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Subject: Bernie or Erik: Can You Help This Guy Out?
Posted by: Micheal
- [12744225] Sat, Nov 23, 2002, 08:06
He seems to have pulled a PlasmaX and sold 2 guys but not leaving himself enough cash to purchase the 2nd player. The same thing happened last year and the situation was corrected by giving the manager an extra trade to correct his mistake. Another example for a "reverse last trade" button to be added to the game.
Another PlasmaX |
| 1 | PGunn
ID: 251028715
Sat, Nov 23, 2002, 09:28
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Why should he be given another trade? If he gets one, I would like one too.
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| 2 | Farn
Donor
ID: 7822711
Sat, Nov 23, 2002, 09:31
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If we are signing up for extra trades I could use 2. I am not happy with the way Buckner is playing and would like to get out of him.
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| 3 | Tree
ID: 1910511219
Sat, Nov 23, 2002, 09:33
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i remember this debate last year...
for me, the reason he should get a trade is this simple...he paid 20 bucks to play the game...a stupid screw up like this could ruin his entire season...
i believe last year, the person who screwed up was given a very specific way to use it - he had to reacquire one of the guys he accidently dumped, or something like that - *AND* the following week he was only given 3 trades...
it's called customer service PGunn,
peace,
Tree
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| 4 | PGunn
ID: 251028715
Sat, Nov 23, 2002, 09:34
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Yea Jelani McCoy DNP'd on me the other day. Can I have an extra trade because of that?
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| 5 | jedman
Sustainer
ID: 40746414
Sat, Nov 23, 2002, 09:49
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With the new screens that come up when you make trades, the excuses for the above stupidity are a lot less and I don't think TSN should have to make accomodations in cases like the above.
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| 6 | jedman
Sustainer
ID: 40746414
Sat, Nov 23, 2002, 09:52
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Tell the guy to got to rotoguru.com and learn how to use the assimilator and make his trades in there first. Then pay a donation to Guru for this wonderful tool.
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| 7 | smartone
Donor
ID: 29135714
Sat, Nov 23, 2002, 10:03
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i guess that none of you guys were stuck with a 9-player team like I was last Baseball season, when I could not finish a trade because the telephony lines in my area were cut right after I sold the player... :-(
i know that this is not the same situation, but here, the "manager" doesn't compain about a DNP of a single player but about a technical error, which will result in 40 DNP's (4 days without points!)
give him the extra trade and take it away from him next week, it's only a game!
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| 8 | c-dawg
ID: 439172915
Sat, Nov 23, 2002, 10:05
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extra trades should not be given out. mistakes are part of the game. there would be a lot of unhappy people in smallworld if this extra trade was granted.
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| 9 | MJ
ID: 528511117
Sat, Nov 23, 2002, 10:16
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I think he should be giving a extra trade and only gets 3 trades next week.
Also should should ONLY be able to pick up one of the players he sold.
Maybe TSN can make that trade for him that way he ONLY uses the trade for the mistake he made.
It's a game and mistakes are part of the game but I also feel that since TSN has changed the system that you need to pay $200 now (verus free 2yrs ago) out of customer service they should give him 1 trade.
Not EVERY situation deserves an extra trade and some of you made some DUMB points as to why you should be giving a trade. Give him a trade and lets continue to have fun.
Just My 2 Cents
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| 10 | PGunn
ID: 251028715
Sat, Nov 23, 2002, 10:26
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Sorry, but when we are paying money to play and there are cash prizes being given out, you're statements that "it's just a game" doesn't work for me. How would you like to be in this guys division? I know it's only 40 bucks for winning your division but at least you'll be getting your entry fee back if you do win your division.
If you make a mistake, unfortunately you have to pay for it. That's the way it works in life and that's the way it should work here.
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| 11 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 1310102117
Sat, Nov 23, 2002, 10:57
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For once I have to agree with PGunn. It sucks to be in that position, but in a pay game there has to be more responsibility on the manager.
pd
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| 12 | Ender
ID: 13443221
Sat, Nov 23, 2002, 11:18
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We asked for the price warning last year to prevent this. We got it. Let the seller beware IMO. I paid the same $$$ money he did to play and it makes the game less fun for me if people who make silly mistakes get an extra trade to fix them. The fact that he only gets 3 next week is irrelevant to me. The minute he gets 5 this week and I only get 4 it is no longer fair.
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| 13 | J
Leader
ID: 49346417
Sat, Nov 23, 2002, 11:23
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simple fix - TSN should impliment some kind of feature where you can undo any trades before the freeze for that day.
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| 14 | Flying Polack
ID: 168212121
Sat, Nov 23, 2002, 11:33
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Another simple fix. If you have $13 million to buy 2 players you shouldn't be able to spend more than $12.5 on one player.
The guy definitely screwed up, but TSN doesn't do anything to help anyone avoid that mistake.
Give him an extra trade and make a couple changes making this situation impossible.
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| 15 | Flying Polack
ID: 168212121
Sat, Nov 23, 2002, 11:36
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Actually Ender, we asked for more than a price warning last year. The price warning was the only fix they chose to implement.
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| 16 | RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 211013916
Sat, Nov 23, 2002, 11:45
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I liked the "If invalid, revert roster back to last valid state" idea. Dummy-proof.
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| 17 | GolfFreak
Donor
ID: 4910252214
Sat, Nov 23, 2002, 11:55
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i would like to see a screen pop-up that would say trade wont go thought due to the fact
A. you can't add Dumbass
B. you would have less then 500k left to pick-up a player
C. Please donate to Roto.com and start using assimilator
i dont think its fair that the trade would go though and not leave enough cash left over for a 500k guy
and to be locked out till tuesday is crap.
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| 18 | louky
Sustainer
ID: 527283021
Sat, Nov 23, 2002, 12:02
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I like "A" GolfFreak
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| 19 | DissFunkShun
ID: 31015120
Sat, Nov 23, 2002, 12:04
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Maybe this person should consider another hobby like basic math.
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| 20 | Micheal
ID: 12744225
Sat, Nov 23, 2002, 13:04
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I don't see this situation any different than the PlasmaX situation (start @ #104). Even Nature Boy received an extra trade because "someone else had his password and made trades in error".
Yes, the trading process is supposed to be even more dummy proof, but there are still dummies out there. The game was a pay game last year and he still got an extra trade to drop and pick up whoever he wanted. TSN set a precedent by giving PlasmaX an extra trade. What reason would they have to deny this guy?
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| 21 | DissFunkShun
ID: 31015120
Sat, Nov 23, 2002, 13:33
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After reading that thread about PlasmaX, I have 2 questions. Where exactly is rural Ararat? & Which hair dressers college did he attend? :)
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| 22 | smartone
Donor
ID: 29135714
Sat, Nov 23, 2002, 19:16
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just shift his trades (maybe he will be forced to wave another trade) and let him compete
he is dumb, right (posts 10,11 etc) so he won't win anyway...
would you give an extra trade to Sanfordors/Blackjack/JCS/etc?!??!
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| 23 | Smackdown
Donor
ID: 51054300
Sat, Nov 23, 2002, 19:27
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As long as he is not in the top 100 I could care less!
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| 24 | Ender
ID: 13443221
Sat, Nov 23, 2002, 19:43
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What an ignorant statement. Forgive me, Smackdown, but you are missing the whole point if that's your criterion. I can name plaenty of people currently outside the Top 100 that I cetainly don't want to have 1 more trade than me.
I still say let the seller beware. Some compelling suggestions for safeguards have been made, but none of them change the fact that it was his mistake. The only way I would agree with him receiving an extra trade is if it made him ineligible for prizes, division or otherwise.
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| 25 | Burnettsville
ID: 1410432319
Sat, Nov 23, 2002, 20:52
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Smackdown, last year I was probably around 700th at this point in the season and ended up finishing 10th.
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| 26 | MNG@college
ID: 117422015
Sat, Nov 23, 2002, 21:32
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I think it would all make everyone happier if there was an option where you could use a guy as a filler which the person could name anyone (James Bond, Santa Claus, etc.) Ie have a guy that will be free but won't get you any points but still give you a valid roster. Therefore if someone left themselves in a postition such as PlasmaX's, they wouldn't completely out of the running and everyone else would be happy and there wouldn't be so much complaining. Trust me having this feature would help a lot.
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| 27 | Blooki
ID: 6838118
Sat, Nov 23, 2002, 21:51
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Not a good idea. Some people may simply opt to intentionally buy that player if they're a couple of TSND short of buying some other stud they want. Don't like the idea that a 10-player roster isn't required.
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| 28 | Micheal
ID: 12744225
Sat, Nov 23, 2002, 22:08
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Personally I feel the same way about this situation as I did about the PlasmaX situation, that he shouldn't get an extra trade. My point is that they set a precedent with PlasmaX by giving him an extra trade when he clicked the wrong player then confirmed his stupidity by clicking the "are you sure" button. So why shouldn't this guy get one? They've done it before.
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| 29 | Ender
ID: 13443221
Sat, Nov 23, 2002, 22:18
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You don't have to make the same mistake twice...
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| 30 | PlasmaX
ID: 131022201
Sun, Nov 24, 2002, 00:59
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:)
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| 31 | DissFunkShun
ID: 31015120
Sun, Nov 24, 2002, 01:33
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Hey Plasma, do you have a brother named Racer?
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| 32 | smartone
Donor
ID: 29135714
Mon, Nov 25, 2002, 11:44
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by the way, does anyone know how this little-not-so-important story ended?
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| 33 | Tree
ID: 599393013
Mon, Nov 25, 2002, 13:13
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i think it ended the same way the story about that guy with all that extra $$$ ended...in some way we don't know...
peace,
Tree
unless i missed something...
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| 34 | Bernie H.
ID: 01017112
Mon, Nov 25, 2002, 14:15
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We won't be giving him an extra trade.
I hope everyone can understand that it's a tough decision for us. On one hand we're in the business of showing our customers a fun time, but on the other hand we have a responsibility to run a fair game. Often these two initiatives conflict.
We've given mercy trades in the past, in order to keep our honest managers happy and in the game, but due to the uproar that occurred last year, we now have a "zero-tolerance" policy. Managers who come to us for a handout will be turned away.
I hope everyone understands.
Thanks,
Bernie, TSN
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| 35 | RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 42121814
Mon, Nov 25, 2002, 14:33
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As the way it should be (now, I just hope this doesn't come back and bite me in the arse!)
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| 36 | PGunn
ID: 251028715
Mon, Nov 25, 2002, 14:34
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Good decision.
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| 37 | Peter N.
Donor
ID: 481019247
Mon, Nov 25, 2002, 14:44
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Absolute right decision Bernie
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| 38 | biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 5310281417
Mon, Nov 25, 2002, 14:46
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Bernie - what about all the great technical ideas for how this could be completely avoided?
Planning to institute any in the future?
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| 39 | c-dawg
ID: 439172915
Mon, Nov 25, 2002, 15:39
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good call bernie
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| 40 | Flying Polack
ID: 48914212
Mon, Nov 25, 2002, 15:44
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I can't really argue with the decision, but I think TSN is equally at fault. Bernie and/or Erik, TSN has a responsibility to protect us from ourselves whenever possible. Proactive customer services is much better than reactive
You guys were aware of the problem last season and didn't fix it. For the life of me I don't understand why.
Yes, everyone playing this game should be able to do simple math, and when making transactions you should always buy the cheapest guys first. But the fact of the matter is; it doesn’t always happen that way. Whether someone is plain stupid, or just rushed for time, it doesn't matter. The possibility of this situation should not exist.
I was very satisfied with the game this last season. But I had increased expectations for this season, and so far you have not lived up to my expectations. Your inability to correct this problem, and the tardiness of the IPO’s has left a bad taste in my mouth.
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| 41 | PGunn
ID: 251028715
Mon, Nov 25, 2002, 15:47
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Yea, Burke at 2 million to start was a joke.
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| 42 | Guru
ID: 330592710
Mon, Nov 25, 2002, 15:52
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I agree that this situation should never have been allowed to happen. I've mentioned several times over the past few years that one of the most important changes that TSN could make would be to allow trades to be undone prior to the freeze period. This would not only protect managers from their own carelessness (or stupidity), but would also alleviate the need to postpone trading until the last moment. Frankly, the latter benefit is much more compelling than the former.
I understand that this type of enhancement is probably not a trivial programming exercise, but I also know that it can be done if TSN wants to do it. And it certainly isn't rocket science. Consequently, I don't understand why it hasn't been done yet, given that the idea has been floated for quite awhile now.
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| 43 | RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 211013916
Mon, Nov 25, 2002, 16:22
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Actually, Burke as an IPO, was fairly priced at 2 Million, even could be argued as underpriced. Look at the people who were producing what he was (the 12 to 15 SWP/G range). Only Blount and McCoy are cheaper. The rest are 2.2 to 5.1 million. Should he have been 500K at the start of the season? Obviously yes. As an IPO, Stallworld did a correct slotting (same way they base their original prices, based on last season numbers) by with current year numbers.
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| 44 | skinneej
Sustainer
ID: 40625911
Mon, Nov 25, 2002, 18:29
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RSF, just posted the same opinion in the IPO thread before I saw your post here. Also, I expect Hawkins will be a little more than 2.00 if they add him in the next week. His current average is 13.1, and should increase over the next few games.
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| 45 | c-dawg
ID: 439172915
Tue, Nov 26, 2002, 15:49
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bottom line is be careful and make sure you know what you are doing when you make trades. Part of being a top ranked smallworld owner is being careful so you do not make mistakes. If you are not capable of making a trade properly why should you be given another chance.
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| 46 | Flying Polack
ID: 48914212
Wed, Nov 27, 2002, 11:27
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BUTT- I would like to hear comments from Erik or Bernie re: posts 40 and 42.
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| 47 | c-dawg
ID: 439172915
Wed, Nov 27, 2002, 11:41
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i was trying to think of a way that would allow a user to make a mistake and not have it ruin his season, and this is what i came up with. Each manager should be given a special trade bank with just three trades in it at the beginning of the year. The trades can be used at the managers discresion, but obviosly should be saved in the event of a mistake. There would be no way to add to these three trades and once they are used up, they are gone.
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| 48 | Ender
ID: 52438315
Wed, Nov 27, 2002, 12:52
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They do that. You are given 4 trades on the first freeze.
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| 49 | Tree
ID: 599393013
Wed, Nov 27, 2002, 13:13
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to me, it seems like an "undo trade" option might be the best one. but you can only undo the most recent one, not go back 2 or 3 or 4..
peace,
Tree
no insightful tag today
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| 50 | Guru
ID: 330592710
Wed, Nov 27, 2002, 13:18
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Tree - I disagree. You should be able to undo any trade made since the previous freeze.
In fact, I'd suggest that if you selected the "undo" option, it should automatically reset your roster to its state as of the previous freeze. That would be the simplest approach.
Why not?
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| 51 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 89321319
Wed, Nov 27, 2002, 13:35
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Maybe Tree is talking about trades older than one day? Trades previous to the last freeze should stand, I'd imagine.
pd
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| 52 | Tree
ID: 599393013
Wed, Nov 27, 2002, 14:04
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hmmm...what Guru said...
i think that's a sort of compromise, and a dang good one. either an all or nothing - you undo EVERY trade since the previous freeze, or you undo none of them.
me like,
Tree
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| 53 | Guru
ID: 330592710
Wed, Nov 27, 2002, 14:13
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I don't really see it as a compromise. Just a processing simplification.
If you did 2 trades since the last freeze, you would undo both of them. You'd also get the two trades back as available trades. If you wanted to keep one and undo only one, then just retrade the one you wanted to keep.
It's essentially saying that no trades are final until after the next freeze.
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| 54 | Ref
Donor
ID: 28045169
Wed, Nov 27, 2002, 14:18
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Guru, I've been preaching that as well. I think we should also be able to trade in advance. Your trades don't become "locked" or "final" until that freeze takes place for that particular day. Obviously, trading in advance would take a good deal more coding than your situation, but look how football is done on other sites. You put in your lineup and when the freeze comes--you can't change it.
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| 55 | Tree
ID: 599393013
Wed, Nov 27, 2002, 14:36
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compromise was a bad word. in fact, despite the degree in communications, i'm not sure what the right word is... :o/ must be the turkey on the brain..
Tree
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| 56 | Erik B.
ID: 4710212717
Wed, Nov 27, 2002, 18:29
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Guru:
We've pitched that idea back and forth. It's not a bad idea, one that I've weighed seriously, but during our last iteration of this idea, we nixed it because we felt that it would lead to a bad cycle of customer service problems -- you know, the manager who "proposes" a trade, comes back to the site, experiences some site problem, can't undo it, etc. For the time being, we think it's a can of worms that may (please read "may") lead to additional problems.
The biggest innovation we instituted in most of our games is the ability to buy and sell a player at the same time. I know it seems like trading problems still happen, but since this innovation, we've seen an 80 percent reduction in trade-related c. service problems.
ESB
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| 57 | Guru
ID: 330592710
Wed, Nov 27, 2002, 19:26
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Erik - I respectfully disagree.
Frankly, I think the buy-sell was a very minor enhancement. Perhaps it helped idiot-proof the process for some, but for the serious player, it really doesn't add much value.
What I most object to is the need to balance waiting until the last moment to make trades (to benefit from any late breaking info) against the risk of server difficulties. I would think it would benefit you if so many teams didn't wait until the last moment to trade.
I don't understand why there is any difference between the manager who can't "undo" at the last minute vs. the one who can't "do" at the last minute.
As I've said before, I think this feature would be the single most useful thing you could add to any (and all) of your games.
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| 59 | xpdurmind
Donor
ID: 9922123
Wed, Nov 27, 2002, 22:57
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Erik/Bernie
You guys have been great as far as dealing with customer issues other than those related to trades.But I would have to side with Guru on this one.I understand the customer service aspect of it, but people who make mistakes should live with it. They will learn.
Managers being able to reset their trades before 12 pm EST is an excellent idea.You need to have one set of rules that will not be broken due to an error/technical difficulties/whatever on the manager's end.
You might be providing good customer service to one manager when allowing him/her to make/change a trade after the deadline,(e.g. you allowed Twary on 11/3 to trade Tmac to Payton after the deadline. His story seemed weak to me!), But what actually happens is that you loose at least 100 other customers.
Like I said: One set of rules;make them fool proof(ability to reset before deadline);No Exceptions.
If my electricity goes out in my house, are you going to let me trade after the deadline?( it happened to me 2 weeks ago close to the deadline. I lived with it and started trading at night!)
Last night I made 2 trades, when I came to make the third I found myself 20k short from being able to get Nowitzki.(didn't update a player's price on my Excel SS). I settled for Marion, eventhough I had planned on getting 5 games from that spot the following week on top of the point differential between both forwards for the week.
Can I redo?...A reset woulv'e helped!
I support your decision on not giving him another trade,but you have to be consistent.You gave Twarpy one. Can you explain that?.......
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| 60 | Micheal
ID: 12744225
Wed, Nov 27, 2002, 23:07
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I hope everyone can understand that it's a tough decision for us. On one hand we're in the business of showing our customers a fun time, but on the other hand we have a responsibility to run a fair game. Often these two initiatives conflict.
How is letting a manager trade after the deadline running a fair game? If I accidently set my alarm to 1100PM instead of 1100AM and sleep through the deadline, can I still trade for that day if I e-mail you?
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| 61 | Tree
ID: 1910511219
Thu, Nov 28, 2002, 07:33
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precedent setting is a scary thing.
so is my spelling.
Tree
happy gobble, let's celebrate oppression
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| 62 | Micheal
ID: 4110512714
Thu, Nov 28, 2002, 09:16
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At least you know the differrence between "precedent" and "president".
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| 63 | deepsnapper
Sustainer
ID: 5210561414
Thu, Nov 28, 2002, 10:45
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The hassle I'm experiencing trading since the buy/sell was implemented is dealing with the multi-positional player who you're wanting to move between slots in a transaction in order to do the trade.
IE: Ginobili (G) needs to be traded for Stoudemire (F). I need to switch Newble (G/F) from a F=>G in order to make the trade. As it stands now, I've got to sell sell Gimobili, move Newble, and buy Stoudemire as 3 transactions since the system won't allow me to move Newble in the buy/sell process.
It's certainly a way to get an open position on your roster that's forced on you by the system, not your trading pattern.
Just throwing it out and seeing what sticks.
The Guru's Trade reset suggestion sounds great. Of course I liked the one about seeing trades on the division page too. (;-Þ)
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