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Subject: Israel, and the Gaza evacuation
Posted by: Tree
- [497251818] Thu, Aug 18, 2005, 22:59
i'm surprised not much has been said about this.
personally, it's breaking my heart. while i believe leaving Gaza is now the right thing to do, i hate seeing Jews fight against Jews.
it pains me to see the settlers throwing acid and other dangerous materials on the soldiers. it pains me to see them raise arms against unarmed soldiers.
i am also deeply concerned for my youngest brother, who is in the israeli army, and stationed on Gaza. he believes strongly that the settlers are right, and has said he would not remove them. for all i know, as we speak, he may be in a military prison for disobeying orders.
this sucks. |
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| 663 | Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sun, Jun 17, 2007, 07:43
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Tree: As much as you and I most likely cannot stand each other on 99% of every thing in life, I think we really only agree on Israel and tattoos. Weird.
Anyway, you're wasting your breath. The anti-Israel and closet anti-Semite portions of society will never change their mind or their positions. Political opinion and maybe even philosophical ones can change over life, but once you involve religion I think a deeper emotion is tapped into.
The best thing Israel can do is to stay out of this one and let Hamas and Fatah blow each other into a million pieces.
How can the world justify a Palestinian state? What have they done to prove themselves worthy?
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| 664 | Perm Dude
ID: 51559177
Sun, Jun 17, 2007, 08:59
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Ditto for the US, eh?
Since when does any country have to "prove themselves worthy?"
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| 665 | Tree
ID: 57551179
Sun, Jun 17, 2007, 10:56
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Since when does any country have to "prove themselves worthy?"
Palestine is not a country. The Palestinians have had more than one opportunity to be granted statehood. on at least two notable occasions, such opportunities were turned down - despite them being 50+ years apart!
And now, that they have some level of autonomy, the in-fighting is killing hundreds (so-far). Why on earth would you grant these people a nation, one that has to deal with other countries in the world, when they can't even deal with each other like rational, human beings.
yes, i realize this goes on in other countries - many of them, in fact. but do we want to START that way? it would only serve to further destablize the region.
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| 666 | Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sun, Jun 17, 2007, 13:13
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Tree, you have family in Israel correct? Why do you believe that there is no Arab leadership to mediate or stop the fighting between Hamas and Fatah?
IMHO, if Germany and France (as an example) had a modern day scuffle I would imagine countries would hop in to mediate and try and resolve the dispute and European leadership (an oxymoronic term if you ask me) and the US would probably help solve it.
Now with the Hamas/Fatah brawl ensuing I haven't read anything about another Arab country wanting to go in there and mediate or offer anything.
I believe the Arab world at large is hoping Hamas does take over because they have the best chance of constantly attacking Israel.
The Conflict Widens?
At least two Katyusha rockets fired from Lebanon landed near the northern Israeli town of Kiryat Shmona on Sunday, police and Israel Defense Forces said.
Lebanese security sources later reported that another rocket fired from Lebanon never made it across the Israeli border and landed near an observation post operated by the U.N. Interim Force in Lebanon.
It seems to me that the strategy here is now to draw Israel into a conflict so that the warring Arab factions can at least agree to disagree and focus on their primary enemy, Israel.
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| 667 | Tree
ID: 57551179
Sun, Jun 17, 2007, 14:30
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Tree, you have family in Israel correct? Why do you believe that there is no Arab leadership to mediate or stop the fighting between Hamas and Fatah?
my youngest brother lives there.
IMHO, Arab leadership has never truly wanted a Palestinians state, nor do they want peace in Gaza or the West Bank.
Peace does not serve the best interests of the leadership. The Arab leadership can point to strife in Gaza and the West Bank, and blame Israel. If there is no strife, there is nothing to blame on Israel.
Palestinian leaders like Arafat got wealthy on the lack of peace. Peace and statehood would have ended their "cause", and they wouldn't have profitted any longer.
Regarding Kiryat Shmona and the rockets landing there. This, to me, isn't even newsworthy. I was last in Israel 21 years ago. We visited Kiryat Shmona, and guess what? Rockets whizzed over our heads.
It's not uncommon for these rockets to be fired, and the world at large sees it as no big deal, so Israel stopped worrying about it, and stopped complaining about it, because it fell on deaf ears.
But because there is other strife going on - strife that really doesn't involve Israel per se - it is suddenly newsworthy.
What is happening in Gaza and the West Bank right now is a Palestinian issue. If they want to continue killing each other, by all means, have a great time. This conflict is very obviously what the Palestinian leadership wants, and it's a damned shame they are killing innocent people, but who are we to step in?
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| 668 | Perm Dude
ID: 51559177
Sun, Jun 17, 2007, 19:22
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I agree that it is a Palestinian issue. As it whether they can be a state or not--it is all up to them.
You can't say the violence is all a "Palestinian issue" while saying "do we want to START that way" (ital mine).
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| 669 | R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Tue, Jun 19, 2007, 23:51
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Hamas began as a terrorist organization. They still might be for all we know. But we never did what we could to make them succeed.
Meh. I'm definitely someone who leans towards diplomacy-first solutions, but asking them to accept Israel's right to exist is hardly an unreasonable precondition. I'm with Tree here; Hamas wasn't even willing to consider moving an inch towards a compromise, and diplomacy requires compromise. I think we can agree that the West offering hundreds of millions of dollars in exchange for removing 'Die Israel' from a charter is a case of Hamas moving an inch while we move a mile... and if they won't even consider that, diplomacy isn't going to get too far.
IMO, Hamas is just retarded. How hard would it be to just say "yah yah, they have the right to exist" and then attack them anyway with Western aid money funding their attacks? I've thought about this for 5 minutes and I've already come up with a better strategy then they have in 5 years. Heh.
Instead they back themselves into a corner in Gaza, a territory that relies on Israel for much of its resources and food. Good move; become dependent on your sworn enemy, while removing what little political influence you had. ????
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| 670 | walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Wed, Jun 20, 2007, 09:41
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June 20, 2007
Op-Ed Contributor
What Hamas Wants
By AHMED YOUSEF
Gaza City
THE events in Gaza over the last few days have been described in the West as a coup. In essence, they have been the opposite. Eighteen months ago, our Hamas Party won the Palestinian parliamentary elections and entered office under Prime Minister Ismail Haniya but never received the handover of real power from Fatah, the losing party. The Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, has now tried to replace the winning Hamas government with one of his own, returning Fatah to power while many of our elected members of Parliament languish in Israeli jails. That is the real coup.
From the day Hamas won the general elections in 2006 it offered Fatah the chance of joining forces and forming a unity government. It tried to engage the international community to explain its platform for peace. It has consistently offered a 10-year cease-fire with the Israelis to try to create an atmosphere of calm in which we resolve our differences. Hamas even adhered to a unilateral cease-fire for 18 months in an effort to normalize the situation on the ground. None of these points appear to have been recognized in the press coverage of the last few days.
Nor has it been evident to many people in the West that the civil unrest in Gaza and the West Bank has been precipitated by the American and Israeli policy of arming elements of the Fatah opposition who want to attack Hamas and force us from office. For 18 months we have tried to find ways to coexist with Fatah, entering into a unity government, even conceding key positions in the cabinet to their and international demands, negotiating up until the last moment to try to provide security for all of our people on the streets of Gaza.
Sadly, it became apparent that not all officials from Fatah were negotiating in good faith. There were attempts on Mr. Haniya’s life last week, and eventually we were forced into trying to take control of a very dangerous situation in order to provide political stability and establish law and order.
The streets of Gaza are now calm for the first time in a very long time. We have begun disarming some of the drug dealers and the armed gangs and we hope to restore a sense of security and safety to the citizens of Gaza. We want to get children back to school, get basic services functioning again, and provide long-term economic gains for our people.
Our stated aim when we won the election was to effect reform, end corruption and bring economic prosperity to our people. Our sole focus is Palestinian rights and good governance. We now hope to create a climate of peace and tranquillity within our community that will pave the way for an end to internal strife and bring about the release of the British journalist Alan Johnston, whose kidnapping in March by non-Hamas members is a stain on the reputation of the Palestinian people.
We reject attempts to divide Palestine into two parts and to pass Hamas off as an extreme and dangerous force. We continue to believe that there is still a chance to establish a long-term truce. But this will not happen unless the international community fully engages with Hamas.
Any further attempts to marginalize us, starve our people into submission or attack us militarily will prove that the United States and Israeli governments are not genuinely interested in seeing an end to the violence. Dispassionate observers over the next few weeks will be able to make up their own minds as to each side’s true intentions.
Ahmed Yousef is the political adviser to Ismail Haniya, who became the Palestinian prime minister last year.
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| 671 | Tree
ID: 29082512
Wed, Jun 20, 2007, 10:14
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Sadly, it became apparent that not all officials from Fatah were negotiating in good faith.
i do so enjoy someone from Hamas talking about "negotiating in good faith."
We reject attempts to divide Palestine into two parts and to pass Hamas off as an extreme and dangerous force.
i do so enjoy child-killers and mass murderers denying that they are "an extreme and dangerous force."
Any further attempts to marginalize us, starve our people into submission or attack us militarily will prove that the United States and Israeli governments are not genuinely interested in seeing an end to the violence.
i do so enjoy an organization that refuses to put down their weapons or even remotely recognize the country beside them that has existed for 60 years, talking about someone else marginalizing them.
that rant from Yousef is the epitome of how delusional most of Hamas is.
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| 672 | walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Wed, Jun 20, 2007, 12:21
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June 20, 2007
Op-Ed Columnist
Behind the Masks
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
Every war has THE picture that captures its essence, and the Palestinian civil war in Gaza is no exception. My nominee would be the photograph of a Hamas fighter in Gaza, lounging in a senior Fatah official’s office over which he has just taken control. The masked Hamas fighter in jeans is relaxing in an ornate chair, holding a rifle in one hand and speaking — through the opening in his mask — on a telephone in the other. It has the weird feel of a Gap ad for Halloween.
In his essay on this page yesterday, Fouad Ajami described the two sides of the Palestinian civil war as “the masked men of Fatah” and “masked men of Hamas.” Indeed, the fact that masks were worn by the fighters on both sides is one of the unique things about this civil war — and it raises, for me, two questions. First, why were both the Hamas and Fatah fighters wearing ski masks? And two, where do you buy a ski mask in Gaza?
Oscar Wilde said: “Give a man a mask and he’ll tell you the truth.” So what truth does it tell us when fighters on both sides in this civil war (and in Iraq’s) are wearing masks?
The first answer is habit. Hamas fighters always wore masks when confronting Israel, so that Israel could not identify them for retribution. On June 16, though, Reuters quoted a Hamas spokesman as saying masks should not be worn in the intra-Palestinian war. “Wearing masks should only be near the borders and in fighting the Zionist enemy, not in the streets and near people’s homes,” said Khaled Abu Hilal.
But certain habits, especially bad ones, die hard — and they can end up warping your own society as much as your enemy’s. You can see what’s happened here: If it’s O.K. to wear masks when confronting the Jews, it eventually becomes O.K. to wear masks when confronting other Palestinians. If it becomes O.K. to use suicide bombers against the Jews, it eventually becomes O.K. to use suicide bombers against other Muslims. What goes around comes around.
Beyond old habits, though, there is also some new shame. These masks are worn by fighters who not only wish to shield themselves from Israel’s gaze, but also from the gaze of their parents, friends and neighbors.
After generations of Arabs highlighting the justice and nobility of the Palestinian struggle for statehood, there was surely an element of shame that Palestinian brothers were killing brothers, throwing each other off rooftops, dragging each other from hospital beds and generally ripping apart Palestinian society in a naked power struggle. There was nothing noble about this fight, which is why, I would guess, many wanted to wear masks. The mask both protects you against shame and liberates you to kill your brothers — and their children.
Putting on a mask is also a way to gain power and enhance masculinity. People in black masks are always more frightening — not only physically, but because their sheer anonymity suggests that they answer to no one and no laws. In our society, it’s usually only burglars, rapists or Ku Klux Klansmen who wear masks — either to terrorize others or make it easier to break the law. The mask literally says: “I don’t play by the rules. Be afraid, be very afraid.”
Think of how relieved you’d be to be captured in war by someone in a uniform and how frightened you’d be to be captured by someone in a mask. But given the breakdown in society we see in Iraq, Lebanon and the Palestinian areas, that may be a luxury. Wars against masked men and gangs — whose true identities, agendas, rules and aspirations are never clear — will be the norm.
“These masks are the uniforms of the new armies of the 21st century and the new kind of violence,” which in Iraq, Lebanon and Gaza “no longer distinguishes between war against the stranger and war against members of your own society,” argued political theorist Yaron Ezrahi. “Just as this new violence doesn’t have a front, it doesn’t have a face. It doesn’t have boundaries.”
That is why these masks announce one more thing: These young men do not report to anyone above them. They have no ranks. No leader can ever be sure of their allegiance. Every masked man is a general, and every militia is a cross between a self-funded criminal gang and a modern army.
Get used to it. In today’s environment, where the big divide is between the world of order and the world of disorder, you can expect to see a lot more confrontations between armies in uniforms and helmets and armies in blue jeans and masks.
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| 673 | Tree
ID: 29082512
Wed, Jun 20, 2007, 13:19
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very interesting piece by Friedman. the line that struck me the most was when he said After generations of Arabs highlighting the justice and nobility of the Palestinian struggle for statehood, there was surely an element of shame that Palestinian brothers were killing brothers, throwing each other off rooftops, dragging each other from hospital beds and generally ripping apart Palestinian society in a naked power struggle.
it reminds me of how i felt when Rabin was assassinated, and again, when the settlers resisted and were being forceably removed.
it was Jew against Jew, and we as a people had survived by sticking together, not by battling each other.
But even then, it didn't go to the level that this palestinian-on-palestinian violence has gone, and in such a short time.
maybe the rest of the world will finally see what kind of people these are - the kind of people who have no respect or concern for rules, laws, or even human life.
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| 674 | Perm Dude
ID: 0537208
Wed, Jun 20, 2007, 13:33
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Ha! And I suppose you hope the rest of the world doesn't look back on Rabin's assassination as a sign of what kind of people Israelis are?
Good luck with that. Express (at best) embarrassment at Jewish attrocity while you sweep it aside, and hammer at Palestinians as being exemplified by the worst actions of the worst of them.
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| 675 | Tree
ID: 545332018
Wed, Jun 20, 2007, 20:25
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Ha! And I suppose you hope the rest of the world doesn't look back on Rabin's assassination as a sign of what kind of people Israelis are?
you're totally mischaracterizing what i said. what i felt over Rabin's death was not embarassment. i felt revulsion, sadness, anger, and desperation. i honestly believed it was the beginning of the end for Israel.
the difference is that Jews have rarely killed other Jews in modern times. and, they've also rarely targeting civilians of any kind.
the Palestinians, on the other hand, have often killed each other, although not usually at this rate. and, they've always targeting civilians.
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| 676 | Perm Dude
ID: 0537208
Wed, Jun 20, 2007, 21:05
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Actually, they didn't always--in fact, it is a relatively recent thing that civilians were targetted. In the past it was always military targets. This isn't to excuse what they are doing. Only to correct your mischaracterization.
Of course, you believe them to be sub-human so my typing is a waste here.
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| 677 | Mötley Crüe
Dude
ID: 439372011
Wed, Jun 20, 2007, 21:42
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No more subhuman than the Serbs who committed genocide, or the Sudanese militias doing so as we speak.
And I suppose you hope the rest of the world doesn't look back on Rabin's assassination as a sign of what kind of people Israelis are? Well, Sirhan Sirhan and John Hinckley don't represent Americans, do they?
Barbarism is not an ambiguous line. We all see it when someone crosses that line. One of the easiest examples to spot is the sustained, brutal killing methods used by fundamentalist Muslims (hacking off people's heads, stoning them to death) and the Palestinians that have recently begun tossing each other from rooftops have certainly joined the club (if they hadn't already with the recent suicide bombing trend).
Please, PD, don't pretend you don't comprehend this difference between civilization and barbarism. American Presidents have been assassinated. I don't think comparing those acts, nor the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, with what the Palestinians have been doing to each other lately is proper or accurate. By definition extremism should be limited. But for some reason, the barbarism is not limited--in certain places.
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| 678 | Perm Dude
ID: 0537208
Wed, Jun 20, 2007, 21:44
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I'm not condoning what was done. Merely saying that, to characterize all Palestinians is simply wrong.
Unless you believe that all Palestinians are barbaric? Perhaps you are. I dunno what I would do, if held under the same conditions as those in Gaza or the West Bank. It isn't like they have a lot of options anymore.
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| 679 | Mötley Crüe
Dude
ID: 439372011
Wed, Jun 20, 2007, 22:02
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How about shooting a guy rather than throwing him off a f*cking building?
You become a barbarian when you forsake your morales.
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| 680 | Mötley Crüe
Dude
ID: 439372011
Wed, Jun 20, 2007, 22:15
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Crap, spelled morals wrong.
I don't think any race of people is any better or worse or that much different than any other. There's a Palestinian doctor rotting in jail in Libya right now falsely accused of infecting 400 children with AIDS as part of a conspiracy. He went there to help those people and the megalomanical dictator has used this doctor as a scapegoat. That's a martyr, and a civilized human being: that doctor.
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| 681 | Perm Dude
ID: 0537208
Wed, Jun 20, 2007, 22:25
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Absolutely.
And if there is any group of people who needed the US to come in with 1000000 troops, to take over the entire system of government and root out all traces of former "leadership" I'd certainly put the Palestinians in my top 3.
The "leaders" of this people have thrown away countless opportunities for peace. And efforts to get the leaders to change have made the people suffer more and more, giving them few social or economic options. It is a vicious cycle, with innocent Israelis and Palestinians caught in the middle.
But we need to put the blame where it should be.
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| 682 | wilmer McLean
ID: 295231922
Thu, Jun 21, 2007, 04:30
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RE: 286, 287, 289, 607 and 608.
ALERT: Tree may be absent for some time in July.
Israel targets US lad mag market
Israel has decided to reach out to young US men by publishing images of semi-clad female former soldiers in US men's magazine, Maxim.
...
According to AP, the photo spread will include pictures of Israeli model Nivit Bash - who served in Israeli military intelligence - and former Miss Israel, Gal Gadot.
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| 683 | Tree
ID: 32515216
Thu, Jun 21, 2007, 07:24
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Actually, they didn't always--in fact, it is a relatively recent thing that civilians were targetted. In the past it was always military targets.
absolutely incorrect PD.
you can go back more than 35 years - hardly recent - to Palestinians killing Israeli and Jewish civilians - to one of the more infamous events, the Black September murders of 11 Israeli athletes at the 1972 Olympics in Munich.
that same year, a Japanese terrorist group tied to Palestinian terror groups, launched an attack within the Tel Aviv airport, killing 25 and wounding more than 100.
Israel has been around 59 years. for 36 of those years, she has been subjected to her citizens being attacked by terrorists. it is neither recent, nor rare.
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| 684 | Perm Dude
ID: 39525218
Thu, Jun 21, 2007, 09:25
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Sure, sure. Kill them all, then. Make sure to squeeze the population first, giving even common and otherwise peaceful Palestinians harsh living conditions and no options for peace.
Then watch as young Palestinians, with no other futures, start blowing themselves up, taking innocent Israelis with them.
Good plan, tree. It's working!
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| 685 | Tree
ID: 29082512
Thu, Jun 21, 2007, 10:48
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Sure, sure. Kill them all, then. Make sure to squeeze the population first, giving even common and otherwise peaceful Palestinians harsh living conditions and no options for peace.
i'm not advocating killing them all. i don't believe i said such a thing.
the conditions are their own doing. They have had opportunity for statehood, for international recongition, for world-wide aid. but at least twice, they have turned down that opportunity.
and is is hardly israel that is giving them no options for peace. that, again, falls on the leadership of the Palestinians (and refers back to my post 667), who have demonstrated time and time again a complete lack of true desire for peace.
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| 686 | walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Thu, Jun 21, 2007, 13:58
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June 20, 2007
Op-Ed Columnist
Why Are We Surprised?
By ROGER COHEN
International Herald Tribune
NEW YORK
With all the sudden talk of a "West Bank first" strategy, embracing the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, and consigning Hamas-dominated Gaza to the dogs, it is easy enough to forget that we are just over two years down the road from a "Gaza first" approach that had the Bush Administration excited.
To reacquaint myself with this reality, I contacted James Wolfensohn, the former World Bank president who, in April of 2005, was appointed by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice as Special Envoy for Gaza Disengagement.
It was critical, Rice said at the time, to "seize the moment" of Israeli withdrawal from Gaza because "we have an opportunity right now to help Israelis and Palestinians build trust with one another and achieve the peace and security they both desire."
Fine words that proved as consequential as yesterday's newspapers. Wolfensohn, a seasoned negotiator, tried. He tried to the point of raising almost $15 million - including $10 million from a single American donor - to acquire greenhouses Israeli settlers were abandoning in the summer of 2005.
"We even gave them the greenhouses!" is now a refrain from the Israeli government in arguing that the "test case" of Gaza has failed, leading not to the democratic embryo of a Palestinian state but to a nest of Hamas-led terror.
The refrain overlooks Wolfensohn's role and the cash paid. More important, it overlooks the fact that the greenhouses looked set to become a profitable Gaza industry before Israel shut the border and the produce rotted.
"Once it was clear the business was viable, threats stopped and the community took tremendous pride in growing flowers, fruits and vegetables for export to Israel," Wolfensohn told me.
"The absolute tragedy was that within months of the commencement of that activity, issues of security at the border, some proven, some not, led to the border being sealed and everything getting wasted," he added.
"There is one inevitable truth in the Middle East: Unless you provide economic activity to young people who are 70 percent of the population, you will have conflict. They will shoot the people they blame and in the end they will shoot each other."
Of course, Hamas rose in Gaza. It won the election in early 2006 that the West had called for. That was problematic. Hamas has been deemed a terrorist organization by the United States and European Union. It has rejected calls to recognize Israel, forswear all violence and accept previous Israeli-Palestinian accords.
But "seizing the moment," as Rice said, involves risk. It is inconceivable without some sort of good-faith engagement. There was no way that Gaza, a slither of impoverished territory crammed with 1.3 million Palestinians, driven into the ground by corrupt Fatah governance, was going to show Swiss moderation in its first election.
To believe otherwise is to inhabit an imaginary Middle East - a transnational Green Zone - and it is not in a world of the imagination that anything is going to get solved. Hamas, right now, represents a very large number of Palestinians, like it or not. "West Bank first" will not change that.
Wolfensohn, no dreamer, said: "I can only tell you that the Israeli closing of the Gaza borders was made with less consideration of the impact than needed. Aside from the military analysis, you have to consider the impact on a society, because social dislocation leads to anger and violence."
After a year in the job, marginalized, he slipped away. "The view on the American and Israeli side was that you could not trust the Palestinians, and the result was not to build more economic activity, but to build more barriers," Wolfensohn said. "And I personally did not think that was the way forward."
Nor do I. "Gaza first" imploded because Gaza was cut off. Intra-Palestinian mayhem ensued. Hamas has terrorist elements. But it remains more a Palestinian national than a global jihadist movement. There are members of Hamas with whom dialogue is possible. To make peace you have to get the enemy to the table.
American and European money is now being rushed to Abbas and his emergency government in the West Bank. President George W. Bush, meeting this week with Prime Minister Ehud Olmert of Israel, called Abbas the "president of all the Palestinians."
What independent Palestinian state Abbas could ever one day govern is another matter. Unless the real world is addressed, "Gaza first" and now "West Bank first" will one day give way to "Ramallah first" as putative Palestine perishes.
"This has been a terrible example for me of hope being turned into real tragedy," Wolfensohn said.
Email: rocohen@nytimes.com
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| 687 | Tree
ID: 29082512
Thu, Jun 21, 2007, 15:34
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Aside from the military analysis, you have to consider the impact on a society, because social dislocation leads to anger and violence."
uh, no you don't. not after decades and decades of the same nonsense.
the Palestinians won't disarm themselves. that leaves it up to Israel. and if sealing the border keeps armed Palestinians out of Israel, so be it.
The few Palestinians who might be wishing to cause harm to Israel, are the ones who muck it up for th rest.
i feel pretty comfortable in stating that if Mexicans or Canadians starting coming into our country over open borders and killing US Citizens, very few people in this country would have a problem with puting walls up on our borders. heck, nothing even close to that happens now, but some people still want walled borders.
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| 688 | Perm Dude
ID: 39525218
Thu, Jun 21, 2007, 15:39
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Great--that would certainly fix the problem, won't it?
When you remove all options toward peace, you shouldn't be surprised that you get war.
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| 689 | boikin
ID: 59831214
Thu, Jun 21, 2007, 15:40
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Actaully tree there documented cases of mexican gangs coming accross the border killing ammericans and committing crimes...
I think that editorial said it all:
"There is one inevitable truth in the Middle East: Unless you provide economic activity to young people who are 70 percent of the population, you will have conflict. They will shoot the people they blame and in the end they will shoot each other."
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| 690 | Tree
ID: 29082512
Thu, Jun 21, 2007, 15:50
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Great--that would certainly fix the problem, won't it?
When you remove all options toward peace, you shouldn't be surprised that you get war.
there are two things that would go a long ways toward fixing the problem - Palestinian leadership discouraging, not encouraging attacks on Israel; and Palestinian leadership recognizing Israel.
Palestinians removed the options toward peace for their own people, because, the leaders do not want peace.
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| 691 | boikin
ID: 59831214
Thu, Jun 21, 2007, 16:01
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This may be a dumb question, but is it really that important to get them to say we reconize isreal. whether or not they say it is not going to change its exsistnance and honestly it sounds a bit childish on everyones part for careing so much about a few words.
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| 692 | Tree
ID: 305412117
Thu, Jun 21, 2007, 18:42
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This may be a dumb question, but is it really that important to get them to say we reconize isreal.
yes.
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| 693 | Myboyjack
ID: 8216923
Thu, Jun 21, 2007, 18:59
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When you remove all options toward peace, you shouldn't be surprised that you get war
Are you referring to Hamas which refuses to recognize the right of Israel to exist or Israel which refuses to to just die like good Jews.
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| 694 | WiddleAvi
ID: 25102616
Thu, Jun 21, 2007, 19:28
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boiken - This may be a dumb question, but is it really that important to get them to say we reconize isreal. whether or not they say it is not going to change its exsistnance and honestly it sounds a bit childish on everyones part for careing so much about a few words.
All the more to question why is it so hard for them to say?
All Hamas has to say is that we recognize Israel's right to exist. Is that too much to ask for as a starting point to negotiating peace ?
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| 695 | Mötley Crüe
Dude
ID: 439372011
Thu, Jun 21, 2007, 19:41
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We're talking about people that would just as soon kill their neighbors by throwing them off the top of buildings as let a party they oppose run their government.
I don't think the usual standards of rational behavior apply to the Palestinian 'leadership'.
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| 696 | R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Fri, Jun 22, 2007, 04:42
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"There is one inevitable truth in the Middle East: Unless you provide economic activity to young people who are 70 percent of the population, you will have conflict. They will shoot the people they blame and in the end they will shoot each other."
Without a doubt the greatest truth in this thread. (And this is a long thread.) If people don't have something worth living for, they won't be too interested in living. We have jobs, which lead to prosperity for our families and friends. They have no jobs, which leads to misery for their families and friends.
Who gives a rats ass who's fault it is that Gaza is a hellhole? Any solution that doesn't start with an economic plan will fail. The young boy tired of being hungry and bored isn't going to two sh!ts about international political maneuvers. He just wants a life. Barring that, he'll take his anger out on others. Is that so surprising? We see the same thing from disillusioned teens here in North America, or disillusioned teens in France, or disillusioned natives in Canada and Australia, etc.
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| 697 | boikin
ID: 59831214
Fri, Jun 22, 2007, 10:12
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This may be a dumb question, but is it really that important to get them to say we reconize isreal.
yes. i was hoping to get an answer to why it is important not just that it is. I can understand why they want to here it and it seems pretty stupid not just say we reconize isreal and and to lie as not reconize them and still not accept it. the whole place reminds me of middle school.
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| 698 | Tree
ID: 34101915
Fri, Jun 22, 2007, 11:52
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Any solution that doesn't start with an economic plan will fail.
oh, no doubt. but who should provide this economic plan, and then offer financial aid once a plan is conceived?
certainly not Israel - after all, to the Palestinian leadership she doesn't exist, and if you don't exist, you can't help.
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| 699 | Tree
ID: 29082512
Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 15:11
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Israel announces mass prisoner release
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| 700 | nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Mon, Jul 02, 2007, 03:50
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Tree...
I don't have much time to post but two examples this week of how wrong you are about your perceptions in terms of Israel always getting bad press.
Israel raided the Gaza strip killing 12 people including 2 civilians one a 12 year old boy. The front page of the newspaper here showed a young Palestinian girl with blood pouring down her face due to wounds from Israeli tank shells.
Then I went to US web sites. Drudge didn't even mention the military action. The NY Times had it as a very minor sub-line to a bigger headline about the ongoing situation between Fatah and Hamas. You had to really dig to find it.
Second you complain that Lebanon gets a "pass". You are right because the current government is backed by the USA.
Yesterday, here, there was a big article about the alleged atrocities being committed by the Lebanon government in their recent military actions. The article also mentions they are a USA approved government...that's why you aren't seeing much criticism. The current government is keeping Syrian influence in check thus the USA turns a blind eye to atrocities. It is in no way an "anti" Israel position in that the Syrian influences in Lebanon would be even more "anti Israel".
You are overly sensitive and you don't seem to understand all the dynamics involved.
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| 701 | Tree
ID: 4062325
Mon, Jul 02, 2007, 06:41
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Yesterday, here, there was a big article about the alleged atrocities being committed by the Lebanon government in their recent military actions. The article also mentions they are a USA approved government...that's why you aren't seeing much criticism.
that whole argument doesn't fly, because Israel is a USA-approved government, yet there is criticism every time she is involved in some sort of military action - be it from the media, or from the U.N., who wants to condemn her every time someone in Israel takes a leak.
in recent weeks, Israel has released prisoners and transferred nearly 120 million dollars to Abbas' government. Israel is doing her part, but as long as Hamas' remains a force, and the rest of the world turns a blind eye, accomplishments towards peace will be limited.
and you're damned straight i'm sensitive - you try living next door to a people who have no regard for human life, and are constantly trying to kill members of your family for no other reason than breathing.
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| 702 | Perm Dude
ID: 2164428
Mon, Jul 02, 2007, 09:55
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There you go again...
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| 703 | nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Mon, Jul 02, 2007, 11:00
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Tree USA-approved government, yet there is criticism every time she
is involved in some sort of military action - be it from the media,
or from the U.N., who wants to condemn her every time
someone in Israel takes a leak.
Uh I just pointed out that Israel killed a 10 year old a few days
ago and I could barely find it mentioned in the US press...so
much for that theory.
you're damned straight i'm sensitive - you try living next
door to a people who have no regard for human life, and are
constantly trying to kill members of your family for no other
reason than breathing.
A very simplified explanation of the situation that ignores the
fact that 10X the number of Arabs have been killed by Israel
then Israelis killed by Arabs.
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| 704 | Tree
ID: 3533298
Mon, Jul 02, 2007, 11:32
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Uh I just pointed out that Israel killed a 10 year old a few days
ago and I could barely find it mentioned in the US press...so
much for that theory.
the media is a little more pre-occupied with a 7 year old killed in Georgia at this moment. from NPR to Fox News, the murder of Daniel Benoit is more newsworthy to them then a death half a world away, where death happens every day.
A very simplified explanation of the situation that ignores the
fact that 10X the number of Arabs have been killed by Israel
then Israelis killed by Arabs.
call it want you want. Israel doesn't target civilians. Hamas makes it a point, and brags about, targeting civilians.
Israel doesn't celebrate the death of a 10-year-old Palestinian child, but the Palestinians sure rock the house when an Israeli baby is killed.
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| 705 | nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Mon, Jul 02, 2007, 17:18
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call it want you want. Israel doesn't target civilians
That statement is laughable. It's like saying the USA doesn't either.
When you bomb to the degree that the US and Israel due it's a forgone conclusion you are going to kill lots of civilians.
It's also not a fair comparison given the fact that the US and Israel have the military capability to appear to be avoiding civilians.
Their opposition doesn't have the luxury, the same arsenal or the propaganda tools.
In both cases many civilians are dieing. Killed by Israelis and the USA, that's the bottom line on a human level.
I am not taking the opposing side, I'm just illustrating how one sided your view point is.
You are really brain washed.
Israel has killed many civilians...targeted or not (as you claim). I wouldn't bet my last dollar on that. It's hard to tell with the US Israel propaganda machine.
When you are firing tanks into neighborhoods, you know you are killing civilians.
Hezbollah kidnapped a couple Israeli soldiers and Israel destroyed billions of dollars of Lebanese infrastructure and many, many people. The country is devastated from it.
Again I am not taking either side, I am just trying to counter your absurdly one sided propaganda.
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| 706 | Tree
ID: 3533298
Mon, Jul 02, 2007, 17:22
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That statement is laughable. It's like saying the USA doesn't either.
that statement is legitimate. you can argue it anyway you want, but the bottom line is that Israel does not target civilians. i realize that you and the rest of the anti-Israel crowd wants to believe that they do, in order to help yourselves feel better that you support terrorists, but it's simply not true...
Their opposition doesn't have the luxury, the same arsenal or the propaganda tools.
Their opposition could simply choose to put down their arms and recognize Israel's right to exist. but, they won't.
and if Israel had half the propaganda machine the Palestinians had, otherwise peaceful people like yourself wouldn't be supporting the terrorists.
Hezbollah kidnapped a couple Israeli soldiers and Israel destroyed billions of dollars of Lebanese infrastructure and many, many people. The country is devastated from it.
absolutely. Hezbollah should never have kidnapped those soldiers. Israel ultimately screwed up in an effort to not have a ground war, but Hezbollah is to blame.
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| 707 | Perm Dude
ID: 2164428
Mon, Jul 02, 2007, 17:24
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Uh, as is Israel. You can't say that Isreal screwed up and then blame it entirely on someone else.
Both parties are responsible for their own actions.
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| 708 | nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Mon, Jul 02, 2007, 17:48
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but the bottom line is that Israel does not target civilians.
No that's the propaganda line. Just because they don't get on buses with backpack explosives doesn't mean that indiscriminately using tanks in heavily populated civilian areas isn't "targeting civilians." Opps sorry
i realize that you and the rest of the anti-Israel crowd wants to believe that they do, in order to help yourselves feel better that you support terrorists, but it's simply not true...
That's way out of line and brain washed and emotional and typical Tree.
I don't support terrorists.
I don't support Israel.
I don't support the USA.
I don't support the Islamist fascists.
I don't support people with back pack bombs.
I don't support war.
I am a registered conscientious objector to war.
I DO NOT SUPPORT TERRORISTS.
You are so far out of line Tree...but what else is new???
Both sides are F'ed.
You just read what you want to read Mr Brain Wash.
There's plenty of blame to go around on every side, you just choose to ignore the Israeli blood stained hands because it hits so close to home.
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| 709 | Tree
ID: 26651217
Mon, Jul 02, 2007, 18:55
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but the bottom line is that Israel does not target civilians.
No that's the propaganda line. Just because they don't get on buses with backpack explosives doesn't mean that indiscriminately using tanks in heavily populated civilian areas isn't "targeting civilians." Opps sorry
no, the propaganda is that Israel targets civilians, and that's why i believe you support the Palestinian terrorist movement.
if you believe that line of crap, then you're supporting them by basically saying "well, it's ok what you're doing, because Israel does it too."
you may not think you're doing so, but by accepting their rhetoric, you are basically giving them carte blanche.
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| 710 | nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 01:36
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you may not think you're doing so, but by accepting their
rhetoric, you are basically giving them carte blanche.
Insert the word Israel above and I can same exactly the same for
you. Fortunately there are many Israelis who understand what I
am saying and feel the same way.
Sadly you are willing to support violent actions on this issue
while you chastise merchants of war in virtually every other
situation.
But the fact is I don't accept either sides rhetoric Tree, it's you
who are saying I do. I've said ad nauseam both sides are wrong.
It's you who has to paint people into corners and claim they are
supporting positions they are not to justify your own stance.
I'm simply unwilling to allow you to come on here and argue it's
a black and white issue with only one side at fault and only one
side in the wrong. That's all Tree. You have to turn that into
support for terrorists because you don't know how to counter it
any other way.
Both sides are wrong Tree and I am not justifying the actions of
either...period.
I came on to give examples of how Israel was given a pass last
week by the US press and how Lebanon was being called out for
her actions in non US press and you managed to turn the
arguement back around once again to "my supporting terrorists"
Playing the race card I see. Pretty pathetic.
I'm just going to let it go now because no one takes these type
of tactics of yours seriously at this point anyway and it's
impossible to have an unemotional, intellectual debate on this
subject with you.
This should be the point where you start raveing and screaming
and lashing out at how unfair I'm treating you...
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| 711 | Toral
ID: 575542418
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 02:08
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I'm wondering something here. What I say shouldn't be considered as an accusation, just wondering....
Hasn't nerveclinic made it clear enough yet? When he talks about "international conspiracies" he means "the Jewish international conspiracy".
He's not blunt about it, because he knows that, unlike his other pretend fears, this fear is real. If he started talking about "the Jewish international conspiracy" instead of vague conspiracies, he would be in immediate danger of being targeted by Jewish organizations and losing his job. Jewish/Zionist organizations do regularly target proponents of Jewish conspiracy theories -- even unimportant people-- and take their jobs and reputations. Just as, as Voltaire pointed out, the English Navy, whether there was trouble or not, often picked out, court-martialled and executed a captain or higher officer, even an admiral -- pour encourager les autres.
Toral
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| 712 | Tree
ID: 3533298
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 09:04
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I'm simply unwilling to allow you to come on here and argue it's
a black and white issue with only one side at fault and only one
side in the wrong. That's all Tree. You have to turn that into
support for terrorists because you don't know how to counter it
any other way.
it's not black and white?
let's reverse the roles:
The Palestines make numerous overtures toward peace with Israel.
They offer up parts of their land in an effort to gain peace. They even remove their own citizens - in a move that could potentially divide your nation into a near-civil war - and still, nothing from Israel.
The Israelis, instead, say "you have no right to exist. you are not worthy of a nation, and you are certainly not worthy of the air we breathe. you should all die!"
and then, the Israelis send suicide bombers into Palestinian areas repeatedly to kill mothers and babies, they kidnap Palestinian soldiers and civilians and hold them indefinitely, and basically, have a wanton disregard for common decency.
because that's exactly what the Palestinians are doing. and you are absolutely condoning it.
I came on to give examples of how Israel was given a pass last
week by the US press and how Lebanon was being called out for
her actions in non US press and you managed to turn the
arguement back around once again to "my supporting terrorists"
Playing the race card I see.
and i told you why i felt the US Press didn't pay attention. one death a million miles away in a world where people seems to constantly be dying won't get coverage when there is a "sensational" child murder in our own country, committed by a relative superstar.
The Chris Benoit story may not be getting play where you're living, but it's dominated the front page here for a week.
and i'm hardly playing the race card. i didn't call you a Jew-hater. i just said that by believing the Palestinian rhetoric, you are supporting their cause.
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