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Subject: Heck of a baseball league you run, nervclinic Posted by: spachalagu - [51912417] Tue, May 01, 01:54 If you disagree with someone, you erase the entire message board and lock them out from their team to prevent them from posting further. How mature. If their were any doubt in my mind about quiting this ridiculous mess and discontinuing interaction with it's roster o' fools before, your behavior tonight eliminated it. | ||||||
| 34 | Madman ID: 29246911 Tue, May 01, 18:18 |
KevinL -- I agree with that whole assessment. A few notes on that dimension: a) in the same post where I said that I thought the MLB.com information was false, I explained why I thought it was false -- I thought it said that Grilli had 3 MLB starts last year when he only had one. b) Spach responded rather strongly, and re-posted the quote. c) At spach's urging, I re-read the quote, and realized that I misinterpreted it. I immediately acknowledge my error. I repeated an apology for mis-reading the information twice. None of that has served to lessen the harshness of the rhetoric. In fact, I got flamed for repeating the fact that I apologized, ironically enough! LOL. d) In the meantime, however, between my initial mis-reading and between my various attempts to correct the record, spach made a series of posts that I thought were factually inaccurate regarding my previous quotes, regarding some statistical representation of the players involved, etc. It was after he had posted about three of these inflammatory posts (it was in these posts that he called me an "illiterate or liar", etc. I then lost my cool and made a post titled something like what spach (fairly) quoted above: "Spach, start telling the truth". Later, I apologized to spach and the league for putting up an inflammatory headline. However, I have not apologized for the factual "corrections" to the record that I made in that post -- only the manner in which I titled the message. I refuse to apologize because I still stand by my assertion that those statements were either incorrect, inflammatory, both, or otherwise misleading. Unfortunately, the record has indeed been erased. Suffice it to say, this whole debate lasted about 40-50 posts, so there was a lot there. At any rate, at this point, I feel no need or desire to apologize for anything other than what I have already done. I made an honest mistake reading a quote from MLB.com -- a quote that wasn't in complete sentences and had a rather strange structure to it. But I totally misread the quote, and should have trusted MLB.com a bit more . . . I suppose I was biased against them because I haven't found their site to be very useful in general. At any rate, it is this mistake that has qualified me as an illiterate. I'm still not certain where the accusation of liar came from, but I'm sure spach will enlighten us . . . As I said somewhere above, this was an utterly trivial issue . . . And when he says "madman and co.", I don't know what he's referring to. A few other people made posts during this whole thing, but my interpretation of their actions was that they were trying to be peace-makers, and they were trying to do a good job of staying impartial and just helping us to move on. Myboyjack even made a funny post that played off of one of spach's insults to me. Rather than helping the situation, however, it seemed like the more anyone tried to help us move on, the worse things got. | |||||
| 35 | Madman ID: 29246911 Tue, May 01, 18:24 |
Oh, one last thing. No matter how heated the debate, I have never in any post accused anyone of being a liar in this whole thing. You've seen the debate about the false information quote. And I started to respond point by point trying to illustrate factual errors or inconsistencies in arguments. However, in none of this did I assert that spach didn't believe what he was saying . . . in my book, you're only a liar if you knowingly state falsehoods. | |||||
| 36 | Madman ID: 29246911 Tue, May 01, 18:31 |
I hate it when I add a last thing to a last thing . . . but I figured I would explain the motivation for the "telling the truth" headline . . . in an immediately prior message, spach had said that he never posted without having documentation to backup everything as true. In my post, one of the things I was trying to do was illustrate that he didn't have all the documentation that he thought he had . . . I was in effect trying to get him to realize that he had NOT held himself to the standards that he thought he had, thus "start doing it" basically. If I would have been less pissed off, I might have turned a more artful phrase. But given my illiteracy, I think it is nevertheless quite remarkable that it was even mildly cogent enough to provoke a response. | |||||
| 37 | Baldwin ID: 143573018 Tue, May 01, 18:43 |
See that was your real offense Madman. Tellin' him his research might be faulty. This whole thing erupted because Spach claimed Grilli was just ridiculously unsuited to the ML's. He did in fact obviously do a lot of homework regarding minor league performance to prove it but does everyone here agree he doesn't now never did and never will belong in the big leagues? Well try tellin' disputing that with Spach and it's like you insulted his mother. | |||||
| 38 | Madman ID: 29246911 Tue, May 01, 19:06 |
I think you're right, Baldwin, that was my worst offense. Since then I have been persuaded that Grilli doesn't belong in the majors. The arguments that persuaded me: a) He's a piece of dirt. I can't think of any dirt that can throw a decent fastball. b) He need to find an occupation where they don't require the use of both arms. Doh! If I would have realized that the majors required both arms to be used, I never would have thought he should have a roster slot. c) The 70 innings immediately preceding his arm surgery were terrible. Anybody who has trouble in the PCL, let alone when they might have been in serious pain, shouldn't be allowed in the majors. Yep. That's enough to persuade me that he's the worst pitcher to ever be allowed to pitch in the majors. QED. Just can't believe I didn't see the light before. Uh oh. It's started again . . . I probably shouldn't post this . . . aaargh. Oh well. Moderators can delete if they deem it to be insulting or inflammatory. | |||||
| 39 | Baldwin ID: 143573018 Tue, May 01, 19:16 |
And noone lept in to side with those arguments. Imagine that! I'm starting to feel the need to apologize...must resist... | |||||
| 40 | spachalagu ID: 51912417 Tue, May 01, 19:33 |
Madman: In posts #34, Madman must have typed more than a 500 words. It's not only confusing for anyone else to read. He contradicted and confused himself so much trying to keep his story straight that he had to put up two more posts to correct his own corrections! This is real simple. Madman accused me of posting fabricated information. Madman accused me of being a liar in his message headline, "get a grip, spach, and start telling the truth". That crosses way over the line of "trash talk". That's an attack on my integrity. I asked him to apologize for attacking my credibilty. He refused claiming his statements were only an attack on the truth. For the record, I said that if he claimed he couldn't understand from the information I had posted that Grilli had only pitched one ML start and had pitched in Calgary in 1999 and 2000, he was either illiterate OR a liar. The MLB.com info stated Grilli was sent down to Calgary and I had complete stats for 1999 and 2000 in Calgary cut n' pasted as well. It was all spelled out in basic terms. Madman THEN CLAIMED the information I had cut n' pasted into the post wasn't there! I said if he claimed the information wasn't present in that post to prove those points, he was either functionally illiterate [could read English] or a liar [could read English, but refused to admit he had made such a ridiculous screw up]. It was after this second exchange of posts that Madman FINALLY began to admit that Grilli's one start and 1999 stats were written in the post. Then Madman started to claim that a year didn't pass between 1999 and 2000!?! Yes, this got wierd. After all that, Madman posted his headline that charged me of being a liar. He later said of that he had "gotten a little carried away". He never apologized for calling me a liar. He never apologized for saying my MLB.com information was fabricated. At this point I asked the other people in the league to settle Madman down. Nobody did. He just kept right on claiming I wasn't telling the truth about Grilli's stats no matter how many times I responded with point-by-point information that contradicted all his statements. He just acted as if I ignored his claims no matter how much I posted. At this point, I said I'd rather not participate in a league that allowed a member to be dumped on like I was getting dumped on. I again asked for help getting Madman chiiled out, but again, nobody would. Finally after a few more hours of this, I benched my team in protest. I didn't have any other means to get their attention. I asked again for them to chill out Madman. Again nothing. At that point I said my team was staying benched until people stepped forward to deal with Madman. I already said earlier what nerveclinic posted as a reply later. | |||||
| 41 | Baldwin ID: 143573018 Tue, May 01, 19:49 | I think benching your team to extort an apology perfectly mirrored your behavior in the political forum Spach. Thank you for your contribution to making the Political Gurus League more of the same amusing entertainment that the Political thread has brought us. | |||||
| 42 | Madman ID: 29246911 Tue, May 01, 19:54 |
sigh. posts 35 and 36 are not corrections. They are addendums. Supplementary. In addition to. Not in place of. I never accused you of posting fabricated information. I accused you of posting erroneous information. I even gave you the quote that I got confused by: "went 1-3 with a 7.42 ERA prior to his debut with the Marlins and 0-1 with a 6.75 in two starts following his Major League debut." I said that he made only one start at the MLB level, not three as that quote suggests. (an interpretation which I now admit is flawed.) You could have simply pointed out that we both agreed that he only made 1 start at the MLB level. Instead, you went off, calling me a liar among other things. Obviously, I corrected my that assertion in my next post, at your urging. Just because a stat happens in 1999 doesn't mean that it is a "full calendar" year between starts. He was in Fresno, not Calgary, a calendar year before his MLB debut, and perhaps even somewhere else a year before his arm injury. This sounds petty, but you kept going on and on about a full year and a calendar year, and I got tired of it, to be frank. It's quite plausible that the end of 1999 was affected by the same arm problems that plagued his 2000. Spach: "It was after this second exchange of posts that Madman FINALLY began to admit that Grilli's one start and 1999 stats were written in the post." I never claimed that his 1999 stats were NOT written in the post. It was the issue of the 2000 MLB stats that I questioned. Therefore, I definitely didn't later address the presence of the 1999 stats, since I had always "admitted" that they were there. How many times can we rehash the same things? I think that's about all I can say. If anyone thinks that there is a point that is left unclear, I will provide clarification. If there are any more charges that surface over the future of this debate (like the 1999 stat thing just did), I'm not going to respond unless a 3rd party desires clarification. Otherwise, I'm terminating my participation in this worthless debate. | |||||
| 43 | spachalagu ID: 51912417 Tue, May 01, 20:29 | Madman, the reason you are "terminating" your participation is because you have been shown to have crossed the line. You know it. You can't deny it. Therefore, just like you refused to admit the statement "Grilli was sent to Calgary following his debut" existed, and just like you refuse to see the cut n' paste stat line showing 60 innings pitched in 1999 in Calgary as happening a year before his 2000 injury, and just because you refuse to admit "piece of dirt" is a colloquialism [Do I have to prove a player has body odor to make the statement "Player X stinks" around you?], you again are refusing to admit to something you are clearly wrong about. If something is inconvienient to you Madman, you refuse to even admit a simple statement in typeface is wrirren on a page right before your very eyes! For those of you that didn't read the thread, this is exactly what Madman did! Towards the end, he claimed he didn't have to apologize about calling me a liar, because I wasn't telling the truth when I called Grilli a piece of dirt! I had no research to prove Grili was a piece of dirt. I thought initially he was kidding, but he wasn't. It was crap like this for post after post after post! Why do y'all think nerveclinic erased all the posts? It's pretty obvious I'm not well liked here. TRUST ME, if they had any posts they could have shown y'all to prove what they did was justifiable, they would have saved them, and there would be links to them all over this thread. | |||||
| 44 | Baldwin ID: 143573018 Tue, May 01, 20:36 |
Now now Spach, we are perfectly capable of liking people and disagreeing with them at the same time. Even people we always disagree with. Heck you're the most entertaining opponent I have here. Like you, I love you man! | |||||
| 45 | Baldwin ID: 143573018 Tue, May 01, 20:37 | * | |||||
| 46 | nerveclinic Donor ID: 58252201 Tue, May 01, 21:00 |
Spach: Congratulations on a great small world baseball season thus far. I had no idea you had gotton off to such a strong start. | |||||
| 47 | Lutefisker ID: 293172723 Tue, May 01, 21:49 | Wow... and I thought the religion thread was edgy. ;} | |||||
| 48 | nerveclinic Donor ID: 58252201 Tue, May 01, 22:46 |
I absolutely, positively, refuse to get drawn into this ugly cauldron, just as I was not involved in it in our league. I think it is self evident that anyone, who reads the above series of completely absurd and asinine posts, would agree that I have absolutely no reason to explain anything about my actions. I shall do so now, however, because this man has sullied my honor and then I will step out of this muck, rinse myself off, and move on. Let me start by saying I believe that to be the commissioner in a league is the most sacred of duties. You have a power over the league that is an implied trust between all members that you will uphold those duties with extreme fairness and honor. I hold that duty sacrosanct. I don’t think I need to say much more about the posts I erased. They were exactly like those above and at times even more ugly. Virtually all the pertinent ones were between Madman and Spach and by erasing them I was not “protecting” myself or concealing what I had said in any way since I was not involved in the argument at all. Nor was I trying to conceal anything either of them had said. I erased the posts because they had become so ugly, so personal and so ABSURD that they were defecating on the entire “Kharmic health” of our league. I was not trying to censor anyone because the arguments were so preposterous, so childish and so pointless that they did not deserve to occupy the microchips they were imbedded in. If you fall in a sewer and crawl out covered in muck you look for the closest shower. I had a hose and I used it. I hoped by erasing them I would end the argument and give the league a clean slate. If that is so wrong, crucify me. Next, I never barred anyone from the league. Let me repeat that I never barred anyone from the league. That is the most extreme measure a commissioner can take against someone who had placed in him the trust I spoke of above. The only way I would ever outright bar anyone from a league I was commissioner of was if they had willfully dumped all their players to “punish” a league. What I did was temporarily lock your ability to make changes to your line up and to post, after: A) you had benched your players B) Threatened to quit, not just bench your team, if everyone in the league didn’t come to some absurd defense of your position. C) Stated in the posts that you had in fact quit. Not benched players but QUIT. I took you at your word and I called your bluff to make a point. At that point I locked you “temporarily”. (Only after you had stated you had quit) Your rants were becoming so psychotic, so extreme, and so threatening, not just to Madman but to others in the league not even involved in the argument, I honestly thought there was the possibility that in your present state of mind, that you might dump your players. You exhibited an extreme sense of martyrdom and were attempting to draw people in the league into it that, as it turns out, hadn’t even read the posts. I made a decision that was, believe me, not at all easy to make, to protect the integrity of the league against possible harm. I have been in three leagues in the last 12 months where people far less agitated than you, far less, had dumped all their players. Their actions destroyed the league. I am having too much fun in this one, competing with the political posters, to allow that to happen. Would you have gone to such an extreme? Probably not, in fact I honestly thought to myself that you probably wouldn’t do that, but at that moment, and since you had stated you quit, I made a calculated decision to lock the “quitters” team to let things cool off. I never would have stated my concern on these boards had you not forced my hand by questioning my integrity. It would have been simple to flip the switch back on your team when everyone calmed down and there would have been no lasting effect. But that’s not really what you wanted Spach, and I think that anyone who reads the above posts can see the truth in those words. At the same time I did all this I sent you a private email, out of the spotlight light, telling you I regretted your decision and asking you to reconsider. I have yet to receive a reply. Why would I send you a private email asking you to reconsider if I had “barred” you from the league? You failed to mention that fact instead sullying my honor. I assume the email address you have listed on the league page is accurate Finally I have to voice my disgust with your using your handicap to try and make people feel guilty for having challenged you on these boards. You are articulate and well spoken, there is nothing apparent in your posts or language to clue anyone into the fact you are “handicapped” so no matter how true it may be, SHAME ON YOU for using it to try and make people who argue with you feel ashamed. You should be ashamed for using such tactics. Now I am done with this ludicrous mess. Everything I have spoken above is the TRUTH, and spoken without malice and spoken from my heart. I will not be drawn any further into this absurd waste of broadband. My closing thoughts: I had honestly hoped you would reconsider. I truly wished you would calm down, we could all chill and I could flip the switch back on and we could get back to baseball. At this point, I wouldn’t give you a cup of spit on a hot day….SEE YA. | |||||
| 49 | spachalagu ID: 51912417 Tue, May 01, 23:50 |
On yeah, nerveclinic, from the sound of this post, it's you make it obvious just how "neutral" you were... NC: "Next, I never barred anyone from the league. Let me repeat that I never barred anyone from the league... What I did was temporarily lock your ability to make changes to your line up and to post..." Duh. That's all Yahoo allows a commissioner to do. Was I locked out last night? Yes. Was I locked out today? Yes. Am I locked out now? Yes. That's BARRING a player, twerp. NC: "Your rants were becoming so psychotic, so extreme, and so threatening, not just to Madman but to others..." And Madman was utterly sane and under control while he was claiming, among other things, that I had no evidence to prove Grilli was a piece of dirt and a year had passed between 1999 and 2000. Puh-leez. Finally I have to voice my disgust with your using your handicap to try and make people feel guilty for having challenged you on these boards. As I stated in post #23, "Another point, did anyone witness me asking for allowances for anything but me being more likely to mention past life events? Nope. I think there are just some people on this board who bridle at the notion that a disabled guy like me consistently buries them when they attempt to spout off BS. It would be bad enough to be beaten by a healthy person, but to be shown up by a disabled guy is just too much." You really ought to be ashamed of yourself, nerveclinic. All I asked for was to be tolerant if I reminiced a little, and that an incident that happened SIX MONTHS AGO not be brought up again because I had then, and still so now, have trouble reading ONE PARTICULAR QUOTE. It still reads funny after a many attempts going back to read it. You have blown that request into making it look like I was highlighted my disability in almost all my posts and used it to beg for money or something. I haven't mentioned it in months and wouldn't have unless that ONE INCIDENT FROM SIX MONTHS AGO HADN'T BEEN THROWN IN MY FACE YET AGAIN! Now here, we get to the heart of the matter... NC: "I have been in three leagues in the last 12 months where people far less agitated than you, far less, had dumped all their players." No wonder this turned into a mess. You piss people off and let your leagues go to crap on a regular basis. Had I known THIS piece of information, I NEVER would have agreed to allow you to commish our league. This is now FOUR LEAGUES IN TWELVE MONTHS that have blown up around you, nerveclinic. That is far greater inditement of what your personality is in leagues than anything I could say. Every league you touch evidently turns to crap, nerveclinic. NC: "At this point, I wouldn’t give you a cup of spit on a hot day….SEE YA." And what a charming close. This post definitely shows the nerveclinic I got to know. | |||||
| 50 | Baldwin ID: 143573018 Wed, May 02, 01:05 |
Can you remember anyone at all challenging Nerveclinic's job besides yourself? The cup of spit comment...that was really cold...hehe. Most leagues have inactive or irresponsible managers. Holding that against him isn't fair. Should he have felt you wouldn't try and screw up the league when you were threatening that very thing? Try as I might it's hard for me to see what choice you gave him. | |||||
| 51 | spachalagu ID: 51912417 Wed, May 02, 01:12 |
I think I've earned the right to post this here. From the notes at the bottom of the Rotowire.com projected starters page... Chuck Smith (rehab start on 4/29) is expected back on Saturday... UPDATE: AJ Burnett will rejoin the Marlins' rotation on Sunday. Jason Grilli will likely head back to the minors. | |||||
| 52 | spachalagu ID: 51912417 Wed, May 02, 01:49 |
As far as the dropping my team charge, I would never do that. At the very least, I wouldn't do that to PD. I also don't believe in it. And if you don't believe that, I know you'll believe this. Hell would freeze before I handed Pedro to you for free, Baldwin. As you reminded us in a post several days ago, you're at the top of the waiver list. Anyway, make all the claim you want, Baldwin, the proof is in the actions. If I had made all the freakish posts he claims I did, he would have saved them on the message boards and put up links to them to defend himself. Why did he erase the whole board? Because people on the outside [other than the reactionary right regulars] reading through those posts would not have supported your rendition of all this mess. Nerveclinic has now had 4 leagues blow up around them in a year. One or two you could claim it's other people. But 4? Give me a break. He's obviously cancer to a league. With all your claims about me having a only capable of reacting by going nuclear, this is THE ONLY league I've been in that lost a member to lock-out or team dump, and I commished quite a few of those. All the boards were active, all the trades stayed fair, and everyone had fun in the leagues I commished. I have a clean conscience. I'm gonna be able to look at myself in the mirror without any problems [other than bitching about my grey hair] in the morning. This is all in my rear view mirror, now. You guys deserve each other, and my revenge will be knowing that you are all forced to deal with one another for another five months. That is a fate crueler than anything I could generate from a post. | |||||
| 53 | blue hen Leader ID: 27048221 Wed, May 02, 03:44 | I am great. | |||||
| 54 | KevinL Donor ID: 10417811 Wed, May 02, 07:24 | spachalagu, is this the just 2nd league you've quit this spring, or are there more? I know you were, for a short time, an owner in the ex-punks baseball league. | |||||
| 55 | Myboyjack Leader ID: 4443038 Wed, May 02, 07:33 |
KevinL, you're right. I forgot about that. This is Spach's second quit of the year (at least) He went off from that league in some sort of huff over the draft method, IIRC. Really, of very little matter to me, except that he has attempted to crap on nerveclinic in public forum here to try to discourage the Uninformed from participating in league with NC in the future. I, for one, honestly appreciate NC attention and dispatch in heading off a possible disaster for our league and would be honored to be in a league with him (NC) in the furure. So there :) | |||||
| 56 | Baldwin ID: 143573018 Wed, May 02, 09:02 |
But Spach, you did hand me Pedro! There is a movement on the league board to rename your team and the winner gets Pedro. (I did not start this movement) Being it's the Political Guru league I came up with 'The Sore/Losermans I think that should be enuff to get me Pedro don't you think? | |||||
| 57 | deepsnapper Sustainer ID: 32319720 Wed, May 02, 09:29 |
Note to Bush: Blow something UP! I interpreted the "false" as "bad" information. There wasn't a personal attack IMO. I get "false" info from baseball sites every day. That's why I have so many probable pitcher links. D'Oh! I've had 3 leagues go in the crapper because of a team being dumped in the past year. Does that mean I'm a crappy manager? No, I just quit playing in public leagues. 2 of the 3 were Yahoo teams. I don't have a Yahoo public league baseball team this season as a result. Benching your players in protest is fine. I employed that tactic in protest of colluding trades in a public Sandbox league last year. I didn't quit, I kept the team active. I chose not to participate. Benching and saying you've quit is a different story. If you say you quit and bench your players, then you've quit IMO. This will be my only post on this subject. | |||||
| 58 | Perm Dude Donor ID: 28059111 Wed, May 02, 11:10 |
spach, Listen, buddy, this whole thing has clearly gotten everyone pretty worked up. My own preference is that you stay, that we funnel all this energy into our competitiveness as managers, and we settle it on the field. Of course, I'm naive--it's the nature of being a Democrat, I suppose. I don't want you to feel you should try to work through this if, in the end, all you end up is generating a lot of bile. You've certainly got better things to do with your time and energy. Frankly, it doesn't sound like you are going to get the apology you want, and nearly all efforts at communication about this are just not working. You have to decide if you want to continue with it, knowing that they aren't going to provide you with the answers you are looking for. Personally, I hope you stick with the league. You are clearly a smart manager and good judge of baseball talent, even if your posting style rubs people the wrong way. And in the end, being a good manager will get you the respect I think is being asked for here. Just a short note either way is all that's needed. No reason to keep spinning your wheels here. pd | |||||
| 59 | spachalagu ID: 51912417 Wed, May 02, 13:17 | I was recruited AND left the ex-punks league WELL BEFORE spring training ever started because of the method you use to carry out league business. You guys send all your league report and transactions by FAX. I don't have a fax machine. When I was recruited, nobody told me this would be the case. In this day and age, one assumes that all that stuff will happen through the net and e-mail. I also didn't leave on bad terms. I simply informed you guys it was going to be too difficult for me to constantly be running down to Kinko's [as had been suggested] to pick up every league communication. I said that while that may have worked for you far a long time, it caused a hardship on me. I wished you guys well and we went our own ways. | |||||
| 60 | spachalagu ID: 51912417 Wed, May 02, 13:24 |
Baldwin: "But Spach, you did hand me Pedro! There is a movement on the league board to rename your team and the winner gets Pedro." Ah, maybe some of Baldwin's true motivation is showing here. He didn't want a calm league. He wanted my players. Guess what? In the same way that I can't delete that league from my Yahoo Fantasy Sports webpage, y'all can't touch my team roster or the name of the team for that matter. That's the way Yahoo designed the stuff and we're both stuck with it. | |||||
| 61 | Myboyjack Leader ID: 4443038 Wed, May 02, 13:34 |
Spach - Regarding your current team name: Is there some point of reference for it or is it just something off the top of your head? Just curious. Let me just say that it's really offensive to me; but it's your team and obviously you can call it whatever you desire. Anyway, it's pretty easy for me to avoid seeing it if I want. | |||||
| 62 | spachalagu ID: 51912417 Wed, May 02, 13:45 |
So more truth comes out... Now we see three of you [nerveclinic, Baldwin, deepsnapper] have serious problems with people deciding to quit teams in leagues you guys are in. I see a pattern developing here. I think you guys are the ones that have the problem getting along with people. Somehow, that doesn't surprise me. | |||||
| 63 | spachalagu ID: 51912417 Wed, May 02, 13:50 | Team Name: it's original and very funny in a Clive Barker/Goth sort of way. | |||||
| 64 | spachalagu ID: 51912417 Wed, May 02, 13:57 |
Again... There is a huge difference between the words false and incorrect. As the dictionary shows, false implies intent of fabrication. It's not my fault if you guys have a reading comprehension skills below secondary school level. | |||||
| 65 | James K Polk ID: 114581215 Wed, May 02, 15:54 |
I have one thought. Maybe it's welcome, maybe not. I'm not going to parse grammar or definitions here, and frankly I could care less who wins a debate about Jason Grilli. I never saw the original debate, in fact, because I purposely stayed out of this roto league -- I've played them in the past and seen too many people get too upset over something that's supposed to be fun. A game. What I do want to point out is just a basic observation about human nature. Nothing groundbreaking. At some point, if you want to display character that others will respect, you have to rise above those things that you criticize. You're obviously an intelligent and passionate person, spach, but at times you let your emotion get the best of you. Both in your interpretation of people's posts to you, and in your responses to those posts. I'm sure you recognize the futility in demanding an apology when you feel insulted, after you've established a tradition of salting so many of your posts by calling people "idiots," "liars," and so on. Although you just posted that "you guys are the ones that have the problem getting along with people," you followed that up two posts later by implying that people here have "reading comprehension skills below secondary school level." It's hard to engender sympathy for your case, which apparently you had hoped to do at some point, by acting in this way. In this very thread, in fact, you've called the person you want an apology from a "functional illiterate" -- something that, based on Madman's history of research, analysis and commentary on this board and the baseball board, you know to be impossible, and untrue. In the same way that it would untrue for someone to use that term to describe you. But if what you really want is an apology for an insult, why would you insult the person you want it from? Think about it in this way: What would be your response right now if Madman, whom you feel insulted by, were to demand an apology from you. Or if that type of demand came from Baldwin, or Lutefisker, or me, for that matter. Now, what would your response be if Perm Dude said, "Hey man, you slighted me. Don't you think you might owe me an apology?" I fully recognize the likelihood that you'll discount this advice because of the debates we've engaged in in the past. I hope not, because it simply is not meant as an attack. I enjoy your contributions of opinion to the board, even in the times I violently disagree with them. And if you would like to go back through any of our debates, I think you'll find that I've always been careful to distinguish between your arguments and you, the person. I think I've built a solid record of integrity and respect for other people -- I will call arguments "ridiculous" if I think they are, but I will always proceed to explain why I disagree. I take great care in my wording and refuse to make personal attacks based on my disagreement in opinion with a fellow member of these boards. And when I feel close to the point where my comments might begin controlling me, and I would no longer be controlling my comments, I know it's time to walk away for a while. All I am doing here is urging you to do the same. Again, this is not meant as an insult, but, at the risk of sounding schmaltzy, I mean it as heartfelt encouragement. I have used words like these with some of my best friends. There have been situations where I've counseled my wife, whom I adore, in the same way. Just realize what you are doing, and the kind of reputation you are building, when you insult people and then go apopleptic when you feel insulted yourself. Realize that events are not isolated, and the picture of yourself that you create through your words on these boards will go with you into every thread you enter. And realize that not everyone is out to attack you, personally. I suspect that whatever happened in the debate that sparked this whole thing could have been avoided pretty simply. Something like: "Hey, I'm not lying about this information, here's a link to prove it," which is often followed by, "Whoa, I wasn't meaning to say that you were lying, I just meant I think the source is wrong. Here's why ..." I've seen similar scenarios play out so many times on these boards that I've couldn't begin to count them. I guess I'm done now. Didn't mean to go on this long, but like I said before, this is heartfelt, for whatever that's worth. I care very much about these boards, and I like to see them thrive -- both in camaraderie and in debate. I suppose it's impossible to have the debate without people's feelings occasionally getting hurt and emotions hitting the boiling point, but I believe the camaraderie can trump that, and help everyone keep their standards high. Really, it comes down to this: Whether someone insulted you or not, the only person who can maintain your integrity is you. | |||||
| 66 | biliruben Sustainer ID: 3502218 Wed, May 02, 16:26 |
Very well said, Mr. President. Excellent advice for Spach, and for all of us. | |||||
| 67 | Baldwin ID: 143573018 Wed, May 02, 16:33 |
Of course I wasn't out to get your players Spach. I have never even offered you a trade. But you know this. Of course it was a joke that they would give me Pedro for naming your team. Heck I wouldn't have accepted him if they had. It would have been an unfair destabilization of the league. Something some of us care about. | |||||
| 68 | spachalagu ID: 51912417 Wed, May 02, 17:22 |
You want hard proof on the type of stuff that was being said about me on the league message board, hear's something that was just posted by Greenishness... "I see Spach as a loose cannon. He is a bitter and angry man. I did read some of his posts on Rotoguru.com and he hands out insults like candy from his pocket yet he is super sensitive when somebody offers anything negative about himself. I feel NerveClinic did the right thing by finaly shutting him out of our league. I would not have been surprised if Spach eventually tried to sabotage the league. Now he cannot. I liken this man to Ted Kaczynski." Fot those who don't believe me, here's the link to the message board... http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/baseball/show?page=message&msgid=326&lid=21402 Now, I haven't been able to post on that board for a couple of days now. I OBVIOUSLY could not have said anything to greenishness to deserve this. Do you see anything on this thread aimed at greenishness? No. I've never said a word to greenishness. And for that, I get compared to a serial murderer. Will you guys finally believe me now? | |||||
| 69 | spachalagu ID: 51912417 Wed, May 02, 17:27 |
By the way, nerveclinic... If you don't IMMEDIATELY lock out greenishness for the season, you will prove everything I said about your lack of evenhandedness and/or neutrality. Like it or not, The political gurus league is stuck on MY Yahoo fantasy sports webpage for the season. I shouldn't have to deal with that kind of crap being said about me. | |||||
| 70 | greenishness ID: 29428215 Wed, May 02, 17:42 |
Please. Does the term "sense of humor" ring a bell anywhere at all? Please gather yourself. You know my posts are always tounge and cheek. This was a private message between 12 of us and YOU brought this message out for all the internet to read. Most will probably laugh at the post (my intention) but some may take it as seriously as you do. I can't help that. | |||||
| 71 | steve houpt ID: 53340234 Wed, May 02, 17:50 |
Ok spach - what do you want us to believe? I believe 'greenishness' was making an observation and using some humorous phrases that he relates to your actions and behavior. I'm sure he thinks no more of you as a serial killer than you think of me as a pro-genicide [arsenic thread]. But if you think he is serious, then you must be serious, so I demand an immediate apology for that vile, worthless, less than nothing statement you made calling me pro-genicide. If not, it proves positively, without a shadow of a doubt, that you care about no one, at no time, that has ever disagreed with you. A one way person that wants everyone else to be on a two way street. And maybe I should take 'greenishmess' statements serious. :):) Have to laugh right now becasue I hope you can't be serious about ALL of this. Just playing, right. | |||||
| 72 | spachalagu ID: 51912417 Wed, May 02, 18:37 |
Houpt, you are a confederate apologist. You claim to support what it stood for. One of the things it stood for was slavery and genocide. Nazi apologists don't get away with picking and choosing parts of Hitler's regime that ran well and then get to ignore the Holocaust. Nazi imagry reminds us of the whole package. Well, so does Confederate imagry. If you want to be proud of the Confederacy, you get to be "proud" of all of it. If you wish to be seen as anti-genocide, stop wearing the symbols of a goverment that committed genocide. I, on the other hand, have never bragged on this board about how I just bought a cool new T-shirt that displays famous bomb threats. There is no parallel between the two. | |||||
| 73 | spachalagu ID: 51912417 Wed, May 02, 19:17 |
Green: "Does the term "sense of humor" ring a bell anywhere at all?" Ever heard of smileys? These things - :) :-P Those are universally [internet] recogized symbols that a person is joking. Was there one anywhere in your post? No. Then, is there something like a... hehehe in there? No. Without being able to see the facial expression of the speaker, or hear the tone of voice, there is no way to tell if someone is joking or not. If there are none of the symbols similar to the ones I mentioned, the text in question is considered to have been serious in nature. Were you joking when you said, "I feel NerveClinic did the right thing by finaly shutting him out of our league. I would not have been surprised if Spach eventually tried to sabotage the league. Now he cannot." No. Your comment was quite serious. Green: "This was a private message between 12 of us and YOU brought this message out for all the internet to read." That's right. The whole discussion of this thread is based on the way-out-of-bounds insults that were thrown at me by several of you. Insults which your commissioner erased because he didn't want you guys to be judged on the content of what was really said to me. Insults which, granted, were nothing like this one, but which were highly inflammatory. Message board posts are not priviledged communications. E-mail is. Message board posts are public comments, e-mail isn't. There is absolutely nothing wrong with cut n' pasting from one message board to another. Any Yahoo member can go read the guru league message board. I'm only posting here what any Yahoo member can read if they so choose. What you are ticked off about is that you wanted to fling that insult behind MY back where you didn't think I would have a chance to respond to it. Now you are desperate to cover your butt. Guess what? This one can't be covered up, and it won't be deleted in time. You and the rest of your crew will be seen to be the people you really are. | |||||
| 74 | spachalagu ID: 51912417 Wed, May 02, 19:54 |
Greenishness, one more thing... There have been a couple of young people who are getting ready to be tried because they made "jokes" about violent actions in chat rooms recently. As was mentioned previously in another thread, "jokes" about violence around airports aren't considered a laughing matter. "Jokes" about mailbombs and serial mailbombers/murderers like Ted Kaczynski aren't seen as very funny by the Postmaster General, either. I don't think there is anything funny about people that use explosives to terrorize innocent people. If you do think mailbombs are funny, you either need therapy or survaillence. | |||||
| 75 | greenishness ID: 29428215 Wed, May 02, 20:06 |
Spach, You know I've always hated those smiley things but if you say there is a distinct purpose for them I will ackowledge that and use them more often. My thing is that I kinda play the straight man in my own minds comedy act and that smiley thingy throws that act out the window. Looking over my previous post I should have inserted the smiley face after the Ted Kaczynski comment but that would have been the only place. You asked to be out of the league several times, benched your team and you were in last place. I felt you had nothing more to loose and you might be a canidate for sabatoge. I think by posting my comments in here from a private leagues message board you were wrong. I do not mind so much that you saw them, my only regret is that they may have hurt you. I would very much like to be done with this. | |||||
| 76 | Baldwin ID: 143573018 Wed, May 02, 20:09 |
Just a side note. I have noticed a lot of well worded, measured and reasonable posts end in a harsh last minute whack that lacks the sensitive touch the rest of the post reflected. Some quirk of human nature at work there I haven't figured out just yet. I don't think anyone beside Spach would have faulted Greenishness' post besides the last sentence or Nerveclinic's until he got to the cup of warm spit. | |||||
| 77 | greenishness ID: 29428215 Wed, May 02, 20:10 | <-------Trying to leave this alone | |||||
| 78 | spachalagu ID: 51912417 Wed, May 02, 20:10 | It's done. | |||||
| 79 | greenishness ID: 29428215 Wed, May 02, 20:17 | Thanks. | |||||
| 80 | biliruben Sustainer ID: 231045110 Wed, Mar 27, 2002, 00:57 |
In search of Spach! A reminder that this is a game... | |||||
| 81 | Nerveclinic ID: 4111541122 Wed, Mar 27, 2002, 08:32 |
For God's sake Biliburn have you no decency? Have you totally gone mad? Is there no God? Et to Brute? How could you have done this. Oh never mind, it was just a bad dream. | |||||
| 82 | Baldwin ID: 53126128 Wed, Mar 27, 2002, 08:39 |
Ahh don't be so harsh on poor ole Spach. With just a wee bit of self-control he would have been a hoot to have on board. We prolly should have handed his team to a surrogate just for fun. Not that that thot occurred to me back then. | |||||
| 83 | Perm Dude Leader ID: 492502511 Wed, Mar 27, 2002, 10:48 |
Heh heh. I wondered who dug up this old chestnut. Spach, spach, we hardly knew ye. pd | |||||
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