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Subject: We are war weary, but not complacent - Pat Tillman
Posted by: Seattle Zen
- [178161719] Mon, May 23, 2005, 02:23
The family of former NFL player Pat Tillman says the Army disrespected his memory by lying in its investigation of his death in Afghanistan last year
We are so used to lies from our federal government, particularly when it comes to war. We are told that some obsfucation is necessary as a matter of "national security", but I cannot stand idly by as my government lies to us over a matter like this. By purposely lying to Tillman's family and to the American public, the military-entertainment establishment wrongfully created a hero when a trajedy happened. Wouldn't want the Republicans' base - the white male sports fan - to peer at the raw horror that is war. It is best to make up a tale about his heroism and retire his number in every stadium lest you lose the only real supporters of these wars. The NFL has basically stated that quitting football and joining the army is of the same moral weight as what Jackie Robinson did. Please! Hank Greenburg gave up five years in his prime to fight in two wars, and he was one of the best ever.
In interviews with The Washington Post, the Army Ranger's mother and father said they believe the military and the government created a heroic tale about how their son died to foster a patriotic response across the country.
"Pat had high ideals about the country; that's why he did what he did," Mary Tillman told the Post. "The military let him down. The administration let him down. It was a sign of disrespect. The fact that he was the ultimate team player and he watched his own men kill him is absolutely heartbreaking and tragic. The fact that they lied about it afterward is disgusting."
Fight an unpopular, immoral war and expect lies to keep the truth hidden. |
| 1 | nerveclinic
ID: 3454230
Mon, May 23, 2005, 02:45
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This is an intense story.
The inuendo his mother is implying is nothing short of a conspiracy if you read between the lines...heck you don't even need to read between them. She seems to be saying theres more to this story.
With each new version of events, her mind swirls with new theories about what really happened and why. She questions how an elite Army unit could gun down its most recognizable member at such close range. She dwells on distances and boulders and piles of documents and the words of frenzied men.
"It makes you feel like you're losing your mind in a way," she said. "You imagine things. When you don't know the truth, certain details can be blown out of proportion. The truth may be painful, but it's the truth. You start to contrive all these scenarios that could have taken place because they just kept lying. If you feel you're being lied to, you can never put it to rest."
developing...
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| 2 | Cosmo's Cod Piece
ID: 11314719
Mon, May 23, 2005, 06:18
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Zen: "The NFL has basically stated that quitting football and joining the army is of the same moral weight as what Jackie Robinson did. Please! Hank Greenburg gave up five years in his prime to fight in two wars, and he was one of the best ever."
He walked away from millions of dollars to fight in Afghanistan. Can't get too much ballsier than that.
I'd be interested in seeing a quote from the NFL correlating Pat Tillman to Jackie Robinson.
"Fight an unpopular, immoral war and expect lies to keep the truth hidden."
He died in Afghanistan. Are you saying that particular war was unpopular and immoral?
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| 3 | Tree
ID: 23435235
Mon, May 23, 2005, 06:35
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CCP- it used to be common place for professional athletes to give up some, or all, of their careers, to serve this country. Greenberg as above, and even Ted Williams, one of the greatest players ever, served, for THREE years.
CCP - at one point, the war in afghanistan made sense. it may even still. are we there still? i barely see any news on our soldiers dying there. the war in afghanistan enveloped into the "war on terror", which now includes Iraq, which, has been proven, was never a threat to us.
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| 4 | Tree
ID: 23435235
Mon, May 23, 2005, 06:41
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i just realized however, CCP, that you try to divert from the main argument, and didn't even comment on it - that being that the U.S. Military, and our government, lied about the death of Pat Tillman to create a hero.
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| 5 | Texas Flood
ID: 348815
Mon, May 23, 2005, 08:41
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More than a few people called Tillman foolish and even mocked him for leaving the NFL to serve in the armed forces. He was often called a fool and was hardly considered a hero among the anti-war crowd.
I think it's shameful the way the government used him as hero and recruiting tool but its no worse than the anti war crowd pointing fingers at the lying government and pretending to now care about Tillman and his family.
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| 6 | Razor
ID: 36241218
Mon, May 23, 2005, 09:03
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He was often called a fool and was hardly considered a hero among the anti-war crowd.
Haven't you guys found a new song and dance yet? The vast majority of the anti-war crowd are pro-soldiers. Personally, I view Pat Tillman as no more or less of a hero than any of the other 200,000 or so troops. Just because I don't agree with our reasons for going to way or deify him doesn't mean I don't respect his service to this country.
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| 7 | CCP
ID: 11014112
Mon, May 23, 2005, 09:42
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Tree: "i just realized however, CCP, that you try to divert from the main argument, and didn't even comment on it - that being that the U.S. Military, and our government, lied about the death of Pat Tillman to create a hero"
I understand what you're saying and before I comment on anything I at least want the main argument defined and my questions answered so that when I do comment, I have sufficient data to do so.
To answer you before I read Zen's answers, Pat Tillman is just as much if not more of a hero than any soldier out there because he left behind much more than the "average" person. All our troops are hereos, but his additional sacrifice stands out.
I am at work and an unable to fully read Zenmaster's link, but from what I gather so far is that this is primarily from the mother. In her justified grief and anger the poor woman may say anything she wants and has the right to.
I will reserve judgement on whether an intentional lie occurred or if somebody jumped the gun in filing the original death report or some other instance that created a confusion of communication.
Obviously if the lie was intentional, then the commanding officer who ordered that lie should be removed from command.
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| 8 | Texas Flood
ID: 326462912
Mon, May 23, 2005, 09:42
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Mocking Tillman for enlisting was supporting the troops? How so?
Furthermore, I'm not necessarily one of "you guys" I was making an observation about the anti war movement and thier contempt for Tillman who was a pro war guy, obviously.
Again I'll go on record as saying what the government did to promote the war and patriotism by using the image of Tillman and the NFL to reach young propspective recruits was terrible.
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| 9 | CCP
ID: 11014112
Mon, May 23, 2005, 09:43
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That above post being said, I do expect an answer from Zen because he makes some bold comments on Pat Tillman vs. Jackie Robinson and he alludes to how the Afghanistan War was unpopular and immoral.
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| 10 | sarge33rd
ID: 3042239
Mon, May 23, 2005, 10:06
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TF, nobody I have seen/heard/talked with...mocked Tillman for his decision. Every person I am personally aware of, held the thought that his act was an utterly selfless one.
Before you pull out a 8" brush to do the trim painting, look and see if you dont have a 2" one available.
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| 11 | Pancho Villa
Sustainer
ID: 533817
Mon, May 23, 2005, 10:08
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All our troops are hereos..
the commanding officer who ordered that lie should be removed from command
But he's still a hero?
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| 12 | sarge33rd
ID: 3042239
Mon, May 23, 2005, 10:09
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any and everyone in uniform is a hero, unless/until they prove themselves undeserving of the recognition.
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| 13 | Pancho Villa
Sustainer
ID: 533817
Mon, May 23, 2005, 10:13
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any and everyone in uniform is a hero
Doesn't that kind of cheapen the definition? I would adjust that to say that "everyone in uniform has the potential to be a hero," but a great number of the people in uniform will never be in a position to actually do something heroic.
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| 14 | Tree
ID: 9362211
Mon, May 23, 2005, 10:24
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from this Yahoo story, i see even more that disgusts me...
Tillman, a popular player for the Arizona Cardinals, gave up stardom in the National Football League after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks to join the Army Rangers with his brother. After a tour in Iraq, their unit was sent to Afghanistan in spring 2004, where they were to hunt for the Taliban and Osama bin Laden. Shortly after arriving in the mountains to fight, Tillman was killed in a barrage of gunfire from his own men, mistaken for the enemy as he got into position to defend them.
Immediately, the Army kept the soldiers on the ground quiet and told Tillman's family and the public that he was killed by enemy fire while storming a hill, barking orders to his fellow Rangers. After a public memorial service, at which Tillman received the Silver Star, the Army told Tillman's family what had really happened, that he had been killed by his own men...
...The latest investigation, written about by The Washington Post earlier this month, showed that soldiers in Afghanistan knew almost immediately that they had killed Tillman by mistake in what they believed was a firefight with enemies on a tight canyon road. The investigation also revealed that soldiers later burned Tillman's uniform and body armor.
That information was slow to make it back to the United States, the report said, and Army officials here were unaware that his death on April 22, 2004, was fratricide when they notified the family that Tillman had been shot.
anyone who still believes that this administration won't stoop to new lows time and time again is sadly fooling themselves. this country is currently led by the worst kind of cowards, thieves, and liars, and i feel pity for those so ignorant that they'll continue to buy the $hit they're selling.
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| 15 | sarge33rd
ID: 3042239
Mon, May 23, 2005, 10:54
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by servong PV, by sacrificing the family time, by sacrificing the higher pay in the civilian sector, by sacrificing their personal time to the extent the ilitary demands....they are ALL heroes. One need not leap upon a grenade, to be a hero.
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| 16 | bibA
Sustainer
ID: 261028117
Mon, May 23, 2005, 14:54
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The parents, especially the father, have been attempting to ascertain exactly what happened since the tragedy took place. They BOTH feel that they have been stonewalled from the onset, and the father has expressed dissatisfaction with the investigation more than once.
As I'm sure everyone is aware, Pat Tillman's brother was in the area during the shooting. It is my understanding that he wasn't told immediately that his brother had been killed. Has anyone heard or read anything re: the brother's perspective on the situation? I would imagine he has talked with everyone who was there.
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| 17 | Motley Crue
ID: 52450513
Mon, May 23, 2005, 16:00
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I didn't realize the definition of the word was open to interpretation. Sacrifice is not all that is neccessary to be a hero.
Tillman was likely already a millionaire and the paycut was certainly not a huge consideration for him.
My point is, that we are not thinking about all of the aspects of heroism when we throw that word around now. Being a hero is not as easy as putting on a uniform. It takes much more than that.
That information was slow to make it back to the United States, the report said, and Army officials here were unaware that his death on April 22, 2004, was fratricide when they notified the family that Tillman had been shot. --Tree, #14
That actually makes me feel better. It was an honest mistake when his parents were told. Of course, the report that came through to the officials was full of crap, and that's disturbing. But it was a good faith mistake on the part of the parental notifiers.
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| 18 | Seattle Zen
ID: 178161719
Mon, May 23, 2005, 17:21
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Re post 10
I mocked Tillman's decision. Ever since we invaded Afghanistan, I no longer believe that joining the military is "serving one's country" and actively discourage anyone from joining. I believe that the WTC bombing retaliation-search for Bin Ladin was a smoke screen for the real reason we removed the Taliban - the Afghan natural gas pipeline. Hey, I hated the Taliban as much as anyone, but we are a nation proud of the fact that we did not start wars, we did not invade soverign lands. Now that our military are used as henchmen for energy interests, I urge everyone to refuse to serve.
The war in Afghanistan was VERY unpopular. Ask anyone outside of the United States and you would realize that. It was immoral because it was a war for a pipeline.
I'd be interested in seeing a quote from the NFL correlating Pat Tillman to Jackie Robinson.
CCP - I was under the impression that the NFL has retired #40, Tillman's number, on every team and hung a banner in each stadium in his honor. I then started perusing NFL rosters and saw that many teams still have players wearing number 40. Therefore I retract my Jackie Robinson comparison. That said, the NFL's actions are still part of the military-entertainment complex's propaganda machine, and rather digusting.
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| 19 | bibA
Sustainer
ID: 261028117
Sat, Mar 04, 2006, 22:53
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Apparently the Army is going to open up a criminal investigation into the manner in which Tillman was killed.
I wonder what has come to light after two years, and I still wonder what his brother has to say about exactly what happened.
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| 20 | Seattle Zen
ID: 46315247
Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 23:36
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A Pentagon investigation will recommend that nine officers, including up to four generals, be held accountable for missteps in the aftermath of the friendly fire death of Army Ranger Pat Tillman in Afghanistan
Dozens of soldiers - those immediately around Tillman at the scene of the shooting, his immediate superiors and high-ranking officers at a command post nearby - knew within minutes or hours that his death was fratricide.
Even so, the Army persisted in telling Tillman's family he was killed in a conventional ambush, including at his nationally televised memorial service 11 days later. It was five weeks before his family was told the truth, a delay the Army has blamed on procedural mistakes.
The latest investigation has focused on how high up the chain of command it was known that Tillman's death was caused by his own comrades. Officers from the rank of colonel and up will be blamed in the report, according to one officer who has been informed of the findings.
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| 21 | Tree
ID: 29082512
Tue, Apr 24, 2007, 15:18
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Lynch, Tillman's brother: U.S. military lied
Former Pfc. Jessica Lynch and the brother of Army Ranger Pat Tillman told a House panel Tuesday that the U.S. military lied about Tillman's death and Lynch's capture.
Also during Tuesday's testimony, the last soldier to see Tillman alive, Spc. Bryan O'Neal, told lawmakers that he was warned by superiors not to divulge -- especially to the Tillman family -- that a fellow soldier killed Tillman...
..."A soldier came into the room. He tore the American flag from his uniform, and he handed it to me in my hand and he told me, 'We're American soldiers, and we're here to take you home.' And I looked at him and I said, 'Yes, I'm an American soldier, too,' " Lynch recalled.
She was distraught to come home and find herself billed as a hero when two of her fellow soldiers had fought bravely until the firefight's end and another had died after picking up soldiers and removing them from harm's way.
"The American people are capable of determining their own ideals for heroes, and they don't need to be told elaborate lies," she said. "I had the good fortune to come home and to tell the truth. Many soldiers, like Pat Tillman, did not have that opportunity.
good for Kevin Tillman, and good for Jessica Lynch. by speaking out like this, now, finally, she truly is becoming a hero.
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| 22 | Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Tue, Apr 24, 2007, 17:08
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Way to go, Ms. Lynch, that was brave of you.
Now if you could give Steve Houpt a phone call and clue him in as well...
After re-reading post 62 in the above linked thread, I can see why Steve H doesn't post around here anymore, he must have gotten tired of making a fool of himself. Baldy, on the other hand...
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| 23 | Tree
ID: 29082512
Tue, Apr 24, 2007, 17:17
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wow. i had forgotten about that thread. FOUR years ago i started that...dang...
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| 24 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Tue, Apr 24, 2007, 21:38
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SZ...looking back at that particular post, I'm ashamed to admit that Imissed and failed to respond to this line:
None of these weapons can be converted from firing blanks to live, or back again, in a speedy manner.
ummm, it requires approx 8-10 seconds to remove a blank-adaptor from an M16 of ANY configuration, and then 3 or 4 more to swap out the magazine of blanks for a magazine of live ammo. Total elapsed time if you're NOT trying to do it quickly? 11-14 seconds....tops. If you're proficient? I'd wager, the change-over could be done in under 8 seconds total.
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| 25 | Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Wed, Apr 25, 2007, 12:26
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Hey, sarge, now that you're here, what do you think now that it has been shown that on more than one occasion the Army has lied mightily to the American public? You get so outraged when this Administration lies and covers things up, what about these cases? Rather than talk about blanks, are you not furious that the military lied to you? Ms. Lynch was so upset that her accident was used to create a pathetic, 4th grade level propaganda piece that she went to Congress to complain. What about you?
And what about the rest of the people who were so quick to attack me? There should be universal condemnation from everyone. When the military fabricates heroic tales, they denigrate true heroism. Well, some of us around here think that every solider is a hero, so the denigration isn't all on the Administration.
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| 26 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Wed, Apr 25, 2007, 22:06
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not about to defend some of the BS the military establishment has pulled. I disagree entirely, with cover-ups and public dis-information campaigns, regardless of the source.
I'll still however, ultimately hold the politicians reesponsibole for them. It is THEY, who decide military policy, not the military itself. JCS (Joint Chiefs of Staff), is political in nature, not military. Anyone who denies that, denies that General Officers are popliticians more than military commanders. At that pay grade, it isnt military prowess that keeps a career going, its how well you play the DC Shuffle.
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| 27 | Perm Dude
ID: 12341288
Sun, Apr 29, 2007, 01:52
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Glenn Greenwald with his usual good stuff, about Lynch and Tilman
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| 28 | Perm Dude
ID: 54650208
Fri, Jul 20, 2007, 23:48
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White House claimes executive priviledge over Tilman documents.
I think we can get a good look at their basis, in the first block quote of the story:
The White House has refused to give Congress documents about the death of former NFL player Pat Tillman, with White House counsel Fred F. Fielding saying that certain papers relating to discussion of the friendly-fire shooting "implicate Executive Branch confidentiality interests."
It is embarrasing or illegal, so we need to claim some sort of Executive-ness about it all so we don't have to talk about it.
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| 29 | Tree
ID: 5615211
Sat, Jul 21, 2007, 02:18
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i'm surprised that there was no executive claims made about why Cheney is taking over for two hours tomorrow during Bush's colonoscopy. i imagine they'll find out not only is he full of $hit, but he's got his own head way up there too...
as for Cheney, i imagine we'll start bombing Iran while he's in charge....
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| 30 | Tree
ID: 76122620
Thu, Jul 26, 2007, 22:42
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man, now it's looking like Tillman might have been murdered, and the Bush administration covered it up...
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| 31 | Perm Dude
ID: 138411411
Fri, Sep 14, 2007, 13:39
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Hapless Rangers?
Reminds me of this Onion story.
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| 32 | Boldwin
ID: 385382422
Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 14:02
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Couldn't figure out where to put this...
May we all have a trooper for a wife like this one. Really lovin' her bigtime.
Getting treatment for PTSD, easier said than done.
Someday we'll all have quality government supplied medicine.
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| 33 | Tree
ID: 575292516
Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 17:36
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May we all have a trooper for a wife like this one. Really lovin' her bigtime.
do you feel the same way about the stripper takes off her clothes to feed her kids?
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