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0 Subject: Price chnages being examined

Posted by: Dave R
- SuperDude [3010361110] Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 09:12

Posted on your team page:

Important Note: We have frozen all players because we are reviewing last nights price update. Players will be unfrozen as soon possible.
1allhair allstars
      ID: 50902421
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 09:15
No way! I want to keep my +900K from last night!!! ;)
      ID: 501182710
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 10:12
The price update issue from 12/17 was due to an error in the price dampening process that takes place at the end of the price update process. Normally, we take the players that move the most(up or down) and dampen their movement in order to limit major movements. This did not happen last night. Their were only 13 players that were affected. We are not going to change the prices of these players. Instead, we are going to adjust the cash remaining of teams that owned these players at 11pm last night. This could result in a negative cash balance for some teams. These teams will not be able to make any moves until they sell a player and buy a player that makes up the difference. We apologize for the inconvenience and confusion due to our error and believe that our solution is the best possible one. Players will remain frozen until this is completed, hopefully by Noon today. Below is the list of players affected and their cash adjustment that will be made for teams that owned them at 11pm last night.

Stuckey, Rodney -270000
Bonner, Matt -180000
Duncan, Tim -90000
Parker, Tony -40000
Rondo, Rajon -30000
Nowitzki, Dirk -20000
Felton, Raymond +30000
Okafor, Emeka +30000
Augustin, D.J. +40000
Hawes, Spencer +50000
Foye, Randy +70000
Chandler, Wilson +100000
Duhon, Chris +140000

from EFerreira-TSN
      ID: 330592710
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 10:13
This could cause some cash headaches for teams with Stuckey & Bonner.
      ID: 161542014
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 10:22
The only difference it would make would be if they sold them after 11pm yesterday which probably not likely for the big price gainers who were probably holds today anyway.
      ID: 361022217
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 10:26
How is that a solution? I had plans with my cash that had
absolutely nothing to do with bonner and stuckey.

Way to go sporting actually just made your SNAFU
      ID: 349431211
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 10:28
Does anyone else think this is a horrible solution? Not only will it cause managers with negative cash balances to make an extra trade, but for people who had earmarked cash for later moves, they might not be able to afford them now. Plus, people who were waiting to pick up guys like Stuckey at a later point might not be able to afford the wacky price.
      ID: 330592710
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 10:32
Anyone who waited a day to move from Barea to Stuckey now has to pay an extra $270K for the swap.

This solution addresses only teams that owned these players. It screws teams that planned to buy them in the future.

And it temporarily screws teams with Bonner and Stuckey, too, since it reduces their cash balance as long as those players are owned, thereby reducing trading flexibility until that time.

In a way, it almost seems like the solution is worse than doing nothing.
      ID: 2111213116
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 10:33
The only people it affects are the ones who made a trade after 11 EST. Gonna miss my 900k increase
      ID: 501182710
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 10:33
In a way, it almost seems like the solution is worse than doing nothing.

I think I agree on that.
      ID: 5810561615
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 10:36
I have already been to the TSN site to voice my concern about their "make-up" call on this issue. Make-up calls never solve the problem and only create new problems.

I would encourage each of you to voice your displeasure with their decision. As of now, doing nothing is the best solution, not this new problem they created.
      ID: 451044109
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 10:37
Guru is spot on. And money4later is way off.

This move affects all the people who planned to buy Stuckey or Bonner. They are now paying an inflated price that never should have been reached last night.

Thank god for free bonus tokens each year because TSN hasn't been worth paying for in a long time (since Smallworld really).
      ID: 349431211
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 10:38
Is there a "solution" where they could add cash to even things out? It just seems that taking money away creates so many problems.
      ID: 361022217
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 10:39

That's just not true. See Guru's post.

G, I've voiced my displeasure too.

      ID: 497411012
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 10:46
Why arent they adjusting the players prices too? and then jsut deducting from cash balances if you moved one of those players?
      ID: 349431211
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 10:46
Following up on my idea above, what if they added $270k cash to anyone who did not have Stuckey last night? +$180k for Bonner, +$90k for Bonner, etc. The people who still own Duhon, for example, would get a $140k boost. +$100k for Chandler.
      ID: 161542014
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 10:49
I agree they should just adjust the player price rather than the cash. Somehow, that is what I thought they were doing.
17Dean Martin
      ID: 3011431711
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 11:09
Where on the TSN site do we go to complain about this?

I already had a shrinking window for the Paul triangle move, now I have to pay 200k more for Duncan today.
      ID: 451044109
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 11:13
You can complain at their forums:

TSN Ultimate Hoops Forums

Obviously they will ignore you but it never hurts to tell them they are doing an awful job.
19Headless T Gunners
      ID: 4173916
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 11:21
As a long ago accounting clerk, it hurts my sensibilities when:
Franchise value minus roster value does not equal cash remaining
It sure as hell won't work in a spreadsheet
Isn't this the way the economy went down the toilet :)
20Dean Martin
      ID: 3011431711
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 11:28
Absolute madness!
So because TSN made a mistake on a few players, the cash remaining on my team dropped from a million to 770k. Add the fact the player I'm buying from Paul today is 200k more. That's over 400k vanished in one day, now my window is gone for future moves.
All they had to do was adjust the players affected prices as I'm pretty sure this was done in past years when they screwed up.
      ID: 330592710
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 11:32
From the messages at the TSN forum, they are more interested in expediency than in correctness (or integrity).
      ID: 451044109
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 11:35
That site continues to embarrass itself every season. One day my tokens will run out and I'll be done with it.
      ID: 301442416
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 12:00

Maybe I did something wrong (but I don't think so), but I have Bonner and Stuckey and Hawes, and my RV + cash = FV.

It shows me as -$400K for the night, but my team history page looks right with a $110 increase over the previous day. Last night my increase showed +$510 so that appears balanced too...

My numbers appear correct.
      ID: 451044109
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 12:09
I don't think they've actually made the changes yet.
      ID: 330592710
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 12:09
[19] It works in my spreadsheet. I don't understand your issue.
      ID: 330592710
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 12:09
Changes were made before noon.
27Headless T Gunners
      ID: 4173916
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 12:35
(25) that was before changes to FV - it's OK now
      ID: 330592710
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 12:56
Some day, Matt Bonner's price will probably drop to $500K again. People who hold him that long will effectively be getting out at a price of $320K.
      ID: 2842717
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 13:05
I think it is clear that TSN tried to come up with a quick fix to a problem and the solution is worse than the original problem.
It seems they are going to defend their solution no matter what no matter how many people it affects.
      ID: 1311551521
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 13:08
i stopped playing TSN quite some time ago. they really did stop caring about customer service, and when they did, the game went out the window.
      ID: 330592710
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 13:13
I just posted the following at the TSN forum. Does anyone think this would not work?

My next suggestion is a serious one, even though you may regard it as sarcastic.

Why not make offsetting price adjustments as part of tonight's player repricing?

For example, reduce Stuckey's price change by $270K from whatever it would otherwise be. If his actual change should be $+150, make it -$120.

Ditto for Bonner, and Duncan, and Hawes, and the other impacted players. Up and down.

Simultaneously, make a cash balance adjustment to all teams that still hold these players. Anyone who owns Stuckey will get a cash infusion of $270K.

By tomorrow, almost every team will be back on an equivalent footing. The only teams that will have an issue are those who wanted to make a trade today but are no longer able to afford it today. But they are screwed anyway, so this doesn't add insult to injury.

Unless you do something like this, there are going to be all sorts of lingering side effects that are going to frustrate your most loyal customers.

Again - I am dead serious about this suggestion. Please don't dismiss it as sarcasm.

Two wrongs may not make a right, but they can get much closer than the status quo. MUCH closer. And this actually would demonstrate a commitment to the integrity of the game - an ingredient which the status quo sadly lacks.
      ID: 2910242819
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 13:38
I think it's a good one. I think anything other than what they came up with makes sense.

Their defiant stubborness is actually just weird.
33allhair allstars
      ID: 50902421
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 13:58
That sounds like a good suggestion. Anything that gets us closer to where we should be is better than where we are.
      ID: 330592710
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 14:29
An open letter to TSN
      ID: 361022217
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 14:51
well put Guru. Thanks!
      ID: 330592710
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 15:22
Unfortunately, they seem to be unable or unwilling to comprehend why the status quo isn't good enough, or at least that it could be improved without extreme measures.

It's enough to make me question my continued affiliation and support.

To err is human...

But we deserve a better response than "time to move on." So far, though, that's the most compelling rationale that I've seen.
      ID: 330592710
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 16:54
Breaking news - I just had a telephone conversation the Dave Berger, and I think they are going to add approx $600K to all teams' cash ASAP.

If so, this goes a long way to restoring some equity. It's a bit inflationary, but much better than the status quo.
      ID: 330592710
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 16:56
However, don't react irreversibly until you see something official at the TSN site.
      ID: 311191722
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 16:59
Prices frozen... stay tuned
      ID: 311191722
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 17:04
YES!!!!!! Cash updated!! Thanks Guru!
      ID: 330592710
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 17:10
They added $610K to every team, which is the maximum amount of cash that any team could have lost earlier today.

It's not a perfect solution, but it is far better than the solution they had been stuck on.

At least, no team now loses to the ability to follow through on plans that rightfully should have been executable today and in the week ahead.

I'm glad I persisted in fighting back. And persisted. And persisted. I've gotta admit, though, at one point I felt like I was spitting into a headwind.

Spend your bailout money wisely!
      ID: 301442416
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 17:11
This is the letter from TSN just posted. Many thanks to Guru for your efforts.:

First, I want to apologize to everyone for the kind of day this has been... It's all avoidable when our game runs correctly, and the fault here lies with us.

When we realized this morning that there were price issues last night, we locked down the game, and attempted to fix, following some protocols that worked very well for us in a similar situation in baseball this past summer. However, the implications were significantly greater here in the basketball game, and we did not take this into account appropriately.

I've had numerous conversations today with many of you, and unfortunately, there's only so much we can do to make this better. It won't be perfect, it won't be "right"... just the best we can make it, considering where we are.

All teams will get a one-time cash infusion ASAP of $610,000. this is the most money deducted from anyone as a result of our initial fix. This should let anyone make any preplanned move that they wanted.

It will make things easier for some people who didn't have the cash to make certain moves before.

Special thanks to the folks at for their help in reaching this decision.

If you're still unhappy with this resolution, please PM me directly, and I will do what I can to make it right for you, on a case-by-case basis.

GM, Fantasy Games
      ID: 349431211
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 17:12
They really bungled this, but kudos to TSN for eventually listening to us and appreciating our concerns.
      ID: 311191722
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 17:17
Hey Guru.....they gave you some props!!!! WooHoo!!!!!
      ID: 311191722
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 17:19
By the way, this isn't one of those "bailouts" that will require us to pay it back at a later date is it? ;>)
      ID: 2910242819
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 17:39
thanks Guru!
      ID: 2842717
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 17:46
Now if I could just figure out a way to use some of this bailout money to pay my mortgage.


When you talked to David was there any discussion on how TSN should handle these problems in the future?
While this final solution is much better than the original solution offered by TSN I think it falls very short of the better fix.
The prices of the affected players should have been adjusted and then the handful of teams that traded out before the rosters were locked should have had cash either added or subtracted.
      ID: 421021139
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 17:50
I don't play Smallworld (TSN) anymore either, but I've got to hand it to Guru--both now and back when I did play, he's come to TSN's "rescue" with suggestions for solutions numerous times that I recall.

One of the reasons I don't play Ultimate Hoops anymore is because of the annual TSN snafu like this one that would inevitably pop up during the season. The Baron Davis pricing glitch comes to mind, among others. It was always clear that their Hoops games were the red-headed stepchildren to their Football and Baseball games.

Anyway, props to Guru again. I feel TSN would be better off if they had someone like Guru running the Ultimate Hoops game. Or better yet, if Guru created his own Hoops game based on the same premises as TSN's. How about it, Dave? Ever give any thought to taking over the (Small)world?

      ID: 330592710
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 18:00
Weykool [47] - No discussion on future fixes if the issue recurs. At a minimum, though, they are unlikely to start with the solution they started with today.

He did mention that when they used the initial approach in last season's baseball glitch, they got kudos for a timely and effective resolution. I'm not sure why the same issues weren't apparent then. (I don't even remember the circumstance.) But they were really taken off guard this morning when so many pointed out holes in their approach.

I still don't know why some of the better fixes were dismissed, either; I never got a straight answer. Perhaps they have no confidence in their ability to make manual price manipulations on the fly? But they really never seemed to seriously consider restating prices, today or tonight.

Logan [48] - Thanks, but no thanks. I don't need the headaches!
      ID: 561124720
      Thu, Dec 18, 2008, 18:23
From what I have read from David Berger he seems to be pretty decent to deal with and generally wants to get it right. That's what made everything so discouraging that happened earlier today. It seemed Efferia was given a directive to tell us "it is what it is" and move on. I am glad Guru managed to talk to David and at least came up with a more manageable solution.
51Pacers Rule
      ID: 910311210
      Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 00:48
51 - Tree, that was my experience as well. Still a really cool game and concept - just tough with technical problems coupled with an apparent indifference at times to the customer. When they didn't pay me $90 of winnings one year after they accepted my registration fees (with the promise of payouts) and didn't respond to my emails...that was a deal breaker.

To be sure, we expect a lot, but responding to communication and making timely payments of monies owed would seem to be a basic no-brainer first step in customer service. We'll see how long it takes them to pay everyone this year.

*Perhaps* they are turning over a new leaf. I'd probably like to see them make good on old debts before I reach that conclusion, however. Like that's gonna happen.
      ID: 451115193
      Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 04:25
what a day...
53Headless T Gunners
      ID: 4173916
      Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 11:15
did we all get the cash infusion of $610,000
how could I have missed that ?
      ID: 188411214
      Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 11:28
it's a cash infusion after getting docked however much for the pricing teams without stuckey and bonner actually made a nice profit. but those with them...or other affected players...won't see much of a difference...probably gain a couple hundred K in cash.
56Headless T Gunners
      ID: 4173916
      Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 12:00
when was that supposed to happen?
      ID: 499271021
      Sun, Dec 21, 2008, 02:26
I had bonner and no Stuckey how will I be affected? I think you will always have this once or twice a year and I am fine with it. Just as long as they do not make it worse which sometimes back tracking can kill future I think doing nothing and acknowledging it and moving on initially would have been the right things to do. In the end I believe I will benefit even more as I did not have Stuckey. I wasn't hungry that day for candy!
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