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Subject: Abu Gharaib Posted by: Madman - Donor [398591212] Fri, Apr 30, 2004, 10:22 I didn't see a thread on this ... a couple of yahoo! links ... Al Jazeera jumps on this ... CBS airs images Obviously, this is terrible. But, for better or worse, what really burned me up was this: Army Reserve Staff Sergeant Chip Frederick has been charged with maltreatment, assault and indecent acts for posing for a photograph while sitting on top of a detainee, striking detainees and ordering detainees to strike each other, among other things, CBS said. Frederick, a prison guard from Virginia in civilian life, and his lawyer, Gary Myers, blamed the problems at the prison on the atmosphere created by commanders. "We had no support, no training whatsoever," he told CBS. WTF? I mean, how much training does it take before you realize that forcing prisoners to strip naked and simulate oral sex with one another ? I suppose if we would have told him that such a thing was against the Geneva Convention that it wouldn't have happened *then*. Geez. | |||||||
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| 346 | Baldwin ID: 5544766 Tue, May 18, 2004, 19:37 |
My positions about the boundary line are clear: I draw the line at beatings and sexual assault. Mind tricks are different than torture. Obviously ording the one prisoner to masterbate in front of a female and forcing simulated sodomy are over the line. Ordering them to be naked to strip them of their self-confidence before interrogation is not out of bounds. I suppose a good argument could be made if it were female interrogators but otherwise not. Bags over heads as long as it's not part of mock executions is not exceptionally onerous. Telling prisoners they will be electrocuted if they step off the box is probably over the line. On the otherhand in that case where they knew there was an ambush planned and they were desperate to obtain the inside info on that one, I think a case can be made that putting the fear of death in the detainee was warranted. War is dirty business. Letting Americans die because lawyers are hanging over interogators' necks is problematic. | ||||||
| 347 | Mattinglyinthehall ID: 217351118 Tue, May 18, 2004, 20:06 |
I haven't heard one person among the horror brigade suggest that keeping the prisoners off mentally off balance before they go in for interrogation was a good idea. Well for one thing, when have you called on anyone for their opinion on that matter? I might as well call you a thief because I've never heard you say that you are opposed to stealing. For another thing, yes you have heard one person among the horror brigade suggest that keeping the prisoners off mentally off balance before they go in for interrogation was a good idea, Crusader. Check post 189 - you even responded to it. I suggest that before you go bashing the positions of others, Crusader, you at least make an effort to find out what they are - they might be right in your ignorant face. | ||||||
| 348 | Baldwin ID: 5544766 Tue, May 18, 2004, 20:13 | I didn't realize you agreed with that quote. Where in that post does it say you agree with that and where have you yourself taken that position? If you've been my ally in the thread you could be more clear about it. | ||||||
| 349 | Mattinglyinthehall ID: 217351118 Tue, May 18, 2004, 20:17 |
My post 189 (above where I pasted the text pf the article): Sunday's Washington Post ran a good article on where we place our limits regarding interrogation techniques in Guantanamo Bay. I'd say that I support them as limits (as they are presented in the article), so long as it remains that special permission must be sought and granted by the poweres that be for more extensive measures, and that such measures be supervised as they are carried out. | ||||||
| 350 | Mattinglyinthehall ID: 217351118 Tue, May 18, 2004, 20:20 | Frankly, I don't see where you called on anyone to speak up about it. Your rants seemed to come from out of nowhere. | ||||||
| 351 | Tree ID: 514291819 Tue, May 18, 2004, 21:15 | US soldier alleges cover-up in prison abuse | ||||||
| 352 | Baldwin ID: 5544766 Tue, May 18, 2004, 22:18 | BTW what has happened to this forum lately? Are the only issues in the world promotion of gay sex in America and elimination of sex harrassment in Iraqi prisons? | ||||||
| 353 | walk Leader ID: 32928238 Wed, May 19, 2004, 11:20 |
U.S. Solider Sentenced to Max for Prison Abuse - walk | ||||||
| 354 | j o s h ID: 29461912 Wed, May 19, 2004, 19:09 | Sivits our hometown hero. | ||||||
| 355 | Baldwin ID: 5544766 Thu, May 20, 2004, 10:51 |
1. the UN Food-for-Oil scandal continues apace. And 2. The first sentence has been handed down in the Abu Ghraib abuse scandal. A downgrade, a bad-conduct discharge, a year in the pokey. | ||||||
| 356 | yankeeh8tr ID: 22448207 Thu, May 20, 2004, 13:25 |
WARNING: BAD TASTE AHEAD So I told them a broom stick or plunger handle about this long is what the NYPD uses, and anything more would raise concerns. | ||||||
| 357 | Tree Donor ID: 599393013 Thu, May 20, 2004, 13:28 | i prefer "come on. the lie was only this big. our bosses, the commander-in-chief and his folks, have lies that are thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis big..." | ||||||
| 358 | bibA Donor ID: 261028117 Thu, May 20, 2004, 14:09 | How bout "c'mon, gimme a big hug". | ||||||
| 359 | walk Leader ID: 32928238 Fri, May 21, 2004, 11:49 |
I just saw video coverage of the abuse on CNN headline news (we have monitors at the investment bank where I work). I had to walk away -- it's gonna get a lot worse, before this goes away. And I sure hope Bushbag goes away with it, with a plunger up his butt. - walk | ||||||
| 360 | Baldwin ID: 5544766 Fri, May 21, 2004, 11:52 | Must be a NY thing. | ||||||
| 361 | walk Leader ID: 32928238 Fri, May 21, 2004, 11:53 |
New Details of Abuse Emerge - walk | ||||||
| 362 | j o s h ID: 164572017 Fri, May 21, 2004, 12:11 | Does this qualify as an internal ivestigation? | ||||||
| 363 | walk Leader ID: 32928238 Fri, May 21, 2004, 12:37 |
"He had suffered head wounds during a struggle with Navy SEALs at the time of his arrest, sources said, and died after CIA interrogations." They make it sound like it was an accident. Ugh. I tellya, war is awful, but it sure is more awful to read about our guys, supposedly here & there to make peace and stop terrorism and tyranny, do horrid things. Where is the true accountability? I doubt Rumsfeld said: "And do what you have to do to get 'em to talk," but some senior dudes needed to have a closer eye on these interrogations. Being blind and ignorant is derelection of duty, no? I think Sarge33rd has indicated elsewhere such (#110). Awful. - walk | ||||||
| 364 | Tree Donor ID: 599393013 Fri, May 21, 2004, 14:05 |
just so many things coming out that occurred that simply don't even qualify under GMoney's policy of "eh, they're the enemy, who cares, rough 'em up." sex acts like forced masturbation, forced oral sex, groping and fondling of the prisoners by female soldiers, and so on. "humiliation" acts including renouncing the Muslim religion. it's pretty mind-boggling, and if there wasn't already a cemented idea in the Muslim world that the U.S. is waging a war on the Muslim religion, there probably is now. | ||||||
| 365 | walk Leader ID: 32928238 Fri, May 21, 2004, 14:27 |
Good points, Tree. This stuff has surely reinforced the "evil amerika" views that others have of us. And, it seems to get uglier each week, in terms of alleged torture, up to and including rape. - walk | ||||||
| 366 | sarge33rd ID: 204501423 Fri, May 21, 2004, 15:14 |
and it is thosde very allegations and the potential worldwide repercussions in the long term, which give me pause in holding the lower enlisted personnel involved, in a much lighter or less severe vein than I do. Yes, the orders were implied to have come from 'Washington" (thats how MI operates...veiled), and so the junior personnel really didnt know how to go about failing to obey what they perceived as 'orders'. In more than a few scenarios, I could show a fair amount of empathy and compassion for that junior soldier. This case however, has much too far-reaching implications on a global scale, to 'take the easy road'. The investigations need to be thorough, sound and inclusive of senior personnel. The punishments for those found to be directly involved or indirectly involved via negligence, need to be swift and severe. | ||||||
| 367 | j o s h ID: 474102113 Fri, May 21, 2004, 15:45 |
Interesting story/investigation here. Not to surprising tho. Exporting Abuse? Wardens Chosen to Establish Iraq Prison System Had Past Abuse Allegations | ||||||
| 368 | Gmoney16 Donor ID: 5810561615 Sat, May 22, 2004, 00:40 |
Tree Good to see you are still spreading BS and lies. What has been been, a day or two since your last made up post? I was afraid you might be sick or something (or even worse grew up) ;0). Welcome back to your land of make believe. | ||||||
| 369 | Tree ID: 59432019 Sat, May 22, 2004, 01:22 |
Good to see you are still spreading BS and lies. What has been been, a day or two since your last made up post? I was afraid you might be sick or something (or even worse grew up) ;0). Welcome back to your land of make believe. GMoney - what in God's name are you talking about?? have you read ANY of the stories linked in this thread, or elsewhere on the internet or in newspapers worldwide? i mean heck, here's just one article.... WASHINGTON - Some prisoners at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison were ridden like animals, fondled by female soldiers, forced to curse their religion and required to retrieve their food from toilets, according to a published report Friday. The Washington Post, in its Friday editions, also published new photographs and shots from a video of the alleged abuse and sexual humiliation of Iraq prisoners by U.S. soldiers. The newspaper said the material, including secret sworn statements from prisoners, came from evidence being assembled from investigations into possible criminal charges against U.S. soldiers... ...The Post also said detainees told investigators they were forced to denounce Islam or force-fed pork or liquor, required to masturbate in front of female soldiers, threatened with rape, and made to walk on all their hands and knees and bark like dogs. so GMoney, are these the lies you're accusing me of? if you're going to accuse me of spreading lies, you'd better be well-equipped to back it up. | ||||||
| 370 | Tree ID: 59432019 Sat, May 22, 2004, 09:23 |
GMoney - here's just ONE photo of abuse: so, come on. back it up. back up your claims of me spreading lies. | ||||||
| 371 | Mattinglyinthehall ID: 217351118 Sat, May 22, 2004, 09:40 |
Tree, I believe what GMoney is refering to re lie-spreading is your claim that he espouses the position, "eh, they're the enemy, who cares, rough 'em up." In his defensse, he actually explained himself pretty clearly in 333: My post had nothing to do with the legitimate torture that was discussed in this thread. I don't support it in any way. My post was in regards to the fact that one extreme is not correct and neither is a completely opposite extreme. IMO there is an acceptable amount of interrogation but the line was easily crossed by the situation in question. Not really an issue needing any further discussion. | ||||||
| 372 | Pancho Villa Sustainer ID: 533817 Sat, May 22, 2004, 09:55 | I'm not following ,MITH. G$ specifically accuses Tree of spreading BS and lies, but doesn't point out what or where. In my experience on this board, limited as it is, if you're going to make an accusation, especially one as inflammatory as that one, you'd better be very specific about the post number and content that you are refering to. Otherwise, it falls into the category that G$ has decried many times(and rightfully so) of attacking a poster based on general disagreements as opposed to specifics. | ||||||
| 373 | biliruben ID: 5061711 Sat, May 22, 2004, 11:28 | I'm guessing #364, where tree accuses g$ of indifference to torture. | ||||||
| 375 | Tree ID: 59432019 Sat, May 22, 2004, 12:45 |
Sergeant `flagged' for telling news media about prison abuses and it just gets prettier and prettier.... | ||||||
| 376 | yankeeh8tr ID: 374342211 Sat, May 22, 2004, 12:45 |
It should be apparent by now, pv that a double standard applies for g$. It's okay for him to make non-specific and unsubstantiated accusations at tree, (Good to see you are still spreading BS and lies. What has been been, a day or two since your last made up post...Welcome back to your land of make believe.) but he requires a much more concise and corroborated argument if you're counterpointing him. This has been his M.O. in virtually every discussion he's involved in, from creationism to Abu Gharaib. We're talking about a guy who took 100 posts to clarify some sarcastic and flippant remarks in this thread because he wasn't "asked properly". | ||||||
| 377 | bibA Donor ID: 261028117 Sat, May 22, 2004, 13:17 |
My guess is that it upsets Tree that G$ seems to desire having it both ways. Prior to post 236 this thread had dealt with abuse and the torture of Iraqi prisoners in U.S. custody. In 236 G$ intimates that attempting to gain the cooperation of prisoners by softer means would be tantamount to our begging ("please, please, please") and offering them steak and lobster. In 333 G$ then states something to the effect that he doesn't support the torture of prisoners as discussed in this thread. (As to post 333, I did not find it to be as clearly articulated as you must have MITH, but that is neither here nor there.) It would thus appear that G$ has set himself up as against being too soft on prisoners and thus coddling them, and when called on it, then able to support a claim that he is against "the legitimate torture discussed in this thread". | ||||||
| 378 | Tree ID: 94332316 Sun, May 23, 2004, 18:40 |
instead of fixing the problem, we'll just try and hide it better... (java doesn't seem to be working here on my parent's computer) http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1514&e=19&u=/afp/20040523/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_britain_us_rumsfeld_040523110749 Rumsfeld bans camera phones in Iraq: report LONDON (AFP) - Cellphones fitted with digital cameras have been banned in US army installations in Iraq (news - web sites) on orders from Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, a business newspaper reported. Quoting a Pentagon (news - web sites) source, The Business newspaper said the US Defense Department believes that some of the damning photos of US soldiers abusing Iraqis at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad were taken with camera phones. "Digital cameras, camcorders and cellphones with cameras have been prohibited in military compounds in Iraq," it said, adding that a "total ban throughout the US military" is in the works. Disturbing new photos of Iraqi prisoner abuse, which the US government had reportedly tried to keep hidden, were published Friday in the Washington Post newspaper. The photos emerged along with details of testimony from inmates at Abu Ghraib who said they were sexually molested by female soldiers, beaten, sodomized and forced to eat food from toilets. | ||||||
| 379 | yankeeh8tr ID: 344232418 Mon, May 24, 2004, 19:59 | U.S. to Demolish Abu Ghraib Prison | ||||||
| 380 | Tree ID: 15453232 Mon, May 24, 2004, 22:34 | isn't this prison essentially a crime scene at the moment? weird. | ||||||
| 381 | Myboyjack ID: 21556266 Tue, May 25, 2004, 08:33 | Great PR move. Inspired. | ||||||
| 382 | Myboyjack ID: 21556266 Tue, May 25, 2004, 08:47 |
I don't expest will see weeks of coverage of this scandal involving foreign troops Teenage rape victims fleeing war in the Democratic Republic of Congo are being sexually exploited by the United Nations peace-keeping troops sent to the stop their suffering. | ||||||
| 383 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader ID: 1629107 Tue, May 25, 2004, 08:51 | The Senate Armed Services Committee has been calling on the Pentagon to demolish the prison for almost 3 weeks now. Rumsfeld wanted to wait until the June 30th transition and let the Iraqis decide what to do with it. | ||||||
| 384 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader ID: 1629107 Tue, May 25, 2004, 10:25 |
It's not just cameras that are banned for our military in Iraq, apparently email is off limits, too. American Soldiers Censored? | ||||||
| 385 | Myboyjack ID: 21556266 Tue, May 25, 2004, 10:35 | MITH - I'm quite certain that soldiers in Iraq still have Yahoo! internet and email access on military computers. That's as of 4:00 Sunday. 100% certain. That story is bunk. | ||||||
| 386 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader ID: 1629107 Tue, May 25, 2004, 10:36 | Fair enough - and good to hear. | ||||||
| 387 | j o s h ID: 492511 Tue, May 25, 2004, 16:18 |
Iraqis Accuse U.S. Troops of Theft in House Raids | ||||||
| 388 | biliruben ID: 441182916 Tue, May 25, 2004, 16:40 |
Ahh... the spoils of war. Who says raping and pillaging are passe. What was that about absolute power? | ||||||
| 389 | Old Man Greene Sustainer ID: 4159518 Tue, May 25, 2004, 17:02 | #385..I'm not sure about the e-mail statement..My son is in Iraq with the Marines..the last e-mail (hotmail account) I received from him was April 21..hefore that I was getting a e-mail's every week from him.....I never thought much when I didn't receive e-mails..just figured he was to busy..but I will find out in the next letter I receive from him | ||||||
| 390 | Tree Donor ID: 599393013 Thu, May 27, 2004, 10:23 |
Oh? nah, you're only the Pentagon. You're not important enough to be included in these decisions... Pentagon surprised by Bush pledge to destroy Abu Ghraib: report WASHINGTON (AFP) - Pentagon officials were caught by surprise by President George W. Bush's announcement on Tuesday that the notorious Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad was to be torn down. "This office was not aware of any plans to raze Abu Ghraib or build another prison," a Pentagon spokesman told The New York Times, insisting that he remain anonymous lest he was seen as contradicting the president. A White House official, who also asked not to be identified, told the daily it was Bush's idea to include the announcement in a speech Tuesday, in which he outlined his strategy to hand over power to an interim Iraqi government on June 30. | ||||||
| 391 | j o s h ID: 394112812 Fri, May 28, 2004, 13:57 | Blunt force injury, fractured scull etc. = natural causes? | ||||||
| 392 | Tree ID: 214472618 Sat, May 29, 2004, 20:16 |
when you've got idiots who condone the abuse at Abu Ghraib, it's no surprise that things like this happen... Gallery Owner Attacked for Iraq Abuse Art | ||||||
| 393 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader ID: 1629107 Tue, Jun 01, 2004, 12:39 |
Re posts 384 - 386 Fwiw I received an email (Yahoo) from my cousin in Iraq over the weekend. | ||||||
| 394 | Tree ID: 510231619 Wed, Dec 08, 2004, 20:08 | Memo Ordered Silence in Iraqi Abuse Case | ||||||
| 395 | bibA Sustainer ID: 261028117 Fri, Dec 10, 2004, 00:56 |
Anyone who has not seen the film "Breaker Morant" should do so. A great film on its own, it has some eerie similarities to the current conflict in Iraq, and more specifically the subject of abuses committed by soldiers in a time of combat. Re: "Breaker Morant" | ||||||
| 396 | Perm Dude ID: 678299 Wed, Aug 29, 2007, 12:08 | Scapegoat gets reprimand only. | ||||||
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