I Site / Stat Source / League Fees All game, roster and scoring rules will be governed by Yahoo. There is no fee for using Yahoo.
II Draft The Supplemental Draft consists of a slow draft and held on the Draftime.com website. Time limits will be three hours for individual picks and 8 hours cumulative clock. You may draft until your picks run out or you have reached twelve (12) players. The clock will be stopped from midnight to 8 AM ET but picks may be made during that time. If you time out, you will be skipped and may select at any time. If you have been skipped and have not made up that pick and it becomes your turn again, you will be skipped for that pick as well. If you leave a Q and that person is available to post your pick, you will not be charged any time on your cumulative clock.
The draft order will be reverse of last year's regular season finish and it will NOT snake. Only players currently in the NBA database are eligible to be drafted. Waivers Priority will begin in the same order as the basic draft order (lottery excluded). Please note: The bottom 14 teams will be in the lottery similar to the actual NBA draft. Top three picks for next year will be selected via lottery. 4th-14th picks will be selected based on inverse order of standings.
III League Settings: Draft Type: Offline Draft and E-mail draft Max Teams: 20 Scoring Type: Rotisserie Max Moves: No maximum Max Trades: No maximum Trade Review: League Votes (7 needed to veto) Post Draft Players: Follow Waiver Rules Max Games Played: 720 (enforced by position) Roster Positions: G, G, F, F, C, Util, Util, Util, BN, BN, BN, BN, IL (a 2nd IL slot will be added for the 2023-24 season and beyond) Stat Categories: FG%, FT%, 3PTM, PTS, OREB, REB, AST, ST, BLK
IV Minimum Games Played / Penalties A team must accumulate a minimum of 656 GP (82 GP/pos) over the course of a season. For each 8 games of shortfall (1 GP/pos), a team is assigned one demerit. Demerits will be integer values only. Thus, a team with 1-8 games of shortfall will receive one demerit, 9-16 will receive 2 demerits, etc.
If a team finishes in the money for prize pool purposes (ranked 1-6), then demerits will be ignored.
For lottery teams, the following penalties will be applied to every pick in the next year's supplement draft:
If a team accumulates more than 10 demerits, then it will be removed from the lottery and assigned the 14th pick in all rounds (i.e., behind all lottery teams, but ahead of any prize pool teams.)
For teams with less than 10 demerits, that team is pushed forward one place in the supplemental draft rankings for each demerit. For example, if a team finishes in last place (20th) and has 5 demerits, then that team will be treated in the draft rankings as though it finished in 15th place (and the teams actually finishing in places 16-20 will each move down one place.)
If more than one lottery team has a demerit, then the lottery rankings will be successively applied starting with the worst finisher and then moving up to the next worst finisher, etc.
Note: While the maximum number of games is measured on a GP/pos (enforced by the ESPN site), the minimum number of games is NOT. For minimum games, all measurements are based on total games played without regard for position.
V Trades All trades during the season must be submitted via the website's offer trade feature to the league for review. If there is a draft pick it needs to be posted in our thread at rotoguru.com and needs to be confirmed by both parties. You might want to rationalize your trade as it takes just 7 members to reject the trade. You have one day to reject it so please check the site at LEAST once per day (many will have the email feature that emails all accepted trades). Remember with a Keeper league there may be draft picks involved so take the time to check those before rejecting it. Please only reject a trade based on the trade and not the teams involved. A trade by its very nature should help both teams either now, the future or both. All off-season/preseason trades will be governed by a commish.
VI Keepers Returning owners will have a deadline to declare what players from their team they wish to keep. Each owner may keep up to 6.
You may keep less than six. You may trade keepers after you have declared, but you may not go over six until all 20 teams have officially declared at the Keeper deadline. At that point you may go up to 12 players.
If you keep less than six, the only way you can add a sixth keeper is via trade. You may not drop a player until after the draft is complete.
If you do not name your Keepers by the deadline, the commish(s) will choose those for you and they will be final. If you post your Keepers after the deadline but before the commish posts, your Keepers will be honored. Typically, the commish(s) will start figuring out uncommitted Keepers as soon as the deadline has passed.
All un-kept players will go into the draft. A player MUST be in the NBA database in order to be kept.
The only off-season transactions that will be allowed are trades. No free agents may be picked up after the end of the season. Trades of a player for a draft pick are allowed.
VII Prizes
A fine plaque will be engraved and shipped to the winner courtesy of the previous year's winner. The trophy will be yours to proudly display with your other cherished mementos for 1 year. It will be the winner's responsibility to engrave it and ship it to the winner. There will be an added nominal fee to help cover expenses related to the engraving and shipping of the plaque.
A separate cash prize pool has also been established. It is strictly voluntary. Only those who participate will be eligible for this prize. $15 USD entry must be paid by the season opener. The exact method of prize distribution will vary from year to year depending on participation. We focus payouts so it will NOT be winner take all. Six owners will have a chance to win something. Prize pool funds are due by Opening Night.
If any of the non-participants qualify, the prizes will be reallocated by the commissioners. Managers will move up payout position(s) and any remaining funds will go into the trophy fund.
Treasurer will announce payouts and non-participants.
VIII Owners
As commissioners, we reserve the right NOT to extend an invitation to or remove any owner for any reason. Primary reason for being excluded would be abusive behavior (beyond friendly trash talk, harassment), purposeful rules violations (i.e. colluding on a trade), inactivity (i.e. leaving injured players in as starters repeatedly), unresponsive to other owners or commish(s), missing deadlines (i.e. keepers, draft picks, etc.). If an owner is NOT invited back next year. A new owner will be recruited to take over the vacated team in its exact state.
IX 2023 Draft Pick Trades: # Date - Sends - Round - For - Round 1 2022-10-06 Dave R 1 WWCBD 4
X League Champions: 2003 Peter N 2004 A Perfect 10 2005 Twarpy 2006 RecycledSpinalFluid 2007 beastiemiked 2008 beastiemiked 2009 Ref 2010 Pete N. 2011 Pacers Rule 2012 beastiemiked 2013 Great One 2014 WG 2015 Species 2016 Pete N. 2017 RecycledSpinalFluid 2018 RecycledSpinalFluid 2019 RecycledSpinalFluid 2020 RecycledSpinalFluid 2021 WG 2022 skinneej
Only the 50 most recent replies are currently shown. Click on this text to display hidden posts as well. [Lengthy or complex threads may require a slight delay before updating.]
The irony of this is that myself and Rich were almost certainly going to finish bottom 2 anyway since he was so far behind in games played by midseason and I drafted/traded for every player in the hospital I could find. But having a "who could suck the hardest" stream battle was more entertaining than doing nothing. I'm fine with you (Tree) having an ethical problem with it, different strokes, but please ease up on the high horse. Not everyone thinks we're the devil.
Good times!
142
Bean
ID: 12552510 Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 17:14
With the additions of youngroman, RSF and Tosh we now have a 11-0 majority to pass Guru's resolution outlined in <106>. I would ask that Guru provide details of how it will be implemented with percentages, so we can all understand better. If someone vehemently objects to what Guru offers us, and can get a second, then we can put a specific change to a vote. However, I think most of us have an abundance of trust in Guru's judgement.
143
Bean
ID: 12552510 Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 17:38
Now, it appears that a number of people want to implement these changed lottery odds this off-season, and not wait until next off-season. Let's get to that.
I think everyone can appreciate the traditional undocumented standard of waiting a year to implement in-season changes. The 2nd IL slot we passed this year is an example of that. However, it can be a nuanced argument, both the pro and the con, for any particular off-season rule. Implementing an off-season rule change, without waiting a year, gives an opportunity for argument.
The argument against implementing an in-season rule change without waiting a year is often that "had I known that, I would have acted differently this season. Let's wait to change that til next year."
The argument against implementing an off-season rule change, without waiting a year, should meet that same standard I would think. Or is this now an exception, or refinement to the unwritten rule?
With what I have said as a back drop, I think we should let the membership decide. Are we ready for a vote now, or should we air the arguments a bit?
144
Bean
ID: 12552510 Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 18:56
I have copied this table from the article that Guru linked to us in <106>:
Team > Odds for No. 1 Pick
Team 1 > 14.0% Team 2 > 14.0% Team 3 >14.0% Team 4 > 12.5% Team 5 > 10.5% Team 6 > 9.0% Team 7 > 7.5% Team 8 > 4.5% Team 9 > 4.5% Team 10 > 4.5% Team 11 > 1.8% Team 12 > 1.7% Team 13 > 1.0% Team 14 > 0.5%
Until now, I did not make the connection that both G20 and the NBA have exactly 14 lottery teams. Sorry Guru, I guess you have given us all everything we needed.
Argument is the real world example that we are emulating.
NBA - Voted to change Sept 2017 to curtail egregious tanking. Enacted 2019 draft. Low end teams teams knew in advance the stakes.
We should vote for this proposal to go in next season as it has several positives for the league WITHOUT punishing anyone specifically.
A vote to implement this year is only realistically punishing WWC and I and that issue, if members really hold that strong of an opinion that it is an issue, should be separated because its a completely different discussion.
That being said I vote to wait a year.
146
ttucowboy
ID: 31142221 Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 19:17
I vote aye and would support immediate implementation instead of waiting a year. Lottery breakdown posted in 144 replicates the NBA which works for me.
147
ttucowboy
ID: 31142221 Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 19:20
The only “downside” to not waiting a year is it “punishes” two teams that weren’t really concerned with anyone but themselves so I don’t really have any sympathy there.
148
BB the Ball
ID: 5535417 Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 19:40
So I am one of the “just for fun” guys so I may have a different opinion (money does have an impact). I believe rules are in place for a good reason— we want to avoid certain behavior. So the minimum games played rule is in place to discourage intentional tanking. This new measure is not a change in expectation –it was NEVER OK to tank. This just reduces the reward for someone who intentionally tanks. 14% odds are still an advantage in getting the #1 pick. I don’t think that tanking is “evil” –it just isn’t something I would choose to do and something the league has identified as something it does not want to reward. I would vote to implement the change immediately.
149
Bean
ID: 12552510 Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 20:59
OK, just scrolled up a bit to <106>, to see and tally what people have said. Everyone is in favor of doing the change. Some of us are even embarrassed to say, we were surprised it hadn't been changed already.
Not committed: youngroman; Knicksfan; Fosten; Bean; Guru (5)
Never voted: skineej; DaveR; artofmonk; twolves; PermDude (5)
Will ping the "not committed" and "never voted" to get them to weigh in. Meanwhile, if I have mischaracterized your thoughts in the summary above, let me know.
It will take 11 votes to implement this immediately. It has 7 votes now. There are 10 voters undeclared.
150
skinneej
ID: 73141110 Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 21:30
Ok with draft changes and vote to wait a year to implement.
151
Tree
ID: 4741579 Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 08:22
The only “downside” to not waiting a year is it “punishes” two teams that weren’t really concerned with anyone but themselves so I don’t really have any sympathy there.
this.
and.
This new measure is not a change in expectation –it was NEVER OK to tank
this.
and finally, fixed this:
A vote to implement this year next year is only realistically punishing rewarding WWC and I and that issue...
152
Perm Dude
ID: 28128412 Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 10:09
#149: I hadn't voted because, until #144, it wasn't clear what we were voting on specifically.
If we're combining votes, then: I vote to implement the new draft odds but waiting a year to do so.
OK, soapbox time. This is only my 3rd year in this league so I have no skin in the evolution of the current rules or any experience with past issues that led to those rules (or lack of rules). But I've been playing fantasy hoops and football for a long time and would like to just throw some of my personal perspective out as food for thought.
First of all, I put forth my best effort to get the most out of my team no matter where I sit in the standings or what the ceiling seems to be. There are 2 primary reasons for this:
1. At the end of the season, I like to be able to look in the mirror and tell my self that my team was bad because I suck, not because I didn't try my best. Sometimes it's bad breaks with injuries and players having down years. Sometimes it's just bad decisions. But I own it. Any other way to do it is just disrespecting myself.
2. The second reason is that how my team performs impacts more than just me. Even the worst team in a category league is likely to be competitive in some categories with teams in the running to place near the top. Not trying my best not only disrespects myself, it disrespects the entire league. We all deserve to have end of season results that reflect the true strength of the teams and efforts of the owners.
A final point involves why we play fantasy sports in the first place. For me it's fun and challenging. If it's tough to scrape together the league fee or you need the winnings to feed your family, maybe you shouldn't be doing this. It's supposed to be fun and we need to keep that perspective. However we need ALL the members to feel that way to keep the need for governance at a minimum. The point has been made that NBA teams tank, so it's OK for us to tank. Seriously? Let's just say the stakes are just a wee bit higher for the IRL teams. We all should make our best efforts to field a competitive team. Trade current production for youth/potential or draft picks? Sure, go for it. Sit your best players on the bench and start scrubs to finish lower in the standings? In other words working to be as bad as possible. Never and it can't be tolerated for the league results to have any meaning at all. Even if we're just here to have fun.
154
Guru
ID: 330592710 Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 12:40
In general, I'm opposed to implementing rule changes mid-season.
Having said that, I'm not sure whether this is really a "rules change", or just a recalibration of the lottery probabilities to more closely conform to the NBA practice.
Clearly, when the lottery was set up, the intent was to closely mimic the NBA odds. When it the NBA changed it's selection, we probably should have considered a comparable adjustment. It just never occurred to me.
Also, I suspect that most league managers aren't particularly familiar with the lottery odds that we have been using. I often post those at the time of each lottery, but my suspicion is that most managers don't pay that much attention.
I do note that the rules listed in the opening post of this thread say only "The bottom 14 teams will be in the lottery similar to the actual NBA draft."
So arguably, making the change immediately does seem to be consistent with the stated rules. If anything, the lottery has been incorrectly run for the last several years. (So fire me!)
Based on all of this, I vote to approve the change immediately.
Any rule change made in season that disproportionately targets any league members for no quantitative objective reason is unfair, unethical, and tantamount to cheating. Lets Change Ace High to Ace Low after the final bet because only 10% of the players landed Aces. Might as well play "I win" with scooba steve and Julian the kid from Big Daddy.
Because of this I maintain it should be a separate conversation - removing all bias. The rule change is a good idea on its own. It should update as the IL spot did - waiting a year.
Then whomever can call for whatever punishment they selfishly want or earnestly believe is deserved for whatever reason and we can let the commissioners decide or vote or however we want to do that biased or not.
"it was never ok to tank" I have no issue with this - put it in the thread header lets tie it to the demerit system or a punishment. Want it to be as serious as "You Tank, youre gone"? Fine by me but dont move the goal posts after I already kicked the ball.
156
Bean
ID: 12552510 Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 14:14
OK, I was on the fence, though leaning toward immediate. I am going to commit to immediate now.
Wait for 2024/25 Draft: R-Money; Duff; GO; skineej; PermDude (5)
Not committed: youngroman; Knicksfan; Fosten (3)
Never voted: DaveR; artofmonk; twolves (3)
It will take 11 votes to implement this immediately. It has 9 votes now. There are 6 voters undeclared. You'll have until 11:59PM EDT on 12 APR 2023 to cast your vote.
Thats my "serious" answer - feel free to pick at it, petty or otherwise.
Really its just the simple adage of "ball dont lie"
If we are really in the wrong, we wont get the pick. RNGesus will abandon us to toil in the remains.
158
youngroman
ID: 515013 Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 14:50
implement immediately
159
Tree
ID: 4741579 Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 15:45
Any rule change made in season that disproportionately targets any league members for no quantitative objective reason is unfair, unethical, and tantamount to cheating...
so, what you're saying is that "even though something is in the overall best interest of the league, I CONSIDER IT CHEATING AND WHAT ABOUT ME?!?!!?!"
that in itself says all one needs to know to want this change implemented immediately.
160
KnicksFan
ID: 42351514 Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 15:51
I vote for implement immediately, only because I think it’s a pretty minor change, and if it wasn’t for this heated argument I don’t think anyone would care too much that the weightings of the draft lottery were being adjusted mid season. If this was a vote to seriously punish tanking teams, like forfeiture of a draft pick, then I would vote for a delay in implementation.
I don't think making the change now "punishes" anyone. The 3 bottom teams still have the best odds to get the 1st picks. We have a lottery because we don't want the last place team to automatically get the first pick. Nothing really changes as the spirit of the rule remains the same. The undesirable, anti-competitive behavior still gets the best odds. No harm, no foul.
162
Perm Dude
ID: 28128412 Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 15:58
I think it is fair to ask, Tree, what the goal is here.
There's no doubt that this will pass in some form, which means that if this works as intended then there will be no tanking in the future.
So the only reason to implement it now is to punish managers who you believe broke the rules.
Honestly I'm not convinced that any actual rules were broken. And your responses (which boil down to "C'mon!! Of course they are!") aren't really convincing. Just MO. There are no standards or metrics in place to demonstrate what you say is obvious. A manager acting in their own interest isn't enough, either.
Certainly having the lottery in place should discourage it in the future.
163
WG
ID: 89402220 Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 15:59
My thoughts
Duff post 140: Being behind in games played isn't a justification IMO, and probably speaks more to inactivity/inattentiveness. Making adds obviously isn't a requirement and injuries do happen, but it becomes evident when managers aren't checking and their better players aren't started.
Bean post 144: I just fail to understand how managers would have acted differently if odds for the bottom weren't as high. Would they have not tanked? Not as hard? Isn't that a good thing? I suspect they still would have.
Philly Busters post 153: spot on.
R-Money post 155: you're saying implementing now is unfair and unethical... and many others are saying actively tanking is unfair and unethical. AFAIK there isn't a rule saying any change must wait a year (IL change) so why should one interpretation of fairness trump another? Hence, voting.
It's obvious what all this is about, some managers thinking the way teams ended up in the bottom is not just and shouldn't be rewarded. Wembanyama being available next year almost certainly factors into all this as well. Given that some would probably rather the bottom 2 teams be removed from the lottery altogether, I think the worse odds is a pretty good compromise. Heck, as I said before I think 10% odds for the bottom 10 would be even better, but I'll manage.
164
Bean
ID: 12552510 Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 16:08
So with the opinions of youngroman and knicksfan now in the record books, we have eleven votes in favor of immediate implementation, and it is now decided.
As Guru has stated, it probably should have been implemented earlier, but it's a little late to do the 2022 draft over, don't you think?
I only wish we could have resolved it without the vitriol and demonization. However, I'll just attribute that to courtroom drama. You guys really lawyered up this time.
Thanks to everyone for getting your votes in quickly. Glad this is now behind us, and we can all focus on the top of the standings, instead of the bottom.
165
Fosten
ID: 56320515 Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 16:21
Looks like we have a winner. For the record, I also vote to implement immediately.
Side note: Regarding web scraping teams, I thought, hey, lets see what ChatGPT can produce for me. Typed in "show me a python script that web scraps a URL then enters that data into an Access database"... Seconds later it pops out a nice little script. Looks like a good foundation to build off of. I have decided I need to closer monitor my kids' homework for similarities to ChatGPT's results...
170
Bean
ID: 12552510 Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 18:49
<168>I'm preparing the ballot for voting on whose fault it is. Need to ask Guru how to randomize the order of the candidates.
Congrats Skin. Grabbed the league by the horns right before the all star break and never looked back.
176
GO
ID: 288332716 Mon, Apr 10, 2023, 10:25
177
Tosh Dude
ID: 057721710 Mon, Apr 10, 2023, 13:02
Congrats skinneej
178
ttucowboy
ID: 31142221 Mon, Apr 10, 2023, 19:23
Congrats skinneej!
179
skinneej
ID: 73141110 Mon, Apr 10, 2023, 21:49
Thanks everyone! As predicted it was much tougher to repeat, and wasn't looking good for much of the season. Getting Booker back in Feb after missing a long stretch seemed to be the catalyst that helped my team start picking up steam. Sabonis was the clear MVP for me this year, but 1st round draft pick Brook Lopez gets my vote for best NBA comeback player as he led my team in 3s and blocks.
BTW Duff, pure coincidence on the last player pickup, just needed a guard eligible player that was for sure playing the last game haha.
Nice find there GO, never a bad time to throw on some old school J's music! If only those of us diehard fans could get them back together for one last tour...
180
WG
ID: 89402220 Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 14:29
Congrats skineej! Impressive win and b2b Championships! Gave it my best shot but getting only 47 games out of KD and very little from one of my keepers (Isaiah Jackson) made it tough... not that you and others also didn't face similar obstacles. Funny enough, Brook Lopez was a keeper of mine going into last year and I got a whopping 1 game out of him as he succumbed to injury on Opening Night.
Looking forward to trying to stop the 3 peat next year.
181
Guru
ID: 330592710 Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 15:58
Bean has asked me to run the draft pick lottery soon. So I'll plan to do that early next week - probably Tuesday morning, April 18.
182
Tree
ID: 4741579 Sun, Apr 16, 2023, 09:52
sorry for the late congrats - spent the last week traveling for work.
congrats! for a long time i thought i had a shot of winning the league in my first season, but then reality set in, and i was sunk.
again, congrats on a super season well managed!
183
Guru
ID: 330592710 Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 16:01
I'm still planning to run the draft lottery tomorrow. As a reminder, here are the odds of getting selected for the first pick for each of the lottery teams:
7th place 0.5% 8th place 1.0% 9th place 1.7% 10th place 1.8% 11th place 4.5% 12th place 4.5% 13th place 4.5% 14th place 7.5% 15th place 9.0% 16th place 10.5% 17th place 12.5% 18th place 14.0% 19th place 14.0% 20th place 14.0%
These percentages exactly replicate the odds used in the actual NBA draft lottery (for teams ranked 17th-30th).
184
Guru
ID: 330592710 Tue, Apr 18, 2023, 09:21
Only one team had demerits for falling below the GP minimum. PT's Pleasant Team drops three slots in the lottery odds. So this is the list (with related odds) that will be used for the lottery, to be held later this morning.
7 SANFORDORS 0.5% 8 Munson Mobsters 1.0% 9 Philly Busters 1.7% 10 Spida 1.8% 11 BB the Ball 4.5% 12 youngroman's Luschen 4.5% 13 KnicksFan 4.5% 17 PT's Pleasant Team 7.5% 14 Air Tosh 9.0% 15 Roto Guru20 10.5% 16 ttucowboy 12.5% 18 Fred's Team 14.0% 19 Weekend Over 14.0% 20 WWCBD 14.0%
185
Guru
ID: 330592710 Tue, Apr 18, 2023, 11:25
I got tied up in some other endeavors this morning, so I'm going to wait to do this right at 12 noon ET.
The first step is to generate multiple sets of random numbers from 1-14. The first four numbers from each set map to a specific team. As there are 1001 possible combination of four numbers pulled from 1-14, one specific combination results in a "do over" and the other 1000 are all assigned to lottery teams in proportion to their respective odds. 140 of those combinations are assigned to the bottom team, 140 to the second to bottom team, and so forth. Only 5 are assigned to the top ranked lottery team. This is exactly the same numerical process used by the NBA.
The first set of random numbers determines the team that gets the first pick. The second set determines the second pick (unless it's a duplicate, in which case we have a "do over"). The process continues until we have the top three draft picks assigned. Thereafter, teams follow in sequence according to their draft ranking.
For audit transparency, the random numbers are pulled from a routine at random.org, and I will have the results simultaneously emailed to several other league managers.
Once I apply the random numbers to determine the picks, I will post the results here. I will also upload and link the underlying spreadsheet with all of the details.
186
Guru
ID: 330592710 Tue, Apr 18, 2023, 12:08
Random numbers were generated at 12 noon, and audit copies were automatically emailed to Bean, Tosh, Youngroman, and ttucowboy.
Looks like I'll be looking to trade the #3 pick. I need better keepers and in addition am not at all certain that Robert Williams is keeper-worthy anymore either!
Clear keepers: McCollum, Portis, Butler, Wiggins. The rest ... not so good.
Anyway, would prefer a mid round pick and a solid younger keeper-level player in return. If any of you guys are looking at far too many keepers let me know. Not really interested in those on-the-edge players. Needs to be a solid player.
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