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Subject: Germany v. USA
Posted by: Gangman
- Leader [19228200] Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 08:25
I know next to nothing about soccer, but it appears to me (at haftime with Germany up 1-0) that the goalkeeper for Germany is fantastic, and that the US is way undersized. The Germans are huge.
Also, I don't know why, but I hate that Ziegge (sp?).
Looks like a tough day for the Yanks. |
| 1 | Superclydes
ID: 225228
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 08:29
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Don't count them out yet. Zeige is one of the better defense men in the English Premiership. Donovan should have had at least one goal. After Germany scored the US seemed to crumble. We are lucky to be only down one! Hopefully they will pull it together in the second half. Yes, the Germans are huge. The US can't afford to keep putting crosses into the middle because of the height advantage. They need to press on with driving the ball to the goal. Keep striking and one is bound to go in.
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| 2 | Samuli
ID: 3104968
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 08:29
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"The Yanks" had a dozen opportunities, but Kahn really has made the difference so far. That Landon Donovan -guy sure has some slick moves up his sleeves. Also, when the game is in the air the Germans really dominate. Looking forward for an entertaining second half.
PS. You should/could have posted this under today's "action" -thread... But it's ok like this.
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| 3 | smallwhirled
Donor
ID: 17152614
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 08:30
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Yeah, they dominated us in the air. Kahn is amazing, but there's still hope as we played very well in the first half.
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| 4 | Superclydes
ID: 225228
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 08:37
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HAND BALL!! What a load of crap!! That should have been a penalty!!
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| 5 | Samuli
ID: 3104968
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 08:41
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Yes... Again, the question of the necessity of video-checking rises it's ugly head. That situation was definitely penalty-kick bound.
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| 6 | Superclydes
ID: 225228
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 08:44
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They are definitely pressuring them well now. If they can keep this up, we should score.
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| 7 | JCS
ID: 42531207
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 08:59
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it seems like there's a foul on every action now.
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| 8 | Samuli
ID: 3104968
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 09:06
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True dat. The ref has adopted the route of zero-tolerance and hangs onto it, making the match somewhat dull. Come on, give the whistle a rest will you, it's been a clean game so far!
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| 9 | Superclydes
ID: 225228
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 09:09
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I agree. We seem to be slowing a bit now. We are still getting chances, but we are leaving Germany open to attack. We now have three players ineligible for the next game should we get there.
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| 10 | walk
Leader
ID: 28302616
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 09:30
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It's over, 1 nil Germany. I watched the entire match. The U.S. could not very well get the ball near the German net in the second half. We had a great scoring opportunity in the 89th minute though, but a header went just wide. Just wide!
Also, there was that German hand ball and a many yellow cards against the Americans that were not called in kind against the Germans. If I were Lazio, I'd be quite loud about it.
The Americans were not pushed around like in '98, but this was a older, slower, lesser rated German team that we could have beaten. Donovan had two great chances in the first half, and he should have converted on one of them. Our speed and strategy worked well in the first 15-20 minutes, but when the Germans started pressing, and playing the air game near the American goal, we could all just sense they were going to get a few good scoring opportunities. One goal and one post and Germany had succeeded in their strategy, while we could not execute in our's.
Back to the second half: The German defense was strong and sturdy. Only in the 85th minute and beyond did the Americans even try to put the ball in the air near the German goal. Mathis set up Stewart (?) beautifully in the 88th or 89th minute, but he flicked the ball just wide on the short side (clearly, he had more room, and the goalie going the wrong way, on the long side). Dang. We had our chances!
- walk
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| 11 | walk
Leader
ID: 28302616
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 09:35
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It was Sanneh who just missed the equalizer in the 88th minute, not Stewart.
I really do not feel good about outplaying the Germans, or not being pushed around. I really wanted to win this game because I knew we could. Aaaargh!
- walk
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| 12 | Myboyjack
Leader
ID: 4443038
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 09:38
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Mark Cuban has announced that in response to the German victory over the US and the uncalled handball and multiple penaties - that Dirk Nowitzki has been waived from the Dallas Mavericks.
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| 13 | walk
Leader
ID: 28302616
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 09:48
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Very funny Myboyjack, very funny indeed. I sure hope the Knicks pick him up!
Man, it's amazing the impact the officiating has had on a few of these matches. When goals are sooooo very rare, you really have to have consistent and flawless officiating. But who I am to judge? I have only recently been watching soccer, and primarily world cup at that, so I know but the tip of the tip of the iceberg.
Still, I have heard others who are more experienced say that the officiating in this cup has been the poorest in a long while. It burns me somewhat, but never to the point where I absolve my team from winning based on their execution, that our result was affected, in part, by a blown call (handball on the goal-line? how often does that happen!?! and get missed?!?).
- walk
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| 14 | leggestand
ID: 501029817
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 10:06
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Ahhhh...so close. We looked very good, and a couple mistakes to give them crosses for free kicks cost us. We had chances, and our young guys looked good, but like WALK said, I do not feel good about "looking good" while losing because we could of won. Kahn played tremendously, and so did Donovan - who had something to prove after riding the bench for Leverkusan. I thought our subs (Mathis, Stewart, and Jones) kind of let us down. They are supposed to provide a spark because they have extra energy, and it just seemed like it wasn't there from them.
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| 15 | KrazyKoalaBears
Donor
ID: 266182910
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 10:15
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I just saw the replay and the ball ran into the defenders forearm. How is that a handball? Isn't there supposed to be some sort of forward motion or something? From what I saw earlier and from what I just saw again on CNN, the guys arm was by his side and the ball just hit it and bounced off. Is this a handball? Seriously, I don't know. That's why I'm asking.
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| 16 | walk
Leader
ID: 28302616
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 10:17
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Yeah, leggestand. I agree on two of those subs, but Mathis was the one who set up for Sanneh for the equalizer and he could not convert. Mathis could not get ANY space to operate, and the German defense was too "thick" for any other Americans to feed Mathis in the box for scoring opportunities. Donovan was our best player today, and kudos to Reyna for being the guy who pushed back whenever the Germans tried to intimidate. He played like a true captain (but unfortunately, could not set anyone up).
We have learned yet again from the Germans. Next time, I expect a victory (whoever the "physical" Euro opponent may be).
- walk
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| 17 | IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 10:22
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guys i've to say that u.s.a. is REALLY a huge soccer team. I didn't have confidence in them remembering their last world cup, but in theese 4 years they have improved greatly. There are guys like sanneh, donovan, reyna, beasley that are really studs, and would be a nice fit for every european team. Even arena showed a great ability in settling games, even if he made the great mistake of taking beasley out for tonight's game.....he would have been the key to open a german's slow defense....was he injured??
Again guys, don't be afraid, because you've a great future in front of you, if you would allow soccer to enter strongly in your culture.......
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| 18 | Myboyjack
Leader
ID: 4443038
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 10:44
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IR - I really enjoy the World Cup every four years - but that's about all the soccer I can tolerate. I think that soccer is very much like the metric system or the musical appeal of John Tesh - it's just not gonna' take in the USA.
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| 19 | leggestand
ID: 501029817
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 10:44
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It funny that Lazio said Sanneh. Somehow Sanneh had the cup of his life. I never thought he was that good until the Cup started and I have seen him many times first hand going to DC United games when he was on the team. He showed some great stuff this tourney.
You're right walk, Mathis did set up Sanneh for the winner, and thats about the extent he could of done against that backline. I can't stress how well we played. And it sucks that we could of won and played in the semifinals!!! Well, maybe with a little more experience and after we develop our game a little bit more, we can turn some more heads in 2006.
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| 20 | Samuli
ID: 3104968
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 12:17
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KKB - Yea that definitely was a handball, it doesn't matter wether the hand moves or not, if the ball touches any part of the hand or arm... yep, it's a foul.
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| 21 | walk
Leader
ID: 214581016
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 13:02
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Yeah, KKB, from what I understand, it's a judgment call (in some cases, the refs will not call inadvertant hand balls), but in this case, the hand deflection actually prevented a goal! So, it really was a must (and missed) call.
I think Beasley did not play because he is quite slight of stature, and that he would have been easily manhandled. Donovan is small, too, but I think Arena wanted some balance, size-wise. Beasley, in hindsight, would have been the better substitution in the 2nd half instead of Cobi Jones.
Lazio: I really think there are two fundamental reasons why soccer is not huge commercially in the states (it's quite huge educationally);
1. We are saturated with commercial team sports: baseball, football, basketball and hoops. There is no room for another big sport.
2. We are accustomed, unfortunately, to scoring, and a lot of us are too unsophisticated to appreciate the skills, nuances and stamina that are part of soccer. This is not to generalize to ALL americans, but to the majority -- mostly based on our addictions to our American sports (baseball, american football).
All, IMHO. Fortunately, our country has relatively so much money that we can still develop a strong soccer program despite the lack of commercial interest. I think.
- walk
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| 22 | KrazyKoalaBears
Donor
ID: 266182910
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 13:09
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Ok, I went and did a little research and found this article from the FIFA site. In it, the referee explains: "Voluntary and involuntary handball : It seems some people might not like it, but a handball decision can only mean a direct free kick (or a penalty if in the area). The idea of giving an indirect free kick for a "minor" handball offence is nothing less than an error by the referee, and it could have serious repercussions. The referee has just one thing to consider in taking his necessarily quick decision in a handball situation : was it intentional or not? He has to decide whether the ball went to the hand, maybe on the rebound, or the hand to the ball. He should not intervene if the ball goes to hand, nor if the player is clearly protecting himself rather than trying to take advantage of the situation." Interesting.
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| 23 | walk
Leader
ID: 214581016
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 13:33
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What a bunch of doubletalk...if you are an American. If you are more objective, which right now, I am cannot say I am (your honour), I would say that the handball was unintentional, and they play on.
But there is clearly a huge judgmental component in the way soccer games are officiated and the way handballs are called. Not only that, linesmen can actually make this call (not reserved for the refs only), so they all kinda just kept their whistles quiet. To me, the hand of a non-goalie kept the ball from going in the net. That is so severe, so egregious, that it HAD to be called. I know it's not quite analogous to a hockey player diving on a puck with his hands in the crease (auto goal, right KKB?), but here, the hand saved a goal. No, no, no, no, no, no, no,no.
- walk
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| 24 | KrazyKoalaBears
Donor
ID: 266182910
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 13:43
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walk, so what if the ball hit 6 inches to the right on the defender? Suddenly it's all fine? I think the point is that the defender just happened to be there. He didn't move his arm at all in any manner -- at least not in any of the replays I've seen -- so there's no way to say that he intentionally blocked the ball from going in the net. And if he didn't intentionally do it, then it's clear from the article -- I don't see the doubletalk you're referring to since it looks pretty straightforward to me -- that nothing should be done about it. No matter how much I wish that the US had won, I think the refs made the right call. You can't call a foul for something that happened purely out of luck -- for the Germans. Also, I think the situation you describe for hockey would result in a penalty shot, not an automatic goal. I could be wrong, but I'm not sure there is ever a situation where a goal is automatically awarded.
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| 25 | walk
Leader
ID: 214581016
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 13:56
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Yeah, I think you're correct about the penalty shot in hockey, KKB.
In terms of the soccer game -- my comment was about the wording...the first paragraph is quite awkward, but the 2nd one is clearer. I think, ultimately, I'll stick to the argument that soccer officiating seems very, very subjective, and in this case, I think it more wrong that it was a non-call than it being called a hand-ball. But of course, I was rooting for America, and not Germany!
And, fortunately, I care more about the yankees, giants, knicks and yankees than I do about this match -- but I can surely see how that is more bizarre. Man, the passion and the tears, pain, glory and delight these fans take in the world cup -- it surely goes beyond anything we experience in our country around sports (some good/some bad). Very culturally interesting.
- walk
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| 26 | Samuli
ID: 3104968
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 14:00
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No KKB, the situation really was that clear, no need to try and make it look like brain surgery... Whenever the ball hits the hand of a defending player INSIDE the box it's ALWAYS a reason for a penalty-kick, and this case was made particularly clear by the fact that the hand was the only bodypart preventing the ball from hitting the net...
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| 27 | KrazyKoalaBears
Donor
ID: 266182910
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 14:17
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walk, I agree that the second paragraph is more clear, which is why I included it. I think they're both saying the same thing, but the second one clarifies what was being said in the first paragraph. As to the subjectiveness of the officiating, it's that way in all sports. One ump's strike zone is not necessarily another ump's strike zone. Same for traveling in the NBA -- as if it even exists anymore -- or posession in the NFL or roughing in the NHL and countless other calls across all leagues. But reading the what the FIFA article says, it seems that the ref got the call right, no matter how subjective it is. I, too, was rooting for the US all the way, but I think it dampens the accomplishments of the US team this year if the focus that comes from this World Cup is on a supposed handball non-call. Look at Italy. Everything about this World Cup will focus on one ref in one game for their country. I would hate to see the same result for a US team that exceeded all expectations in all facets of play. I see a good non-call where no call was obvious and a good team that got beat by a better team. Another day, possibly another result. Samuli, where is the rule for this? Is this just your opinion? Clearly, the FIFA site has an article that disputes what you're saying. If you FEEL that it's always a reason for a penalty-kick, then so be it. But that doesn't seem to be what the rule is.
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| 28 | Checker
ID: 054210
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 14:22
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Come on guys. Being a former soccer official as well as rooting for the good ole USA, the official in todays game made the correct no-call. A handball call is a judgemental call by the official as to whether a player "intentionally" played the ball to gain an advantage. In this case, it was plain to one who can forego the emotions that the defender did not play the ball but that the ball played him. This is probably the most misunderstood part of soccer here in the USA. I have seen it so many times in youth soccer that a fan gets irate because an official either called a handball or didnt call a handball. I would venture that 95% of all fans think that if the ball touches the hand then a handball should be called by the official regardless of whether the player intentionally played the ball or not. Furthermore, probably 90% of American soccer officials will call a handball regardless of intent out of fear of the fan uproar. I applaud todays officials for making the correct call, IMHO. The US missed some golden opportunities to score and it is very unfortunate that they did so. I think the team earned the respect of their peers throughout the world and only good things can come from that if they keep working at it.
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| 29 | Harkonnon
ID: 34149816
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 14:23
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ola Dudes (esp. Walk - who would have thought that a soccer game is the reason for having a lil chat since a long, long time, shame on me !!!)
Congrats for the effort of your guys, people here find it a little hard to feel like a winner today, but let's hope (in the German sense) that your squad came up with the game of their lifetime ! Without taking anything away from the USA team I have my doubts and think the German team is as flat as it was seen before the World Cup.
Anyway your guys deserved to advance today as they outplayed the German team most of the time.
Oli Kahn made the difference and really rules in this tournament as he seems to be invincible while cleaning up mistake after mistake by our depleted Defense.
On the handballing of Frings Germany was very lucky that no penalty was called (even though it was clearly unintentional). I've seen similar plays numerous times and way more often than not a penalty was awarded. I'm not even mentioning the RED Card that is possible here. Maybe the Ref (like me) initially, thought the ball was in the goal already and somehow lost the handball in all the fuss. Let's call it a reverse-Italian-bad-luck call. Doh !
On the other side the US Team also was very lucky to not have Reyna ejected (stepping on Jeremies was not such a nice thing to do, especially after elbowing Neuville earlier behind the back of the Ref.) Strange since Reyna usually is a very mild mannered player and has made a name for himself in the Bundesliga as a good and clean player. Well I likened his obvious excuse and chit chat with Jeremies directly after the Game.
The Berhalter tackle on Klose might have brought up another colour than yellow also, but fortunately the Game calmed down a little bit after that.
So what more to say now, hmhmhm todays Quarterfinals were quite a disappointment since the marquee matchup between Brazil and England was anything but exciting and our Germans even bottomened out on that. The only team that left an impression today was the USA and they still came up short.
The point that players employed in Europe have empty tanks due to the grueling schedule is looking more and more valid with each game played in the WC. I can see major changes in the scheduling coming soon.
Anyway Germany got lucky again ;-) today, and since there is no chance anymore to eliminate the Brits this time, they turned the trick on the USA according to the Golden Rules of Gary Lineker
1. Soccer is when 22 guys are playing and Germany wins !
2. If Germany plays well they become World Champions, if they play bad they go to the Finals !
Footnote: Never doubt the expertise of a British expert !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
c ya
Hark
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| 30 | Samuli
ID: 3104968
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 14:31
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No KKB, that's not my personal opinion, I'm deeply sorry if it came out that way... Had the ref noticed what happened, he surely had called a penalty-kick. I've followed this sport for let's see, maybe 16 years now (yea, not that much but considering my age...), and handballs in penalty box is an issue with maybe the least controversy surrounding it... touch it with your hand and you'll get penalized.
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| 31 | Samuli
ID: 3104968
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 14:32
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BTW, cool to see you here Hark.
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| 32 | walk
Leader
ID: 214581016
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 14:34
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HARKONNON!
Hard for me to refute a soccer ref. So, I won't. I guess, I thought, based on what I have typically seen, that call is made. I think Hark seems to suggest the same -- that call is usually made. The sub-cultural differences in refereeing clearly are evident here, but from what others have indicated, in both the media and on TV, that was a missed call.
Still, it's not cut and dry and I do not pretend it to be. And I will not come even close to suggesting we lost because of that call (but it sure did not seem like the "right"(eous) call). We had our chances, Zahn, came up big, Donovan could not lift a left-shooted shot over him on more than one occasion, we could not figure out Germany's defense for most of the second half, and then Sanneh missed our last gasp. Aaaargh.
Now back to my original thought of this post...HARKONNON! You bastid, it's been so dang long that it did not even dawn on me to engage you in a friendly little email dialogue about this upcoming game, and the outcome. Well, now that it's clear as a bell, I'll send you an email. Here's hoping your email address has not changed. And if it has, mine is hyperlinked.
:-)
walk
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| 33 | quik_ag@work
ID: 12432289
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 14:36
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an unintentional handball, which that clearly was is rarely called. watching the game, I really don't think the ref could even see the contact. It took me a couple of replays to realize it was striking his forearm and not his thigh. I've done my fair share of reffing and I wouldn't have called the penalty even if I were to see the play clearly. The defender was guarding the post, and his arms were close to his body, and behind him a bit. Were they spread out to take away more area from the goal, it could have been called, but the handball was clearly unintentional.
I also would have really liked to see Beasley in the game. Although he's small, his speed could have worked wonders for the team (see what chances Donovan created.) I do think Jones played remarkably well, and I generally think that he's a waste of a body on our team at his age and skill level.
In the end, we were just a tad too small. We needed some bigger guys in the back to counter the likes of klose, jancker, and ballack. It's going to be very very interesting to see how the team does in the seemingly very bright future.
I was disappointed in Mathis, thought he played a bit reserved and I think Reyna made some mistakes. He was clearly off his game today. I'm happy we gained some respect and played incredibly well today -- maybe the best we ever have, but I can't help but feel disappointed that we weren't able to convert on any of our several opportunities. And really, if Ballack hadn't scored as early as he did, we would have been in better shape as it seemed the defense slowly gained a grasp on how to defend the balls in the air in the box. Watch out, 2006 ;-)
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| 34 | Samuli
ID: 3104968
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 14:42
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Being unitentional doesn't matter in this case as the hand was the only bodypart between the ball and the net. But I see that there are clearly two different skools considering handballs so further discussion isn't likely to be too fruitous, you say tomato, I say tomato.
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| 35 | Harkonnon
ID: 34149816
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 15:21
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walk thanks for your mail ! I'll will respond over the weekend though as you deserve a more elaborate code as usual !
Samuli thanks for your nice words ! you olden Italifan err Italifinn !
yo bros of the gurupian kind (especially those of US origin)
I think you kind of experience what the World Cup is all about for the Rest of the World !
Emotions and passion growing to unheard of heights so clean and rational thinking sometimes or better most of the time is lost, fortunately for a few days only so there is a chance (a minimal one though) that our southern friends in Italy regain a clearer view of things again. (No Lazio I'm not rubbing it in ! Sh/t happens !)
Still I have to say that the US Team and from what I see here the Average People (take that you Yanks ! hehehe) handle the loss and bad luck very well.
Sarcasm mode change that if you want to become a soccer nation sarcasm mode end
as Samuli said tomato is not tomato
a non called handball for quik_ag is a penalty and a Red for slow-ref
a Red for Ronaldinho is a yellow for Berhalter
a potential Tomassi Golden Goal is a blown offside call by the linesman and and whistled dead before he even put it in, which could even draw an additional yellow
a mild mannered Cameroon-Germany draws 16 yellows while a more physical USA Germany match gets just 7
sometimes I think the uncertainty of the calls is just as huge a factor as the rivalries and national pride involved or the skill and teamwork it takes what makes the World Cup so fascinating.
In this sense
Go Korea you are not the best team for sure, but nobody has worked than you guys, so make it happen.
Hark
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| 36 | walk
Leader
ID: 214581016
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 15:40
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Funny, as usual, Hark. I'll catch yer mail over the weekend.
Yeah, we're basically too naive about the ramifications of the world cup to get too upset about losing today ;-)
I do enjoy the clear higher stakes and intensity of play in this tournament compared to our intra-country sports though. It is a shame that it's only once every four years (but I guess the Euro Cup, which is in between makes that more acceptable).
- walk
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| 37 | walk
Leader
ID: 214581016
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 16:03
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A good article by George Vescey, of the NY Times. A sage writer who has a love for soccer that is pure (and who has covered the world cup many times):
Americans Have Joined the World
By GEORGE VECSEY
ULSAN, South Korea
The young Americans have had their magazine covers and their network television gigs and their morning phone call from President Bush. They have enticed millions of Americans to get up at dawn to watch the weird spectacle of Americans winning soccer games.
It was fun while it lasted, but it was also much more than fun. It was well-earned success in the biggest sports tournament in the world, and maybe the phenomenon has legs.
Maybe a few extra fans come out to see DaMarcus Beasley or Landon Donovan or Clint Mathis play in Major League Soccer before they are recruited by the richest leagues in Europe. Maybe Brad Friedel and Tony Sanneh jerseys start appearing in public.
At very least, Americans have seen their fellow countrymen stand with the Portuguese and Koreans, Poles and Mexicans, and on Friday night the Germans. The hard game caused Oliver Kahn, the winning goalkeeper, to fall supine in his own goal after the final whistle.
"They had two days' less rest than we did and they played hard for 90 minutes," said Kahn, a tough professional not given to gushing compliments.
The American players should remember how the Yanks pushed Germany for 90 full minutes in the quarterfinal of the World Cup, and even though they lost, 1-0, they went out with respect from within and from without.
As a frame of reference, the Germans bullied another American team, 2-0, in the first game of the 1998 World Cup in France. The Yanks never recovered and were gone in 270 minutes. This time they played five games, right into the quarterfinals, and they did far more than cut the goal differential in half.
"Germany played 70 minutes with 10 players back," said Tony Meola, the reserve goalkeeper who goes back to 1990 when he was young, and the coaches were recruiting warm bodies to fill out the roster.
This game was one of the best the Americans played of the five in this tournament. Germany scored off a set play from a free kick, just as Bruce Arena had feared. And Germany needed luck that the referee did not object to Torstein Frings' just happening to have his left arm dangling where Gregg Berhalter's ball was about to cross the goal line.
It was a debatable call. Frings knows that a defender on the goal line cannot totally hide his two arms, so it is quite likely he had his hand there on purpose, and made sure he deflected the ball.
"The big countries still get a lot of calls," Arena said, falling short of whining. "It was amazing the number of times they fell to the ground. I didn't realize we were that strong."
The Germans have the biggest and best athletes in the nation, who were plucked out of grade-school competitions to become footballers. The Americans have kids who either realized they were not big enough to dominate in the big American sports or who picked up the romance of playing soccer at an early age.
But they are catching up. Tony Sanneh, whose father comes from Gambia in Africa, is a strapping 6-foot, 2-inch, 188-pounder from St. Paul, Minn. He plays in Nuremberg and knows these Germans well. On Friday night Sanneh played defense and also dribbled upfield and also materialized near the goal for headers. There are more where he came from back in the States.
It was reassuring to see the Germans play so physically, and have to flop and scramble to keep up with these cheeky people who are not quite outsiders anymore.
In a World Cup of strange doings and blatant upsets, the old order has not mattered for much. Senegal set the tone by stunning France in the first game. Argentina couldn't get out of the first round. The Netherlands never even got here. Spain committed a foolish foul and barely hung on to beat Ireland on penalty kicks. South Korea outlasted Italy, which tried to survive on flops and style points. Either Senegal or Turkey will reach the semifinals for the first time.
Finally, on Friday, Brazil showed some intelligence by holding a 2-1 lead over England with only 10 players on the field, and Germany had the determination to hold off these spunky challengers.
"We've seen it many times," Arena said. "When the Germans don't play well, they still find a way to win."
The result will look like 1-0 in print. But for everybody who got in front of a television set with a new day dawning in America, it was a wonderful time. The Americans are quarterfinalists now. The young century is ahead of them.
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| 38 | kev
ID: 11438306
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 17:18
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I feel the handball in this game wasnt a bad missed call. From everything gathered by the rules, the ref has the job to judge weather it was intentional or not. Unlike in the Mexico/US game, this handball was cleary inadvertant.
And also, KKB, the only time I have ever heard a goal maybe being awarded in hockey without the puck actually being put in the net is if the goalie is pulled, and a player is pulled down on a breakaway. It almost happened this year. Late in the season, Atlanta was playing Calgary, and Jerome Iginla reaching 50 was still in question... Atlanta had the goalie pulled, and Iginla was on a breakaway. Heatley pulled him down at the blue line, but no goal was given, but the Flames did file a formal protest
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| 39 | Sludge
Sustainer
ID: 113368
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 17:34
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I think the two things that made the biggest difference were Kahn's play (obviously) and Germany's size in helping them get headers to clear the ball on crosses and corners. Their size wasn't the advantage that I think everyone thought it was going to be in the middle third of the field.
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| 40 | Gangman
Leader
ID: 272101914
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 17:40
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Nice to see an active thread. I've learned a lot about the game and the rules reading the great posts.
Re: Post# 2 - PS. You should/could have posted this under today's "action" -thread... But it's ok like this.
Sorry, but this game clearly called for it's own thread.
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| 41 | The Beezer
Leader
ID: 23520518
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 17:49
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Regarding automatic goals awarded, I remember hearing that Gretzky was awarded a goal once when a player threw his stick in the way of a puck heading towards an empty net.
Here's the official rules on awarded goals (I'll go on-topic in a minute, I swear):
Rule 51(c), paragraph 3 "Delaying the Game":
In the event that a goalpost is deliberately displaced by a defending player or goalkeeper, prior to the puck crossing the goal line between the normal position of the goalposts, the Referee, at his discretion, may assess a minor penalty under Rule 51(c) (paragraph 1), a penalty shot under Rule 51(d), or award a goal.
Rule 30(b), paragraph 2 "Penalty Shots"
The goalkeeper may attempt to stop the shot in any manner except by throwing his stick or any object, in which case a goal shall be awarded.
Rule 67(h) "Interference"
If, when the goalkeeper has been removed from the ice, any member of his Team (including the goalkeeper) not legally on the ice, including the Manager, Coach or Trainer, interferes by means of his body, stick or any other object with the movements of the puck or an opposing player, the Referee shall immediately award a goal to the non-offending Team.
Rule 72(n) "Leaving the Players' or Penalty Bench"
If the opposing goalkeeper has been removed and a player throws or shoots any part of a stick or any other object at the puck or puck carrier, or if the puck carrier is fouled from behind, thereby being prevented from having a clear shot on an open goal, a goal shall be awarded to the attacking Team.
If, when the opposing goalkeeper has been removed from the ice, a player of the side attacking the unattended goal is interfered with by a player who shall have entered the game illegally, the Referee shall immediately award a goal to the non-offending Team.
Rule 88(a), paragraph 2 "Throwing Stick"
If, when the opposing goalkeeper has been removed, a member of the defending Team, including any Manager, Coach or Trainer, deliberately throws or shoots any part of a stick or any other object at the puck or puck carrier, thereby preventing the puck carrier from having a clear shot on an "open net," a goal shall be awarded to the attacking side.
Rule 91(c) "Tripping"
If, when the opposing goaltender has been removed from the ice, a player in control of the puck is tripped or otherwise fouled with no opposition between him and the opposing goal, thus preventing a reasonable scoring opportunity, the Referee shall immediately stop play and award a goal to the attacking Team.
Back on-topic in a minute...
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| 42 | The Beezer
Leader
ID: 23520518
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 17:52
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Regarding today's game, I was pleased we played well, and pleased that I was disappointed that we didn't win. Seems like the U.S. is getting more respect for their loss than the games they won.
Wish that we could have rematched South Korea, though. I was hoping we'd see Landon Donovan score a goal and then re-enact Roy Jones Jr. getting shafted in the 1988 Seoul Olympics. Turnabout is fair play! :)
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| 43 | El Tel
ID: 56423193
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 19:25
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Hark,
Posted long message in the other thread but it did not make it.
Your Wankerless team was not as good as I thought it might be.Ballack will hold you back for years if you build a team around him.
To win in Germany we need mucho:
-A right back-maybe Hargreaves- but he does not want it
-A goalie-that should not prove a problem
-Left midfield-left-footed so that we can go Belgian,when the occasion demands
-The Sven/Becks axis failed us. We made wrong and narrow subs with a pre-plan that was not appropriate.
We have to be like Ireland when the occasion demands.
Bring Back Venables:the true and meaningful
El Tel
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| 44 | biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 3502218
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 19:32
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El Tel - Do think Seaman misplayed the kick that looped over his head?
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| 45 | Harkonnon
ID: 34149816
Sat, Jun 22, 2002, 07:05
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Tel !
I can not comment on the Ericsson situation, but I think there was way too much fuss about Beckham and his abilities. He is similar to Roberto Carlos one of the most lethal dead ball players around but their impact in the flow of the game is overhyped imho. Add a questionable defense work ethic and you have a prob if you rely on them. I think Owen is your man, unparalled speed and a great finisher. If you find the right forward to play with him, i say here a Klose clone and your attack will be lethal. On the back and left side situation I'm not sure what is missing in England in terms of quality, but a change of tactics from 4-4-2 to maybe 3-5-2 might plug your holes in the lineup as well. Watch out Brits couch potatoe talking out loud here !
anyway I expect your team to make a run for the roses soon !
On the German team
The situation is really strange here, with Deisler and Scholl missing our creative midfield is reduced to Ballack, who is limping with injuries also, and we have no chance to rest him no matter what. The defense is also in ruins with Nowotny and Wörns missing and Rehmer not fully recovered from a long injury. So for the first time since the stoneage or so nobody expected anything from our guys (which in German terms considers reaching the Quarterfinals as a huge success)
On Ballack
Everybody knows he is not a real leader even if healthy, but suffering for years from a Primadonna like Möller I would take a Ballack any second. Still I don't think Rudi will built a team around one guy. Projected Midfield Starters in coming years will be Ballack and Deisler backed by Jeremies and Hamann leaving one spot for the likes of Ziege, Schneider, Ramelow, Kehl, Ricken and Frings
Our Defense should be solid as long as Nowotny is healthy Metzelder and Baumann seem to have the inside track to start soon.
Forwards quality is thin though
Klose a pleasant surprise but he might be the second coming of Paolo Rossi will say he can disappear any second. After that there is not a lot of guys with a future. Neuville and Asamoah are smallish dribblers and more of a role player than a starter.
Well too much babbling (btw hope he recovers soon) about boring German depth charts, back to Engeeeeeland. I still wonder why your team let the first place in Group F so easily slip away, they would have had Senegal and now maybe Turkey instead of Denmark (which was a closer game than the score indicated imho) and Brazil. In the semis your chances against Brazil would have been much better playing later in the day and avoiding the grueling heat. What do you think about this ?
Hark
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| 46 | El Tel
ID: 56423193
Tue, Jun 25, 2002, 03:40
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Bili:yes! see the action thread.It is not the first time the pony tail has done this kind of thing.
Hark:today we are all honorary Germans.If that is what it takes to get rid of the Korean curse on this World Cup.Some of the most influential members of our press have turned on them big time,and with justification I think.Memories of Argentina,1978.
England:last 8 was a 'triumph' for us too,according to many.No doubt we were not favoured by the heat.But we could have lost to both Sweden and Nigeria ,and not got out of the group.We took our revenge on the Argies and did the rest of the world a favour.That will have to do.My fear with Owen is that he is approching his sell-by date.70% fit for the last game on his own admission,that is the rule rather than the exception nowadays.A yard less pace and he is merely a good player rather than a great one.Huge questions about his body's ability to stand the rigours of modern football.
El Tel
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