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Subject: Sim Racing Week 1334
Posted by: Madman
- [21020124] Sun, Mar 17, 2002, 01:04
A whole week, and we are barely even posting! Hmmmm. I admit to getting busy with a lot of other things this week, and I haven't been able to keep up with message boards. But I have a few moments now . . . So here goes...
First off, I knew 1334 was going to be a "down" week for my stables, with only 11 runners going. That turned out to be a correct prediction.
For the first time since week 1285, I didn't have a single 100+ speed runner. My main hopeful -- Jericho Velvet -- fell apart in his A3x race to finish a dismal 5th. 1292, 1299, 1306, 1313, 1320, 1327 . . . 6 weeks of 100+ speed horses. That's my new best, I think.
At any rate, get this. Exeter Bongo got claimed out of a $75,000 claim race!!! Holy cow. Good riddance. He has marginal value in 5K starters, but, honestly, you have to do better to win those races. Furthermore, he's erratic. Lastly, I was thinking about putting him into the auction this week to trade him in for a generic $1 pick to breed a super 3 year old in that stable (rotciv), since I have 876 breed points in there. There's a great 3yo combo available right now, but without the ID . . . aargh. At any rate, this is the plan, and the sale of EB for $75K makes the whole decision to go that route easier.
Update on cheapie homebred starter allowance experiment:
My best candidate, Meteor Shower, won't run again until 1348. However, Ms. Secretive has a 4K tag, and I used it in her second race. She won her maiden with a 69 speed, and clocked a 78.9 this week at the same distance and surface, good for 4th. Probably not good enough to survive. But I'll test her on turf and marathons. If she can go the distance, that 4K tag will be useful.
Update on DDS experiment:
Ballroom Blitz, my DDS experiment, is failing miserably. That looks like a waste of BP's. The idea was to match two very cheap sire/d-sires with a relatively expensive DDS -- just enough to get the Bargain bonus. Ballroom Blitz is the second horse I created like this, and she is failing.
The first, Sutter's Creek, raced again in a claim race this week, for $35K. I held off the temptation to try to claim him. He finished #2 with another 80+ speed, and was claimed by another stable. That's still not good enough to justify using an expensive DDS.
Yeah, I know. These last two ideas are kind of radical. But I wanted to play around. I know they don't have great chances to be great strategies. But, I wasn't totally convinced of that, so I'm keeping an open mind and seeing how these ideas play out. From here on out, I'll save my BP's and probably not do the expensive DDS thing. But the idea of dumping very cheap homebreds into very low claimers FTO to get them a great tag is an idea that I'm becoming attracted to.
The only other racing news of significance for my stables this week:
Zarb's Pass snuck through claimers. He finished 6th LTO, and travelled fewer than $310. He finished 2nd this time out, and I kept him. Since he's run 20 races, I believe that nets me a bonus of 4 points. Not a huge deal, but it marks the first time that I've purposely been able to take advantage of the "short travel" bonus points thing, I believe.
LOOKING AHEAD:
Things are looking good for my horses in training this week. You guys may recall that I put King North is set up in DC, where there has been a very short, very low starter tag turf sprint in about 2/3 of the weeks since 1278. Since that is his specialty, he's sharp and there's supposed to be one of those races carded again next week. I wish I knew for sure how Mike decides to put a certain type of race in a track, but knowing those sorts of things is VITAL information with the new bonus point system.
NEED SOME ADVICE
Also, amazingly, Sal At the Bell jumped back from "Little Groggy" to "Sharp" in ONE week. The original plan was to have him run next week in whatever race I could find.
HOWEVER, Missouri is on an alternating week 8 or 8.5f Stakes race for older male horses. This is the same basic Stakes race that I've used to get SAB three consecutive 2nd's in the last 3 stakes -- all in Missouri.
Question -- should I run SAB this week in Missouri????
The benefit is that it's a reasonably high stakes race where I know he likes the track and where I know he can be competitive. If he finishes top 3, I get a 5 point bonus, meaning a second is worth 15 breed points. You have to love that.
However, the downside is that I'm afraid he may be a very low "Sharp", if there is such a thing. In general, I think horses run better if you stick with their training plan. I.e., if a horse comes up sharp a week early and you wait, you almost always get a very good performance. Of course, sometimes, you lose the Sharp, too.
I dunno. Advice, anyone? I haven't had this "Sharp early" situation too often, so I'm really not sure what I should do. |
| 1 | StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 27230119
Sun, Mar 17, 2002, 01:59
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Madman I ran Hero Grub going from Little Groggy to Sharp and she did fine. I asked the same question on the board at the time and most agreed going from little groggy to sharp is no big deal. I would wait to enter MO until Wed. and then size up the competition. If it looks like an easy to moderate field then go for it, otherwise you might want to wait.
totally went to sleep this week. I was sure he was going to come up injured, but just came up little groggy. He is now going to rest for 5-6 weeks. I think he needs lots of rest.
Overall I had a terrible week and to top it off I hardly have any horses sharp this week. Ran 2 three year olds for their first races this week. Breeding was much better than what they ran. So far my best homebreds seem to be around the 120BP range.
Show Me the Green is one of my better homebreds. Bred a cheap sire with a green desert x sagace mare. So far this 3yo colt has a 1st, 4th, 3d, and 2nd and has gotten faster with each race. I'm strecthing out by 1/2f each race. He has run 71, 78, 80, 86SP at 5.5f, 5.5, 6, 6.5f respectively.
El Pollo on the other hand, Hennessy x El Gran Senor x Shirley Heights barely ran at all. Had great odds and then walked it home for a 12th and a 57SP.
Another homebred Pleasant Senor came in 3d in a 9f dirt MSW race. Liked the turf LTO so will probably revert to that next time.
Mine Sharkstanked at 8.5f turf so I need to go back to sprints with him.
Carnage Gal tool a 4th in a MSW, and Countrie Jodie took a 5h. Neither were impressive at all.
Clear Account my cryptoclearance x private account x blade 3yo homebred filly ran a 66SP over 5.5f dirt. Not to great their either.
Just a few that will be sharp this week.
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| 2 | Madman
ID: 21020124
Sun, Mar 17, 2002, 02:30
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Stl -- Yeah, probably good advice about SAB. Interesting to note that you didn't seem to have any problems with the jump. Maybe he was barely "Little Groggy" . . .
"Totally went to sleep this week" ??? I don't understand your 3rd paragraph.
Regarding your homebreds, my luck is identical -- the more they cost, the slower they run. AAAAAAAARGH.
However, I think the more expensive homebreds have the potential to improve. The cheapies peak out pretty early. Just a theory I'm working on. I haven't seen very many cheapies improve. However, great breeding means that a horse can start to explode over time. For example, I just checked out a horse (can't remember who) that had great breeding and has improved by 30 points since January at the exact same distance. I don't think cheapies do that. Cheapies will improve some -- along with all other young horses -- but they don't explode, I don't think.
This means that you should really hesitate before giving up on your expensive horses.
With that said, there are things to look for. Really bad nags tend to always come back to the barn fresh. They tend to run the same lousy speed for every single race -- turf/dirt route/sprint. If you get a lemon like that, just dump them.
That's what I'm doing with Miswaki Music, who, BTW, finished 4th in a claim race this week to just miss out on the roll-over bonus. Still got a few BP's for her performance, at least. Maybe I'll eventually get the 200+ I need! Hahaha.
BTW, I'm really raking in BP's at the moment. I got 154 last week in earnings, and logged 81 in 11 races this week.
But the real BP damage is coming in the freebies that Mike is distributing. In the three weeks since I bred "Red Summer", Madman999 has gone from almost zero BP's to 273. 79 of those were earned in the past 2 weeks. So maybe 100 have been earned. But that means Mike has given me 170ish points in 3 weeks in that stable!!!
Same thing in all my stables. That's why I've got to breed a horse in rotciv -- almost 900 points . . . geepers. And if he decides to give us all a few hundred point Easter Egg, then everyone will be buying up the sires meaning I won't be able to use my pile of BP's without paying a premium for the good sires.
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| 3 | StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 27230119
Sun, Mar 17, 2002, 02:43
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oops, must have screwed up the html tags. That was supposed to say Sixth Deputy went to sleep. Interesting that I put him on jockey select, he fell to the back, and faded from there. I think he just needs rest.
My best homebred so far has been Ally's Logic, who managed to run an 86SP as a 2yo in week 1257 and got hurt in the process. He is finally up to Little Groggy after 11 weeks. I think I will train him to race in 2 weeks.
I agree about the better breeding and improvement. A first race being bad at RTG doesn't mean a whole lot either. The key is whether they are improving or not.
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| 4 | Madman
ID: 21020124
Sun, Mar 17, 2002, 03:01
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Makes sense. I've got *another* theory that fits what happened to Sixth Deputy. It's not a great theory, since i know zilch about horse racing.
** When horses age, they lose the ability to run routes first.
That's the theory. Sixth Deputy hasn't run great at 9f since 1131. Even that wasn't great. The tank this week may have been a sign that he's starting to lose it a bit.
The jockey started him at 51%, which is right in line with his successful start percentages.
Who knows. Maybe if you manually select the same percent that the jockey does that you'll get a bonus. Hmmm. You know, I may try that this week with SAB (if I run him).
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| 5 | Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Sun, Mar 17, 2002, 03:30
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Sniff. Up in the middle of the night with a cold.
It makes sense that horses would lose their ability to run routes first. The typical picture of an aging horse is not one who loses his speed, but one who loses the ability to carry that speed over distances. I'm thinking of a Beyer quote I can't find describing a typical very cheap claiming field for older horses. "Some of these horses could run fast, and a few could run very fast indeed...but no track cards races of 4-and-a-half furlongs for 8-year-old horses.
Toral
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| 6 | Madman
ID: 21020124
Sun, Mar 17, 2002, 23:37
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Well, cool. Looks like my naive observation of the sim may have some real-life rationale.
I entered all my horses for this week already. Awesome looking set of race cards. Several same-track runners. I'm also bailing on Straight Time and a host of other runners. Going to clear some stable stall space for either claimers or auction pickups. Lightning Counting ($1,500 auction pickup) reminded me that, when the auction runs, there are frequently very usable claimers available in the auction.
Highlights for my next week of running:
Val's Desert looks to run at the same track (Spain) and will attempt to become the first horse in my barns to run 100+ speed on turf and then dirt in back to back tries. He's surface versatile, so there's a good chance, IMO. As long as I stay short -- which I am.
King North running in a very low tag turf starter sprinter. Should be locked for a top 3 finish (and, thus, bonus points since he's in DC for the third straight race).
Skin Jumping is running in a very low-tag dirt sprint in Maine -- once again, same track bonus! Wu-hoo!
Key West -- My best homebred filly -- is coming back off injury. We'll see if she can improve on her previous marks (79 as 2yo). Quite frankly, she needs a turf sprint try, a dirt 8f try, and a turf 8f try before I can give up on her. She got hurt in her only firm turf attempt, and the 8f dirt run was so long ago that it's no longer really applicable, IMO.
Straight Time will probably get lost in her 15K claimer. But I don't really care. She's too inconsistent. Plus, I get a same-track BP bonus at her most preferred distance / surface. So, I'll "risk" losing her . . .
Light Jupiter is skipping out of starter tag races again. Not sure it's wise, but there's a same track A2x race, so I'm going for a top 3, and hoping for the 5 point BP bonus.
Geez. How many "same track" runners is that? Not to mention the chance that SAB will be same track. I think I'll enter him in Missouri, and then scratch if the field looks tough. The idea being that he's a decent quality horse, and he may discourage people from dumping there horses in there as a first choice. I'd rather be in a field of 5 horses than a field of 8, even if the extra 3 horses aren't too great. This is especially true since SAB is a lead horse.
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| 7 | Madman
ID: 21020124
Sun, Mar 17, 2002, 23:43
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HOLY! SAB is scratched from 2414 in Missouri. Good grief. There are two stud horses already entered in that race.
I like the idea of what I've done the past 3 races for SAB in Missouri. I think I'll look around for a track that does something similar, and look to move him there.
Perhaps the Missouri residency is responsible. I don't think a 40K 8.5f Stakes races should pull in two prove 110+ horses this early in the week. That's absurd. That's Graded Stakes level.
At any rate, SAB won't be running same-track, and he may get the extra week of rest. Kind of depends on if I can find a nice match for him or not. This also gives me the chance to run him at 10f again to see if he can handle that distance now that he's matured a bit.
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| 8 | cab
Donor
ID: 162261320
Mon, Mar 18, 2002, 09:12
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If the opposition looks too tough i would look elsewhere Madman...Personally,i don't enter stakes horses until as late as possible..I like to see what my horse is up against...As far as bp bonuses go for running back at the same track,that is also insignificant to me...Stakes runners(and hopefully winners!) are for bragging rights..not to get breeding points(although they are a bonus)...The other 5,6,7,8, 9 or whatever horses in a stable are the ones for getting bp's imo,not stakes runners...I have often seen on the mb that people say it is ridiculous that horses travel from the US to Europe and then to Aussie etc but the fact is if you have a decent horse you chase the money with it...IRL it is no problem for horses from NZ to cross the Tasman to chase the big races(Mckinnon,Caulfield cup,Golden Slipper,Melbourne cup etc etc)and in fact go to Hong Kong and Japan as well...A few even venture over to the States(Not too often though)so i don't think it should be any different in the sim...Enter SAB where the competition is the weakest!!
This may seem a bit whacky but i have a theory about racing at certain tracks...I feel that there is a bias towards owners who are track residents at certain tracks...
In a stable review i got( a way back then!), i was told that a particular track was "very tough and highly competitive"...Now, i don't belive that that track should be any more competitive than any other track in the sim...For example, a NWX1 race at California(worth 30k) attracts the same sort of field as a NWX1 race in Wisconsin(worth 8k)...Why is the Californian race any more competitive than the Wisconsin race?...Sometimes A race at Wisconsin will attract a better class of horse than California! and yet you enter a horse in California who should be in with a real chance of getting a win and it runs like a dog!...I dunno,like i say it is just a feeling i have and i have no way of proving or disproving it...Some of the tracks i avoid(if i have a choice between two tracks!) are Deleware,Pennsylvania,Missouri,Vermont,Maine,Germany,Arizona,Minnesota,Maryland and a few others...To sort of back up what i am saying,i think i have had more than my fair share of wins at NWRC tracks where i don't neccasarily think my horses should've won...Maybe i am being paranoid because i can't get a win at those tracks!!
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| 9 | Madman
ID: 21020124
Mon, Mar 18, 2002, 14:10
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cab -- that could be a "class" factor that's built into the sim. Hard to say.
Personally, I don't view any of my horses as "Stakes" horses, so my objective is to get maximum BP's from all slots. Entering Stakes races is the easiest way to do this, if your horse can compete, since you don't suffer travel bonuses.
Furthermore, SAB is almost out of conditions, so there is no benefit to running against non-stakes competition.
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UPDATE FROM MIKE:
3/18/2002
The next couple of weeks will be busy around the sim. :) I watned to give you guys an update as to what's going in :
A handful of people need their "yearly points earned" fixed. These were people that joined the sim between resetting the points and the new year. This is not a huge deal as it doesn't affect anything directly (yet), but will take some time. Why this is important to do will be explained in a second. :)
I am not running an auction this week...yet. The new auction is near completion and, if it gets done by tomorrow, I'll put it up. If not, there will be no auction this week. If there is one, I'll post about it here.
I am running behind on adding the other new sires for the year. I will try to get some added this weekend, but they will not be completely done until early/mid April.
Points Update : I plan on adding the yearly point bonus in the middle of the week. I will be adding up to 750 points to each stable. The amount of points you receive depends on how long the stable has been in the game. You will be given 15 points per week your stable has been active through 3/16/2002, up to 750 points. I am clearing out old stables before I do this, so stables inactive for 4 months through last week will be deleted. There is a catch, however. Of these 750 points, the unused portion as of July 31st, 2002 will be removed from your stable. This only affects the bonus points, and not points you have earned. I will explain this in full detail, so please be patient before getting message board crazy. The main reason is that, since I am giving you points, I expect them to be used for immediate breeding and not hoarded.
Thanks!
--Mike
We have until July 31, 2002 to breed 750 points. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.
WHY?WHY?WHY?????
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| 10 | Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Mon, Mar 18, 2002, 14:44
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Forced breeding! Brave New World or what!
This is OK for 3 of my stables. Larot has no 2-year-olds yet; toral2 and toral6 only have a psrinter, so can take a "classic" 2-year-old (or as close as can be scrambled for in the wild melee that will be taking place). But Toral already has 2 2-year-olds and I don't want a third right now.
Mike has a fertile mind but I wonder where he comes up with all these wacky and self-defeating ideas (give 750 points to everyone, then make them worth less.) Hmmm...I wonder if he wants us to say 1)there are enough 2-year-olds already, so 2) I will use the points to breed a 3-year-old?
Toral
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| 11 | Madman
ID: 21020124
Mon, Mar 18, 2002, 18:43
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Yes, he has a very fertile mind. I really have no idea what he's thinking here. My guess is that he wanted to give us a "bonus". Why he put the July 31 deadline on it, I have no idea. Just creates trouble for himself, I think.
The problem as I see it is that there are just a limited number of horses that can be bred each week . . .
You know, the one idea that makes some sense here? He was worried about people hoarding BP's so they would breed the expensive horses with BP's rather than credits . . . furthermore, by putting inflationary pressure on prices, he's increasing the price of credit breeding.
I don't know him well enough to know if those reasons were involved in his thinking or if they were accidental by-products.
One thing that he's convinced me on -- I like the idea that those of us who haven't been around the sim for a year get fewer BP's. That means I don't get 750 BP's, but it also means those brand-spanking new CB stables don't get ANY bonus, either. :)
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| 12 | Madman
ID: 21020124
Mon, Mar 18, 2002, 18:50
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zgreat just emailed me, and he thinks the time limit is there because he wanted people to continue to purchase credits.
Which is fine as far as that goes. But then, WHY 750 BPS!!!!
On a scary note, zgreat is getting rather upset with many of the recent changes and has sent me a couple hints that he's thinking about quitting. That would be a shame.
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| 13 | Madman
ID: 21020124
Mon, Mar 18, 2002, 23:08
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I may regret this, but I just read Mike's description of this 750 point thing . . .
My questions interspersed with **
"Now the kicker : Why? Why limit the time?
For starters, I am giving away 3 times more points than I used to. In the past, I would only give away 250 points. I am giving away 750 points to allow you to breed some really nice horses. However, allowing people to merely "sit" on points defeats the purpose of them; to breed enough horses to populate 2 year old races. **Uh, yeah. This is why no one can get into the 2 year old races already carded -- because we have TOO FEW two-year olds . . . uh, yeah.** Having these extra points sitting around after this time is detrimental to the game. **say what? Am I so stupid I don't see how a few extra points hanging around after July 1 is especially detrimental?**
Another issue : there aren’t enough quality horses to use these 750 points on given the limitations put in place on breedings allowed per week. This is not true at all. I agree that it will likely cost more than 750 breeding points to get a "super horse" during this time. There will, however, be plenty of other opportunities to get quality stock. In the past, I had a horse draft that would have included far less quality 2 year olds. I am giving players 19 weeks, which will mean at least 19 Storm Cat’s, 19 Seattle Slew’s, etc. This is actually more than I used to have when I had the horse draft several years back. Remember : the flexibility is yours. You can couple these bonus points with your current points and go for a "super horse", or spend them on several other quality horses."
This has got to be the worst excuse for an argument that I've ever read. He presents an issue -- there aren't enough quality horses . . . and his rebuttal is --boiled into three words -- "no, you're wrong" Or, as he would say "that's not ture at all, you'll have plenty of other opportunities to get quality stock". LIKE WHEN??? uh... ok, now, like, I'm convinced by such an articulate expression of intellectual thought.
BTW, I thought in 19 weeks that means there are 19*3 Storm Cat's and Seattle Slew's, etc. 19*2 two year olds, 19*1 3 year olds. And he compares this to a horse draft. As if these Storm Cat's and Seattle Slew's WEREN'T GOING TO BE BRED ANYWAY!
Honestly, did someone take over Mike's brain? I think we have an imposter running the sim.
And before anyone says "don't complain, these points are free!", let me say that giving away BP's in this manner is highly detrimental to an already flawed breeding system, IMO. Free or not, it's damaging interference, and therefore fair game for criticism. Furthermore, there is reason to believe that this action is not done out of altruism, but to 1) make the game better, and 2) increase sim revenues. I obviously disagree that it will accomplish (1). It may accomplish (2), but it's the wrong way to go about (2), IMO. Simply allow BP prices to increase above the 500 cap and you've magically increased sim revenues. Or choose any one of another zillion ways to change breeding to increase revenues. . .
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| 14 | Madman
ID: 21020124
Mon, Mar 18, 2002, 23:14
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BTW, the rule regarding the 750 breed point thing is exceedingly simple -- all points used in breeding will FIRST be taken out of the free breed points you get.
If you don't spend all your breed points, whatever you didn't spend will be taken back on August 1.
If you spend more than your quantity of breed points, nothing happens to your total of Breed Points on August 1.
I don't know why it took him 5-6 examples and five zillion words to say that.
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| 15 | StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 27230119
Mon, Mar 18, 2002, 23:35
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My interpretation (based on what I have read here) is that he wants more 2 yo's to be bred. (wow, aren't I smart there?) Why does he want more 2 yo's when people are already complaining? Probably because when he starts carding 2 yo races himself, together with all the 2yo races that will be purchased, there will be a lot of races that need to be filled by horses that can only run every 6-8 weeks. Therefore Mike will consantly have to be creating new 2yo's to fill the races, something he doesn't want to do. By imposing a time limit, he will ensure a large influx of user created 2yo's of which most will reuse an existing ID. Since the Storm Cats etc. will be gone right away as usual, the Private Terms of the world will see much more action. I imagine the message boards will be full of "I can't get my sire even when I stay up all night, boo hoo hoo!!!" I do think that was a good change in the SIM. There definitely should be variety.
I really don't see this leading to "more" SIM revenues, but rather to less during this period. Who honestly is going to purchase credits for breeding during this period? And if you already have a few 2yo's in your stable from the bonus breeding, are you really going to buy credits to purchase more 2yo's right away?
As far as being "detrimental to the game" to leave the breeding points around longer than July 1st, I am not sure why that is true. One thing I could imagine is if people hoarded the pts and only used them on "royal breeds" then the desired influx of 2 yo's wouldn't be realized, and the people complaining (ie those with enough BP's) about not being able to breed with Storm Cat would increase dramatically.
The issue of there not being enough quality horses and plenty of opporunities to breed them, all I think he is saying is that there will be more people with enough points to breed quality horses, and that is why he is allowing 19 weeks for that to occur. It seems he doesn't want everyone to breed a Storm Cat, Mr. P, Nureyev, and he wants lots of 2yo ASAP, prior to him carding the 2yo races.
This is my take on it, and I could be totally wrong, but I really don't have a problem with it. My only complaint would be that I wish I had known this sooner, so I could have waited on breeding my 2yo's. As it stands now I have very few spots left for horses and will be forced to compete for some more expensive sires, etc. or else waste the bonus BP's that I get.
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| 16 | Madman
ID: 21020124
Tue, Mar 19, 2002, 00:00
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Yeah. David37373 also appaers to be in that same situation -- he bred a bunch of 2 year olds recently. Oops!!!
You could be right about there not being enough 2 year olds. I find that a bit hard to believe. I mean, there's another MUCH simpler solution to solve that problem -- CARD FEWER 2 YEAR OLD RACES!
If he has to create some 2 year olds this week, before next week's races are carded, take some off the schedule! The future schedules are only temporary anyway.
Just wait for the auction rules to be announced tomorrow. I hear they are real fun. I have no idea what they say -- I've just been warned that they are a real dousy.
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| 17 | StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 27230119
Tue, Mar 19, 2002, 00:40
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Nothing like change before I've even figured out how the first set of rules is supposed to work!
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| 18 | Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Tue, Mar 19, 2002, 08:19
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Yes, Mike's arguments are pretty weak. I still haven't a whiff of a clue how having BPs sitting around is detrimental to the game. And on the "quality" issue, I think his only reasonable response is to say "Yes, this will impinge on the ability to get the "super horse" but there are already too many of these being bred for sim realism purposes IMO. There will still be lots of opportunity for intermediate-quality horses and I would like to see more of them being bred, again for realism purposes."
Toral
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| 19 | Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Tue, Mar 19, 2002, 21:07
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I have a theoretical problem. I must come up with an answer to the question, "when do you give up on an allowance horse who can't win his second (or third, etc.) and what do you do with him then?
Toral2 has 4 of these frustrating cases, all with 1 allowance win:
Hank's Rattles(#54673)
Gold River (#27407)
Rigidly Honk (#49447)
Napkin Kicking (#293)
The choices seem to me
a) continue along the same path with them;
b) try a different distance/surface;
c) give them a rest of some weeks off; and
d) stick them in claimers.
Anything I missed?
Advice enlisted. Both as to these horses, and to the question, how do you know when to give up on a horse?
Toral
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| 20 | Madman
ID: 21020124
Tue, Mar 19, 2002, 22:28
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First, to your horses:
Hank's Rattles The former Gurupie speed record-holder does appear to have fallen on hard times. Or, maybe more precisely, has only had a few awesome races.
Quite frankly, you'll be hard pressed to find a better horse in today's environment, I think. His $15K is still useful.
I would find a track that runs extremely short sprints on the dirt, and go for the same-track bonus. With that bonus, 3rd places in allowances can still be very useful.
BEFORE you give up on him, definitely try him in a turf sprint. We have no idea how good he can be in such a race -- he won his only turf sprint attempt two years ago. It's doubtful he FASTER on turf, but I'd almost bet he's surface versatile. Might breed some new life in him, anyway. A Gurupie champion, you've got to keep this guy alive for as long as possible. Easy for me to say since I don't have to put up with 8th's or 3rd's from him. :)
Gold River Hmm. Probably as fast of a horse as you can get without being particularly useful. The same-track idea might still work. But I wouldn't put up with both Hank's Rattles and Gold River struggling in the same stable. Zgreat gave up on this horse pretty quickly. I'd try very high tag claim races. I've had good luck sneaking horses through up there. The comic counter-example of Exeter Bongo excepted.
Rigidly Honk He should be able to win A1x races. Also, you probalby can find some 3.5K starter fields for him. But he's marginal. I wouldn't run him in 5K or up tag races. There's no crime in giving up on this guy, either. If you can't get success in 3.5K starters, dump him.
Napkin Kicking OH MY! This horse has fallen apart. I'd give it up -- like I did with Rakida's Plug. Either breed him, or go for higher tag claimers. His last 5 performances are so awful, you might sneak him by. To get past Davarto's claim helper, you need to have 8 bad performances in a row . . .
When to give up on your horses: (subjective, of course)
1) When you don't like the horse. Hey, this is a game. Nothing worse than getting aggravated at your horses. Plus, I've found that by the time I've gotten aggravated with my nags, it means they don't have it.
2) If you no longer see a definable niche in the sim that the horse can exploit.
3) I try to sneak horses by in claimers if they've had 5 bad races in a row and don't otherwise have a same-track advantage or something keeping me attached to them. Frequently, you can squeeze extra life out of horses (Paul's Beats, DDay, Zarb's Pass) that can't QUITE make it in claimers. But if you place them wisely in claimers (i.e., so they won't be favorites in the races), you can keep them around awhile. Usually. And, if not, no big deal, because 90 speed horses without niches are a dime a dozen almost.
4) If your stables are over-run with similar horses. Nothing worse than having an entire stable of horses that are fighting for life.
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| 21 | cab
Donor
ID: 162261320
Tue, Mar 19, 2002, 22:50
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I have the same problem with some of my horses Toral...Raindrop mark and Paunchi's horses to name a couple...
Here are my thoughts for what they are worth...
Napkin Kicking...Has only gone beyond 6.5 f once...I would at least try him at a couple of route races(8-9f)...Although the sp at 12f wasn't great,it wasn't outlandishly bad either,imo...His only other turf race equals his best on dirt so a few more turf tries might not be out of order?...
Rigidly Honk...Is similar to the 2 i named above...At least RH has a tag though...Maybe some distance runs(12f+)..Seems inconsistant at 10f+ though but has thrown the odd good one in....Would definately win some claim races but a pretty good chance you would lose him...
Gold River...I would definately persevere with this guy some more...Lots of conditions to play with and also has that tag...His runs on the grass look very encouraging to me ...I would stick to 8f+,and if the worst comes to worst,i would consider using him for breeding...The 125bp sex change cost would be worth it imo..
Hanks rattles...Another sprinter!...I have had no luck at all with sprinters really...Sprints seem pretty tough races to win...His last race was a good one...Not sure really about him really...
Maybe you could sneak all these guys through 40k+(or 30k?)claim races...I definately think they could win their fair share of those races but do you take the risk?...What puts me off putting these type of horses in claim races is i may not find an equal or better horse to replace it with...If you are considering clearing out space for breeding,that's different kettle of fish...
Personally, i have hung on to most of my horses for far too long...But on saying that,i haven't really regretted letting any of them go...No one has got any of them going any better than when i have owned them(although i haven't checked in the last few weeks)...Nothing would peeve me off more than losing a horse and then see him winning a stakes race or posting consistant 100+sp figures or something!...
So, after all that, i say persevere for a bit longer!Unless there is another motive for putting them in claim races(clearing stable space or something)...
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| 22 | StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 27230119
Sat, Mar 23, 2002, 03:45
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Toral, I saw one of your horses in a 3yo maiden claimer at a track I'm at. I would be shocked to see it come back to you, even though it hasn't ran that well. Carson City x ?? it was it looked like very good stock. I have a Carson City horse in a stable that seems to run best at 10f dirt. You really haven't given him a fair shake on dirt I don't think and you could try stretching him out more. I know Carson City is supposed to be a sprint influence, but not in my horses case.
I finally got the gurupie stable up to 20 races and was going to dump it, but then the BP's came in. It has somewhere over 600BP's. I decided to breed a two year old, and bred a Speak x Al Nasr x Summer Squall. Summer Squall was expensive and the total cost was just over 200.
If anyone else wants to suggest a 2yo to breed I will breed it next week. It should still have around 400BP's then.
Good luck this week. I ran out of time and only got a few horses entered this week (1341)
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| 23 | Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Sat, Mar 23, 2002, 09:40
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StLCards that would be City O'Gold. I was going to use him to support the validity of Madman's Rule 1 on when to give up on a horse. I had been protecting him because I wanted to keep him but after last out I suddenly realized that I was fed up and didn't care any more whether he stayed or went. The horse is 0-for-10 after all. I suppose I should have given him a long route try, and will if I keep him.
Toral
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| 24 | Madman
ID: 21020124
Sun, Mar 24, 2002, 00:18
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Congrats, Toral! You got City O'Gold to break his maiden, and you kept him, too! Bonus points upon bonus points!
As luck would have it, my expensive homebred, Key West came back LAYOFF! UGHUGHUGH. She just got over an injury . . . Guess I have to wait this one out, too. My main stable -- Madman4 -- is really starting to get hit. I'm going to lose a ton of starter allowance tags here in 3 weeks because of Mike's rule change. I have two horses hurt. My 400+ homebred is looking like a dawg so far. My other homebred can't stay healthy . . . I can't get Private Count Sharp, so I'm forcing her this week in Ohio . . . sigh . . .
Honestly, the races today were great. But then I read the flames on the message board, and I just get ticked off. I'm trying to refrain, since I know the people who are posting don't know 1/10th of the information that I do, and they don't know the private efforts that have been undertaken to get gaz to reform.
But it's gonna be darned hard to keep my mouth shut. I've got to just ignore it.
I emailed Mike yesterday with some questions. We'll see if I get any sort of response.
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| 25 | StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 27230119
Sun, Mar 24, 2002, 01:01
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I stay clear of the message boards as much as possible. Went there and did see something about Gaz and auctions etc. In a nutshell what is up with starter allowances and the auction?
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| 26 | Madman
ID: 21020124
Sun, Mar 24, 2002, 01:50
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There is nothing really up with auctions. Some people have thrown that in there for no reason. Mike is working on a new auction system, maybe that's the connection.
Regarding gaz:
1) Marre (from Sweden) discovered the horse April Parade(gb). Check out his line in the SSS. It was clear someone abused the horse to sneak him through a low-tag claim to do a stable transfer.
2) In the Marre thread, I added that it was suspicious that an owner -- I left the owner UNSPECIFIED -- who had a history of stable transfers had just "happened" to enter two horses in the same track. Furthermore, one of those horses was entered 10 minutes prior to April Parade. The other horse was entered 2 minutes after -- and was a purposeful change.
A few other people caught on to who I was talking about and they, too, posted that they saw the same thing. They did NOT mention gaz's name.
3) Gaz started up a thread in which he stated "I am a user of the run horses bad and then claim them tactic.
While do consider it border line cheating, there has never been a rule on it and being that others get a chance to claim the horses I did not have a problem with the tactic.
having said that if others in the sim consider it cheating I will stop this practic (which I have not done much in the last 6 months) and play good with the rest of the kinds.
I accualy thought everone knew I was a Tag trader until I read marres post."
Later, he also stated (in that same thread):
"There is one I missed in race 0103 Eminent pump, it is 99-1 someone else out claimed me on it :-)
I would go back it as April Shower will not win that race, it is Needs rest."
Given that April PARADE won his race, I think Gaz was either lying through his teeth here, or maybe just drunk.
4) Gaz announces that he's going to shut down ASR with a thread "LOL, say goodbye to ASR". Basically, he is pleading for his ego to be stroked, which many people have obliged him with. It seems you can buy people's loyalty by sponsoring a few races every so often.
5) After this, Dante's Inferno was let loose, if you know what I mean. People defending gaz, people attacking him. People attacking those who attacked gaz, people attacking those who attacked those who attacked gaz, etc., etc. Idiocy.
6) In the middle of this, gaz posted to the original Marre thread claiming that no cheating was done.
I asked him in that thread the fundamental question that he has yet to answer:
gaz -- if what you did was NOT cheating, then is there anything that owners could do in the sim that IS cheating short of hacking into the system and creating your own superhorse.
I followed that up by adding:
Can I use more than one account? How do I get another stable?
Yes, I allow people to play using multiple accounts. I would, however, appreciate it if you only played new accounts because you want to play more, not because you're trying to "find" a star horse.
Also, Mike has specifically requested that people do NOT open more than 1 new stable per week.
---------------------------------------
Some notes that I'm not publishing on the main boards:
* Gaz has admitted to opening more than 30 transfer stables in a few months time.
* Fletch has informed both myself and zgreat that gaz has engaged and has continued to engage in stable transfer behavior,
* gaz claimed to myself and zgreat several months ago (privately) that he had STOPPED the behavior. This after we had a similar flare up before.
* for many weeks, zgreat has been trying to get gaz to straighten up. He's been doing this in private. Gaz refused to admit he was still transferring horses, let alone promise to quit.
I can provide a list of at least 20 horses that I know of that gaz has transferred or tried to transfer. I suspect the actual number is more than 50 -- just within the last year. It could be as high as 100 horses (he had 8 official stables, and a few other backup stables, almost all filled with transfer horses). This is how gaz won his own ASR contest -- transferring in unreal starter horses.
All of the posts that are to the effect "here is my stable, sim police, am I breaking the rules" are so incredibly ignorant of the situation, it makes me sick. Here is a guy with 8 stables full of horses that were likely transfers. He's been doing this for month after month after month.
The very idea that this is a one-time "how do you really know he didn't get lucky?" is comical. If it was just SSHR, I might live with it better. But I'm seeing this sort of idiocy in the younger generations all over the place right now.
And, yes, the complete evidence against gaz has NOT been posted on the boards. But you would think that people would look at the available facts at the very least before making themselves look like fools.
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| 27 | Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Sun, Mar 24, 2002, 11:24
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Ya, Madman. There are 2 repeated themes in the Gaz (and CB) discussion that repel me. 1. Everybody should just run their own stables and not concern themselves with what goes on in the sim as a whole (otherise, you are a "whiner", do not realize this is "just a game" etc.) 2. Person X does something good (i.e., gives me money in contests, sponsors races) so everything he does is all right. These are poisonous-weed attitudes and we need, as Barney Fife, would say, to NIP THEM IN THE BUD. Nip, nip nip.
Toral
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| 28 | StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 27230119
Sun, Mar 24, 2002, 13:24
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Thanks for the update Madman. I agree that the stable transfer thing is indeed "cheating" as is/was the claim bandit thing. I have seen the attitude exhibited by Gaz many times IRL. (The, "you can't live without me attitude because I'm too important"). Amazing how little those people are missed when they are gone. I don't fare well in flame wars, so I find it best to stay out of them, don't need to raise my blood pressure any. I do find it incredulous that so many people can stick up for someone that is cleary taking advantage of the integrity of the sim. They obviously don't think it effects them.
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