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Subject: RotoGuru Invitational Hoops Challenge - Intro
Posted by: Guru
- [330592710] Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 09:58
The list of managers for the 1st (Annual) RotoGuru Invitational Hoops Challenge has been set. This was a very difficult process, and I took a great deal of time and expended a lot of effort to make sure that my final list had a good rationale. Here is the alphabetical list of 12 managers (by Gurupie handle) who have accepted my invitation:
blackjackis21
coldwater coyotes
Dave R
Doug
Edgar/Swish City (collaborative effort)
Guru
Hoops Klyce
Lionprideguy
Philflyboy
Rand
rockafellerskank
ukula
In making selections, I considered all of the following criteria:
1. Demonstrated excellence in some Hoops format
2. RotoGuru Hall of Fame listing
3. GuruPatron support
4. Forum decorum – helpfulness, comportment, and value to the well-being of this message forum
5. Geography – the NBA has a global following, and I wanted this league to have international representation
6. Qualification to complete in a different sport
The last item is an important one, as I plan to offer similar opportunities in both baseball and football. To provide maximum opportunities, no one who is chosen for Hoops will be invited to participate in a challenge league for another sport (other than me, of course). Some qualified Hoops managers also have demonstrated expertise in other sports, and I bypassed some individuals with the expectation of inviting them in another sport.
I did consider expanding the league to 14 teams, but ultimately decided against it for this inaugural season. It is, however, possible that in other sports or future years the number of teams will be expanded.
Every team on the final list is managed by a GuruPatron. While I did not initially establish this as a requirement, it soon became clear that there were more than enough GuruPatrons to complete a highly qualified league. This is one way that I can give back something to those who have freely given to support the RotoGuru site.
There is absolutely no question that many highly qualified Gurupies were not invited. This is regrettable, but unavoidable. If you were not invited, you should not feel slighted in any way. You have lots of company. And I may be planning to invite you for another sport. But I had a strong rationale for inviting every manager on this last, and I am fully confident that this is a excellent group to launch this inaugural challenge.
It is very likely that this Challenge will become an annual undertaking. The top finishers will most likely be invited back next year. The bottom finishers may not. Where that line is drawn has yet to be determined, but this will be one way to keep everyone – even those who get off to a disappointing start – actively competing throughout the season.
Some of you have suggested setting up “qualifying” leagues, with the idea that the winners of these leagues will be invited to fill an opening in next year’s RIHC. I am open to this possibility, and without committing to anything at this point, I encourage you to pursue this. If you decide to set up or join one of these leagues, let me suggest that you use an 8 category roto-scoring format (FG%, FT%, 3pt, ast, reb, blk, stl, pts – and not HTH scoring). I will leave the other details to you.
Discussion on rules to follow shortly.
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| 52 | Guru
ID: 330592710
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 12:41
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The rationale for forcing an IR pickup to first go on the active roster is to avoid allowing people to use their IR slots to simply warehouse a player for a rainy day.
If we force IR players to be activated when they go off the IR, then this is less of an issue. Either that player gets released back into the waiver pool, or else another player gets released.
In some leagues that I've been in, the primary activity around opening day is to for all managers to fill up their IR slots with players who will start the year injured.
I guess my suggestion would be to allow managers to pick up an injured player and IR him immediately, as long as there is also a requirement to activate a player within 7 days of his removal from the NBA's IR. The latter requirement will have to be manually enforced. If you forget, there is no penalty until someone points it out, at which time it must occur ASAP.
Question: If we use Yahoo, is it even possible to add a player directly to an IR slot without first clearing out room on the active roster? Probably not, since I think Yahoo doesn't let you assign the position (or IR) until after the player is added to the bench. If so, then most times, any injured pickup would first have to dislodge an active player - which provides further protection against indiscriminate warehousing.
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| 53 | rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 27652109
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 12:52
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In Yahoo you must have a roster spot (1 of 14) available for the player. Once added, you can move him to DL and add another player to your team -- even another DL. In Yahoo, all adds done today appear on your roster tomorrow anyway. So, the kind of "wait" one day -- kinda.
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| 54 | Rand
Donor
ID: 364152215
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 12:54
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No, Yahoo doesn't let you put an injured player
directly from the waiver wire into the IR slot,
you must sacrifice a player first.
Guru, just sent you back an email with the info
you requested.
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| 55 | skinneej
Leader
ID: 40625911
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 13:39
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The last two posts are correct concerning IR players in Yahoo. A player must be on your roster before he can be designated for the IR spot. In order to pick that player up off waivers, you must have at least one spot available on your active roster (starters plus bench slots). After the pickup, that player is not on your active roster until the next day at which time you can make the move. Since Yahoo allows you to make future day roster changes, you can then pickup another player off the WW once the injured player is moved to the IR slot (which also becomes effective the next day). You cannot pick a player up off waivers and have him in your lineup on the same day.
One note to add concerning IR players that are activiated. Yahoo does not force you to move an IR player back to your active roster when he is activated, but you cannot make any WW pickups until those players are moved from the slot. You will get an error message when you try to do this something to the effect of This move can not be made because there is a player on IR that is not eligible. I believe trades can be still accomplished with a non-injured player on the IR, but this keeps managers from making other pickups while hiding a guy on the IR.
Concerning new position eligibilites and new player additions, Yahoo tends to be a little slow in adding them. Once a player reaches a new position eligibilty or a player not in the database plays his first game, it can be anywhere from a few days to a couple weeks before the change is made. That is probably the only complaint I have had with Yahoo the pst several seasons.
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| 56 | Guru
ID: 330592710
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 13:54
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Thanks, skinneej, that's useful info.
Here is my current thinking on continuance in subsequent years, qualifying leagues, new entrants, etc.
1. The top six finishers (plus ties, if any) will automatically be invited to participate in the following year (unless there are behavioral issues that require banishment - which I certainly don't expect from this group!)
2. The bottom 3 finishers will be replaced with new managers in the following year.
3. Those finishing 7-9 will be in limbo. Their re-entry will depend on the number of qualified new managers, the size of the league in the subsequent year, the closeness of the competition, etc.
4. I will be exempt from item 3. If I finish in the bottom three, I still get to return. Hosting this site has to have some privileges!
5. New managers for the following year will be selected by me. One criteria that I will weigh heavily is the results of "qualifying" leagues this year - with scoring rules that are very similar to the rules of this league. Winners of qualifying leagues will not automatically be invited, however. Other factors will be considered, including GuruPatron status, comportment at the forum, geographical representation, participation in other RotoGuru Invitational leagues (i.e, other sports), etc.
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| 57 | Doug
Sustainer
ID: 31649212
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 13:57
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Draft pick trading trading - Yes
Drafting players who are not initially listed - Yes
7-day max to remove a reactivated player from IR - Yes
IR pickups - Yes... I like the way Yahoo! handles it... you must have an active spot on your roster to make the pickup, but you can then immediately move to IR and make another pickup to backfill that reopened active roster slot. I will go along with a 2-day "hold" period if that's what is agreed, but would rather not deal with it unnecessarily. I see effectively managing your IR slot as part of the game (and that includes making wise decisions on how/when to fill it), but for this reason I also heavily prefer having 1 IR slot to having 2.
Personally I like deep benches... reward managers for making good deep pickups in their roster... also encourages a more trading vs. waiver wire pickups since teams have more depth to trade from and less "equivalent options" available on waivers, etc. I think 3 is an optimal number, but if not then I would prefer 4 over 2. As noted above, I prefer 1 IR slot to 2... so, my personal bench preferences (in order) are:
3 bench/1 IR
4 bench/1 IR
2 bench/1 IR
3 bench/2 IR
2 bench/2 IR
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| 58 | Guru
ID: 330592710
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 14:15
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Any other feedback on bench & IR slots? My thinking in setting it as low as 2 was to keep as many "unused" players as possible in the free agent pool, rather than shielded on someone's bench.
I'd like to hear from others on this. I am certainly amenable to Doug's suggestion.
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| 59 | rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 27652109
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 14:22
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Prefer 3/2 but will go with the flow. I agree with Doug's logic.
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| 60 | Dave R
Dude
ID: 1367294
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 16:55
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3/1 gets my vote
If you are unfortunate enough to have 2 injured players, one just occupies a spot on the bench.
Certainly happened enough to me in baseball this year
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| 61 | Dave R
Dude
ID: 1367294
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 21:24
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Ive registered and emailed edgar
I guess it will be awhile before he does anything
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| 62 | lionprideguy
Sustainer
ID: 906204
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 03:59
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I'd go for the 3/1 option as well. Could help to promote more trading, but I'll also defer on this subject to those with more experience for what works. A manager can always have the option of just holding a second injured player on his bench if they choose, just another part of strategy and roster management.
I think at least a few days of a window for IR reactivation is probably best as well. I can understand the delay taking some of the strategy out of the game, but it would help with anybody's travel schedules if they're away for a few days and unable to act right away.
Everything else looks well thought-out and reasonable - looking forward to the season!
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| 63 | Edgar
Leader
ID: 458944
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 07:34
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Just entered the league and send an email to Hoops Klyce.
On the bench/IR thing I favor the 3/2. I am expecting a lot of injuries ;-)
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| 64 | Swish City
Leader
ID: 34634306
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 07:49
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I would go for 3/1 also. Having another IR guy on the bench seems fine to me.
7 days to remove an activated IR player also seems sensible for the potential roster inaccessibility reasons discussed previously.
Edgar - can you email me regarding the account you've used to register.
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| 65 | hoopsklyce
Leader
ID: 5392426
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 08:25
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I am in the league now
hoopsklyce
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| 66 | Guru
ID: 330592710
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 12:13
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It looks like we are narrowing down the bench/IR choices to 2 favorites. Everyone so far has been supporting either 3/1 or 3/2. I'll let the majority rule. Please wiegh in if you haven't already.
Here's what I have for votes:
3/1 - Dave R, Doug, lionprideguy
3/2 - rockafellerskank
Swish City and Edgar voted for 3/1 and 3/2 respectively, so I guess their team vote is a tie.
Need to hear from coldwater, hoopsklyce, ukula, blackjack, Philflyboy, and Rand. I'll break a tie if needed.
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| 67 | philflyboy
Leader
ID: 407561421
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 12:21
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3/1 works for me.
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| 68 | coldwater coyotes
SuperDude
ID: 33742418
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 12:45
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3/1
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| 69 | Rand
Donor
ID: 364152215
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 12:58
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I know that in the middle of the season I'll
regret this, but I'm thinking 3/1 is the way to go.
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| 70 | Dave R
Dude
ID: 1367294
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 13:49
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That should be enough 3/1's to make the call
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| 71 | Guru
ID: 330592710
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 13:55
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OK - 3/1 it is.
This means we'll have 15 rounds of the draft.
What about start date? I tentatively said 10/11, although this is not a hard & fast date. Waiting longer has the advantage of gathering more preseason info and avoiding early injuries (like McDyess last year), but puts more pressure on the speed of the process, and also makes it less valuable for observers who may be looking for ideas for their own drafts.
I don't think there is any need to start earlier, however.
I know that some of you have potential date conflicts. Let's get those all on the table here before making a final decision.
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| 72 | philflyboy
Leader
ID: 407561421
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 14:13
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as I posted earlier I am scheduled to be out of town from the 11th-13th. Jumpball is going to help me with this team and he will be around to do the draft that weekend so we are covered. We can start anytime.
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| 73 | rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 27652109
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 14:21
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I have no conflicts, prefer as early as is agreeable to everone else.
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| 74 | Doug
Sustainer
ID: 31649212
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 14:49
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I would rather get started sooner with a greater "time per pick" allottment than waiting and rushing. Injuries happen. The unfortunate manager will just have to deal. It's also something to be mindful of during drafting (certain players have more injury tendencies, but you never know...) Anyway, I think I just cursed myself. =-)
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| 75 | hoopsklyce
Leader
ID: 59923214
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 16:24
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I'm OK with 12 active 3 bench 2 IR
I like having a 'weak' free agent pool
I would be OK with 12 active 5 bench 2 IR
but whatever the majority says if fine
would like to get draft going as well
david
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| 76 | Dave R
Dude
ID: 1367294
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 16:28
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I will be in Hilton Head returning 10/11 but will have limited access. Although I would prefer to wait til I return, I'll just deal with it.
I probably wont be available Friday or until 6 EST on saturday but to not hold up the 1st round I could just email someone my top 3 choices and they could draft for me
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| 77 | ukula
Donor
ID: 33923212
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 16:52
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I say 3/2. Would the draft be 15 rounds? or 17?
I can draft anytime. I have no plans. I have no life.
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| 78 | Doug
Sustainer
ID: 31649212
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 17:05
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You do not draft your IR slot(s), so 15 rounds. If you draft someone who is IR eligible, you can place them on IR after the draft completes (and the website is updated with our rosters, etc.) and then submit a waiver claim to fill the active bench spot.
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| 79 | coldwater coyotes
SuperDude
ID: 57111916
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 19:03
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Tim Duncan is available on Oct 11th. all he needs now is a flashy suit to wear for the draft room.
And I need a shirt for him to hold up.
I would consider trades for the No 1 pick.
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| 80 | Dave R
Dude
ID: 541437
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 21:32
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I guess the cats out of the bag on the first pick
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| 81 | lionprideguy
Sustainer
ID: 906204
Fri, Oct 03, 2003, 04:58
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coldwater already begins to tempt us! Sitting at #11, I thought I'd look back at recent #11 picks in the NBA Draft, which were Jared Jeffries, Kendrick Brown, Jerome Moiso, and Trajon Langdon. Ouch, not a good omen.
I'm okay to start drafting anytime around 10/11, although I will be semi-limited both the 11th and 12 with some work commitments for parts of both days. After that I'll be around consistantly to draft anytime.
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| 82 | rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 461124288
Fri, Oct 03, 2003, 10:02
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If we are going to allow trades, I'd consider moving down a few spots if anyone wants to move up to "lock" their #2 guy. I'd look for some compensation in a later round(s) in return.
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| 83 | leggestand
Sustainer
ID: 4881297
Fri, Oct 03, 2003, 10:05
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Guru,
I have a question for you. I have always been under the assumption that you should have an even number of rounds in a snake draft. With 15 rounds, the 12th picking coach in the first and last round of the draft will be the same. Shouldn't the draft be 14 or 16 rounds to ensure at least a little equality? I know pickings are slim when yiou get to these rounds, but I think it gives a slight disadvantage to the 8th through 12 pickers if you have an odd number of rounds.
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| 84 | leggestand
Sustainer
ID: 4881297
Fri, Oct 03, 2003, 10:06
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And by the way, I know I am not in the league, but I am in the "qualifying league." Since we are trying to run it the same, I figured I could take questions to you.
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| 85 | Guru
ID: 330592710
Fri, Oct 03, 2003, 11:55
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By the time we reach the 15th round, the sequence of picks isn't particularly meaningful. Also, since waiver priority goes in reverse draft order, ending with an odd round actually dovetails naturally with waiver priorities.
I've been in snake drafts with both even and odd numbers of rounds. Not a real concern.
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| 86 | leggestand
Sustainer
ID: 4881297
Fri, Oct 03, 2003, 12:00
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Good point with the waiver priority.
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| 87 | Doug
Sustainer
ID: 31649212
Fri, Oct 03, 2003, 15:05
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I'm always up for trading... if anyone is interested in the #7 spot let me know...
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| 88 | hoopsklyce
Leader
ID: 5392426
Fri, Oct 03, 2003, 20:43
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any thoughts on time limits for draft picks
for example after 48 hours the draft by passes to the next manager. The deliquent manager would get his pick whenever he gets back in touch.
david
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| 89 | rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 461124288
Fri, Oct 03, 2003, 20:45
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I think time limit 24-48 hours is good. I'd also recommend that the onwer that picks, e-mails the next owner he is up to give an "alert" for those not checking as frequently.
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| 90 | Guru
ID: 330592710
Fri, Oct 03, 2003, 21:20
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24 hours is probably a good place to start. Hopefully, no one will come close to this limit, however, and we should try to average no slower than a round per day.
Time zone differences may cause occasional delays, I realize. We have four teams in the Pacific time zone, one in the central, 6 in the east, and one in western Europe.
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| 91 | lionprideguy in NCal
Sustainer
ID: 289471616
Sat, Oct 04, 2003, 02:50
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Greetings from behind enemy lines ...
Just registered my team, only one more to go and we're set.
24 hours seems like the best draft limit since we have to get 15 rounds in before October 28. At that pace, we would be in trouble if we fall behind the rate of a round a day. Unfortunately it looks like we're moving backwards against time zones for some of the draft order, so depending on people's sleep habits we could be delayed by that working against us. Otherwise, everybody is on top of things so that's about the only challange I'd anticipate.
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| 92 | blackjackis21
Leader
ID: 34837521
Sat, Oct 04, 2003, 04:32
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I don't anticipate any problems the rest of the month - should be available and am looking forward to it!
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| 93 | rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 461124288
Sat, Oct 04, 2003, 09:48
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I see that all 12 owners are logged into Yahoo! I also see that Duncan is on coldwater's roster. Does this mean that although the official draft hasn't started yet, we are makng picks if we elect too? Or perhaps the Duncan pick was just Guru experimenting w/ commish tools?
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| 94 | philflyboy
Leader
ID: 407561421
Sat, Oct 04, 2003, 10:20
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everything is in place, it would seem that we could start anytime. Takes away some of the rush to get things done by the start of the season.
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| 95 | Rand
Donor
ID: 364152215
Sat, Oct 04, 2003, 10:36
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OK, I'm in and good to draft anytime.
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| 96 | Guru
ID: 330592710
Sat, Oct 04, 2003, 11:17
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Just experimenting, so see whether rosters would reflect picks entered during the draft. While the Yahoo draft page does show picks as they are entered, the "available players" page does not reflect this.
I'm doing some programming to set up a draft recap page which will show all of the picks made, sorted both by pick number, but also arranged by roster. While league members could follow this by looking at the Yahoo draft page, outsiders could not. And, of course, my formatting will be nicer!
I also have to do some work on pre-ranking players - for my own purposes. I understand the urge to get going, but frankly, I am not yet ready. If people want to start picking, that's fine with me, but when it gets to me, I'm probably not going to be ready for a few more days - although I might be able to figger out a first round pick when the time comes.
I want to set up a separate thread for draft picks. There will also be a separate thread for draft pick rationale & discussion. Let me get those set up first.
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| 97 | coldwater coyotes
SuperDude
ID: 33742418
Sat, Oct 04, 2003, 11:59
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Re Duncan as my possible first pick.
After looking through the threads in the Political Forum all I can say is don't believe everything you read.
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| 98 | hoopsklyce
Leader
ID: 5392426
Sat, Oct 04, 2003, 12:18
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I might suggest that an owner who anticipates his pick coming up right after 'bedtime' email to the next guy top two picks (if they are comfortable doing that) to avoid snags. Otherwise I think we should be OK with draft pace. I like 24 hours flat as limit.
David
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| 99 | lionprideguy in NCal
Sustainer
ID: 289471616
Sat, Oct 04, 2003, 13:34
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Good to see everybody anxious to start! I'm afraid I'm similar to Guru in that I'm not quite ready yet, either, still need to take some time to work on some player rankings. Is Dave R in Hilton Head still as well?
Just as a heads up, I'm afraid I will be out of touch from now until late Sunday night as I hit the road again. It's the only time all month I'll be away, though. I don't want to hold anything up and will catch up as soon as I can when I get back tomorrow night.
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| 100 | Guru
ID: 330592710
Sat, Oct 04, 2003, 15:48
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No one should feel pressured into making an early pick. If you're ready and want to, go ahead. If you want to take some extra time, for whatever reason, you have that opportunity.
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| 101 | Swish City
Leader
ID: 56958413
Sat, Oct 04, 2003, 16:27
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I must say as well that myself and Edgar are not yet ready to draft. Our plan all along was to use this week to establish our draft order. A 1st round pick could be possible, but it won't be until later in the week at the earliest that we are prepared to go deeper into the draft.
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