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Game sites:     TSN Hoops     Progressive Sports Challenge     Sandbox     Yahoo! Basketball 0 Subject: RHIC AA1 Posted by: wiggs - [6825712] Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 11:40 Welcome everyone to the RIHC AA League #1 Our draft will begin as soon as we conclude the picking our draft positions. Opening night is October 30th so we shouldn't waste too much time getting the draft going. Here are the roster positions and league settings (direct from the RIHC rules). Roster Positions (12/3/2): PG, SG, G, G, PF, SF, F, F, C, C, Util, Util, BN, BN, BN, DL, DL Stat Categories (8): FG%, FT%, 3PTM, PTS, REB, AST, ST, BLK Max games per position: 84 Roster moves: Daily I figured it would be good to recap the rules regarding the injury slots: Three bench slots are available to hold any player. Two additional bench slots will be enabled, but are restricted as “injury slots”, hereafter abbreviated as “IS”. An NBA player shall be eligible to fill an IS if he is listed in any “informed” source as being injured more seriously than “day-to-day”. Examples of acceptable information sources include (but are not limited to): RotoWire RotoWorld RotoTimes ESPN NBA.com Newspaper stories (citing facts, not speculation). Once a player appears in an NBA game, he is no longer eligible to fill an IS, even if a published source fails to remove his listing. When a player is no longer IS eligible, the team shall have a limited amount of time to remove that player from the IS, as defined below. If a manager wishes to move a player into an IS but cannot find a confirming source, he may request that the Commissioner approve the designation. The Commissioner shall use his best judgment in making such a determination. If any manager believes that another team has improperly moved a player into an IS, he may file a protest with the Commissioner. If any manager disagrees with a Commissioner ruling, he may request a league vote. Six votes shall be required to overturn any Commissioner ruling related to an IS. Each Wednesday, the Commissioner shall review all rosters to assure that any filled injury slots are appropriate. In the event that an IS is improperly filled, the Commissioner will notify the manager of the violation via the email link at the Yahoo site. The notified manager will have 48 hours to correct the roster or to provide a satisfactory explanation. If a breach remains uncorrected 48 hours after notice, the Commissioner shall have the authority to drop a bench player in order to bring the roster into conformance. The player dropped will be based upon the Commissioner’s judgment as to the best interests of the impacted team. The Commissioner shall have the latitude to extend the time for curing a breach if he knows that the manager is unreachable and/or unavailable to make the adjustment. No player which is in an IS slot may be placed in a starting slot on any day unless the bench has been cleared of that injury slot, or unless another player is eligible to replace that player in the vacated IS. In the event of a violation, the Commissioner may elect to void any stats generated by improperly activated player. As before, no player may be picked up as a free agent and immediately placed in an IS. Free agent additions are only IS eligible 10 days after pickup, unless the player has appeared in an NBA game after the pickup and the IS eligibility occurred thereafter. Anyway, following is the order in which we will pick our draft positions: 1) Threesleen 2) Frick 3) Wolfer 4) Ref 5) youngromans 6) Tosh 7) wiggs 8) Philsphan 9) KnicksFan 10) dror 11) PD 12) Goldnets Thanks to Farn as I copied and pasted all his rules on our page. You may begin your selection of spots immediately 1 Goldcoach       ID: 893426       Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 11:56 Since I'm 12th I'll happily take whatever position is left. 2 Frick       Donor       ID: 3410101718       Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 14:04 Wiggs, I'm assuming you sent the Kafenatid info to my gmail account. If so I'll be able to access tonight and I'll sign up then. Hmm, I need to figure out where I want to pick now! 3 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 16:37 Yeah Frick, for once, you only got the 2nd pick instead of the first! ;) 4 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 09:55 Guys, can we do this please? 5 Goldcoach       ID: 893426       Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 10:56 Does the draft have to be enabled before we can set up a queue? 6 Philsphan       ID: 2579209       Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 11:00 I am ready. 7 wolfer       ID: 24148211       Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 11:30 Are we waiting for Threesleen to make it official? 8 dror       ID: 5283329       Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 11:37 looks like it wolfer... I have some bad news, I'm gonna be out and with no connection at all from this sunday (the 14th) untill thursday. I have no problem setting a long que with specific instruction on how to deal with it, but I was really hoping to at least get a couple of rounds before I leave so I can see in what direction my team is going before creating the que... please let's make an effort here to start soon. thanks 9 wiggs       ID: 6825712       Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 11:52 After talking to a couple managers we decided maybe the fairest thing to do is to re-randomize the draft and whatever spot you get is where you will pick. We will just bypass the pick your spot part of the draft. I need thoughts about this. I will leave it open til around 5 tonight and then I will go with majority. We really need to start this now. Email me or post here. Thanks. BTW, I have emailed 3 spleen 3 times and he has registered for the draft, so i dont know whats up. 10 deejay       Donor       ID: 501182710       Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 11:58 wiggs, 3spleens is from asia if i am correct, that might have something to do with that... 11 wiggs       ID: 6825712       Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 12:06 thank you for the info. That is good to know. I just emailed him again. Hopefully I hear from him soon. 12 wiggs       ID: 6825712       Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 12:07 i just got an email from him. We will get this thing moving. 13 threespleens       Leader       ID: 00795541       Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 12:08 can't make a pick on kafenatid. it keeps saying the draft hasn't started. anyways, 1.01 kevin garnett 14 threespleens       Leader       ID: 00795541       Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 12:12 and now that i've actually read everything i see the reason. i'll take pick 1 15 wiggs       ID: 6825712       Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 12:18 1.threespleen 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. 16 wiggs       ID: 6825712       Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 12:48 i have emailed frick. If the anyone will be away and is willing to leave a list of picks for me to just put u in when it is your turn i would appreciate it. I know some people like to say best available or something. Thanks 17 Frick       Donor       ID: 3410101718       Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 13:37 Sorry, I've been away from a connection since late last night. I'll pick 5th. 1.threespleen 2. 3. 4. 5. Frick 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. 18 wolfer       ID: 24148211       Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 13:54 Alright then I will take pick #2 1.threespleen 2.wolfer 3. 4. 5. Frick 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. 19 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 15:57 3 1.threespleen 2.wolfer 3. Ref 4. 5. Frick 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. 20 youngroman       ID: 3751268       Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 16:06 I take pick #4 1.threespleen 2.wolfer 3. Ref 4. youngroman 5. Frick 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. 21 Tosh       Leader       ID: 057721710       Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 16:17 I like #6 1.threespleen 2.wolfer 3. Ref 4. youngroman 5. Frick 6. Tosh 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12 You're up Commish! 22 Philsphan       ID: 2579209       Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 18:26 I'm going to be away from a computer for a while. I will take the highest available slot after Wiggs picks. 23 dror       ID: 5283329       Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 18:53 I will also take the highest available slot when it's my turn 24 wiggs       ID: 2542623       Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 19:34 I like #6 1.threespleen 2.wolfer 3. Ref 4. youngroman 5. Frick 6. Tosh 7. Wiggs 8. philsphan 9. 10. 11. 12 KF is up 25 wiggs       ID: 2542623       Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 21:45 we are almost there. KF picks and puts dror into the next best available spot then pd picks and puts goldnets into the last spot. I have a queue for threespleen so wolfer you will be next, you can email me your pick if you want. Garnett is off the board 26 wiggs       ID: 2542623       Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 23:34 well we made some progress today. Hopefully KF will get his pick in tonight or tomorrow morning. If he does feel free to fill in dror's pick. I am going to bed. I will set up the kafenatid site tomorrow morning around 8 am when i get to work, or as soon as the picks are in. I think we are way behind. We might need to run a clock over the weekend. I wouldnt do a short clock, but we need to continue to make progress. Let me know your thoughts. 27 wiggs       ID: 6825712       Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 08:20 we are now 18 days away from opening night. We really need to get this thing going. I ask that everyone checks in regularly and leaves a queue whenever you are not going to be around. I am thinking if KF hasnt picked by noon est today I will give him spot 9 and we will continue the selection process. I would like to get a round in before tonight. 28 Goldcoach       ID: 893426       Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 08:27 A clock works for me provided we can slow it down overnight. 29 wiggs       ID: 6825712       Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 08:29 clock will be shut down from like midnight til 8 am est. You will still be able to make picks, they will just be untimed. 30 wolfer       ID: 24148211       Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 08:58 Wiggs, Email with pick sent. 31 KnicksFan       Sustainer       ID: 030815418       Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 09:11 Sorry guys, I'll pick in a minute. 32 wiggs       ID: 6825712       Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 09:18 KF, Dont be sorry, you really werent on the clock that long. I am just getting nervous if we are going to finish on time. I think once we get the picks started we will be fine. 33 KnicksFan       Sustainer       ID: 030815418       Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 09:20 Okay, what the hell I'll take pick 12. 1.threespleen 2.wolfer 3. Ref 4. youngroman 5. Frick 6. Tosh 7. Wiggs 8. philsphan 9. 10. 11. 12. KnicksFan 34 wiggs       ID: 6825712       Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 09:23 1.threespleen 2.wolfer 3. Ref 4. youngroman 5. Frick 6. Tosh 7. Wiggs 8. philsphan 9. dror 10. 11. 12. KnicksFan PD is up 35 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 14:42 Can we have a shorter per pick clock? Like no more than 4 hrs? The longer people have, the longer they will take to pick. Cutting the clock to a reasonable time is shown to not only speed up the draft but still not having to skip people. Also, people who will time out after 3 hours, rarely are able to make their pick before they would have timed out with a somewhat longer per pick clock. If we're worried about timing out, that would be my vote--esp. with Kaf's tremendous queue programming. 36 Perm Dude       ID: 1951116       Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 14:46 #10. 37 Goldcoach       ID: 893426       Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 14:52 That gives me 11. Looks like were ready to go 1.threespleen 2.wolfer 3. Ref 4. youngroman 5. Frick 6. Tosh 7. Wiggs 8. philsphan 9. dror 10. Perm Dude 11. Goldcoach 12. KnicksFan 38 wiggs       ID: 2542623       Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 15:07 we are underway. lets keep this thing rolling. Leave queues when you will be away for an extended period of time. I am going to set a 6 hour clock as soon as everyone gets their 1st pick in. That way i will know everyone knows we started. I will plan on using a queue if it is there unless i hear differently from you either from email or posted on the board 39 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 18:07 I had no idea we were starting today. Let me take a look. 42 Frick       ID: 21041187       Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 20:38 Sorry for the delay, I didn't realize that we were planning on starting this evening. I'll pick in a few minutes. 43 wiggs       ID: 2542623       Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 21:45 guys i have been posting a ton saying we were going to be starting immediately. We are way, way behind schedule right now. 44 Tosh       Leader       ID: 057721710       Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 22:09 Just got home. The internet has been down at work. Will pick shortly. 45 wiggs       ID: 2542623       Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 23:15 good progress today boys. Lets keep up the good work. I think about half the people have left queues which is nice. 46 Perm Dude       ID: 1951116       Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 23:21 I'm up for a bit if it happens to come around to me again. 47 dror       ID: 5283329       Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 23:39 wiggs how many rounds do you think is reasonable to plan untill thursday? I'm making a round by round que and I need to know how deep to make it. 48 wiggs       ID: 2542623       Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 23:58 i would say 4 or 5, usually a round a day 49 wiggs       ID: 2542623       Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 23:58 you dont leave til sunday right? 50 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Sat, Oct 13, 2007, 00:04 If it's a round per day we will never make the start of the season. I think it will be a lot faster than that. We only have 12 teams, so we should be fine as long as people don't take huge chunks of their time consistently. 51 wiggs       ID: 2542623       Sat, Oct 13, 2007, 00:57 ref, i hope you are right. I just think that weekends usually slow down. I would like to be into round 4 by monday. 52 Frick       ID: 21041187       Sat, Oct 13, 2007, 01:06 I set PermDude and YoungRoman as DPs. Wiggs should already have access as commish. I'll normally post here if you should use it immediately or not. I added a couple of players if it would make it back to me before tomorrow morning. I'll check in and add more players to it tomorrow morning and leave more details then. I know that you said we would be starting immediately Wiggs, I just didn't realize that it would make it to me between me leaving work and getting home from running errands. I had to pick my car up from the shop and get food for my daughters' birthday party tomorrow. It is promising to see the first round get knocked out so quickly for the most part though. 53 wiggs       ID: 2542623       Sat, Oct 13, 2007, 01:15 Frick, Its cool, you didnt hold us up much. Hope all is well with your car. Enjoy your daughters bday. 54 Perm Dude       ID: 1951116       Sat, Oct 13, 2007, 01:19 gonna hit the sack soon. Wiggs, I made my queue available, with 4 picks in there right now. I'll check back in in a few hours. 55 wiggs       ID: 2542623       Sat, Oct 13, 2007, 11:04 i am taking my son to his basketball game, should be home in about 3 hours. I left a queue hopefully it will make it to my next pick. If not i will pick when i get home. 56 wiggs       ID: 2542623       Sat, Oct 13, 2007, 13:48 Not sure what is up with KF, not like him not to check in for this long. I have emailed him. According to the on the clock prediction we will not finish this til mid november if we dont pick up the pace ALOT. Please leave queues. 57 wiggs       ID: 2542623       Sat, Oct 13, 2007, 15:02 another email sent to KF, he has now been on the clock for about 16 hours. The clock will start as soon as he makes his pick. It will be 6 hours. Per pick. If anyone has a huge problem with this speak up and we will talk it out. 58 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Sat, Oct 13, 2007, 15:33 Re: clock I don't mind if someone has an "Oh S--t" moment and can't get to their computer for awhile and causes a delay. But typically the draft is delayed by the same few people. Weekends are always slower, no matter what you do. Thing is, when you set a time limit, be prepared for people to use it. The thought is, "why should I leave a queue when I'll be back by then." Or "there is no way it wil make it back to me." Also some don't research until they are up. My biggest pet peeve is waiting all day for someone to pick and then I have to leave and they pick while I'm gone. It's particularly tough when you have two different players by pos./cat fillers who you want depending on who goes before you, but we all deal with that. So after dealing with this issue in our three Gurupie 20/24 leagues, I tracked the time on every pick made and all variables. Then added a cumulative clock so every pick counts against a total time as well as a per pick clock. Then we charted that as well. After researching, we've been able to cut the per pick clock down to three hours and the cumulative clock to about an hour or so per pick--depending on the number of rounds needed. The result: We are able to start at the last possible moment so we have the latest and most up to date info on the players being drafted. Furthermore, it is rare for anyone to time out of the draft and the instances of timing out of their individual picks have dropped way down (we don't charge any clock time if you have a queue). We're able to have 20 managers for hoops draft 6 rounds and we've been averaging more than a round per day. Our dark times are midnight to 8 am ET. Now what we do might not work for other leagues and I'm certainly not suggesting that we do it like that here. The point I was making is that the shorter the clock (to a point) the more queues are left, the less waiting on others and the faster the draft. Six hours may be fine as long as we rarely use it. But if we start using that, I think we should drop it to 4 hrs. asap. 59 wiggs       ID: 2542623       Sat, Oct 13, 2007, 15:45 Ref, I totally agree with you on that. I would rather not use 6 hours either, but I am using that so we dont sit through an entire weekend. I would love to use some sort of cumulative clock but that sounds like a lot of work. From what I know of KF this is not like him at all. I have a feeling he didnt know we started and has been away from his computer for whatever reason. Seems like we have a nice group here, I have queues for the next 4 picks after KF then 1 without and then the next three have queues. So we can easily get through 8 picks in 10 minutes if the queues dont empty. 60 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Sat, Oct 13, 2007, 16:07 Wiggs, agreed. I've played with half the league before and this seems like a great bunch. Several vets who know what they're doing and the draft process. I didn't know we were starting either. I either missed the "immediate" part or didn't get the context. I figured we were going to start after the weekend was over. I think we will get finished in plenty of time. RIHC hasn't yet begun. C Clock is a lot of work. I have created a speradsheet that does all the math. Still takes some time to enter and I wouldn't use it here since the draft has already begun. I should have a talk with KKB at some point and see if he could code that w/o taking too much time or reshources. 61 Goldcoach       ID: 439131016       Sat, Oct 13, 2007, 16:24 Wiggs, I'm in now, will check in every 30 min or so to see whats happening, but go ahead and use my queue to speed things up as I've set it up regardless of kf's picks. 62 KnicksFan       ID: 43927615       Sat, Oct 13, 2007, 18:04 Sorry I didn't realize we were underway and I've been away from the computer since yesterday. You guys know I am usually quick to pick, so this wasn't typical. 63 wiggs       ID: 2542623       Sat, Oct 13, 2007, 18:09 KF, i know buddy. I figured the 1st round would be the slowest. dror left a queue, but it is empty, we are stopped until he checks in, but we did get 4 picks in a couple minutes. I am going to be leaving for a little bit. I have a queue set up Tosh and youngromans have one set up, but it is unavailable. The clock has begun 64 Philsphan       Donor       ID: 301442416       Sat, Oct 13, 2007, 19:32 I just got back in. I will pick shortly. 65 Philsphan       Donor       ID: 301442416       Sat, Oct 13, 2007, 19:47 I just picked for Wiggs. Tosh is up. 66 Frick       Donor       ID: 3410101718       Sat, Oct 13, 2007, 20:20 I had 3 players in my queue with 4 picks to go. Of course none of them made it to me. Give me a minute and I'll pick. 67 wolfer       ID: 277272321       Sat, Oct 13, 2007, 23:33 I left a queue and hve Ref and threespleen as my pickers. 68 dror       ID: 5283329       Sat, Oct 13, 2007, 23:47 I'm out and will be back thursday morning, I e-mailed wiggs my que for the next few rounds. 69 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Sun, Oct 14x, 2007, 11:18 LOL!!! This draft is going to fast! I am not even prepared to draft hoops yet with all the football and hoops league prep. This draft will get done quickly it seems. 70 Goldcoach       ID: 439131016       Sun, Oct 14x, 2007, 16:06 Wiggs I'm here, two picks away, so if things move along I'll make my next two picks. 71 KnicksFan       ID: 229221414       Sun, Oct 14x, 2007, 16:23 I'm here also, I'll check in every 30 minutes or so to see if it's moving. 72 Frick       Donor       ID: 3410101718       Sun, Oct 14x, 2007, 21:21 I just put two players into my queue. After Tosh picks, YR please go ahead and make my pick. If it makes it back around to me, I want to see what happens and I'll make my pick by 8AM tomorrow morning. Sorry for not leaving a longer queue, but at this point in the draft I want to reassess after the turn. 73 Tosh       Leader       ID: 057721710       Sun, Oct 14x, 2007, 21:33 I just picked. Sorry for the delay. 74 wolfer       ID: 247581719       Sun, Oct 14x, 2007, 22:42 Another queue left for the overnight. 75 wiggs       Sustainer       ID: 04991311       Mon, Oct 15, 2007, 01:29 we made great progress this weekend. I thank everyone for paying attention and leaving queues. 76 Frick       Donor       ID: 3410101718       Mon, Oct 15, 2007, 10:41 I've left a queue for my round 5 pick. YR, go ahead and use it when you make your pick. 77 Goldcoach       ID: 893426       Mon, Oct 15, 2007, 11:11 I'll be out of touch till about 1:30> It looks like I'll have time then to make my picks if the round(s) get that far. 78 Philsphan       Donor       ID: 301442416       Mon, Oct 15, 2007, 22:06 dror has about 45 minutes left to pick, and I am ready with my next choice. Is his queue emptied out? Do we need to wait until Thursday when he returns to resume the draft? It's concievable the draft can pass him by again before he gets back. How does the commish rule? 79 Philsphan       Donor       ID: 301442416       Mon, Oct 15, 2007, 23:17 Well, I'm turning in for the night. Wiggs, if you wish you can pick the player in my queue for this round only. Otherwise, I'll pick in the morning. 80 wiggs       ID: 6825712       Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 11:48 My internet access has gone down severely. My laptop broke and I had to return it to HP, so I have no internet access at home. I have it at school so I can set up queues, and my parents live like 5 minutes down the road so I can check it from there occasionally. I just wanted to let everyone know in case it gets stuck on me. 81 Farn       Leader       ID: 451044109       Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 12:04 wiggs, if you get desperate you can give me your kafenatid login and i can text you. obviously i'm restricted by work too but i can help in a pinch. 82 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 13:41 You can send it to me as well. There will be some times when I'm away for short periods of time, but for the most part I should be here. If anyone wants to trade the next two picks, let me konw. It's no biggie and the guy I want is down far enough in all these "projections" that he might drop to me anyhow. Just kind of got a hunch. If he gets picked, I'm not sure if I want to trade up afterall. 83 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 13:44 Btw, this has been the smoothest draft. Sure we had to wait a couple times, but it's no biggie at all. We are so far ahead of time and everyone has been so considerate and timely that it makes this process a lot of fun. A lot of people love drafts, but I generally dread them. Not this one! 84 Frick       Donor       ID: 3410101718       Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 14:12 It helps when you have some past with the other managers. I've lost count of the # of leagues that I've been in with YR, ref, Farn, wiggs, Tosh and PermDude. While having Tosh and YR on either side of me means I can turn on a queue and feel comfortable having them use it, it also means I have Tosh and YR stealing picks right before I'm up. I can only hope that I return the favor on the flip side. ;) Good job to everyone so far on keeping this moving. 85 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 14:35 Well you stole Mo Williams from me already! Was so sure he'd make it to me. Hope Andre Miller outplays him! 86 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 14:37 Oh yeah...and deron williams too. I ha planned to "reach" a smidge on him but you got him first. Hope AI can go nuts instead now. 87 Frick       Donor       ID: 3410101718       Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 15:04 Andre Miller was also in the queue. When I left work last night I had 11 players in the queue with my 2nd pick being 14 slots away. I ended up with 3 players in my queue when I came back up. I was really hoping Jason Terry would fall back to me, but knew that it was unlikely. 88 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 15:18 Terry was in my final considerations. I can't say much more right now but will do so in final analysis. 89 youngroman       ID: 3751268       Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 15:50 after 7 rounds, 4 players on top of my queue were taken 1 pick ahead: Ref: 1.03 Kobe Bryant, 3.03 Vince Carter, 7.03 TJ Ford Frick: 4.08 Josh Howard I'm not couting all the others that were taken a few picks earlier. Good job guys! interesting is the run on PG and C. centers are usually going earlier than others, but point guards? Having no real PG after 7 rounds (Marbury, Ginobili) will definitely hurt my team. question is how much. 90 KnicksFan       Sustainer       ID: 030815418       Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 16:54 yr, Robert Pack is still available so you'll be fine. 91 Goldcoach       ID: 893426       Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 17:01 This is my first time with this type of draft. The drawn out length of time between selections makes the anticipation (and agony) exquisite. 92 Goldcoach       ID: 439131016       Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 18:49 Gotta go out. I should be back by 9pm eastern to make my pick(s) should we get that far. 93 wiggs       Sustainer       ID: 04991311       Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 19:37 Dror left me a queue, he is down to 1 man left in it. I am willing, if everyone else agrees, to stop the clock when he runs out of players until he gets back. HE did leave me a huge list of players, and he will be back thursday morning. IF his guy does not got before his next pick it will be round 9 before we hold up. We are in great shape. What do you all think? 94 Perm Dude       ID: 47918167       Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 19:45 Sounds fine to me. I'll be watching the game anyway. 95 Frick       ID: 21041187       Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 20:14 So for anyone before dror, the draft is paused until Thursday? I don't have a major problem with it, it can set a bad precedent, but overall I think we are moving at a good speed. 96 threespleens       Leader       ID: 00795541       Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 20:22 i too thank people for making the draft go quickly. i think it helps for me out here in asia to be on one of the ends. last night i almost went to sleep without making my picks. that woulda sucked. 97 Goldcoach       ID: 439131016       Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 20:47 It sounds like Dror made an honest effort to leave a sufficient queue prior to his departure. In the interest of fair competition I am willing to freeze the draft once his queue expires. I would like to keep it moving until then if possible. 98 Tosh       Leader       ID: 057721710       Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 20:54 Depending if that player is still left for Dror, I guess I'm done drafting until Thursday. I'll be at the Oregon-Washington game all day Saturday, and I'll likely not leave a queue longer than one round. Go Ducks Go! I'll be at a swim meet all day Sunday. The same queue rules as above likely will apply. 99 KnicksFan       ID: 43927615       Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 20:54 His next pick was Allan Houston, let's just make it and keep going! just kidding, lets wait. Anyway, I will be in Nashville tomorrow and won't have access to a computer until 7 PM. So waiting is perfect for me. 100 Philsphan       Donor       ID: 301442416       Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 21:31 I'm okay with holding off until he comes back. Wiggs, can you please let us know if we are waiting or not so that I am not tied to the computer waiting for something that may or may not happen? Thanks. 101 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 21:42 Yeah, whatever the league needs to do is fine. Hate to stop as I have other drafts starting, but time isn't a huge deal. As more drafts start it may take some of us longer to pick or make queues, but I'm not worried at all with this group. Hopefully he will get his last guy so we can get another round in before we have to stop. That would make the wait less. So it all hinges on PD picking dror's last guy or not. 102 wiggs       Sustainer       ID: 04991311       Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 22:14 his guy is still available as for right now. He said it is was a problem i could pick best available for him. 103 Pacers Rule       Sustainer       ID: 910311210       Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 23:54 Dang it's so peaceful in here... 104 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Wed, Oct 17, 2007, 00:24 I knew I should have traded up. Now I have no idea who to get. Dangit. Since we're going to hold up the draft anyhow, I'm not going to figure out a q. I'll either pick tonight or tomorrow when my turn comes up. 105 Perm Dude       ID: 47918167       Wed, Oct 17, 2007, 00:27 I figured there was going to be a center run. Had those three guys in my queue but actually deleted them since I already have 2 centers and there was no way they were going to make it back to me. This is the part of the draft where it gets very interesting. 106 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Wed, Oct 17, 2007, 12:06 Run Shmrun. If everyone is going big, then I'll just stay small. ;) 107 Frick       Donor       ID: 3410101718       Wed, Oct 17, 2007, 18:24 I thought I had turned my queue off. I didn't want to take Childress there. Can I get a different player? 108 Perm Dude       ID: 31911177       Wed, Oct 17, 2007, 18:26 usually this isn't a problem if you can do it before the next pick. But it is up to wiggs. 109 Tosh       Leader       ID: 057721710       Wed, Oct 17, 2007, 18:31 I am standing by. 110 Frick       Donor       ID: 3410101718       Wed, Oct 17, 2007, 19:39 I just e-mailed Wiggs, hopefully he will be around shortly. 111 Farn       Leader       ID: 451044109       Wed, Oct 17, 2007, 19:48 I texted wiggs for you guys. Hopefully is free. 112 Farn       Leader       ID: 451044109       Wed, Oct 17, 2007, 19:52 wiggs will be online shortly. just has to drive to his parents. 113 wiggs       Sustainer       ID: 04991311       Wed, Oct 17, 2007, 19:54 problem fixed. Thanks for waiting Tosh, you made it an easy fix. 114 Frick       Donor       ID: 3410101718       Wed, Oct 17, 2007, 20:02 Thank you wiggs, I forgot about your computer issues. Hopefully you get them worked out shortly. 115 wiggs       Sustainer       ID: 04991311       Wed, Oct 17, 2007, 20:05 no, it is going to be a while. I just got the box from HP today, I will be sending it out 1st thing in the AM, they said it will probably take 10 business days to get it back. I am thinking about buying or renting a cheap computer just to get me through the next 2 weeks. 116 Tosh       Leader       ID: 057721710       Wed, Oct 17, 2007, 20:07 Wiggs - What are we going to do with dror? Are we halting the draft, or are you selecting for him? 117 Frick       Donor       ID: 3410101718       Wed, Oct 17, 2007, 20:09 Does Wal-Mart still have their 30 day return policy for computers? I had a roommate in college that was a Computer Science major and he and another guy bought 2 computers from Wal-Mart to run their final project. The laptops we were issued were so out of date that their code was taking hours to compile. With the "purchased" computers from Wal-Mart it was significantly faster. After the project was done, they boxed them back up and returned them. 118 wiggs       Sustainer       ID: 04991311       Wed, Oct 17, 2007, 20:11 interesting. Thanks for the heads up. Tosh I am going to stall on my pick for a while, giving Dror a chance to make his pick in the AM. IF he hasnt picked, by say 12 noon est. I will pick for him. 119 Goldcoach       ID: 439131016       Wed, Oct 17, 2007, 20:50 In that case I'm shutting down for the night, I'll check things at 8:00 am 120 Goldcoach       ID: 893426       Thu, Oct 18, 2007, 08:20 wiggs I'm here, I'll leave my queue active but I'd like to make my next couple of picks as i should be able to check in every 30 min or so. thanks for your help. 121 Tosh       Leader       ID: 057721710       Thu, Oct 18, 2007, 11:47 I have a windstorm heading my way, expected to arrive about 6 hours from now. I lose my power about half the time when storms like this blow in. So if I go longer than an hour without a pick, you can assume I have no electricity. I'll try to keep an active queue (I'll make it active after lunch), but please don't use it unless I have taken more than one hour. 122 wiggs       ID: 6825712       Thu, Oct 18, 2007, 11:55 tosh email me if you want me to give you my phone number, you can call me if there is a problem. 123 dror       ID: 5283329       Thu, Oct 18, 2007, 13:30 I'm back guys but it's going to take me some time to figure out where I'm standing and make my next pick... I'm guessing somehing like 30 minutes... thanks for waiting for me. 124 wolfer       ID: 24148211       Thu, Oct 18, 2007, 17:12 I will be away from a computer for the next few hours so I left a queue. 125 Goldcoach       ID: 439131016       Fri, Oct 19, 2007, 09:30 Wiggs, I'm here and will check in every 15 min so I'll make my next two picks. 126 Goldcoach       ID: 439131016       Sat, Oct 20, 2007, 06:07 Wiggs, I'll be gone all day, back late evening. Use my queue to make my 14th round pick. I'll set something up for 15 when I get in tonight if it looks like I need it. Thanks 127 Frick       ID: 21041187       Sat, Oct 20, 2007, 09:40 I'll be leaving around noon today (EST) and won't be back until Sunday afternoon late. Go ahead and use my queue for R14 and 15, it shouldn't run out. 128 Perm Dude       ID: 50955206       Sat, Oct 20, 2007, 11:12 I wasn't sure about Warrick (had him in my queue for about three rounds), mostly because of Darko Milicic. But I've heard that Milicic is likely to move to center, which would free up playing time for Warrick at the forward spot. 129 Philsphan       Donor       ID: 301442416       Sat, Oct 20, 2007, 12:55 I had Warrick penciled in for this round. Nice pick. 130 threespleens       Leader       ID: 00795541       Sat, Oct 20, 2007, 14:55 thanks again all for the fast draft. looking forward to the season even more than last. 131 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Sun, Oct 21, 2007, 00:34 If the league runs as smooth as this draft, this is going to be a lot of fun. 132 wiggs       ID: 6825712       Mon, Oct 22, 2007, 09:10 all rosters are in. Only problem was Chris Webber is not in the yahoo database right now. Frick has his rights. Good luck everyone, and thank you for a great draft. you were all awesome. 133 wiggs       ID: 6825712       Tue, Oct 23, 2007, 11:54 I have added the 2 extra injury spots to the rosters. Make sure your player qualifies as injured before picking up a new player. 134 Philsphan       ID: 2579209       Wed, Oct 31, 2007, 09:17 With Foye out several weeks I have added a player. Randy Foye out several weeks 135 wiggs       ID: 6825712       Wed, Oct 31, 2007, 10:08 Added Eddie Jones for D Wade. He is out til atleast november 15th 136 Perm Dude       ID: 8934317       Wed, Oct 31, 2007, 23:55 Had a good night all around, but Warrick only played 9 mins & sucked up the place. Anyone know if he's injured, or just stuck in a numbers game? 137 Frick       Donor       ID: 3410101718       Tue, Nov 06, 2007, 09:34 I renounce my rights to Chris Webber and picked up FA Jerry Stackhouse. 138 threespleens       Leader       ID: 00795541       Sat, Nov 10, 2007, 01:30 nene injured for 6 weeks. picked up foster. 139 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Mon, Nov 12, 2007, 15:18 Looking for blocks and %s. 140 wiggs       ID: 51013815       Wed, Nov 14, 2007, 20:17 Wade is due back, dropping Abdur Rahim 141 Goldcoach       ID: 893426       Tue, Nov 20, 2007, 08:51 Picked up Kapono - Magette out for two to three weeks 142 wiggs       ID: 6825712       Tue, Nov 20, 2007, 09:31 i made a seperate thread for IS pick ups. Please use that thread to post this moves. Thanks 143 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Mon, Dec 24, 2007, 10:34 Looking for blocks and 3s if anyone wants to trade. 144 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Wed, Dec 26, 2007, 12:38 Knock Knock... Going from near the bottom to on hte doorstep of first place. You can either open the door for me or I'm going to knock it down!!! ;) 145 youngroman       ID: 3751268       Thu, Dec 27, 2007, 15:11 with T-Mac out a week I picked up Bonzi Wells. 146 Tosh       Leader       ID: 057721710       Thu, Dec 27, 2007, 16:16 If only my team could shoot a free throw, I wouldn't be so nervous about the run from Ref. At least I can only drop one more point in FTs. Unless I'm willing to trade Dwight Howard, I don't see me improving many slots in that category. So that means I better start improving in Assists and Steals. And soon. 147 youngroman       ID: 3751268       Thu, Dec 27, 2007, 16:38 I just compiled todays rankings based on averages: Rank Team GP FG% FT% 3PM PTS REB ASS STL BLK FG% FT% 3PM PTS REB ASS STL BLK Total Diff 1 youngroman's Luschen 1012 0,456 0,777 889 15158 6633 3476 992 709 7 8 8 11 12 10 7 9 72 3 2 three for a dollar 1012 0,475 0,778 972 14631 5580 3222 1035 509 10 9 10 8 8 9 9 3 66 0 2 KnicksFan 1012 0,452 0,807 750 15830 5471 3669 1164 645 4 12 3 12 4 12 12 7 66 4 4 Tasha Dawgs 1012 0,454 0,741 1076 14805 6582 2972 975 818 6 2 12 10 11 6 5 11 63 -9 5 Can't Beat the Refs 1012 0,452 0,784 777 14624 5619 3500 1115 610 4 10 4 7 9 11 11 5 61 -10 6 The Red Scorpions 1012 0,48 0,771 842 14719 5384 3119 1110 643 11 5 7 9 3 8 10 6 59 7 7 Goldnets 1012 0,467 0,746 800 13954 5481 2643 979 965 9 4 5 6 5 1 6 12 48 -10 8 Air Ball 1012 0,449 0,787 965 13176 5546 2879 931 657 2 11 9 1 7 4 3 8 45 -5 8 Frickin Idiots 1012 0,466 0,776 839 13608 5626 2881 935 467 8 7 6 4 10 5 4 1 45 6 10 Wiggs 1012 0,482 0,733 683 13324 5537 3036 841 796 12 1 1 3 6 7 1 10 41 9 11 Fightin' Amish 1012 0,45 0,774 733 13661 5177 2683 1026 596 3 6 2 5 2 2 8 4 32 -1 12 wisconsin wolfers 1012 0,441 0,745 1025 13206 4665 2704 859 468 1 3 11 2 1 3 2 2 25 8 this is not looking too bad for me. 148 dror       ID: 5283329       Thu, Dec 27, 2007, 17:15 great stuff youngroman, thanks a lot! 149 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Sun, Dec 30, 2007, 10:45 Don't rain on my parade YR!!! ;) My team was so bad for so long early--then all of a sudden it has been great. So I'm not worried about any average at this point. If I can just keep playing like I have been, I should be fine. Problem is that I have like 4 injuries--but only TJ looks to be serious. 150 dror       ID: 5283329       Mon, Jan 07, 2008, 12:16 2 big trades in 2 days, I guess this is the moment of truth for my team... took some gambles, hopefully they won't backfire. also, I just wanted to thank everyone for being so active. it's great going to the owners page and see that every single guy was around in the last 2 days, knowing that responses to trade offers will come in hours and not days. really fun league so far. 151 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Wed, Jan 09, 2008, 14:04 Yep, looks like wolf and I broke the seal. I can trade some rebounds, steals and possibly a few assists. Looking for blocks, 3s and pcts. I'll even trade some 3s and blks back for upgrades there. 152 Frick       ID: 29055156       Tue, Jan 15, 2008, 07:55 Could I hear the reasons from Ref and Wiggs for their proposed trade? Initially it looks a bit unbalanced, but not anything that would call for a veto. But considering we have the 2nd place and 2nd from last place team it looks a bit more odd. Again, I'm not accusing anyone of any thing. I would just like to hear the rationals for both sides. 153 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Tue, Jan 15, 2008, 18:07 As I've been posting, I needed blocks. Wiggs is great in blocks but needs many other cats. Tinsley has been hurt so his stats are artificially lower, but we all konw how difficult it is to obtain assists--especially double digit assists. JT also contributes in 3s, steals and even a few boards. I'm very good in steals and assists. Also, JT's percentages hae been lower than normal so far this year and I need %s and Wiggs' fg% is also pretty good. Problem is that in our back and forths, he wanted Horford. I had no intention of giving him up with his nice fgp, rebs and esp. blks, but if Jermo can somehow stay healthy, I'd still get more blocks. Staying on the court could be problematic but when he does play, he can sure help me. I'm still losing 3s and that's a problem. Wanted to try and shore up my major weaknesses in one deal, but that's not going to happen. 154 Frick       ID: 53014166       Wed, Jan 16, 2008, 07:14 Thanks Ref, I highly doubted that either of you would make a shady deal and I didn't have the time to do any analysis of the trade. I have no problems with the trade. 155 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 12:57 The Pacers just stink... Jermaine O'Neal started for the Pacers but played just nine minutes in Wednesday's win over the Warriors. He left the game in the first quarter after his troublesome left knee acted up and is day-to-day, as usual. He finished the night with four rebounds, but failed to score or block a shot. If you don't own O'Neal, expect to start seeing his name in trade offers as frustrated owners try to rid themselves of the headaches he brings. Of course Tinsley gets himself suspended last night too. 156 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Mon, Jan 21, 2008, 10:30 Jermo said today that he's ready to sit out the rest of the year to take care of his knee. My timing is brilliant. 157 Pacers Rule       Sustainer       ID: 910311210       Mon, Jan 21, 2008, 23:16 Well, in your defense, Ref, until this latest stretch, he was starting to play like the old JermO, and was actually fitting into the new uptempo style. He looked to me like he was finally healthy and nearly back in shape and his numbers were going back up, thanks to some dominant games. Now all of a sudden he's playing like a dog again and I hadn't read about him shutting it down yet, but if he's going to be constantly hurt, he might as well from a "real" perspective as opposed to fantasy. His main contribution seems to be court presence and taking charges, which again helps in the real game but not in this one. I can't seem to figure this year's Pacers out and it seems like that is how they are feeling about themselves. They'll seem to turn the corner, and then presto, a huge losing streak. Some nights they show up and play huge and get great wins, and then many nights they don't appear as energized and are very capable of blowing double digit leads. I still am opimistic they will put it together by season's end, but it's just hard to say. 158 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Mon, Jan 28, 2008, 15:50 I knew I was getting inconsistency with Jermo and that knee, but never dreamed he'd be out at least 2-3 weeks and he's saying that he'll miss the whole year if necessary. Hoping I can get him back as my team has been in shambles since that deal. JT is hurting too though so we both have lost a piece of our deal. 159 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 10:40 Man, I've gotten in on a sweatheart of a deal before, but those three for LeBron?!?! I just can't see it. 160 wiggs       ID: 6825712       Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 11:37 seems like we may need to get some votes on this trade. I have received 2 emails and the post here. Can I please get everyone to weigh in on this trade? 161 dror       ID: 5283329       Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 11:58 When I make an offer, I always try to put myself in the shoes of the other guy, and this is what I had in mind when I put myself in wolfer's place: 'My team is doing really bad right now, I'm in last place, I have no depth, and guys who shouldn't even be on a roster like Jarret Jack, Mo Pete, Luke Walton, Oberto and Krstic are in my starting lineup. On the other hand, I have a ton of games still left to play, much more then anyone else, so why not give up 1 superstar for 3 soild guys (and they are solid, especially Miller and Jefferson) so I won't have to keep playing those really bad guys?" I can't really speak for him, but this is what I had in mind when I made the offer. I think this is a clear case of a win-win trade, I need the one superstar, and he needs the depth. 162 dror       ID: 5283329       Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 12:05 And let me add this: I know people are not gonna be happy about this trade because it make my team stronger in the middle of a very tight race, but let's be real here... this is in no way any type of collision. Just because my team gains a lot from it doesn't mean that it needs to be overturned. Every single one of you had the chance to spot Wolfer's depth issue and make this kind of an offer for Lebron, so please don't punish me for being active and looking for ways to improve my team. 163 wolfer       ID: 24148211       Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 12:45 I will explain my rationale tonight. 164 dror       ID: 5283329       Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 12:56 and now some numbers... thess are the combines averages over the last month of the 3 players that will leave wolfer's lineup (Lebron, and Charlie Bell and Oberto just for the example): 41.8 PPG, 16.1 RPG, 11.5 APG, 3.4 SPG, 1.4 BPG, 2.2 3PG and these are the numbers for the players coming in (Jefferson, Miller, Anthony Carter): 49.5 PPG, 13.3 RPG, 13.1 APG, 3.2 SPG, 0.8 BPG, 4.4 3PG and by that I rest my case. this trade is clearly just as good for wolfer as it is for me, and there is absolutley no relevent basis for the claims that it needs to be overturned. 165 wiggs       ID: 6825712       Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 12:58 dror, I am not too upset about the trade, but your rationale is poor. You cant compare the 3 guys to the 1, imo. You have to add in the 2 guys you are adding to your line up as well. Then the numbers are way off. 166 dror       ID: 5283329       Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 13:03 Why? why should wolfer care about what happens in my lineup? his goal is to improve his team, and this trade does just that. what happens in my team is my buisness. this trade improves the lineups of both of us, witch is exactly what a good trade should do. 167 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 13:34 I don't think there is collusion at all. In fact, even when trades are lopsided I don't object. I just think this trade is crazy, irregardless of where anyone else in the standings. Lebron, by himself, is better than those three players combined in some cats. Thus saves you two games a night where you can plug in much better players. If I'm going to move one of (if not THE best) player in the league, I'm definitely going to get at least a couple all-star type players in return. I don't even like ANY of the three guys coming back. I'm not saying that they aren't role players who can help you in a cat or two. but LeBron can help you in every cat. save FTP. I just made a deal where I probably overpaid--seding away two studly players--just so I could get help in a couple cats. This deal just smacks of, here are some castoffs for the best player in the league. I am not a jerk about these things, in fact I almost never ever get involved in other people's dealings, just can't understand this deal at all. Nothing against either of the two parties involved. I guarantee you everything is on the up and up. I don't vote against lopsided trades. Sometimes you have to overpay to get what you feel you need. I have no issues with that. Here are the stats from the last week: Players Opp: 2/9 O-Rank Rank FG% FT% 3PTM PTS REB AST ST BLK Mike Miller (Mem - SG,SF) @NO 45 195 .514 .600 4 46 10 6 1 0 Anthony Carter (Den - PG) 166 89 .360 .700 1 26 10 17 9 1 Richard Jefferson (NJ - SF) 70 75 .468 .917 2 71 12 13 3 1 wisconsin wolfers (Players to Trade) Rankings Stats Players Opp: 2/9 O-Rank Rank FG% FT% 3PTM PTS REB AST ST BLK LeBron James (Cle - SF) 5 4 .492 .649 7 93 27 25 9 5 This is more than just lopsided IMM. If it's not over the line it's on the line and waving. I stated my opinion. I won't be upset regardless of what the league choses to do. The league and the people involved are good people and this has been one of the best times I've had in these QLs, so will continue to have fun no matter what. 168 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 13:37 It should be noted too that LeBron missed a game during that span. 169 dror       ID: 5283329       Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 13:42 you have to look at the players moving here as parts of a team, not just by themselfs. Wolfer is in a uniqe situation where yes, moving Lebron in order to get these 3 guys makes sense for him, as the numbers in post 164 clearly show. the bottom line is, his overall team is improving, and my overall team is improving. everything else doesn't matter. 170 Frick       ID: 23117516       Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 13:50 I'm not against the trade in general, At least the numbers are close, but I agree that it is really lopsided. If I had James and was really short on games I would start rotating through FAs that are only good in 1 or 2 cats. Look to see where you can make the most improvement and pick up FAs who are good in those cats. Our game limits aren't that high. I think the strategy above is a way to make the team trading James away better, but that's just my opinion. Again, I'm not voting against the trade. 171 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 13:52 dror, I disagree with your opinion in 169, but that doesn't mean that I'm right. Lebron vs. the other 3 the past week (keeping in mind that lebron missed a game) By cat: fgp: Lebron by himself is better ftp: the other three but just barely 3s: LeBron pts: Lebron with his missed game rebs: LeBron assists: about the same (missed game) steals: LeBron (missed game) blks: LeBron How exactly is wolf's team improving? He's now got 3 guys who can't measure up to one LeBron?!?! Not to mention how lopsided it is when two more players are added to the mix. Like I said, it's not like he was paying a premium for a couple cats to get better big time there. The three guys in return don't even measure up to LeBron by himself. Again, just one man's opinion. Not on a crusade by any means. 172 dror       ID: 5283329       Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 14:07 1 week is not enough to get a fair judgement. I assure you that if you go a month back to get a broader prespective, and check the averages, those 3 guys are doing much better the lebron by himself. their numbers can be found in post 164, lebron's numbers are 33.2 points, 9.5 boards, 6.8 assists, 2.6 steals, 1.3 blocks and 1.8 threes. other then in blocks, they bring much more then him in every single cat, and don't forget Lebron is a FT% killer with his amount of attemps. the fact Jefferson and Carter each had their worst game in weeks over the last couple of days doesn't change anything. over the long hole, these 3 togheter are worth much more then Lebron alone, or Lebron with 2 of the scrubs who are corrently in wolfer's lineup, and thats the entire point. 173 Goldcoach       ID: 893426       Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 16:07 Without knowing A) who Wolfer is going to drop to balance his roster, and B) who dror will pick up to fill his roster; it is impossible to fully evaluate this trade. My first reaction was that it was onesided, but looking at the teams (even before reading the subsequent posts) I realized that both sides would potentially benefit. Dror has burned a lot of Guard and Small Forward games already and stands to benefit from "dumping some guards" in exchange for one quality player. His risk lies in that all his eggs now lie in one basket and will suffer if James has any sort of injury. Wolfer gains some production (provided the dropped players are really scrubs) and has the games left to rotate his "now second team" players through with Miller, Jefferson, and Carter. Plus an injury to one doesn't implode his team. I think Wolfer slightly improves his team while Dror (barring injury) greatly improves his. I therefore (jealously) see this as a viable trade. I don't suppose too many real GM's were happy with the Gasol/Kwame trade either. 174 wolfer       ID: 14982815       Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 21:16 Re 173. That was exactly what I was thinking. I needed depth on my roster and who would give me the most in return? It's not Pierce or Johnson, who are both available now. Plus, this trade gives me the ammo to make more deals down the road. 175 wiggs       ID: 6825712       Mon, Feb 11, 2008, 13:08 I am going to bring this trade back up for a vote. I have heard from 4 people saying that they vetoed. I spoke with guru and he said 4 should have been enough. It is up for vote as of now for the next 24 hours. I need emails or posts on here. 176 Guru       ID: 330592710       Mon, Feb 11, 2008, 14:37 I spoke with guru and he said 4 should have been enough. To be clear, 4 veto votes were enough to bring the matter to a full league vote. But to overturn the trade, it typically requires a majority of those managers who are not involved in the trade. In this case, that would be 6 votes (out of 10). 177 wiggs       ID: 6825712       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 12:16 Looks like the trade will go through after all. Even with posting on the message board and emailing everyone I only got back 4 votes, including mine. The votes were 3 no 1 yes. 178 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 12:53 Totally unacceptable. Whether the trade goes through or not, to only have a third of the league vote just shows that most of the league has no interest in fulfilling their obligations. Please report who voted and who did not bother. 179 wiggs       ID: 6825712       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 13:12 Votes came from Wiggs Ref Tosh PhilliesPhan ( found this one is spam) YoungRoman 5 total votes. 180 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 13:16 So people who failed to vote thus far are: KnicksFan PD Frick goldcoach threespleens The ones who did vote, voted 75% against the trade. This is telling. 181 Perm Dude       ID: 51137128       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 13:28 No problem with the trade. 182 dror       ID: 5283329       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 14:53 both Frick (170) and Goldcoach (173) stated in this thread that they are not voting against the trade. 183 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 15:05 KF for some reason said he can't get on the site. Said he was going to vote agains tit though. I am not sure if that makes 5 or 6 votes against it. Frick also responded to my mass email asking for those to please cast their official vote. He states: I honestly don't know how to vote on this trade. I don't like the trade in general, but I can see the reasons behind it for both parties. That being said, I don't think the reasons are that great and I think it is a bad trade. Does it hurt the competitive balance of the league? I think so, with that being said I'm going to vote to block the trade. I've forwarded both of those to responses to Wiggs. So that is either 6 or 7 votes to block the trade which is enough. 184 dror       ID: 5283329       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 15:08 and I just want to remind people one last time what you are voting on here: the question is not wheather you would have made this trade yourself. the question is wheather you think this trade is so one sided, that it is obvious to you that the only way one of the sides would have made it is in a case of collision or a foul play, and that in the interest of defending the league's integrity this trade needs to be overturned. Ow, and before you pull the trigger, please spend a few minuted reading both my and Wolfer's explanations on why each of us made this deal, they can be found in this thread. 185 dror       ID: 5283329       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 15:55 without knowing what is eventually going to happen (the 24 hour deadline Wiggs set was over long ago), I feel like I got to say this: I am shocked and extremely disappointed by the way this whole trade review proccess went down. The way I see it, the only reason this trade is being voted off is because people are affreid it will make my team stronger in the midle of a tight race, and thats a completely irrelevent reason. And because there aren't any good reasons to vote this trade off (as both me and Wolfer proved without a shadow of a doubt that this trade is good for the both of us), It doesn't surprise me that the people who voted against it chose to do so behind close doors, without rationalzing their decision here and hiding behind Ref's campaign that is based on the incredebly irretional post 171 (c'mon man, do you really beleive Lebron is gonna outscore those 3 when he is averaging 31 PPG for the year and they are averaging 50? do you really beleive he is gonna shoot more 3's then them when Miller out3's him by himself? do you really beleive he is gonna have more assists and steals then them combined when Carter alone is just as good as he in both categories?). And about post 183: I don't like the trade in general, but I can see the reasons behind it for both parties that's it man! you don't need anything else. This quote is exactly what I means when I say this trade is being voted off for the wrong reasons. This is not the way fantasy should be played. The league is not suppose to police the owners, both me and Wolfer explained exactly how this trade made sence to both of us, and yet it wasn't good enough for 7 managers here, 6 of them didn't even bother to show up here and explain their decision. and I gotta tell you guys, as much fun as I had in the league so far (and I had a lot, like I posted her before this league was a real gem untill this fiasco), I don't know how I'm gonna continue after this. I have a good team that I like very much, and I think I have a good chance to comptete even without this trade, but it just doesn't feel right to me anymore. I feel like the real foul play here is that the managers who are competing with me for the championship trying to prevent me from making a fair deal that improves my team in an unfair and unreasonable way, and that just make me feel sick to my stomach. 186 Perm Dude       ID: 451161213       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 16:01 Seems to me that, unless there is collusion involved or the trade is stupidly lopsided, that it should go through. This trade might (or might not be) lopsided, but if you can see why each side might make the trade then it should go through. If the glove doesn't fit, then you must acquit! 187 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 16:11 dror: my campaign was for everyone to VOTE! I didn't hide behind anything. I posted my feelings. I only remember voting against one other trade ever in my career and I've played and ran many leagues/seasons. I feel that this trade didn't help wolf at all. A trade by its very nature should help both teams. He will basically get status quo at the expense of two more GPs/day. The fact that he is in last place and way out of 11th (22 total points) and that you're in or around first place is significant in that you're getting arguably the best player in the league w/o having to give up much at all. To get a player like LeBron, you should have to give up more than that. If he greatly improved in say assists and blocks or two other major counting stats he desparately needed and could gain ground, then that's another story. I paid a LOT more for Sheed and Granger than you did for LeBron and I arguably overpaid. I don't care that you are improving. A trade is suppose to make you better. But just because I posted and also asked the non-voters to please vote, don't put this all on me. Over half the league has supposedly voted against it and there still are a couple who have apparently not officially voted. A lopsided trade is fine. A trade that is so bad that the league could be ruined is not. Just MHO. It would be nice if others would editorialize as well. I've stated before that I don't feel that it is collusion or anything personal at all. I honestly like and enjoy everyone in this league. But a trade that is so lopsided and also significantly shifts the balance needs to be looked at. Perhaps if this trade is vetoed, you two can get together and figure something else out? 188 dror       ID: 5283329       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 16:22 I think you got me all wrong Ref, as much as I disagree with you on the issue here (Wolfer greatly improves in points, asssists, steals, 3's and FT% by this trade, and the trade you made has nothing to do with this... each trade should be looked at by himself, and only because wolfer is in last place doesn't mean he should give up on trying to get out of there), I have all the respect in the world for you for repeatedly coming here and posting your opinion. My problem is, that it is obvious to me that most of the owners that rejected this trade didn't even bother to come here and read the rationals, let alone write a rational of their own. They did it becuase they didn't like me getting Lebron, and like I said, this is not a good enough reason by any means, and might even be a collision of it's own (people teaming up in order to veto a deal because of the implications it has on their own teams, not because of the trade itself). 189 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 16:25 Last Week Stats: Stats: FG% FT% 3PTM PTS REB AST ST BLK Bron: .500 .761 9 150 39 38 14 6 mike: .480 .714 7 65 14 9 0 0 anth: .276 .750 0 22 6 22 5 0 rich: .415 .792 2 65 15 13 2 1 Now, again, the last week doesn't tell everything, but it does give you a snapshot of what they are doing right now. With two less games LeBron is actually better in fgp and ftp (hardly a stat killer). Also is equal in 3s and just two points less in points. LeBron also has more rebs and jsut 6 less assists by himself. He has double the steals and six times the blocks. ALL BY HIMSELF!!! Now add in two more players to that and see how even more unbalanced this is. Where does Wolfer gain besides games played? 190 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 16:34 dror, obviously I'd love to get LeBron, but I tell you with complete honesty that it has nothing to do with being harder to beat you. I don't play that way. I totally agree with you that each trade should be looked at by itself. I'm the one always defending trades and saying people should stay out of other's business except in extreme situations. I said before that I wasn't on a crusade so to speak but want the process to be completed. In G20 leagues, 1/3 vote against a trade, it is defeated. Here it takes 1/3 to protest it in order to come to a vote. Wiggs (nor I) understood what the process was. Once Guru told him, Wiggs moved to follow the RIHC bylaws. I wouldn't have cared if I was in the minority or the league felt the trade was fine AS LONG AS everyone voted as they are obligated to do. dror, I have no ill-will against you whatsoever and totally understand with your postings in defense of the trade. Hopefully you will believe me when I tell you that this vote against it is only about this particular deal. If you make a half dozen more trades and run away with the league because of your managing acumen, then more power to you! 191 dror       ID: 5283329       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 16:35 the average stats for the last month should give us a much better picture of what is going to happen from here. I don't know why you choose to repetedly stick with this last week total numbers that are clearly not a large enough sample to really make a fair evaluation. Roger Mason is 1st in the league in 3's over the last week, do you think he is the best play for 3's from here going forward? How about Larry Hughes being 8th in scoring? is he the 8th best scorer in the league right now? you get what I'm saying here. If you just choose to look at the right numbers you will see exactly why this trade makes sence for wolfer. I'm gonna ask you again, do you really think Lebron is gonna outscore these 3 for the rest of the season when he is averaging 31 PPG and they average 50? 192 dror       ID: 5283329       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 16:41 and about post 190, I think that when making such a critical decision like voting off a trade, people should not only be obligated to vote, but also obligated to come here, read the rationals of both sides involved and explain their decision. You obviously not the one I'm refering to here, but I'm pretty sure a lot of the 'NO' votes here come from people who looked at the players involved, decided it could hurt their own team's chances and vetoed it on that base alone. 193 Frick       ID: 23117516       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 16:41 Where does Wolfer gain besides games played? This was the reason I voted against the trade. Trading 3-1 players isn't a fair comparison until you include the missing two players. Who was Wolfer going to drop? Don't those players produce stats also? I agree that LeBron for the 3 players basically match up statistically. But when you drop the other 2 players out of his line-up it is worse overall. And while I don't think this trade was made with collusion in mind, I do think it would have affected (effected?) the competitive balance of the league. 194 Perm Dude       ID: 451161213       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 16:43 I do think it would have affected (effected?) the competitive balance of the league. But isn't that why we make trades? This objection is, at best, a wash. I make a trade to get better and, indeed, to affect the balance of the league. 195 dror       ID: 5283329       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 16:49 Frick (193), like we explained many times before, the reason this trade is good for wolfer is because he has a very big depth problem, that forces him to play scrubs like charlie Bell, Krstic, Luke Walton and Mo Peterson. he will lose nearly nothing by kickng 2 of them out of his lineup, and like the numbers show, the 3 players I'm giving him are worth not only more then Lebron alone, but more then Lebron with 2 of these scrubs. 196 dror       ID: 5283329       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 16:51 and if you want to see the exact numbers, you can just go back to post 164 197 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 16:52 I think what some people are missing is also the fact that you have to add two players into the mix who dror is actually going to play now too. Why would anyone trade to get a wash? You trade to improve your team in some cat, right? So which two players are going to be in the lineup every night now who weren't before to add to that line? Rondo? Joe Smith? Sean Williams? Kleiza? No one because he's already over in GPs and he gets to use roughly the same stats with 85 less games played or so? So we go back to what I said and Frick just emphasized again, Where does Wolfer gain besides games played? 198 dror       ID: 5283329       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 16:57 looks at post 164 Ref, when comparing what goes in and out of Wolfer's lineup, you see that over 3 spots he gains 8 PPG and 2.2 3's, while losing half a block and pretty much washing the other categories. that's a big improvement. and like I said before, whats going to happen in my lineup is not suppose to affect wolfer's decision, he should only be concerned about his own team (witch is exactly what he did). 199 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 17:08 Re: 164 With all due respect, those numbers are manufactured. I mean you're just picking two guys at random. My stats are snapshots. I've posted them twice--once last week and once this week. They are factual. They are two instances of what 4 players are doing now. Now add in two more players with LeBron WHO WILL ACTUALLY play for you and it's even more unbalanced. Deduct two other players Wolf will use from the stats from those three and you can also see how critically unbalanced this deal is. But again, the REAL clincher for me is that Wolf is not gaining significance increases in any cat. You say over a month those three will beat him in points. Well add two more players to LeBron (hell I'd take WW players even) and those numbers even more unbalanced. I mean wouldn't you want to get some guys at the top of certain cats to really springboard you? Even unbalanced, I'd have no issues with a similar trade if I could see significant increases in a couple cats. It just does not exist. 200 dror       ID: 5283329       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 17:15 here is an example of some of the players who are corrently on wolfer's team, and their impressive performances at their last game: Luke walton - 21 minutes/2 points/4 boards/3 assists Oberto - 30/6/7/4 Bell - 17/2/2/2 Krstic - 17/8/8/0 Mo Pete - 19/2/0/1 any of these 2, even with Lebron, are not better then then 3 I'm giving him, who are all solid starters on solid teams with a sure 35-40 minutes per game and strong combined contribution to all cats other the blocks. 201 dror       ID: 5283329       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 17:18 In the heat of the discussion, I accidently described Memphis as a "solid" team... sorry about that ;-) 202 dror       ID: 5283329       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 17:22 and I didn't just pick 2 guys at random, I picked the 2 worst guys from wolfer's lineup, who are exactly the players who will leave his lineup along Lebron. Those numbers in post 164 give a very accurate idea about what's gonna change in wolfer's team production after this trade. 203 wiggs       ID: 51013815       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 17:25 ok, i have gotten more votes in. This is what i have so far. No Wiggs Ref KF Frick PhilliesPhan Tosh Yes PD GoldCoach YR That makes 6 No Votes, 3 Yes Votes and nothing from 3spleen. Because of this and discussions with GURU and other former commishes I feel this puts me in an absolutely terrible spot, but i will be vetoing the trade and returning the players to their rightful teams. 204 dror       ID: 5283329       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 17:28 and you know what, even if wolfer's production is only a wash (wich is clearly not the case), it's still not a good enough reason to veto the trade. maybe he feels that with Gasol out and Memphis moving to a smaller lineup and paster pace Miller is going to have a very strong second half? maybe he thinks that with Kid probably out by the deadline Jefferson is going to have to carry even more of the load in NJ? just the fact that we are talking so much about this proves that it is not one sided enough to get overturned. like I said before, the league isn't suppose to police the owner, we need to have the freedom to make our own decisions, even if some of the other owners don't agree with it for one reason or the other. that's what fantasy is all about. 205 dror       ID: 5283329       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 17:32 Wiggs, could you please explain what made you change your mind, as you clearly said before you don't have a problem with the trade? Frick could you please do the same? thanks 206 wiggs       ID: 51013815       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 17:36 i didnt change, i said i am not too upset with the trade. But I said your numbers were bad. The more i thought about it i decided it is real bad. I totally agree with Ref because you cant compare 1 player to 3 players. You need to compare 1 to 1. Lebron with Navarro and Pietrus is much better then Miller, Carter and Jefferson. IMO you need to do all 3 compared to all 3. Dror, I didnt change your line up because I didnt know who you wanted it. Check that please. 207 dror       ID: 5283329       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 17:37 also, there is a problem with tonight's games, as all the 3 players who are mine are playing (and for wolfer), while Lebron is not. Wiggs if you can't change the lineups for tonight I'm gonna have to ask to get Lebron's game tommorow for myself. I think I was screwed enough here to at least not end up losing quality games. 208 wiggs       ID: 51013815       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 17:42 i dont know how to make that work, seems like you have a point. Any help ??? 209 dror       ID: 5283329       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 17:45 if you can't change the lineups, you can just trade lebron to me now, and after the lineups freeze for tommorow trade him back to wolfer. 210 dror       ID: 5283329       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 17:48 and about post 206, that's exactly what I did... 3 against 3... the 3 who will leave wolfer's lineup, compared to the 3 that will come in. but I guess that's water under the bridge, you guys made your decision, and all I got left is that really bad feeling in my stomach. 211 threespleens       Leader       ID: 00795541       Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 19:20 ok i just got around to reading this. i would have voted yes, barely. 212 KnicksFan       Sustainer       ID: 030815418       Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 11:15 I was not able to access Rotoguru.com yesterday (site was down as far as I could tell) so I could not voice my opinion in this thread or hear the arguments from the managers involved in the trade, which would have been helpful. However, I did explain to Ref my thought process. I was on the fence about the trade because I could see where wolfer would benefit in games played and points. But even if the trade is considered a wash in raw statistics, think about the value each team gets in the league standings (which is all that matters). Wolfer is so far behind that even with the trade he will never come out of last place. Meanwhile dror probably stands to gain in key categories that affect his position in the standings. Therefore there seemed to be no incentive for wolfer to make such a trade and great incentive for dror so I voted against it. I will admit there are good arguments from dror and wolfer in this thread and if I had been able to view it I may have been swayed to vote differently. 213 dror       ID: 5283329       Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 11:41 KF (212): Wolfer is so far behind that even with the trade he will never come out of last place. Meanwhile dror probably stands to gain in key categories that affect his position in the standings so basicly, you agree with us that the trade is good for both teams in terms of production, but decided to veto it because you don't like the fact that my team is improving while Wolfer's improvement doesn't really matter... if it's like that, why won't we just kick wolfer out of the league? I mean, he is in a big whole at last place, so according to you, he really has no incentive to continue playing and making efforts to improve his situation. and the funny thing is, you are not the only one who voted in the complete opposite direction of what your rational said... frick did exactly the same thing, as both me and Perm Dude noted here yesterday. guys, I really enjoy this league and I have nothing personal against any of you, but I just can't get seem to get over this... like I said before and will continue to say, this trade was voted off for very wrong and illegitimate reasons. 214 Frick       ID: 23117516       Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 12:33 I did post my rationale in 193. I voted against the trade because of the 3 for 1 aspect. Include the players that are being dropped and added to each team. In a vacuum the trade looks balanced, when you factor in the adds and drops it does not. 215 Weykool       Leader       ID: 41750315       Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 02:48 Intruder- Dror: I think your are clinging to the "if it helps both teams it must be allowed" is a little bit off. I understand your frustration with having your trade overturned. I had one of my trades vetoed in a Guru league and it didnt set well with me either. However, let me propose a scenario for you. Lets assume my team was dead last in 7 out of 8 of the cats but I am middle of the pack in blocks. If I make a trade to a team in contention and give up my 3 best players and get back a couple of shot blockers my team would stand to improve in the standings. Since I cant lose anything in 7 cats I wont miss those stats but I might pick up a couple of points in blocks. If you were being honest I think you can see how a team can "improve" and the trade still be lopsided. Such is the case with the trade that was voted down. While Wolfer might be able to make up a couple of points here and there if you stand to gain 3-5 points for everyone he gains then clearly that smacks of being lopsided. You cant just look at the stats of the players in the trade when your team will be picking up replacements off the waiver wire. 216 KnicksFan       Sustainer       ID: 030815418       Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 12:18 dror, let me clarify. I think that based on raw stats, wolfer can improve in some ways. For example, his scoring will surely increase. However, he is dead last in scoring. Even if this trade will net him 500 more points by the end of the season, he will still be dead last in that category. So even though he is "improved", it means nothing. Meanwhile, you are entrenched in several categories that are tightly contested. This trade will certainly affect your position in those categories. In terms of roto-points, you are truly the only beneficiary in this deal. Also, wolfer doesn't have to try to improve his team through trades. He could get much more value by keeping LeBron and adding a couple free agents from the rich pool of available players. There are many free agents who are ranked higher than a lot of the guys on his roster, but wolfer has not taken advantage of this. He has made fewer transactions than most managers. Frankly, it is too late in the season for wolfer to be competitive anymore. I have been in that situation before; I continued playing because I enjoy following the NBA and rooting for my players. I'm sure wolfer feels the same way. 217 Pacers Rule       Sustainer       ID: 910311210       Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 18:59 Intruder altert #2- Dror, you got totally hosed. Sorry about that, bro. It wasn't like you offered chopped liver for Lebron. You offered three good players, or at least 2 very good and one decent player. You did your research, made a reasonable offer, and the managers who stood to get hurt by your efforts beat you down, whether well-intentioned or not. The fact that you stand to gain in the standings as a result of this trade, if you do, is what should happen after you work a trade. Obviously you'd have also exposed yourself to more injury risk by putting all of your statistical eggs in one basket, so to speak. If you don't need the games played because you've been active on the wire/FA pool and gotten quality games played already, that is no rationale for anyone to use against you, or more specifically, your trade. If wolfer felt he was helping his team, and you made his argument for him to show that he was, there was no excuse to vote to block that trade, imo. You were correct that some contradicted themselves to vote it down, though I see some have used extreme "examples" to show why their position is the "correct" position. We've had two such votes on a couple of trades in AAA #2 this year, both involving me and one involving our commish, and after 3 previous years of RIHC leagues for me with no such votes whatsoever, it was very disappointing to have a couple managers rallying to block legitimate fantasy activity and hiding behind the 'competitive balance' smokescreen. Since there was no collusion or foul play, it is plain and simple...fantasy basketball. While I will compliment your league for your mangers discussing the issues without issuing insults- which some of our managers can't seem to comprehend - the outcome was good in both cases in ours (legitimate trades went through) but not so in yours. Also, as a point of interest, neither of our leagues followed the veto voting rules set up prior to season's start - though ours came much closer to them. Dror- you especially were very civil despite getting the shaft - and I can understand that pit in your stomach. Congrats to you on your sportsmanship, and don't let the buggers get you down :-) 218 dror       ID: 5283329       Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 20:48 OK guys, me and Wolfer have agreed on a new trade. 4 for 4, Lebron, Pietrus, Navarro and Mo Pete for Miller, Jefferson, Carter and Kevin Martin. Here are the average numbers over the last month: The Red Scorpions (Players to Trade) Rankings Stats Players Opp: 2/16 O-Rank Rank GP FG% FT% 3PTM PTS REB AST ST BLK Kevin Martin (Sac - SG) 32 62 15 .423 .886 2.1 20.7 4.7 1.9 0.8 0.0 Richard Jefferson (NJ - SF) 70 114 16 .447 .797 0.9 20.9 4.8 2.8 0.6 0.1 Mike Miller (Mem - SG,SF) 45 87 13 .489 .706 2.5 18.9 5.8 2.5 0.5 0.1 Anthony Carter (Den - PG) 167 82 15 .386 .818 0.6 7.7 3.4 6.4 1.8 0.6 wisconsin wolfers (Players to Trade) Rankings Stats Players Opp: 2/16 O-Rank Rank GP FG% FT% 3PTM PTS REB AST ST BLK Mickael Pietrus (GS - SG,SF) 190 199 11 .333 .818 0.6 3.5 1.6 0.6 1.2 0.6 LeBron James (Cle - SF) 5 4 13 .477 .736 1.4 31.5 8.2 6.7 2.2 1.1 Morris Peterson (NO - SG,SF) 93 195 10 .387 .737 1.5 7.7 1.9 1.7 0.6 0.2 Juan Carlos Navarro (Mem - PG,SG) 181 198 14 .384 .793 1.9 11.6 4.1 2.4 0.4 0.1 The totals: Wolfer get: 68.2 PPG, 18.7 RPG, 13.6 ASP, 3.7 SPG, 0.8 BPG, 6.1 3PG I get: 54.3 PPG, 15.8 RPG, 11.4 ASP, 4.4 SPG, 2 BPG, 5.4 3PG Also, Wolfer improves significantly in FT% (Martin is one of the most dominating FT shooters in the league at 86.7% over 8.6 attemps), while in FG% it's pretty much a wash. Any objections? 219 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 23:51 PR, This is a good league with good people. dror is classy and I, too, sent him a note thanking him for the classy way he handled it. I posted and told him privately to see if he could re-work it. I think what we arrived at when everyone finally understood the process and that they needed to officially vote was that needed to see if they thought the trade was good for the league or not. Fortunately, no one took it personally and only offered their opinions one way or another.Just because people voted one way or the other doesn't mean they are right and the others are wrong. I haven't, nor have I the time to really look at this updated trade yet, but at first glance, I'll say it is better. KMart2 IMM is one of the underrated players in the game (probably because he doesn't do a lot more than score). But he's a typical 2 guard. nice pts, hits some 3s, nice ftp with below avg fgp. The deal is already better than before with him right there. Now whether trading with Wolf will help him enough to matter, well that's not one of my typical measuring sticks. IMM KMart is a type of player who I was talking about and better than any of the other players in the deal. My guess is that I don't object to the deal based solely on the addition of him. Again, for me to vote against a trade, it has to really smack me as critically lopsided and unfair. 220 Pacers Rule       Sustainer       ID: 910311210       Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 01:14 Ref, I just don't get it. Now if you look at the averages over the past month, Dror is actually losing on this new deal in most cats, and he is still feeling the need to ask permission to make sure he isn't ripping wolfer off or looking at a possible trade veto vote again. That just doesn't sound either fun or right to me. He made that other deal between himself and wolfer (a stand-up guy) and even if he would have gained significant ground relative to other managers, it would have been based on his elbow grease. Any other manager was free to make wolfer offers for Lebron and see what happened. This idea that trades which help one team more than the other or help one team too much are bad for the league - I just don't follow that thinking, at all. It rewards managers who sit on their hands and cast stones at other people's work. Not that that's what you personally were doing. But Dror hit it on the head when he identified the fact that the very managers who stand to lose by his gain were voting this down. You're a good dude, Ref. I just would like to see the original trade veto rules known and followed, as they certainly favor letting managers make trades and manage their own teams. But I chose not to commish this year so I guess I have to live with how that's handled. And I'm not complaining about my commish in the least. He has done a fine job. I mostly felt for Dror- so since one from our league came in here and lent support to the trade blocking movement, I just had to express my support for Dror managing his own team and working to improve it without interference from managers who may be good people but stand to gain by blocking his legitimate fantasy activity. Now he has to give up a great player in Kevin Martin and really I don't even see why he's doing this second deal unless he's so far ahead on games played that he's already covered the games that 2 of those players from wolfer would need to play, because they're not even playable guys. 221 youngroman       ID: 3751268       Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 07:53 my opinion on the reworked trade: I don't like it, because wolfer gets way too many in return (4 startable players) for LeBron + 3 Scrubs. I will not vote against it because both managers know what they are doing. Dror, if you really want LeBron that bad, be my guest and sacrifice your bench. It will only get easier for me to win this league. in other news, I announce my All-Star-Team: PG Emanuel Ginobili SG Hidayet Türkoglu SF Gerald Wallace PF Dirk Nowitzki C Marcus Camby congratulations! 222 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 10:25 PR, I am not going to get in a disagreement with you about it when you are misinformed about some of the facts. First, there are four teams who have no chance at winning the league. Three of those teams voted and two of those three teams voted against the deal. Of the other seven that voted, four of them voted against it and a couple of them said JUST BARELY. So to say that only the top teams who are trying to block his "win" is a fallacy. That is not the way I play. I want competition. I want to beat the best. As I said before, I think this is only the second time I've ever voted against a trade. I've questioned them before (Keeper leagues), but ultimately never voted against. For me to do so here, shows that I really feel that deal was critically lopsided. YR: I disagree. I still like dror's side a lot better. I am not going to object to this one but let me show you why dror is still getting the better end of it (though putting all his eggs in one basket and risking a single injury that could kill him). I don't use YTD often when evaluating trades when the season has some age to it. There are guys who haven't played all year and guys get hot or have more or less PT. Also, I don't put much stock into the stats dror posted because lately they guys he's giving away haven't done very well (though Mike Miller had a nice last game). Three players he's getting back might even be dropped and dror cna use existing players and save games or even WW players who are playing better than those guys. LBJ is a stat stuffer. He's going to improve you in every single cat. when he plays. FTP has been a little bit down this year but it has been better lately. The way he's shooting them now won't hurt you at all. Inf act his avg is better than many team's avgs. Players Opp: 2/17 O-Rank Rank FG% FT% 3PTM PTS REB AST ST BLK Kevin Martin (Sac - SG) 32 149 .313 .840 3 54 16 5 2 0 Richard Jefferson (NJ - SF) 70 121 .375 .762 1 47 21 8 2 0 Mike Miller (Mem - SG,SF) 45 62 .563 .556 7 48 19 9 1 0 Anthony Carter (Den - PG) 167 208 .176 1.000 0 10 9 12 4 1 Mickael Pietrus (GS - SG,SF) 190 180 .500 .500 2 9 5 2 4 2 LeBron James (Cle - SF) 5 12 .522 .786 4 98 18 22 5 2 Morris Peterson (NO - SG,SF) 93 359 - - 0 0 0 0 0 0 Juan Carlos Navarro (Mem - PG,SG) 181 133 .353 1.000 4 33 15 5 1 0 I agree that one week is not a true measuring stick, but it is one kind of measuring stick that I look at along with others. Really the only thing dror seems to be losing is pts and ftp and perhaps a couple 3s--while gaining even more fgp and is even or gaining everywhere else. I like dror's deal better. 95% of the time, I believe that people need to stay out of other people's trading business. I was asked to explain a trade earlier this year and that is fine. The NBA announced yesterday that they would not allow Stackhouse to re-sign with Dallas after other GMs complained about him "resting" for 30 days and coming back. I think the process worked here. This league has been so fun to play in. The people have been great and that's most of it, but also to have 8 teams in range to win it and over half-way through shows that it's very competitive. PR, you know I value and welcome your opinion. I don't mind outsiders coming in and posting. Weykool is not in the league and he felt it should be vetoed. We all have opinions and different ways to look at things and some of those views may open up someone's eyes to yet another way of looking at things. Bottom line is that it's just a game. This is no place for personal attacks and I hope that we'd all act the same way dror did if in his position. Defend your trade to the death, but then go in and throw in another wrinkle to try and get it done. In the meantime, no one else was trying to hit wolf up with a trade for LBJ. IMM it's wolf's and dror's trade to get done and they did that forthwith. 223 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 10:28 Let me clarify a point I made above. Of the top 7 teams to vote, four voted against it and two others said just barely. Voting for or against it was NOT based on standings. 224 dror       ID: 5283329       Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 12:05 thanks YR, now I finnaly get a chance to talk a little about my side of the deal, not just wolfer's ;-) the way I read the situation at the top of the standings now, is that if I won't make a move I'm right on track to finish 3rd. Both you and KF have better teams then mine, and despite the fact that I'm hanging on for now, I don't beleive I will be able to keep up with you two for the rest of the year. So I had to take a chance and gamble that I will be able to replace the production of the 3 spots that are vacating in this trade with my bench/WW. If I will be able to do that, I think I have a good chance to win it all, and if not, I woudln't be surprised if I fall all the way to 5th or 6th, because I am giving up a ton here to get just 1 player. But in the end of the day, we play to win it all, especially in a AA league were only the winner goes to the main RIHC next year, and that's what I'm trying to do. oh, and here are my allstars, after the new trade: G Baron Davis G Peja F Lebron F Marvin Williams C Yao A pretty good group I think 225 Goldcoach       ID: 439131016       Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 15:07 A few comments from a newcomer to RotoGuru leagues. 1. THANKS FOR CARING! I can't tell you the number of leagues I've been in that have had managers that have QUIT by this time. Wolfer is to be commended for striving to improve, as is Dror. 2. Thanks for being "sportsmen" in discussing differences of opinion. I appreciate the honest and frank discussions without the "adjectives" that have been thrown around in other leagues/forums. 3. Thanks for being knowledgable; not basing opinions on "player popularity" as so many real fans do, but noting the box scores and stats which is the basis for fantasy sports anyway. 4. My allstars G Brandon Roy G Cory Magette F Josh Smith F Lamar Odom C Amare Stoudemire Now for the second "half" comeback of the Goldnets 226 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Thu, Feb 21, 2008, 14:39 Well gotta hand it to dror. Geting LBJ has already paid dividends and has jumped into first place. Wish I had thought of it. My team isn't bad but the two trades I did make aren't going to be enough as they haven't helped me at all. Jermo needs to come back asap, but losing in other areas as I'm so far behind in 3s and blks and gave up some huge players chasing these two cats. I need some major contributors in these cats asap or I'll have to settle as an also-ran. 227 dror       ID: 5283329       Tue, Feb 26, 2008, 14:47 Yao out for year... I had a bad feeling something like that was coming... such a bad feeling that a few days ago I decided to pick up Scola just in case... my chances to somehow win this thing just took a huge blow. 228 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Tue, Mar 04, 2008, 15:51 I have assists available for trade. 229 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Sun, Apr 13, 2008, 00:59 Grat job KF. I don't see how I can catch you. Even under the best scenario I think I lose by a point. The worst, I come in 3rd place and lose by 3 points or so. 230 dror       ID: 5283329       Thu, Apr 17, 2008, 08:15 Congrads KF for a terrific season and a well deserved championship, thanks everyone for a fun and active league and special thanks to Wiggs for running the whole thing! Like I thought during the allstar break, KF and YR clearly had the best teams, Ref made a great run during the final month but it wasn't enough to upset one of them. As for myself, the one thing I couldn't afford after the Lebron trade is a big injury, and that exactly what happened as my season broke down along with Yao's foot. 231 KnicksFan       Sustainer       ID: 030815418       Thu, Apr 17, 2008, 10:31 Thanks guys, it was a very fun and competitive league. Things just fell into place for me this year. Drafting Chris Paul was very lucky. After I had a big lead in the PG stats I was presented with the opportunity to parlay Paul into Amare and bump up my big man stats. Also, I got hugely lucky to grab Monta Ellis off of waivers very early in the season. Now I have to keep up the intensity next season in the big leagues so I don't finish near the bottom like last time I was in the RIHC. 232 Perm Dude       ID: 13336177       Thu, Apr 17, 2008, 10:42 Nice job! I got Elton Brand for about a week in the end--gave me another half point, I think! 233 Ref       Donor       ID: 539581218       Thu, Apr 17, 2008, 11:10 Great job KF!!! I was ahead for a long time in the middle and briefly at the end. I took some chances this year and ultimately it didn't help me. The Jermo trade backfired huge for me as he never played until theend and then was just a waste of games. Sending Durant and Sheed away hurt too. TJ hurt me in that when he came back, he cost me GPs too until a few at the end. But that's the way it goes. What really bums me out is that I felt the best I could do was come up a point short so I started taking some chances with some WW guys at the end. Turns out I briefly got an unexpected point in FGP, but by then my WW guys cost me a point in FTP then ultimately they cost me wasted games and I fell back a couple more points. But I'd rather fall back and finish 3rd then barely finish 2nd! This was a fun league. Sure we didn't talk a lot--esp. after the trade deadline, but trade talks were a lot of fun. My mix just wasn't right--too SG laiden but ultimately I couldn't make trades at the deadline as there wasn't a good fit. Nice Draft. Nice trade talks. Good people. Good managers. Good fun. 234 youngroman       ID: 3751268       Thu, Apr 17, 2008, 13:41 congratulations KnicksFan! Damn, I lost by 3 REB, 1 BLK and 1 3PM. and that after 1012 games played. my team looked good all year long but was hit by lots of injuries to key players (Dirk, G Wallace, T-Mac, Ginobili, Harris) during the 2nd half. trading away Odom/Miller for Wallace/Cassell was a bad one but I don't think that it really hurt me because the categories where I needed the stats were 3s and STL and FG% and neither Odom nor Miller were really good at them. I knew 2 months ago that the maximum I can get out of my team would be 72 points (I only needed 8 more threes for that) at least this brings me to AAA next year to get a better shot at the big league the year after. special thanks to Hedo and Manu for their career years and the Cambyman for appearing in 79 games. Wow! 235 Goldcoach       ID: 893426       Fri, Apr 18, 2008, 09:36 Congrats KF! Well Done! Thanks to all the managers for a good and active season. and a special thanks to Wiggs for commishing. 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