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Subject: NBA All-Star Break policy
Posted by: Bernie H.
- [19852422] Sat, Feb 02, 2002, 20:27
Public Service Announcement.
During the 4 days of the NBA All-Star Break (Fri. 2/8 - Mon. 2/11), there will be no daily price updates in the TSN Ultimate Fantasy Hoops game. Also, there will be no interruption in the giving out of trades on Tuesdays.
The free Fantasy Hoops game will be entirely unaffected.
Enjoy the festivities!
Bernie, TSN |
| Only the 50 most recent replies are currently shown. Click on this text to display hidden posts as well. |
| 23 | KrazyKoalaBears
Donor
ID: 266182910
Sun, Feb 03, 2002, 20:50
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DaveR, actually it does. Technically, if you paid for one thing and then TSN changed the rules midstream, you could ask for a refund based on the fact that TSN changed the rules of the game for which you initially paid (no idea if it would be considered a legitimate claim or not since it does state in their rules that the rules are subject to change). What are you going to ask for if you didn't pay anything?
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| 24 | PGunn
ID: 53128310
Sun, Feb 03, 2002, 20:55
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Why are you all surprised? They changed the rules when it came to PlasmaX's free trade didn't they? Get this thru your head fellas:
THESE KNUCKLEHEADS DO WHATEVER THEY WANT WHENEVER THEY WANT -IT DOESN'T MATTER TO THEM IF IT AFFECTS THE RULES OR THE FAIRNESS OF THE GAME!!
THEY WRITE THE RULES AS THE GAME GOES ON- IT DOESN'T MATTER TO THEM IF WE HAD A SET OF RULES BEFORE WE ALL PAID TO PLAY THIS GAME OR NOT |
| 25 | Dave R
Leader
ID: 10035120
Sun, Feb 03, 2002, 21:08
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KKB, still don't see the relavance of whether the game is free or not. Any game you play, the rules are the rules, and they should be consistant.
PGunn, lighten up.
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| 26 | KrazyKoalaBears
Donor
ID: 266182910
Sun, Feb 03, 2002, 21:17
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Dave R, no doubt about that. But maybe this change of rules is a bit more serious than if the game were free. If it's free, it's kind of like "you get what you pay for." There aren't a lot of expectations from anything free. But when you pay for things, it enters an entirely new realm of expectations and meeting those expectations. There still needs to be a level of quality with something free (since it represents your company), but that level almost always drops, and is expected to drop, a bit compared to an item with a price tag on it.
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| 27 | PlasmaX
ID: 15100201
Sun, Feb 03, 2002, 21:20
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PGunn - you need to get out more dude. You make it sound like the whole world will cave in during the "price-freeze" ASB.
Stop taking this competition so seriously!
(Unless of course - the TSN prize money is your only source of income....)
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| 28 | Bloody Geoff
ID: 1111461119
Sun, Feb 03, 2002, 21:39
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Its a game. Its their game. If you don't like it then quit, no one will care or notice.
Who cares if there are trades over ASB? You've got a week's notice, start dealing with it.
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| 29 | Master P
ID: 16141321
Sun, Feb 03, 2002, 21:41
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If somebody is risking their money they have every right to take any competition seriously. if a company is charging you for a service and then decides not to give you what you paid for..(saying prices would update every day and now changing the rules in the middle of the game)..that is something that can not be tolerated. we may need an auditor to investigate TSN and the way they are running their game. this is about as organized as a crap game in a back alley.
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| 30 | PlasmaX
ID: 15100201
Sun, Feb 03, 2002, 21:52
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(Master P).....and still you continue to play.
Simple - play or don't. No-one cares either way.
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| 31 | Bloody Geoff
ID: 1111461119
Sun, Feb 03, 2002, 21:53
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It was $10 to play for the year - where's the risk?
Auditors? What are you on?
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| 33 | Ender
ID: 13443221
Sun, Feb 03, 2002, 22:48
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SO, Bloody Geoff, you wouldn't have any problem if they arbitrarily adjusted other rules midstream? What if they decided missed free throws will be -2 for the second half of the season? Or that we would only receive 3 trades a week for the second half? This game is now materially different than the one we paid for. You can say "don't play then", but we have not received what we paid for and have the right to expect a refund.
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| 34 | Y2JS
ID: 48312723
Sun, Feb 03, 2002, 23:04
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That's true Ender but don't you think they took into account that this won't have as much of a direct impact on our teams then something i see as substantial like you said, -2 for free throws or 3 trades per week. Don't get me wrong, i don't like that this all of a suddenly came about and it does deserve an explanation but it looks pretty minor on paper. Then again maybe i'm just one of the lucky ones where it won't hurt my team but certainly could have helped
My $0.02 cents
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| 35 | Chris Eibling
ID: 51054300
Sun, Feb 03, 2002, 23:17
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Bernie.....For the Free League
Is there going to be price changes for the week of Feb 5 - Feb 11...meaning that there will be a change at Noon on Tuesday 12th.
Reason I ask is I want Jason Kidd but I see I can ride A.Miller for a few games before his 4 game week...and I did no t want to miss out on any J Kidd Price Increases in doing so....?
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| 36 | Guru
ID: 330592710
Sun, Feb 03, 2002, 23:25
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Chris - of course there will be a free game price change on 2/12.
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| 37 | Ender
ID: 13443221
Sun, Feb 03, 2002, 23:26
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The fact that someone has to ask the question in post 35 is an example of why this is wrong. That question shouldn't even be necessary (Chris, this is not a criticism of you, just the fact that a rule change prompts further questions).
Y2JS, I understand what you are saying, and I agree that this is not very material, but that's not the point. If they can change this rule, then why couldn't they make a material change? Or at least one that is not fair to all parties? Rule changes in the middle of a game are wrong. If I paid for one set of rules and receive a different set of rules then I have not received what I paid for, period. That's the problem.
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| 38 | joe suspect
Donor
ID: 441143311
Sun, Feb 03, 2002, 23:28
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It's a 3 game week and we will have price changes for each of those 3 days, correct?
I just don't see what the problem is. If someone doesn't play on the 12th, can't you trade after 12pm on 2/11 and still have that count towards the price change on the 12th?
Same thing with trading someone that didn't play on the 7th -- sell post freeze on the 6th. There will still be price changes on the 7th.
The only thing I see this affecting is anyone that planned on using the "invalid roster" strategy. (can anyone show why that would be useful?)
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| 39 | Y2JS
ID: 48312723
Sun, Feb 03, 2002, 23:35
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I understand and that's why i said "that's true" so until they can post a legit reason as to why a midseason rule came into effect you're right. Who knows, maybe there was something in writing where a price freeze would take place over the ASB and we were not notified or they were giving their employees the 3 days off over the ASB, lol i don't know. Just give us an answer!
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| 40 | Hillbilly Delight
Donor
ID: 491221
Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 01:48
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Bernie H.,
I have a quick question, which may or may not have been addressed above.
Since prices will not change on Fri, Sat, Sun, and Mon, will the trades made b/w Friday-postfreeze and Monday-prefreeze be counted together to influence the price changes on Tuesday?
For example, if I trade Gerald Wallace on Saturday night because he was injured during the dunk contest, then will my trade (and others who made the same move) influence the price changes on Tuesday?
Or will the Tuesday price changes only include the trades made from Monday postfreeze to Tuesday prefreeze?
Thanks,
HD
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| 41 | RacerX
ID: 341154191
Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 02:16
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I for one am relieved there will be no daily price changes-I need a break. Sounds to me like I'm not the only one.
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| 42 | KTxGOD
ID: 560462423
Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 03:12
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Is it THAT big of a deal? It's like they are changing the scoring system or anything like that. I am not playing this year, but frankly, i don't think that 3 days of price changes will impact your final WWR. And it's not like it helps anyone in particular; everyone has to deal with the lack of price changes too.
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| 43 | Dan
Donor
ID: 41838303
Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 04:37
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KT, but yes it is a big deal. We went into this game with a specific set of rules in which we were expected to follow. It is not right in any situation for rules to be changed, whether it seem like it is minor or not, either way the rules have been changed which was wrong. And to only give us a weeks warning!??? I play hockey as well, and I know that we were giving over a month's warning as to what would happen during the ASB and the Olympics, all of which was posted on the main page when you log into your hockey team.
While in hoops I still see no announcement on their page!?? Not everyone that plays the games visit this forum. If you are going to change the rules at least do it right by giving all managers ample notice via posting at SW or sending each manager an e-mail, and give us more warning than a week!! That is why I feel it is simply wrong to change the rules that have been set out. Sorry for my rant. :-)
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| 44 | allhair allstars
Sustainer
ID: 52112514
Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 09:08
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Meanwhile... Where is Bernie H.?
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| 45 | havenbros
Donor
ID: 170371814
Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 10:02
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One seemingly reasonable compromise here might be to have the trades for Fri, Sat, Sun and Mon aggregated on Monday so you get one price change for the entire ASB. This should appease those who want to achieve some specific result during the break, while minimizing the need for the rest of us to monitor daily price changes or for TSN to do anything over the weekend. Except for the possibility of an injury to a participant, there is no reason to expect prices to move more on any given day during the break. I'm not sure why segregating the Tuesday trades produces a more acceptable result than just lumping all 5 days together, but for some reason it seems more appropriate to have one price change for the break period and another for the day games resume.
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| 46 | rockafellerskank
Donor
ID: 111649
Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 10:07
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$0.02:
Since this decision hasn't been posted at the TSN site, I'd suggest retracting the decision here. Only a limited number of owners that have read this post will know the decision was ever contemplated to turn off price changes.
Kind of a "no harm - no foul"
It certainly is the right thing to do in the end.
Bernie or Erik, why would you have turned them off in the first place. It can't be labor intensive to run the data base can it?
rfs ®
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| 47 | Ender
ID: 52438315
Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 10:14
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havenbros, that's essentially what Tuesday's prce change would be. There's no need to change on Monday only.
I reiterate, there is no reason to change format midstream. If they had said this at the beginning of the year, it would not be a problem. However, they did not, so the rules should remain as stated on day 1.
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| 48 | havenbros
Donor
ID: 170371814
Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 10:17
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One seemingly reasonable compromise here might be to have the trades for Fri, Sat, Sun and Mon aggregated on Monday so you get one price change for the entire ASB. This should appease those who want to achieve some specific result during the break, while minimizing the need for the rest of us to monitor daily price changes or for TSN to do anything over the weekend. Except for the possibility of an injury to a participant, there is no reason to expect prices to move more on any given day during the break. I'm not sure why segregating the Tuesday trades produces a more acceptable result than just lumping all 5 days together, but for some reason it seems more appropriate to have one price change for the break period and another for the day games resume.
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| 49 | Dude in Last Place
ID: 426351415
Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 10:19
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Upon reading the thread the first time I was under the impression that all the trades during the ASB will effect the first price change post-ASB. I don't see what is wrong with this other than the fact that someone waiting for a player to be cheaper due to gravity might only net a -30k gain.
Either way I don't really care. I paid 10 bucks (actually ~14 after money conversion). I'm having a good time and a 4 day rule change isn't going to kill anyone.
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| 50 | Dan
Donor
ID: 41838303
Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 10:23
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No, it isn't going to kill anyone! But it is the ethics behind the situation. Rules are rules, they are set out and not meant to be changed. That is what this is all about. And on top of that, there has been no formal announcement for all managers to see!!
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| 51 | kobewannabe
ID: 30120410
Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 10:31
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Where is Bernie or Erik? How come no response? It all comes down to strategy. You read the rules, you come up with strategy. You pay for the game and its rules you should be comfortable that the rules won't change. I think it is bad business. I need to bank some trades so hearing that money won't change doesn't hurt me much. But my strategy could be messed up with their change.
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| 52 | Ender
ID: 52438315
Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 11:22
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The relative impact of the change is meaningless. That sounds a lot like the ends justify the means to me. This is not about the impact, it is about priniciples. Tthe impact is only a factor when considering which rule should be changed, that's an after the fact decision based on an assumption that a rule should be changed. It really is as simple as whether a rule should be changed in the middle of a game. It didn't work on the playground when we were kids, it doesn't work at the poker table as adults, and simply isn't acceptable here either.
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| 53 | jumpball
Sustainer
ID: 33050298
Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 11:38
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looks like everyone is reading thie part of the rules:
"Price Changes - Price fluctuations will take place every day at 12PM ET - starting on the second day of the season (Tuesday, Oct. 30) - based upon the previous day of trading."
and ignoring this part:
"The Sporting News ("TSN") TSN reserves the right to amend these Official Rules at any time during the Game."
They have amended the rules for the ASB price changes. So deal with it.
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| 54 | Slowhand
Leader
ID: 110492611
Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 11:43
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Had a fairly lengthy post prepared but checked the thread before I posted it and decided to just say Ender hit the nail on the head.
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| 55 | Ender
ID: 52438315
Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 11:45
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Nothing like a good 'ole elastic clause huh? I guess I paid $17.95 for that rule too. I'm still opposed to a change, especially one broadcast to a limited audience and without justification.
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| 56 | gumby
ID: 559211110
Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 11:45
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so did jumpball. need to move on.
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| 57 | Mark L
Leader
ID: 4444938
Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 11:47
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gumby, as ever the hard-assed realist.
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| 58 | rockafellerskank
Donor
ID: 111649
Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 11:55
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jumpball is correct.....but,
What is at issue here for me is whether I, as a consumer, still want to do business with TSN. I have in the past stood up for TSN and Erik and Bernie, preferring to give them the benefit of the doubt.
This is not the first season that a rules change has been instituted well after the season started. Last year's 3-4-All season championship was affected (IMO) based on a rule 'change' that was tossed out in the next to lats week IIRC.
TSN's server ongoing issues and credibility issues come into play way to much for my taste. I play Yahoo and ESPN and CBS Sportsline games regularly and cannot recall ever having a rules change in mid-stream (although their rules have the same type of clause). I have never had issues with ESPN, Yahoo or CBS Sportsline games being routinely (if at all) unavailable.
I really enjoy the TSN format, but the headaches are getting to be bigger the enjoyment for me.
I'm bummed as I was looking forward to baseball. As of now, I doubt I'll be giving my C/C to TSN in the future.
rfs ®
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| 59 | walking small
Sustainer
ID: 59146115
Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 12:00
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Looks like TSN has the right to any changes to all rules at any time. My question is - why? What is the reasoning behind this change?
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| 60 | Lutefisker
Sustainer
ID: 33045260
Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 12:03
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ya jus gotta luv da small(world) print!!
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| 61 | Wonderer
ID: 119412
Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 12:09
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interesting that Erik B today has been all over the thread about rotoguru.com's world rank position but strangely has not made an appearance in here to discuss this problem...hmmm see no evil hear no evil seems to be his position on this.
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| 62 | Pilewort
Donor
ID: 250371618
Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 12:15
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naw, he just probably knows his arse is covered on this issue and prefers to move on.
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| 63 | Bernie H.
ID: 395452711
Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 12:28
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Okay, let me try to field all of this in one post.
First, we intended to suspend price updates simply to give users a break, much like the actual ASB gives the pro athletes a break. For years now we've gotten much feedback from users who prefer the short breather. Price updates are based upon trade activity; trade activity is based upon games; if there are no games, they ask us, why should there be price updates?
Second, whether or not we have had a history of inconsistency has no bearing on our effort to be consistent in the present and future. I hope that Erik's and my presence on this forum demonstrates that we have a renewed commitment to quality and consistency. We suspended price updates during this past summer's baseball ASB, we suspended them during this year's NHL ASB, and so for consistency's sake, we were going to do the same with hoops.
BUT, I understand the issue with not stating this policy in advance in the rules. For this reason, I'm willing to reconsider.
Contrary to what Bloody Geoff said (#28), this is not our game; it's your game. So I'm going to let you decide what we should do. Since there seems to be a lot of different opinions here, I'm going to take a vote in a new thread (http://rotoguru1.com/cgi-bin/mb/hoop/7261.shtml?1012847209), and then take action accordingly.
I hope you find this method fair.
Thanks,
Bernie, TSN
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| 64 | jumpball
Sustainer
ID: 33050298
Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 12:38
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You might notice that I will not be casting a vote -- I'm willing to play either way.
All I ask is that you tell me how it's going to be, and stick with it.
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| 65 | rockafellerskank
Donor
ID: 359283123
Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 13:49
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I think another reason to justify price changes during the ASB is that there are two games during the break: The All-Star Game and the Rookie-Soph Game (+ of course dunk, 3-point and 2-ball).
Although some above have argued that price changes may be negligible, maybe not..... what if a star gets injured? There would be a serious sell off. That kind of movement has to be accounted for to keep the integrity of the game.
another $0.02
rfs ®
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| 66 | joe suspect
Donor
ID: 441143311
Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 18:16
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OK, so now that we WILL have price changes, can anyone give me a good example of how to use an invalid roster to my advantage?
thanks.
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| 67 | Erik B.
ID: 239592612
Tue, Feb 05, 2002, 10:42
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Guys:
Was not trying to ignore this issue -- was just gathering as much information as possible to make a reasonable decision. I agree fully with everything Bernie wrote, and think, in the end, this was handled properly. Please feel free to email me with any questions/concerns that were not handled here: ebarmack@sportingnews.com.
-ESB
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| 68 | Ref
ID: 28045169
Fri, Feb 08, 2002, 10:24
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Sorry gentlemen for being unable to say my piece on this earlier. I've been out of town on a long roadtrip and just was told that there WILL be price changes at the ASB.
With all due respect to WAB, I agree with EriK B and Bernie's original intention. I don't want to argue with anyone but would simply let my feelings on this be known and why.
The ASB is a break. A break for the players and a break should also be incurred by the fantasy teams. There is no one playing so there should be very little activity occurring. The main players that will be affected are the gravity players and the players that were bought/sold the day before will likely go up or down a little as the masses try and play copycat for a day or two.
I don't understand the benefit of price changes during this period. I've read this thread and there isn't an argument that sways me. I agree that WAB's protest that rules were being changed midstream is not right--but I didn't think this was a change. I also thought there was no price changes during last year's break. I thought I was positive until Guru said there wasn't. But why would I think there was? I know there wasn't the years prior.
All of the trading would be captured on the reprice on the first day of games after the break.
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| 69 | Guru
ID: 330592710
Fri, Feb 08, 2002, 10:39
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Ref - I agree that there should not be repricings, and if this had been announced far enough in advance, I would have supported that posture. But the announcement was well after a lot of plans had been made, and it was also clear that this had already affected some roster moves that had already been made (or not made). As such, I could not support this last minute change.
BTW, there was no repricing break 2 years ago in Hoops either. So ref, your memory is faulty. Continuing to reprice through the NBA All Star break is totally consistent with past practice.
I'd much rather have a repricing hiatus. I just wish TSN would announce this at the beginning of the season if that is their intent. Hopefully next year they will.
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| 70 | Ref
ID: 28045169
Fri, Feb 08, 2002, 10:43
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All these years and seasons just run together :)
I've been told my eyes are faulty before--but never my memory!!! :)
I understand your point, Guru. Same goes for WAB and Prez, etc. I wish someone would have caught that in the rules earlier in the year to bring it to the forefront.
My team is standing pat--even though there is a trade that probably should be made today--but I'll eat my losses so I can have all the up to date info before moving forward.
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| 71 | Padkee
Leader
ID: 117381414
Fri, Feb 08, 2002, 11:03
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Ref - No play on words intended when you said "before moving FORWARD"?
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| 72 | Ref
ID: 28045169
Fri, Feb 08, 2002, 11:29
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*laugh* no padkee, no pun intended. In fact, I always think, find out all the rules and parameters and play and stratgize within them--using them as a base. That makes WAB and Guru's posts even more pertinent. While I still dislike, the price updates during the break, I must adapt as must we all. Therefore, I made a move that will help my squad--even though I didn't want to do it. But I felt compelled since I would be making the move Tues. morning anyhow.
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| 73 | Erik B.
ID: 44811314
Fri, Feb 08, 2002, 11:32
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Guru:
I agree with your point. On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd rate this as a "2" -- we were trying to do something that was generally fair. But the best solution going forward is to post an All-Star break policy at the start of the game. We will do this for baseball.
-ESB
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