Forum: base
Page 11325
Subject: OT - Terrorist attack on US Part II


  Posted by: WiddleAvi - [9830119] Tue, Sep 11, 13:29

Just because the other thread is very big
 
1Sludge
      ID: 56202214
      Tue, Sep 11, 13:33
Seems to me that talking baseball today would be OT, so I can't help but smirk at the title.

All flights in England grounded as well. On a local note, all the stores in our mall here in Lubbock were closed except Dillards and Sears. The managers decided that people didn't need to be out shopping.
 
2KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Tue, Sep 11, 13:34
From Rogue's Strikers, #235 in the other thread: "I hate to play the devil's advocate here, but what if it wasn't Bin Laden?"

We thought that Bin Laden was responsible for the Oklahoma Bombing at the time. At this point, we can't rule out anyone as being responsible for this.

 
3WiddleAvi
      ID: 9830119
      Tue, Sep 11, 13:36
One thing I wonder is....Why would Bin Ladin deny it. This is the type of thing he would be proud of. Or is he just afraid that America will come after him like never before ?
 
4Rogue's Strikers
      ID: 33732119
      Tue, Sep 11, 13:36
Agreed. I just can't think of anything worse though than executing someone for this crime only to find out it was someone else. (Or even worse, killing someone who was innocent and never finding those who were guilty.)
 
5KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Tue, Sep 11, 13:38
Something tells me that Bin Laden is not afraid of America, no matter how dellusional the idea. One thing I found interesting was that Afghanistan is saying that it doesn't have the kind of money neccessary to complete this kind of attack, though we all know that Bin Laden does. Still, I wonder too why Bin Laden would not just smirk at America and say, "Yes, I did it. What are you going to do about it?" He basically did that with regards to the WTC Bombings and even said weeks ago that he was planning an attack on America. Why deny it now? I doubt very seriously that he's afraid.
 
6Rogue's Strikers
      ID: 33732119
      Tue, Sep 11, 13:39
I still can't get the imagine out of my head of people jumping from 120 floors up, and the sight of 200+ firefighters running into the builing to help and never coming back out...

What a horrible day.
 
7beastiemiked
      ID: 17414316
      Tue, Sep 11, 13:39
Don't really have anything to add, I'm speechless.

My sympathies go out to all family members who had someone die in the terrorist attacks.
 
8Begora21
      ID: 1840119
      Tue, Sep 11, 13:40
I don't think anyone will take credit for this.It's not a
bombing that killed a handful of people. This will require a huge
retribution and if anyone takes credit for it they will be severly
punished - - i.e. struck with the full force of the US military.
 
9 Special K
      ID: 08331113
      Tue, Sep 11, 13:45
It is indeed a tragedy. Today is turning out to be one of the most horrific days in American history. My sympathies to those who lost their lives. As far as where the blame is to go - I agree that, we can't take action until we are certain of who is to blame. Wether it be Bin Laden, or Sadam as someone mentioned.

Right now, our primary concern should be those who lost their lives, and sifting through the remains and knowing just how many we lost.

I'm not a violent man by nature. But, this event has brought out a lot of anger and hostility to those conspirators. I want justice just like the next man. I had hoped that perhaps we would never have to go through another War again. But it seems apparent that it might just come to that.

My cousin lives in NY, and WORKS in the WTC. She would have been at work today, if it wasn't for her sister. Her sister was visiting for a week, and was supposed to leave yesterday. She decided to stay an extra day. That's why both my cousins were at home, sleeping in. I pray and thank god that she wasn't at work today. So, it's hit me pretty hard.

So for the long jumbled rant.
 
10blahah
      ID: 397262912
      Tue, Sep 11, 13:47
apparently, from what I've heard...there was supposedly a court hearing scheduled for tomorrow for associate(s) of Bin Ladin in a courthouse across from the WTC
 
11Khahan
      ID: 567232217
      Tue, Sep 11, 13:50
Too many aspects of this POINT to Bin Laden. The only thing that does not is his denial. He just would have no reason to deny this, unless he was surprised to hear he suddenly may not have the backing of some of the mid-east organizations he thought he would have.
 
12KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Tue, Sep 11, 13:50
Special K, no need to apologize for what most of us have been doing for hours now. The whole day is jumbled and it's going to be that way for some time.

I'm glad to hear that your cousin is ok. It's amazing the way things play out like that some time.

 
13Sandlot
      Donor
      ID: 59832108
      Tue, Sep 11, 13:51
as far as I'm concerned, whether Osama Bin Laden had anything to do with this or not, his past actions and increasingly violent anti-American rhetoric more that justify the need to have him eliminated. Yes, he may be "innocent" this time, but I personally could live very comfortably with the knowledge that he had been wrongly executed for today's atrocities. He is a homicidal madman who delights in his role in the slaughter of innocent Americans and Jews.
 
14DR Stars
      ID: 162592010
      Tue, Sep 11, 13:54
This is not 100% acuratte, but news reports here in the DR are saying that the Japanese Red Army is claiming responsibility for the attacks in retaliation forthe bombings in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, can anyone confirm or deny this reports?
 
15Khahan
      ID: 567232217
      Tue, Sep 11, 13:55
Useful link to anybody in the Pennsylvania/Jersey area who wishes to help out in maybe the best way the common citizen can:
American Red Cross
 
16KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Tue, Sep 11, 13:56
DR Stars, I've heard nothing along those lines, but the "kamikaze" style attack probably has something to do with those reports, whether true or not.
 
17Matt S
      Donor
      ID: 57543213
      Tue, Sep 11, 13:56
Begora - If the Americans strike whomever is responsible with full force, I suggest we all dig holes in our backyards. "Full-force" is a term that has changed from sending troops and aircraft to nuclear weapons that could destroy the Earth.

Matt S
 
18Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Tue, Sep 11, 13:57
Dr Stars PLEASE tell us where you heard that!!
 
19KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:00
MITH, he already did: "News reports here in the [Dominican Republic]"
 
20Khahan
      ID: 567232217
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:01
Rampant and unconfirmed rumors will do nothing more than confuse and trivialize what has happened today.
It is difficult, most of the time to separate fact from fiction in a situation such as this, but I find the Japanese retaliation rumors to be very suspect.
Umm, and isn't the red army in China?
 
21DR Stars
      ID: 162592010
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:02
They allegedly confessed to the attack thru a newspaper in the middle east, and its been reported here in the radio as well as on TV.
 
22Khahan
      ID: 567232217
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:04
I wouldn't discount that altogether. But I would place the likelihood of this being retaliation for Hiroshima as that .1% chance. You know, nothing is 100%, so I'd have to say its 99.9% suspect.
Though, it may be true that a terrorist group in Japan claimed responsibility, I still would doubt they actually did this. Already a Palestinian group has claimed responsibility and most are fairly certain they were lying.
 
23KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:05
Khahan, The Japanese Red Army is a confirmed international terrorist group and their "historical goal has been to overthrow the Japanese Government and monarchy and to help foment world revolution"
 
24puckprophet
      ID: 52712723
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:05
plane diverted to whitehorse considered suspicious , cdn forces , fbi on the ground...30 large planes coming into vancouver.....
 
25DR Stars
      ID: 162592010
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:06
There is a Japanese Red Army, I know about it because I studied in Japan for my MBA, and I heard reports of that terrorist organization while there. If these reports are true or not I can't say, but the news organization that is reporting it here is not a smal one, but the biggest news organization in the country.

It could also be that whomever is responsible for the attack is blaming the japanese, and that's why they chose to do it through a middle eastern newspaper and not one of the big news agencies in the world.

Remember I was just asking for confirmation, not stating facts...
 
26Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:07
Sorry, I meant a source. AP, Reuters, Conus?
 
27KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:07
Khahan, the Palestenian DFLP never claimed responsibility. It was reported through an anonymous phone call that they were claiming responsibility, though an actual representitive denies involvment.

I think all this confusion over who is claiming responsibility just shows that we need to be absolutely sure of who is responsible before any action is taken.

 
28Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 447461620
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:09
President Bush is in the air headed to an unknown location. I am in agreement with those who suggest (Bob Schieffer right now reporting that this is the consensus Beltway opinion) that he ought to be back in the White House early this evening for a televised address. He needn't fly directly to wash, but he should be there. It would be disastrous if he were to speak (and I am sure he will speak) from a place that looks like he is "somewhere in hiding".

On the issue of what should be done, I am in agreement with, of all people, Dan Rather, who quoted the line "Revenge is a dish best eaten cold." The attacks today were long-planned, determined, ruthless and thorough. The response should be the same. I expect that public opinion will demand some sort of immediate response -- it's probably not possible to resist that demand. But immediate retaliation is very difficult -- basically you can demand that Afghanistan (if that is where the terrorist lives) give him up, or we nuke Kabul or launch a land invasion. And in the long run, it may be right to treat this as an Act of War on the part of any nations that are *shown* to be shielding and housing those responsible. Certainly the long-run implication of this is that a nation which shields terrorists is considered responsible as if it had committed the acts. But a cool head what is most necessary now, but is hard to keep in this situation.

Pearl Harbor is a common analogy today. But immediately after Pearl Harbor, President Roosevelt didn't order what was left of the U.S. Pacific Fleet to go out the next day looking to hunt down any Japanese units they could find. That would have been ineffective. Determination, not impulse, is what is needed.

Perhaps it's just an emotional difference among people -- and Websites are already filling up with accounts of the different reactions of various people who saw these events from NYC. Many, understandably, react with rage -- people on the street quoted as saying something equivalent has to be done tomorrow. When I saw the clip of the WTC collapsing, I thot I was going to throw up. But after that, I felt a sense of coolness, not rage. Shock, probably.

Toral
 
29Pistol Pete
      ID: 2041038
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:09
To add to the air traffic updates:
Air Force 1 has landed as well. Right down the road at Offutt AFB. I thought I saw a jet on the horizon...I should have waved at G-dub. They announced that no one should enter the Base around 11:30 or so. Now see why.
 
30Sludge
      ID: 56202214
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:10
First things I thought of when I started watching all this were Tom Clancy's "Debt of Honor" and "Executive Orders" novels. The mention of Japan (credible or not) just reinforced the similarities even more.
 
31KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:11
Some of the JRA's activities sound awfully familiar. I'm not trying to say they did it, just that some of their past activities are strikingly similar.

"During the 1970s, the JRA carried out a series of attacks around the world, including the massacre in 1972 at Lod Airport in Israel, two Japanese airliner hijackings, and an attempted takeover of the US Embassy in Kuala Lumpur. In April 1988, JRA operative Yu Kikumura was arrested with explosives on the New Jersey Turnpike, apparently planning an attack to coincide with the bombing of a USO club in Naples, a suspected JRA operation that killed five, including a US servicewoman."

The airline hijacking aspect and the coinciding attacks are right up the alley of today's events. Again, I'm not saying they did it, just trying to show a similarity.

 
32Khahan
      ID: 567232217
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:13
Agreed KKB. And like after any terrorist attack, there will probably be a number of false claims of responsibility.
I read through the page on your like on JRA.
From what that page indicates (see down at the bottom), they hardly seem to have the manpower for an attack such as we saw today.
There are now all kinds of things people are looking at:
Bin Laden's people to be sentenced tomorrow.
Retaliation for events in WWII
Sadam Hussein
Arab conspiracy in general to cripple the US economy which started with the jacking of gas prices.
People are beginning to look at everything as suspect and are finding 'likely' reasons for this attack in both likely and unlikely places.
Investigate first, crush later.
I agree whole heartedly KKB, there is a lot of confusion. Perhaps the best thing for most people to do is tune into known and reliable sources like CNN and quite listening to the conspiracy theorists that are popping out of the woodwork.
 
336-9 With The Afro
      ID: 97969
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:14
Any report on how many planes were shot down? I think the one that "crashed" outside of Camp David may very well have been shot down (not that I blame that course of action).
 
34puckprophet
      ID: 52712723
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:14
US portion of st lawrence seaway closed..
 
35DR Stars
      ID: 162592010
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:15
Where's that PP?
 
36Sludge
      ID: 56202214
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:15
FoxNews reporting two aircraft carriers headed to New York from Virginia.
 
37absolut_cdi
      ID: 52746319
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:15
from canada... all the best to everyone down there
 
38Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:17
I don't think an organization with "6 hard-core members" such as the Red Army could have pulled this off.
 
39Matt S
      Donor
      ID: 57543213
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:19
Global - Over 200 aircraft being diverted to Canadian airports.

Why do I feel an uneasiness about this report?
 
40KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:20
Khahan, I noticed the "manpower" of the orginization also, but you have to remember that organizations like that don't exactly have a "Membership Card". Thus, there is a core group of leaders and thousands upon thousands of followers. But even that number is not neccessary to be taken seriously. For instance, the DFLP has "only" 500 members for both the DFLP and the PFLP (split factions). So a group of 6 core leaders and an "undetermined number of sympathizers" is actually something to be taken very seriously.
 
41puckprophet
      ID: 52712723
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:23
DR...i'm not sure... i guess from about kingston to cornwall...
 
42wizard808
      ID: 22556517
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:36
post #33 -

all reports i have seen in the past hour DISCOUNT
the early reports of any plane being shot down or otherwise crashing near camp david.
 
43sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:39
Just got back and what do I see? MattinglyintheHall...what was the point of your comment on the first thread...and then we'll move on toy our house sarge...?????? Bring it on. 18 yrs w/US Army SF, counter-terrorism and counter espionage work alongside the FBI/CIA...I'm ready any time. Thats why I am SO damned hawkish on this issue. I've been privy in the past, to inside intel which means that I know perhaps more than I would like to as it pertains to international terrorism. There is but one way to deal with a fanatic...violently. They view us as 'the devil'. This in turn means that they feel free to do/say whatever so that we lower our gaurd. Then they are not honor bound to abide by the agreement, since they made the agreement with Satan. Hence their willingness to murder our civilians, while declaring us murderers if even one of their 'non active' faction members gets hurt. As one of my old instructors used to say...kill them all, let God sort them out.
 
44The Left Wings
      ID: 278171114
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:43
To reply to the criticism I got for my early post, I like to say that at least the French and Swiss keep their elegance to themselves (or in Europe). If they get bombed, I don't think they'll call it "an attack on civilization" or things like that.
Also, there are just some things that can never be eliminated: terrorism is one, racism is another. Ok, so you retaliate. What are you gonna do? Bomb the Israeli facilities? Wipe out every single Israeli citizen because they are all anti-America (or should I say anti-civilization)? I am sure that if a war begins, there will be more people who will hate America, especially those countries near Israel who get affected. And amongst those people, there are bound to be some who will turn into terrorists, because the only way to retaliate against America is through terrorism, since it will be foolish to go head on with a big country. And so America has to, in the name of protecting civilization, wipes out another country, and another and another.

And for the record, I believe that civilization contains the bad stuffs like terrorism. Civilization is not utopia, it contains good stuffs like intelligence, but it also contains bad stuffs. They go hand in hand. The world is not perfect, and neither is any civilization. Intelligence will not die, and neither will terrorism. As long as jealousy and hatred live, there will always be terrorism (and violence and war). And I do not believe that either one of these can be eliminated from the human race.
 
45Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:43
Just saw the celebration on the streets of Palenstine. If it is possible to idict an entire group of people for their actions - now is the time to do it. These people - who can parade and celebrate the deaths of thousands - want their own state and sovreignity and ask for the support of others to legitmize their hateful doctrine? They've certainly convinced me that they lack any redeeming human value. Complete refuse that needs to be disposed of.
 
46The Left Wings
      ID: 278171114
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:44
And exactly how many airplanes have crashed so far? And there's one still unaccounted for, right?
 
47sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:45
seems to me I never heard a word of complaint from any of the busineses who were only to eager to accept my dollars/deutsch marks/francs/lira/pound etc etc etc
 
48sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:46
I believe that at this point, there have been 5 planes downed and all others are accounted for (though reports are conflicting on this issue)
 
49ksoze
      Donor
      ID: 50643419
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:49
Hey TLW, go away. Now.
 
50tommyd
      ID: 15912231
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:50
I've read all the posts and I don't know what to say or think. There has to be retribution for these actions, not neccessarily swift, but most definitely harsh and total. I am not an American or a Canadian today, but someone who feels for he people that had their lifes snubbed for no reason. Whatever the U.S. has to do assure that this will not happen or reduce the risk of this happenning, they have my support. My prayers go out to everyone who this has touched, which I fear, is all of us.
 
51puckprophet
      ID: 52712723
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:50
that was a korean airplane diverted to ground in whitehorse.
 
52patjams
      ID: 32734122
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:50
You can bet that the authorities have lists of all passengers on each flight that was hijacked and, by now know who it was that actually hijacked the planes. My guess is that there would be more than one terrorist on each flight. At the minimum one guy to control the passengers and one to fly the plane. It would be very difficult for one man to carry out the entire operation alone. If indeed they thought it was from any other faction than one from the Middle East we would have heard that speculation by now. Reports now are that it is indeed believed to be some from Bin Ladin's group. (CNN)
 
53Twarpy
      Leader
      ID: 3074280
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:52
TLW at a time like this it isn't time for attacking people, I know youre Canadian and I even think you live in Ontario which is closer to NY than a lot of the US. I think if Canada were to be bombed the states would be with us the same way that we should be with them. This isn't even a time to attack the media or the grief that the States feel, as I for one know if I had someone in this tragedy I wouldn't know how to respond.

I don't want to start an argument at this time cause that wont solve anything.

My prayers go out to anyone in the States.
 
54sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:54
Fact: Afghanistan has harbored (if not materially supported) Bin Ladin for some time now.

Fact: Bin Ladin has made no secret of his intent to 'wage holy war' upon America.

Fact: Had we gone in and 'gotten' Bin Ladin say, 3 years ago...today would not have happened.

Fact: We go in 'tomorrow' and take him...it wont happen again.
 
55 Mark L
      Leader
      ID: 4444938
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:56
sarge - I only count four down

AA 77 (Dulles - LA) Pentagon
AA 11 (Boston - LA) WTC north
United 93 (Newark - SF) Pennsylvania
United 175 (Boston - LA) WTC south

Is there a fifth unaccounted for?
 
56beastiemiked
      ID: 17414316
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:56
patjams, I imagine they used some sort of gas or something to knock the passengers unconscious. I really don't see 100 Americans sitting there and not doing anything while their plane is headed straight for a sky scaper.
 
57sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:57
beastie...thats assuming the passengers had a real clue as to what was happening. from the passenger compartment, you cannot see where the plane is going, only to the sides
 
58Dan
      Donor
      ID: 45054169
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:57
I just want to send out my deepest sympathies to all the victims and families in this horrible and extremely tragic event!
 
59sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:58
Mark-4 was my count too, but heard a radio guy say 5....no clue as to where the 5th would have been, or if there even was a 5th
 
60Sludge
      ID: 56202214
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:59
CNN reporting: "Good indications" Osama Bin Laden involved in attacks.
 
61puckprophet
      ID: 52712723
      Tue, Sep 11, 14:59
Lefty is from Vancouver; and i think a tad mal-informed on this topic...or he swiped my prescription....
 
62beastiemiked
      ID: 17414316
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:00
That is true sarge, but flying at such a low altitude would clue them in. Does anyone know if any passengers survived from the Pennslyvania crash?
 
63Species
      Donor
      ID: 304521510
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:03
Myboyjack - post #45.

I really hear what you're saying. I haven't seen the celebrations myself and when I do I will probably have a great deal of anger, but to claim a response of an almost genocidal nature is, in my opinion, a natural but overwhelming response.

If we look at history it tells us that people can be brainwashed into following the ideals of a single man or group of leaders. Throw in all of the religious overtones involved in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict and you have a group of people who obviously are not thinking rationally. The Germans under Hitler are a prime example. Are Germans now amongst the most positively productive people in the world? Yes. They were simply duped by Hitler and his policies years ago.

In a certain sense Americans should keep in the back of their heads our treatment of Japanese Americans after the Pearl Harbor bombing. While there undoubtedly has to be a better way to defend ourselves against terrorists that are living among us, I hope we can do so without another terrible mistake like we made when the last tragedy of this magnitude occured on American soil.

I agree with those that call for some immediate calm while we figure out who was responsible. When we do, a swift and forceful retaliation is undoubtedly required. Nuking people is not the answer. Raiding terrorist organization's headquarters and executing every one of them is an answer.

Just my $.02.
 
64Ender
      ID: 52438315
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:04
I hate to say it, but if they knew they were crashing the plane into a building anyway, I don't see why they would have used tear gas. The passengers were likely dead before the plane impacted.
 
65Rogue's Strikers
      ID: 33732119
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:04
TLW, over 10 thousand people died today, and you decide to lecture us on humanity? Not good timing buddy...

#34, confirmed, just saw it on Global. #39, I feel the same way.

Anyone else see a shocking coincidence between the camera views and the movie Independance Day? When the tower fell, and the people ran from the smoke, it was like I was watching a movie...

All I'm left with here is to wonder how we go on from here. Whats to stop someone from doing something like this again? Is this the start of a new age of war and conflict? Mind numbing questions... God I wish this had never happened...
 
66 Mark L
      Leader
      ID: 4444938
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:05
bmd, both cnn.com and abc.com report that the emergency workers found no survivors. Plane apparently headed into the ground at a sharp angle (struggle??).
 
67patjams
      ID: 32734122
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:05
TLW, "elegance"? Do you mean arrogance?
As for your insinuation that this is not an attack on civilization, once this type of atrocity begins to be accepted and cheered, surely the demise of human civilization will follow. If this had happened in any other country in the world it would be no less an act of cowardice. A sneak attack on innocent lives during time of peace is purely the act of a coward and in my mind there is nothing worse than a coward. No amount of retribution will ever make up for this tragedy. What we have witnessed today will be a part of this world as long as there is air to breathe. The families of the victims, as well as citizens of the world, should be appalled at the act and should EXPECT nothing less than the cooperation of each and every country of the world when seeking justice. As for the celebratory mood of the people in Jerusalem, I will no longer feel sad for them when I see their dead bodies in the street.
 
68Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:07
Species - you're absolutely right, of course. However, I do believe that people who harbor murderers, tolerate their presence, or celebrate in their deeds are just as cuplable as the murderers. Their retribution should be similar.
 
69The_Beast
      ID: 197252915
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:09
Being a 15 yrd old guy i was uneducated enough to believe that nothing justifies war. Until today I would have held firm my belief. If anything has ever justified war it has occured today. War against who though? Afghanistan, terrorism, or whoever caused this disgraceful display must be stopped. After taking the ISTEP(Indiana standard) test this morning for three hours i was oblivious until 10:20 CST that anything odd had occured. No teenager should see a plane fly into the WTC, or 1/5th of the Pentagon missing in smoke. It was a cowardly act and I pray that whoever commited it is punished severly in this life and the next.

God Bless America For Now And Forever.
 
70WiddleAvi
      ID: 9830119
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:11
TLW.. in reference to this post in #44

"Ok, so you retaliate. What are you gonna do? Bomb the Israeli facilities? Wipe out every single Israeli citizen because they are all anti-America (or should I say anti-civilization)?"

I was not aware of any Israeli's being against the US in any way !! I am aware that the arabs are against the US !!
 
71Rogue's Strikers
      ID: 33732119
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:11
Another building on the verge of collapsing... I hope everyone's out already.
 
72Unemployed
      Donor
      ID: 53428912
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:11
Beastie, all the reports I've seen show no survivors. Also before today, if you were in a hijacked plane flying low, would you really think it was intended to fly into a skyscraper?
 
74Species
      Donor
      ID: 304521510
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:12
I hear you Myboyjack.

This is a really horrible situation. Our response must be strong and send a clear message. At the same time I don't want us to overreact and (in a sense) be boardering on acts that are just as horrible as what we've responded to. I hope we can keep our reaction directed to as high a percentage of military/terrorist personnel as humanly possible. Civilians may get caught in the crossfire, but I hope our targets are specific.
 
75Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:14
I think all signs point to someone doing something truly heroic on that plane that went down in Pennsylvania. We'll probally never know what disaster they diverted by crashing that plane.
 
76Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:16
Sarge, go to Iraq and do what?!?!? Move on to Afghanastan and do what??!?! Lybia next? Then China? Cuba after that? Then who? Remember OKC? How certian were you that that was a foreign terrorist attack? Find out who did it. That's the plan.
 
77biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:17
re: Sarge #54:

I agree with the first 2.

The third is likely, though certainly very far from "Fact".

The 4th is so far from "Fact" as to be naive, no matter how much "intel" you have been privy to.

Creating martyrs only makes the world a MORE dangerous place, not a less dangerous one. If your statements reflect what is being taught about terrorism in our military, I can understand why terrorism is getting more affective. To even contemplate parallels to Germany during WWII highlights the absurdity.
 
78Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 38728300
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:21
Toral, great post.

To those who would attack Bin Laden without knowing whether they did it or not: You're just as bad as the misguided terrorists of today. Attacking the the wrong people just because you think they have the capability to do it without finding out whether they did is exactly why we were attacked in the first place.

Also, this diverts resources away from finding the real attackers. And the real attackers should never get away with this just because of our strong sense of revenge.

Measured, proportional response directed only at the guilty parties.

pd

 
79Sludge
      ID: 56202214
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:22
From nfl.com I hope they cancel the games.

Statements from the NFL
(Sept. 11, 2001)

"Regarding Sunday's games, we will make no decision today [Tuesday]. We'll gather information and speak to several parties within the next 24 to 48 hours." — NFL spokesman Joe Browne

"During this time of tragedy, our thoughts and prayers are with the victims of this terrible event. We are in contact with the NFL regarding the decision-making process surrounding this weekend's games, and until we have a definitive word from the league, as difficult as it may be, our staff is preparing to play this Sunday." — Dolphins president Eddie Jones
 
80JW
      Leader
      ID: 83441917
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:24
TLW-

As the person who first used the phrase "an attack on civilization" in this forum, let me point out that I am an Irishman living in Ireland. One who, furthermore, has fundamental disagreements with US policy over the Middle East. So far from being American breast-beating, my use of that phrase was to express the universal nature of the anguish felt at today's attack.
No political or religious convictions can begin to excuse or explain what we all saw today. And speaking as one who lives in a country that has endured 30 years of that sort of bloody idiocy (though never on the monstrous scale of today) I, at least, think I know what I'm talking about.
Vancouver? Don't think so.
 
81Promize
      ID: 30848116
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:24
Here is a quote I heard on TV, that sort of sums up how I feel.

"It's time to stop bring this people to justice, and instead start sending them the hell."

Referring the US Governmant and them always wanting to put terriost on trial, and gently slap them on the hands.
 
82Promize
      ID: 30848116
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:26
Boy, you can tell im still shaken up, but that quote should go

"It's time to stop bringing these people to justice, and instead start sending them the hell."

 
83Promize
      ID: 30848116
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:28
(sigh)
to hell

Think i'll go take a nap...
My mind is a boggle
 
85Sludge
      ID: 56202214
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:32
NBC reporting that president headed back to Washington.
 
86Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 38728300
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:34
Now is not the time to cease being a civilized country.

We do not stop terrorism by resorting to terroristic activities, as much as our heated revenge calls for it. As the lone superpower on earth, our purpose is to bring to those that committed these acts a measure of justice. We got here because we don't start blowing people away willy-nilly because we're pissed we were attacked.

Find those responsible, and bring them to justice.

pd
 
87beastiemiked
      ID: 488291115
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:39
Ender, I mentioned Gas(or any other chemcal weapon) instead of guns because I think it would've been much easier to get a chemical weapon onboard to knock out the passengers than guns. I agree that the passengers would of not be conscious for the collision.
 
88Ender
      ID: 52438315
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:40
Re: Post 75

Myboyjack, I have been thinking the same thing all day. I would be curious to know the details simply to recognize the crew or passengers that may have averted further tragedy (which in no way diminishes the tragedy of their own deaths).
 
89Pistol Pete
      ID: 2041038
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:41
DR Stars- Omaha. He just took off again so the Prez in back in the air.

Well said Species and Rogue.

Where do we go from here? That's a darn good question.

America has another great challenge ahead. In my opinion, this is truly the most unprovoked, drastic and crippling attack to our way of life in history. How we react as a nation is critical...this will indeed be a defining moment in out nation's history. Reports are calling this "the Pearl Harbor of our generation"...and have quoted the WWII Japanese Admiral (can't remember his name...was it Yakomoto?) when he said "I fear we have awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with a great resolve."

This is a time for all Americans to revitalize their patriotism, their pride, and their commitment to the basic American principals of freedom and liberty. We must be strong in the face of adversity. Pray for the victims and their families, for peace and for a swift return to normalcy. We are a mature and experienced democracy. As devasting a blow as this has been, we will recover and be stronger because of it. We will weep, we will mourn, and we will move on with heavy hearts. We will feel an emptiness and a vulnerability. But we will recover, we will rebuild, and we will be a closer and stronger nation after this is all over.
 
90Ender
      ID: 52438315
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:42
Good point, bmd. It would be more probable that they were able to get gas on the plane as opposed to firearms. Each firearm they would have tried to smuggle aboard would have increased the likelihood of getting caught prior to boarding hte plane.
 
91Sludge
      ID: 56202214
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:44
Gas can be smuggled aboard quite easily in a container that looks like shaving cream, for example. But how do you smuggle a gas mask aboard? Wouldn't that be kinda conspicuous under the x-ray?
 
92 Mark L
      Leader
      ID: 4444938
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:47
Gas masks/guns already on these planes, through crew members in on the plan???

Hope the FBI has sealed off the airport personnel at Boston, Dulles, Newark and is interviewing intensely as we speak.
 
93 Mark L
      Leader
      ID: 4444938
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:48
I should say, ground crew members in on the plan.
 
94sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:52
The Admiral you refer to was Yamato. Considered a naval genius by the Japanese.

Mattingly, my point in advocating assaults upon Irag and Afghanistan are really quite simple. The Islamic extremists responsible for this kind of attack MUST have had governmental support from somewhere. The training of jet pilots, the introduction of those same people into the aircraft in question, the getting them even into the country all have attached costs. This type of attack would most likely have been years in the planning. (From initial conceptualization through actual conduct.) For this, the 'head' would need time and support while the whole idea began to grow into fruition. It is well known that both Iraq and Afghanistan have suported attacks upon Americans across the globe. Since the extremists continue to shout "...we are at WAR with the American Satan...", I say fine. If we are at war, lets show them just exactly what the hell war is. When we start flying F117's in and bombs hit the ground before they even know an aircraft is near, when cruise missles start landing every 1/4 mile apart over a 20x20 mile target zone thereby reducing that 400 sq mi turf to one gigantc crater...THEN they will get an idea of just how much they really want this war. Once it is THEIR brothers/sisters/Moms/Dads/sons and daughters dying, perhaps they just might see fit to reconsider their rather tenuous position. I doubt it, but just about anything is possible.
 
951
      ID: 138141011
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:52
Does anyone else see a huge lawsuit coming against the airlines for their security breakdown and resulting loss of 10,000+ lives?

Don't get me wrong, whoever carried out this act is to blame, but many people may also want to blame the airlines so they can get their money.
 
96Matt S
      Donor
      ID: 57543213
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:52
Promize - Just took a nap myself. No ground breaking news in the last hour. :) A nap is definately a good idea (highly reccommended). Now I gotta head off to school. Later and good luck people!

Matt S
 
97KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:53
#46: According to everything I've heard, there are 4 plane crashes (outlined in #55) and that all other planes are grounded and accounted for.

#52: We cannot assume that they would be on the passenger list (could they have gotten jobs as airline crew members? fueler? etc.?), nor that their names would lead us to more info. It's an obvious place to start, but I would hesitate to think that we would get all the information needed to determine responsibility from the passenger lists alone.

#56: I agree that something was done to the passengers in some method. The struggle that seems to have happened in United 93 (the PIT crash) also seems to support that the other planes' passengers weren't able to do anything.

#57: The passengers may not have every clue about what's going on, but one passenger on United 93 knew enough to phone 911 on his cell phone and exclaim, "We are being hijacked!". I think the passengers on these planes, if they were conscious, had enough of an idea about what was going on. I can't see a hijacker taking over the cockpit without anyone noticing something was wrong.

#64: The only reason is to prevent "problems" like what seem to have happened on United 93. I agree that the passengers were either unconscious or dead before the planes hit.

#66: Yes, the sharp angle (45-degrees by most accounts) indicates a struggle. I also have not heard of any survivors, nor do I expect to hear of any.

#71: Given the extent of damage in the WTC area, I suspect there will be a lot more buildings that will collapse before it's all over. The exclusive video on ABC (from a freelance cameraman) shows the damage to surrounding buildings and it looks like most are already on the verge of falling and they're still burning. ABC News is reporting that the "#7 WTC building" is on the verge of collapsing.

#73: You don't need a movie for a perfect blueprint of NYC or any city for that matter. There is plenty of information on the internet. But yes, I agree that the scenes are sickeningly similar to Independence Day. It looks so surreal watching some of the video coming from the heart of the destruction as it happened.

#75: Fully agreed. There is a hero(s) and we will never know their name(s). All signs point to that plane going to DC and for it to crash in a field in the middle of "nowhere" took something more than an accident.

 
98sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:54
I'm sure there will be those who attempt 'wrongful death' lawsuits. However I believe that those would fail under the auspices of a 'reasonableness' test.
 
99White Tiger
      ID: 11334218
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:55
Anyone else here think this is a sign of the end times? I mean all it would take is a couple of nukes and life as we know it will be gone forever ... For those of you that believe in prophecy the pyramid of Giza predicts September 17th 2001 as a day of utmost tragedy ...millions of souls parish ... let's pray that we will all have the strength to survive whatever else is thrown at us in the days,weeks,months and years to come ...
 
100Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 38728300
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:55
sarge, the problem with your reasoning is that these people already believe the United States is responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands of their relatives. You would have us impress upon them something they already feel. [Unless you have some other explanation for the attack? Boredom? Had some C4 lying around?].

Attacking the wrong people is wrong And when you attack before you know it is wrong. Period. Now cool off.

pd
 
101Sandlot
      Donor
      ID: 59832108
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:57
re: #86

bring them to justice? And then what - put those responsible in jail? Sorry, that's not a deterrent. Or maybe we'll put them on an international death row, and then watch the liberal defense lawyers and those against the death penalty drag the matter out in the federal courts and paint the terrorists as misunderstood.

As has been noted many times before, it is high time we stop slapping our terrorist enemies on the hand. Terror? Damn right - we'll show them what terror is all about. Bring the fight to their house, hit them where it hurts. It's time to stop screwing around and get the job done right. Screw the potential international condemnation. Show those murderers that we will exact painful retribution for cowardly acts.

Do I sound angry. Yep. In a steady progression this morning, I moved from stunned disbelief, to tears, to my knees, then I was numb for awhile. Now I'm angry. I'm not alone. Those pieces of crap massacred at least 10,000 innocent people over religion and politics. I get even angrier and sadder as I imagine those passengers that had a clue that they were about to die, and those people in the WTC unlucky enough to have seen those planes coming.

No, bringing them to "justice" is nowhere near enough. War & terrorism is a bloody game. War has been declared on the United States. It's time we show them what we're made of.
 
102biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Tue, Sep 11, 15:58
KKB - I was working in #7 during the first bombing. All we could do was try and imagine how far #2 would fall if it went sideways - looks like it didn't need to fall sideways at all.
 
103White Tiger
      ID: 11334218
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:01
Jeezus Bill good to see ur alright.
 
104sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:01
I'll 'cool off' when I'm standing above Bin Ladins cold, lifeless corpse.
 
105WiddleAvi
      ID: 9830119
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:02
CNN now showing flight tracker. This is something that should have raised alarms alot sooner. It seems like 2 flight were extremly off course for about 40 minutes before it hit NY !!
 
106KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:02
biliruben, my condolences on the loss of any friends/family and heartfelt joy that you are ok. I can't even begin to imagine actually being there.
 
107sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:04
reports now of a passenger on one of the aircraft having called the national crisis cneter at the dept of justice and reporting her flight as hijacked. reportedly she told them that the only weapons she saw were knives and what looked like cardboard cutters. A plastic push knife, could be concealed on the body with ease. Would not set off a metal detector, yet would be just as deadly as one made of surgical stainless.
 
108biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:05
No, no. This was '93 during the "bombing", not today. Do have a lot of friends still there, but as far as I can tell they are all ok.

Thanks.
 
109WiddleAvi
      ID: 9830119
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:05
CNN has now that a flight agent called her husband from the plane saying what was going on. From what they say the only weapons were knifes and I missed the other thing but it sounded like carboard cutters ?? Also she said that all the passengers were herded and kept at the back of the plane.
 
110KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:06
From CNN: Barbara Olson, a flight attendant on one of the flights, called her husband twice during the hijacking and referred to multiple hijackers (more than 1) being present. She said that they had knives and box cutters, and did not mention anything about guns or automatic weapons, etc.

Olson was not even supposed to be on a flight today. She skipped her flight yesterday in order to have breakfast with her husband this morning on his birthday.

Prayers and condolences.

 
111louky
      ID: 527283021
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:07
The fact that 4 plane were hijacked at about the same time has to mean the responsible group had a large network of people in place at the airports. I wouldn't be surprised if this hasn't been in the works for a number of years.

I think the responsible party wanted to hijack 4 planes today, and I think they hit 3 of thier 4 targets. Agree with the post above, someone or something prevented the 4th from it's target.

I can't believe that 4 diferent sets of people went through security this morning proir to boarding those planes. They had to be in place at the airport, and probably for quite some time. I would be surprised if the investigating agencies don't know who the suicide pilots are very quickly.
 
112Sandlot
      Donor
      ID: 59832108
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:08
PD - before you take my comments the wrong way, I don't have a problem with you or really in what you said. I know we're all entitled to our opinion here. I believe that as Americans, it is time to pull together and support whatever actions our leaders decide to take. I, as all of us are, am angry and full of grief over the actions taken today. I needed to vent. I'm better now (but still want those responsibe to feel the horror of what they've done, That time will come, whether in this life or in the next).
 
113 Mark L
      Leader
      ID: 4444938
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:08
Dealing with the perpetrators of these acts is not a matter that involves justice. It is a pragmatic issue of national survival, essentially a military matter. There is a threat to our way of living: what is the best way to eradicate that threat? Figure that out and do it.

IMO this has nothing to do with bringing anyone before a court, a trial, etc. This is not like dealing with the leaders of a defeated Germany who were powerless to continue their mass slaughter. Our current enemies are active and dangerous. They are at war with us. The only question IMO is what means of warfare will be most effective in eradicating them.
 
114steve houpt
      ID: 208461016
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:09
Mark L - have heard FBI has all airport and security personel from Boston for questioning. And all airport video tapes.

thougths - all planes hijacked had very few passengers for size of aircraft. Those flights probably selected for that reasons. Easier to control than full airplane.

Pennsyvania crash info could come early. Black boxes, etc should be easier or retrieve. Plane was in air for 2 hours and 20 minutes from Newark. One newsman said radar track of aircraft very 'interresting'. At one point flight had reached Lake Erie. I am sure intended destination was not a field in Pennsyvania.

NOTE - Barbara Olson was on flight that crashed into pentagon and had called her husband and said plane had been hijacked and all passengers had been herded to back of plane (source TV).
 
115sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:11
well put Mark. These people do not see themselves as 'criminals' but rather as soldiers in a 'holy war'...a jihad. Fine, treat them like soldiers then. As Gen Patton once said, "...you don't win wars by dying for your country, you win wars, by letting the other s.o.b. die for HIS country..."
 
116Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:12
Sarge, post 94:
"Once it is THEIR brothers/sisters/Moms/Dads/sons and daughters dying, perhaps they just might see fit to reconsider their rather tenuous position."

You do realize that that's the exact same line of thinking as those who did this to us? The ones who are being lied to and told that The USA is the reason for all their life's troubles? I don't claim to have a solution, but it blows me away that you don't see that it's quite obvious that those who planned this are precisely the type who subscribe to your ideology.

Kill 'em all and let god sort it out indeed.
 
117Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 38728300
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:13
OK, sarge, you do that. I'll cool off when I know the right people have been caught. Go ahead--shoot first. It's worked well for Isreal. Look how calm it is there. While you're looking over Bin Laden's corpse, the rest of us will be trying to find the actual killers.

Trade your thirst for justice for revenge and you become them.

I have no problem hunting down those who did this. I do have a problem (as should we all), hunting down and killing those who we think did it, the truth be damned.

pd
 
118steve houpt
      ID: 208461016
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:14
I think Barbara Olson is the wife of Solicitor General Ted Olson. Maybe the Barbara Olson killed was a flight attendent. One network said it was wife of Ted Olson.
 
119 Mark L
      Leader
      ID: 4444938
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:16
PD, what would you say the US needs to show before it "knows" who did it? I am not sure whether you are saying that we need to get the best intelligence possible before we take some action, or whether we need to go through the investigation/indictment/trial procedure that we used re the '93 bombing. IMO it would be dangerous to take the latter course of action here.
 
120Sandlot
      Donor
      ID: 59832108
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:17
steve - that was on FOX - they were clear in saying that she was on that flight, and had made phone calls. They said they were mourning a colleague.
 
121sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:17
Thank-you PD, I will shoot first. In war, if you dont shoot first, you generally dont get to shoot at all.
 
122KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:17
President Bush to Address Nation Tonight

Time uncertain.

 
123WiddleAvi
      ID: 9830119
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:18
I don't mean this in the wrong way but I think we are all seeing what Israel has been going through. While alot of people condemed Israel for actively attacking terrorists it seems like those same people are now seeing it hit home and understanding what life is like there. If US had the same thought of Israel of Killing before you get killed could this have been prevented ?? If America had any sort of advance knowledge would we have supported them killing whoever had anything to do with this before they could carry out the attack ?? I think 100% of people would have supported Killing anyone who had anything to do with this before they could carry out this crime.
 
124 Special K
      ID: 388171019
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:19
Sludge - Your mention of Tom Clancy is ironic because they have him on CNN right now.
 
125Pistol Pete
      ID: 2041038
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:22
Exactly, Mark L. I agree 100%.

As my favorite congressman said today when asked if retaliation would be coming, "I think our national security requires it."

Exterminate them like a termite or cochroach as far as I'm concerned. There will always be a threat of terrorrism, but a precedent needs to be set. I can't stand to watch the the replays of the WTC anymore but I'm ready to see replays of a surgical removal of the spreading cancer resposible for this. They've already been given a fair warning.
 
126Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:24
Great sarge. Go to Asia and start shooting. Let us know when your done.
 
127KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:25
WTC Building #7 (47-stories tall) has collapsed.
 
128azdbacker
      Donor
      ID: 51392423
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:26
Building #7, 47 stories, has collapsed.
 
129Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:27
Pistol Pete
"Exterminate them like a termite or cochroach as far as I'm concerned."

Who?
 
130YANKS4PEAT
      ID: 19814614
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:29
captain of first flight out of boston into the first tower lived down the street from me, and one of the highjackers lives in the next town over from me (lowell,ma).
god bless
 
131sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:29
Peaceful negotiation led to Pearl Harbor, it led to the bombing of the Marine Barracks in Lebanon, it allowed the suicide bombing of the Cole in harbor recently. As a veteran, I whole-heartedly endorse the concept of peace and a cessation of war. However as a practical man, living in the real vs idealogical world, I also know that the agreements of peace will only be as valid as is the integrity and honor of those persons entering into the agreement. Since Islamic extremists view us (the U.S.) as Satan incarnate, they find no need to honor any agreements they may be inclined to enter into with us. Hence, the need for total, violent, reaction on our part.

Why am I SO certain that this was the result of Bin Ladin? Look at the calendar. This is the anniversary week of the Camp David Accords. Remember those? When we as a nation told the world that we backed Israel in its claims to sovereignty? Why the WTC? What better symbolic target of American Capitalism could you possibly find? Why the Pentagon? To demonstrate the they can hit us anywhere they want, proving to the world 1)Our impotence against them and 2)How far they can reach. If we do NOT respond with a blatant use of force, do you fully realize the recruiting successes this 'mission' is going to hold for them? We absolutely, w/o question...have utterly no choice but to retaliate, and retaliate again and retaliate again. It must be driven home to them. It must be made clear...conduct THIS type of activity against us, and THIS is what you can expect to happen. And that 'this' has got to be god-awful ugly.
 
132Pistol Pete
      ID: 2041038
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:30
"the spreading cancer resposible for this"
 
133Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 38728300
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:32
Mark L, my point is this: What would be served (aside from our thirst for revenge) by bombing Bin Laden right now, say, tonight? Besides the fact that we don't know if he did it (and strangely, he denies doing it, a bit unkeeping for a terrorist), attacking him or other random terrorist targets puts us on the same moral footing as those we would hunt down, if only we had the courage to actually find out who's responsible and hunt them down.

This was a huge undertaking. You just can't hide the evidence of this kind of thing. It's not going to take long to find out who did it--their fingerprints will be everywhere. Let's plow our resources into finding that group and then track them down.

Sarge is shooting first. Luckily, his has always been the minority view in this country, which is how it's gotten to be so great. Kicking as screaming to justice is how the hotheads on both sides will go in this one.

pd
 
134Pistol Pete
      ID: 2041038
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:32
MITH- oops..."the spreading cancer responsible for this" ...whoever they are.
 
135Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:34
Pete, what cancer? What cockroaches? Do you simply mean all terrorists? Who are they? Should we start with the IRA since they might be closest among visible foreign terrorists? How do we find them?

Sarge I do agree that this is no time for peaceful negotiation.
 
136sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:35
always been the minority? The revolutionary war was not on behalf of 'the minority', nor was the war of 1812, nor the Spainish American War. We tried to sit ou of WWII and look what happened to the world. I'm truly sorry that you cannot see the light, but if not for countless persons throughout or history who believe(d) as do I...you would not be free to voice your opinions here today.
 
137KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:36
White Tiger referred to this in post #99. If you believe in prophecies at all, you should read this.

DAY OF TRUTH" - CALL FOR A GLOBAL FESTIVAL FOR SEPTEMBER 17, 2001

 
138WiddleAvi
      ID: 9830119
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:37
PD....I have no problem with the US attacking all terrorist groups whether or not they are responsible for this. Why do I feel this way ?? BECAUSE THEY ARE TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS !! THEY ARE UP TO NO GOOD. Whether they did this or not is almost beside the point. They are terrorists and by ridding the world of them it will only do good. Kill every terrorist in the world now before they can do anything ever again.
 
139GoatLocker
      ID: 44461114
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:38
OK,
Haven't had anything to say, because I'm still in a state of shock.
I've still got a lot of friends that work in the Pentagon.
Went in to work not kowing what to expect there, but they went to ThreatCon Delta and sent all non-military away.
My sympathies are with all the family members who lost loved ones today.
The key to what happens in response is one of doing the Right Thing.
Whatever that might be.
It is way too early to know the answer to that issue right now.

Every body needs to step back and take a deep breath and say a prayer.

Cliff
 
140Pistol Pete
      ID: 2041038
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:38
I agree Perm. Let's find 'em and fix 'em. That's what we're best at...our should I say that's what our military is best at. I disagree that it will take a long time. The terrorrists will be uncovered soon enough. Not tonight, but soon enough.
 
141KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:42
I particularly like #1 in the list of "things we can do as we move towards this event."

"1. Take time before this date to personally examine our own lives and priorities as citizens of Earth in this time of transition. This is a wake-up call."

How true this is.

 
142Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 38728300
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:42
Sarge, this thread could not possibly be long enough to teach you the history you'd need to learn to intelligently post on the events you mention.

Flashback to Oklahoma City bombing: Hours after the blast, are you on the plane to Lebanon, C-4 stuffed in your duffle bag, to get into your explosive pissing match? No, you find out who's responsible, bring them to justice in front of the world, and execute them.

Open your eyes, Sarge. You speak for no one when you refuse to even think about who did this before you start shooting. Look first, shoot second.

pd
 
143 Mark L
      Leader
      ID: 4444938
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:42
PD, I think bin Ladin has demonstrated that he is a special case, deserving of a Mossad-style assassination. If we are sure we know where he is I would have no problem bombing him. Would not favor undifferentiated bombing of places where he might be.

In this case, I think that finding the people responsible should be equivalent to killing them. Tracking them down and bringing them somewhere is counterproductive. We did not bring Japanese admirals on battleships back to the US for trial, even for war crimes. We sank the ships. This is a war and I would object if only the other side decides to fight it. The problem is that the techniques for fighting this kind of war require a great deal of precision and discipline.
 
144Sandlot
      Donor
      ID: 59832108
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:42
I am a Tom Clancy fan, having read all of his books with the exception of The Bear and the Dragon (reading it now). Like Sludge, I immediately thought of the scenario of the Japanese pilot plowing his 747 into the steps of the capitol building, basically wiping out our entire government. He also had the book that told of Islamic extremists visiting biological terrorism on our soil. And another telling of a nuke going off at Mile High during the Super Bowl.

Until today, I thought Clancy a pretty imaginative author. I still can't believe we're actually living a scenario that could be taken right out of one of his books. I can't believe that at least 10,000 of our countrymen have been slaughtered. How the hell did our world leap straight out of the pages of a work of fiction?

May God in Heaven have mercy on all of us.
 
145KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:44
CNN Reports that Bush will address the nation at approximately 9pm ET
 
146Pistol Pete
      ID: 2041038
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:45
Life imitating art, maybe?
 
148Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 38728300
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:46
Sandlot, actually, the word is that Clancy does a hell of a lot of research on his novels. The government, particularly the military, are embarassed to continually find secret weapons ideas exposed on the pages of his novels.

A few years ago they asked him to be on an advisory committee for them. He refused, since he knew that they were quite apt to tell him a wide-variety of secret information that he would never be able to use in his books.

pd
 
149sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:47
PD...The attack on OKC was conducted in a fashion different from what we have experienced by terrorist organizations in this country before and since. To answer your question...No, I wasn't. I didnt believe it to be the work of an international terrorist group. Too remote of a target, lacking in the neccesary symbolism. Too sparsely populated to generate the national pain a terrorist group seeks. Fact is, this country is too damn big for a singular attack to hold the kind of symbolic meaning they thirst for. It would take either a coordinated assauly as we saw today, or a truly diabolical one. ie nerve gas released in multiple subway tunnels or the poisoning of a major metropolitans water supply. You need to first understand the intent of the terrorist, then study their methods. Once you do that, you begin to grasp their mindset. I never believed an international group headed up the OKC bombing...I do believe that Bin Ladin, who said 3 weeks ago that the US would soon experience an unprecedented assault...is responsible.
 
150White Tiger
      ID: 11334218
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:53
Krazy K I have been dreaming of this day for a long time, I have been working on my spirituality for a long time. Certain things have lead me to a place I could never imagine (I was left for dead in a horrific car accident almost 2 years ago) and I believe I have been on a path of destiny ever since ... I see things now that I could never have imagined seeing before ... I feel an inner terror today that this truly is the begining of the end ... unless those few who truly know the magic of our world will stand up and help us fight ... I truly hope I am wrong and that we will only get stronger from this incident ... Until the 17th, I will not live easy ...
 
151Dec
      ID: 48541115
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:55
re: #131 And the blow them all method led to Vietnam... Explain to me how can you stop somebody ready to kill himself?
 
152azdbacker
      Donor
      ID: 51392423
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:56
Perm Dude "Sarge, this thread could not possibly be long enough to teach you the history you'd need to learn to intelligently post on the events you mention."

What a pompous statement. Who are YOU to believe that only you could possibly have knowledge of the events in question? I do not necessarily disagree with your side of the argument. I do, however, think that was one of the most arrogant and condescending remarks I have ever read.
 
153WiddleAvi
      ID: 9830119
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:56
CNN has that there have been explosions Kabul, Afghanastan...America retaliation ??
 
154Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:56
Re post 136 sarge
If I remember my AH correctly, we don't know who shot first in the first battle of the American revolution. Also, it has been widely speculated for years that the The US knew all about Pearl Harbor months before the attack.
 
155azdbacker
      Donor
      ID: 51392423
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:57
Aircrafts and explosions in Kabul.
 
156Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 38728300
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:58
sarge, I think we'll find out very soon, as I said.

His denial, however, makes absolutely no sense (I'm sure even you see that). A terrorist loses his ability to cause disruptions without claiming responsibility.

Bin Laden has also been declaring the US to be "under attack," "about to have the fire of Allah rained upon them" and so on for quite some time. I'm sorry I don't have the link anymore handy--it was through an Israeli site of a few weeks ago, probably through the Meir Kahan sites.

I'm all for taking him out (and that's probably what will happen) if it's him, Khadafi, Hussein, or anyone else.

But make no mistake: these terrorists want to die in a hail of US bombs. It justifies their existence and gives their supporters the proof they need to conduct lower-level activities for as long as they can. There's nothing like a perp walk to bring some sense that justice is being done.

pd
 
157biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Tue, Sep 11, 16:59
I suspected we had the exactly wrong president for this situation. I hoped I was wrong.
 
158azdbacker
      Donor
      ID: 51392423
      Tue, Sep 11, 17:02
Hopefully President Bush will be announcing the death of those responsible in time for his national address this evening.
 
159Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 38728300
      Tue, Sep 11, 17:04
adz, to presume that this country was founded on a "shoot first" mentality, and to give examples is which the opposite actually occurred, is a complete whitewash that needs a strong solvent to come clean.

Arrogant? Sure. So is the presumption that we need to take people out because we think they might have done this act, not whether they actually did it.

Regardless, we need to get behind our leaders as they seek out those responsible. We are not called to be patriots now, not partisan.

pd
 
160jedman
      Sustainer
      ID: 2702357
      Tue, Sep 11, 17:08
I just got back from our local blood bank. It took 3 hours to finally get to me to donate blood. I was so proud to be an American when my partner and I walked in and saw all those people there, old and young, male and female. It was an honor to wait that long with all my fellow countrymen, trying to do anything we could think of to help out in this tragedy. Thank you to all those who suggested donating blood and may I encourage more to do it.
I too have read all of Clancy's books and have had this horrible surreal feeling that this is all going to go away tomorrow and be a dream.
One of the young me who works for me has a father who is back in D.C. working at the Pentagon. I was so glad when I came back and saw him here for work, a big smile on his face. He said his father was in a building right next to the Pentagon and saw the whole scene unfold right in front of him, the plane coming, crashing into the building and the aftermath. What a terrible day.
 
161Lutefisker
      ID: 3182118
      Tue, Sep 11, 17:10
While we need to be sure who did this before we shoot. We than must shoot with both barrels...
or cease being a superpower.


 
162White Tiger
      ID: 11334218
      Tue, Sep 11, 17:11
What the hecs going on in Kabul? U think Bush would strike this soon!??!
 
163puckprophet
      ID: 52712723
      Tue, Sep 11, 17:11
... ace bailey reported to be on one of the planes.
 
164azdbacker
      Donor
      ID: 51392423
      Tue, Sep 11, 17:11
Reports intercepted today from Bin Laden's camp suggested 'we hit two targets' according to CNN.
 
165White Tiger
      ID: 11334218
      Tue, Sep 11, 17:13
I have a feeling the government knows it was Bin Laden that's why they are attacking Afghan .... missiles in the sky!
 
166azdbacker
      Donor
      ID: 51392423
      Tue, Sep 11, 17:18
Explosions in Kabul not necessarily from US. Kabul has been the center of a civil war for some time. Wouldn't even put it past Bin Laden to do it himself for PR reasons. Explosions were termed 'not typical' of normal fighting, however.

PD - while you disagree with sarge's position, he has not in any way shown himself to be uneducated - just differing in opinion. The fact that the 2 of you see the same events differently does not necessarily make him, or you, uneducated. You just have different perspectives of the events in question. I would not be so hasty to by condescending/devisive at a time like this. I think the conversation, if necessary, needs to allow for discussion of varying opinions without personal attacks.
 
167J
      Sustainer
      ID: 34451212
      Tue, Sep 11, 17:20
man, first this, now I hear stamps are going up to 37 cents next year!
 
168azdbacker
      Donor
      ID: 51392423
      Tue, Sep 11, 17:22
And many would question - like they would with the events discussed - whether or not this is would be a 'shoot first' response. There is plenty out there to indicate that Bin Laden is involved. And we, as citizens, likely know very little of it. But when someone is on record saying, "It is the duty of any Muslim to kill Americans", and when his representatives have said today over private airwaves, "We hit 2 targets" (acoording to Orren Hatch), I think there may be enough evidence to attack.
 
169Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 38728300
      Tue, Sep 11, 17:23
adz, you're right, of course. I'm guilty of the same thing I'm accusing sarge of doing.

sarge, my sincere apologies. I think we actually agree on what should be done to those responsible. We differ on the process, however.

Trying to confirm US responses, but not finding too much solid information.

pd
 
170GoatLocker
      ID: 44461114
      Tue, Sep 11, 17:25
An act of war.
I keep hearing this and questioning the thought process.
If it is an act of war, who do you declare war against.
Only answer I have is every terrorist group world-wide.
Take out the leaders of every terrorist group and see what that does.
I know that my statements will not bode well with everybody, but that will get their attention.

Cliff
 
171azdbacker
      Donor
      ID: 51392423
      Tue, Sep 11, 17:25
Don't know if this is new news or not, but all Capitol Hill buildings have been evacuated and DC is in a 'State of Emergency'.
 
172biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Tue, Sep 11, 17:27
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Explosions lit up the night sky in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), CNN reported on Tuesday.

The Cable News Network showed footage of a series of flashes and flames in the Afghan capital.

``There are missiles flying across the city ... apparently large incoming missiles,'' a CNN reporter said.

 
173azdbacker
      Donor
      ID: 51392423
      Tue, Sep 11, 17:28
Perm Dude, you've restored my respect for you. ;)

We all (mostly) want the same conclusion. No need to be overly divisive, particularly today. Maybe next week, maybe come election time - but not today.
 
174Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Tue, Sep 11, 17:30
Well said Dbacker.
 
175GoatLocker
      ID: 44461114
      Tue, Sep 11, 17:32
Good comment azdbacker.

PD, ditto what azdbacker said.

Cliff
 
176sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Tue, Sep 11, 17:32
I vote azd for an ambassadorship. Nice piece of work guy.

PD-by no means do I intend to imply/question yours or anyone elses patriotism. I just 'know' from experience, these things (international terrorists) grow head after head after head. Never seeming to die. Only way out, is as per The Red Brigade in Germany in the 70's....coordinated, deliberate, massive manhunt/retaliation thereby eliminating the organization. New ones will always sprout up, but they will take time to become the type of terrorist force Bin Ladin has created. We dont eliminate terrorism by eliminating Bin LAdin, but we do slow it down..ALOT.
 
177azdbacker
      Donor
      ID: 51392423
      Tue, Sep 11, 17:32
Explosions 'not part of a US attack' according to Wolf Blitzer. Not sure who his source was.
 
178KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Tue, Sep 11, 17:32
CNN Reports that the attacks in Afghanistan ARE NOT, repeat NOT, part of an American retaliation. The White House is insisting that the attacks are part of an ongoing civil war in the area.
 
179GoatLocker
      ID: 44461114
      Tue, Sep 11, 17:33
Sarge 176,
Better job of saying what I was trying to say in 170.

Cliff
 
180sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Tue, Sep 11, 17:34
Civil War has been active in Afghanistan for qquite some time. I cant recall the names of the two factions, but the leadership of one was bombed yesterday and there have been conflicting reports on his status ever since. Most likely, the explosions in Khabal are retaliatory strikes from that faction for yesterdays bombing attack upon their leadership.
 
181StLCards
      Sustainer
      ID: 417433018
      Tue, Sep 11, 17:34
Goatlocker, I tend to agree. I have not read all of these posts and there is no way I can now, but I think back to Reagan and attacking Khadafi, killing some of his family members in the attacks. Direct hits on terrorist leaders themselves are effective.
 
182 Special K
      ID: 388171019
      Tue, Sep 11, 17:35
CNN just showed some Amateur video of the 2nd plane crashing into the wtc building. It was a perfect angle, and it was just...god can't even describe it.
 
183GoatLocker
      ID: 44461114
      Tue, Sep 11, 17:35
It is way to early for US retaliation.
Any retaliation will take two to three days to put together and make happen.
Trust me on this one, I know it for fact.

Cliff
 
184sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Tue, Sep 11, 17:38
absolutely correct Goat. 24 hrs or so to even select the target. Then figure 12 hrs minimum to determine asset requirements. 24 more to plan the flight paths (assuming an air strike obviously). Then brief your pilots, allow your flight leader to do his job...Minimum...72 hours. No probable strikes by our military until I'd guess at Fri at the earliest. (Unless our govt is in possession of intel which has given them a 'heads up' but not sufficient data to determine what/where/when the attack was coming)
 
185sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Tue, Sep 11, 17:39
btw PD---you NEVER have to apologize to me for holding your ground on a position. It's one of your fundamental rights my friend.
 
186Texas Flood
      Donor
      ID: 12458220
      Tue, Sep 11, 17:42
as far as declaring war i think we should start with the "laughing muslims" as seen on CNN. personally i would like to see these sub human rat bastards turned into a pile of charred flesh as soon as possible. grease em all!!!!







 
187James K Polk
      ID: 355352418
      Tue, Sep 11, 17:55
I've been busy as hell this morning with all this going on -- special section, etc. -- and this is the first time I've been able to look at the boards. Only have a second, but wanted to say to walk how glad I was to see your posts in the first thread. That's what I logged in to look for.

Hope all other NYC-area gurupies are OK as well, of course.
 
188GoatLocker
      ID: 44461114
      Tue, Sep 11, 17:57
Mr. Pres.
Looks like all of the New Yorkers have checked in.

Cliff
 
189James K Polk
      ID: 355352418
      Tue, Sep 11, 18:00
That's awesome. Very relieved to hear that. Thanks GoatLocker.
 
190Piccolos
      ID: 54828116
      Tue, Sep 11, 18:01
The Taliban group has claimed responsibility for the attacks in Kabul and he says there are more to come. This is utterly disgusting.
 
191azdbacker
      Donor
      ID: 51392423
      Tue, Sep 11, 18:02
Can't imagine what it's like to live in a country where you can make a statement like "Oh, those were just typical 2am explosions. No biggie." The rarity of events like today is another reason to feel blessed to be an American. (Or Canadian, etc..)
 
192azdbacker
      Donor
      ID: 51392423
      Tue, Sep 11, 18:04
There will be no flights until a minimum of 12 noon tomorrow. Other reports say that flights may be delayed 'indefinitely'.
 
193Eat Acid
      ID: 46759271
      Tue, Sep 11, 18:07
What about KB? Forgive me if I missed him in thread one, pretty sure he's from NY.
 
194wildyams/katietx
      ID: 3483513
      Tue, Sep 11, 18:08
Bilirubin...I'm going to take exception to this.

as quoted "Creating martyrs only makes the world a MORE dangerous place, not a less dangerous one."

The bleeding heart liberal anti-death penalty folks cried over Timothy McVeigh being executed. Then there were those that said it would only serve to make him a martyr and induce other acts of its kind. I don't see that that has happened. I believe that McVeigh will fade into obscurity...so much like Idi Amin, et al.

As far as the military training is concerned. One question...have you served? I have not actually worn the uniform, but spent the first 19 years of my life in the AF. Overseas for quite a bit of it and in a country where terrorism against Americans was the rule-North Africa. In fact, there were many times that the Arabs wanted to make their point by shooting at the school busses as they carried military personnel to school. Brave act, yes? Having been in direct contact with 2 people who had the highest of security clearances (my mother worked at the CIA), I can tell you there are many, many things that the general public is not privy to. Anti-terrorism training involves dealing with those who do not fight "fair." So, what do we fight those people with? Words? Peace accords? Chocolate cake and a glass of milk?

In this instance force must be met with force. Any country (as stated in an earlier thread) that harbors a terrorist group, should be treated as a perpetrator. Is the person involved in a bank robbery where a police officer(s) killed not as culpable as the actual shooter? The same goes here.
 
195sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Tue, Sep 11, 18:10
lmao Mr Khaddafi (sp?) has just called upon the Muslim world to support the Americans in this tragic day. Wonder how worried he is that we might hold some piece of data giving us reason to believe Libya had even some small minuscule part in this?)
 
196wildyams/katietx
      ID: 3483513
      Tue, Sep 11, 18:11
re post 167....what an a**hole
 
197wildyams/katietx
      ID: 3483513
      Tue, Sep 11, 18:13
Cliff....#170...I agree with you...that's 1!
 
198GoatLocker
      ID: 44461114
      Tue, Sep 11, 18:14
Good post katietx.
It really goes deeper than that, but I'm just not up to trying to write about it right now.
Suffice to say that a lot goes on that the general public will never ever know about.

I'm working real hard at trying to control my thoughts right now, might be harder to do in the next couple of days after we get word out of the Pentagon.

Cliff
 
199sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Tue, Sep 11, 18:19
dont I know what you're saying (and trying so hard not to say *S*).

As angry as I am now, (as if noone could tell), I'll gaurantee you that once a day or two has passed, and calm rationale thought processes are fully restored, the anger will only multiply. Looking at the pure criminality of the act, the utter heartlessness and absolute self-righteousness that such an act would require, is beyond anything I've ever attempted to seriously comprehend. Then add to that, the surely inevitable news broadcasts showing select Muslim populations as actually rejoicing...and the desire to watch someone very specific as he writhes in agony from a well placed bullet, will become almost a therapeutic concept.
 
200azdbacker
      Donor
      ID: 51392423
      Tue, Sep 11, 18:19
katietx, some people deal with tragedy by attempting humor. I'm assuming that's what J was doing, and it's the only reason I haven't exploded at The Left Wings for the most ignorant and heartless post ever on these boards. I have to assume it was just a weak attempt at humor, because i couldn't imagine someone making a post like that in seriousness.
 
201J
      Sustainer
      ID: 34451212
      Tue, Sep 11, 18:26
excuse me, wildyams/katietx: did I offend you in some way?

On the front page of today's Atlanta newspaper, is
1) The bombing of course
2) Post Office announces stamps will be increasing from 34 cents to 37 cents next year
3) McDonalds monopoly scam.

I have family in NY, I have family in DC. I'm deeply troubled by everything thats happened today and my prayers go out to all involved.

Can you please enlighten me as to how I'm an a$$hole again?

Thanks,
J
 
202sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Tue, Sep 11, 18:32
J...katie just went to a function, so she isnt here to respond to you. However, she doesnt take take kindly to 'making light' when a significant event has occured. She couldnt tell from your referenced post, whether you were seriously upset about that news or not and given the comparative news of which we are all too aware, she felt the comment to be disrespectful.
 
203biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Tue, Sep 11, 18:32
Wild/Katie - No, I haven't served in the military. Am I now not allowed to state my opinion?

Please keep my comments in context:

Sarge:
Fact: We go in 'tomorrow' and take him...it wont happen again.

Bili:
The 4th is so far from "Fact" as to be naive, no matter how much "intel" you have been privy to.

Creating martyrs only makes the world a MORE dangerous place, not a less dangerous one.
-------

Exactly what do you take exception to? Do you disagree with me and think killing Bin Laden will forever stop terrorist acts? Do you disagree with me and say that making martyrs will make this work safer?

You go off on a tangent and make assumptions about my beliefs that I never stated (and don't hold). You assume that I don't think we should kill, or least bring to justice, Bin Laden if we determine he is behind the bombing of the trade center. You would be wrong.

The last time the trade center was bombed, I was almost killed. I think that equals your army brat story (of which I was one as well).

All I was doing was correcting Sarge. He stated things as facts that weren't facts. In fact, they were the opposite. All I did was call him on it, and I haven't seen him defend them.

Why don't you reread the thread and get YOUR facts straight.
 
204GoatLocker
      ID: 44461114
      Tue, Sep 11, 18:33
Sarge,
The kicker is that my entire mental state will change one way or the other when I find out the status of close friends at the Pentagon.

Cliff
 
205Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 46818119
      Tue, Sep 11, 18:34
J was making an attempt at humor, I'm sure. Let's not make him a target too.

katiex, while I admire your sentiments (and echo many of them myself), this is not about those who believed that McVeigh should not have been executed. (FWIW, I believed McVeigh should not have been allowed to be a coward and should have had to pay a real price for his crime.)

The House Speaker just finished, and as he pointed out everyone, Dem and Rep are "shoulder to shoulder" on this one.

pd
 
206sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Tue, Sep 11, 18:39
biliruben...

The reason for my stating those 4 points as 'FACTS" are many fold. First and foremost, you need to understand what is required for a terrorist organization to even begin, let alone thrive. It takes a very 'special' kind of leadership. A combination of charisma and sophistication which comes along in combination, in one person, with great infrequency. Bin Ladin is such a man. There are few, VERY few like him. Add then, his incredibly sharp intellect. (Yes, whatever else he may be, Bin Ladin IS an extraordinarily intelligent man.) Incredibly few terrorist leaders could have evn conceived of this attack. Fewer still, could have begun to gather the slightest amount of the resources required to execute the attack, and even fewer yet, would have the charisma to gain the correct following to allow for the attacks attempt. All 3 things taken into consideration, have to exist in one person, coupled with patience (not a terrorists strong suite), coupled with a few other intangibles. Hence, I say that IF we had taken Bin Ladin 3 years ago, this attack would not have occured. Why not? The single leader capable of getting the job done, would be gone. The same logic or extension of reasoning, applies to why I maintain #4 is also fact.
 
207sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Tue, Sep 11, 18:41
absolutely Cliff and my best goes out to you, them and their respective families. email me if you'd care to and I'll give you my ph nr. anytime you feel a need to talk, just give me a holler. Sorta 'been there done that' if you know what I mean.
 
208azdbacker
      Donor
      ID: 51392423
      Tue, Sep 11, 18:42
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with the truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness."

We as a nation must stand against these 'rulers of the darkness of this world'. In order to do so, we must have truth and righteousness on our side. Once we know the truth, we can act with righteousness and power as a nation to stand against those who are responsible.

My prayers go out to those that suffered and died this horrible day, and those who have had their sense of safety and security stolen today. We as a nation must stand together.
 
209azdbacker
      Donor
      ID: 51392423
      Tue, Sep 11, 18:44
According to CNN, at least half of the 400 or so firemen originally sent out to the WTC are presumed dead.
 
210Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 46818119
      Tue, Sep 11, 18:49
Just started a new thread since this is getting so long.

pd
 
211letter j
      ID: 265101412
      Tue, Sep 11, 18:50
Not that I believe that Bin Laden is not responsible.

However, as a Canadian, our Country in the last ten years has seen far too many travesties of justice (Marshall, Millgaard, Morin, Michaud, etc.) to jump the gun and convict before some proof.

Sarge does make some good points, however.

The proof's in the puddin'. When there's proof, I say : kick his a**. Until then, wait and see.

letter j

And not as an afterthought, but my heart goes out to all touched by this heinous act. Truly disgusting and cowardly whoever is responsible.
 
212Pearl St. Punisher
      ID: 56161114
      Tue, Sep 11, 18:52
The World, as we know it, will never be the same after today's events. No matter who you are, your life is affected. It will be felt in your immediate life for the next year or so, and the ripples will go on into history. My heart goes out to everyone in America, especially the victims.

-Punisher
on the most focked up day in American, and possibly World history.
 
213biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Tue, Sep 11, 18:59
Sarge - I agree with you. #3 likely is true, but short of a fact. Even with little smarts, alot of luck and a few exacto knives, I could see a few extremists getting the job done (at least regarding one plane and one tower), regardless of the backing.

Regarding #4 - There will always be extremist nutcases in the world. I agree that the combination of charisma, smarts and money adds Bin Laden to a higher level of nutcase. I think the world situation has be taken into account at the same time, however. Extremists will always be around, but they are usually impotent, because they don't have followers. Only when the moderate positions in society are shown to be fruitless and untenable, and people are unable to envision an acceptable life within the structure of the society they have been born into, do they turn to the followers of the extremists. Certainly his money and charisma give him an extra advantage in recruiting those who have a feeling of powerlessness and desperation when they consider to world around them.

I think you are right in some respects. If we remove Bin Laden and his millions from the equation, we will remove, for the short-term, the ability for someone to wreak the kind of havoc we have seen today.

But the moderate position - to work within the system - is still considered to be untenable for many Islamic peoples. That's where we should try and change things. Not just keep killing the nutcases, because that is a never ending job.
 
214Jay-P
      ID: 47132140
      Tue, Sep 11, 19:00
I haven't been around these boards in a long time, but due to the severity of this sick and heinous act of violence on innocent civilians at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, I would just like to say that my thoughts and prayers are with any Gurupie in the New York and Washington, DC areas as well as anyone here with friends and family members that work at the World Trade Center.

This is truly a sad day in history and to echo the words of former President Franklin D. Roosevelt after Pearl Harbour, "This day will live in Infamy!"

Despite the cruel and utterly deplorable nature of the incident or actually these incidents today, I disagree with post #194 in that fighting force with force should only be applicable to those responsible for this cowardly attack.

Two wrongs do not necessarily make a right, so if the United States were to take a hard line approach and counter-attack on innocent civilians, it would serve no purpose other than glorifying this act, and by sinking to the same level of these terrorists show nothing to me other than condoning horrid attacks on innocent people.

Don't get me wrong, those responsible for this act should be hunted down and killed and completely and thoroughly punished for their actions, but the counter-attack measures should be limited to taking out the terrorist group and doing minimal, if any damage to the civilians in the nation responsible.

In either case, the best response would be to first figure out exactly who is responsible for this act, be it the Taliban's in Afghanistan or a Palestinian group before taking swift action to bring justice to those who perpetrated this vile act.
 
215sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Tue, Sep 11, 19:13
the keyword, which continues to creep into many of these posts, is...extremists. Katie and I have fundamentally differing political views. (believe it or not...*S* I'm the 'liberal' one) It's not conservatives I fear...its EXTREMIST conservatives and extremist liberals as well, as it pertains to our internal system of government. World population is the same, just larger numbers. I hold no fear of the masses who believe differently than I. I hold some degree of trepidation of the extremists who agree with me, and I geuinely fear the results of the extremists who disagree with me. (I say 'me', but in terms of today I refer to the collective 'me' as an American.)

To scale it back and put it into perspective, lets talk about our own govt for a moment. Makes no difference whether you personally are a Republican or a Democrat or even a Socialist. Imagine, if one party (other than the one you are a member of) got control of BOTH the Legislature AND the Whitehouse. Would you not fear for your personal value system and beliefs? I'd think you would have to. Now, expand that outward. Make it a world governing body. Then (to obtain the true perspective) Assume we now have a worldwide effort to overthrow that govt, by an extremist group. THAT is essentially what terrorism is. The simple position is this: Either you believe as I do, or you are Satan and will die 1,000 times. That truly is there position when boiled down to its simplest terms. Since they firmly believe, that they are doing GODS work...all means justify the end. Since that is the means they employ, that is the only means to combat them as well. You cannot stop an armed robbery with a water pistol, nor can you stop an armed terrorist with logic and appeals of compassion. None on this earth are more passionate than a terrorist. This is basically why I advocate the use of force. Excessive force even. Partly to make a statement, and partly to protect our members of that same force. Our military leadership (political also) did right during the Gulf War. They did not commit ground troops, until we had an overwhelming presence of force. I cannot begin to surmise just how many American lives this decision saved. The same method must hold true when we deal with terrorists. if we believe a squad of 8 is sufficient to take down the site, then we need to use 16. Ensure destruction of the site, and so quickly that our own face little risk of effective return fire. Hence, my cry for total retaliation, total use of force, and the absolute destruction of the single most dangerous man on the planet today...Bin Ladin.