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0 Subject: Hugo Chavez: Fidel Castro for the next century

Posted by: Myboyjack
- Dude [14826271] Sat, Mar 06, 2004, 15:29

Venezuelans March to Protest Recall Vote

Blowing whistles and chanting, tens of thousands of Venezuelans marched through Caracas on Saturday to protest the rejection of a petition aimed at recalling President Hugo Chavez. ....
"We're prepared to take to the streets a thousand times until we're allowed the recall referendum," said opposition leader Henry Ramos Allup. "Nobody is going to rob us of our right to oust Hugo Chavez peacefully."


Opposition leaders have appealed to the Organization of American States and the U.S.-based Carter Center for support, saying the stability of the world's fifth-biggest oil exporter is at stake[good luck getting the Carter Center to take a left-wing wannabe dictator on head-on]
Chavez also denied National Guard troops committed abuses while trying to control rioting last week. He said his opponents, who burned tires, blocked roads and hurled gasoline bombs at soldiers, instigated the violence.


He accused the United States of spreading lies about his government and urged foreign governments to condemn U.S. intrusion in Venezuelan affairs.


Hopefully, with no Cold War limitations, we can handle this better than we did Cuba.




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120Truthsabitchinnit
      ID: 4828416
      Sat, Mar 08, 2008, 16:53
The point I was coming to was correctly understood by #117, Vietnam has nawt to do with the topic at hand (supporting South-/Central-American guerillas, that is).
121Truthsabitchinnit
      ID: 4828416
      Sat, Mar 08, 2008, 17:04
And by the way, I don't know how you figure "communism = not ok" for me, I'm all for nations' right to choose their own path with no pre-set rules or models of "best practice" that are highly contextual at best and can not be imported from outside anyway. I think I don't need to name any names, suffice it so say there are many who still believe there was lot to be accomplished in Vietnam and that going in was the correct decision.
122Perm Dude
      ID: 3925889
      Sat, Mar 08, 2008, 17:07
b.), how they went on to stay communist (i.e. the polar opposite of turning out ok according to many)

So you are putting up talking points with which you disagree?

I think I don't need to name any names,

Suffice to say to you don't actually need to do anything if you are going to put forth some mystical "some people say" arguments.
123Truthsabitchinnit
      ID: 4828416
      Sat, Mar 08, 2008, 17:14
So according to you, pretty much everyone agree that going to Vietnam was a failure? Interesting viewpoint, that.

So you are putting up talking points with which you disagree?

Yes. Can I? I got confused with this: "Is that what South Korea was about? How about Vietnam? They turned out OK." How does any of this have anything to do with anything, in the context of the topic at hand? You wrote this seemingly as a reply to

So supporting murdering, kidnapping, child-raping thugs might or might not be ok, depending on their perceived political stance (as in, left or right)? I get it.

I fail to see the relevance here, considering the actual talking-point.
124Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Sat, Mar 08, 2008, 22:16
Vietnam turned out fine, in the end, despite our own involvement. I realize that "communism" = "not OK" to you but, given the choice between thousands dying in a war to stop communinsm and actual communism in Vietnam, I think the Vietnamese are far better off under the current government.

After all, it was this "not OK" government that went in and stopped the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia while we were content to just sit by and set them sow the killing fields with literally millions of people.
- PD

"Vietnam turned out fine, in the end" - PD ...

Unless you had to suffer the world's lowest standard of living IF you were fortunate enuff to avoid being put in the death camps [which had the same motto Hitler's death camps had over the front gate].

BTW the only way out of the death camps was by picking some other poor innocent victim of communism, calling him out and accusing him of being an enemy of the people, and then at the cost of someone else's life you might buy your way out.

Just hunky dory, PD. Peaches and cream. Why can't everyone have such a happy ending? Every liberal at least.

"while we were content to just sit by and set them sow the killing fields with literally millions of people" - PD

"We" weren't content. It is the 'peace' crowd who are content with every communist killing field and gulag and death camp. Don't you dare lay that at the feet of the people who fought communism. After people like you disarmed our allies in S.V.N. [took the bullets right out of their guns] there wasn't much point in asking you to go along with saving the Cambodians.

125Perm Dude
      ID: 3925889
      Sat, Mar 08, 2008, 23:40
What nonsense. You wrap yourself around every revisionist history which makes the Right feel good, Baldwin, all the while decrying revisionism as a tool of the left.

The Khmer Rouge came to power after illegal bombing of their country for years by the US, and were removed by Vietnamese troops in 1979.

Of course, you want it both ways: The "peace" crowd is both pro-Vietnam and pro-killing fields. You can't even remain internally consistent.

What a wacko you've turned into. Your hatred of the "left" has warped you into a bitter old man, muttering about what might have been if only people had listened to you.
126Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Sun, Mar 09, 2008, 12:10
Funny how 'incursions' into Cambodia were cause for hysteria from the left when Nixon did it but great when communists did it. Go to the memorial to the millions killed and sneer at the domino theory just for old time's sake.

Darkly hilarious that you think the bombing of communists in Cambodia was the problem and not communists in Cambodia being the problem.
127Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Mon, May 19, 2008, 21:52
Despite being rebuffed by the voters of Venezuale who rejected a referendum to give the president sweeping constitutional power over the economy and public institutions ,Chavez seizes more power anyway.

His plan to starve Venzeuala and make it a haven for investment for human rights abusers, China, Iran and Cuba seems to be working magnificently. First he had to run out the Swiss, French and American companies to make way for his Who's Who of tyranical regimes. Well done, Hugo and his apologists.

One significant measure is foreign investment, which has hit record levels in several other Latin American countries but has fallen in Venezuela.

As foreign interests reacted to Mr. Chávez’s socialist-inspired changes, including nationalizations last year of major electricity, telephone and oil companies, outside investment dropped to just $500 million in 2007. In contrast, Peru, with a population comparable to Venezuela’s 27 million, received $5.4 billion in foreign investment last year.

Still, Mr. Chávez is pressing ahead with the takeovers of companies big and small. These include Sidor, a large, Argentine-controlled steel maker; cement companies owned by Mexican, Swiss and French investors; more than 30 sugar plantations; a large dairy products company; and a sprawling cattle estate on the southern plains.



But Mr. Chávez is wagering that he can fill the gap, particularly in foreign investment, through new ventures with allies like Cuba and Iran.

For instance, after a three-day visit here last month by a high-level Iranian delegation, Venezuela and Iran agreed to build a manufacturing plant for tractor parts and a cement factory. Similarly, Venezuela announced the creation this month of two companies with Cuban partners in the fishing and pork industries.

Potentially of greater impact, China and Venezuela inaugurated the headquarters here of a $6 billion fund this month to carry out infrastructure projects. Beijing is putting $4 billion into the fund, part of an effort by Mr. Chávez to export more oil to China in exchange for more Chinese investment in Venezuela.


Kick out all the companies from democratic countries and bring in the totalitarian regimes. He has never been about democracy.

128Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Mon, May 19, 2008, 21:57
Personally, I despise the fact that he has restricted the press, amongst other things. Otherwise, I like the direction he is taking Venezuela.

--Seattle Zen
129Boldwin
      ID: 58452178
      Mon, May 19, 2008, 22:00
Can Suddan and N Korea be far behind?
130Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Fri, May 23, 2008, 13:33
Maxine Waters: Hugo Chavez with a smaller vocabulary. Hilarious video.
131biliruben
      ID: 33258140
      Fri, May 23, 2008, 13:36
Took you long enough! ;)

Read her quote last night, and was sure I'd see it here this morning.

132Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Fri, May 23, 2008, 13:39
Been busy.
133Perm Dude
      ID: 3345239
      Fri, May 23, 2008, 13:41
... by a mainstream American politician...

In no way is she mainstream!
134Boldwin
      ID: 58452178
      Fri, May 23, 2008, 19:35
The look on the other's faces over her inability to come up with the word 'nationalize' was priceless.
135Boldwin
      ID: 58452178
      Fri, May 23, 2008, 19:37
Then again it is a comfort the concept was that foreign to her I guess. Wouldn't want that on the tip of congressional tongues.
136Perm Dude
      ID: 20746619
      Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 20:51
Has Venezuela had enough of Chavez' power grabs?
137Perm Dude
      ID: 111571622
      Tue, Feb 17, 2009, 12:56
Hugo Chevez: Dictator for life.
138Seattle Zen
      ID: 151371711
      Tue, Feb 17, 2009, 13:01
It's rather ridiculous to claim that someone who has to run for reelection is a "dictator for life", PD.

Is that what you call Mayor Bloomburg?
139Perm Dude
      ID: 111571622
      Tue, Feb 17, 2009, 13:10
You're right--anyone who bullies his political opponents, harrasses the media when he doesn't get favorable coverage (including his first attempts to get rid of term limits), spends hours of state television time every week giving speeches on himself, and clearly conflates his own political fortunes with his country is hardly dictorial.

My bad.
140Seattle Zen
      ID: 151371711
      Tue, Feb 17, 2009, 16:20
So, you were talking about Mayor Bloomberg.
141Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 13:55
Gingrich: handshake will become 'propaganda'

Meredith Vieira: What do you take away from the president's visit to Latin America? What do you think his goals were and in your estimation, was it a successful trip?

Newt Gingrich: Well I think first of all the importance of the Chavez smile and handshake is illustrated by your report just now on the jump in the book sales from number 54,000 to number 2. Everywhere in Latin America, enemies of America are going to use the picture of Chavez smiling and being with the president as proof that Chavez is now legitimate, that he's acceptable. He is a dictatorial figure. He is an anti-American figure.

But what I find distressing is that this administration is opposed to looking for oil off shore, but the president bows to the Saudi King. The president is friends with the Venezuela, whose biggest impact on us is that they sell us a lot of oil.

And I just think there's a shallowness about how they analyze this. It does matter to the world if the United States tolerates a vicious anti-American propaganda campaign and then smiles and greets the person who's systematically been anti-American for his entire career.

MV: But Newt you heard what the president said, that he does not believe that the man's hand will endanger the strategic interests of the United States. So you disagree with that.

NG: First of all I think stopping us from [inaudible] oil is dangerous to our strategic interest. But I think we've had weakness in the last two weeks with North Korea, we have weakness with Iran, we have bowing to the Saudi King, we have weakness with Hamas, we have weakness with Cuba - and Cuba has not released a single political prisoner. And I think we have to recognize that if the administration wants to look at facts, that the record is even worse than the smiles and the handshakes.

MV: But do you think he should not be trying to mend relationships with other world leaders?

NG: How do you mend relationships with somebody who hates your country, who actively calls for the destruction of your country and who wants to undermine you?

MV: We certainly have mended relationships with countries that have hated us in the past. Russia comes to mind, China comes to mind.

NG: But we didn't rush over, smile and greet Russian dictators. We understood who they were. Yeah, you could talk, I'm not against him talking to Chavez, but you have to talk to Chavez in a cold and distant way because Chavez openly, constantly attacks the United States. Just as the Iranians are building a nuclear weapon every day. And smiling at them doesn't slow them down a bit.

MV: You have called the Obama Administration, "the most radical left-wing administration in American history with a fantasy foreign policy that has no connection to reality." Do you believe we are headed straight for a major foreign policy crisis?

NG: I think inevitably, sooner or later, we're going to have a big problem. And what I said is based on what I just said to you. The North Koreans fire a missile: nothing happens. The Iranians announce their 7300th centrifuge to build nuclear weapons: nothing happens. Hamas fires another missile at Israel: nothing happens. Cuba releases zero prisoners: we make nice to Cuba.

There's no sign that Chavez has become any less anti-American. And I think we have to be honest about the dangers in the world. I am for doing methodically and calmly as Ronald Reagan did, the things that will work. But I'm not for deluding myself about whether or not words and smiles are a substitute for real strategies.
History: Gingrich is an ass.






143Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 13:55








144Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 14:06
For the record I stole the idea for those posts from this Daily Kos video. I could have just posted the video but it was fairly lazily produced and I felt a transcript and some bold font would better make the point.
145Perm Dude
      ID: 4032209
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 14:07
Josh Marshall with a good post on this point.

The whole idea seems so deeply silly to me that it's hard to know how exactly to even comment on it. But I'm struck once again by the sort of psychologically arrested mentality and extreme emotional insecurity that seems at work in the minds of many foreign policy conservatives -- or more specifically, so as not to paint with too broad a brush, those of the neo-conish flavor.
146Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 14:37
there's definitely an isolationist sort of mentality going on. instead of try to communicate with our "enemies" and perhaps bring them into a fold - or at least an understanding - the preference is to keep them as far away as possible, then bomb them when the mood strikes.

btw, it's clear those Reagan photos are doctored. :o)
147Razor
      ID: 371502414
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 14:50
I don't think they are necessarily advocating isolationism. They are just pissed off that Obama is being, gasp, civil. Conservatives are just angry, unfocused people these days. Instead of seeing how Obama's strategy will play out. Cuba will be a good example since we've tried doing it the other way with absolutely not positive results. Instead, they'd prefer we just continue the George W. Bush strategy of discrediting nations from afar (e.g. "Axis of Evil") and using military force as we please. Where has that gotten us? It wasn't Obama's strategy that have gotten Iranian, Venezuelan, Cuban, and Korean relations where they are today, but Gingrich seems content to blame him for it. Gingrich perhaps thinks that Cuba will eventually relent and release prisoners? That we find some more troops and invade Iran or Korea? Who knows...
148boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 14:51
I want that fur coat...
149Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 15:11
that fur coat...

Sure looks like a real hoot they must have been having, huh?

Errr I mean... look at how cold and distant Ford's behavior toward Brezhnev was...
150Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 15:52
wanna bet ZERO shots of top-shelf vodka were shared... ;o)
151Seattle Zen
      ID: 133132011
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 16:03
Brezhnev was a MF'ing PIMP!
152Boxman
      ID: 29351011
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 16:04
There's a caption contest to be had here.
153Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 17:05
Seattle Zen - It was Ford's coat, which he gave to Brezhnev at the end of their summit after spying Brezhnev admiring it.

Seriously. Imagine the reaction if Obama had literally GIVEN THE COAT OFF HIS BACK to Chavez.

Newt might have avoided making such asinine comments on live national TV thanks to the stroke he'd have had over the weekend.
154Boldwin
      ID: 376192015
      Wed, Jul 29, 2009, 13:58
I will be amazed if the Hugo Chavez lovers around here are willing to embrace these tactics.

And if they are we're in even worse shape even earlier than I expected.
155Boldwin
      ID: 8423823
      Fri, May 14, 2010, 10:06

M-I-C-K-E-Y

Venezuela Crumbling.
Venezuela's economy is in trouble despite the country's huge oil reserves. Blackouts plague major cities. Its inflation rate is among the world's highest. Private enterprise has been so hammered, the World Bank says, that Venezuela is forced to import almost everything it needs.

Critics say a lack of investment, coupled with government ineptitude, left Venezuela without the electrical generation capacity it needs. The government blames a brutal drought.

Whatever the reason, cities such as San Cristobal go dark every day — sometimes for four hours or more, as the government uses rolling blackouts to save energy.

This is not the way it was supposed to be. Venezuela is one of the world's great energy powers. Its oil reserves are among the world's largest and its hydroelectric plants are among the most potent.

But these days, Venezuela is being left behind: The rest of Latin America is expected to grow at a healthy rate this year, according to the World Bank.

Guerra, the former Central Bank economist, says the government must reconsider its policies — and drop the statist socialist model that Chavez adopted.

"The government has to consider that the socialist point of view is not so good for the economy," Guerra says. "Chavez believes in the old-fashioned socialism. This kind of socialism is dead, definitely dead, it doesn't apply to any country in the world."
156Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, May 14, 2010, 19:14
He may believe in "old fashioned socialism," but he's an old-fashioned autocrat.
158Perm Dude
      ID: 56832185
      Fri, Sep 28, 2012, 14:33
Is the cult over?
159Tree
      ID: 12248513
      Tue, Mar 05, 2013, 17:08
Chavez reportedly has died.
160Seattle Zen
      ID: 3310162612
      Wed, Mar 06, 2013, 13:20
I watched both NBC and CBS's national newscasts last night and the level of exactness between the reports of Chavez's death was striking. Both pieces came on ten minutes into the show, both pieces used two or more of the exact same pieces of video footage, both used the clip of Hugo calling GW "a donkey". Both of them showed shots of him with: Ahmadinejad, Assad, Saddam and, of course, Castro. If you were new to the US, you would have thought that both of these pieces were created by the same person or group of people. So predictable.
163Boldwin
      ID: 26256718
      Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 19:57
Hugo Chavez once said “being rich is bad, it’s inhuman.” He also claimed “capitalism leads us straight to hell.”

He leaves his family an estate estimated at two billion dollars. His fellow top nomenclatura helped themselves to the rest of an estimated 100 billion skimmed of the top of the Venezuela oil industry.
We believe that organized bolivarian criminal groups within the Chávez administration have subtracted around $100 billion out of the nearly $1 trillion in oil income made by PDVSA since 1999.” - According to Jerry Brewer, president of Criminal Justice International Associates (CJIA)
Liberals who are among the world's leading hypocrisy detectors were effusive in their praise of Chavez in death.
164Tree
      ID: 4822717
      Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 21:06
Hugo Chavez once said “being rich is bad, it’s inhuman.” He also claimed “capitalism leads us straight to hell.”

wow. way to plagiarize, word-for-word, Malkin.

165Boldwin
      ID: 26256718
      Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 21:53
That Malkin can really turn a phrase.
166sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 22:59
Liberals who are among the world's leading hypocrisy detectors were effusive in their praise of Chavez in death.

Isnt that odd? Looking through here, I see not one piece of praise, let alone "effusive in praise", for the late Chavez. How did Ronald Reagan put it? Oh yes...

"there you go again..."
167Boldwin
      ID: 382586
      Fri, Mar 08, 2013, 07:29
If only you guys were the only libs in the world.
168sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Fri, Mar 08, 2013, 08:19
You didnt qualify your earlier statement B. You made the blanket allegation, that Libs have been effusive in their praise since his death. I merely pointed out, that on this forum which is largely populated BY Libs, no such praise has been made, at all...none. Illustrating the clear falseness of your contention.
169Boldwin
      ID: 2924816
      Fri, Mar 08, 2013, 20:14
"There is a limit beyond which material goods don’t make us happier."

Somewhere north of two billion apparently.
170sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Fri, Mar 08, 2013, 20:41
then, you are in favor of taxing at 100%, any income by one whose wealth approached that level?
171Boldwin
      ID: 2924816
      Fri, Mar 08, 2013, 22:24
Yes, I am in favor of taxing marxists 100% of their income over that which they consider too much.
172Boldwin
      ID: 31251917
      Sat, Mar 09, 2013, 20:43
He's at 6% nationally. How high does he rank here? About 50%?
173Boldwin
      ID: 31251917
      Sat, Mar 09, 2013, 21:38
When you spend $950,000 on golf weekend with Tiger Woods you may not deserve cred for feelin' the poor.
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