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Subject: OT: Gurupie Reading
Posted by: CanEHdian Pride
- [426351415] Sun, Nov 25, 2001, 20:49
After a brief discussion with Ender I thought it would be a good idea to start a thread that may broaden the horizon of the fantasy obsessed.
I'm going to try to make a conserted (probably would know how to spell it if I read more) to read in the New Year. I'm trying to find some books in a series/trilogy type setting or just a string of good reads by the same author. Anyone know of some good ones out there? |
| 1 | PhillyTom
ID: 101055821
Sun, Nov 25, 2001, 21:06
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Absolutely. Stephen King. By far, my favorite author. Start with the Running Man, it is about 98% different than the adapted movie with Arny. It has the most action out of all the books of his I have read. Alot of them are exactly like the movie (Green Mile, Stand by Me, Thinner, etc), but that one is totally different. It makes reading fun'damental.
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| 3 | Santa
ID: 47312017
Sun, Nov 25, 2001, 21:28
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Lord Of The Rings by JRR Tolkien is great reading packed full of adventure. Try starting out with the predecessor to that trilogy entitled The Hobbitt.
I also recommend Stephen King... Thinner really got a hold of me - Don't overlook The Green Mile either.
If you're more into something that's partially based on reality maybe you should try some of the novels by Tom Clancy.
Also look into Scott Turow and John Grisham.
Happy reading.
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| 5 | Y2JS
ID: 48312723
Sun, Nov 25, 2001, 21:36
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Why did my post get deleted? Can i get some help from a moderator?
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| 7 | Burnettsville
Donor
ID: 319362319
Sun, Nov 25, 2001, 21:40
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The Poppy books by Avi are an excellent series of children's literature that people of all ages enjoy reading. Start with Poppy. If you like it, the other titles in the series are: Poppy and Rye, Ragweed and Ereth's Birthday.
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| 8 | DR Stars
ID: 4211161321
Sun, Nov 25, 2001, 22:40
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My favorites are Grisham, except his last book, and Tom Clancy, there's a bunch of them, just pick it up with the older ones, and start from there. If you have a specific topic in mind maybe we can help you make a better decision.
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| 9 | CanEHdian Pride
ID: 426351415
Sun, Nov 25, 2001, 22:59
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yeah good call DR. I was thinking the same thing myself. I'm interested in finding an author who has a philisophical slant to his writing. Someone who is a little bit "out there". That doesn't help a lot but maybe someone knows who I'm looking for.
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| 10 | culdeus
Donor
ID: 2910421619
Sun, Nov 25, 2001, 23:07
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I would reccomend anyone with an interest in literature of other cultures try Nikolay Gogol a Russian author. "The Nose" is a good starting point (so to speak).
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| 11 | jedman
Sustainer
ID: 40746414
Sun, Nov 25, 2001, 23:34
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I am an avid reader. Some of my favorites
Richard North Patterson - political/courtroom thrillers.
Michael Palmer - medical thrillers
James Patterson - murder thrillers
Vince Flynn - Espionage/intrigue
Sue Grafton - light hearted murder mysteries, all with the same gal detective. She is the A is for Alibi B is for _____ type author.
There are many others. I much prefer reading to watching television.
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| 12 | Eat Acid
Donor
ID: 5610321618
Mon, Nov 26, 2001, 00:05
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Richard North Patterson is good. I picked up The Hobbitt off my shelf at home over Thx break, classic must-read by J.R.R. Tolkien.
If you are in the mood for some really light reading, try Prosser/Keaton on Torts. They will teach you what a reasonable man is. Or at least attempt to.
Philosophical EH? Try Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged. Definatly out there, blew my mind a couple of summers ago.
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| 13 | blue hen, almighty
Leader
ID: 27048221
Mon, Nov 26, 2001, 02:12
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All seven books in the Chronicles of Narnia.
The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract.
Ball Four by Jim Bouton.
Lords of the Realm by John Helyar.
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| 14 | philflyboy
Donor
ID: 2844635
Mon, Nov 26, 2001, 06:12
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The Wheel of Time Series by Robert Jordan. 10 Books in the series so far all 600 pages+. Along the same lines as the Lord of the Ring Series.
I also highly recommend John Grisham.
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| 15 | Tree
ID: 4310343
Mon, Nov 26, 2001, 06:58
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i'm gonna go with larry brown...
probably the finest southern writer around, it's hard to go wrong with any of his books. his collection of stories "big bad love" is about men and cars and sex and the women who love all three, even if it's bad for them. hmm..and vice-versa come to think of it....
his autobiography "on fire", about his days as a volunteer fireman in mississippi is brilliant...
his novel "dirty work" is an amazing tale of two vietnam vets stuck in a VA hospital - the entire book takes place in the beds the men are confined to, telling lots of the story in flash back style..
for "connected" books, check out his books "joe" and "fay"...joe is one of his earlier books, fay one of his most recent. fay is joe's teenage sister, and in the earlier novel, she runs away from home. Brown wrote Fay a good 10 or more years after Joe, after it bothered him so much that he wanted to know what happened to her after she left home...
long post, but an author worthy of it!
Tree
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| 16 | havenbros
Donor
ID: 0102298
Mon, Nov 26, 2001, 07:02
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CP: I really enjoyed Thomas Harris' three Hannibal Lecter thrillers: Red Dragon, Silence of the Lambs and Hannibal.
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| 17 | CanEHdian Pride
ID: 426351415
Mon, Nov 26, 2001, 07:31
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Thanks guys,
I think I'm going to check out "Atlas Shrugged". I took a look at the website and it seems like it could be a great read.
Also, checking through yahoo there is a site which includes such topics as "basketball salaries, computer programming and Atlas Shrugged" could that be our friend Eat Acid's homepage?
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| 18 | Tomcraw
ID: 289503117
Mon, Nov 26, 2001, 17:28
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Definitely "The Lord of the Rings" by Tolkien. You need to read the books before the movie comes out. I'd skip the Hobbit, you get the whole hobbit story in first book through recollections of the characters. The hobbit is a children's book, the trilogy is written for adults.
Another good russian lit. book is "The Brothers Karmazov" by Dostoyevski. It's not a trilogy but is as long as 3 books :)
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| 19 | KrazyKoalaBears
Donor
ID: 266182910
Mon, Nov 26, 2001, 17:54
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Some mentioned before, some not: - The Green Mile, by Stephen King (best read in the original 6 book series. He released one book per month for 6 months. I would read the book the first day and wait 30 days for the next one. Give yourself a week to make it fun) - Desperation/The Regulators, by Stephen King/Richard Bachman (same guy, very interesting books. Read them in either order you want, but both books have the same characters in completely opposite settings. A hero in one is the bad guy in the other and vice versa. Best read back-to-back so that you can get the eerie feeling of the role changes.) - The Hannibal Trilogy, by Thomas Harris (The books in post #16. Not really a trilogy, but a fun ride in the life of Hannibal. I really enjoyed reading them in the order of Lambs, Hannibal, Dragon. By reading The Red Dragon last, you get to look back and see Hannibal before he really became Hannibal. - Hearts in Atlantis, by Stephen King (Interesting read following a boy as he grows up. A large portion of the book is dedicated to establishing the relationship between the boy and a drifter man who has some interesting powers.) - Flash Forward, by Robert Sawyer (What happens when some scientists start a scientific experiment and cause everyone to go to sleep for a few moments? What happens when during that sleep everyone is thrust forward 20 years into the future? What about the people who are now asleep in cars driving 50 mph? What about the people who don't see a future? A VERY good and interesting read. The answers aren't as simple as they may seem and the biggest question of the book becomes, do they dare do it again?) - Congo, Disclosure, Jurrasic Park, Andromeda Strain, Eaters of the Dead, Airframe, The Lost World, all by Michael Crichton (All have their own twists and most have been made into movies. The books are far better than the movies could ever wish to be.) - The People's Choice, by Jeff Greenfield (What happens when the president-elect dies just days after being elected? Who will the Electoral College select as the new President now that the vote is completely in their hands?) Any book written by Nancy Taylor Rosenberg (Former LA prosecutor writes crime novels, except "California Angel" that always have a fun twist and never end the way you truly expect them to.) - The Hot Zone, by Richard Preston (What happens when Ebola is found in Reston, VA? 1/2 fiction, 1/2 non-fiction. Pretty scary read.) - The Stand, by Stephen King (Don't read anything but the uncut version. It'll take a while to finish, but it's well worth it.) - Pandora's Clock and Medusa's Child, by John J. Nance (Both have a dooms-day feel to them and are really good reads. The 2 are not tied to each other) - The Winner, by David Baldacci (If someone offered you a guaranteed win in the Lotto with the only condition being that you had to leave the country forever, would you take it? What if you work at a rundown truck-stop and barely make the rent on your single-wide trailer and have a baby to feed? Great read.)
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| 20 | chuckball
Donor
ID: 259122914
Mon, Nov 26, 2001, 20:10
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Here's a couple others to add to the list... Unguarded Lenny Wilkens Autobiography Those crazy Harry Potter books if you haven't already read them, they are the new classics and definitely worth a read for anyone young at heart. Artemis Fowl by Eoin Colfer is a new book in the fantasy vein with a little bit of a violent twist. Ender's Series 4 books in the series by Orson Scott Card that are a fast and entertaining spin of a spacey sort. Anything by Tom Robbins Always a philisophical character you could get into. Even Cowgirls get the Blues is one of my favorites. Kurt Vonnegut Insane contemporary writer who just doesn't know when to quit. His latest work seems to have really gone off the deep end, but Bluebeard, Breakfast of Champions, and Cat's Cradle are tough to beat. Leon Uris Ok now I'm just breaking down into great authors, but for a political history that is a fascinating read...try the Irish Saga with Trinity and Redemption or the story of the birth of Israel in Exodus. Richard Feynman For the uber-geek in all of us...for a physicist he actually does have a sense of humour.
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| 21 | joe suspect
Donor
ID: 71021714
Mon, Nov 26, 2001, 20:28
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I recently finished and can recommned Blindless by Jose Sarmago and The Poisonwood Bible by Barbara Kingsolver (even though it's in Oprah's Book Club !!).
I also highly recommend 100 Years Of Solitude by Gabriel Garcia Marquez.
CanEHdian Pride -- I read Atlas Shrugged. Good book, but be prepared for 20 page speeches...
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| 22 | The Captain
ID: 27912221
Mon, Nov 26, 2001, 20:53
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CanEHdian Pride, try out Ayn Rand's Fountainhead too, very interesting book. I've yet to read Atlas Shrugged, been sitting on my bookcase for the past two years.
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| 23 | Seattle Zen
ID: 37241120
Mon, Nov 26, 2001, 21:53
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NOOOOO!
Ayn Rand is evil! She is a conservative wench from Hell, all that is wrong with this world!
Noam Chomski, Howard Zinn, Disinformation.com's You are being Lied to
Life is too short and you are too important to read the mush listed above.
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| 24 | joe suspect
Donor
ID: 71021714
Mon, Nov 26, 2001, 21:59
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Ayn Rand was for women being sexually aggressive. This is a BAD thing?
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| 25 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 258492618
Mon, Nov 26, 2001, 22:09
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I have to agree with SZ on this one. Stick to real fiction, not political brainwashing masking as fiction.
Richard Feynman is an excellent choice. A brilliant man, taken too soon. Most knew his because of his testimony before Congress after the Challenger disaster, but the man was a fricking genius.
Just finishing up the Harry Potter series. Easy books, good escapism. I like Leno's take on it: "Psychologists are very happy with the Harry Potter books, since they have encouraged kids, particularly boys, to read more books. So what do they do--make a movie out of it!"
Dante's Inferno (Mandelbaum or Fagles translation, please) just goes to show how good classic literature can be. Don't worry about the other two books in the series--Dante was just padding it out.
Another in the "he's never going to read this" list: I've been reading two of the funniest writers I've come across in a long time: Samuel Hoffenstein and Ogden Nash. Both wrote humorous verse, so it might not seem worth it--but it is.
Loved Lord of the Rings, and it's time to pick it back up again, I think. Same as Dune.
pd
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| 26 | CanEHdian Pride
ID: 426351415
Mon, Nov 26, 2001, 22:18
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Very bold comments PD.
Thanks for the ideas. Anybody read anything by Neil Stevenson. I have a copy of Cryptonomicon that I started but kind of pushed to the side for awhile. Is that worth picking up?
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| 27 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 258492618
Mon, Nov 26, 2001, 22:26
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I think he did some short stories--I recall his name in an anthology I read once. A good writer. As I recall, I remember wanting to read something longer to see what he would do with a slower-developing plot line. Don't know anything about that particular book, though.
pd
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| 28 | biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 3502218
Mon, Nov 26, 2001, 22:28
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I read Stephenson's Snow Crash a while back. Pretty good. He's no Gibson, but he's close.
Ditto on the reactionary bich comments.
The Red Mars, Green Mars, Blue Mars series by Kim Stanley Robinson was excellent - contains philosophy, high tech SF stuff, politics, and a wee touch of sexy bits. ;) I recommend.
More -ilogies:
Dune
LoTR
The Thomas Covenant series (6 books) by Stephen
Donaldson - loved this in college. Light and very dark and twisted. Couldn't put down.
The Foundation Trilogy by Azimov is some of the best pure sci-fi out there.
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| 29 | CanEHdian Pride
ID: 426351415
Mon, Nov 26, 2001, 22:31
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Who's Gibson?
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| 30 | Ender
ID: 13443221
Mon, Nov 26, 2001, 22:34
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William Gibson, I'm sure, father of Cyberpunk. The Matrix is probably best described as an evolved form (direct?) of cyberpunk.
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| 31 | biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 3502218
Mon, Nov 26, 2001, 22:34
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William Gibson - Early cyberpunk. Start with Neuromancer and work your way through his stuff. It's all good.
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| 32 | CanEHdian Pride
ID: 426351415
Mon, Nov 26, 2001, 22:40
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YES!!! MY SEARCH IS OVER!
That is what I'm looking for! I'm a cyberpunk at heart and was excited with the idea of "Cryptonomicon" but I felt it bogged itself down with "history" which is not my favorite subject, I'm gonna check out Neuromancer and go from there.
Thanks guys.
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| 33 | MyLakers
ID: 345282521
Mon, Nov 26, 2001, 22:51
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Another Trilogy in the vein of Lord of the Rings and every bit as good. The Belgariad by David Eddings, five AWESOME books. I also likedAtlas Shrugged, and to me it points out all that is wrong even today in our semi-socialist society. I must also give the nod to the Foundation series as well as the Stephen R. Donaldson series. For a quick touching read try "A Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich" by Dostoevsky(sp).
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| 34 | Ender
ID: 13443221
Mon, Nov 26, 2001, 22:55
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Don't most trilogies have THREE books? ;)
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| 35 | MyLakers
ID: 345282521
Mon, Nov 26, 2001, 23:06
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LOL,,my bad, you are right, I get to excited about that SERIES and the Tolkien stuff and reading in general.
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| 36 | Slackjawed Yokel
Sustainer
ID: 331011723
Mon, Nov 26, 2001, 23:06
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Ya know, I was going to mention Gibson, and was surprised no one had yet.. My faves are Neuromancer and Count Zero -- very fast and entertaining reads.
Other science fiction I've liked include Larry Niven (Ringworld) and Ursula LeGuin (Lathe of Heaven, Dispossessed).
Also, lately, I've read some of Mario Puzo's (of Godfather fame) work - Fool's Die, The 4th K, The Godfather, and The Last Don are all good.
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| 37 | Eat Acid
Donor
ID: 5610321618
Mon, Nov 26, 2001, 23:34
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I live for no man, I ask no man to live for me.
The best brainwashing I've ever had in my 22 years.
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| 38 | Tortfeasor
Donor
ID: 469202110
Mon, Nov 26, 2001, 23:43
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Already mentioned, but thought I would expand:
Road Work, Running Man, and The Long Walk are all written by Stephen King under the pseudonym Richard Bachman. They were written in the middle-to-late seventies.
To tell you the truth, The Long Walk is absolutely one of the best books I've ever read. It's on par with Crime and Punishment in terms of really getting you inside the character's head. A great, short read.
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| 39 | Intimidator
ID: 337481022
Tue, Nov 27, 2001, 00:15
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I can recommend another series from Stephen King, the Dark Tower books are a good read. It's about a gunslinger that passes through doors/portals that transport him to different time eras. So far, someone from each portal has joined him on his journey. If you start reading them now, maybe he will have written the next chapter when you're done.
Also on a darker side, Anne Rice has several good trilogies on vampires and witches.
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| 40 | Eat Acid
Donor
ID: 5610321618
Tue, Nov 27, 2001, 00:45
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"[T]he only real moral crime that one man can commit against another is the attempt to create, by his words or actions, an impression of the contradictory, the impossible, the irrational, and thus shake the concept of rationality in his victim."
"If I were to speak your kind of language, I would say that man's only moral commandment is: Thou shalt think. But a 'moral commandment' is a contradiction in terms. The moral is the chosen, not the forced; the understood, not the obeyed. The moral is the rational, and reason accepts no commandments."
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| 41 | Eat Acid
Donor
ID: 5610321618
Tue, Nov 27, 2001, 00:51
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"So you think that money is the root of all evil? Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil?
"When you accept money in payment for your effort, you do so only on the conviction that you will exchange it for the product of the effort of others. It is not the moochers or the looters who give value to money. Not an ocean of tears nor all the guns in the world can transform those pieces of paper in your wallet into the bread you will need to survive tomorrow. Those pieces of paper, which should have been gold, are a token of honor-- your claim upon the energy of the men who produce. Your wallet is your statement of hope that somewhere in the world around you there are men who will not default on that moral principle which is the root of money. Is this what you consider evil?
"Have you ever looked for the root of production? Take a look at an electric generator and dare tell yourself that it was created by the muscular effort of unthinking brutes. Try to grow a seed of wheat without the knowledge left to you by men who had to discover it for the first time. Try to obtain your food by means of nothing but physical motions--and you'll learn that man's mind is the root of all the goods produced and of all the wealth that has ever existed on earth.
"But you say that money is made by the strong at the expense of the weak? What strength do you mean? It is not the strength of guns or muscles. Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think. Then is money made by the man who invents a motor at the expense of those who did not invent it? Is money made by the intelligent at the expense of the fools? By the able at the expense of the incompetent? By the ambitious at the expense of the lazy? Money is MADE--before it can be looted or mooched--made by the effort of every honest man, each to the extent of his ability. An honest man is one who knows that he can't consume more than he has produced.
"To trade by means of money is the code of the men of good will. Money rests on the axiom that every man is the owner of his mind and his effort. Money allows no power to prescribe the value of your effort except by the voluntary choice of the man who is willing to trade you his effort in return. Money permits you to obtain for your goods and your labor that which they are worth to the men who buy them, but no more. Money permits no deals except those to mutual benefit by the unforced judgment of the traders. Money demands of you the recognition that men must work for their own benefit, not for their own injury, for their gain, not their loss--the recognition that they are not beasts of burden, born to carry the weight of your misery--that you must offer them values, not wounds--that the common bond among men is not the exchange of suffering, but the exchange of GOODS. Money demands that you sell, not your weakness to men's stupidity, but your talent to their reason; it demands that you buy, not the shoddiest they offer, but the best your money can find. And when men live by trade--with reason, not force, as their final arbiter--it is the best product that wins, the best performance, then man of best judgment and highest ability--and the degree of a man's productiveness is the degree of his reward. This is the code of existence whose tool and symbol is money. Is this what you consider evil?
"But money is only a tool. It will take you wherever you wish, but it will not replace you as the driver. It will give you the means for the satisfaction of your desires, but it will not provide you with desires. Money is the scourge of the men who attempt to reverse the law of causality--the men who seek to replace the mind by seizing the products of the mind.
"Money will not purchase happiness for the man who has no concept of what he wants; money will not give him a code of values, if he's evaded the knowledge of what to value, and it will not provide him with a purpose, if he's evaded the choice of what to seek. Money will not buy intelligence for the fool, or admiration for the coward, or respect for the incompetent. The man who attempts to purchase the brains of his superiors to serve him, with his money replacing his judgment, ends up by becoming the victim of his inferiors. The men of intelligence desert him, but the cheats and the frauds come flocking to him, drawn by a law which he has not discovered: that no man may be smaller than his money. Is this the reason why you call it evil?
"Only the man who does not need it, is fit to inherit wealth--the man who would make his own fortune no matter where he started. If an heir is equal to his money, it serves him; if not, it destroys him. But you look on and you cry that money corrupted him. Did it? Or did he corrupt his money? Do not envy a worthless heir; his wealth is not yours and you would have done no better with it. Do not think that it should have been distributed among you; loading the world with fifty parasites instead of one, would not bring back the dead virtue which was the fortune. Money is a living power that dies without its root. Money will not serve that mind that cannot match it. Is this the reason why you call it evil?
"Money is your means of survival. The verdict which you pronounce upon the source of your livelihood is the verdict you pronounce upon your life. If the source is corrupt, you have damned your own existence. Did you get your money by fraud? By pandering to men's vices or men's stupidity? By catering to fools, in the hope of getting more than your ability deserves? By lowering your standards? By doing work you despise for purchasers you scorn? If so, then your money will not give you a moment's or a penny's worth of joy. Then all the things you buy will become, not a tribute to you, but a reproach; not an achievement, but a reminder of shame. Then you'll scream that money is evil. Evil, because it would not pinch-hit for your self-respect? Evil, because it would not let you enjoy your depravity? Is this the root of your hatred of money?
"Money will always remain an effect and refuse to replace you as the cause. Money is the product of virtue, but it will not give you virtue and it will not redeem your vices. Money will not give you the unearned, neither in matter nor in spirit. Is this the root of your hatred of money?
"Or did you say it's the LOVE of money that's the root of all evil? To love a thing is to know and love its nature. To love money is to know and love the fact that money is the creation of the best power within you, and your passkey to trade your effort for the effort of the best among men. It's the person who would sell his soul for a nickel, who is the loudest in proclaiming his hatred of money--and he has good reason to hate it. The lovers of money are willing to work for it. They know they are able to deserve it."
"Let me give you a tip on a clue to men's characters: the man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it.
"Run for your life from any man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another--their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun.
"But money demands of you the highest virtues, if you wish to make it or to keep it. Men who have no courage, pride, or self-esteem, men who have no moral sense of their right to their money and are not willing to defend it as they defend their life, men who apologize for being rich--will not remain rich for long. They are the natural bait for the swarms of looters that stay under rocks for centuries, but come crawling out at the first smell of a man who begs to be forgiven for the guilt of owning wealth. They will hasten to relieve him of the guilt--and of his life, as he deserves.
"Then you will see the rise of the double standard--the men who live by force, yet count on those who live by trade to create the value of their looted money--the men who are the hitchhikers of virtue. In a moral society, these are the criminals, and the statutes are written to protect you against them. But when a society establishes criminals-by-right and looters-by-law--men who use force to seize the wealth of DISARMED victims--then money becomes its creators' avenger. Such looters believe it safe to rob defenseless men, once they've passed a law to disarm them. But their loot becomes the magnet for other looters, who get it from them as they got it. Then the race goes, not to the ablest at production, but to those most ruthless at brutality. When force is the standard, the murderer wins over the pickpocket. And then that society vanishes, in a spread of ruins and slaughter.
"Do you wish to know whether that day is coming? Watch money. Money is the barometer of a society's virtue. When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion--when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing--when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors--when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you--when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice--you may know that your society is doomed. Money is so noble a medium that it does not compete with guns and it does not make terms with brutality. It will not permit a country to survive as half-property, half-loot.
"Whenever destroyers appear among men, they start by destroying money, for money is men's protection and the base of a moral existence. Destroyers seize gold and leave to its owners a counterfeit pile of paper. This kills all objective standards and delivers men into the arbitrary power of an arbitrary setter of values. Gold was an objective value, an equivalent of wealth produced. Paper is a mortgage on wealth that does not exist, backed by a gun aimed at those who are expected to produce it. Paper is a check drawn by legal looters upon an account which is not theirs: upon the virtue of the victims. Watch for the day when it becomes, marked: 'Account overdrawn.'
"When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, 'Who is destroying the world?' You are.
"You stand in the midst of the greatest achievements of the greatest productive civilization and you wonder why it's crumbling around you, while your damning its life-blood--money. You look upon money as the savages did before you, and you wonder why the jungle is creeping back to the edge of your cities. Throughout men's history, money was always seized by looters of one brand or another, but whose method remained the same: to seize wealth by force and to keep the producers bound, demeaned, defamed, deprived of honor. That phrase about the evil of money, which you mouth with such righteous recklessness, comes from a time when wealth was produced by the labor of slaves--slaves who repeated the motions once discovered by somebody's mind and left unimproved for centuries. So long as production was ruled by force, and wealth was obtained by conquest, there was little to conquer. Yet through all the centuries of stagnation and starvation, men exalted the looters, as aristocrats of the sword, as aristocrats of birth, as aristocrats of the bureau, and despised the producers, as slaves, as traders, as shopkeepers--as industrialists.
"To the glory of mankind, there was, for the first and only time in history, a COUNTRY OF MONEY--and I have no higher, more reverent tribute to pay to America, for this means: a country of reason, justice, freedom, production, achievement. For the first time, man's mind and money were set free, and there were no fortunes-by-conquest, but only fortunes-by-work, and instead of swordsmen and slaves, there appeared the real maker of wealth, the greatest worker, the highest type of human being--the self-made man--the American industrialist.
"If you ask me to name the proudest distinction of Americans, I would choose--because it contains all the others--the fact that they were the people who created the phrase 'to MAKE money.' No other language or nation had ever used these words before; men had always thought of wealth as a static quantity--to be seized, begged, inherited, shared, looted, or obtained as a favor. Americans were the first to understand that wealth has to be created. The words 'to make money' hold the essence of human morality.
"Yet these were the words for which Americans were denounced by the rotted cultures of the looters' continents. Now the looters' credo has brought you to regard your proudest achievements as a hallmark of shame, your prosperity as guilt, your greatest men, the industrialists, as blackguards, and your magnificent factories as the product and property of muscular labor, the labor of whip-driven slaves, like the pyramids of Egypt. The rotter who simpers that he sees no difference between the power of the dollar and the power of the whip, ought to learn the difference on his own hide-as, I think, he will.
"Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction. When money ceases to be the tool by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of men. Blood, whips and guns--or dollars. Take your choice--there is no other--and your time is running out."
Mebbe a little too much for some, but it damn well shouldn't be tossed aside because of a misplaced label as "conservative."
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| 42 | KevinL
Donor
ID: 48721523
Tue, Nov 27, 2001, 01:08
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I like to read the RotoGuru Message Forum especially post 41. With posts like that, who needs books?
Seriously, I read alot. This summer & fall I've enjoyed the Harry Potter books, the Left Behind Christian series, and Message In A Bottle by Nicholas Sparks.
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| 43 | Me
ID: 141029141
Tue, Nov 27, 2001, 02:17
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Culdeus: Not that "The Nose" is without merit, but I must say recommending it to someone who is trying to get into reading a lot is some straight up weird science man.
Pride: if you dig short stories at all pick up some Hemmingway collections. They're pretty bad ass, you can easily read a couple a day, and short stories do provide instant gratification.
For a great book that is impossible to put down go George Orwell's "1984." It's particularly pertinent these days . . .
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| 44 | Stretch Nuts
ID: 293112217
Tue, Nov 27, 2001, 10:54
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For light reading, I've enjoyed the work of Winston Groom, who wrote Forrest Gump. His books have the same light-hearted feel to them as the movie. 'As Summers Die' is a good one. There's also the sequel to Forrest Gump.
For really challenging literature as opposed to the mostly commercial stuff (Grisham, King, Crichton, Clancy, etc.) that's been suggested in this thread, I highly suggest William Faulkner's The Sound and the Fury.
Read it because its depiction of family dysfunction and Southern culture are memorable. But more importantly, read it because it will rip apart all the conventions of story-telling that you've become habituated to from the typical novel. It will open up your mind to a world of possibilities as a writing stylist.
A word of caution: The Sound and the Fury is perhaps the only novel best read with a copy of the Cliff's Notes nearby. Unless you're an absurdly patient reader, you'll have a HELL of a time figuring the book out all by yourself.
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| 45 | Stretch Nuts
ID: 293112217
Tue, Nov 27, 2001, 10:57
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By the way, I would like to thank CanEHdian Pride on behalf of all gurupies for giving us a chance to show off how smart we are without looking pretentious. This has been very good for my ego.
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| 46 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 381021414
Tue, Nov 27, 2001, 11:25
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I tried to read Sound & the Fury a few times and gave up. A very difficult book. Like Proust or Joyce's Ulysses I'm afraid I've left judgements about these books to readers more patient than I!
pd
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| 47 | MyLakers
ID: 345282521
Tue, Nov 27, 2001, 12:03
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Let me throw Les Miserables in with your two PD. Great book, hard to hang in there with it and catch everything.
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| 48 | JCS
ID: 381051716
Tue, Nov 27, 2001, 12:07
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All of Bret Easton Ellis' books...but I agree not everybody has to like it...'Less Than Zero' is a great, great novel...
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| 49 | Seattle Zen
ID: 37241120
Tue, Nov 27, 2001, 14:42
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Post #41
It is obvious, Eat Acid, that your moniker is a lie. Anyone who has taken acid would see right through the crass shallowness of Rand.
Ok, I won't toss it aside as "conservative", I'll just shread it and call it "SH!TE"!
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| 50 | Bungers
ID: 339541815
Tue, Nov 27, 2001, 15:05
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SZ,
"I'll just shread it and call it "SH!TE"!".
Based on what? You've avoided spelling out your reasons for your distaste for Rand before in the Political Forum. I would honestly like to see someone logically be able to counter her words without using emotionally charged arguments that presuppose a conclusion or "necessary" action, such as "surely everyone knows the environment is in bad shape and we must do something about it."
I would really like to see you do it because I've never met anyone who could debate her work logically without games or attacking semantics. Best of luck.
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| 51 | CanEHdian Pride
ID: 426351415
Tue, Nov 27, 2001, 15:40
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Here's a little humour from some of my fellow compatriots.
Avid Readers should get a kick out of it!
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| 52 | KrazyKoalaBears
Donor
ID: 266182910
Tue, Nov 27, 2001, 15:48
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If you want to go old skool, I always enjoyed Moby Dick. Seriously, it's a great book. I found it absolutely amazing when one of my English professors spent an entire day talking about the symbolism in the painting in the inn. Pretty amazing stuff.
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| 53 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 381021414
Tue, Nov 27, 2001, 16:20
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KKB, that is a great book, but I would suggest anyone coming into it for the first time find themselves an abridged version. Pages and pages and pages of sperm whale oil extraction techniques. *snooze*
pd
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| 54 | James K Polk
ID: 64333018
Tue, Nov 27, 2001, 23:21
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LOL, PD, I agree with you on that!
Glad to see biliruben mention Asimov, and specifically The Foundation series. Those are absolutely incredible books. One of the most amazing things about them is that you'd pretty much never know they were written as long ago as they were. Phenomenal ideas on "psychohistory" and future probabilities. Anything by Asimov is worth picking up, but IMHO his short stories and The Foundation stuff are his best.
If you're not so much into history, CP, I can see why you'd put down "Cryptonomicon." But give yourself a little Gibson, then try picking it back up. I actually kind of geeked out on the whole back-and-forth between present and WWII in Cryptonomicon, and found the whole history of cryptography to be fascinating. "Snow Crash," as biliruben mentioned, is also fantastic. In many ways, I'd say I actually prefer Stephenson to Gibson.
Actually, Cryptonomicon led me to a couple great nonfiction books. "The Code Book," by Simon Singh, which is a much more extensive look at cryptography, and "Fermat's Last Theorem," also by Singh, which is the story of centuries of frustrating attempts to solve an infamous mathematical theorem. Far more interesting than you might think.
As for old skool, I'd toss in "Siddhartha," by Herman Hesse. Short book that will make you think for a long time. And one of the finest examples of efficient writing, IMHO. No wasted words, and fits in nicely if you want to talk about getting philosophical.
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| 55 | winmiller
Sustainer
ID: 107452613
Tue, Nov 27, 2001, 23:45
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I highly recommend all five books in the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy trilogy. Great fun yet full of ironic social criticism.
I also highly recommend The Things They Carried, by Tim O'Brien. It is an excellent story about the Vietnam experience with an interesting side thread about the validity of fiction. It is also one of the best written books I have ever read. No wasted words or unneccessary descriptions in this one - a very worthwhile read.
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