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Subject: shaq to the suns?
Posted by: ole
- [2910519] Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 01:36
suns will get shaw, heat will get marion and banks. can't help but think this is a REALLY dumb move by the suns. am i missing something?
shaq to the suns |
| 1 | beebop
ID: 2412141
Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 01:50
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Apparently they want to move Amare to PF and are doing him a "disservice" in playing him at C. My first reaction to the trade was WTF?
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| 2 | Gescom
Leader
ID: 520461315
Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 04:50
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WTF x 2. May be some salary cap considerations but I don't get it. Shaq has 2 years remaining at 20M a piece.
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| 3 | Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 09:26
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You want to know why this trade is happening so quickly?
I actually have a secret audio setup at the Miami Heat offices.
"Wait, they are going to give us Marion AND take Shaq off our hands? Seriously? Is it April 1st? Somebody get Shaq on a plane to Phoenix, what are you standing around for, they might change their minds!!!"
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| 4 | Farn
Leader
ID: 451044109
Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 09:38
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I just hate this deal as a Phoenician. How can you add a 35yr old, often injured, slow and lumbering Center to a team that runs up and down full court at a break neck pace? And to do so you add an extra year of a contract that pays 20 million, which is 3 million more than Marion makes.
Yeah, great. I like Kerr being aggressive but I hate this trade.
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| 5 | Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 09:47
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And the analysts are all talking like this is a great trade for Phoenix.
Do they not realize how great Marion is?
Do us fantasy players think Marion is better than he is?
In reality, are Shaq and Marion somewhat closer?
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| 6 | Farn
Leader
ID: 451044109
Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 09:49
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The only thing I can mildly understand is that the Suns don't really run a 5 man fast break. But by having Shaq out there he immediately becomes the guy who isn't breaking.
Marion is a fantasy stud.... in Phoenix. He's crazy if he thinks Jason Williams will find him as often as Nash did. His stats will take a monster hit and he'll be glad he can opt out after this year.
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| 7 | J
Leader
ID: 049346417
Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 09:59
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So what happens with the Hawks-Heat makeup game that is all because of Shaq's non-foul-out? :)
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| 8 | Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 10:01
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Can they play Marion in that game?!
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| 9 | Farn
Leader
ID: 451044109
Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 10:08
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my guess is no because Marion wasn't in the scorebook when that game took place.
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| 10 | Seward Norse
ID: 297412913
Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 10:10
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Do they get Shaq for a special one game? Very interesting sub-story.
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| 11 | barilko6
ID: 180102816
Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 10:10
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I don't mind this trade for Phoenix. Marion was going to bolt after the season anyways. He wanted out pretty bad.
I agree with Farn. Marion looks a lot better with Nash setting him up so nicely, he won't get as many great chances in Miami. Marion is a finisher, he doesn't really set up plays for himself or others, and suprisingly enough, I think Shaq does.
Phoenix has been playing its uptempo offense for years now, and what has it got them? Regular season success, but no championship. Shaq gives them, if healthy come playoffs, a tough, impossible to defend post presence.
Even in the uptempo offense, not all 5 guys are asked to push up the court on every break, so Shaq can hang back from time to time, and Phoenix also does employ a large percentage of half court game as well, its just not as apparent when you watch the highlights on ESPN.
Shaq's contract is bad, which makes it a suprising move. Marion's value is pretty high, I would say, which also makes it surprising that they couldn't get a protected first rounder back.
All in all, considering Marion was gone the second the season was over, and that Shaq can give the Suns the inside presence that allows them to move Amare back to his natural PF spot, I think Phoenix has set themselves up for a longer playoff run---provided Shaq can stay healthy, which as we all know, is not a 100% guarantee.
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| 12 | beebop
ID: 2412141
Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 15:14
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Okay, they can move Amare back to PF, who gives a crap? How long is Shaq gonna be healthy, and for how many years can Shaq last?? So they can move Amare back to PF for whats most likely gonna be a total of about 40-50 games max. Kerr, your a knob!
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| 13 | Tree
ID: 3533298
Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 16:44
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if i was a Phoenix fan, i'd hate this deal.
Marion is one of the best in the game. Shaq *was* one of the best in the game, but now he's a banged up shadow of his former self, capable of great numbers when healthy, which really isn't often enough for a team contending for a championship.
missing two weeks in the middle of the season isn't the end of the world. but what if he misses two weeks in the playoffs?
add to the fact that the West plays a run-and-gun style. Shaq ain't suited for that at all...
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| 14 | wqrtyt
ID: 369141323
Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 16:47
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Tim Frank of the league office confirmed to RealGM on Wednesday that the trade "doesn't have any bearing" on the game being replayed.
He also added that the final seconds of the game will be played regardless of whether O'Neal is in a Miami uniform or not.
The game was protested because O'Neal was unable to be on the floor, but it is an obvious improbability that he would return to the Heat for those final 51.1 seconds
-RealGM.com
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| 15 | Peter N.
ID: 460332920
Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 17:39
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As a Mavs fan, I love this deal. Now all we have to worry about is the Lakers.
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| 16 | C. Bird
ID: 5510211919
Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 17:59
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It was a panic move by Kerr and the Suns in reaction to LA getting Gasol. A terrible move for the Suns. As a laker fan I couldn't be happier. I can't wait to see Bynum beat up on the old man and for Kobe to put Shaq on the most famous poster ever!
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| 17 | Tosh
Leader
ID: 057721710
Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 18:08
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I think it's an attempt to try and stop Tim Duncan and/or Dirk Nowitzki in the playoffs as much as a response to the Lakers signing of Gasol.
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| 18 | Yehosh
Sustainer
ID: 181082023
Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 19:25
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does the phrase Nashaq work? doesn't sound too marketable
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| 19 | Mike D
Leader
ID: 041831612
Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 19:50
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Marion has never played as well with Amare in the lineup. That's been even more evident this year. Not saying the deal is awesome for Phoenix, but Shaq gives them size and bulk that Marion could not.
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| 20 | ole
ID: 2910519
Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 20:30
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lets look at some stats - the heat are terrible (last) and the suns are great (first). so somehow shaq's performance (or non performance that is, also his injuries) must have contributed to that. on the other hand marion must have contributed to the suns' #1 spot. you can't argue any other way because he started almost all their games. also, looking at the stats such as FG%, 3PT%, RB, AS, ST, BL, PTS - marion is better in all of them except for the FG% (shaq makes almost 6 out of 10 attempts... something that his FT% is likely to negate though).
so, seriously, anyone could simply look at those stats and then wonder why you would trade. shaq's older, more injury prone, slow and way over his peak. marion is tough, fast, can score, younger - and i bet he will make them regret that move very soon. and as if the trade wasn't bad enough, they actually add banks too it. lol.
*shakes his head*
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| 21 | reebbertxx
Leader
ID: 561124720
Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 21:31
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They "added" Banks because he sucks and they didn't want to pay him anymore.
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| 22 | rockafellerskank
Dude
ID: 27652109
Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 21:35
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but Shaq gives them size and bulk that Marion could not.
Yep. that's alotta size sitting there on the end of the bench in a suit and tie.
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| 23 | Mike D
Leader
ID: 041831612
Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 21:37
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LMAO.
I'm sure that's what Kerr had in mind.
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| 24 | rockafellerskank
Dude
ID: 27652109
Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 21:41
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I don't get it.
Preseason, they move Kurt Thomas to avoid the luxury tax. Now, you trade for Shaq you will induce a bigger luxury tax and for an extra year. Isn't a healthy KT just as effective as an over-the-hill Shaq. Welcome to high-stress, Mr. Kerr. i wish I was home in Phoenix to listen to the AM talk radio buzz tonight/tomorrow.
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| 25 | ole
ID: 2910519
Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 21:42
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21 - uhm... banks almost scored the same number of points as shaq when he got similar game time. sure, he's down on rebounds but then he's up on assists. anyway, it's not about banks. it's just a bad trade overall.
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| 26 | Mike D
Leader
ID: 041831612
Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 21:46
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"I will not let you down," O'Neal told Nash on the phone.
I bet Marion never called and said that.
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| 27 | reebbertxx
Leader
ID: 561124720
Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 21:57
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Bank's salary for the next 3 years:
$4,176,000
$4,464,000
$4,752,000
They got out of a terrible contract of a d-league player and Marion who was leaving anyways.
Not saying it will work but the status quo wasn't working either. If Shaq can play 28-30 minutes a game in the playoffs then they have a shot.
While Marion is a great player extra minutes for Diaw,Bell,Hill,and Barbosa will help offset his production. Shaq just gives them an extra option that they did not have before.
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| 28 | CJ
Leader
ID: 499271021
Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 23:34
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First Shaq can be the Diesel at anytime he wants to. Most of his injuries could have been played through. But why kill yourself? Where there is a will there is a way and in Phoenix his will might be much higher than in Miami and even when they won it all a few years back.
Second....Marion was to go anyway.....Try something. Plus most importantly Shaq had Wade in Miami and not much else....here in Phoenix he gets, hill, Amare, and Nash.......Barbosa, and bell Diaw. He may be 35 but in Phoenix he will not be asked to carry 50% of the team and will not have to so he can stay healthy and give 100% when the team most needs him to. Just presence alone will be a rethinking for other teams.
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| 29 | CJ
Leader
ID: 499271021
Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 23:36
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15 Peter N.
LMAO....You better worry about GOLDEN STATE First!
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| 31 | barilko6
ID: 491137128
Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 10:54
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Something that might also be considered: The New York Giants theory. Maybe Marion was a cancer in the dressing room, and with him gone, maybe the Suns become better through subtraction, similar to how the Giants got better with the subtraction of Tiki and Shockey.
I have no idea if Marion's demand for a trade was affecting things, but who knows.
I am still on record as saying its a good move for the Suns, but still thinking they should have also gotten a first round pick included.
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| 32 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 11:34
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The Suns really think they will be better. Shaq is a different position. Shaq brings in a lane-clogger who will block shots and rebound. It doesn't nec. matter if Marion is an all-around better player--he plays the same position as Amare. Plus they were losing Marion after the year anyhow and his constant trade demands hurt the team's morale.
Banks was likely thrown in to match up salary but I really think this helps all players involved. Banks should suddenly get PT as JWill has been bad. Marion becomes the focus with Wade feeding him and Shaq suddenly has a supporting cast and a (ring) motivation.
As far as the teams go, the Heat really win. They now can pay Marion more than anyone else and have a young PG that can also shoot in Banks. Phx is trying to win now and paying a premium to do so. They also don't lose Marion for nothing. My guess is that Shaq's hip gets healthy a lot quicker now too.
I am a Marion fan, but objectively, I understand this move.
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| 33 | Yehosh
Sustainer
ID: 181082023
Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 11:52
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It all comes down to what yo think Shaq can do
Personally, I'm not too impressed with what I've seen him do in the last 3 years. Including the run he had with Miami. IMO, tt was more Zo than Shaq that helped them win against that championship. Once all the role players left (Payton, Walker, Zo...) you actually found out how much of an impact he really had.
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| 34 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 11:57
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The problem is that he's been getting tripled down low. They are not going to be able to do that in Phx. Even doubling him allows the kick out. I think we will see a lot more effective Shaq now. We will see how his ailing hip does, but I think he is more likely to play through pain with a team like Phx.
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| 35 | Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 11:59
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Shaq's always been a pretty good passer for a big guy.
Side note - how good has Gasol looked in the triangle offense?!
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| 36 | Peter N.@TTU Library
ID: 3318711
Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 12:13
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CJ, I was partially joking. ;-) As a Dallas fan, I've come to expect post-season disappointment and hope for the best. I'm glad the media isn't up Dallas' a$$ this year and expecting them to walk to the finals. I'm very content with the LakeShow and Boston getting most of the regular season pub.
I think this trade is Kerr giving D'Antoni a slap in the face. This trade is basically saying the way Phoenix used to play just didn't cut it. I think we are forgetting that they were a few bad calls(by a crew with Tim Donahue) away from beating the Spurs last year. This seems like a classic panic move. Steve Kerr just made the Suns much older and traded away an underrated player in the process. I don't understand why they didn't pony up the money and keep Marion, but no complaints here. I can't wait to see what Kerr does next to further screw up the Suns franchise.
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| 37 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 15:09
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It amazes me how many former players get so much authority (and money) when many of them have no business in that role. So they were a good player. Big deal. Many of them can learn as they go, but that's pretty expensve. Maybe they will turn into someone big. Maybe they will make a lot of mistakes. Seems it would make more sense to groom them a la Indiana and Larry Bird rather than simply give them control and say go to it.
I have no idea how good Steve Kerr is in this role. He might be really good. But so many people assume that good players make good coaches/GMs. I don't buy it at all. In fact, probably the best GMs are the ones who went to school, learned the trade and learned the business. Unfortunately, most of those people don't even get in the door. I understand you'd like to give a former player a job within the organization, but let him work into a role that has to do with the team. Don't give him sole authority until he has shown he gets it. Even when they have a history of failures (Zeke) they still get big time jobs with big money and power. It just blows my mind! Now I respect Nolan Ryan a lot, but what has he done in a front office?
Whether Kerr is right or wrong, it doesn't matter. He's in control and this is what he thinks is best for this team. Obviously there are others in the organization who have a voice, but Kerr trumps everyone except ownership and they are the ones who hired him to make these decisions in the first place.
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| 38 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 15:17
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This is a good read.
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| 39 | leggestand
Leader
ID: 451036518
Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 15:22
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Ref - OT, but have you read Moneyball ? Great book and it sounds like it might be right up your alley based on post 37...
Back to topic...
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| 40 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 15:30
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leggestand, I haven't read it yet and I agree with you. Thanks.
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| 41 | barilko6
ID: 33128714
Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 15:58
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re: 37 What a lot of people don't realize, is that Steve Kerr is actually a part owner of the Suns. So in reality, maybe he just gave the job to himself! (Of course with Robbie Sarver's blessing)
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| 42 | blue hen
ID: 16322314
Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 16:29
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Second that. Ref, you HAVE to read it or else I lay claim to your first two picks in G20.
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| 43 | Da Bomb
Donor
ID: 487112814
Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 16:44
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I think a big reason why former players get the upperhand for receiving front office positions and coaching jobs has to do with experience. Kerr actually played the game, so he immediately has an advantage over anyone who didn't. Exactly how much of an advantage it is is anyone's guess, but I perceive it to be a fairly large one.
Kerr knows what a team needs to win more than most, and obtaining Shaq might seem puzzling at first, but it could very well turn out to be a big success for them.
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| 44 | Tree
ID: 4110717
Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 18:18
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I think a big reason why former players get the upperhand for receiving front office positions and coaching jobs has to do with experience. Kerr actually played the game, so he immediately has an advantage over anyone who didn't.
Red Auerbach never played in the NBA. I'm pretty sure Chuck Daly didn't either. Jack Ramsay didn't play in the NBA.
some of the best coaches in the history of the NBA never played in the NBA.
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| 45 | Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 18:28
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Shaq or Tim Duncan have won seven of the last eight championships. Tim Duncan was not available.
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| 46 | Kyle
Donor
ID: 052753312
Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 19:27
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43: Paxson sucks as a GM in my opinion. I think we all know how good Isiah is. Bird really isn't that great when he was in the frong office. Former players in these instances don't have good track records.
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| 47 | Da Bomb
Donor
ID: 487112814
Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 19:48
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Well obviously some of the best coaches weren't former players and some poor GMs were. My point was that those who are former players (in any sport) have a better chance to succeed as a coach or a GM. I'm not going to create a whole list making the comparisons right now, but two names who do immediately come to mind who have seen success are Phil Jackson and Danny Ferry.
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| 48 | ole
ID: 2910519
Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 19:51
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45 hah, good point ;-)
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| 49 | The Bandwagon
Sustainer
ID: 479521116
Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 14:44
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I think it's a great trade for the Suns. We all forget that Nash is 34, and when he slows down, so will the Suns. I think the Suns window of opportunity is 2 years, so thats why Shaq makes sense IMO.
Shaq doesn't get motivated for the regular season, never has, but he'll be there come playoff time. Now you have to choose to double Amare or Shaq, which opens up the Suns 3 point shooters to go along with the slashing Grant Hill.
The Suns need Shaq in the playoffs against teams like the Spurs, Lakers, Rockets. If they play the Warriors, maybe Diaw would be a better fit in that series.
Marion is a elite fantasy player because he does a little bit of everything, but in the NBA, he isn't close to a Nash/Kobe/Lebron/KG/Dirk/Duncan/Amare/Wade etc etc. Those players are true impact players that can't be replaced, Marion can.
If you were going to start a real NBA team, and start with one player, I doubt Marion would be in your top 15 or 20 unless you simply rely on fantasy stats :)
The trade works for the Heat also because they are rebuilding, and Marion is younger than Shaq, or they can let him go at season's end.
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| 50 | Farn
Leader
ID: 451044109
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 18:55
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for those that care, Shaq is out for tonight and is unlikely for tomorrow.
Its widely expected he will debut next Wednesday, the first game back after the break (which is against Kobe).
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