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Subject: Post from Don, SW COO Posted by: Don Mathis - [528412213] Fri, Sep 22, 13:49 Hey Gurupies, I’m baaack! It’s been awhile since I’ve posted to your boards, and for that I’m sorry. No really good excuse to offer, other than running a company, Naval service, my wife having a baby – you get the idea. Perhaps the only really good point to make here is that this summer has been a period of heavy internal focus at Small World – I think we fixed a bunch of big things, which at the end of the day is what you care most about. And hopefully our game performance over the past several months is indicative of these efforts. There are a number of outstanding issues which I know you guys haven’t forgotten about. But the reason I’m posting today is because of our Elite game initiative for Hoops. As most of you know by now, we are offering our first Small World Elite game for Hoops 2000/2001. It is legit – i.e., it is a Small World game – for those of you who have wondered. I’m writing to tell you a little about it. But first, some context and explanation behind “My Old Shoes” and this challenge Elite game. Way back in the bad old days of last Spring, we put into motion a number of changes to fix the recurrent problems plaguing our games – indeed, plaguing Small World overall. Perhaps the biggest of these was the fact that we didn’t pay enough attention to our audience. Small World was a company where a bunch of game fanatics built and operated games according to what they thought was important. We have focused enormous energy on becoming a company where our members, especially our loyal members, drive certain aspects of our strategy (especially when it comes to game play). We started listening better than we previously had, a not insignificant shift in company philosophy. This was a critical part of the growing up process, as I think of it, from a few young guys in a tiny New York apartment building games they loved, to a real company – one where many more people build games they love, but with the input and guidance provided by the members we serve. Soliciting feedback of all sorts from the Rotogurupies – without question, our most sophisticated audience – was part and parcel of this effort. I think we’ve held true to this new philosophy for several months now. I think many Gurupies would attest to this, at least those that have participated in our focus groups. Dave Hall himself has provided a great deal of highly valuable feedback as well, and I think our games have benefited as a result. Here’s one example of that process – we abandoned the plan for daily pricing in football following feedback directly from Dave. Furthermore, there were many “behind the scenes” changes that have taken place to prevent the kind of problems we’d experienced historically from occurring again. Did we resolve them all? No. But we’ve made progress. But despite these efforts, something was still missing. I felt we needed more feedback, Gurupie-style. As Dave knows, I began looking for a Rotogurupie to bring on staff here earlier this summer. Who better, I thought, to help us improve our act? Well, I found one – Jon Migdal, a.k.a. J-Smooth. And this brings us full circle to the Hoops Elite game. Jon was the person who came up with the idea of a challenge for the Elite game. We’d planned on launching a pay-based Elite game prior to Jon coming on board earlier this month, to be sure – you all are savvy enough to know that a pure-play Internet content company that relies on advertising sales alone does so at its peril. We need to find additional revenue streams to stay in business and keep offering our games. But it was Jon who brainstormed the challenge idea within days of his start date. And based on the response we’ve received already this morning, I can say that my instinct to hire a Gurupie was right! As for the game itself: you should already know that we invited top performers from all of our games to play, not just our Hoops games. Our thinking here was that the great players in our games tend to be great across sports, and we wanted to give them a chance to try their mettle at Hoops if they’d demonstrated their prowess at, for example, baseball. However, we may not have invited everyone that deserved to be! Our bulk email process is still, how shall I put this, improving. I believe that everyone who was invited deserved to be – if you disagree, email me directly. But I’m afraid we may not have reached everyone that should have been invited. If you, or someone you know of, should have been invited but wasn’t, let me know directly! We’ll research the situation, and get them an invite if warranted. As for the game itself – Dave is right, the functionality won’t be a whole lot different than the free game. But it is the group that you will be competing against – the elite – that will make game play more interesting than the free game. And of course, fewer people playing means that you will have a better shot at the prize pool (we’re giving away $10,000 in prizes for this game). Here’s one thing we’re expecting to see: if we get enough players for this – and based on this morning’s traffic, it looks like we will -- we’ll be able to have an independent market for the game (i.e., price movements won’t be tied to the free game). The independent pricing will make this the purest game on the Web, and we’re excited at the prospect of reaching that critical mass. So, sign up! See if you have what it takes to unseat J-Smooth! | ||||||
| 1 | biliruben ID: 3587722 Fri, Sep 22, 14:16 |
Congratulations on the baby front, Don! That's great. I can see where you are coming from regarding new revenue streams. I have always thought that I wouldn't mind paying a few bucks for a game run in a superior fashion. Given the time committment these games demand, I would pay for reliability before anything else. The prize money would be an added bonus. Don't play hoops, but may consider a variation next baseball season. | |||||
| 2 | Ender ID: 57472312 Fri, Sep 22, 14:18 |
As an employee, he is already unseated hopefully. I think we've been down that road before... ;-) All kidding aside, service has been greatly improved in the last several months. If players are going to pay for the game, the service will have to be exceptional. Paying players won't be very forgiving if this hoops season ends the way the lsat one did (those who were here remember). | |||||
| 3 | Don Mathis ID: 528412213 Fri, Sep 22, 14:21 |
Ender -- He is indeed unseated, as you say :) And by the way, you are 100% dead-on with the performance issue. Frankly, we could not have done this 4 months ago, because we couldn't have pulled off the performance for it. | |||||
| 4 | Chris ID: 248192214 Fri, Sep 22, 14:24 | lsat, eh Ender? That exam is very difficult from what I hear O English Nazi ;-) | |||||
| 5 | Chris ID: 248192214 Fri, Sep 22, 14:25 | BTW Don, as long as you're around...Sludge has been clamoring for an answer to the repricing issues in the baseball forum for about 4 months now. I think he would like to be acknowledged at the very least ;-) | |||||
| 6 | Ender ID: 57472312 Fri, Sep 22, 14:27 |
You got me :) Touche' Don, I forgot to say thanks in my other post. I do appreciate being able to see my standings accurately every morning now. In the big picture it is a little thing, but I like to know right where I stand after last night's action. | |||||
| 7 | Guru ID: 330592710 Fri, Sep 22, 14:34 |
Don, good to hear from you. First, we'd probably be more receptive to your sales pitches if you had followed through on some previous commitments for information. When the top dog at SW fails to deliver on his own promises, it's a bit tough to imagine that the customer service credo is sincere. Second, I must confess that while the concept of an elite game is intriguing, I fail to understand the benefits of this offering - other than the potential prize money (which we, not you, are providing!).
You also used to provide a couple of "wild card" roster slots, which could be filled with any position. How about bringing that feature back? I realize that last-minute programming considerations may limit the degree of game differentiation - although the trade allocation issue seems like a simple one. Bottom line - if you want the elite, and you want them to pay, then provide something that truly improves the game. So far, I don't see it. BTW, the hire of Jon Migdal does seem like a good move. Jon - we're all counting on you to make a difference! | |||||
| 8 | dgreds ID: 3242938 Fri, Sep 22, 14:38 |
Don, I am really disgusted by this post. You came here a long time ago asking for opinions and you never responded. You have a million valid excuses but we are still waiting for responses. Then, you magically find time so you can pitch your new game and make some extra money. If you gave us some answers then I think that more people might be willing to join your game. | |||||
| 9 | Willix ID: 1186209 Fri, Sep 22, 14:55 |
I posted this over on the football forum before I saw that Guru had set up this one as the reply center. I tend to agree with Guru Dave and dgreds for what it is worth. I believe Smallworld has made great strides over the last few months. The glitches have been held to a minimum and the speed of the site has been good (except for football today). Now I'm not sure about the Hoops Elite game. It sounds like a nice solicitation from you Don with this thread. What does it cost, $10 to play? It might be worth it if enough Gurupies play. I'm not sold on the idea yet. I will have to think it over some more before I decide. Let's see what others have to say first. | |||||
| 10 | walk ID: 104739 Fri, Sep 22, 14:56 |
Congrat's on the baby, Don. I have also seen vast improvements in service and stats updates from smallworld this baseball season. Of course, TODAY, coincidentally, smallworld baseball seems unusually slow and difficult. Incredibly ironic. Your elite game has good intentions, but I know I won't be playing it -- primarily for the reasons Guru stated above (pretty "frank," Dave). I am indeed playing hockey, and look forward to it, but I would be surprised if this is game is predicated upon the focus group data you collected earlier in August (which is not geo-representative since it only included NYers). dgreds does make a valid point about your presence and then lengthy absence after you tried to solicit our input. My guess is that your absence was family-related, and that is clearly more important, but we did not know, and clearly you do not have a reliable #2 man that you feel comfy assuming your role here in your absence. I look forward to continuing to play smallworld and to seeing what comes of your solicitation of gurupian feedback. - steve (walk)er | |||||
| 11 | Ref ID: 1442849 Fri, Sep 22, 15:21 | I echo posts 7-10. I will not be playing. | |||||
| 12 | deepsnapper ID: 3781598 Fri, Sep 22, 15:48 |
I guess I understand now why all the posts on the SW message board about problems with the Pro Pick'ems game and emails sent about early freeze cutoff times have been unanswered. Problems with that game have been ignored while the focus has been on putting out a "pay" game. When most other services are focusing on putting out more "free" games, Small World is charting a different course. Thank goodness CBS, Sandbox, CNNSI, FOX, Rotonews, Prime Sports and others too numerous to mention are concentrating on their "free" game market. You and your organization have gone a long way towards stabilizing the game environment of the Small World offerings, but you've still got a long way to go on customer service. Don, I wish you luck with this new "Elite" game, but I won't be playing. My $.02 Roy Jones a.k.a. deepsnapper | |||||
| 13 | Harkonnon ID: 4453220 Fri, Sep 22, 15:55 |
Have a few questions ! Not that I'm interested in your Elite Payday Play, but this seems to be another of these half-raw, half baked smallworld ideas. You mailed me to participate in this game for only "whatever you charge". - Since this special offer has reached almost anyone here, I would like to know the criteria for being tagged worthy ? A number will do for me (like top 100000 finish) - I'm from Germany (non US citizen) and so I'm not eligible to any prizes from smallworld (or other sites). You think I (or any other non-US or non-Canada resident) would sent you any bucks for a higher prize output, I can't collect? - same goes for Florida residents - same goes for Quebec residents - same goes for any person not 18 years old I think I get a grip of your definition of the word "Smallworld" ! Anyway a little answer would be welcome ! and to add a little sarcasm, I ended my boycott of smallworld for free. Almost anyone here can tell you, my reliability is by far better than that of smallworld servers, even in recent months. I invite you hereby to send me 10$ per team I register. I promise for that amount of money I would participate the whole season, with rare mental collapses at Freeze Time ! | |||||
| 14 | walk ID: 104739 Fri, Sep 22, 15:58 |
You are, without a doubt, the funniest fickin' person who ever posted on any of these boards ever. I am still laughing as I write this! This is like a "hall of fame" post. You Euro bastid, you. Too much!!! - walk | |||||
| 15 | Don Mathis ID: 528412213 Fri, Sep 22, 16:02 |
OUCH! Dave, what are you trying to say? I can't stand the suspense ... quit beating around the bush!!! Okay, I'll boil your comments down to two major points: Point #1: you're pissed that I dropped off the face of the planet. I did, sort of. We were still looking at your boards, still taking action on things we noted. But as regards to some of the other investigative stuff -- my early explorations led me to believe that it was going to take a lot more work to sort it all out. And frankly, I just didn't have the time. But you're right -- I did stop communicating, and I'm guilty as charged for it. All I can do is say, sorry. Point #2: the game seems like it'll be just the free game, and the limited, high-profile competitor aspect is not attractive enough. I hear you, with regard to the points you raised. I disagree about how attractive that type of higher-profile competition can be, but your underlying point is a valid one. So... After some quick checking, the game designers all agree that the idea of getting all of your trades at once is a very good one. Except for one thing -- if you had all 100 of your trades up front, you could use them all immediately to "game the game" and win the monthly prize that month very easily. And then you could pay several more times to enter the game, and win the monthly prize each time. Any ideas on how we could protect against that? If you've got a good solution for it (and we're gonna think about it too), please let me know asap. We need to know by Monday in order to get the code changes in on time -- we like the idea! -- Don | |||||
| 16 | walk ID: 104739 Fri, Sep 22, 16:06 |
Don. Some solutions to "gaming the game" if you go with an all-trades-up-front approach: 1) drop the monthly prize. True elite players could care less about anything other than the grand-poobah FINAL standings. If you want elite managers, montly awards will not be needed to pull them to your game. The quality of the game will. 2) or, trust your managers. If they want to game the system to win your monthly prize, then so be it. 3) restrict your invitational to the "true elite" managers you are really soliciting to. 4) Let Guru answer, he'll have some more technical suggestions...mine will always be "people- and management-based." - walk | |||||
| 17 | Don Mathis ID: 528412213 Fri, Sep 22, 16:15 |
Walk, thanks. Good suggestions -- we'll think about them! Thanks on the baby congrats... it is a wild thing, being a father. This is my first. | |||||
| 18 | KevinL ID: 10417811 Fri, Sep 22, 16:18 |
I think that managers using all trades early to win the month is not a problem. That is a strategy that should be allowed, if a manager so chooses. And it may encourage some players to play multiple entries. Likewise, if trades are given weekly, a manager could hold them all until the last month, and then use that strategy to win March or April. I think the major flaw in this game is, SW is marketing a pay-game to a market that has chosen SW because it is play a free-game. I wish SW well in this endeavor, as I do appreciate the free games. But I'm not quite good enough to gamble on the chance of winning big, when I can get the same value (entertainment & competition) for free. | |||||
| 19 | Catfish ID: 16521916 Fri, Sep 22, 16:20 |
There's a lot of people who fancy themselves elite players, and that leads to a lot of the joshing as well as the frequent outbursts of 'tude that we all enjoy on these boards. So setting up an elite arrangement, whether organized by the managers themselves in auto-divisions, or by your invitation to top managers to pay & play, sounds fine to me. What makes me not buy the pitch is that you emailed ME as one of your supposed 'elites'. I don't play hoops. I don't remotely qualify as an elite manager. I have just dragged my FS baseball team kicking and screaming into the rarefied air above 8000 WWR. Groucho Marx once said "I wouldn't join a club that would have me as a member." I can't imagine that real 'elite' managers would consider me quite what they had in mind. Sooooo Don, is this a blanket email to everyone on the SmallWorld list, thinly-disguised as an elite feel-good? How many people DID you email?? | |||||
| 20 | walk ID: 104739 Fri, Sep 22, 16:23 |
Don. Aha! First kid...Now you can appreciate why I went back and forth five times with Kelly at Smallworld trying to attend your firm's focus group last month but eventually could not because my kid was sick! It is a wild ride, especially if you are doing it in this town. Have fun... - walk | |||||
| 21 | Ref ID: 1442849 Fri, Sep 22, 16:36 | What strikes me as an odd coincidence is that SW's site had been pretty good the past several weeks--then today it sucks again and voila--there is Mr. Mathis ;) | |||||
| 22 | Don Mathis ID: 528412213 Fri, Sep 22, 16:41 |
Ref, what are you implying ... that when I communicate with the Gurupie boards, my stress adversely impacts our game performance? ;) Actually, please note that we fixed today's problems about 30 min ago. Turns out there was a networking problem between the Altheon switches and our Cisco router on the front end, induced when we did an upgrade last night. But anyway, Catfish: some answers for you. Out of our 2.3 million members, we invited 190,000. We did some research which shows that about half a percent of people mailed in an online promotion respond, and we needed at least 1,000 people to join this game for it to be viable. Happily, over 3,000 have expressed interest as of this afternoon. You know, there are about half a million people registered for baseball, out of which you are ranked 8,000. That sounds pretty good to me :) | |||||
| 23 | Richard ID: 1719313 Fri, Sep 22, 16:54 |
Thanks, but no thanks Don. I'm not interested in giving any of my money (even $10) to my fellow Gurupies. I was attracted to the SW games a couple of years ago for a few simple reasons: 1) SW offered a free fantasy sports game on the Internet. 2) SW presented a very open environment. I could see what my division mates were up to. I could see which players they liked and which they didn't. I could, and did, use this information to predict price changes. This was a big part of my enjoyment. I miss it. 3) SW offered a game that combined market-driven price changes and performance-driven points. It is a combination that has a good creative tension on how to best use trades (for points and/or for money). This year's security changes have taken the enjoyment I derived from point number 2 and paying for a game would take away point number 1. There won't be enough to keep me playing with points 1 and 2 taken away. Richard | |||||
| 24 | Chris ID: 158402013 Fri, Sep 22, 16:56 |
I'm ranked top 100...where's my invite? Just kidding, I don't even play basketball and wouldn't pay to play an online fantasy game anyway. Good luck in this endeavour though. As long as you continue to offer your free SmallWorld Baseball game, I'll come back every year... I think the repricing issue needs to be addressed if you want to earn back the respect of many Gurupies, of whom Sludge is the most prominent... | |||||
| 25 | KevinL ID: 10417811 Fri, Sep 22, 16:59 |
Don, While I can't argue that there are "half a million" registered, and I understand why you like to use that number, my LRV team (it's a contest we have here to get the Lowest Roster Value) has 2165 points and is ranked 262,266th, or in the top half. 2165 points is a good week, but a pretty pitiful season. So I'd have to guess that somewhere near half your registered teams have roughly 0 points. And I realize, this new pay-game is designed to reduce the number of inactive teams. Still, 8000 out of 250,000 is competitive. Top 3%, maybe that can even be called elite. Also, thanks for the quick openness about how many invitations were emailed! | |||||
| 26 | Pond Scum ID: 54420321 Fri, Sep 22, 17:09 |
As a business guy, here's what this sounds like to me: Step one - Start charging for a parallel game. Try and make it look more attractive. Step two - Start reducing the benefits of the free game to swing people over to the "Pay per view channel" Step three - et cetera Sounds good for SW revenue enhancement, not so good for us. We need to get real benefit for spending dollars. I don't see it. As for the prizes, the expected value for $10 committed if 3,000 players join is 33 cents. I think that is worse than the State lottery. You need more of a sliding scale linked to participation with much higher upside IMHO. Count me out. | |||||
| 27 | Mike D ID: 348302217 Fri, Sep 22, 17:30 |
Wasn't going to reply here, but I will. No thanks. | |||||
| 28 | Willix ID: 1186209 Fri, Sep 22, 17:32 |
Now that I read some post, I have a better understanding of my position. I probably will NOT play the "Elite" game. The others (Richard) made me realize why I came to SW in the first place a few years ago: It was free, and you could make money on your players like the stock market. I loved that aspect. Some friends and I here at work put a division together and have enjoyed the competition ever since. After the first football season I found Rotoguru and felt at home with other fantasy fanatics like myself. The main reason I stopped playing the Pay games was because I don't have the time to do it justice. If I pay, I then feel obligated to do more research and studying on top of what I already do which is too much now! Then it becomes my life and the stress factor grows. I spend enough time as it is on this stuff. I enjoy the games as they are now without having to pay. If I was more serious or fanatical, I might consider it. | |||||
| 29 | Guru ID: 330592710 Fri, Sep 22, 18:18 |
Don - A few thoughts: First, you can do a lot more than just say you're sorry. You can still deliver on your promises. However, your response suggests that you have no intention of doing that. Suffice it to say that many of us remain convinced that the "managers trading oddly" explanation was bogus. Your responses were superficial, unsubstantiated, and implausible (given the breadth of evidence to the contrary), and your assurances to get to the bottom of it were hollow. Your pitch for an elite game to eliminate the "odd trading" just doesn't fly, because we don't believe managers were actually trading oddly. Some trades were just being counted oddly. And until you provide evidence to the contrary (which you committed to do several times), we do not believe that the unusual price moves had anything to do with the irrational actions of the un-elite. I don't want to get overly testy here - well, maybe I do... - but we expect you to set the customer service tone. Your rhetoric is eloquent. Your delivery is,... well,... what we've come to expect. Don't tell us that customer responsiveness is a priority. Show us! And as you must certainly realize by now, Gurupies have VERY long memories! And very high ethical standards. OK, on to the "elite" game. In general, monthly prizes seem like something to appeal to the masses, designed to keep the level of interest high throughout the season. I can understand their role in the general game. But they seem totally out of place in something billed as an elite competition. This is partly for exactly the issue you raise: people vying for a monthly prize have different trading motivations than those in it for the long haul, and that tends to distort market price movements. If people have an incentive to try for a monthly prize, then they will make trades that would be silly for a full season campaign. And that seems to fly in the face of your desire to offer a "pure" market. True, rationing trades can ameliorate the impact, but some will just register now and conserve trades until the second half (as is currently being done for weekly prizes in baseball). So even with rationed trades, the same problem is present; it just takes a few months to manifest. Frankly, there is little I've seen here that suggests this is really an elite game. The overall number of baseball managers you mention are so severely distorted by the number of dormant teams, or teams accumulating trades for weekly prizes, etc. Those players who are truly "elite" will easily recognize the fallacy of that description. And 190,000 just doesn't sound very elite to me. I suspect the predominant screening device for "eliteness" will be that those who register have shelled out $10, so they'll probably stick with it for at least a few weeks. My strong recommendation is to drop the monthly prizes, and offer a much deeper list of "pure" prizes. If you had $5000 allocated for monthly prizes, then instead offer a much longer list of full season prizes. Give each of the top 250 finishers a $20 prize, for example. That gives the truly dedicated managers a realistic opportunity to double their money. To finish first in a game like this requires an incredible combination of skill and luck. There are probably only a couple dozen people who have the requisite skill, and they all realize the tremendous element that luck also plays. So a long-shot at a big prize isn't much of an incentive for most. A plausible chance at a modest prize might actually attract greater numbers - and keep alot more people involved throughout the year. It would also contribute to the purity of the game, since all competitors would be striving for a single, common objective. As you know, I have always been available to provide early feedback and honest reactions to your development ideas. I'm a little disappointed that you didn't avail yourselves of that "free" option earlier in this process, although it sounds like this idea may have gernimated at the 11th hour. But it's still only September. You still have plenty of time to get this right, and design an appealing elite game - if that's really your objective. | |||||
| 30 | _eXoR_ciST ID: 368332218 Fri, Sep 22, 18:33 | I think I finished about top 1000 in hoops last year and about 500 in hoops playoffs. When I got the email, I thought that I was special or something. Now that I found out that any Small World participant could get the invitation, even those that don't play hoops, I think that I will have to pass also. | |||||
| 31 | slimer ID: 2644430 Fri, Sep 22, 18:37 |
Don, if you want to keep managers from "gaming the game" each month, come up with a way to only let each person register one team the entire season. I'm not sure how you could do this since most people have more than one email address, but I am sure it could be done. On the other hand, I have never payed for a fantasy game and never will. | |||||
| 32 | Op ID: 48512218 Fri, Sep 22, 18:51 | You're a freakin' genius Guru. I know you have said it before, but what is the reason for not creating your own fantasy games? You know you could start the perfect game, as you did with the march madness, and only have your elite group of ?# users have access to it. | |||||
| 33 | Madman ID: 44633210 Fri, Sep 22, 19:10 |
One partial answer to limiting the attractiveness of Monthly prizes is to limit the number of monthly prizes any person can win to 1, regardless of the number of teams they enter. That's easy to verify -- don't write two checks to the same name. But I agree with the Guru -- monthly prize goals integrated into a larger game concept has always been unappealing to me. Mid-season makes sense, but a month-by-month prize is too frequent. I ironically think the plan will be successful not because it will actually draw out the best managers, but because this is a way for SW to start extracting some revenue for their service from loyal supporters. Calling someone elite will make them feel good, and if they like the game, why not spend $10? It's the flip-side of what these boards went through a few weeks ago. However, the idea that the Guru is espousing has some appeal to me -- a reasonably complex game design. My boycott of SW baseball this summer was much easier for me to continue because not only was there not evidence of improved customer service (go back to the threads from April and May and you'll see what I mean), but their game design was pedantic and uninspired. I believe I was vindicated in that belief with the triumph of Randro. Although I tend to eschew for-pay games, a small fee is something I would consider if the game design was truly intriguing. In other words, the luck factor that the Guru points out must be somewhat smaller and the strategical possibilities intriguing. And giving all managers trades in a one-shot deal at first is only the tip of the iceberg. | |||||
| 34 | Madman ID: 44633210 Fri, Sep 22, 19:23 |
One last point, Don. Your excuse that "my early explorations led me to believe that it was going to take a lot more work to sort it all out. And frankly, I just didn't have the time" is a crock. All you had to do was setup a temporary user-account for Sludge, and he could have done the rest. Or have your programmers export a copy of parts of the database and send it to him. I bet that would have taken less time than it took you to post all your messages to this forum. Or if Sludge didn't have the time, the Collective has many programmers and guys who would've been willing to take a few hours out of their lives to figure out the issues (didn't want to put you solely on the spot, Sludge ;-) ). Your company made a policy decision that the Collective's concerns were unimportant. Or at least less damaging than taking the steps to pursue the alternative. It's as simple as that. Honesty and straightforwardedness is the best policy around here. I see that your company hasn't learned that lesson yet. And the fact that you think good quality control takes too much of your precious company's time should scare the excrement out of any of Smallworlds supporters out there. | |||||
| 35 | Sludge ID: 20421222 Fri, Sep 22, 20:26 |
That's okay, Madman. I need the practice with SQL anyway. :) I do want to chime in on the monthly prizes vs. a single alotment of trades, however. Personally, I see nothing wrong with them coexisting. The solution, to me, seems simple. After deciding on a certain level of profit (% of entry fees after the first $10,000), put the remainder into a prize pool for the season-long prizes. As the number of entries increases throughout the year as people keep paying to try and win a monthly prize, so does the amount of money awarded to end-of-the-season winners. (I envision a little "The Grand Prize is up to $XXX", "First Prize is up to $YYY", etc... daily updates. I like Guru's idea of top 250 getting, at least, some money back.) Everytime you begrudge those who are entering late just trying to win a monthly prize, you can then remember that they're increasing the amount of money you are going for. It also encourages people to keep registering throughout the season since they'll have a realistic shot at a monthly prize when they get to start out with 100 trades to use how they wish. No way I would spend $10 even after the first week if I knew there would be no way for me to generate $$$ quick. I'm a statistician, and know very little about business, but it makes sense to me. Feel free to poke holes in it. One that I can see is that I may be vastly underestimating the numbers of people who would register late. | |||||
| 36 | Guru ID: 330592710 Fri, Sep 22, 21:35 |
As a practical matter, I can't imagine a lot of people plunking down multiples of $10 just to chase a monthly prize. If they do, then their odds are great decreased, since they have a lot of competition. And if there aren't a lot, then who cares. In a free game, all you need is some idle time to assemble an attempt at a weekly prize. It's quite another to ante up $10 for the privilege. I just think that large monthly prizes undermine the concept of an "elite" game. And it certainly bastardizes the purity of the market. | |||||
| 37 | allhair allstars ID: 416123012 Fri, Sep 22, 21:53 |
Guru, I know this isn't a terribly relevant post (what else is new), but I'd just like to mention that your posts in this thread are exactly the type of thing that makes a lot of us folks Gurupies! I remember being impressed when you lambasted SW for that ridiculous article about an "overpriced" Shaq, and again when you mentioned your thoughts about switching from SW to some other fantasy format. But these latest events and your response really take the cake. Your honest critique of the "Elite" game is right on the money, and beautifully stated. Your dedication to improving the SW fantasy experience for everyone is truly commendable in my book. At this point, SW is more an aid for me to hang out on the boards than the boards are an aid for my SW experience. I'm not willing to pay SW to play a free game, but I'd gladly pay for access to RotoGuru.com. Thanks for everything and please excuse the gushiness. | |||||
| 38 | KnicksFan ID: 9892221 Fri, Sep 22, 22:00 |
sounds to me like you're asking the Gurupies to do your job for you, Don. How about paying the gurupie who comes up with the system that you decide to use for the elite game? Also, it seems like most gurupies who've responded are not going to play the elite game. Since the gurupies are the only elite players there are, i wonder who's gonna be left. | |||||
| 39 | The Bandwagon ID: 24821821 Fri, Sep 22, 23:01 |
Off the main subject slightly, I agree with RICHARD's post #23. SW football is less enjoyable for me this year. Not being able to see your opponents salary cap, and trades remaining, suck! I really enjoyed tracking my opponents trades and salary cap to see how I was stacking up. I considered that part of my strategy. With that taken away, I have less interest in the FB game. I agree, not seeing your opponents moves until after the freeze is great, but let us see each others remaining trades, and salary cap. Sorry for switching subjects, but I wanted to vent my frustrations while someone was listening. I'm still undecided on the elite game. | |||||
| 40 | clank ID: 547422719 Sat, Sep 23, 00:07 |
I apologize for the length of this post in advance. I should send it directly to Don, but I felt everyone should have a chance to comment on it. Don, I too have received the invite. If I wasn't on these boards then I might be interested. Personally, I don't want to pay for something I can play for free. There are plenty of sites that are free. I will say they don't offer the same style game you do, but games I play and enjoy. OK to the main event. 1. The "elite" game You have not defined in either the email or your message what elite is or how you arrived at it. If it is a hoops game, then have hoops players involved. If a baseball or hockey player wants in, then they have to earn it in hoops. I would not expect to be in a hockey elite game having only "playing" the hoops mid-season game. 2. How to define the "elite" players Depending how many players you want in the game, for numerical purposes we will say 1000, invite the appropriate number. These people should be those that finished the highest in the league last year. There will be no multiple teams, one person one team. 3. The game differences There should be a difference between the free game and the elite game. Last year during the hoops season, I asked about the possibility of having all your trades at once. From what I was told by other players is that you did this before. From a business standpoint, not smart. People use their trades and don't come back to your site. In an "elite" game this might work. There was a week last year where in three days, three stud forwards went down. Hill and Webber were two of them, I don't remember the third. Well this all happened on consecutive days. Nobody had any trades left after the second injury. The boards were full of everyone complaining. An "elite" game would solve this problem if the coach has been smart with their trades. The team that a person has in the "elite" league is not eligible for the free game. So the prizes in each league are separate. For some they may not like this as they have to manage two or more teams. Now most gurupies manage more than two teams, so this shouldn't be a problem. Another thing that might be fun would to add say five emergency trades. You can use the trade anytime (compiling with the roster freeze) you want. The catch is that is cost you X amount of points. The repricing should be the same as the regular game. This makes it more intriguing. 4. Late season "Call Up" or next years "Rookies" At the All-Star break, the top 100 in the regular game have the chance to replace the bottom 100 in the "elite" game. The point and prize difference will need to be presented so the player has an informed descion. Of course you are still only allowed one team in the "elite" game. At the end of the season the top 500 in the regular game replaces the bottom 500 in the "elite" game. 4. Prizes Most "elite" players don't care about weekly or monthly prizes. Yes I know, a couple of extra bucks in my pocket is nothing to sneeze at. But I offer an alternative, instead of weekly or monthly prizes, what about this idea. The top 100 don't have to pay for the next season. The final prize is $1,000. There are another $1,000 worth of prizes to be given out. With these numbers here is what we have: 1000 players @ $10 each = $10,000, subtract 100 players @ $10 each = $1,000, $1,000 final prize and $1,000 misc prizes. This ends up as $7,000 in the pocket. It might not seem like much but think of the page hits and banner-clicks. What I am trying to say is make the "elite" game different enough and selective enough to be worth it. Don't be using this as a testing ground to see if you can turn all your games into pay for play. Thank You, clank P.S. Congrats on the baby. | |||||
| 41 | Ref ID: 5848718 Sat, Sep 23, 09:51 | I graduated college with honors--yet everytime I read one of those posts by Guru--I feel stupid :( | |||||
| 42 | Ref ID: 5848718 Sat, Sep 23, 09:55 |
Btw, is this what they mean by a sell-out ;) (referring to j-smooth) Seriously, I think it's great that they hired a gurupie. I mean they should hire several of them--including Dave as much as we do for them. | |||||
| 43 | Beta Alpha Sigma ID: 18847110 Sat, Sep 23, 11:15 |
After skimming through this-there is only one conclusion. This game is a SCAM. 190,000 people an elite game?!?!? give me a break. maybe 10,000 or even less but 190,000. I've got four top one hundred finishes in six tries in SW under my belt and when I got the invitation-my first thought was cool-I'm in the elite. But come to realize so are 189,999 other people. that's bogus. This game is just another chance for SW to make some bucks. Not to create a more competitive games for its users. The game in itself sounds boring. With that note-Don, the changes you've made in SW football this year-suck. I would chose a better word if I could but they really do suck. I concur with Richard. Not seeing another person's teams-even in your own division is boring. There will be thousands of races that come down to the last week in divisions and now they cant properly diversify teams because they cant see the other. That just one of many setbacks because of the changes that have been made in gameplay. It wouldn't hurt anyone to change that and go back to the old way at some point in the season. It makes the game more fun and actually forces the 'serious' competitors to spend more time on your sites. My friends and I would wait 'patiently' sunday morning before the deadline as we watched who we picked up before the roster freeze. Also, why not put a clock on your website so we know exactly how far away the freeze is so nobody gets caught. I had a friend who has played for three years get caught because he made a trade at 12:01 in week 1. with all of that said-I will not be playing the supposed 'elite' game. Im down to one sport a year in SW-thats football. And youll be lucky if i play that gain. I have found the Swirve game much more appealing this year. and ill be taking my division competitors with me. | |||||
| 44 | The Pink Pimp ID: 406421522 Mon, Sep 25, 00:59 |
Don, Count me as an out for any reasonable type of "elite" cash prize game type you come up with. I am not here to make money, why do you assume that I want to? If a cash prize was what I wanted I'd already be in another site's system. Let me give you another idea for an additional revenue stream though. One that has the potential to reach every single one of your managers, not just a limited number in an "elite" game. For now I'll call this idea "ad free access." In your current free model you rely heavily on ad revenue to offset costs. I don't know if you get paid based on ad viewing, ad click-through, or a combination of both. But I'm curious what you make off of all the page hits that you get for each manager that plays a full season and checks in daily. Not that I want you to tell me what that number is, but once you know it (and you should already) why not try the following. Let's sat that "D" is the amount of ad revenue generated by an average manager per season. Determine what you think a fair compensation for the loss of all that ad revenue would be and lets call that number "C". "C" might not necessarily be equal to "D" but could be 1.5 * "D" or 2 * "D" etc. As long as "C" is a reasonable number I would be willing to consider paying for Small World games if I could access my teams via quick loading pages that contained no banner or pop up ads. I don't want a new game with separate prices but I would consider paying you for the ability to manage my teams without the clutter, delay, and distraction caused by ads. If you put the paying user database on a dedicated server with faster access then that would make it an even more attractive option. In short, I might pay for a higher quality of "ad free access" to your games, but I will never pay an entry fee for any cash prize kind of league. I'm sure that there are plenty of folks out there with 28.8 & 56k modems that might be willing to pay a nominal amount for faster, better access to their teams. Ideally, of course, you should already be doing everything you can to streamline download times and provide quick access to the free site. And you should continue to do this. However, I realize that under your present ad driven revenue model you have to make tradeoffs that affect page download times and site access. But if you eliminate the tradeoffs, the fluff, the ads, and the pop-ups from the team screens, then I bet you could make them load pretty damn quick. I might even pay you for that as long as what you were charging was a reasonable nominal fee. Hey, you'd even get all of my revenue up front at the beginning of the season instead of getting it in dribs and drabs as I click on ads throughout the year. And you'd eliminate the possibilty that revenue from my team would disappear if I dropped out of the game. But I suppose if you can't trust us with all of our trades at the beginning of a season, then we might be unwise to trust you with all that revenue at the beginning of a season also ;-) Now that the "ad free access" idea is on the table let me ask a quick question about the "elite" game model. You said that, "We need to find additional revenue streams to stay in business and keep offering our games." O.K. I'll take that for what its worth for now but please help me out a bit with the numbers for a minute.
This may be a new revenue stream but it looks like a negative revenue stream to me. Or at least it will be negative until the number of paying managers is expanded until the additional fees offset the added costs of the elite game's programming, and administration. However, all of this discussion of alternate revenue streams ignores one key point. Your primary focus should be on building the best possible fantasy game on the web. If you do that then your revenue streams should take care of themselves. If you develop the best games and provide the best user experience then you will be in the best position to offer your games as a "value added" feature to portals and other content providers. In my opinion your mission should be to build the best sports games on the web. Maybe once you build the best games around then you can consider charging players for some of them. I for one don't think that you are there yet, do you? The Pink Pimp | |||||
| 45 | Motley Crue ID: 41741212 Mon, Sep 25, 10:22 |
I won't play the Elite Basketball game, because I don't want to waste $10 to lose when I can lose for free on regular SW Hoops. With that said, I am a little irritated by this whole concept. It is completely obvious to me that it is not a special, different, or new game. It is the same damn game we play for free every year, only not free. When you solicit almost 200,000 people to pay you for a service, it is obviously about the money, first and foremost. Your e-mail was very misleading in this aspect: it makes the recipient seem like they are some kind of fantasy master. Coming to these boards and posting messages telling us the truth about how the game isn't really going to be any different may seem smart to you, Don, but it seems like a wasted effort to me. There are still 189,000 or so people out there that don't know they really aren't "fantasy elite" because they don't read these boards. So, while you have placated us a little by being honest with us, I don't think anyone here buys for one minute the idea that this game is going to actually be a superior product compared to what Small World already offers. Better prizes? Sure. But who will pay for the risk to win them? Not me, and I hope not alot of others either. An elite fantasy game would be great; come on back and let us know when you actually have one. And on a side note, I think it needs to be pointed out that your maintenance of the Brazilian Football game has been piss poor. I realize it is a schooner in the vast SW Armada, but for crying out loud if you are going to start a game, at least have a few moderators and technical people there daily. I haven't heard from the moderator on the English site for a couple of weeks now, and the game is definitely still missing points from at least one match that I know of (Check out our soccer boards, Brazilian Football thread). Thanks for reading through this. I still love Small World football, and as long as you don't start in with daily repricing on that, I will ALWAYS play and click your silly ads. //MC | |||||
| 46 | allhair allstars ID: 447393016 Mon, Sep 25, 13:53 | Don, where are you? | |||||
| 47 | Species ID: 58412510 Mon, Sep 25, 14:23 |
I am as anxious as you are to hear from Don on the various points above, Guru's comments in post #29. I also sent him another copy of my never-replied-to email from May 17th, along with more up-to-date comments.... It's only Monday, but any significant delay or another disappearance and all of the accusations made here will be proven true on a de-facto basis. | |||||
| 48 | Species ID: 58412510 Mon, Sep 25, 14:24 | ooooops. That should read "Guru's post #29 in particular". Guess I should actually READ the edit stuff before posting. Ugh. | |||||
| 49 | Don Mathis ID: 528412213 Mon, Sep 25, 15:32 | I'm not far ... I'm compiling the ideas above for review here at SW | |||||
| 50 | Don Mathis ID: 528412213 Mon, Sep 25, 15:32 | And Species, that goes for your email too... | |||||
| 51 | Guru ID: 330592710 Mon, Sep 25, 18:57 | Don has posted an explanation of the baseball repricing anomalies at the baseball forum. | |||||
| 52 | Madman ID: 44633210 Mon, Sep 25, 19:04 |
pp Those are two fascinating ideas. The second (more revenues, less profits) has become an altogether too popular internet company practice. But I bet that SW's strategy here is sound. And, I should point out, that if fewer than 1K managers signed up, they would effectively be in with the rest of the SW universe, so there would have been little, if any, extra over-head. All-in-all, a potentially-profit winning gamble since more than 1K managers will likely sign up. By mentioning the hypothetical number 1K, they were trying to shoot low, make it look like they weren't turning a profit (or a chunk of the winnings, whichever way you look at it), and simultaneously making everyone think they were more elite than they really are. 1K is just the number that they said they had to have to warrant a separate run through the pricing formula (i.e., any significant overhead expenditures). To your pay for no ads idea, that's fascinating. I, for one, would consider that. And, even if you planned on turning a big profit (C>>D), this would make a great sales pitch . . . Normally, I eschew for-pay sites. But that's a great way to sell it to me. For that reason, I hope internet companies don't start getting into that idea ;-) . . . | |||||
| 53 | Ref ID: 22851716 Tue, Sep 26, 17:02 | PP, they haven't capped it at 1000. From what I read, they needed at least 1000 for it to go. I also remember reading that there were over 3000 entries the first day alone. That's quite a bit of positive revenue stream for very little increased effort on their part. | |||||
| 54 | Guru ID: 330592710 Tue, Sep 26, 17:07 | There were over 3000 people who submitted their email address to receive notification when the game was launched. That doesn't mean there will be 3000 registrants. | |||||
| 55 | The Pink Pimp @Fry's ID: 108132618 Tue, Sep 26, 18:14 |
Even if Small World gets 10,000 entries who spend $10 per team that's only $90,000 after prizes are given out to work work with. That $90,000 now needs to cover all game costs. So we are talking wages and benefits for perhaps one person. After all the taxes and deductions they might be lucky to clear $60,000 during a hoops season. How significant a revenue stream is that in New York city? ( At least I think that's where their offices are located.) I'm not saying that they can't make money off of this, they just might do that. I still feel that they are getting off track by venturing into the pay game arena right now. In my opinion they have other issues that are of higher importance such as improving their game designs, adding division message boards, and bolstering their credibilty in the eyes of users. | |||||
| 56 | Don Mathis ID: 528412213 Tue, Sep 26, 18:42 |
Well, I've run the pay game ideas mentioned above (there are a number that I really like) up the flag pole here, and unfortunately, our Tech group has shot them down -- too much work in the queue now to implement them. Sorry gents, I thought there were some really good ideas there. For what it's worth, we're capturing them all in a document, and giving ownership to the game design group here ... we'll look at them again as the next crop of games comes along. -- Don | |||||
| 57 | deepsnapper ID: 404592723 Sat, Sep 30, 13:49 | BUTT | |||||
| 58 | beastiemiked ID: 145191710 Sun, Oct 01, 00:45 |
Don't feel like reading every post above because I will not pay for a fantasy sports game, period. The reason I'm posting is because i just took at the prizes for hoops and to my surprise they suck. Yes i know the game is free, but look at the prizes last year, a trip to the finals, with top ten getting awesome memorabilia, and other top 100 finishers getting a computer game. I'm assuming that the amount of SW users has increased in the past year, thus allowing for more revenue for SW. So why the sucky prizes. A trip to the hall of fame inductions(nothing compared to the Finals), top ten getting a digital camera(gurantee you that every person would rather have a signed photo of Jordan, last years 3rd place prize), and top 100 getting a SW cap(I mean really who is going to wear this around). The lesser prizes mean 1 thing to me. They want people to be appealed to their "elite" game. I've enjoyed playing SW for 3 years now but this is ridiculous, I am really close to not even playing. The only reason i would play is because I love the competition on these boards, you guys are awesome. | |||||
| 59 | Ref ID: 1442849 Mon, Oct 09, 15:51 | How will the layoff of 1/3 of your staff affect the game? | |||||
| 60 | deepsnapper ID: 404592723 Sat, Oct 14x, 07:31 |
Don, Thanks for responding back to my email so quickly. Too bad no one else on your staff has since then. I posted a follow up with team details and the like w/o any acknowledgement or response from your staff since. I know it's only been a couple of weeks, but duh? | |||||
| 61 | AdMaN ID: 354521018 Tue, Nov 07, 14:04 |
BUTT wonder if he still exists. -AdMaN | |||||
| 62 | Up ID: 12050819 Tue, Jan 08, 2002, 19:53 | BUTT | |||||
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