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Subject: turkey - senegal, look to the ref.....
Posted by: IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
- [221441621] Thu, Jun 20, 2002, 18:03
i'm quite sure something will happen.....dunno what, it's just a feeling, and i hope to be wrong as i route for senegal and usa now.
and an egyptian is been designed for the korea's game.....they clearly don't deserve a top ref....
isn't it strange??
anyway, I HOPE TO BE WRONG, because if another ref will influence a game, well, it should turn the world cup into a complete farse......let's go senegal and usa!!! |
| 1 | Micheal
ID: 567421419
Thu, Jun 20, 2002, 18:14
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IR
I'm not picking on you. Your English is much better than my Italian:
as I root for senegal
an egyptian has been assigned to the korea game
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| 2 | IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621
Thu, Jun 20, 2002, 18:21
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ok, i route....but what's wrong with "has been assigned"??
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| 3 | Micheal
ID: 567421419
Thu, Jun 20, 2002, 18:48
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When you "design", you are creating or planning out something such as the design for a building.
When you assign, you assign someone a task or a place to be, such as an official to a soccer game.
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| 4 | IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621
Thu, Jun 20, 2002, 18:53
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ok, i was "corrupted" by an italian word..... we intend design as the act of a designer (it's what you intend) and of a "designator", who is the commissione of the ref in serie A, and decide where to send refs every sunday......thanks for the corrections, i'm writing here for the main goal to improve my english, and this is really what i need!!
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| 5 | Micheal
ID: 567421419
Thu, Jun 20, 2002, 20:57
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IR
I think the english word you are looking for is "designate(d)"
To select and set aside for a duty, an office, or a purpose.
"The designated official for the Korea game is Egyptian"
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| 6 | Coolio
ID: 9202412
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 00:01
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Lazio, I promised earlier that i wouldn't speak anymore about the italian whining, however, for the last time, I CAN'T LET YOU MAKE A RACIST STATEMENT ABOUT A REFEREEE'S NATIONALITY.
What you are doing is pure, plain racism.
You talked earlier about monkeys and elephants , and now you make presumptions according to a referee's nationality.
As I said earlier, all the major championships have complaints about their referees. In France, England, Spain, Germany, club owners are always complainig about the refs. Nationality does not matter, will you understand this yes or no? Making and assumption on someone's ability depending on his birthplace is pure and plain racism.
I'm morrocan and as I stated, Belqola (who passed away last week) was the ref for the WC finals in 98 and was just perfect. Maybe a Collina or someone else would not have done as well that day.
Please, just please, stop this kind of talk. It's not objective, it's not fair, it's racism. It's like saying a white NBA ref can't be good because the majority of the players are black, or vice versa, that a black ref can't be good in the NHL. What do you know about this Egyptian referee that allows you to make any assumptions before a game? Just his nationality?
I'm really angry with such statements. Senegal beat France, why should a Senegalese referee be less talented than the players???
Please Lazio, enough of that crap, please.
This is very insulting.
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| 7 | Twarpy
Leader
ID: 23359202
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 00:10
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I have to echo Coolio on this. I've tried to keep quiet, but enough is enough,. It's not just Lazio but also Samuli and others too. I understand your passion for Italy, but you have to know when to call it quits. Yes some calls went against you, and yes they were wrong on some of the plays, but the way you guys hype Italy as such a great team their is no reason they should've lost that game if they were that good.
In terms of these conspiracies, I think it's ridiculous that everyone thinks that FIFA or anyone else would want Italy out of the world cup. As much as everyone would hate to admit it the world cup is lacking without the French, Argentinian, Portugese, and now Italian teams left. These teams bring something to the game that honestly Turkey, Senegal (Just examples) don't.
It's actually in FIFA's best interest that the nations above stay in terms of viewing audiences, and merchandising etc.
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| 8 | Samuli
ID: 3104968
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 06:51
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Now what are you crying about? Still bitter because somebody doesn't like the way Germany plays? Oh I understand. For your and everybody else's information I can assure you that as long as people keep posting things like "Oh shut up you girly Italians, you just suck, donn't blame the refs, bla bla bla", there will be people trying to explain their point of view. What do you expect, us to just sit back and watch everybody have their best shot at Italian football and Italians in general? Yea I'm no Italian but I'm not going to watch this nonsense silently... Besides, I think I have made some valid points so far, unlike you ("Samuli, Italians don't dive do they?"... Yea right, intelligent discussion right there, mate...), so perhaps you really should keep quiet instead of merely trying.
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| 9 | Urmas
ID: 42737288
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 08:13
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Samuli, I think now they (at least Coolio) are crying about some racist remarks IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO and some of his fellow Italians and Italy supporters keep on making. Quite rightly so, if you ask me.
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| 10 | Coolio
ID: 4735618
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 08:22
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Thank you for making that straight Urmas.
Let's not spoil this thread with the whining discussion, I'm speaking about something totally different and much worse.
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| 11 | Samuli
ID: 3104968
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 08:24
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...yet my name is specifically mentioned in post #7 even though I have made no such remarks. My post wasn't targeted for Coolio at all.
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| 12 | Samuli
ID: 3104968
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 08:25
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Yes I can see that Coolio, and I'm not interfering with your concerns on this.
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| 13 | IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 10:15
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coolio, now there are 2 possibilities:
you can't understand what i say
you don't want to understand.
let me know: do you think I have doubt on an egyptian ref because of his racial provenience??
do you think i consider an african person in some way inferior to me??
do you think i would be so unkind to write any kind of discriminant toughts here??
Damn, maybe my english wasn't so good expressing my toughts, and it caused a misunderstanding.
The egyptian ref is a man like everyone of us, and maybe he's far better than me too, but my concerns are EXCLUSIVELY about:
1) his lack of abitude on whistling huge games.
2) the fact that he's almost unknown, that is a thing that doesn't give the clearence a similiar game needs
3) the fact that for a game with the ambiental conditions like there will be, it's ABSOLUTELY needed a ref with a huge personality, including a well known international fame, who you are sure will not be conditioned by the crowd.
4) the fact that korea, even if played some huge games hasn't had a "stud" ref for the whole tounament, while they've had all young, semi unknown, unexperienced ones, who, and it's normal, are easier at being influenced by the ambiental facts.
IS IT ANY KIND OF RACISM??
i'm not racist, but i try to be objective. I've my ideas on refs, which are not based on racial tiughts, so please, before condamning a guy saying he's racist switch on your brain, and assure you know his toughts and the real meaning of the word racism.....
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| 14 | Coolio
ID: 4735618
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 10:44
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LAZIO, I don't have to turn on my brain to try to understand what you are saying, it is very clear and the message you are trying to send is even clearer. Your past quotes speak for themselves and I am not going to remind them to everyone.
Now, not only are you trying to get out of the stupid things you say by becoming agressive, but I am really starting to think that you don't know much about football either. You just keep on throwing information which is false to try to make your case.
Gamal El-Ghandour is almost unknown and is not used to referee huge games??? So listen to this "Mr. I know football better than anyone".
1)On Feb. 9th 2002, he was the referee of a very small match with no importance: The African Nations Cup in Bamako between Cameroon and Senegal in front off 80.000 People.
2)He was the first african referee in the European nations Cup (Spain/Norway and Czech Rep./Denmark in Euro 2000)
3)He was the first african referee to participate in European cups
4)He ran Brazil/Costa Rica and Spain/Paraguay in WC 2002
5) He ran France/South Korea and France/Brazil in FIFA Confederation Cup 2001.
6) Participated in World Cup 1998
He got the highest evaluation in 1st round (90%).
Ran 2 matches 1st round (Chile/Austria 1/1 & USA/Yugoslavia 0/1)
Ran Brazil/Denmark match (3/2) in Quaterfinal
Is this enough Lazio or you want me to continue? My point is made. I really wonder how you are going to try to get out of this one.
PS: I am sure you would have really preferred if the ref in today's game between the US and Germany who blew the call had not been Scotish but "something" else.
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| 15 | IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 12:01
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ok, except for the senegal - cameroonn game, which i watched on tv, and enjoyed as it was a very good game between 2 great teams, it doesn't seem he has whistled a game with the same implications this one has. If you go looking to refs carreers you'll find that even really mediocre refs have had their presence to world cups and in other great tournaments, but you know why??
i tell you: refs aren't choosen by a ranking, or something based on their skills, they're simply choosen in order to have the world's largest rappresentation in the world cup, even if they came from Malaysia (nothing against malaysia, it's the first country without soccer's experience that comes me to mind.....), kurdistan, belize, fiji islands or groenland.
Do you know why this happens??
because this countries have a rappresentant in the fifa's commission, and their rappresentant will have a vote each in the election of fifa's commissioner.......oh, well, but i don't know anything about soccer.....i'm just a crying italian.....and you're such a god who deserve to judge us.....
i'm not trying to get out of something (oh, and i respected even if didn't agree with all your post, without calling the things you said stupid.....), as i'm sure that i NEVER have intentionally said something racist, for the only matte i'm not racist......
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| 16 | IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 20:08
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oh, i forgot to say that i really hope this ref will have a great game, for soccer's best. really.
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| 17 | IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621
Sat, Jun 22, 2002, 05:48
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did you see the game??
linesman from uganda and trinidad and tobago?!?!?!?
as happened in the previous korea's game it turned into a shaming joke.
2 valid goals disallowed to spain, and one would have been the golden goal, and one outside totally invented whistled in the middle of the 2nd extra time, with a spanish all alone in front of the korean's gk......now, is it possible that you don't see it?? they're really turning the greatest event in the world into a complete farse.
Well, i've to say that korea is a very good looking team, as they play a nice soccer, but in 2 games against italy and spain their opponents have been denied of legit scores and great scoring opportunities by refs. And don't forget the ejections in the game against portugal that influenced the entire game.....they're good, very good, but they're being taken ahead by refs, and it's a matter of facts, not an opinion.
Now let's see if i can go 3 on 3 with prediction on refs with the turkey - senegal game......i really hope to be wrong this time, because my team now is senegal.......o damn, i forgot....i'm racist, so how can i route for them??......mmmmmhhh......maybe i'm not so racist .....do you want to know where i'm going to see the match?? in front of my university there has been taken a mega screen, for senegal's italian comunity and for the thousand italian persons that now are routing for them......i should easily say that all italian people are routing for senegal, except for someone routing for brasil......
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| 18 | kev
ID: 11438306
Sat, Jun 22, 2002, 05:59
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After seeing many replays, its easy to critique. Unless your a referee, I wouldnt get upset about the calls. Both calls could have gone both ways.
The refs will miss calls. No matter who you get in the game.
I was cheering for Spain, but the better team won. Korea has confidence, momentum, and a huge crowd behind them. They are riding high, and playing better than both Spain and Italy did.
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| 19 | IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621
Sat, Jun 22, 2002, 06:11
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why they played better??
give me a technical motivation please.....
today they clearly deserved to loose since they made 1 serious shoot in the entire game.
Against italy they played better than today, but we even had the biggest scoring opportunities.
where are they playing better??
and you can't say that the calls shoul go in both directions. The final outside for spain was good by far than 1 meter, the ball on the golden goal was clearly inside the field, and on the first goal, if a foul was made it was a penalty foul on helguera who's shirt was clearly taken by a korean. And than, admitted that the calls can go in both directions, how is it possible that on 6 consecutive times they've gone into korea's direction and no one against, even if they clearly had to go against??
here is an article from www.as.com
Los italianos se fueron del Mundial por sus errores, pero también por los fallos del árbitro ecuatoriano Byron Moreno, que, curiosamente, siempre se equivocó a favor de Corea en el partido que enfrentó a ambas selecciones en octavos de final. Los italianos denunciaron una persecución arbitral y se sintieron víctimas del tradicional apoyo del estamento arbitral a los países organizadores.
En España se vivió con cierta indiferencia esta polémica, pero ahora se ha visto inmersa en ella y ha sufrido hasta la desesperación los fallos del árbitro egipcio Gamal Ghandour, que dirigió el España-Noruega (0-1) de la Eurocopa 2000, y sus asistentes Ali Tomusange, de Uganda, y Michael Ragoonath, de Trinidad y Tobago. Un encuentro de cuartos de final de un Mundial lo dirige un trío arbitral de países del extrarradio futbolístico, que sólo están en el campeonato por la “generosidad” de la FIFA, que acostumbra a pagar favores en los despachos con designaciones de este tipo. La consecuencia es una cadena de errores que condicionan un Mundial.
España comenzó a sufrir los fallos de Ghandour, que anuló un gol por presunta falta de Baraja, en el minuto 49. Siguieron una sucesión de fueras de juego inexistentes, que privaron a los españoles de clarísimas ocasiones de gol. Pero lo peor estaba por llegar. En el minuto dos de la prórroga Joaquín centra desde la línea de fondo y Morientes marca. El colegiado egipcio, Ghandour, mal asesorado por el asistente de Trinidad y Tobago, interpreta erróneamente que el balón ha salido por la línea de fondo y anula el gol.
Corea está en semifinales gracias a Gamal Ghandour, como antes estuvo en cuartos de final gracias al ecuatoriano Byron Moreno. La historia se repite y los organizadores vuelven a ser favorecidos por los árbitros. Antes lo fue Inglaterra en el 66 ante Argentina, Alemania contra Holanda en el 74, España en el 82, aunque de poco le sirvió, o México frente a Iraq en el 86. Son sólo algunos ejemplos de lo que ocurre en los Mundiales cuando la selección organizadora está en el césped.
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| 20 | Coolio
ID: 4735618
Sat, Jun 22, 2002, 06:12
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This is amazing Lazio.
With long sentences that don't mean much, you are trying once again to hide the STUPID things you said.
Quote: "and an egyptian is been designed for the korea's game.....they clearly don't deserve a top ref....
isn't it strange??"
And now you switch to the linesmen.
Come on Lazio, won't you quit with this? You are still making allegations on the nationality of the ref and his competence. The egyptian referre was just fine in this game, he is definitely one of the Top 10 refs in the game. But since you cannot admit you were wrong, you move the debate to something else.
"linesman from uganda and trinidad and tobago?!?!?!?" You are making yourself more and more ridiculous.
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| 21 | kev
ID: 11438306
Sat, Jun 22, 2002, 06:14
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Lazio still doesnt admit to his racist statements.
How does the famous saying go?
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....
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| 22 | Coolio
ID: 4735618
Sat, Jun 22, 2002, 06:16
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Lazio, to say that the referees advantage the home team is something which is without any doubt debatable, and I could agree with this without any problem.
But this is not the debate you started.
Your debate is: Third world countries's refs = terrible refs. Don't try to change it , in respect to the intelligence of everyone here.
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| 23 | IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621
Sat, Jun 22, 2002, 06:43
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no coolio, my debate is not Third world countries's refs = terrible refs, even because for example i don't consider trinidad&tobago, malesia, singapore, ecuador, and argentina third world's countries, do you?? Malesia is far better than italy for living for example, and i tell you because i've been there several times.
My debat is: refs who don't often whistle in huge games = great, great possibilities to made enormous mistakes if they are called to do it in a top competition as the world cup, where there should be no place for mistakes.
and i repeat, it's not for some kind of inferiority, but it's ONLY because they don't use to, and don't have the experience. When i say that they don't have the experience i pray you to understand that experience doesn't mean to whistle 10 games in 8 years. Experience is whistling every given sunday in a huge game, as it happens in european soccer, in brasil, and in other countries in which soccer is played at a good level.
I'm terribly sorry if it has seemed that i'm racist, because it's one of the things i hate more, and i excuse myself if it depended for my bad expressions in english.
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| 24 | Coolio
ID: 4735618
Sat, Jun 22, 2002, 06:56
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OK Lazio, debate is closed on my side.
By the way, I never said you were a racist. If you read my posts, i said that you made racist statements, which is not exactly the same thing.
The problem was maybe speaking your mind a little too fast and the written words showed something different. The "monkeys and elephants" choice of words was a poor one and the one that got me on your case.
Debate closed on my side.
And "GO SENEGAL!!!"
By the way, if Senegal wins, we'll have a country from each continent, which would be a great first.
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| 25 | Ref
ID: 28045169
Tue, Jul 02, 2002, 16:29
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lazio, I read and understood everything you said. In no way shapr or form was there anything racist about it. At worst it was Nationalistic. But your point was that how can a country like A have a ref representative in such a big game when that country isn't a national soccer power therefore you assume that the ref hasn't had the experience dealing with such a big match. I understood it and see your point.
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| 26 | Motley Crue
Donor
ID: 53857
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 08:39
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This is something that FIFA itself has acknowledged and claimed they will correct in the next World Cup. Instead of an "All-Star" team of officials, drawn from all over the world, they will switch to Teams that have worked together often and well in the past. This will breed familiarity and comfort during matches, and eliminate excuses for teams that play poorly. No whining in 2006!
As far as I can tell, the statement "an egyptian is been designed for the korea's game.....they clearly don't deserve a top ref" implies that the Korean game was assigned a Top Ref and Lazio disagrees with this choice. It's like if I say
"I can't believe Denise Richards married Charlie Sheen! He definitely doesn't deserve such a hot chick," and you guys decry my criticism of Denise Richards, of which there is none! Maybe I missed something here (the oft-referenced comment about monkeys and elephants?), but I am not picking up any racist sentiments from Lazio here.
I'm sorry I didn't chime in on this earlier: this is the first time I've looked at this thread. But of course, since I am a white American, my opinion probably doesn't count anyway. How could I possibly spot a racist remark unless it sat down on my nose and took a dump?
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| 27 | IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 15:55
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thanks guys, i'm happy that you understand what i meant. And it has been understood by FIFA too, and infact from the next world cup there'll be a severe ref's selection.
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| 28 | Ref
ID: 28045169
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 17:08
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lazio, I am as guilty as many Americans in not understanding the sport of soccer in its entirety--but do follow it a little and have seen a couple hundred matches in my lifetime. I mainly just follow the World Cup and the tournaments leading up to it. However, I did see that the best ref in the world as recognized by FIFA worked the championship and he's 42 yrs old. Mandatory retirement age for that psoition is 45. They are so impressed with the ref that they are going to try and modify that rule for that one ref. Now that is quite an honor. Btw, I watched teh championship and that ref is indeed very good. Loved how fouls by the linesman were ignored as playons and in replay turned to be right. You never have the best angle on TV or understand the situation like someone that does that for a living and they will make mistakes--but it seems like FIFA is doing themselves proud in an effort to get things right in the future.
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| 29 | IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 17:51
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we hope so, because the fact to accept the field's decision is a sportmanship thing, but it can happen that the field result is badly influenced by something external, as happened to italy and spain.....let's hope!!!
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| 30 | Ref
ID: 28045169
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 17:59
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lazio, just because the ref makes a bad call or calls doesn't mean something external is happenening. The US benefited and were hurt my a handball. The one that hurt them prevented a game-tying goal. That's the breaks. We don't like it, but it is a game played by humans and officiated by humans. I like to think that the mistakes are just that. Sometimes incompetence(sp?) plays a role, but there's nothing I can do about someone else's incompetence.
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| 31 | IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 21:16
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i badly expressed what i meant: i meant external intending outside the 22 men on the field playing.
anyway, soccer's history is full of garbage as the things happened in this world cup, so it wouldn't be difficult for you to trust me if you could just know something happened in the past.
for example maradona was called by blatter to play the wc in the 1994 in the u.s.a. because fifa knew that without him there would have been a lot less interest in it being confident that maradona wasn't in a good shape and wouldn't ever have been decisive. But maradona prepared himself in a great way for the cup and was back as the absolute #1 helping argentina to be dominant. Now, blatter was in a big interest's friendship with havelange and there were rumors before the wc that brazil would have won it.....maradona was a danger and they eliminated him inventing a total farse about him being positive in the doping controls. They knew maradona did it before, and they knew people would have trusted the notice, so they pulled the trigger on him. The fact is supported by the fact that maradona is still asking to see the analisys and they denied him to do it while he was in time to make counteranalisys by himself......now, the thing is a lot more complicated, and this is just a brief exemplification of it, but you should immagine by it how fifa has worked under blatter.
and man, this blatter is under accuse for corruption in switzerland, and there's no way he will escape it. he's dirty, and acts in a dirty way, so people don't trust him anymore.
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