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Subject: Today 's "Japan out, Korea 's next" action - 06/18
Posted by: mIST
- [36022116] Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 04:29
I would have never bet on Turkey, maybe Japan had run out of fuel, that's what could happen to South Korea too...at last, this is what I hope :) |
| 1 | JCS
ID: 42516158
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 07:36
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uh oh.... one yellow card, then 2 fouls by the italians on the same action, and the korean misses the penalty... nice beginning...
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| 2 | Samuli
ID: 3104968
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 07:50
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Gooooooooolllll!!!
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| 3 | JCS
ID: 42516158
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 09:16
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amazing...
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| 4 | Coolio
ID: 4735618
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 09:19
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With 2 minutes left, the iron curtain falls. beginning of the end for the Squadra?
........
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| 5 | JCS
ID: 42516158
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 09:40
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totti out... hehe.. i know some who are mad right now...
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| 6 | Samuli
ID: 3104968
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 09:50
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Howabout some made-up off-side again? Pffffftt.....
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| 7 | Coolio
ID: 4735618
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 09:55
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It's over. Italia goes home.
And no referee to blame this time.
They can dive in the plane back now.
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| 8 | JCS
ID: 42516158
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 10:01
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Italia is.... OUT!
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| 9 | Samuli
ID: 3104968
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 10:07
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Is it... REALLY? What a cunning observation right there! Bring me Trapattoni's head, I'll make an ashtray out of it.
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| 10 | Whitey
Sustainer
ID: 47130129
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 10:10
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I haven't gotten to see any of South Korea's games...are they really a good team or will they be getting destroyed in their next match?
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| 11 | Twarpy
Leader
ID: 23359202
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 10:11
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Samuli, Italy doesnt dive do they?
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| 12 | walk
Leader
ID: 28302616
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 10:11
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S. Korea seemed to have a fitness advantage, IMO. They have few(er) club players, and they are used to that heat. You could see the Italians playing slower on defense at the end and in extra time. Second yellow resulting in Totti's (?) red card ejection was way bogus, too. Korea had numerous opportunities to win in the extra time, and I was pulling for kicks, but Italy could not hold them off.
Game winner was by the same dude, Ahn, who tied the U.S. game in the waning minutes, too. Amazing result.
- walk
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| 13 | Samuli
ID: 3104968
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 10:13
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#11: WTF you on about?
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| 14 | mIST
ID: 36022116
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 10:15
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Blatter, you son of a bitch, I hope you're happy now.
Football's just dead, R.I.P.
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| 15 | Samuli
ID: 3104968
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 10:23
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Ahhh, I remember now... you are the Germany-fan who got all upset when I suggested that Jancker probably isn't quite that easy to tackle down... It all makes sense now. So, there you go, let it all out, There's plenty of room for the kind of remarks made in post 11. Razor sharp mind in action I reckon.
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| 16 | IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 12:23
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no refs to blame??
ok, maybe it was the first soccer game you watched in your entire life.
if you want to talk about soccer it's ok, but if you want to talk about bullsh!t i really am not interested. totti was clearly fouled, and it's said by a person who hate totti 100%.
And what about tommasi's regular goal??
And what about the fact that that fat bastard didn't whistle a foul for us in the last 30 minutes, while whistling everithing happened around our penalty area??
no refs to blame??
.......did you see collina before?? he is clearly 4 categories behind the ecuador's sh!t.
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| 17 | Whitey
Sustainer
ID: 47130129
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 12:40
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I wouldn't doubt that certain referees could be paid off to sway a match one way. In the case of Totti, the referee has to take into consideration the ramifications of that call he made. By taking a player away after issuing a second yellow to him, the refree put Italia at a severe disadvantage at a crucial part of the game.
It would be like an NBa ref calling a second technical on Shaq in overtime of a playoff game. It just doesn't happen...
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| 18 | coldwater coyotes
Leader
ID: 154401517
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 12:46
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It is disappointing to see Italy out of the cup it clearly dilutes the quality of the competition....South Korea's players are only second or third division players. Furthermore this game was too important to have such a poor ref in charge.
Nevertheless I feel that the Italians continual use of diving during the game was the cause of the bad Totti decision.
I am off to Japan today to see mighty England dismantle the Brazilians on Friday.
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| 19 | Coolio
ID: 4735618
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 13:45
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Lazio, and what about that open goal Vieri misses to win the game?
Relax , you are very nervous.
As far as the first game I watch in my life, who knows? Maybe you are right, maybe not.
You started complaining about the referree 3 days before the game!!! How can you be neutral in this?
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| 20 | IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 15:25
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i started before because it was clear that a 32 years old, unexperienced, fat, ecuadorian, ref would have ruined the game. It was so clear to me and it was strange, because all other refs in this round have been experienced and proven. But the one who would have whistled the hottest game was the worst one......doesn't this let you think?? the fact i told you before should give you the idea of my coherence. why don't put in our game a better ref, expecially after that in the 2 games before refs didn't validate 4 italy's legit scores??
I'm too nervous? well, soccer matters a lot for me, i live of that (in the total mean of it, since my work is in soccer's world...) and i had a 350 euros on that game......
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| 21 | Coolio
ID: 4735618
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 15:30
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You did not answer the Vieri part. Frankly, who do you blame for that?
I'm sorry for the 350 euros, but it is hard to remain objective for a team you love.
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| 22 | IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 15:44
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i know, but if i loose a game on the field, ok, you've played better than me, or i've played badly anyway. The technical factor is universal, and if we played a well whistled game and loose i would have admitted it. But c'mon, can you say that it has been a fair world cup for italy??
5 regular goals not allowed in 3 games, invented ejection and yellow cards, outsides called randomly.......and hey, i forgot before, did you see the hand touch by the korean in the second half?? wasn't it a clear penalty??
coolio, you can't blame us for missing shots, when the game isn't clear equaling judged. When you've your midfield booked in the first half your game is badly conditioned. Than, totti first yellow was for an hand touch on the face of a korean, but then did you see the reaction elbowing of the already booked korean on del piero??
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| 23 | leggestand
ID: 501029817
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 16:05
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Although Italy has been the victim of bad calls, many other teams have also. I would say only two teams have not been effected by bad calls on their teams - Brazil and South Korea. The point of Italy having bad calls in the 1st round is a moo point. They found a way to advance even though there were some bad calls. The Italians did NOT find a way to advance today - despite the referee. So, one goal gets called back for the Italians today, how many chances did they have? Enough to have the game all but over by the 70th minute. The longer you keep a team in the game, the easier it is for them to win. Korea knew they were not out being only down 1-0, and attacked like they wanted to win. The Italians looked like they were happy with the one goal, and would shut the Koreans out. Dominate the Koreans and score 3 goals, they will never come back (See England v Denmark).
I agree, Totti should not have gotten a red. I also dont think this game should have ever been in question as the Italians should of applied more and more pressure on the Koreans after the first goal, and ended the game so that the Koreans could score a goal in the 88th minute like they did, but only to make the score 3-1 Italy's way.
The bottom line is that ref's can screw up plays and moments by making a bad call, but they cannot screw up the entire game. If Vieri puts the ball in the back of the net in the 89th minute, as he would do 9 out of 10 times, Italy wins in regulation. It would be impossible for the ref to have made bad calls in overtime.
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| 24 | IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 16:08
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Italy gave up a penalty kick in the fourth minute Tuesday. Goalie Gianluigi Buffon saved it, but the Italians' bad luck didn't end there.
Numerous yellow cards followed, many for tussling that many referees would not have punished as strongly. Then, in the 111th minute, midfielder Damiano Tommasi put the ball in, but was called offside.
''I was perplexed by the call,'' Tomassi said.
Perhaps for good reason. Television replays suggested Tommasi was onside when the ball was passed to him.
Goalie Buffon was in despair.
''It was the last act of a run that we conducted well, suffering, giving all we had, sweating blood,'' he said. ''I think that again we lost because of certain episodes that I saw in a different way.''
In overtime, key playmaker Francesco Totti fell in the penalty area, and Moreno reached for the yellow, believing Totti dived. But the ref apparently forgot when making that decision that Totti received a yellow earlier and therefore had to be sent off.
It was only on the prompting of the Korean players that he pulled out the red.
''We have to turn the page, think about our vacations, and forget about it all,'' Totti said. ''Unfortunately, not because of us, but because of the refs.''
In Italy's second first-round game, a 2-1 loss to Croatia, they had two goals controversially disallowed. The first came when striker Christian Vieri headed one in only to be ruled offside -- a call that appeared incorrect on replays.
The second disallowed goal in that match came three minutes into injury time, with Italy trailing 2-1. Defender Marco Materazzi sent a long pass from beyond midfield. The ball bounced into attacker Filippo Inzaghi's path, and then hopped over his foot into the goal.
The officials ruled Inzaghi pulled down a defender -- again a highly debatable call.
In the team's last group match against Mexico, Inzaghi put another one in the net only to have it rejected as offside again, a ruling the team later denounced. Then, Vincenzo Montella scored, but was wrongly ruled offside again.
''We have to take a close look at what happened in this World Cup,'' striker Alessandro Del Piero said. ''I'm not one who complains about the refs. I don't want to do it now. But looking at the whole match, it bears a close look.''
Italian soccer federation officials will be taking a closer look once they get back to Italy.
''It's upsetting to leave so early,'' said soccer federation president Franco Carraro. ''In Italy, after a break and in the right place, we'll examine this.''
However, he indicated that Italy would not try to appeal, an act that would not change the result.
''We're out of the World Cup and nothing's going to change that,'' he said.
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| 25 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 22347210
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 16:26
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Sorry about the loss, Lazio. However, when in a Reuters poll only 14% blamed the players for the loss, you really have to wonder if this isn't just a lot of hot air. I disagree with leggestand that a ref cannot screw up an entire game, but in this particular case I'd say the Italians did it themselves. Like their game against Nigeria the US (a game I was lucky enough to be at in Foxboro) the Italians were stunned that the Koreans were keeping up with them, and fell apart when the calls didn't go their way. They needed Baggio as much this year as then, to help pull their team together.
From above: Moreno reached for the yellow, believing Totti dived. But the ref apparently forgot when making that decision that Totti received a yellow earlier and therefore had to be sent off.. Meaning what, exactly? That no penalty should have been called because it meant expulsion? A guy with a yellow card shouldn't be screwing around like that anyway. At least the word will go out that taking dives has a penalty. Diving is the worst part of soccer.
BTW, I thought the linesmen were terrible in this game, consistently making bad calls on offsides. Why couldn't they have gotten the linesmen from the Ireland/Spain game? That was well-called by the linesmen, even very close offsides penalties were called correctly.
pd
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| 26 | leggestand
ID: 501029817
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 16:35
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I still don't understand how a ref can screw up an entire game? He cannot be wrong for 90 minutes - let alone 45 minutes. He can miss a goal, or give a goal that should/should not have counted. If a team cannot overcome a one goal difference, then they don't deserve to be there. South Korea showed it can overcome being a goal down by working hard and scrapping for everything. Having played socer for 19 years, I have had many coaches. One thing that more than one coach said is luck is a by-product of hard work. Breaks will go your way when you work hard because in soccer crazy things happen. I would say that the harder working team in soccer wins the game 75-90% of the time. I believe that Korea worked harder than Italy today.
Well, Permdude already said the ref didnt screw up this whole game. Is there any game in particular you are thinking about where a ref completely screwed a game up? I am just wondering, not disagreeing - for the moment :)
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| 27 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 22347210
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 16:38
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Anytime you have a game where one goal can be the difference, it just takes one call that brings about a score for the ref to make a difference.
In this game, though, I think the Italians brought it upon themselves. They should have overcome the ref's calls; on paper, they are a better team, and didn't rise to their own level.
pd
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| 28 | IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 16:44
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leggestand, he can by booking a lot of your players, so that they have to play crefully, without making any foul. He can by calling costantly invented outsides so that you can't play your game, made of verticalization.
He can by not allowing a your LEGIT golden goal.
He can by not whistling a single foul for you in the last 30 minutes, so that korean should ever came with number superiority in your half court.
He can by being always far from the action, having to decide on crucial calls from 37 meters of distance. It's proven by television that on the totti's ejection he was more than 35 meters far from the action, and it wasn,t a counterattack. We screwed also by ourselves, but if they gave us that score by tommasi would you have said that we didn't deserve the victory??
no, we fully deserved, since buffon, after the penalty, didn't touch the ball anymore, so the ref clearly ruined the game.
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| 29 | walk
Leader
ID: 28302616
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 16:46
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Lazio, your passion for Italy on the soccer boards is admirable. I watched 70 of the 116 minutes, and would agree that the officiating was poor and potentially biased. However, I do think that the Italians still had the game in their hands on more than one occasion, and failed to convert (holding the lead in the 88th minute; Vieri's 2 opportunities in golden goal time). I believe the Koreans were not as undisciplined as we expected, and, combined with their tenacity and stamina, were just a team of (lucky) destiny today. A tough loss to take.
- walk
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| 30 | IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 16:49
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We won the game, with a legit tommasi's score at the 5th minute of the first extra time, that's all.
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| 31 | leggestand
ID: 501029817
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 17:06
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Senegal could of said they tied Sweden off a legit goal in the first half that was called offsides - and clearly wasn't. Instead they scrapped there way back and found a way to win despite having a blown call disallow a goal.
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| 32 | kev
ID: 11438306
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 17:19
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Lazio, as I have said before, your passion for Italian soccer has made your debates harder for others to accept. Not every goal Italy scored that was called back was a bad call. Controversial? Yes. But lets remember, the 100's of replays we are seeing, the ref's dont see. In every sport, refereeing costs teams. In the NBA Baron Davis hit a game winning 3 that was called off on a horrid call. Charlotte still won the game. Reggie Miller hit a 3 pointer at the buzzer in the deciding game 5 vs NJ, that shouldnt have counted. NJ still came out, and won the game in double OT. Excuses only get you so far- your play is the deciding factor. The teams that have moved on, have gotten past the bad calls.
How do you think Mexico felt in their game where a hand ball was used by a US defender in the penalty area, and wasnt called, after the Mexicans dominated most of the game, and still lost? Every team has faced horrible officiating in this World Cup... except, like above mentioned, probably Brazil, South Korea, and even the US to some extent.
So Mexico gets robbed in a game they should have one, and then Italy doesnt win a game they should of one.
I hate to say it, but after the ugliest thing I have ever seen in any sporting event, where both teams basically quit playing, while the game was still going, they both got what they deserved.
Italy didnt do enough to win. Complain all you want about the ref's. Every sport has teams that get bad calls. The teams that want it the most, still win.
I question in this World Cup, that Italy wanted it. It seemed like they didnt turn up their game until they felt they had to.
Always a recipe for disaster
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| 33 | IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 17:57
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what are you talking about?? ALL and i say ALL the goals that were not allowed were L-E-G-I-T goals. They were all bad calls, as showed by the television. As i told you we screwed it by ourselves too, but you can't blame us for our kind of play. We didn't have nesta and cannavaro and we needed to protect iuliano and panucci who weren't giving us confidence. We didn't allow korea to make a single shot in the regular time, while korea's goalkeeper made some key saves. We even deserved a penalty for an hand's touch, we made a valid goal, and played nicely even if in 10 against 11.....I can't blame the players today, because simply it wasn't soccer.
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| 34 | JCS
ID: 42516158
Wed, Jun 19, 2002, 07:14
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ALL and i say ALL the goals that were not allowed were L-E-G-I-T goals.
I can't let this one pass. Sorry. It looks like maybe they don't have the same replays in Italy than in the rest of the world.
You want to see controversial calls? Watch France-Uruguay or USA-Mexico again. But nobody is crying about it. AT least not as loud as the Italians. It's the only team which won't accept it lost because of their play.
Italy gave up a penalty kick in the fourth minute Tuesday. Goalie Gianluigi Buffon saved it, but the Italians' bad luck didn't end there.
Bad luck ?!? Come on! There was TWO fouls on the same action. The Italians played a quite dirty game and dived all the time. You think they've been booked too much? A lot of people tend to think the opposite.
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| 35 | IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621
Wed, Jun 19, 2002, 09:52
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ok jcs, tell me which one of our goals wasn't legit. I want facts, not words.
You say something? prove it.
Italy - korea: Tommasi's golden goal: clearly regular
Italy - Mexico: inzaghi's goal, more than regular; montella's goal regular, even if for inches
Italy - Croatia: Vieri's goal, regular by more than 1 and half meter; materazzi's last minute equalizer, regular since inzaghi wasn't outside, and didn't touch the ball.
so, which one of this goals wasn't regular??
oh, and the article wasn't from me, but from espn, so i don't really think it should be pro-us.....
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| 36 | El Tel
ID: 56423193
Wed, Jun 19, 2002, 10:04
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The Italians have cost me my bets,my sweeps and my fantasy teams.Italian clubs' failure in Europe has been mirrored by the national team.I would look beyond the refereeing to:
-conservative team selection and formation
-negative tactics with the substitutions designed to cede the ball and protect 1-0
-in Panucci and the midfield,too many journeymen players inadequate at this level
The question we ask is why does a nation with such style and passion for soccer accept this negativity?
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| 37 | John Budge
Donor
ID: 29141112
Wed, Jun 19, 2002, 11:26
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Hey Lazio,
Italy lost. Get over it. It seems like you dig up a new excuse every day. It wasn't meant to be, bro. Go talk on your cell.
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| 38 | Motley Crue
Donor
ID: 53857
Wed, Jun 19, 2002, 11:27
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I have never heard so much complaining after a game. The sense of entitlement displayed by fans of eliminated powerhouse teams (Italy, Argentina) is incomprehensible to me. Your team did not play well enough to win the game. They'll have another chance in 2006. Maybe, just maybe, your expectations were a little too high. Just calm down, breathe deeply, and get ready to root for your team in their next competition. The rest of us will be watching one of the most exciting World Cups of all time.
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| 39 | Spyce
ID: 81144414
Wed, Jun 19, 2002, 14:02
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In 1998 Canada finished 4th in men's hockey at the Olympics - the first time NHL players attended (so there were no legitimate excuses). Hockey is one of the few, if not only, things Canada claims to be the best in the world at. We had a sense of entitlement when it came to hockey - it is much diminished now. The Olympics was the largest profile of many indicators that we were no longer the world's undisputed hockey power (lack of success at recent world Junior championships, lack of Canadian players in the Top 10 in scoring ...). The 1998 Olympic loss spurred 4 years of soul-serching for Hockey Canada and the results are positive - there is now a move towards favouring skill more and size less, a recognition that finesse players can have the kind of 'heart' formally attributed only to less skilled grinders, realization that to win you have to intimidate with speed and offensive pressure rather than with size and brute force - Canada won gold in Salt Lake by playing a more European style - it was the end result of a string of painfully embarrassing losses and the realization that we didn't know everything about hockey, we had a lot to learn from the Europeans.
It appears to me that the Italian national soccer program is much like the Canadian national hockey program of 4 years ago - so much talent, but not much in the way of results - why shut it down at 1-0, why sub out a dangerous Del Piero for a more defensive minded player especially when you're missing your top defenders, especially if you don't have confidence in the referee, especially after watching Spain do the exact same thing against Ireland (in the second half) and have to go to a shoot-out - its maddening
I realize this doesn't address the issue of poor referring but Italy is so superior to Korea in talent that they should be able to beat them regardless of biased referring, regardless of playing them on home soil - i understand Italy is angry, but they should also be embarrassed.
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| 40 | IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621
Wed, Jun 19, 2002, 19:40
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spyce your post is simply perfect.
A thing i want to tell you: soccer isn't as simple as other sports. You can have the world all stars in your team, but for an episode you can even loose to a pity team. Episodes are everything in soccer, and there are times they happens in a decisive moment, and that influence all your game, or badly, all a competition as the world cup. I accept the field's decision, but i can't accept to play better, or at least in the same way of my opponents, scoring 5 valid goals and being denied of them regularly. The opinion of everyone on italy would have been different if we would have been credited of at least a goal against croatia, since we would have had a fully rested team in the next round playing an ambiental factor free game against the u.s.a. . As you can see, an episode should easily influence an entire campaign.
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