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Subject: OT: NBA's Most Underpaid Players
Posted by: F GUMP
- [352161623] Fri, Sep 19, 2003, 16:37
While awaiting the start of the NBA season, some buddies and I have been looking at the questions of underpaid and overpaid players in the NBA. It stirred enough interest that I am throwing it here for debate/discussion, if anyone here has opinions and wants to chime in.
Who are the most UNDERPAID players in the NBA for this coming season?
In order to answer that, you have to define what you mean by UNDERPAID and how you would define it. So for these purposes, here are the definitive rules (in this discussion):
(1) No player in his 1st 3 years can be included. Til that point, they are on rookie contracts with no possibility of free agency.
(2) "Most underpaid" is according to a strict dollar comparison. How much were they paid, and how much SHOULD they be paid? Eliminate the 50%, 40% etc concepts, etc: just raw dollars.
(3) The amount they SHOULD be paid is for this year. You can toss in a bit more if they have upside potential. But nothing for reputation, past accomplishments, etc (except as a determiner of how they likely will perform this year).
(4) Salary scale:
This is a bit subjective, but there are areas that can be determined as to Normal Pay once you define a persons ability. Here is what I would suggest is the NBA pay based on ability:
(a) Top player - Shaq - 26.5M ...so that is tops
(b) Superstars - this is the group of perennial All-stars, probably 12-15, that impact almost every game ...should be 11-14M because a whole slew of Superstars get paid in this range: including Dirk, Kobe, Marbury, RAllen, AI, Kidd, McGrady, JOneal, Pierce, etc
(c) There are 2 I see that are inbetween the Superstar and Shaq in my book, clearly above the Normal Superstars: TDuncan and KGarnett. They go in between Shaq and Superstars, with TD being higher in my book.
(d) Solid star/borderline All-star, etc ... maybe 8-10
(e) Solid starter/sometime star/strong 6th starter/makes some difference .... maybe 5-8
(f) Strong bench player, solid player, maybe starter but not special ....4-6
(g) Scrubs, others ... 1-3
I will post my list of who I think are the 10 MOST UNDERPAID NBA PLAYERS in another post. |
| 1 | F GUMP
ID: 352161623
Fri, Sep 19, 2003, 18:32
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Here is my list, and explanations of my evaluations of value.
1. Tim Duncan ... With Shaq at 26.5 and Superstars at 11-14, I placed KG at $18M and TD's value at $21.5M (he carried the Spurs to the title last year, and has multiple MVPs, and is still young).... UNDERPAID 8.8
2. Karl Malone .... No longer a superstar. He wont get the numbers this year, but that will be due partly to teammates, partly to ability. Old. I see him as a notch down in Category D, value $9.0M .... UNDERPAID 7.5
3. Ben Wallace ....Definite Superstar, only 29, defines rebounding and defense - lack of O is a minus. Value $12.0M ... UNDERPAID 6.5
4. Gary Payton ... Is he a Superstar? Or just below? This was a tough call for me, and the fact he is getting up in age tipped the scale to an "almost" superstar in my book, but close: value $10.5M..UNDERPAID 5.6
5. Kenyon Martin ... Very good, sometime All-Star but not superstar in my book, may get better but not sure, value $10.0M ... UNDERPAID 4.9
6. Steve Nash .... Sometime All-Star. He is a classic PG ala Stockton and still young. But Defense and strength keep him from Superstar level. He would score more on most other teams. Value $10.25M .... UNDERPAID 4.5
7. Jamal Magloire ... effective center, young age, pretty good numbers already but needs more O, has an upside. Level E/F, value $5.4M ... UNDERPAID 3.7
8. Sam Cassell ...not sure if he is category D or E, he has been an All-Star in the past cause of numbers but has a rep for selfish PG play and weak defense, and has been traded a lot ...very solid in many ways, though, so I snuck him into Level D, value $8.55M .... UNDERPAID 3.3
9. Bobby Jackson ... good 6th man, but he has only shown he can give backup numbers (the classic 6th starter would put up starters numbers while coming off the bench), value $6.0M .... UNDERPAID 3.1
10, Michael Redd ... young, has produced SOME numbers but not much more than a BJackson yet, value $6.0M .... UNDERPAID 3.0
Others I considered closely and the numbers I gave them:
Stojakovic (V 8.8, U 2.55), Najera (V 5.5 U 2.1), JHoward (V 6.8, U 1.9), Hudson (V 4.3, U 1.8), Mobley (V 6.5, U 1.1), MRose (V 6.0, U 1.1)
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| 2 | Ender
Donor
ID: 13443221
Fri, Sep 19, 2003, 22:28
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No OT needed on these to threads. It's the hoops forum! :)
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| 3 | F GUMP
ID: 352161623
Sat, Sep 20, 2003, 10:09
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Ender - thanks :) But I figured that since this doesnt say a thing about Fantasy Value, it was a bit off the norm for this forum.
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| 4 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 30792616
Sun, Sep 21, 2003, 11:19
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It would be of some help to have the salaries to work with.
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| 5 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 30792616
Sun, Sep 21, 2003, 11:23
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I'd have to throw in Illgauskas ($13.5), the young backbone of a Cleveland team on the way up.
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| 6 | F GUMP
ID: 352161623
Mon, Sep 22, 2003, 21:43
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PD, you think Ilgauskas is UNDER-paid at 13.5M??? I dont see him as worth more than Dirk, Kobe, Marbury, RAllen, AIverson, Kidd, McGrady, JOneal, Pierce, etc - all of whom are paid in the general $11-14M area.
Salaries are here NBA Player Salary Listings by Team 2003-2008
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| 7 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 30792616
Tue, Sep 23, 2003, 09:11
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He's worth more to his team than any of the others. Without him the Cavs literally have no game--people would come to see James but he won't be altogether successful. Also, I believe those are base salary numbers. Kidd's making a lot more than $13 mill from the Nets, even without endorsements from others!
The link is the same I gave in my post, BTW.
pd
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| 8 | Ender
Donor
ID: 10833178
Tue, Sep 23, 2003, 09:33
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I don't think I would call Ilgauskas underpaid. I do think he is under-rated. Ricky Davis et al would have been far less effective last year if other teams didn't have to respect the big man in the middle.
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| 9 | culdeus
Donor
ID: 5480118
Tue, Sep 23, 2003, 09:36
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Some of those guys are at the end of a contract where the did well. (See Nash)
What is the max contract? I don't think Duncan can be paid the total you propose.
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| 10 | F GUMP
ID: 352161623
Tue, Sep 23, 2003, 20:22
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PD ...Ilgauskas is hurt a LOT and at his best he STILL isnt on a par with the top 12-15 players in the NBA.
PD ...re Kidd he is making 13,152,000 this year. All salary comparisons are for this years reported salary.
CUL ...the max contracts varies, according to length of service in the NBA. I think the limit on length is 10 years.Re Duncan (or any of the others), I wasnt proposing a raise, but rather i was stating who was paid a lot less than value. Duncan indeed is not eligible for a bigger contract, but he is certainly way underpaid - which was ny point
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| 11 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 30792616
Tue, Sep 23, 2003, 20:44
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Gump, don't let perceptions cloud your judgement. Ill played 81 games last year, more than nearly every guy you've listed. He did have foot problems two years ago.
I don't want this to get bigger than it needs to be, though. The question wasn't whether he's an elite player (he's not--a top second tier player but not elite). The question was whether he's underpaid: Given his value to the team, I believe so.
Also, "salary" does not include achievement bonuses. If Kidd makes only $13,152K from the Nets I'll take down my Joumana poster.
pd
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| 12 | Rubalamp
ID: 6615911
Tue, Sep 23, 2003, 23:43
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Perm Dude, just say it "I'm Wrong!"
It is hard, I know, but claiming that you are wrong is easier than defending that statement with anyone who knows anything about basketball, like that round orange thing is a basketball. There is no way to argue that a guy getting 13.5 mil is underpaid, when you even admit he is not a top tier star. As for his importance to the team, you are still talking about a man that could not get his team into the Playoffs in the East, in fact they had the worst record. You put Garnett or Duncan on any team in the East, they make the playoffs hands down. They are worth top billing, Ilgauskas is not in that class.
I would even go as far to say that in fact, he is OVER paid. You are arguing a ridiculously, indefendable point. You can continue to try if you would like...
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| 13 | CanEHdian Pride
Sustainer
ID: 428591114
Tue, Sep 23, 2003, 23:47
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PD, I'm not really following your logic. Well, I guess I am but I find it odd that of all the players that are extremely valuable to their teams you picked Zyd as your example of an underpaid player.
Tracy McGrady makes just a shade over 13 M and single handedly guided his team to the brink of the Eastern Conference Championship series. Wouldn't he be a better example then Zyd?
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| 14 | CanEHdian Pride
Sustainer
ID: 428591114
Tue, Sep 23, 2003, 23:54
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I'd also add Jamal Mashburn to that list (8.525). To be honest I still think he'll be underpaid in 2007 (10.850).
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| 15 | Micheal
ID: 216502320
Wed, Sep 24, 2003, 08:55
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Pride
When has Orlando been on the brink of the Eastern Conf championship since TMac has been there? Haven't they been booted in the first round every year that he's been there?
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| 16 | cEHp @ school
ID: 398282410
Wed, Sep 24, 2003, 11:37
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Opps,
You're right, I thought they took the Pistons to Game 7 in the second round of the playoffs last year.
Still the fact remains, he did it last year almost entirely on his own.
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| 17 | Micheal
ID: 34540920
Wed, Sep 24, 2003, 11:50
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I don't think that any of these guys are under paid. The league minimum is $366,931 for this year and that is for someone with 0 years in the NBA.
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| 18 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 30792616
Wed, Sep 24, 2003, 11:50
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Ha! That's true, Michael. These guys are doing OK.
pd
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| 19 | F GUMP
ID: 352161623
Wed, Sep 24, 2003, 12:52
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PD .."Kidd's making a lot more than $13 mill from the Nets, even without endorsements from others" ... My post is about NBA contracts. And Kidd does make 13,152,000 this year.
PD ..."Also, "salary" does not include achievement bonuses. If Kidd makes only $13,152K from the Nets I'll take down my Joumana poster."
If you are a man of your word, start taking it down, then ..lol
Here is why I can be certain, and why you are obligated to start your poster removal ..lol ... Kidd makes the max he is allowed to make, every year of his contract. He cant get another cent, so a performance bonus of any kind is impossible and not allowed in his deal. FACT.
PD ...re Ilgauskas -
(1) Health: it is true that he played 81 games last year. But, that is not rare - many players play all 82, or 80/81. They play every game if they are good - it isnt like baseball, they dont get a night off here and there. Re his health, he has a very spotty history: in his 5 seasons, his number of games each year was - 82, 5, 24, 62, 81. He was never benched, just hurt. That is not a flawless health record, and it has always been the same basic problem over and over. Maybe it is cured, but no one is yet confident in that.
(2) Value: he put up 17 pts 7 rebs last year. Those are good numbers, but I dont think he is even worth what he is paid, much less underpaid. (Worth is by comparison to what others produce for the same contract.) He does mean a lot to his team. But EVERY excellent player means a lot to THEIR team, too. He is paid like a 20p-10r player, and he isnt.
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| 20 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 30792616
Wed, Sep 24, 2003, 12:55
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Fair enough. I'm probably overstating his value to the team relative to others' values to their team (TMac comes to mind--despite their lack of playoff progress).
I think Ill will continue to do well this next year (last year throw in his 2 blocks/game with the other numbers), so I should probably just not mention him again in the hopes he'll still be around in the 3-4 rounds...
:0
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