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0 Subject: How Seriously Has the Constitution Been Eroded?

Posted by: Baldwin
- [4261155] Tue, Nov 27, 2001, 12:39

How far are 'anti-terrorism' measures moving us beyond what we thot the constitution protected us from?

For a long time now I have been troubled by by own failure to really dig into the details of both Clinton's and Bush's 'anti-terrorism' legislation and see just how these have eroded constitutional protections.

I am particularly concerned about habeus corpus rule changes under Clinton, asset seizures and now a growing list of measures that do not require a court's supervision or government disclosure of what has been done. I am hoping the kind of rigorous dectectives we have at this site will help me overcome this oversight.

An administration official told The Washington Post "The U.S. Constitution doesn't protect anyone hiding and planning acts of violence." But what he meant was, "The U.S. Constitution doesn't protect anyone we suspect of hiding and planning acts of violence." They don't know who's actually guilty until after a civil, public trial – conducted with all the traditional rules of evidence. What they have arrogated to themselves is the power to decide whether or not you will be protected by the Constitution.
1Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 381021414
      Tue, Nov 27, 2001, 12:53
There are certainly a number of attacks on traditional protections; Bush's attempts to conduct military trials on some suspects, as well as SCOTUS' relaxing of traditional seizure rules are two that come to mind. A real key to the present circumstances is how long these new procedures are to be kept in place. There's no limit in mind for this "war on terrorism" so I'm afraid that we have a legitimate concern with regard to how long these things are to be in place.

pd
2Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Tue, Nov 27, 2001, 13:12
Slightly off center of the topic I notice I can now buy iris identity software for my own computer security. Can it be far behind that when you are stopped the police will scan your eye to bring up your data and doesn't this make obsolete the idea of a national identity card which has long been the fear of constitution defenders?
3Madman
      ID: 68361122
      Wed, Nov 28, 2001, 00:13
I haven't heard anyone be able to articulate why Bush's attempts to conduct military trials is anything other than traditional. Someone want to give it a try?
4Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Wed, Nov 28, 2001, 11:34
To begin with the problem with 'anti-terrorism' legislation is that one never knows just how loose the government will define 'anti-terrorism' in order to circumvent civil liberties protections. Is Greenpeace a terrorist org.? Are those protesting the war in Afghanistan supporting terrorism? Chuck Schummers actually proposed a bill in the Senate that would make discussing conspiracy theories on the internet and elsewhere a serious crime.

So then here is one discussion on an aspect of the bill regarding FISA. FISA basically destroyed the fourth amendment anytime national security is invoked. It passed originally but just barely and with the following concession - the government agreed to judicial supervision and provisions to minimize the interception of non-germane information. Most important, it was agreed that the government would not use the FISA procedures if its investigators were conducting a criminal inquiry but would switch to the usual criminal procedures.

All in all, what is so troubling about the bill? Basically, it breaks down the distinction between foreign-intelligence investigations and criminal investigations by permitting--indeed, encouraging--the sharing of information between intelligence investigations and criminal ones. It also vastly expands the power of the government to gather information in an intelligence investigation and then proceed under the veil of intelligence even if the primary purpose is to gather information for a criminal investigation.


In order to understand why this is a problem, one must understand the origins of FISA, legislation that authorizes the government to conduct investigations that invade areas protected by the Fourth Amendment (which prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures) without the normal probable-cause requirements. FISA originated in a request from the Ford administration for authority to conduct electronic surveillance for national-security purposes. The government explained that it needed to gather foreign-intelligence information even when no crime was suspected, and was unwilling to provide after-the-fact notice to a subject that it had conducted a surveillance.


Congress debated long and hard about FISA. It passed legislation that was substantially different from the original draft, which had been hiddented with the usual demand that it be enacted immediately, without changes. In the end, Congress and the administration struck a deal that had the support of some civil libertarians, including me (at the time, I spoke for the ACLU on these issues).


The basic compromise was this: Congress gave the executive branch the authority to conduct electronic surveillance for national-security purposes under a lesser standard than the probable cause that it would need to gather evidence of a crime. Equally important, the government was given permission to keep the surveillance secret. In return law enforcers agreed to judicial supervision and provisions to minimize the interception of non-germane information. Most important, it was agreed that the government would not use the FISA procedures if its investigators were conducting a criminal inquiry but would switch to the usual criminal procedures. The agreement also included a set of definitions that prevented the government from conducting intelligence investigations of Americans unless there is a relatively tight nexus to criminal activity, and it provided a high barrier to the dissemination of information about these subjects. Subsequently, in 1994 Congress broadened FISA to include physical searches even against the homes of Americans without a warrant, without advance knock or notice, and without ever informing the individual that the government surreptitiously acquired information from his or her home.


It is from this perspective that the proposed amendments to FISA must be examined. The most disturbing provision in the administration bill is the one permitting the government to initiate a FISA surveillance even when the investigation's primary purpose is to gather evidence for a criminal prosecution. As noted, FISA granted special surveillance authority for times when the government was gathering foreign intelligence rather than seeking to indict individuals for crimes. To now permit these procedures to be used in a criminal investigation would almost certainly be unconstitutional and would certainly be dangerous, because it would allow the government to avoid all of the safeguards that the Fourth Amendment and existing criminal law provide. The executive branch will be able to use FISA to conduct surveillance whenever it alleges that the targets were agents of a foreign power, thus circumventing the notice and probable-cause requirements of the Fourth Amendment. In situations not covered by the Fourth Amendment, the government could use FISA procedures to compel disclosure of business records, telephone logs, and other sensitive information, including details about people that it does not suspect of being agents of a foreign power.


And this

Most alarming to supporters of democratic principles was the way the bill was enacted: the absence of public hearings, of any markup in the Senate (coupled with the sham markup conducted in the House), of meaningful floor debate, of committee reports that explain the bill, and of a real conference between the two houses.

5Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Wed, Nov 28, 2001, 11:42
And this discussion of the anti-terrorism bill.

Warrants can be issued in secret, and you may not be allowed to see a warrant – or contest it – covering a search of your property.

Government officials can go into any company anywhere and search records of your purchases and credit history, discover the websites you've visited, or monitor your e-mail – without evidence of a crime and without telling you, and they can order the companies not to tell you about the search.

because anyone can be suspected of being a terrorist – including you. In fact, the new definition of "suspected terrorist" includes people speaking out against government policies.

And if law-enforcement officials are to decide whose civil liberties will be denied, one of them may become convinced you're connected to the terrorists in some way, try you in a secret court, sentence you, imprison you and even execute you – with no opportunity for you to appeal the verdict or your sentence.

6Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Wed, Nov 28, 2001, 12:11
Because terrorists use encryption...well...the FBI is gonna hafta bug yer computer.

"Under a new initiative called Cyber Knights, the FBI has launched into the business of creating "Trojans" – a particular type of computer virus – to infect computers. Yes, that's correct, the FBI, wants to infect your computer with a virus. Launch a program from an infected e-mail, and the FBI will have a record of every keystroke you make on your machine. They call it their "Magic Lantern." "

Helpful anti-virus protection companies have already agreed not to protect you.
7Khahan
      ID: 12432113
      Wed, Nov 28, 2001, 12:59
Just to take the devil's advocate side of things here. The constitution and laws made since then have had the flexibility to be adapted to new technologies. Protection from unwarranted search and seizures has been extended to phone taps for example.
What if the reverse is true, also? What if we need the ability to 'unadapt' certain interpretations of the Constitution based on new advances.
Certainly for the terrorists, their schemes are becoming more advanced. Their cells are becoming more advanced and more difficult to track. At times, we may need to re-interpret the application of some our laws to compensate for the other side finding and exploiting holes in those laws.
I guess the question is, exactly what is going too far in over turning or reinterpreting our rights and liberties?
8Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 381021414
      Wed, Nov 28, 2001, 13:23
I think that's a very good question, Khahan, and certainly it's reasonable that the government would want to use all means to predict, capture, and convict criminals.

Generally, the question against government intrusion has been whether there is a reasonable expectation of privacy, which Baldwin points out has been eroded. If, for example, people start expecting that anything on their computers is being read by the government, we lose the privacy of our own computers.

Frankly, I thought we crossed the line some time ago with "hate crime" legislation, in which racial thoughts are punished, but that's just my opinion.

In a society in which civil liberties are not the by-product of democracy but rather ensures that democracy exists because civil liberties are guaranteed, the questions cannot stop at "can this be used in a nefarious way?" but also must include "Does this represent an unreasonable intrusion into privacy without the balance of the very narrow interests of a particular criminal investigation?"

I'm not an advocate of the "slippery slope" argument, since I believe there can continue to be efforts at the expansion of privacy which embrace new technologies. But it's troubling that the introduction of new technologies seems to be an excuse by government law enforcement officials to prevent privacy from extending into those realms. And these particular times seem to be more suited for a government "privacy grab" in the interests of national security, a catch-all phrase which has more often been used to beat back efforts at traditional civil liberties protections than a recognition that democracy springs from freedom, not the other way around.

I'm not belittling efforts to protect our safety, as we cannot be free when we are under attack physically. But these times bring out very grunty law-enforement types, who not only feel called upon to "do their job" but to pick away at or even ignore protections put into place to ensure that the country retains the qualities which make it worth protecting.

pd
9Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Wed, Nov 28, 2001, 15:12
I think any time a bill is railroaded thru without review as this one was you can garantee it is a bad bill. We know for sure this was not a response to terrorism but rather a laundry-list of questionable requests already drawn up pre-9/11 that had been shelved until everyone's guard was down because they knew this stuff would not normally pass. We could hope this would be revisited in less heated times but will we ever leave this 'state of war' we are in against terrorism?

Another issue I hope we get into is executive orders. If they are unconstitutional can they be anulled in court? Are they constitutional in the first place since they are basically laws made outside the legislative branch? Whatever happened to media watchdogs on this issue?
10Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 381021414
      Wed, Nov 28, 2001, 15:42
Executive orders are dictates by the head of the executive branch, indicating certain actions to be done by that branch only. Generally it involves the implementation of policy, clarification of procedures, etc. Most are really, really, boring.

Presidents are given a lot of latitude in their Executive Orders because they are meant to be an indication of how the Executive Branch should proceed on policies and that kind of stuff. It's the President's job, after all, to run the Executive Branch, which emcompasses the vast majority of the government.

They can only be overturned when they clearly step into the other branch's areas. You have to understand, though, that the President is free to interpret how laws are carried out through EOs, which does not conflict directly with the judiciary. Also, the President has discretionary funds to carry out many EOs that otherwise might not be funded by the Congress. The President may pursue, for example, cases of monopolistic practices in business when another administration might not. He might order (as Clinton did) that agencies order their yearly supplies as early in their fiscal year as possible to pump money into the economy.

pd
11steve houpt
      ID: 281057247
      Wed, Nov 28, 2001, 15:53
Maybe it was a good laundry list that no one in Congress or the people of the USA took serious or cared about before 9/11 because they were too busy worrying about who really won the 2000 election, positioning for mid term elections, getting ready for the 2004 elections, fighting over SS lock box, Gary Condit, tax cuts, school vouchers, McCain-Feingold bill (2 months wasted on that) and who knows what else. Grading a pop quiz is another important issue.

There have been numerous reports on terrorism. No one took those as serious as we should have either. Do now. Does not make that wish list bad.

Same thing. Members of Congress have tried to bring airline safety measures up for years. Was not popular. People would not put up with it. Might cost Congress a few votes to do something about it. And the airlines were against it. And the people did not care. So screw that wish list too. Was it a bad 'wish' list?

Rail roaded? That's why they have staffs. You can't assume just because a bill went through Congress fast it was rail roaded or bad (you can if you think almost every law the government has is bad for us - like Harry Browne, he should run for president).

Plus the actual name of the bill was not anti - terrorism bill, it was the Patriot Act of 2001.

I would have named it Catching Up on Business We Neglected for Years Act of 2001.

Not saying it is all good, but just because it was railroaded does not make it worse than anything else Congress does from time to time. Nothing Congress does is all good (except when they recess).

Constitution eroded. No. Maybe the part about defending us had a little. I think it's just on it's normal pendulum swing like it has been for the last 200+ years.
12steve houpt
      ID: 281057247
      Wed, Nov 28, 2001, 16:04
EO's - Note: If you go looking for one about tribunals - you won't find it. It was a Military Order to the Department of Defense (even though most of the press still reports it as a EO).

NUMBER of EO's ISSUED:
Hoover - 1,011
FDR - 3,728
Truman - 896
Ike - 486
JFK - 214
LBJ - 324
Tricky Dick - 346
Ford - 169
Carter - 320
Reagan - 381
GHW Bush - 166
Slick Willie - 364
GW Bush - 38
13Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Sun, Dec 02, 2001, 22:31
A very comprehensive look at just how the Bill of Rights gets strippped and how Congress is manipulated and review sidestepped.
14Madman
      ID: 68361122
      Mon, Dec 03, 2001, 02:42
I actually don't think that most of the Bill of Rights has been too "stripped". But do consider two amendments:

Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

These amendments appear to be in direct contradiction with the modern interpretation of the so-called "General Welfare" clause. And they would also cast extreme doubt on modern interpretations of the Interstate Commerce clause.

Aside from these two amendments, which 60-70 percent of modern Americans would call archaic and wasteful, anyway, I think the rest of the Constitution has remained remarkably intact, considering the passage of 200 years.

And, FDR might have been right. Maybe by sticking to these 48 words we would have suffered a revolution against the whole of the rest of the Constitution. And if I'm going to choose, I think I'd choose the rest of the Constitution over these 48 words, powerful though they may be.
15Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Tue, Dec 04, 2001, 11:43
It seems that rushing questionable bills weakening civil rights protections past cowed legislatures is not limited to the USA. It's mirrored in the UK.

up the Anti-Terrorism and Security Bill - UK style

It will make it easier for state agencies such as the police to scrutinise information currently considered confidential. They could conduct speculative trawls without having to seek the permission of a court and the subject of any mistaken, or malicious, abuse of these powers has no practical recourse for the invasion of his privacy. The police do not even need to entertain a reasonable suspicion that their trawl will yield evidence for a terrorist prosecution, merely that their fishing expedition will land any information that may help them in the investigation of any crime.

What, it must be asked, are such widespread new powers for the police doing in a specifically anti-terrorist Bill? And one which is being allowed such a brief time for scrutiny?


Just how long can we get away with wishful thinking that such powers will not be abused? This pattern of behavior in countries that supposedly revere civil rights taken along with the fact that the citizens are being disarmed in a successful concerted effort should give one pause. Also in the UK there is a government move towards abandoning jury trials. Heck if you don't trust them to defend themselves who cares about their opinion regarding court judgements? Leave these matters in big brother's hands junior.
16biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 231045110
      Tue, Dec 04, 2001, 12:07
A point where our opinions converge, Baldwin.
17Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Tue, Dec 04, 2001, 20:19
Now the EU (European Union) is getting into the act.


More than 200 lawyers from nearly every country in the European Union (EU) have signed an appeal urging European Parliament and EU governments to reject a broad definition of terrorism.

"This antiterrorist legislation once imposed will become a real war machine against fundamental democratic rights," the appeal warned, "and against those who come up against a political and social system with its basis in economics, a system increasingly global and unjust."

Most of these proposals have no relation to terrorism," Fermon said, "but the EU is now using 9-11 to get them passed without criticism.
[sound familiar? -B]

"The main concern is that the definition is so broad that it includes all kinds of lawful protest. Trade union activity, anti-globalization protest, all of it can be criminalized under the legislation."

"In some respects, they're going further than the U.S.," Andrews said. "The data retention proposals, and things like keeping data on those suspected of public disturbance" have not been proposed in the United States, she said.


It warned the EU might expand its Schengen Information System (SIS) -- an existing system for sharing law enforcement information among EU states -- to include "suspected protesters."

"Targeted suspects would be tagged with an "alert" on the SIS and barred from entry (to) the country where the protest or event was taking place," the report warned. The matter is being discussed by the EU but has not yet been approved, according to Statewatch.

Following violence this summer at anti-globalization protests in Genoa, Italy, and Goteborg, Sweden, the European Union began considering proposals to give police additional power to stop the protests. Since Sept. 11, those efforts appear to have merged with a push to combat terrorism.

Fermon doesn't believe EU governments intend to use terror laws against domestic protesters. But he fears unintended consequences once laws are on the books. As an example, he cites the decision earlier this year to prosecute protesters at Goteborg
[anti-globalization protest -B] under anti-mafia laws. [reminds you of RICO laws being used against abortion protesters -B]

We fear that once you get into this kind of logic, you inevitably end up having all kinds of special rules incompatible with fair trial," he said
18Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Thu, Dec 27, 2001, 04:28
How far we have fallen.

The US Supreme Court used to think that violation of constitutional rights in a criminal prosecution deserves a remedy, no matter how much time has gone by. In Pennsylvania ex. rel. Herman v. Claudy, 350 U.S. 116 (1956), the Supreme Court unanimously held:

Nor was petitioner barred from presenting his challenge to the conviction because 8 years had passed before this action was commenced. Uveges did not challenge his conviction for 7 years. 335 U.S. 437, 438-439. And in a later case we held that a prisoner could challenge the validity of his conviction 18 years after he had been convicted. Palmer v. Ashe, 342 U.S. 134.

The sound premise upon which these holdings rested is that men incarcerated in flagrant violation of their constitutional rights have a remedy.

This "sound premise" that the Supreme Court recognized unanimously in 1956 has now been completely rejected. Flagrant violation of constitutional rights is no longer considered to be so important. Under today's regime, much more important than correction of injustice is administrative convenience, the so-called "need" to employ legal technicalities to keep people from presenting claims of injustice to a court. The injustice to Stephen Herman, which the Supreme Court unanimously corrected in 1956, today could not even get in the front door of any federal court.

also...

Among the rules created by federal judges for throwing cases out of court are "cause and prejudice", "abuse of the writ", "state court ruling of procedural default", "exhaustion", "deference to state court findings of fact" and "abstention doctrine." "Abuse of the writ" is instructive. The Constitution does not say that filing a second Habeas Corpus petition raising different issues than the first is an abuse of the writ of habeas corpus, nor does it say that the penalty for such "abuse" is your case gets thrown out of court. It does say that the right of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended.

Another horrendous provision of the "Anti-Terrorism Act" [the 1996 one] limits the right to file a Petition for Habeas Corpus to one year after the conviction becomes final by the appeal being rejected by the highest court of the state. Why is that unjust?

The prisoner might never have heard of Habeas Corpus until the year is over.

The prisoner might not know how to file a Petition for Habeas Corpus.

There is no right to an appointed lawyer for Habeas Corpus even if you are poor. It may be years before you find someone willing to help pay for a lawyer.

The lawyer in state court may have failed to raise the appropriate issues, leaving no good issues to raise within the one year period. Genuine unfairness cannot be repaired.

The prisoner may have been tricked by another convict into paying the convict some small sum to have the convict write a Petition for Habeas Corpus for him. The convict may do a terrible job.

New information may arise that does not prove you are innocent, but does prove your trial was unfair. For example, your judge or lawyer being bribed to work against you. If you learn about this 1 year and 1 day after your conviction is final, it can never be raised.

Many people have been freed years after the conviction upon a finding that they were innocent, or wrongly convicted. Such actions will now be a thing of the past.


19Seattle Zen
      ID: 411302615
      Thu, Dec 27, 2001, 13:37
Excellent post, Baldwin, I couldn't agree more.
20Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Thu, Dec 27, 2001, 15:41
That was a cut and paste btw. I have been suspecting that my scrupulously italicizing all cut and paste material is only making the material harder to read and have recently reduced the amount of italics I use.
21biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Thu, Dec 27, 2001, 16:17
How about Ashcroft going back on his word to fund DNA testing of previously convicted felons, which may have an opportunity to prove their innocence.
22Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Thu, Dec 27, 2001, 17:01
Well no, Biliruben as your link shows those grants were never officially ruled to go in that direction and it was never Ashcroft's word to do so. That said I am all for pressuring Congress and the Justice Dept. to step up DNA testing that can free innocent people.
23biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Thu, Dec 27, 2001, 17:10
He publicly announced he would make good on Reno's pledge of dollars for dna tests of prisoners. That, by my definition, is going back on your word.

I never said anything about official rulings.
24Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Thu, Dec 27, 2001, 17:14
He may have publicly announced it but your link doesn't say so.
25biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Thu, Dec 27, 2001, 17:25
Yeah - I read that in a print paper yesterday or the day before.

Here's an AP article from the time...
26biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Thu, Dec 27, 2001, 17:32
D'oh! Upon closer reading, that isn't quite it, though it does mention it.

I read it in the USA today at the tire store yesterday...

Ashcroft kills DNA grants.
27Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Tue, Apr 09, 2002, 15:13
Lawyer, Three Others Arrested; Charge Is Helping Imprisoned Muslim Militant Send Out Messages I'll be curious to find out how the government gathered its evidence.
28Madman
      ID: 35316313
      Tue, Apr 09, 2002, 17:42
Whoa. Are you sure about that biliruben? I didn't think that was LEGAL, let alone possible. Congress has to appropriate the money; if they gave the Justice Department authority to spend $500,000 on a grant program for DNA testing, then they HAVE to do it, yes? You can't just wake up one day and say, "Hey, you know that petty cash fund of $6,000,000 that Congress set up for us last week to prosecute criminals? We thought it would be cool to use that for an office party. What d'ya think?"

Something just doesn't smell right here.
29biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 231045110
      Wed, Apr 10, 2002, 02:52
Madman - As I recall, Ashcroft had committed to use the dollars to test incarcarated criminals and then changed his mind decided to use the money to "Help ID victims of 9/11", or some such. Is Congress gonna bitch?

I have no idea how much discretion the Justice department has with their budgets, but I doubt Congress specifies the use of every dollar.

This was months ago, btw. You're lucky I remember anything at all! ;)
30Madman
      ID: 35316313
      Wed, Apr 10, 2002, 03:00
Yeah, I just noticed the date and stuff. Sorry -- sometimes I don't get back to all the threads.

I'm sure you are right that the DOJ has some discretion, but taking money from state grants for DNA testing of criminals to DNA testing of terrorism victims . . . that's a HUGE stretch.

Also around that exact same time, people in Congress killed / delayed the Innocents Protection Act which was designed to give the DOJ money to do what sounds like exactly the same thing that Ashcroft had promised to do.

Thus, from what I can gather right now, this almost sounds like a FUBAR on the part of Congress to me, and they left the DOJ out in the cold.

Wish I would have seen this post earlier. The last link didn't work for me, and the Wash. Post article sourced a DOJ spokesman as putting that specific spin on it -- that the DOJ had transferred cash from one job to another. But you know how much I blindly trust most journalists...

Web searches aren't doing me any good here. This may warrant writing my Representative to look into it.
31biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 231045110
      Wed, Apr 10, 2002, 04:42
Found this on Lexis Nexis from the LA Times - (sorry, can't link)

The Justice Department has set aside plans to offer $750,000 in grant money for DNA testing of convicted criminals to determine whether they are indeed guilty. Instead, the money will be used to help identify victims of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, officials said Wednesday.

"There's nothing sinister here," said Charles Miller, a Justice Department spokesman. "What happened was that [Sept. 11] came along" and the funds were redirected. The strategy for selected DNA testing of prisoners had its roots during the Clinton administration, when the process exonerated individuals who had spent years in prison for crimes they did not commit. While some law enforcement officials have expressed concern that DNA testing encourages wasteful appeals, many others have supported the approach as a way to erase doubt about convictions.

While no one criticized the new use of the money, civil liberties advocates complained that the Justice Department's action could leave at least some indigent convicts without the resources to use DNA in a bid to prove their innocence. A DNA test compares biological evidence left at a crime scene, such as blood or semen, with physical evidence from a suspect, in the process affirming a person's guilt or calling it into question.

Advocates for the accused maintain that DNA evidence has cast doubt on dozens of convictions since it came into widespread use about 10 years ago.

"It's safe to say that if you take away $750,000 that was earmarked, there's going to be some people who would have taken the test that would have proved them innocent," said John Pray, a professor at the University of Wisconsin Law School in Madison.

Pray said that the most basic DNA test of an existing sample might cost just $100, but more complex testing that may require further analysis of evidence can run into the thousands of dollars. A growing number of states have started to make such funds available to those convicts who can establish a persuasive reason to conduct the testing.

In August, Atty. Gen. John Ashcroft announced a $30-million initiative to help ease a logjam of DNA requests at various stages of the criminal justice pipeline, including crime scene investigations, as well as to collect samples from federal inmates. Separately, the National Institute of Justice, a research arm of the Justice Department, was preparing to increase a $500,000 DNA program for prisoners to $750,000, providing a new source of grant money available to prosecutors seeking to confirm the guilt of convicts.

At the time, Ashcroft emerged as a champion of DNA testing, telling reporters: "DNA can operate as a kind of truth machine, ensuring justice by identifying the guilty and clearing the innocent. Backlogs of unanalyzed DNA samples and unacceptable delays in analysis of crime scene DNA evidence are preventing the full utilization of this remarkable technology."

In particular, convicts from the 1970s and 1980s may have never had the opportunity to prove their innocence through DNA testing, their advocates said Wednesday.

But Justice Department officials said Wednesday that the events of Sept. 11 created a new need for the $750,000, which will be used to help identify victims of the terrorist attacks and to fund research on identification of mass casualties.

The notion of diverting the DNA funds from their original goal raised eyebrows Wednesday among some who have watched the Justice Department grapple with its policy on DNA. The cutback was first reported in USA Today.

"It sounds a little fishy," said Jerry Lyell, a defense attorney in Arlington, Va. "To hear them cutting back, especially such a small amount comparatively, . . . might suggest that their hearts weren't in the right place in the first place."

Anthony Romero, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union, said: "The decision to scrap the DNA testing of some inmates is unfortunate. The technology would have increased the public confidence in the legal system and the resources would have been well placed. With all the public doubts about the death penalty and around racial bias in the criminal justice system, we should use every avenue open to us to increase public confidence."
32Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Wed, Apr 10, 2002, 22:27
Date for that, biliruben?

I mean, this really stinks. That second to last paragraph says it. What's the deal? We ARE talking peanuts.

That's what makes me wonder what the heck is really going on here.

One explanation is that Ashcroft was mouthing things he didn't mean -- as you noted.

But this whole thing seems so whacked . . . and why haven't people publicized this more???

Frankly, this is the sort of thing that really gets me annoyed with our government. Unless the popular media really wants to get into a subject, we in the hinterland are really clueless. Even with Thomas.gov and other things on-line now, it is darned hard to find out how are tax dollars are actually being spent. This seems like a perfect example of this.
33biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 231045110
      Thu, Apr 11, 2002, 02:15
It was around christmas. I uncovered in searching between Dec 20-30th.

I agree, it seems bizarre to me, given the amount of money they are talking about. You can only assume the worst about Ashcroft and the Justice department's motivations.
34Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Tue, Dec 24, 2002, 05:22
Baldwin joins forces with Natt Hentoff and Village Voice, the American Civil Liberties Union, the Electronic Privacy Information Center, the American Booksellers Foundation for Free Expression, and the Freedom to Read Foundation and Eugene Oregon...what is this world coming to? 8]

What the Eugene city council and the other Bill of Rights Defense Committees are asking for is also part of a national lawsuit under the Freedom of Information Act, filed in October by the American Civil Liberties Union, the Electronic Privacy Information Center, the American Booksellers Foundation for Free Expression, and the Freedom to Read Foundation. A federal district judge in Washington, D.C., has ordered Attorney General John Ashcroft to supply the information those four organizations have requested by January 15—or the government will have to explain why it's not revealing how it is implementing the USA Patriot Act and the subsequent executive orders (Eugene's city council and others around the country are also waiting to find out).

"Experience hath shewn," said Thomas Jefferson, "that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny."


35Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Tue, Apr 22, 2003, 11:13
Toogood Reports...
A recent report published by Gun Owners of America gave an in-depth summary of a new expanded version of the USA Patriot Act. The Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003 (DSEA) gives even more broad new powers to the federal government.

The GOA report states, "Our analysis suggests that, rather than toughening our ability to capture and kill Osama bin Laden and his ilk, this bill would instead rely on cosmetic 'solutions' which threaten the constitutional rights of Americans, without increasing our national security. In fact, this placebo will probably make our country considerably less secure."

The report lists several problematic portions of the new bill including:

• The government could bug, wiretap, or search anyone in America for up to 15 days without going to any court.

• The government could seize personal information about Americans (including credit information, educational transcripts, etc.) in a wide range of circumstances without the approval of any court.

• Individuals and groups which advocate Second Amendment rights could be classified as "foreign powers" and subjected to electronic surveillance for up to one year without the approval of any court.

• DSEA could allow members and supporters of gun rights organizations to be stripped of their citizenship, arrested and held indefinitely without charges, here or abroad, in secret at a secret location without access to an attorney or benefit of constitutional protections.

• Allows the federal government to create and sustain a DNA database of "suspected" terrorists, with the federal government exercising unfettered discretion over who is a "suspected" terrorist. Under this law, a "suspected" terrorist would be any person whom the U.S. Attorney General says is a "suspected" terrorist.

It should be obvious to all Americans that the federal government is using the "war on terrorism" as a ruse to abolish the freedoms of the American people, to eviscerate the Bill of Rights, and to seize unlimited power for itself. It should also be obvious that if it were a Democratic administration attempting this, resistance would be vocal and vigorous. Because it is a Republican administration, however, resistance is almost nonexistent.
Resistance to this un-American madness appears anemic.
36biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 589301110
      Tue, Apr 22, 2003, 11:32
More evidence of liberal media bias. snort
37Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Tue, Apr 22, 2003, 11:42
This is just one of those things that doesn't sort itself left/right Bili.

38Madman
      Donor
      ID: 398591212
      Tue, Apr 22, 2003, 11:55
Volokh Conspiracy ... See Orin Kerr from 11:39 AM, Thursday, April 17 ...

IS THE ACLU TELLING THE FULL STORY IN ITS NEW ANTI-PATRIOT ACT ADVERTISING CAMPAIGN?: The ACLU has recently unveiled a new advertising campaign against the USA Patriot Act. (You can read the ACLU's press release here, and view a sample advertisement here). The current campaign targets so-called "sneak and peek" or "delayed notice" search warrants, which are search warrants issued by a judge that do not require the government to notify the target that the search has occurred until some period after the search occurred (usually a few days later). For example, if the government needs to scout out a bad guy's apartment to confirm his participation in criminal activity before making an arrest, the government may be able to obtain a delayed notice warrant, execute the warrant when the suspect is out, and confirm the suspect's participation before making the arrest a few days later.

The ACLU campaign suggests that this law enforcement power was granted by the Patriot Act, and that its existence is a good reason to oppose the Patriot Act and future government requests for additional surveillance powers. Thanks to the Patriot Act, the ACLU says,
Now, the government can secretly enter your home while you're away . . . rifle through your personal belongings . . . download your computer files . . . and seize any items at will.
. . .
Under the USA Patriot Act, the government can invade your privacy even if you're not suspected of terrorism or any other crime. And, because of the Patriot Act, you may never know what the government has done.
It's an effective advertisement; I'm sure it will scare lots of people. And it's certainly legitimate to oppose the surveillance provisions of the Patriot Act, or additional proposals currently floating about. However, there are important things that the ACLU isn't telling you in their advertisement. Here are a few things that the ACLU advertisement overlooks, and that present a picture a bit different than the one the ACLU suggests:

1. The government has had the authority to conduct sneak-and-peek searches since long before the Patriot Act. The ACLU's advertisement makes it sound like the Patriot Act introduced sneak-and-peek warrants. But it didn't. The courts have interpreted the Fourth Amendment and the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure to allow sneak-and-peek warrants since the 1980s. See, e.g., United States v. Freitas, 800 F.2d 1451 (9th Cir. 1986); United States v. Villegas, 899 F.2d 1423 (2d Cir. 1990); United States v. Simons, 206 F.3d 392 (4th Cir. 2000). The Patriot Act explicitly codified powers that the courts had created by judicial interpretations of Rule 41 before the Patriot Act. On balance, the Patriot Act did expand the sneak-and-peek authority slightly: but it's quite incorrect to suggest that the Patriot Act created this authority.

2. A federal judge must authorize the sneak-and-peek warrant after a finding of probable cause and reasonable cause to delay the notice. While the notice can be delayed, it must be given. The judge must not only find probable cause to believe that evidence of crime is located in the place to be seized, but the judge must also find that there is a good reason for notice to be delayed, and the delay must be only for a limited time. The statute, 18 U.S.C. 3103a(b), says:
With respect to the issuance of any warrant or court order under this section, or any other rule of law, to search for and seize any property or material that constitutes evidence of a criminal offense in violation of the laws of the United States, any notice required, or that may be required, to be given may be delayed if--
(1) the court finds reasonable cause to believe that providing immediate notification of the execution of the warrant may have an adverse result (as defined in section 2705);
(2) the warrant prohibits the seizure of any tangible property, any wire or electronic communication (as defined in section 2510), or, except as expressly provided in chapter 121, any stored wire or electronic information, except where the court finds reasonable necessity for the seizure; and
(3) the warrant provides for the giving of such notice within a reasonable period of its execution, which period may thereafter be extended by the court for good cause shown.
3. The same Fourth Amendment protections that apply to the execution of other warrants also apply to sneak-and-peek warrants. The ACLU advertisement says that "the government can secretly enter your home while you're away . . . rifle through your personal belongings . . . download your computer files . . . and seize any items at will." But they can't. The Patriot Act does not authorize such a search, and such a search would plainly violate the Fourth Amendment. Under the Fourth Amendment, the warrant must specifically name the place to be searched and the items to be seized. The warrant must be executed in a reasonable manner; if the police use the warrant as an opportunity to conduct a 'fishing expedition' for any kind of incriminating information not named, all of the evidence obtained pursuant to the warrant must be suppressed.

To be clear, I'm not necessarily defending the Patriot Act's sneak-and-peek provisions. I would have preferred more clear standards in the statute instead of the mushy "reasonable cause" and "good cause" standards. I also think such powers should be used only very sparingly, if at all. However, the ACLU's campaign seems to misrepresent this area of law considerably, as well as the role of the Patriot Act. Which to me prompts a question: If the Patriot Act is as bad as the ACLU says, why would they need to misrepresent the effect of the law in their advertising campaign?


There is so much misinformation out there about these bills, it is truly astounding.

Don't get me wrong, I think most are unnecessary infringements and therefore should be opposed. But I'm just tired of the hyperbole all the time.
39Tree
      Donor
      ID: 38249212
      Wed, Apr 23, 2003, 21:32
or perhaps, it's perfectly acceptable for the U.S. Government to maintain secret lists of people who are not allowed to fly on airplanes - and it's equally acceptable to place those people on the list, and not disclose why...

ACLU Seeks Gov't Data on 'No-Fly' List

nope, no erosion of personal freedoms there...

peace,
Tree
40Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Mon, Jun 11, 2007, 20:02
Court Says Military Cannot Hold 'Enemy Combatant'
In a stinging rejection of one of the Bush administration’s central assertions about the scope of executive authority to combat terrorism, a federal appeals court ordered the Pentagon to release a man being held as an enemy combatant. “To sanction such presidential authority to order the military to seize and indefinitely detain civilians," Judge Diana Gribbon Motz wrote, “even if the President calls them ‘enemy combatants,’ would have disastrous consequences for the Constitution — and the country.”

“We refuse to recognize a claim to power,” Judge Motz added, “that would so alter the constitutional foundations of our Republic.”

Even a moron like AG Gonzalez can grasp the force of that rebuke.
41Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Mon, Jun 11, 2007, 20:48
Hey Zen - Want to lay odds on this decision standing? I say it'll be reheard by the entire 4th Circuit or else SCOTUS will overturn.
42Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Mon, Jun 11, 2007, 21:21
Let me read the whole ruling. What points do you think the SCOTUS will disagree?
43Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Mon, Jun 11, 2007, 21:29
I don't think it'll even get to SCOTUS. DOJ has already asked the case be heard en banc; this was a 2-1 decision.

The 4th Circuit is pretty pro-government on these things and I think the full panel will reverse it's own decision and it'll be heard by SCOTUS.

I think that both the full 4th or SCOTUS would simply find that the Prez has this authority under the 09/11 Resolution and Art. II., just like the dissent to this decision would have.

44Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Tue, Jun 12, 2007, 17:50
Zen, in case you don't have it, here's the link to the 4th opion and dissent .

The first 70 pages or so (geez) is the Opinion. The Dissent is 9 pages. I'll always agree with 9 pages over 70.

Anway, the dissent's conclusion is how I will bet that that either the full CoA or SCOTUS will rule. Betcha a beer.
45sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Tue, Jun 12, 2007, 18:01
Just out of curiosity MBJ...Do you think the ruling will go as you project because its the "right" legal ruling, or because you think the court is "stacked" to go that direction?
46Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Tue, Jun 12, 2007, 18:04
I'm not competent to say - I just like to gamble with Zen.
47Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Tue, Jun 12, 2007, 18:23
Sight unseen, I'll take that bet. Eventually I'll read the opinion and dissent and start feeling better about my chances :)
48Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Tue, Jun 12, 2007, 18:29
My very unqualified opinion would be that:


Legally:

I don't think that SCOTUS would decide the Hamdi case the way it did and let this case stand.

Policy:

The idea that a foriegn member of an organization engaged in active warfare against the government of the US and sent here to actively engage in such acts can only be treated as a common criminal with all the Constituional protections therein entailed is just unworkable. That was part of the reason the AUMF and the 09/11 Resolution were enacted
49Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Tue, Jun 12, 2007, 18:30
Zen - you've got action. Read 'em and weep.
50Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Thu, Aug 23, 2007, 00:16
Me on June 11:

I don't think it'll even get to SCOTUS. DOJ has already asked the case be heard en banc; this was a 2-1 decision.

The 4th Circuit is pretty pro-government on these things and I think the full panel will reverse it's own decision and it'll be heard by SCOTUS.

I think that both the full 4th or SCOTUS would simply find that the Prez has this authority under the 09/11 Resolution and Art. II., just like the dissent to this decision would have



The Fourth Circuit Court on Wednesday agreed to reconsider the question of the President's power to order the capture inside the U.S., and the prolonged detention afterward in a military prison, of a civilian suspected of terrorist ties. A majority of the Circuit Court's judges voted to grant en banc review of Al-Marri v. Wright (Circuit docket 06-7427).

The origainal 2-1 decision has been vacated.

One of those fancy Seattle beers, please...

51Seattle Zen
      ID: 86541617
      Thu, Aug 23, 2007, 14:30
Anway, the dissent's conclusion is how I will bet that that either the full CoA or SCOTUS will rule. Betcha a beer.

They still have to rule, but your chances are looking up.
52Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Thu, Aug 23, 2007, 15:47
yes, I'm just taking smack...errr.... expressing my confidence.
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