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Subject: Value of a trade... Posted by: torontotoe - [1035412] Thu, Jan 04, 13:31 I`m a newbie to the Small World universe and have now seen there is an intricate balance between SW dollars and SWP`s. The balance is really a judgement with someone`s personal preference. However, for all those experienced Small World players out there, what is the value of a trade in terms of points? Can we say that a trade could be translated to about 100 points considering that if you traded a top line player who has two days off for another top liner with 2 on days, that should get you at the top end 100 points. That, of course, is not counting the trade back if that was necessary.... | ||||||
| 1 | Harkon-thumb ID: 4453220 Thu, Jan 04, 13:50 |
First Finally a new guy with a great moniker ! Welcome Torontoe, how is your family doing the Phoe-necks, the Buffa-losers, the Otta-walks and the Pinky Pimps (aka New York Rangers) ? The value of a trade can not be measured by a thumb rule (this was a must for me). It depends on your daily changing mental sanity. Will say, It's up to you, one day it's not worth a potential 100 points and the next you swap a good guy with 2 games for the chance of a comeback center that has not played in thousand years and will not for the next week. Just use your common sense. Well if you really had a good portion of that, it's now gone as you posted here and the virus is already in your blood circuit. Poor Boy now you have to spent your time with us ! | |||||
| 2 | torontotoe ID: 1035412 Thu, Jan 04, 14:14 |
Thanks for the welcome. I see that your name has to do with a body part also. Anyhoo, I think that success in this game depends on the smart use of your trades. For example with unlimited trading most of us would have a lot more points whereas with only 1 trade/week we would have to be a lot shrewder (is that a word). Of course trade according to schedule strenght, hot and cold streaks, and injuries but there must be a strategy to save say 1 trade per week for use during the later part of the season or save 2 if possible. What I`m asking is is it necessary to use all 5 trades a week to keep up with the Jones`? Maybe its best to hold at least 1 trade till Monday to avoid injury downtime. (I`m just thinking as I type here) Thoughts please..... | |||||
| 3 | philfly-back ID: 2844635 Thu, Jan 04, 14:18 | holding a trade or 2 back is a great idea if you are able to. That would allow for trading of better players later on in the year when your Roster Value is higher. It makes more sense to trade in and out or Jagr's and Turgeons then it does to trade in and out of cheap defensemen. | |||||
| 4 | torontotoe ID: 1035412 Thu, Jan 04, 14:25 | That sounds reasonable. I just gotta avoid the happy trigger finger. | |||||
| 5 | philfly-back ID: 2844635 Thu, Jan 04, 14:27 | that is a problem that we all have to avoid. Its like walking around with a $200 in your pocket. You just need to spend it!!!!! | |||||
| 6 | costanza ID: 5032414 Thu, Jan 04, 14:32 |
Hi my name is George, and I'm a recovering trade-a-holic. I used to get my fix of five trades every Monday, and blow 3 or 4 of them by Thursday. My WWR was mediocre, and I wasn't making much money. Well, in late Nov/early Dec. I made a decision. No more chasing mini-money trains like John Madden and Lubomir Visnovsky. I was only going to make trades when one of my players hit a really bad patch of schedule, or if a "sure-thing" came up. I've been amazed at the results. After spending the first two months of the year bouncing around the bottom-half of the Gurupie leader list, watching my WWR fluctuate between a 4- and 5-digit number, I'm now comfortably in the 3-digit range, sitting with the unheard-of total of 16 trades. So, yes, I think you can keep up with the Jones' without using 5 trades/week. When you look at the results of most trades, as often as not, the better move would've been to hold it. (There was one week in Dec. where I made only one trade... picked up a guy who scored negative points in three straight games, before going on the injured list). Oh, and even if you don't want to accumulate trades, I think you absolutely have to keep at least one, preferably two trades until at least Sunday... fewer trades are made Sun/Mon, so any selling at all of one player can kill his value. | |||||
| 7 | Harkon-thumb ID: 4453220 Thu, Jan 04, 14:47 |
well said George now known as CONSTANZA. And Trades are just for entertaining people ! look at message 70 | |||||
| 8 | walk ID: 481133813 Thu, Jan 04, 14:52 |
Welcome torontotoe. I am sorry your first reply had to come from that cicular talking Harkon-thumb (very clever, Hark). You see, he is actually correct, and a superior player at that, but he is quite sore that he did not pick up Lemieux like everyone else and then miss out on his SWP AND his DOLLARS. A major crime of travesty. You ask the age old question, grasshopper ("the value of a trade"). I posted this same question two years ago on the baseball boards. It comes around each season, and is but the essence of this river of smellworld. Sometimes the question is not the value of a trade in SWP, but the value of a trade in dollars. It can go either way. I believe that big-digit-tom-thumb man had it right in that the value of a trade might have both long-term and short-term measures. In the long-run, one oftens hopes that a trade might pan out for several weeks of increased SWP. Folks here are correct that you can indeed keep up with the Jones's by not exhausting all of your 5 trades each week, but alas, like constanza, I, too often shoot my load and spend all of my trades. I am a trade-a-holic. It is pathetic. The best managers, those like Harp-thumb, and the Guru himself (see hoops and baseball) and KB8ers and my sage dumbass friend WaB use their trades "wisely." While this wisdom term is vague, it more specifically translates to using trades "strategically." That is, when they truly will capitalize on increased gains (a combination of SWP and dollars). It is important not to trade away players with good schedules who are in a mini-slump, and also wise not swap around goalies hastily. Chasing after daily money making players, especially with daily re-pricing is not wise either. Even if you refrain from all of that, it's still easy to expend all of your trades, and if you are inclined to do so, then you should be zen and do it. But, to play it safe, as it's mentioned above, save at least ONE trade for injuries before you go to zero prior to the subsequent allowance. While I do not personally practice what I preach, my observations of the superior managers out there indicates that they have 3-10 trades in the bank all of the time. good luck, toe-man, - walk | |||||
| 9 | walk ID: 481133813 Thu, Jan 04, 14:56 |
constant-stanza! 16 trades in the bank! I must say, I have to learn your newfound discipline. I still have 2 in the hole on both of my teams and am thinking that I am having a "restrained week." I am not worthy of your wisdom. Harko-thumb: dumbass walk reporting. - walk | |||||
| 10 | Hark-suck-thumb ID: 4453220 Thu, Jan 04, 15:06 |
who said I'm not having the French Super Slow-Mo-rio (i hope you know what a slo-mo is) ? Ever Heard of not putting all eggs into one Basket ? | |||||
| 11 | torontotoe ID: 1035412 Thu, Jan 04, 15:07 |
Save trades eh?? So easy to say but hard to do. Few items to ponder. I like the idea not to trade a player with a favorable schedule but a mini-slump. I recently dumped Damphousse and Hogland. I also am intrigues about our fellow ex-premature small world trader and his success with his controlling his load. I guess he just thinks of other things to take his mind off of trading like hold Paval on Wednesday with no trades for 5 days. ouch.... | |||||
| 12 | Team AA ID: 53947612 Thu, Jan 04, 15:08 | I made the mistake of not using any trades last week and it will probably take more than 5 trades to get back on track. *IF* you can, you should save 1-2 trades a week. At least save them for the end of the week. But we know how hard that is. They only way I can build a resurve is to go cold turkey. most of the time this happens when I'm out of town and can't check my team for a few days. And I always seem to use those trades when I get back and come up with my new spur of the moment plan to take over the small-World. Yes I have a problem. | |||||
| 13 | walk ID: 481133813 Thu, Jan 04, 15:16 |
Oh, sorry Hark. I noticed none of those penguins were not on your Hark Hitters team, but you must have hopped on the Pittsburgh ferry on your Efstereareasdfsdf team. Aha! P.S. Holik is in the doghouse in NJ; benched for the 3rd period last game. - walk | |||||
| 14 | ¤ Mario LeMoose ¤ ID: 30017415 Thu, Jan 04, 15:17 | Heart-konnon! ... eggs for you, "biscuits" for us. What a difference an omelet makes. | |||||
| 15 | torontotoe ID: 1035412 Thu, Jan 04, 15:20 | i must say that for a first thread and now with the Moose making roll call, i must call my first day a success.... | |||||
| 16 | SteveO ID: 44833219 Thu, Jan 04, 15:37 | If you are Torontotoe, then I am Edmontontonsils or Edmontontoenail. Or Headmontontoenail. Ack! too much coffee. My advice ... follow the money trail. Welcome to the boards. | |||||
| 17 | torontotoe ID: 1035412 Thu, Jan 04, 15:40 | follow the money trail till what date though...you follow money to the end and you will leave a valuable estate to your offspring that is far down in the points ranking...what is the date to say okay money has either been made or not made by now...show me the points.....i`m thinking maybe the NHL trade deadline in mid February | |||||
| 18 | costanza ID: 46051415 Thu, Jan 04, 15:51 |
It's been kinda tough resisting the urge to trade-em-all. Thinking a little more about this, it's more likely that my team doing well is the reason I'm not making trades, rather than the other way around. Generally speaking, though, I've tried to have a few "long-term holds". Jagr's been on my team all year, Forsberg was around for a long time, Lalime's been aboard since returning from injury in early Nov (I've weathered two price drops... it looks like his second slide is now over). In fact, since picking up Belfour on Nov. 11, I've used a total of two trades on goalies (to Brodeur, then Kolzig)... I think a big part, though, was the resolve not to make money trades. I made an exception for Havlat, and I hated doing it, "knowing" he wouldn't score many points. Also, I figured that moving among mediocre defenceman was (generally speaking) wasting trades, so stuck with guys like Rafalski and Tverdosky longer than I would've otherwise. I didn't like their production, nor their value, but didn't see any solid, affordable alternatives (I went Leetch->Gonchar with my third slot), and didn't (until this week) need to move them to free up cash, so I just held them. Another thing... I've been heavily into roster differentiation, so that if guys like Samsonov or Mara slump, I don't have to worry about them losing much value. As for what the trades can be saved for, the NHL's schedule is quirky enough, that "goalie rotation" can be a goldmine. | |||||
| 19 | costanza ID: 1503416 Thu, Jan 04, 16:03 |
Ah, the "when do you stop caring about money?" question! For me, last year, it was Christmas. Of course, I also had > $85M in RV at the time, and that was still well off the Gurupie average. The reason I made the decision at that time (with Gurupie help, of course) was that I figured I then had a high enough RV that not being able to afford a top player was rarely a problem. Sure, I might not be able to spend $9M on Joseph, but I could have a $6M Richter or Vernon. With reduced RVs this year, I'm thinking that if I can get close to $80M by the end of the month, that'll be the cutoff. $6.5M/player is a pretty good amount, especially since D-men don't seem to get far over that price. One thing to remember, though, is that once everybody else starts trading for points, we'll be able to make money without even trying. (My RV went up $20M after Christmas). But, this is just my second Smallworld year, I'd be quite interested to hear what the vets have to say on the matter. (One thing I noticed, looking at last year's data... Jagr was over $14M this time last year) | |||||
| 20 | jetro ID: 56029222 Thu, Jan 04, 16:12 | TT, Just go with your gut. Take some chances once in a while. You have to roll the dice to get paid. | |||||
| 21 | walk ID: 481133813 Thu, Jan 04, 16:18 |
3rd year vet here, torontoetorontotoe. Roster values are clearly down this year; costanza is right on that one. I think with daily re-pricing, the entire strategy is different this year, and this is "pays" to play the entire season for points, with the supposition that money will follow (a la constanza's reference to post-xmas last year). This year is a whole new animal, with daily re-pricing. Also, in hockey, I believe more so than in baseball, there are more cheaper guys who can perform on par with the higher-priced studs. Guys like Roenick, Sakic, Sundin, etc, will have slumps that last 2-4 weeks, and some goober like Gomez will sneak in and be the hottest center in the league. It happens more often than in baseball where more often the higher priced players totally outperform the cheaper dudes. I think with Lemieux coming back, and assuming he and Jagr continue to excel, that more money will be needed to be elite this year. Everyone will now need funds to have Lemieux and Jagr, but the richest will also have Sakic, Turgeon, MacInnis, etc. Those guys are like the high-priced Manny Ramirez/A-Rod studs of hockey. Jagr was $14MM last year, and Bure around $11MM because they were heads and tails above the rest. Jagr started out really high, I recall, and Bure did not. This year, Jagr's production has curtailed his price, but with Lemieux back, I can see it climbing to maybe $12.5MM before it's over. Who knows, maybe $13MM -- new teams are formed, too. It is very helpful to have extra trades at the end of the season to swap in and out of goalies each day, to kinda max out points at the end. Using up too many trades exclusively for dollar gains now will "cost" you make-up points down the stretch. I had only 3 extra trades to make these swaps last year, but others had 6-10. I have a $71.5MM franchise value on the richer of my two teams. I stopped buying guys with the aim of making money, but occassionally will still sell a guy to avoid losing money. Ultimately, though, all of these trades are primarily aimed at buying guys cause I think they will make me POINTS and selling guys cause I think they will not make as much points. The money is correlated. I think, based on the posts I have seen from you torontotoe, you clearly are "with it." - walk | |||||
| 22 | torontotoe ID: 1035412 Thu, Jan 04, 16:26 | my problem being a small world virgin is that I didn`t realize the value of bucks until just recently and have a roster value of only $63 mil so I have to make a decision if that is enough to sustain me the rest of the way, should I go for the moolah till the trade deadline than points, or mix and match the two till I go crazy and blow trades??? | |||||
| 23 | StLCards ID: 2504849 Thu, Jan 04, 16:27 |
While I am admittedly new at this and by no means a top manager, it seems to me that a trade in hockey should be worth more than a trade in baseball for the stretch run. In baseball a player may have 2 days off in a month and maybe rest a game, so he plays 27 games. In hockey a player probably plays about 14 games. The manager who is competitive in hockey and with a lot of trades can gain many starting players over the competition. Of course, if you don't trade players with bad schedules through the season then you lose out on those games and thus no real advantage. In my mind the key is to hold players with good schedules, if they slump move out of them when their schedule weakens and move into players with better upcoming schedules. And of course move out of injured players. Another tradeoff is using the trade simply for money. A trade into Mario (which I failed to do) should be a no brainer given his price swing. One trade for like a million extra dollars! That extra million could be the difference later in having all top players or not. Chasing 100k here and there using trades probably is an expensive use of trades unless that player produces points as well. The big question I have is how do you identify a money train? Seems like any player that has a big night instantly moves to the money board. In reality the time to have him is before his big night. He may not have another one for a few weeks and by then his money is going down. I think a trade is worth approximately the average pts/game of the player you are getting multiplied by the number of games he will play more than who you traded out of. With that reasoning I would say that torontotoe (is that another name for frostbite?) would be about right with the initial post that 2 games would be on the high end = to about 100pts. | |||||
| 24 | SteveO ID: 44833219 Thu, Jan 04, 17:07 | Tough question: when is enough money? This is just my two cents as I have not the track record of some of these gurupies I hold in very high esteem, but what I do is blow two trades on Monday. Two on Monday. There are usually some obvious switches to be made. Who had a hatrick or a shutout? Who got the weekly concussion or a poke in the eye? There will be a buzz, neg or pos about somebody on the boards. Then I try to hang on until Wednesday to see if one of my blokes is showing on the negative price movers over and over. If so, bang he's gone. Someone had a thread about how the first trades are strategic and for schedule. By Thursday, it seems, everyone is chasing money/minimizing losses. If you have a trade by Saturday you feel a real sense of accomplishment. You know you are a gurupie of tremendous will power then. Won't matter what your WWR, you have a trade in your pocket so you are insured. Of course, I've never been there. But I've heard about that kind of nirvana and I hope to attain it one day. Aaaah, the promised land. As of today I have two trades left and I think I might make it. I think I can, I think I can... So take two trades on Monday. Then ween yourself off the habit gradually for the remainder of the week. | |||||
| 25 | SteveO ID: 44833219 Thu, Jan 04, 17:11 | I didn't even answer the question!!! Here it is: I've got 75 million now and I'm shifting my emphasis to points as a 75/25 factor now. About half my guys are locks for extended periods of time now. | |||||
| 26 | torontotoe ID: 1035412 Thu, Jan 04, 17:16 | nirvana....you have me rolling but it is true if I make it to Friday with a trade remaining I feel like buying a lotto ticket because luck must be on my side...i think the best stretegy is to get a second or third team that you don`t care about and just trade on those when you get the urge... man we are trade junkies...that will be my name next year for sure.... | |||||
| 27 | The Left Wings ID: 2111401223 Thu, Jan 04, 17:27 |
A sophomore here, and a proud rookie of the year candidate from last year (finished tied-50th in the first season). =) I think the game really changed this year from last year by going from weekly price updates to daily ones. Last year was quite easy, as you can make money simply by looking at who did well the past week, and so, to do well last year, all you have to do is to spend some time to do some research, and you'll make tons of money. Then at some point, which is to your feeling, you start researching for each player's schedule. What I did last year was looking at the schedule and made up a spreadsheet that tells me the weekly schedules for each team and I bought the players accordingly. This year, with daily repricing, it takes WAY more time to determine when to sell a player. Luckily, I had the training in SW Hoops last season (with weekday repricing, and I did poorly in that) and SW Baseball this summer (daily repricing, and I did better, but still bad). I always try to save 2 trades until Sunday. If I really can't do that, then at least save 1. Although burning all your trades right away would save me from scratching my head every night, I'm sure my roster value would suffer. My experience is that the lemmings knows better sometimes. Early in the season, I'd blindly go with the money trains. There were these couple of weeks when I gained more than $500k daily. That would prove to be useful about now. A month ago, I started reducing my money train roster spots and went for schedule, and hey guess what happened, the lemmings finally started looking at the schedule too, and so although I didn't gain as much daily, my RV is still going up and my WWR also went from around 2300 to around 600, which was ahead of where I was last season. I remembered that I was hovering around 200 for a month or so after the all-star break last season, so I think I still have time. But that couple of bad weeks really really hurt me. There weren't many of those last week. I also think that if you want to do well, you gotta spend lots of time on this. Check their schedules, performances lately and reading hockey articles help a lot. Oh yeah, does "wings" count as a body part? You know, those two bone flippers behind our shoulders could very well been wings millions of years ago... | |||||
| 28 | The Left Wings ID: 2111401223 Thu, Jan 04, 17:37 |
LOL Steveo you reminded me. I was scrolling down the thread and started getting confused that I forgot about the initial question... At the beginning of the season, I remember when we were talking about Jagr and before his slump. I said that I would get him once my roster hits around $70M. So I got him when I reached that. What I think is "enough" money is that I can have a reasonably good roster (one that I like) that is competitive with the highest priced player on it. Last year, with Jagr priced at $14M and P.Bure at $12M, it took me about $80-85M until I'm satisfied with the roster. This year, however, with way fewer high-priced players (no Lindros, Leclair, Kariya or Selanne at $10M around) performing, I'd say $70-75M is quite enough. However, I'm still not satisfied with my team right now cuz I had JP Dumont around until lately. So I'm still gonna make a few money trades before shifting to full thrusters, hopefully within the next month. | |||||
| 29 | Jay-P ID: 299331420 Thu, Jan 04, 18:07 |
Nice thread, torontotoe! Hi, my name is J.P. and I am a tradeaholic, and I will probably always be one, no matter how much I try not to. I never have a trade left over on the weekend it seems, but so far, it isn't really destroying me as no one has been injured that was on my roster.....yet. Your thread also came at the perfect time for me too, as I once again blew my last trade on moving from Ferraro into Hrdina, even though it cost me a game, because I wouldn't have been able to afford the move on the 6th, to get Ferraro's extra game. I am going to reform into being more conservative, or at least I hope I can. I am going to hold the Jagr-Lemieux-Hrdina line until the end of the season, barring a prolonged slump or injury. Actually, I may move Hrdina sooner though, because I think that throwing all your eggs in one basket is too risky. Last year, if anyone remembers, it was the Nolan-Friesen-Damphousse line that generated the huge points early on in the season, but when the line slumped, you were nailed with 1/4 of your team getting 0's or negatives daily, and if their schedule's went bad, you were triple in trouble. My new plan which will be implemented with next week's trades (cross my fingers) is to make just 3-5 trades between now and the all-star break. Bondra and Gonchar are gone on the 10th due to their 1 in 7 stretch and Hejduk and Foote are gone on the 21st due to their 4 or 5 days off. 1 trade just in case I need to downgrade at a position to make my trades. I may hold Foote, because I've realized that although it's the defence that wins the games, the offence gets the glory for a reason, it's cause they get those precious SWP and Foote-any defenceman may not really be worth it. That'll give me 18 trades to play with after the all-star break, and maybe I can blast my way into the top 100 and stay there for more than 48 hours like this weekend's stay was. The value of a trade all depends on what position it is your trading. For Defence, your looking at maybe 30-50 SWP if you gain 2 games, it seems, because there are so few quality defenceman that can score. I agree with the 100 SWP for the centers and wings. I think trades are best used in the goalie slot, because if you can gain a couple games that could be upwards of 150 SWP gained there. So, basically, find a trio of defenceman that are consistant, and stick with them! When your roster value increases, then slowly increase the amount of money you pour into the defenceman and then hold them again. Try to only make trades with your forwards and goalies, to max out points now, and only if your players run into cold stretches and have bad schedules, and of course if they're injured. The best bet is to resist the urge of the itchy trading finger unless a trade is absolutely necessary. Now, how much money is enough? I know how it feels to be squandering trades on moneymakers, because that's basically what I've done this season, except for a 2-week stretch a couple weeks ago, which ironically, was the worst 2 weeks I've had all season. It seems that chasing the money makers leads to points, cause as soon as I went back to going for money, I had a monster week that saw me finally crack the top 100 for the first time in any SW game, ever. This year, the RV's are much lower than last year, because my 80 million RV at this time back then was peanuts compared to the others, whereas right now, with my 80 million RV this season, it ranks right up there at the top. I think the RV that should be enough to be a team of all-stars would be between 90-100 million. I figure by the all-star break, I could be at 85-90 million and then I go into the exclusive trading for points and ignoring the price movers completely. This year, the middle-tier players are playing above their heads, and that's why a mega-load of money isn't really that important. With Evgeni Nabokov (I can't believe I've held him on my team since October!) at goal, and others such as Lalime and Cechmanek in net, you could put 10-15 million in goal, and be able to compete with a duo of CuJo/Brodeur. On defence, Macinnis, Leetch or Foote and a cheapie, ties another 10-15 dollars up there and it leaves you with 40-50 million or more, depending on your roster value to spend on 7 forwards. Even if you hold Jagr and Lemieux, there are many Hejduk's, Hossa's, Hrdina's, Tanguay's, Bondra's, Allison's, Guerin's, and with Fleury plummetting, he'll be closer to 7 million when I plan to pick him up on the 13th. RV isn't really that important this year. But, I can see that holding a team of: Hrdina Turgeon Lemieux = 23 million Jagr Fleury 2 of the middle-tier 6 million dollar wingers = 30 million Macinnis Leetch Cheap D = 13 million Nabokov Lalime/Cechmanek = 10-13 million Total cost is 75-80 million, and that's what I envision my team looking like in a week or so. | |||||
| 30 | puckprophet ID: 1810352017 Thu, Jan 04, 18:29 | i agree jay , nuggets of knowledge all over this thread. | |||||
| 31 | Jay-P ID: 299331420 Thu, Jan 04, 23:16 |
"I never have a trade left over on the weekend it seems, but so far, it isn't really destroying me as no one has been injured that was on my roster.....yet." Stupid poetic justice! Foote goes down just hours after that comment! | |||||
| 32 | torontotoe ID: 1035412 Fri, Jan 05, 11:42 | thanks to all for their contributions and making my first foyer into rotoguru a success...cudos to all who contributed...i just wish i had some trades left so that I can NOT trade them and show how my resolved has changed... oh well, i never thought i would say this but, Thank God for Mondays... | |||||
| 33 | SteveO ID: 44833219 Fri, Jan 05, 12:14 | Foote goes down on the TorontoToe thread. Wow, what are the odds? | |||||
| 34 | Dallassbum ID: 4453220 Fri, Jan 05, 12:35 |
the BIG(swollen)FOOTe is the Avs mascott ! So odds are even. | |||||
| 35 | rugg ID: 559271312 Fri, Jan 05, 13:31 | Hi J.P. Do you need a sponser? | |||||
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Post a reply to this message: (But first, how about checking out this sponsor?) | |||||||