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0 Subject: Armageddon and The War on Terror

Posted by: Pancho Villa
- Sustainer [533817] Thu, May 19, 2005, 16:31

I was suprised to learn that the Islamic prophecy of Armageddon closely resembles that in the Bible from this story in

Asia Times online.

The Muslim media from Egypt to Pakistan consistently paint al-Qaeda, the US-led "war on terror", the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan and events such as those in Uzbekistan in the perspective of the "End of Time" and Har Megiddo.

In Islam, before the return of Jesus (Isa), the Mehdi (restorer of the faith), will appear at the end of time to restore justice on earth and establish universal Islam. The Mehdi will be preceded by al-Dajjal, a Muslim anti-god, who will be defeated and will try to flee from the valley of Har Megiddo, which is in the Jezreel valley, in the north of Israel. Due to its strategic location, it has seen many battles. In 1918, there was a decisive battle between the British and the Ottomans, and General Alenby won the title "Lord of Megiddo". The same area now serves as an Israeli airbase.

In Muslim legend, "Khorasan" is from where an army will emerge to support Muslims in the Middle East. Their battle will end with victory in Palestine and the revival of Khilafah (caliphate). For the past few decades, Muslim academics have described Khorasan as the Central Asian states, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

"End of Time" programs are sold in CDs and DVDs across the Muslim world, which romanticize the Taliban, al-Qaeda and Hizbut Tehrir and add to their popularity.

Al-Qaeda is working to turn the story of Megiddo and the End of Time into reality. And the president of the United States, George W Bush, believes Armageddon is at hand: "The evil one is among us," he said in 2002, in a clear reference to the Antichrist. To quote Michael Ortiz Hill, "[T]he Commander in Chief of the most powerful military force in human history has located American foreign policy within a Biblical narrative that leads inexorably towards the plains of Megiddo ..."


From the same story comes this tidbit that may lessen the harsh treatment accorded Newsweek for their recent story about Koran desecration.

Pakistan's News International published a story in its May 17 issue based on an interview with a detainee at Lahore's Adyala prison. The man had recently been released from Guantanamo Bay and was being held pending final clearance. He claimed that he had personally witnessed several incidents of desecration of the Koran by US soldiers in Guantanamo.

The right wing taliking heads have been calling the Newsweek story a lie, but this would seem to negate those charges. Whether the story is true or not doesn't really answer if it was a responsible thing to do.


1Perm Dude
      ID: 474521710
      Thu, May 19, 2005, 16:36
Newsweek is now saying that was a lie, not just the right wing talking heads.
2bibA
      Sustainer
      ID: 261028117
      Thu, May 19, 2005, 17:11
It isn't true unless it's caught on film.
3Horne_Dawg
      ID: 1011111620
      Thu, May 19, 2005, 17:20
"It isn't true unless it's caught on film."

LOL that is so True in this day and age.

4Boldwin
      ID: 543312819
      Thu, May 19, 2005, 18:15
Just to clarify the thread title, the Muslim harmageddon may be a physical war between christianity and muslims...

...however the Christian Armageddon consists of all the kings of the earth, the entire earthly political leadership taking a stand against God.




Also on another subject brought up, al qeada training manuals explicitly train the thousands and thousands of recruits who went thru Afghan training camps to make that very charge of Koran desecration. Also note how ready muslim clerics were to use just such a charge to call for a jihad against America...which is a new call? That is what taliban/al qeada sympathizers do.

We didn't hear quite so much muslim nashing of teeth when the muslim hostage takers at Bethlehem used the Bible as toilet paper. Tho muslim scholars speak of 'the two books', consider Jesus a prophet, which would make his written word...holy scripture not to be desecrated logically.

Just because some people cannot withstand being held to fair and logical standards doesn't mean we shouldn't.
5bibA
      Sustainer
      ID: 261028117
      Thu, May 19, 2005, 18:29
Theirs is bull
Ours is the real deal
6Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Thu, May 19, 2005, 18:34
"We regret that we got any part of the story wrong, and extend our sympathies to victims of the violence and to the U.S. soldiers caught in the midst," said Newsweek Editor Mark Whitaker in a note to readers.

That doesn't really say, "We lied."

...any part of the story...
leaves a lot to the imagination, but it is not an admission that it was a lie.

7Boldwin
      ID: 543312819
      Thu, May 19, 2005, 18:46
I am amazed Newsweek thinks the 'we have no source but our story is still probably true' defense will hold up.

If it did Rather would still be an anchor.
8Perm Dude
      ID: 474521710
      Thu, May 19, 2005, 19:24
They aren't saying they lied (and I didn't either). They admitted they passed along what might be a lie.
9Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Thu, May 19, 2005, 19:32
I wonder why some people are so completely one-sided when it comes to media bias. Let's take this current story about Iraq.

IRAQ IN TRANSITION THE INSURGENCY
U.S says al-Zarqawi ordered onslaught of suicide bombings

By Liz Sly
Tribune foreign correspondent
Published May 19, 2005

BAGHDAD -- Al Qaeda's self-proclaimed representative in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, personally ordered the recent onslaught of suicide bombings that has killed more than 500 people in the past three weeks, during a secret gathering of his top lieutenants in Syria last month, according to U.S. military officials.

The result was an unprecedented surge of suicide bombings that coincided with the belated formation of the new Iraqi government in late April, undermining the authority of the elected administration before it had had a chance to get to work.

In Baghdad alone, the U.S. military said, there have been 126 suicide bombings since the end of February, up from 25 in the whole of 2004, a sharp jump since the January election that the Bush administration had been hoping would ease the violence.

The majority of the attacks were carried out after the mid-April meeting, at which al-Zarqawi is said to have lamented the decline in insurgent activity after the election. Al-Zarqawi "wasn't happy with how the insurgency was going," a senior military official said Wednesday, speaking on condition of anonymity.


Especially curious that Zarqawi's supposed remarks
are bracketed in quotation marks from an anonymous military official. Keep in mind that there is absolutely no evidence that Zarqawi is alive. Yet this story, along with almost daily stories about Zarqawi leading Al Qeada forces in Iraq, holding secret meetings in Syria, beheading Nick Berg, etc, are never challenged by media critics from the right even though, as Baldwin states,
I am amazed Newsweek thinks the 'we have no source but our story is still probably true' defense will hold up.

Well, I'm equally amazed that that our military can make unsubstantiated claims on almost a daily basis, and the same people who are castigating Newsweek and CNN just accept it as fact.

Bottom line: There is not one shred of credible evidence that Al Zarqawi is alive, other than unsubstantiated reports. Why do some people blindly believe one thing while immediately branding another a lie?





10Boldwin
      ID: 543312819
      Thu, May 19, 2005, 22:44
They have his computer.
11Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Thu, May 19, 2005, 23:02
Well, Mr. B, no one will accuse you of being the "Source" on this one.

12Boldwin
      ID: 543312819
      Fri, May 20, 2005, 12:20
13Judy
      ID: 03531713
      Fri, May 20, 2005, 12:26
No matter what we have to believe another's life lie's before our's. And life is all that matter's.
14Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Thu, May 26, 2005, 11:29
FBI records cite Quran abuse allegations

In the latest disclosure, declassified FBI reports showed that detainees at the U.S. naval prison in Cuba told FBI and military interrogators on a number of occasions as early as April 2002 — three months after the first prisoners arrived at the makeshift prison — that guards abused them and desecrated the Quran.

"Their behavior is bad," one detainee is quoted as saying of his guards during an interrogation by an FBI special agent on July 22, 2002. "About five months ago the guards beat the detainees. They flushed a Quran in the toilet."

Lawrence Di Rita, chief spokesman for Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, said Wednesday that U.S. military officials at Guantanamo Bay had recently found a separate record of the same allegation by the same detainee, and he was re-interviewed on May 14. "He did not corroborate his own allegation," Di Rita said.


This doesn't address the question of irresponsibility on Newsweek's part, but it surely puts an onus on those who flatly said that, "Newsweek lied," and there were many.


15Boldwin
      ID: 543312819
      Thu, May 26, 2005, 11:50
Did you read your own cut-n-paste? The detainees who we know were trained to make these allegations beforehand by al qeada can't even remember their own lies.
16Razor
      ID: 36241218
      Thu, May 26, 2005, 12:02
Re-interviewed, eh? Re-interviewed with or without a gun pressed against his temple?
17Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 428299
      Thu, May 26, 2005, 12:10
Anyone else notice the seemingly increasing number of the right's charges of liberal media bias are turning out to be less founded than they look at first - and how the conservative media all too frequently fails to meet the jounalistic standards that the media critics on the right demand?

US News & World Report
In its May 9 issue, out on May 2, Newsweek cited "sources" saying the incident involving the Muslim holy book would be in an upcoming military report on alleged interrogation abuses at the Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, detention center. This wasn't the first account of alleged Koran desecration--several former detainees have publicly made that claim--but Newsweek was the first to give the charge an official imprimatur. Not until 11 days later, after protests that started in Afghanistan turned violent and spread, did Pentagon spokesman Lawrence DiRita tell the magazine its report was wrong. No such credible allegations were found, he said, and none will appear in the U.S. Southern Command's report.

When Newsweek then went back to its original source, he reportedly reasserted that he had seen investigative accounts of Koran defiling but could no longer be certain that information had been part of the material for the Southcom report. Veteran investigative reporter Michael Isikoff, who wrote the piece with a colleague, said in an interview that his source is well placed and has been reliable. Further, he said that a senior Pentagon official shown the story in advance did not object to the Koran reference. "We didn't foresee the enormously sensitive nature of this particular claim being made about the Koran," Isikoff said. "It didn't leap out to us at Newsweek. It didn't leap out to them at the Pentagon."

Aftershocks. Despite Whitaker's apology, and a subsequent full retraction, the story last week continued to roil the Muslim world and dominate news reports. Even as late-night comedians jumped in, the [conservative -MITH] New York Post, in a separate example of cultural insensitivity, ran the headline: "Holy Shiite-- Newsweek Retracts Its Deadly Toilet Tale." Everyone, it seems, was finding opportunity in what Whitaker called Newsweek 's "public relations agony." Islamic extremists continued spreading the report to stoke anti-American sentiment. Media bashers and hand-wringers weighed in. And the administration deflected attention from other questions about interrogation abuses, stirred by another conviction last week in the Abu Ghraib prison scandal.
And then there was Rupert Murdoch's expose' of Saddam in his drawers - a featured item in his 3 major news outlets, the top cable news network, the top British daily papers and one of the top 10 American daily papers - which of course we have not even heard a peep about from the media critics on the right.
18Boldwin
      ID: 543312819
      Thu, May 26, 2005, 12:50
Razor

We actually have the captured al qeada training manuals training them to make allegations of koran desecration for PR purposes, and you are going to buy their story when they do that every time, and accuse the USA of intimidating them if they don't.

Amazing. What a specimen you are.
19Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, May 26, 2005, 12:51
"Holy Shiite-- Newsweek Retracts Its Deadly Toilet Tale" LOL! Now *that* is a great headline.
20Tree
      ID: 9362211
      Thu, May 26, 2005, 13:00
the Right does not need to meet the same standards. in a dictorship, the media that favors the ruling party has the ruling party on its side.
21Motley Crue
      ID: 52450513
      Thu, May 26, 2005, 13:06
And what about in a Democratic Republic? Or did Bush receive 99.9% of the vote in November and I'm just not aware of it?
22Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 428299
      Thu, May 26, 2005, 14:08
Razor and Baldwin

Obviously, we shouldn't take the words of suspected Islamist terrorists at face value. However, it has already been proven that we should not and cannot take for granted that the people entrust to run our detention centers can be trusted to always live up to the standards our government claims to hold.

Further, from Yahoo (Reuters):
Former detainees and a lawyer for current prisoners previously have stated that U.S. personnel at Guantanamo had placed the Koran in a toilet, but the Pentagon has said it also does not view those allegations as credible
and from The LA Times:
Ahmad Naji Abid Ali Dulaymi, who was held at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq for 10 months, singled out a soldier or noncommissioned officer known to detainees only as "Fox." He said prisoners were forced to sit naked, were licked by dogs, and were soaked in cold water and then forced to sit in front of a powerful air-conditioner.

"But frankly," he said, "the worst insult and humiliation they were doing to us, especially for the religious ones among us, is when they, especially Fox, tore up holy books of Koran and threw them away into the trash or into dirty water.

"Almost every day, Fox used to take a brand new Koran, and tear off the plastic cover in front of us and then throw it away into the trash container."

=====================

Five former prisoners have told The Times of Koran desecration. Jamal Harith, a British Muslim, said interrogators at Guantanamo often kicked or knocked his Koran around. He said guards once deliberately targeted his holy book while hosing down his cell.

"Everybody was upset, but when you are in Cuba you learn to accept," Harith said after his return to Britain. "You accept it as the norm when you are in there."

Other accounts from former detainees have been posted on the Internet. Tarek Dergoul, another British Muslim who was held at Guantanamo Bay, recalled soldiers insulting Islam.

"They used to read the English translation of the Koran with their feet up, mocking, for example saying, 'There are more questions in it than answers,' " he said.

Other times, Dergoul said, they "ripped up" Korans. When some soldiers were rotating out of Cuba they would write obscenities in the Korans.

And some allegations are contained in lawsuits, such as one filed against Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld by seven men held in Iraq and Afghanistan.

One of the plaintiffs is Arkan M. Ali, who was held by U.S. authorities in Iraq for nearly a year, part of that time at Abu Ghraib.

Ali listed 11 incidents of torture and abuse. He said he was twice beaten unconscious during interrogations. He said his arm was stabbed and sliced, his forearm shocked and burned. He said he was locked for several days in a wooden coffin-like box, sometimes naked except for a hood over his head.

But it is his 11th and final allegation that in today's clamor over the Koran that stands out. Ali said U.S. soldiers repeatedly desecrated the Koran in front of him and other prisoners, "including having a military dog pick up the Koran in its mouth."
In my opinion, these claims of former detainees increase considerably the liklihood that Koran desecration (to one extent or another) is something that is occurring or has occurred within our detention centers that house suspected and known "enemy combatants". Obviously, most or all former detainees would have been released because the government was unable to find or hold up sufficient evidence of any connections to terror groups. And given the allegedly large number of current detainees who still haven't been charged with anything, it doesn't look like those standards are too high. So it stands to reason that at least some (probably most) of the former detainees who allege Koran desecration haven't likely studied al Qaeda manuals.
23Motley Crue
      ID: 52450513
      Thu, May 26, 2005, 14:22
It's funny, but I don't think it would be that hard to come up with a story like that, without reading the Al Qaeda manual.

Terrorists aren't always faithful, benevolent, scrupulous fellows who would never lie.
24Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 428299
      Thu, May 26, 2005, 14:33
Motley
Terrorists aren't always faithful, benevolent, scrupulous fellows who would never lie.

Sigh. OK, I'll try again. The people who I say are more credible are former detainees, meaning that the government apparently couldn't connect them to any terrorism or terrorist groups and let them go. So it stands to reason that some or most of them don't have anything to do with terrorism at all.

Unless you are saying that you have some knowledge or insight that some of the above people are in fact terrorists or connected to terrorists. If so, I suggest you look up one of those hotline numbers.
25Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, May 26, 2005, 14:40
However, it has already been proven that we should not and cannot take for granted that the people entrust to run our detention centers can be trusted to always live up to the standards our government claims to hold.

The gov't broke that particularly story, so that example does not support your assertion.
26Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 428299
      Thu, May 26, 2005, 14:47
Madman
The gov't broke that particularly story

So what? It still happened. I'm not blaming the government or their poicies for the incident and I'm not claiming that they covered it up. I'm only pointing out that it happened - despite the standards the our government claims. My point is that the fact that we know abu Ghraib happened means that there certainly could be other abuses there and in other detention centers.
27Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 428299
      Thu, May 26, 2005, 15:03
And I just came across the following, posted yesterday at Daily Dish
FROM THE FILES: Maybe these newly declassified affidavits and depositions taken during the official investigation into Abu Ghraib can illuminate the Koran abuse mystery a little more. The following deposition is interesting because it is by a U.S. interrogator, not an inmate, and refers to a technique within the military-approved term "Pride and Ego Down" that was apparently already in use. Here's the first deposition, dated 5/21/04. It is from someone who was
"part of a five person Mobile Training Team from Fort Huachuca, AZ. The mission of my team was to provide an overall assessment of interrogation operations, training and advice and assistance. My focus was interrogation operations ... The Intelligence Rules of Engagement (IROE) was posted and was very similar to that IROE used in Afghanistan. During my observation of interrogation operations, the 519th demonstrated experience and dedication to the mission. Most techniques required a very specific written plan with a schedule and parameters. The MP's appeared to be in control and professional I did see detainees in various states of undress to include nakedness and detainees wearing towels. The MP's used segregation and stripping as a way to keep the detainees under control and to keep them from talking. On one occasion, I had a conversation with XXXXX, concerning the IROE and interrogation approaches. I gave him examples of approaches including Pride and Ego Down where an interrogator took a Koran, threw it on the floor and stepped on it and Fear Up Harsh where the interrogator had a dog trained to bark on cue if the interrogator thought the detainee was lying. I also explained sleep deprivation. I told him that in Afghanistan the interrogators could use an adjusted sleep schedule for detainees. The conversation was meant to explain why these activities were prohibited or restricted.
This is a little confusing. The person seems to be conflating approved and unapproved techniques - monitored sleep deprivation (approved) and Koran abuse (barred) respectively - and then saying that she was detailing them to show why they "were prohibited or restricted." Both? Why? A subsequent deposition, which appears to be by the same person (but might not be) was taken on 06/30/04. Here's the money quote:
I told him of a story I heard in Afghanistan of a dog used during an interrogation. The dog was trained to bark on cue and would bark any time the interrogator had reason to believe the detainee was lying during the interrogation. I told him this would probably not be allowed but that the presence of barking dogs in the prison might be effective. I told him of a story of an interrogator using and Pride and Ego Down approach. The interrogator took a copy of the Koran and threw it on the ground and stepped on the Koran, which resulted in a detainee riot. .. I never personally witnessed the above incidents, but heard about them from other interrogation facility personnel...
I don't know what to make of this. The witness seems to be saying that s/he was referring to methods that were not authorized, and then s/he says they had already been used in Afghanistan. We may here be seeing part of the confusion in policy that helped make Bagram, Abu Ghraib and the torture in Basra, Tikrit and elsewhere possible, confusion for which no one has been held accountable.
- 11:57:00 AM
Affidavits in PDF
28Dec
      ID: 318412312
      Thu, May 26, 2005, 15:19
The abu Ghraib story shock me when I first heard about it, the newsweek's story about koran abuse is only good to add fuel on fire, anybody in is right mind knews or at least is not surprise that this stuff happens.

Tore up holy books is worst than sitting naked, licked by dog or soaked in cold water. Get your priority straight boy!
29Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, May 26, 2005, 15:36
MITH 26 -- I'm only pointing out that it happened - despite the standards the our government claims.

I disagree. The standard that our gov't claims is that these things (more on this in a minute) are against policy and if soldiers/interrogators do them, they will be punished. Abu Ghraib illustrates our governmental standard insofar as the Pentagon and other agencies were taking corrective action even before public awareness happened. Therefore, that story is not an exception to our standards the way these accusations would be.

But to the broader story ...

assertion: US interrogators desecrated the Koran.

My take: almost certainly true. One of the accusations is that non-believers had the gall to hold the Koran. I, myself, have done this. Another accusation is that interrogators read from the Koran, and expressed their disbelief. Horror of horrors. The Koran has been desecrated and their culture disrepected. Whatever. I have not heard any US official deny these basic claims.

As to the specific allegation of soldiers throwing a Koran down the toilet, I have no idea. There are allegations that Islamic prisoners were doing the same thing. I really don't see what the big deal is, which makes me suspect someone might have done it at some point. I'm not sure whether it was against US policy, and I'm even less sure that it *should* have been against US policy.

Agents working for the US government are not and should not be tasked with toeing the official governmental line about cross-cultural respect at all times. A particular place where deviation SHOULD occur is in the interrogation of non-uniformed prisoners of war. The point of interrogation in such a case is to break the belief structure of those captured in order to ellicit maximum cooperation, limited only by basic rules of human decency (things like no mutilative torture, etc.). The point is most definitely not to demonstrate cross-cultural sensitivity or to reflect general US values.

If an interrogator believes in the Koran with all his heart and soul, I would expect such an interrogator to convincingly act as if he did not (when interrogating those who were motivated by a Koran-based religious zeal to attack us). Anything less and he or she should be fired. What an interrogator does in the interrogation room does not reflect his or her belief structure, nor is it representative of our country's religious mores. Along these lines, if the US has a policy against flushing Korans down toilets, we have bent way over backward in the wrong direction. Context, people, context.

Regardless, Newsweek failed to live up to their journalistic standards. But it was a 13-word sentence in the middle of a broader report. Geez. This was not Rathergate where an entire story was fabricated and clearly dubious sources (er, that should be a singular "source") were cited and where for a full 10 days, CBS made bald-faced lies about "chains of custody" and "document witnesses".

And for all those people who claim that Newsweek should have foreseen the problem, there was a delay of many days between the riots and the initial publication. During that time period, not a single reputable blogger nor commentator who read the Newsweek article predicted the riots.

The reason for this *should* be clear. We are dealing with misinformed zealots who warp and distort everything we say or do. You can't predict what 13 word sentence is going to light them up anymore than you can predict the next jump in a Brownian motion process. In the face of such irrationality, the appropriate response isn't to cleanse every single publication, every single interrogation, etc., of anything the zealots might be offended by.

The appropriate response is to stand tall, stand by your principles, take action to demostrate who you are to the people on the ground in those countries, take action to make the lives of the zealots less comfortable/possible and to give their enemies the freedom to stand up for principles that are at least closer to beliefs we can tolerate. We have totally lost sight of what is going on here. And many conservative commentators I have read (Jacoby from the Globe, David Brooks from the NYTimes, etc.) have made similar arguments. If you have failed to find conservatives making these arguments, it is the failure of the reader, not the writers.
30Boldwin
      ID: 543312819
      Thu, May 26, 2005, 15:40
Razor and Baldwin

Obviously, we shouldn't take the words of suspected Islamist terrorists at face value. However, it has already been proven that we should not and cannot take for granted that the people entrust to run our detention centers can be trusted to always live up to the standards our government claims to hold.
- MITH

Well there we agree. I personally believe the government always has had the 'you can't handle the truth and we are gonna do what works no matter what' attitude when it comes to interrogation. At least ever since the end of WWII if not prior. You'd like to think we are somewhat more civilized but when I hear of prisoners being deported for further torture by governments even less restrained than our own I wonder.
31Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 428299
      Thu, May 26, 2005, 16:01
Madman
The standard that our gov't claims is that these things... are against policy and if soldiers/interrogators do them, they will be punished.

I'm fine with that explanation. My assertion (the one I think you misunderstood in post 25) is that despite that policy, Abu Ghraib did happen.

Therefore, that story is not an exception to our standards the way these accusations would be.

Agreed. My only point in bringing up abu Ghraib was as a partial counter to the outright dismissal of any wrongdoing on the part of Americans regarding the Koran desecration claims. My point was that, thanks to abu Ghraib, we cannot simply take for granted that this sort of thing will never happen. Perhaps you or others might respond to that with a no 'duh type of sentiment, but I felt the point was necessary to establish before I went on. Based on Baldwin's post 30, he sees what I was getting at.

To the rest of your post, I suppose mostly agree, though I'd frame a few of your stated positions a bit differently. Mostly my points today are in response to rightist media critics who have attacked Newsweek and Isikoff (many outright calling them liars), which is the topic I opened with in post 17. I guess I've also gone on to a somewhat tangental topic in response to post 18.
32Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Thu, May 26, 2005, 16:08
Terrorists aren't always faithful, benevolent, scrupulous fellows who would never lie.

Unfortunately, neither is the Pentagon.
See Pat Tillman.
33Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, May 26, 2005, 16:11
William F. Buckley ... In many ways the founding voice of modern conservatism:

But that wasn't enough for the critics, who now included dignitaries close to pro-U.S. chiefs of state in Afghanistan and Pakistan. They clamored for more than Newsweek's regret. They wanted a "retraction." Newsweek hesitated here, on the reasonable assumption that just as the magazine was wrong to proceed to publish the story without sufficient foundation, it would be wrong, without sufficient foundation, to take an Orwellian step into "retracting" it.

The entire column is worth a read, IMO.
...

And with respect to the picture of Saddam in his drawers ... I think conservatives realize there are a lot more important things to worry about.
34Perm Dude
      ID: 474521710
      Thu, May 26, 2005, 16:15
Funny, I read that column when it came out, and agreed with it nearly 100%.
35Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, May 26, 2005, 16:15
Here is the Jacoby column I referenced earlier. Also worth a read. It has a gripping beginning:

IT WAS front-page news this week when Newsweek retracted a report claiming that a US interrogator in Guantanamo had flushed a copy of the Koran down a toilet. Everywhere it was noted that Newsweek's story had sparked widespread Muslim rioting, in which at least 17 people were killed. But there was no mention of deadly protests triggered in recent years by comparable acts of desecration against other religions.

No one recalled, for example, that American Catholics lashed out in violent rampages in 1989, after photographer Andres Serrano's ''Piss Christ" -- a photograph of a crucifix submerged in urine -- was included in an exhibition subsidized by the National Endowment for the Arts. Or that they rioted in 1992 when singer Sinead O'Connor, appearing on ''Saturday Night Live," ripped up a photograph of Pope John Paul II.

There was no reminder that Jewish communities erupted in lethal violence in 2000, after Arabs demolished Joseph's Tomb, torching the ancient shrine and murdering a young rabbi who tried to save a Torah. And nobody noted that Buddhists went on a killing spree in 2001 in response to the destruction of two priceless, 1,500-year-old statues of Buddha by the Taliban government in Afghanistan.


....

From the White House down, the magazine was slammed -- for running an item it should have known might prove incendiary, for relying on a shaky source, for its animus toward the military and the war. Over and over, Newsweek was blamed for the riots' death toll. Conservative pundits in particular piled on. ''Newsweek lied, people died" was the headline on Michelle Malkin's popular website. At NationalReview.com, Paul Marshall of Freedom House fumed: ''What planet do these [Newsweek] people live on? . . . Anybody with a little knowledge could have told them it was likely that people would die as a result of the article." All of Marshall's choler was reserved for Newsweek; he had no criticism at all for the marauders in the Muslim street.
36Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, May 26, 2005, 16:16
PD 34 -- we'll make a conservative of you yet. ;)
37Perm Dude
      ID: 474521710
      Thu, May 26, 2005, 16:18
Just because conservatives sometimes say something intelligent doesn't mean I'll get in bed with them...

:)
38Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Sat, Jun 04, 2005, 10:19
As a follow up to my post in #9, where I questioned the story about Al Zarqawi and officials actually quoting him, comes this correction:

US Intelligence - No Zarqawi evidence

The allegation by the U.S. military official in Baghdad that Zarqawi and his lieutenants met in Syria suggests that, despite the controversy over the Bush administration's use of flimsy and bogus intelligence to make its case for war in Iraq, some officials are still quick to embrace dubious intelligence when it supports
the administration's case - this time against Damascus.
One of the U.S. officials said the initial report was based on a single human source, who has since changed his story significantly.
Another official said the source and his information were quickly dismissed as unreliable by intelligence officials but caught the attention of some political appointees.
These officials and two others said the CIA and other U.S. intelligence agencies were mystified by the reports of Zarqawi's visit because they had no such information.


Why aren't the Newsweek detractors up-in-arms over this careless and irresponsible media? After all, the Newsweek story was a one-sentence sidebar, while the Zarqawi in Syria ordering mass killings in Baghdad story was front page news all over the world.
Is it possible that said detractors only care about media accuracy when they can make the claim that liberal media bias is rampant and the root of all the world's ills?
















39Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Wed, Jul 06, 2005, 23:15
Here's a story not getting much coverage in the Us press:

Oil for Nukes?

International apprehensions that Saudi Arabia would seek to acquire nuclear weapons have arisen periodically over the past decade. The kingdom's geopolitical situation gives it strong reasons to consider acquiring nuclear weapons: the volatile security environment in the Middle East; the growing number of states (particularly Iran and Israel) with weapons of mass destruction; and its ambition to dominate the region. International concerns intensified in 2003 in the wake of revelations about Khan's proliferation activities. The IAEA investigations show that Khan sold or offered nuclear weapons technology to Saudi Arabia and several Middle Eastern states, including Iran, Iraq, Libya and Syria.

Last year's unearthing of the black market nuclear technology network increased international suspicions that Khan had developed ties with Riyadh, which has the capability to pay for all kinds of nuclear-related services. Even before the revelations about Khan's activities, concerns about Saudi-Pakistani nuclear cooperation persisted, largely due to strengthened cooperation between the two countries. In particular, frequent high-level visits of Saudi and Pakistani officials over the past several years raised serious questions about the possibility of clandestine Saudi-Pakistani nuclear cooperation.


It's long article, so I just posted a couple of paragraphs. It is well worth the read.
40Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 20:44
Acts 17:23
By Harry R. Jackson, Jr.
Monday, July 2, 2007



“Allahu Akhbar” --- God is (the) greatest! was shouted by a man as he swung his fists at an innocent bystander in Glasgow, Scotland. The screamer was involved in a botched attack on that city’s airport. He and his accomplice planned to kill or maim enough UK citizens to release a fresh wave of fear over the nation.

What he lacked in skill he made up for in zeal, and, to a certain extent, he succeeded. After all, he made the front page of most newspapers and was the lead story on most radio and television news programs.

Unholy acts of torture, suicide bombings, and beheadings have become choice methods of religious expression for some Islamic radicals. There have been too many incidents to dismiss these attacks as isolated outbreaks. Only the naïve believe that the flare up of radical Islam is a temporary response to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

We ask, “How is it that a tolerant, politically correct society like Britain provokes people to respond to the nation in such a manner?” This is an inappropriate question that presupposes that the West is creating an atmosphere of conflict. A more appropriate query is, “Why is Islam trying to dominate the world again?”

We are observing an age old pattern of Islamic imperialism. This is not the result of U.S. and British foreign policy glitches, alone. These are the pervasive and dangerous manifestations of an ancient ideological war. Traditional-minded Islamic families and mosques are raising a new generation of terrorists as intolerant advocates of jihad. While I would be the first to say not all Muslims are evil, I would be very quick to add that we cannot separate the political aims of Islam from its spiritual goals. Unfortunately, in the name of religious tolerance, western cultures may actually be emboldening a terrorist element in their society.

This past week, terrorism was on the mind of every American traveling overseas. My wife and I were in Greece during the tumult. Modern day Greeks are painfully aware of the nearly 400 years of domination their ancestors suffered under Turkish Muslims. Churches and historic buildings were desecrated during the Muslim occupation of the land. The Greek light of democracy and freedom was snuffed out during a long night of national fear. One of the greatest civilizations in human history lay ravaged and imprisoned by a backward, brutish occupation force that only understood the politics of the sword.

Further, religious intolerance was practiced in Greece just as it is every nation in which Islam has the upper hand. For example, “non believers” paid higher taxes, had no say in the government, and were not free to evangelize others. In some modern nations non-Muslims cannot even enroll in school until they change their Christian names to Muslim names.

Greece was set free because they mobilized a religious revival along with military/political action in 1822. God’s grace helped them overcome horrific odds and turn their nation around. Many people died during Greece’s 400 years of occupation, but until Greek apathy died they were unable to turn things around.

Just one day after Gordon Brown became UK’s prime minister, he had to deal with one of the major threats of the next decade – terrorism and Islamic fascism. It was almost as though his enemies said, “We want the new government to know that they have to deal with us.”

How should the UK and other European countries respond to modern Islamic imperialism? They should be totally intolerant to any immigrant violating their national laws, even in the name of cultural pluralism. Next, countries applying to the European Union, such as Turkey, should demonstrate internal religious liberty and a willingness to accept non-Muslim citizens. Finally, terrorist violence should be punished quickly and fiercely.

Sometimes westerners are so concerned about giving other religions “absolute religious freedom” that they allow these groups to undermine everyone else’s freedom. I have seen video tapes of the kindest looking little Muslim children vowing to kill Americans, Christians, and Jews.

Christians are being jailed internationally for preaching against sexual sins and the gay lifestyle. Conversely, western governments are starting to look the other way as Islamic groups incite terrorism and attempt to set up Sharia law (which violates their nation’s internal laws). Islamic radicals do not feel that our concessions are olive branches of peace; they believe that western governments are so depraved that they should honor the “superiority” of Islam. The west is so afraid of making Muslims mad or appearing racist that they violate basic principles of domestic justice.

The UK experienced God’s grace and divine protection this past week. These attempted attacks should be seen as warnings. Ironically, on the day of these foiled attacks, I stood on the very spot where the apostle Paul brought the gospel of Jesus Christ to Athens. He preached to them about an “unknown God” that had been worshipped in Athens – but not fully understood (Acts 17:23). Perhaps God is telling all of Europe to stop following humanistic and atheistic philosophies. The greatest hope for civil peace in the region, once considered the cradle of Christianity, is to stop acting as though the God of Christianity is unknown to them.
41walk
      ID: 2530286
      Sun, Jul 29, 2007, 10:33
Rapture Ready

Another perspective...different, and I'm sure there are many extreme wings of any religion and "race," but this is one of our's, as in America.
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