weights this is critical as benching is an unnatureal movement for the body adn puts undue stress on the shoulders and rotator cuff. Be smart and take your time. Rome wasn't built in a day.
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| 22 | Seattle Zen
ID: 10732616
Wed, Jan 19, 2011, 19:46
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Update time, Senator Urine!
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