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0 Subject: Finally Mexican Immigrant problem is addressed

Posted by: Greg W
- [161127811] Wed, Jan 14, 2004, 22:40

I don't agree totally with Bush's plan, but atleast it is a start. Illegal immigrants should be treated like lawbreakers, serve time and be deported. This is an esculating problem that has been completely ignored in fear of angering the new largest minority (over the blacks) in the U.S.

Fence off the borders and let the military patrol it. I am tired of criminals getting special treatment!
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131Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Tue, May 29, 2007, 21:14
The interests of the pro-immigration business elites in protecting illegal immigration aren't often openly revealed, but New York Mayor Bloomberg expressed them in a moment of candor recently:
New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg says golf fairways would suffer if illegal immigrants were returned to their native country.
"You and I are beneficiaries of these jobs," Bloomberg told his WABC-AM radio co-host, John Gambling. "You and I both play golf; who takes care of the greens and the fairways in your golf course?"
Toral
132Mötley Crüe
      Dude
      ID: 439372011
      Tue, May 29, 2007, 21:34
From the Borjas Blog Toral linked:

Few Canadians would be surprised to learn that immigrants pull down the wages of the domestic workers whom they challenge for jobs. This has been the law of supply and demand since humans first scrabbled to make a living. What is surprising...is that immigrants in Canada have narrowed the gap between the country's highest-paid workers and lowest-paid workers, reducing income inequality. In the United States, it's the opposite: The presence of immigrants increases the gap between the rich and the poor. The contrast underlines the differences between the U.S. and Canadian approaches to immigrant selection....Good immigration policies should not foster the creation of large pools of low-skilled workers who compete ferociously with each other and drive down wages.

Perhaps Canadians ought to consider their proximity to countries with feeble economies. Seems to me that's a bigger part of the equation than good immigration policies.

I mean, realistically, how can a country be highly successful scouring a 2,000 mile long border, on the other side of which people are literally willing to die to get across?

I don't see many stories about human smugglers crossing the remote Ontario borderlines driving truckloads of emaciated and dehydrated illegal aliens.

This doesn't seem like such a difficult concept to me. More like common sense.

Canadians don't have a big problem with illegal immigration not because of their spectacular legislation and the efficiency of the Mounties, but because they are literally thousands of miles away from the nearest third world country.

Maybe one day we can be awesome, too. You know--we ask the construction workers to stay out and only let the engineers and doctors in. But I guess we better work on some improved policy, otherwise we'll never get there.
133Mötley Crüe
      Dude
      ID: 439372011
      Tue, May 29, 2007, 21:50
There's an undeniable undercurrent of racism in the push for immigration reform.

I wonder how much more civil this whole debate would be if the people trying to illegally cross our southern border were Caucasians that spoke English.

My guess is that we'd be concentrating on much more important things, of which there are plenty.

The NIMBY mentality is simply much too easy and satisfying to embrace.
134Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Tue, May 29, 2007, 22:05
I wonder how much more civil this whole debate would be if the people trying to illegally cross our southern border were Caucasians that spoke English



If the reaction to Scottish immigrants in the 18th century or Irish immigration in the 19th and 20th century is any indication, not much difference at all...and they weren't even "illegal" whatever that term means when applied to people trying to put food in their babies' bellies. The East Coast anglo-saxon elite have been pretty consistent through the centuries in making life difficult for any new group.

I think the "racism" claim is overplayed, generally.
135Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Tue, May 29, 2007, 22:26
I wonder how much more civil this whole debate would be if the people trying to illegally cross our southern border were Caucasians that spoke English

First I think you have to separate the race and language parts of the equation. There are good (IMO) reasons to oppose immigration of huge numbers of people who do not speak the majority language. The educational costs imposed can be tremendous. And in every area of social interaction, people naturally prefer that the other people around them are people with whom they can communicate.

But as to race, someone posted just today (but I can't remember where I saw it) a hypothetical on some web site imagining what the reaction would be if the Bering Strait was still a land bridge and 12 million or so (white) Russian immigrants crossed into Alaska and made their way to the U.S., mostly the northwest United States, with the same effects of wage depression and fewer labour opportunities for the working classes, with entire small neighbourhoods and communities becoming 80-95% Russian, effectively forcing the natives out; with cities like Portland and Seattle becoming majority Russian-speaking. We need to imagine the immigrants as having the same low educational status and social demographic characteristics as the Mexican immigrants.

Everyone gets to guess for himself. But I don't think the response would be significantly different just because the invaders were whites.

Toral
136Mötley Crüe
      Dude
      ID: 439372011
      Tue, May 29, 2007, 22:48
In response to [134], I think it's possible things are different now, a full 100 years later. This is a country that the inhabitants consider to be mostly 'white'.

I personally don't think an influx of white English speakers would cause much of an uproar. Perhaps we'll just disagree on that, MBJ.

And in response to your post, Toral, I'm not willing to separate the race and language elements. My hypothetical was purposefully constructed in that way. Sure, people are uncomfortable when they can't understand what others are saying. But when those others also have a different color skin, and a different texture hair, things really get tense.

Besides, if there really was a Russian invasion, they would all stop in British Columbia, no? Since, you know, wages are better and all.
137Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Tue, May 29, 2007, 22:57
I don't understand the combination of posts 133 and 136. You say that you won't separate race and language concerns, and then seem to do so.

I guess my question is: if people did object to a tidal wave of white non-English-speaking immigration, would that be part of what you describe as an "an undeniable undercurrent of racism" or not? If the answer is "no", we agree. If the answer is "yes", I believe that it is both nonsensical, and one of the most objectionable contributions imaginable to that incivility of debate that you claim to deplore.

Toral
138Perm Dude
      ID: 1240299
      Tue, May 29, 2007, 23:13
People who object to immigrants will seize on whatever makes them "different." Just because that difference wasn't racial in the past doesn't mean it isn't now.
139ukula
      ID: 309521021
      Tue, May 29, 2007, 23:14
DFTT
140Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Tue, May 29, 2007, 23:25
People who object to immigrants will seize on whatever makes them "different."

So the source of objection is cultural then, not racist? I agree. Public debate would be improved if people understood your point.

Just because that difference wasn't racial in the past doesn't mean it isn't now.

But if your former point is correct, that the objection is to a racial difference is not very serious or important -- since people would object to them anyway even if they were of the same race, as you just said.

Toral
141Perm Dude
      ID: 1240299
      Tue, May 29, 2007, 23:36
So the source of objection is cultural then, not racist?

No, that's not what I said, Toral. I said "whatever makes them different."

It might be their religion (Irish Catholics). It might be their race (Chinese). It might be their perceived social class.

Many (not all, by a long shot) of those who object to immigrants don't really need much depth to try to lay hooks into people. They are just playing off the fact that these newcomers are not like those already here, and they don't need to even have much in the way of facts to try to make it stick. MBJ's example of the Irish is a good one--many nativists at the time thought the Irish wouldn't make good citizens because they were Papists.
142Mötley Crüe
      Dude
      ID: 439372011
      Wed, May 30, 2007, 07:57
Toral [137]: I don't understand the combination of posts 133 and 136. You say that you won't separate race and language concerns, and then seem to do so.

Please review [132] if you are unclear about why I claimed any Russian immigrants crossing the Bering Strait would simply set up shop in Canada. My comment at the end of [136] was sarcasm.

I guess my question is: if people did object to a tidal wave of white non-English-speaking immigration, would that be part of what you describe as an "an undeniable undercurrent of racism" or not?

We're not experiencing such a phenomenon. As PD pointed out, there is a tendency to latch onto differences for the sake of decrying immigration, legal or otherwise. If the immigrants are white, then it certainly wouldn't be characterized as racism.

Racism simply is evident. Anecdotes are instructive in this case. It has never been difficult to find it if you simply look. Sh!t, Toral, we have racism against 4th and 5th generation minorities here in America. You can easily recognize that there's not an impediment to racist sentiment toward Latinos who enter the USA, considering it's applied to our own citizens.

that incivility of debate that you claim to deplore.

I claimed no such thing. I do find the racist undertones that obviously exist to be deplorable. The incivility of debate is something I've grown to accept. Racists are irrational; what's a little incivility to top it off?

I'm not calling people in favor of strong immigration reform racists. I am not accusing anyone in this forum of anything. The racism of which I'm speaking is a tool that I see employed in many instances by radical or fanatical anti-immigrationists--white, black, or otherwise. It's out there.
143Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Wed, May 30, 2007, 11:06
I am curious if Mexicans here in this country legally, who do not like illegal immigration, and the Mexicans waiting in Mexico to enter legally, are racist for hating illegal immigration?
144Perm Dude
      ID: 42426309
      Wed, May 30, 2007, 11:44
Who is saying they are?
145biliruben
      ID: 52014814
      Wed, May 30, 2007, 12:06
Huh?

Just to be clear, I don't like the immigration reform as proposed.

A guest worker program is just a license by business to take advantage of a vulnerable population, the limits on legal immigration are way too low, and charging $5000 to document is just inanely ass-backwards.
146Perm Dude
      ID: 42426309
      Wed, May 30, 2007, 12:48
Absolutely. And citizenship needs to be the goal of any immigration reform.
147boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Wed, May 30, 2007, 13:10
In response to 135 and 136 it would be interesting to hear from someone from Vancouver. being they recently faced a large influx of chinease imamagrants after Hong Kong was turned back over too the chinease.

I am not totally convinced that it truly is racist thing going on. i think racism is used to help unify the fight but it is not the root cause. And most immigration waves face this, if the the new immigrants spread out evenly over the whole nation they would be absorbed into the culture and things would hardly be noticed, but this is not what happens they enter the country through similar gates, ports, borders... and the have tendacy to stick together, pretty much the natural reaction to being in a new place. the natural tendacy to group leads to racism in several ways first off it lessens the the need to learn the primary laugage, it slows the process of intergration, and it has polarizating effect on comunities. I am not trying to say there are not pure racist out there, but that process of large scale immigration brings this on...reguardless of race. And if you doubt this you can look at immigration of americans from one part of the country to the other, they have faced the same kind of hatred and fear that non-english, non-american cultrual, people have faced.
148Doug
      ID: 113132214
      Wed, May 30, 2007, 18:04
IMHO, the post linked in #127 has lots of fancy looking formulas and all, but seems to have some significant deficiencies, not the least of which is failure to even remotely consider the impact that PPP has on his numbers, which seems a pretty basic flaw. It's like comparing the US Federal Budget today with the Federal Budget in 1970 and only looking at nominal dollars. I realize the post is intended somewhat for it's comic value, but it certainly presents itself with a degree of validity greater than what I fell it actually possesses.

> There's an undeniable undercurrent of racism in the push for immigration reform.

I think that depends what you mean by immigration reform. Currently I hear that as a catch phrase for "some sort of amnesty program", in which case I'd think anyone motivated by racism would be opposing rather than pushing for it.

> I wonder how much more civil this whole debate would be if the people trying to illegally cross our southern border were Caucasians that spoke English.

Well, for the most part, the debate has been civil IMHO. A few scattered incidents here and there to be sure, but in general I've not seen a wave of name-calling, violence, or other uncivil behaviors over this issue.

I think there are various factors about "the immigrant" that will shape how a "native US citzen" will feel about their immigration... race is one of them. I think willingness to learn/speak English and assimilate (to a reasonable degree) into American culture are a bigger issue for most people than race alone. Another big factor is the socio-economic class of those coming into our country. Another is the magnitude in numbers of the immigrants (as a collective) coming from a certain source. And of course there is the issue of whether they are following legal means of immigrating and paying taxes and so forth, before they reap various social program benefits.

If Canada were to suffer a major economic depression and there were hundreds of thousands of Candians immigrating illegally into the USA every year for year, after year, after year, after year, not paying taxes but receiving healthcare/education, their kids receiving automatic citizenship simply because of the location where their mother happened to be when she went into labor, and a significant number of those immigrants (not necessarily a majority, but a vocal minority) wanted to only speak French rather than English, and flew Canadian flags at amnesty rallies, then yeah, you'd see a bunch of pissed off US citizens griping about the illegal immigration issue, just like you do today.

> I'm not calling people in favor of strong immigration reform racists. I am not accusing anyone in this forum of anything. The racism of which I'm speaking is a tool that I see employed in many instances by radical or fanatical anti-immigrationists--white, black, or otherwise. It's out there.

I agree with that and appreciate the clarification because it's far more sensical IMHO than what your previous post seemed to imply. Yes, there are people who are motivated primarily by racism and who use it to try and advance their agenda and they are deplorable people for it. There is a much larger percentage of people (self included) who may be on some subconscious level affected by some sort of racial or cultural bias, but that doesn't mean it's the primary or "real" motivator behind all the other perfectly legitimate factors to consider in this issue. I think for most people, or I hope at least, a rational analysis of the larger economic and legal/philosophical issues is what's shaping their opinions.

Besides, in my experience, most "anti-immigrationists", as you put it, are mislabeled. They're actually "anti-illegal-immigrationists". They're often FOR increasing funding to facilitate a greater number of legal immigrants entering our country, even if those immigrants are coming from *gasp* Mexico. ;)

The frustration (which I share) is that rather than say "the immigration system is not functioning adequately, let's beef it up and fix it", many people seem to be saying "the immigration system is not functioning adequately, so f*ck it, anything goes... if you got here illegally good for you we're gonna make you a citizen and cut in line ahead of all those poor sops trying to follow the rules still stuck back at home". I'm grossly oversimplifying obviously, but that's the feeling people like myself have.

I want there to be MORE legal immigration. I also want their to be LESS illegal immigration, AND I want it to come in the form of cracking down on the employers moreso than cracking down on the immigrants (the immigrant isn't blameless, he/she has broken the law, but is typically motivated by "seeking a better life for self and even moreso family left behind", whereas the employer is typically breaking the law because he's motivated by greed, and we should be harsher in our penalty of that behavior (IMHO). And I want the process to be fair. I don't want people to be rewarded for breaking the law. They should still get to legally immigrate, but they should have to move to the back of the line behind those people who've been waiting patiently for many years to come here. The process for this isn't easy. I don't have all the answers, and I know they aren't simple ones. I certailny don't think "mass deportation" is a good solution. But I don't think allowing lawbreakers to circumvent ahead of those abiding by policy should be allowed.
149sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Wed, May 30, 2007, 19:10
President Bush used equally harsh language to assail his critics. "If you want to kill the bill, if you don't want to do what's right for America, you can pick one little aspect out of it. You can use it to frighten people,'' Bush said. [emphasis added]

Is this clown serious? Or is he saying this because its what he's done for 7 years and he knows it works?

(copy/pasted from the link below)

Anger over immigration plan surprises GOP Senators
150Perm Dude
      ID: 42426309
      Wed, May 30, 2007, 19:13
I love how many Republicans are taken aback with how Bush attacks those with whom he disagrees. Welcome to life as a Democrat, where you are "insincere" if you don't agree with the Administraton.
151Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sun, Jun 03, 2007, 19:38
I'm not sure if this deserves it's own thread or not, but it fits the Mexican immigration issue so I'll ask it here. This was a neighborhood discussion I had the other day and I'm curious what you guys think.

Should the United States enact mandatory military service, similar to Israel, for people 18-24 that lasts no longer than six months in duration where they serve in the National Guard and can only be stationed on either the Canadian or Mexican borders?

Don't make it complicated by saying that "Well Bush would just send them to Iraq.". Just take the question as it's worded.
152Tree
      ID: 1354315
      Sun, Jun 03, 2007, 21:04
No.
153Perm Dude
      ID: 475440
      Mon, Jun 04, 2007, 01:05
No.
154Doug
      ID: 441251914
      Tue, Jun 05, 2007, 12:04
No.
155biliruben
      ID: 52014814
      Tue, Jun 05, 2007, 12:19
That's the dumbest idea I've ever heard. I like it! Start a war with Mexico and Canada through belligerent posturing and all our problems will be solved.
156Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Tue, Jun 05, 2007, 12:30
Boxman, what's your answer to your own question?
157Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Tue, Jun 05, 2007, 12:31
It's racist to block their path to the voting booth. Haven't you heard?
158biliruben
      ID: 52014814
      Tue, Jun 05, 2007, 13:24
Uh huh. We should have a standing, involuntary army on our borders to prevent voter fraud. That's a brilliant use of tax money, the lives of our youth, and what little diplomatic capital remains.

Any other bright ideas?

A giant umbrella in outer space to prevent global warming perhaps?

Nuke the projects to lower the crime rate?

Chastity belts for our youth, only to be removed at after a proper Christian marriage?
159Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Tue, Jun 05, 2007, 13:39
It's racist to block their path to the voting booth. Haven't you heard?

so Baldwin, what's YOUR answer to Boxman's question - Should the United States enact mandatory military service, similar to Israel, for people 18-24 that lasts no longer than six months in duration where they serve in the National Guard and can only be stationed on either the Canadian or Mexican borders?
160sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Tue, Jun 05, 2007, 14:20
No.

6 months? They wouldnt even complete training in order to be stationed anywhere. Besides, putting 20k ill-trained and ill-equipped personnel on the borders, could only lead to disaster.
161Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Tue, Jun 05, 2007, 15:15
Boxman, what's your answer to your own question?

I was waiting for more answers from you guys before giving my answer.

The neighbors and I (about 1/2 a dozen of us) had a pow wow at the fence the other night just talking about stuff. The idea got brought up because we were talking about the border.

I still prefer harsh illegal immigration laws and am very much in favor of having the future citizen fill out the paperwork beforehand in his home country. This way they can come here legally from the get go and be protected by our laws.

This would amount to a peacetime draft, since these would not be combat posts in the traditional sense. That concept I cannot endorse. It would be hard for me to endorse a war time draft let alone this.
162Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Tue, Jun 05, 2007, 16:15
so Baldwin, what's YOUR answer to Boxman's question - Tree

If you don't know my solution to every problem then you haven't been listening for years.
163biliruben
      ID: 52014814
      Tue, Jun 05, 2007, 16:17
Uh...

...hang all them hippies from the highest tree?

No, no.

Elect God supreme ruler?

Ahh...
164Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Tue, Jun 05, 2007, 16:18
so Baldwin, you're not going to answer?

because that is YOUR solution, to EVERY problem...
165sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Tue, Jun 05, 2007, 16:20
lol bili...

I had typed and then not posted:

1) Endorse republican candidates blindly
2) Let God sort 'em out
166Tree
      ID: 57551179
      Sun, Jun 17, 2007, 23:10
dude has a hispanic last name, so he must be an illegal...

really, it's only a matter of time before more and more cases like this, as racists and xenophobes rush to rid the country of those with skin darker than theirs...
167Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Mon, Jun 18, 2007, 20:06
There are legions of examples I could post here showing the intensity and ferocity of conservatives' disgust and anger of and at President Bush on the immigration issue (and I make a point of always trying to refer to him as "President Bush" for the same reason Tom Landry and Mike Ditka wore suit jackets on the field.). I particularly liked the quote from this column by Froma Harrop, on President Bush's legacy and future:
One recalls the famous line in the movie "Touch of Evil," when Orson Welles, a corrupt U.S. cop, asks Marlene Dietrich, a fortune-telling madam in Tijuana, to read his future. "You haven't got any," she says ominously. "Your future is all used up."
Toral
168Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Mon, Jun 18, 2007, 20:21
And Froma's conclusion:
There are worse things than the status quo. Bush has shown time and again that he knows how to create them. Now, if he would only just go away.
Toral

169Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Mon, Jun 18, 2007, 20:48
really, it's only a matter of time before more and more cases like this, as racists and xenophobes rush to rid the country of those with skin darker than theirs...

You must think that of everyone who isn't for open borders don't you?
170sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Mon, Jun 18, 2007, 21:13
what "open borders" questions Box? This is/was a US citizen, mentally disabled, born in this country...deported after signbing a "voluntary" form. WTF does deporting a US citizen, have to do with your "open borders" comment?!?!?!?!?



(gonna give you a hint....not a gddm thing!)
171Toral
      ID: 575542418
      Fri, Jun 29, 2007, 20:18
I don't know if non-conservatives are aware of it, but neo-cons are generally pro-immigration (including turning a blind eye to illegal immigration).

Many negative comments will be written on President Bush's failure to shove the amnesty bill down Republican throats. So far, the definitive one is, I think, by credentialed neo-con John Podhoretz, a supporter of liberal immigration:

June 29, 2007 -- PRESIDENT Bush's disastrous second term has not been without its moments. Unfortunately for him, these moments have come primarily when members of his own party have risen up against him to defy his wishes.
That's what happened yesterday. For the second time in four weeks, Republicans in the Senate put a stake through the heart of Bush's beloved but politically catastrophic immigration bill.

It's also what happened in the early months of the second term, when Bush chose to nominate his unqualified aide, Harriet Miers, to the Supreme Court - and finally backed down and had her withdraw her name after three weeks of lobbying and complaining.

It happened, too, when our clever Democratic senator, Chuck Schumer, stirred up a frenzy last year about the sale of various American ports to a company owned by the emir of Dubai. Bush stoutly defended the deal, which was dead in the water the minute Schumer began his campaign against it, until finally Bush was forced to back down by members of his own party.

He would not and could not back down on immigration reform, an issue far too close to his heart. But after the Senate first rejected the bill at the end of May, Bush could have left it alone and accepted defeat.

He could have seen reason, as he did in January 2004 when he first proposed a piece of legislation and was met with an uprising from his conservative base - whereupon he prudently dropped the subject because he was running for re-election and needed a united and enthusiastic Republican electorate behind him.

But he miscalculated, as he has done so often since his re-election. He chose to believe polls that said Americans generally support the nice ideas in the bill rather than the polls that showed Americans disliked the actual bill as written and described.

And perhaps most interesting, Bush chose to believe it was more important to court potential future Republican voters - those illegals who would have gained a "path to citizenship" under the terms of the bill in 13 years' time - rather than listen to the concerns of present-day Republican voters.

Those concerns were entirely justified. I write as someone out of step with my fellow conservatives on the issue, as someone with a very liberal view of immigration, including illegal immigration. And yet the more I read about the bill, the more it was clear to me it was an unholy mess and that the nation would be far better off without it.

Neither the president nor any of the bill's supporters was able to make a convincing argument that illegal immigration would be "reformed" in any way. The bill was a classic case of a supposed fix that would only make things worse. It would have levied significant penalties on those who chose to play by the rules without punishing those who remained outside the boundaries in any credible way.

And the bill's opponents made a very strong case that its passage would only lead to an even greater human flood across the border - a case no one on the pro-bill side ever even bothered to address substantively.

On those previous occasions when President Bush was saved from his own counterproductive impulses by a revolt within his own party, his defeat was actually a benefit to him. The Miers withdrawal led to the brilliant appointment of Samuel Alito to the Supreme Court. And an American company now owns and manages American ports.

But the parlous decision to revive the dead immigration bill and fight for it, only to see it go down to defeat again, was an act of political suicide from which this White House will not recover. On the domestic side, Bush will now only govern until the end of his term in an entirely defensive manner - through the veto and not by being a party to the passage of legislation.

In his first term, Bush had been a party leader and vote-getter so gifted that he single-handedly improved the GOP's standing in the House and Senate in two successive elections and received 21 percent more votes in his re-election bid than he had in his maiden effort.

The failure to secure victory in Iraq is the key to understanding the administration's second-term woes, but that isn't the whole story. Something got broken on Election Night 2004.

172Tree
      ID: 42644125
      Thu, Jul 12, 2007, 07:25
is this REALLY what's happening???

Victor Toro, an illegal immigrant from Chile, has been in the United States for more than 20 years, but last Friday, border patrol officers arrested him – along with other illegal immigrants – during a spot check on an Amtrak train from Rochester as he headed back home to the Bronx.

"They gathered us all and they made us get naked and put us in these orange jump suits," said Victor Toro through a translator.


if the U.S. sends Toro back to Chile, he'll quite possibly be killed, due to political activism. is this really what we're about, as a nation???

if so, then America truly has lost her way, and Emma Lazarus is crying in her grave.
173Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Thu, Jul 12, 2007, 07:36
He says he fears if he goes back to Chile, he could be killed, even though the dictatorship is gone.

"These are killers,” said Toro through a translator. “They are people who organized acts of terror against us and they are still around."


I wonder how Toro proposes we keep the "killers" who "organized acts of terror against us" out of the United States and away from him without enforcing immigration laws. Sounds like he may have had a great case for political asylum, wonder why he never pressed it.
174Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Thu, Jul 12, 2007, 08:53
I wonder how Toro proposes we keep the "killers" who "organized acts of terror against us" out of the United States and away from him without enforcing immigration laws. Sounds like he may have had a great case for political asylum, wonder why he never pressed it.

if i were an illegal, especially now and the climate in this country towards immigrants from certain segments of the population, i'd not make it public, and i'd choose to stay as far underground as possible.
175sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Thu, Jul 12, 2007, 08:59
and 15 yrs ago?
176Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Thu, Jul 12, 2007, 10:27
there has long been a fear among many immigrants who flee a country - particularly due to persecution by their native government - about government in general.

imagine - you've been imprisoned and tortured by your government. you flee to another nation where you don't speak the language. i think you might be a bit afraid...
177Tree
      ID: 566231220
      Thu, Jul 12, 2007, 21:32
More migrants die as U.S. tightens border security

or Iraq policy kills Americans and Iraqis, and our immigration policy kills Mexicans.

it's the multi-national trifecta!
178Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Fri, Aug 03, 2007, 12:45
great, heart-warming story. hopefully these kids - who are American in all ways except for a sheet of paper - will be allowed to stay.

Juan, 18, and Alex, 19, were toddlers when their Colombian parents brought them on a visit to the U.S. in 1990. Despite having only a six-month visa, the family did not return to their war-torn country and remained in Florida. They started a modest business, sidestepping federal immigration authorities for almost two decades. The boys, meanwhile, grew up as Americans and excelled at school — especially Juan, who mastered 15 advanced-placement courses at Miami's Killian Senior High School and almost aced the SAT before graduating this past spring.

sending these kids back to Columbia would be contrary to everything the United States is supposed to stand for.
179Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Fri, Aug 03, 2007, 14:35
re#177

Wanna bet most of those who approve of these methods consider themselves pro-life?
180sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Aug 03, 2007, 14:37
Only 'pro-life' as it pertains to the unborn. Once born, they can hardly wait to gas you.
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