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Subject: Voluntary Payment Poll Posted by: Guru - [330592710] Tue, Feb 20, 13:44 The following poll is a first step is assessing possible ways to fund the costs associated with producing RotoGuru.com. Assume that any payments made under this approach would be strictly voluntary. General feedback would be regularly provided so that everyone knows the current financial score. All site features would remain free and open, and the site would exist pretty much as it does currently. A secure online payment facility would be set up (probably using PayPal) which would accept credit card payments. Please be as honest as you can. Your answers are anonymous. I want to get an accurate appraisal of the viability of this approach. To help you frame your response, here are some figures: Server costs currently run about $5000 per year, which equates to roughly $100/week, or $470 per month. In the past two weeks, 8705 messages have been posted under 562 different user names. 136 of the names had only one message posted. At the other end, the top 100 posters had an average of 60 message posted over the 2 weeks, or about 4-5 per day. A total of 150 users posted at least 15 messages over the period (one per day). In the past, I have estimated that the number of lurkers (never posting) is in the range of 400-500, but this is a difficult count to get an accurate handle on. If 100 people were willing to voluntarily contribute each month that they are active, an average monthly donation of about $5 would be required. When annualized, this sounds like a big number. When compared to the daily cost of a cup (or two) of coffee, it seems reasonable. But you will have to be the ultimate judges of relative value, and of willingness to pay. With that as background, here's the poll: | ||||||
| 1 | YankeesRule ID: 299302812 Tue, Feb 20, 14:02 | If you need a service, try here Amazon.com Honor System | |||||
| 2 | YankeesRule ID: 299302812 Tue, Feb 20, 14:50 | And it's free too! | |||||
| 3 | Raise the Roof ID: 13012019 Tue, Feb 20, 15:35 | It is apparent and obvious that not everyone is willing/is able to make a monthly donation, so maybe there could be some sort of benifit for doing so? For instance, contributers would have their names entered into a drawing for some prize at the end of the year, or maybe even just simple things like having your 'gurupie name' reserved on the boards (and maybe even have it show up in bold or allow for the use of a favorite saying underneath it), etc etc. Just some ideas... | |||||
| 4 | slimer ID: 9150216 Tue, Feb 20, 15:44 | i agree, some sort of incentive (small) may help | |||||
| 5 | Guru ID: 330592710 Tue, Feb 20, 15:53 |
YR, I looked into the Amazon Honor System. While it costs nothing to register, it is certainly not free. They charge 15% of each transaction, plus $.15. That means that if you donate $1, I would receive only $0.70. A $5 payment would net $4.25. For transactions under $15, PayPal charges only $0.30. That still nets only $.70 for a $1 gross payment, but for any higher amount, the fee is less. | |||||
| 6 | Guru ID: 330592710 Tue, Feb 20, 16:00 |
Early returns look promising. Some sort of incentive system is possible, and RTR makes some good suggestions. | |||||
| 7 | BoNkA ID: 35744138 Tue, Feb 20, 16:10 |
RTR, there shouldn't be a prize of any sort. What we are getting, we should really be paying for anyways. Guru gives a lot of his time to this site and has TONS of sartibles and other statistical resources to use to your advantage(not that I use them, I just use the schedule and the forums). Basically it should be a pay-up and say thank you to Guru type of deal. Well, thanks Guru. I'm willing to give $2 a month, though it seems like too little, $24 a year will help a bit and I'm sure he won't turn it down. -BoNkA | |||||
| 8 | Klaus E ID: 4310141417 Tue, Feb 20, 16:11 |
How about setting up a 'contributor's division' with some prizes... and I'm still for some sort of exclusivity in the services. Like a 12hr delay on the msg board/SW stats for non-contributors. But the line between adding services for contributors and annoying the non-payers is extremely thin, I know. | |||||
| 9 | YankeesRule ID: 299302812 Tue, Feb 20, 16:15 | Sorry Guru. I suggested that because of my quick order status w/ Amazon. All I have to do is click donate and it withdraws from my account. I'll look into paypal but for now, gonna have to change my vote to "Nothing, but only because I would/could not make payments online." | |||||
| 10 | YankeesRule ID: 299302812 Tue, Feb 20, 16:18 | Good news! I just signed up with PayPal, so put me down for $5. | |||||
| 11 | Raise the Roof ID: 13012019 Tue, Feb 20, 16:21 | BoNkA, you and I know how valuable Rotoguru.com is, but others may not. Hopefully, with a little added incentive, more people will contribute... | |||||
| 12 | 6-9 With The Afro ID: 59121610 Tue, Feb 20, 16:23 | I just checked the box on my tax returns donating $3 to Rotogur...ooops...that's the presidential election contribution box -doh! (where's my eraser)... | |||||
| 13 | Eville ID: 29017810 Tue, Feb 20, 16:44 |
An idea with Paypal. I think you still get $5 bonus when you refer someone new. Have the people who are going to sign up hold off and you can pocket some cash from Paypal. I sell on Ebay and have made quite a bit off of referals. Also you only have a charge if you set up a business account. To lessen the fee I would pay annually. It would take a smaller percent that way. | |||||
| 14 | azdbacker ID: 230212320 Tue, Feb 20, 16:51 |
To put a dollar ammount on the worthiness of this site is probably difficult for many of us. I probably be willing to pay up to $10 a month, although I am quite sure I get more use than that out of this site. I personally check this site no less than 5 times a day, and normally much more. This site and the SmallWorld site, plus the scoreboards are about the only thing I use my computer for, and I probably spend 2-6 hours a day on line. That means I probably spend about 100 hours a week utilizing your site. 10 cents an hour seems pretty paltry to me. I would also be for some minor incentives, including exclusive divisions and small prizes - and some membership only features, like the sartibles. As I continue to grow in my new employment as a securities broker, and become more successful, I would certainly be willing to pay more. | |||||
| 15 | Twarpy ID: 190521414 Tue, Feb 20, 17:06 | Azdbacker, you spend more than 14 hrs a day on this site;)? | |||||
| 16 | Lou ID: 270392611 Tue, Feb 20, 17:20 | that is mad hardcore. | |||||
| 17 | Perm Dude ID: 331181719 Tue, Feb 20, 17:52 |
Twarpy, he posts under a number of different names, including Lou, PHANTASY STARS, Supersonica, What About Bob (when feeling particularly puckish), and Joey Lawrence (woh!) ;) | |||||
| 18 | azdbacker ID: 230212320 Tue, Feb 20, 17:55 | lol, PD. Sorry, that should have been 100 hrs/ month, not a week. | |||||
| 19 | DR Stars ID: 4211161321 Tue, Feb 20, 18:27 |
How about a discount if you make a yearly payment, I tell you that's probably the way I would do it, I'm not familiar with paypal or any other internet payment system, since I don't live in the US and it's hard to coordinate the S&H so I rarely buy anything on the internet, if I paid for the ESPN subscriptiona couple of years ago, I'd pay 40 bucks for this site for sure. The prizes don't need to be giveaways, they can be little differences that catch the eyes of those that haven't contributed, it may also serve as a way to get the lurkers or newbies interested in contributing for the gurupie cause. p.e. Why isn't my name in Colors? or Why can't I put my name in the gurupie standings and stats? When they get the answer, they might then contribute to the site. One last thing, maybe when things get better financially, the top gurupies can get free membership for a few months or a season. Something to keep in mind is the difference between those of us that only play for example hoops, from those that play everything, and therefore use the tools and forums all year... Sorry for the long post, but I'm just trying to help to keep this wonderful site free and running. | |||||
| 20 | dz77 ID: 1410081 Tue, Feb 20, 18:37 |
Wow, a lot of respondents saying they would but they can't make payments on-line. People have GOT to try out paypal.com. While they do require you do submit a credit card and approve a bank account (which some people are nervous about, but I had no problem with...), I can assure everyone that paypal is the best and most reputable CC/money transfer system that exists on-line. I've been using PayPal for a year and a half now, and never had any problems that couldn't be resolved by a quick call to Customer Serivice. As a heavy eBay seller (10+ transactions a day), paypal has made my life much more convenient. That and the fact that you get $5 for signing up - AND, if Guru refers you, he gets $5 as well! Not a bad deal... -dz77 | |||||
| 21 | azdbacker ID: 230212320 Tue, Feb 20, 19:22 | Well, 72 respondents so far say they would be willing to do $5 or more per month. That's $4320 a year right there, and easily the 5000 if the others that said they'd do less would contribute the ammount they put down ($1-$4). Doesn't look to me like it should be a problem, as long as the Gurupies would actually pony up what they've said they would. Good news:) | |||||
| 22 | Gary ID: 381157822 Tue, Feb 20, 23:52 |
Hello, I know it has been awhile since I have posted but I have always checked in on the boards on a weekly basis be it Baseball, Football, or other. I know that this site has enabled me to form friendships with people of like interest as well as informed and educated. What most have forgotten is that this site has grown over the years and the participents that contribute verys with the seasons. I think if Guru made his site a pay site that he could compete with others and be very a top notch paysite. The fact that he is asking our opinion on this matter only goes to show why we as Gurupies should go outta our way to help Guru keep this site free. Allowing for this site to be accessed by "newbies" at no cost. Hopefully they would become part of the Gurupies class and regonize the value of this site and would want to contribute. I don't think we should be rewarded for contributing but if Guru believes we should good for him but it should be his decision. We as Gurupies have shown our appreciation to Guru before with no benefit of reward being given before and I know it will happen again cause Gurupies are a caring and giving closenit group. Sorry about the "Walk" about but I believe this had to be said. Gary | |||||
| 23 | Willix ID: 51442717 Wed, Feb 21, 00:13 |
Don't worry Guru, we'll keep you going! This is what I recommended all along. However, I know it is probably easier for me to give compared to others. I remember those college days 10 years ago when I didn't have much "extra" cash. I'd be willing to give $10 a month, but I'd do one yearly payment. I know I drop that much going out drinking during the weekend or taking a girl to dinner. Seems like a small price to pay for the enjoyment I receive on this site! | |||||
| 24 | RMBees ID: 81462020 Wed, Feb 21, 07:57 | Heartily support plan to subscribe to RotoGuru. Certainly am willing to pay an annual fee for this most valuable site(although my WWR does't reflect it). Question- What is projected viability of SmallWorld? SW is the only fantasy site I devote any time to. If SW can't hold on what are the alternatives? | |||||
| 26 | fred ID: 26141219 Wed, Feb 21, 09:46 | What about a student rate?? | |||||
| 27 | Baldwin ID: 25440222 Wed, Feb 21, 10:03 |
RMBees Gurupies are well represented and expert at a host of Sandbox, Swirve, Grandslam Baseball and other internet fantasy sports sites. You don't really believe internet sports is ever going away? You don't believe we won't play them do you? | |||||
| 28 | Baldwin ID: 25440222 Wed, Feb 21, 10:10 |
I'm very in favor of keeping it voluntary and putting those names who have at least contributed some minimum payment in bold or something, some pat on the back. Keeping it voluntary is essential I feel to keep the fresh influx of new blood coming. You will always have old-timers dropping out as they realize just how much time they have thrown down the fantasy sports hole. Get the new guys addicted to the site and they'll eventually shell out the dough. | |||||
| 29 | RMBees ID: 81462020 Wed, Feb 21, 10:10 |
Baldwin Let me rephrase: What is the probabilty of SW not surviving? All the ad based dot coms are having a rough time. I am not familiar with other NBA fantasy with the same format as SW. | |||||
| 30 | Baldwin ID: 25440222 Wed, Feb 21, 10:13 | Should it ever get to the point that a fantasy sports site can't survive without pay-for-play the most popular ones will be the survivors. SW has 600,000 baseball teams entered a year. | |||||
| 31 | Valkyrie ID: 9047923 Wed, Feb 21, 10:21 | OK Guru- just post the address- you will be surprized how much you collect. | |||||
| 32 | Chris ID: 54499 Wed, Feb 21, 10:46 |
hey dz, keep in mind that many people who put would not/could not are high school students like myself without a bank account or credit card. And believe it or not, some of us are poor and don't need to be spending our money on fantasy sports ;) Not that I don't appreciate this site or Dave Hall and all the information he makes available, but I could/would not pay. | |||||
| 33 | Cornell AllStar ID: 5661130 Wed, Feb 21, 10:52 |
In terms of people not paying not being allowed to be in the Gurupie standings... I feel that is a horrible move. Believe me when I say, I WANT to pay, but I'm simply unable. Maybe when I graduate from here and move on to a (hopefully) nice six figure job, It would be no problem, but as for right now I can barely afford a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, let alone paying for fantasy sports. | |||||
| 34 | Lou ID: 270392611 Wed, Feb 21, 11:22 | Aren't you guys gonna feel stupid when you pay the 10 bucks and others don't have to pay and yet they still get the same services? I know, I Know, deep down in your heart you will know you a good snurupie and paid your dues. | |||||
| 35 | azdbacker ID: 230212320 Wed, Feb 21, 11:26 |
Now exactly 100 people saying they would pay $5 or more per month. That's an even $500/month and $6000/year. I would take that as a resounding 'yes'. :) | |||||
| 36 | Lou ID: 270392611 Wed, Feb 21, 11:30 | Why doesn't GURU just say how much it costs already so we don't have to guess what the MAGIC number is. | |||||
| 37 | KevinL ID: 291351612 Wed, Feb 21, 11:34 | Why doesn't LOU read the top of the post, where Guru said, "Server costs currently run about $5000 per year, which equates to roughly $100/week, or $470 per month."? | |||||
| 38 | YankeesRule ID: 299302812 Wed, Feb 21, 11:39 | Lou, this forum isn't your beatch like the SW ones. Excuse me for the lack of eloquence but I was kinda ticked off at him. | |||||
| 39 | Lou ID: 270392611 Wed, Feb 21, 11:45 | you hate me? i love you. | |||||
| 40 | wizard808 ID: 22556517 Wed, Feb 21, 11:52 |
lou, one would think that you might be one of the first in line to contribute since without rotoguru you would lose your forum (and audience) for all your pointless mason threads. c'mon, pony up. | |||||
| 41 | Guru ID: 330592710 Wed, Feb 21, 12:24 | Yes, I do consider the poll results to be quite encouraging, and I am now formulating a game plan, which I'll try to assemble and post in the next day or so. There is also another potential direction that I'm investigating (which must remain confidential for now), so please be patient while I mull over the possibilities. | |||||
| 42 | azdbacker ID: 230212320 Wed, Feb 21, 12:31 | He could tell us, but he'd have to kill us? This sounds interesting. ;) | |||||
| 43 | BlackMagicBaller ID: 71392113 Wed, Feb 21, 14:39 |
Guru: How feasible would it be to start your own games? I was looking over the sponsor list and I don't see smallworld in there. Actually, I don't see any fantasy sport sites on there. Although there is a symbiotic relationship between you and them, having your own games would eventually help shield you from external factors (such as smallworld going down) while adding additional value to your already great service. This doesn't have to be a big priority, just something for anyone interested in it to work on in a collaborative effort. The paying gurupies ( as a value adder for their patronage) could help develop, test or have access to it (or other future compensations or services). Oh no....please don't tell me that was your 'potential direction'....I'm too young to die ;) | |||||
| 44 | Cub Basher ID: 3122012 Wed, Feb 21, 15:18 |
Guru, so assuming dues received are enough to cover costs, would all sponsorship be eliminated? also are you treating this site as a business and reducing your taxable income by the net loss (i assume you're losing money on this)? | |||||
| 45 | Stuck in the Sixties ID: 151192115 Wed, Feb 21, 15:27 |
Guru: I've said this before in a number of different threads, but I'm willing to contribute from $50 per year up to about $100, if necessary. I think incentivizing things makes a good deal of sense and please, if there's anything an old sportswriter can do to help, let me know. | |||||
| 46 | Baldwin ID: 25440222 Wed, Feb 21, 17:27 |
Re:Guru starting his own game. If anyone is interested this idea was kicked around quite a bit before the last baseball season because SW had just gone thru some major glitches during the last hoops season. SW put what I would call a good faith effort to get back on track and Guru never pursued this course. The threads on this idea are quite interesting and well worth digging up specially if you weren't around back then. | |||||
| 47 | Mike ID: 49052108 Thu, Feb 22, 08:34 |
BUTT Question on the Guru's own games - would we get critical mass in terms of numbers to run SW-like market based games? Methinks that those with sampling talents would be able to predict all price changes with pretty much perfect accuracy. | |||||
| 48 | Slowhand ID: 361332110 Thu, Feb 22, 09:59 |
I would be GLAD to pay a fee but would like to see the message forum remain free...as far as games go in case some of you don't know the Guru has a couple of great games already; "Football Pickoff" and "Market Madness" are 2 I've really enjoyed(although done poorly at). Two suggestions might be: 1. Charge to play those games and perhaps even develop a couple of more such as a simple Pick em game in football and or a fill in the brackets for the NCAA tourney,also there was a MOV (margin of victory) game/thread in football that kind of petered out but I think could be a lot of fun.I would play many if not all of these games whether or not prizes were offered;I think most of us play for the fun and competition (but prizes are nice). 2.If fee based games/tools become a part of Rotoguru;perhaps you set up a Sponsorship program where for a yearly fee those who can afford it can "buy " a Sponsorship and part of the perks could be free play in all games and have free access to all sites/tools. This is definately the one of the longest of my few posts but I really enjoy and benefit from the tools and forums here and will gladly lend financial support to keep it viable. Thanks to all...especially the Guru! | |||||
| 49 | Shelby-villian ID: 117361915 Fri, Feb 23, 02:08 |
Guru, please read this article regarding PayPal: http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2001/02/23/pay_pal/index.html | |||||
| 50 | Klaus E ID: 13956316 Fri, Feb 23, 07:46 | Prince have just started a Music Club where Paypal have been used to handle payments. At the independent web-site prince.org that step have been criticized heavily since it excludes a vast number of international fans since several of the most popular credit cards in Europa - like Mastercard is not part of the Paypal system... but IMO Paypal is a great way to go initially just be aware Guru that it may cause some frustration - and loss of payments. | |||||
| 51 | Guru ID: 330592710 Fri, Feb 23, 08:23 |
In addition to PayPal, I'll probably set up other alternatives. One that I'm looking into is C2it.com, which is run by Citibank. (Does anyone have any experience with this facility?). YR has suggested Amazon's Honor System as an alternative, although their charges are rather steep. Does anyone have exoerience with, or suggestions for any other easy-to-use online cash transfer facilities? Finally, I will probably also establish a mailing address for those who prefer to send checks via snail mail. | |||||
| 52 | Guru ID: 330592710 Fri, Feb 23, 10:14 | Forget C2it.com. Too expensive. | |||||
| 53 | Klaus E ID: 4310141417 Fri, Feb 23, 15:56 |
When you register with Paypal they charge you $1 which will be refunded once you make your first payments thru the system. The withdrawal is made in order to provide you with a four digit Paypal registration code on your creditcard statement. However, I checked with my bank today and they couldn't give me the four digit code that Paypal supposedly should provide along with the withdrawal of aforementioned $1. At the bank they told me that they've experienced several times that such registration codes never materializes. I know the bank have some interest in scaring me offa schemes like Paypal... but I'm right now concerned that the 4-digit may not be on my monthly credit card statement - and just bcuz I'm living in Europe I can't join Paypal... maybe I'm worrying too much for my own good. Anyhoo Guru I think it's wise to locate alternate methods of payment. In all instances people need to know in good time if they need to register with Paypal since I gues the monthly creditcard statement - or online banking - are the only ways to obtain the needed registration code from Paypal. | |||||
| 54 | Shelby-villian ID: 117361915 Fri, Feb 23, 16:29 |
Just want to note that I am neither for or against Paypal- but the article on salon.com does raise some good points. I don't think gurupie membership is going to cause any fraud (or loss of payment), since the service offered isn't worth anything- the payment is voluntary supporting a free service. Paypal does seem a good service to use in this situation. I'm not sure I would use it to buy/sell gold bullion certificates though. ; ) | |||||
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