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Subject: the ethics of roto trading
Posted by: rockafellerskank
- Leader [27652109] Sun, Jan 25, 2004, 11:37
I know we've tossed around ideas about whether certain trades should be veto'd or not, but I'd like to get a few opinions on a slightly different topic. Let's disregard whether a trade should be veto'd or not by the league and/or commissioner.
What I'm interested is DO YOU ACCEPT A LESS THAN FAIR OFFER?
The example I'm going to propose should (probably) be veto'd, but I want to know if it came your way, would you accept it? Are you afraid other will view you as (potentially) collusive?
Scenario:
You are in 2nd place. The 11th place team (out of 12) offer you -- out of the blue-- Iverson for Keith Bogans. The only rationale that comes with the offer is "I'm not a big Iverson fan because of his attitude"
You are in a tight battle for 1st place with points and steals being your most oppotune category to make up ground.
This in NOT a public league, but rather a league where you knwo all of the guys and have played for years together.
It should be pretty obvious to any commissioner that this sould get shot down, but I'll bet (truthfully) a lot of owners will say "hey, it was offered to me, why not?"
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| 1 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 41831612
Sun, Jan 25, 2004, 11:43
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As usual, my answer is that it depends on the league. Some leagues are cuthroat, and deals like that can be accepted as is. Many are not like that at all.
In the type pf league you describe, no, I would not accept it, and if interested in obtaining Iverson, I'd counter with something more realistically in the ballpark of fair. That deal is just too far off to stomach, IMHO.
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| 2 | Tree
ID: 18035246
Sun, Jan 25, 2004, 11:44
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definitely presents an interesting scenario - i'm of the belief that just about every trade made in a non-public league should go through.
if i think it's unfair, i'll definitely grumble about it, but the odds are i won't go as far as vetoing it.
your example is an exception to my unwillingness to veto.
collusion is reason why a trade should be vetoed. something that is bad for the league is another reason. i've cited it before, and i'll invoke his name again - Charlie O of the early 70s A's was guilty of this, and had some player movements vetoed.
and that's why a trade like this should be shot down by the commish, vetoed by the league or not.
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| 3 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 41831612
Sun, Jan 25, 2004, 11:48
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Treester, his main question though was "DO YOU ACCEPT A LESS THAN FAIR OFFER?"
Put yourself on the receiving end.
BTW, this has happened to me before, and I'm sure to many people that have played the game more than a few days. ;)
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| 4 | Tree
ID: 18035246
Sun, Jan 25, 2004, 11:56
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to answer the question simply "do i accept a less-than-fair" offer, it's all relative...
in the example above, no.
but less-than-fair can be in the beholder. Tim Duncan for Jason Williams is a less-than-fair offer, but if i've pretty much solidified my position in points, rebounds, and blocks, but with just a few more assists can leap me up a few more positions, i'd do something like that...
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| 5 | GolfFreak
Sustainer
ID: 1730209
Sun, Jan 25, 2004, 12:41
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For the good faith of the League. You CANT let this go. It your duty as Commish to overlook the righteousness of your fellow managers. How would you feel working hard all year then this thing happens. Would be a big injustice. Could cause some animosity towards the 2 mangers involved and you as commish. Just put yourself in 3rd place. How would you feel if this happened?
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| 6 | MyLakers
ID: 44851299
Sun, Jan 25, 2004, 12:56
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Also, could it be (because it seems you all know each other) that the number 11 guy would much rather you won, since he cannot? As to "do you accept the less than fair trade" I would ask do you go ahead and subvert your own integrity to win a fantasy football game. I will not.
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| 7 | rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 27652109
Sun, Jan 25, 2004, 13:02
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GolfFreak - The question is NOT what the commissioner should do, the question is what would YOU do as a player who received such an offer? Accept ? Counter? Reject? Comment on the message boards? Keep it private?
MyLakers - Since this my moral scenario, let's say YOU don't know any more about #11s motivation other than he 'dislikes" Ives.
Tree I know, the word 'ethics' threw you off the path at first! J/K. :)
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| 8 | GolfFreak
Sustainer
ID: 1730209
Sun, Jan 25, 2004, 14:00
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:0 Ok! How about this. ;)
For the good faith of the League. I CANT let this go. Its my duty as fair,honorable,trustworthy fellow manager to overlook the righteousness of are league. How would you feel working hard all year then this thing happens. Would be a big injustice. Could cause some animosity towards the mangers involved and the commish. Just put yourself in 3rd place. How would you feel if this happened?
Accept ? (NO) Counter? (MAYBE) Reject? (YES) Comment on the message boards? (NO) Keep it private? (YES) email and say why this could affect the outcome of league. And how I would get get kicked off other Guru leagues or not invited back or they possibly wouldnt share there mass wisedom on would to draft on TSN or more important there TSNP Calculator @ http://rsf.hopto.org/.
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| 9 | eyerule/u
ID: 220392513
Sun, Jan 25, 2004, 14:59
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Hey Rock, no offense, but this is a no-brainer. Under the scenerio you describe you can't take the trade and it should be vetoed.
Even if a guy didn't like Iverson anyone who's been in a league for more than a year knows that he can get more for Iverson than Bogans. It's clearly an underhanded trade.
Yeah, some leagues are cut throat, but if I find myself in one of those leagues I'm not there the following year. It's not a real game if deals like that are going through without some other factors involved. For instance a league which has a cap and then the move might make some sense.
ONE EXCEPTION: If I'm in a new league and suddenly guys I don't know are making these trades and the commish permits them then I'd snatch up an offer to level the playing field. However, as I said before, it would be my last year in that league.
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| 10 | KnicksFan
Donor
ID: 30815418
Sun, Jan 25, 2004, 18:42
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Two seasons ago I was in a league with YOUNGBUCK and rfs (or was it Mike D? I can't recall), among others. Near the end of the season one of the managers gave up and dumped his players. I picked up the studs he dumped, and YB made a stink about it. Normally I would not do something like this, but my reason was that if I didn't do it, knowing YB, he would have. So like Mike D said, if the league is cutthroat, sometimes you have to play along. If it's a friendly league, you go about things differently. For instance, in Stuck's Guru Qualifiers, Andrei Kirilenko was accidentally dropped. Of course none of us would pick him up - even Tree!
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| 11 | xpdurmind
ID: 45759621
Sun, Jan 25, 2004, 23:31
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Woudn't accept it if TO was a category :)...
Seriously though, if it was between friends that you have developed a relationship with, I wouldn't accept it, unless there are other factors involved.
I'm currently in a yahoo league with 5 friends that I personally know and 2 other managers that I've competed in TSN with for the last 2 years and 4 of their friends( not Belly up).
2 of my friends were involved in a 6 player trade that basically boiled down to Shaq for E. Thomas. When I questionned them about it, I found that a pair of laker tickets was part of the deal. That was fine by me, and I defended it while other managers questionned it and it was vetoed.
If all the managers were friends, I think the trade would have been allowed.
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| 12 | blue hen
ID: 27048221
Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 00:14
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I wouldn't accept the trade mostly because I'd know the league would never go for it. And it's not as fun to win when you cheat. Fleecing is one thing but this one is over the line.
I also have a problem with multi-league trading. In another league, the guy that got Bogans is getting T-Mac (or Bonds!) from the other guy. Not fair.
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| 13 | Aris
ID: 295202323
Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 00:17
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xpdurmind: so it's OK to give away the league championship for Laker tickets and screw 10 people's decent efforts to win?
I play in a league with my friends and I've told them that if anything like this ever happens, I'm dropping all my players and never playing again. It's a waste of a whole season.
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| 14 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 01:44
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OK, say I'm the owner getting bogans and let's throw a couple other wrinkles to it. First let's say that Iverson has been hurt so much or is hurt and will be out for awhile and that's why I'm dumping him. When I think of iverson, i think of injuries--though i give him a world of credit for playing in pain.
2nd, say it's a keeper league and bogans is a young phenom? What if it was a better player even like perhaps Hinrich or milicic or James?
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| 15 | MyLakers
ID: 44851299
Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 12:35
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RFS
It still would have a feeling of some sort of collusion to it were I another of the managers. The points you brought up DID sway me a long ways back to the other side upon reflection(I DO NOT like Iverson)but, are you going to tell this to the whole league? Is that a good precedent to set(needing to explain)? I personally believe that this person could honestly be fed up with Iverson, ready to take a chance that Bogans is a stud down the road. This does not overcome the big advantage the second place person now has in the league for THIS season. The trade should be either Iverson for someone nearer his current value or Bogans for someone nearer to his IMHO.
Very fun discussion RFS.
MyL
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| 16 | leggestand
Sustainer
ID: 451036518
Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 13:15
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Re: 10, Knicksfan,
I thought Ak being dropped might come up in here. I was extremely happy to see that no one in the league picked him up, and it shows the courtesy and good intentions of the players in this league. I knew most people wouldn't touch him, but I thought maybe just one person would pick him up before me (since I was 11th on the waiver list). I am almost 100% sure if I was in a public league with people I didn't know, I would of lost my season with that accidental drop.
As for the rfs scenario, I would be more than happy to take Iverson off this guy's hands if I needed certain categories, and would counter offer the trade to make it a fair deal.
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