Forum: base
Page 11329
Subject: Today Our Civilization was Attacked......Aftermath


  Posted by: Matt S - Donor [57543213] Wed, Sep 12, 02:04

The other thread was getting a little long.

A new day deserves a new thread.

Here's to having a better one than yesterday! Good Luck!
 
1 Special K
      ID: 38821122
      Wed, Sep 12, 02:21
Thanks go to all the people who've been posting on these boards since word broke about the event. I owe a lot of credit to these boards for assistance in helping me in my fantasy gaming endeavors, but today I wanted to thank all of the people who posted here. I won't name names cause I know i'll forget a few of you, but I thank you for showing your support and expressing your feelings here. It was different for me here at home, because my mom and dad weren't very vocal about it, and at college we didn't talk much about it. I spent a lot of my time on the computer at these boards from 9 AM til now.

It would be nice to hear from you all. I'd like to talk to any of you who are willing. My e-mail address is included with my name. Thanks again.

I have to get to bed, cause I have a Math test tomrrow. Maybe with sleep, i'll be able to find some temporary solace from the atrocities of today.

Thanks again.
 
2 flake
      Donor
      ID: 17712190
      Wed, Sep 12, 02:50
i found that the redcross.org site makes it
easy to donate to the relief effort. i wish they
were set up for paypal, but a credit card was
simple, as well.

flake
(and let the ballplayers go back home to their
families for a week, bud.)
 
3Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 447461620
      Wed, Sep 12, 04:35

Links to tough talk, from National Review:

Pipes

Kesler

Kudlow

Ledeen

Toral
 
4F Gump
      ID: 53837117
      Wed, Sep 12, 04:44
Canadian TV is reporting that there were cell phone calls intercepted from the hijacked planes to Bin Laden, from what I hear.
 
5Tim G
      ID: 50858105
      Wed, Sep 12, 04:53
Sports are low on my priorities right now, my
thoughts and prayers are with those who have
lost loved ones in this terrible tragedy.
However, up late I turned on ESPN.

LA Kings: Scouts Ace Bailey and Mark Davis
were lost on United Airlines flight 175.

NCAA Football: All Thursday games
postponed/rescheduled, same with many
Saturday games. NCAA to decide on games
scheduled for Friday/Saturday at 1:00 ET
Wednesday.

NFL: Decision Thursday.

MLB: Wednesday games postponed.

Many other sporting events have been either
cancelled or postponed.
 
6Bubba
      Donor
      ID: 37129220
      Wed, Sep 12, 05:11
I'm still in a daze this morning over yesterday's tragedy.
It all still seems like a bad dream, the depth and
severity of what transpired still hasn't sunk in. All I know
is, I hugged my wife longer than usual today when she
got up. If there's possibly anything positive that could be
taken from all this, it's that it reminds us all of what is
really important in life. Negative SWP, dropping stock
prices...the importance of these pales in comparison to
that of human life and relationships. Sincerest
condolences and my prayers go out to those affected in
any way, especially those who lost a loved one.

Remember to give your loved ones an extra-long
hug today. They probably need it as much as you do.
 
7allhair allstars
      Sustainer
      ID: 5881656
      Wed, Sep 12, 06:23
Bubba,
Nicely put. My sentiments exactly.
 
8 Greenbelt
      ID: 32846126
      Wed, Sep 12, 07:09
It's hard to even care about sports today. Fun and games, that's all. The spoils of a rich society. In the morning's paper, Micheal Wilbon wrote---IMO---the most sobering perspective on all of this yet! Talk about irony! ( ...and not just because he's my age. ) This, for me, was the most chilling quote...
"I've taken American Airlines Flight 77 from Washington Dulles to Los Angeles International Airport more than a dozen times. Over the years it has left at 8 a.m. Eastern time and lands at LAX about 10 Pacific time. It's one of my favorite flights because it's five hours of solitude, reading time, nap time or work time. No cell phone rings there, nobody from the office can reach you. It's usually full, with more than 200 passengers. I thought about my dear friend and colleague James Brown being on that flight when he goes to work on the Fox NFL telecast every weekend, of my friend Howie Long, who also makes that commute. Selfishly, I became thankful it wasn't Friday, when they would have been heading west for the weekend. "

And this one, sums it all up for me...
"I don't want to hear that losing a ballgame is tragic. I don't want to hear the volume reach 10 over who's going to play quarterback. I don't want to hear that a slugger is a villain because he won't talk to the press and doesn't sign as many autographs as he perhaps should. It's fantasy. It's fun and games, a sign of how prosperous a culture we've become, how blasé and presumptuous we've gotten in recent years when it comes to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

And as the airflight manifests are starting to become public, we've found out here that former NHL'er ( and Cap ) Garnet "Ace" Bailey was on that second plane that we all saw auger-in.

Not to cheapen the moment, but I agree with ol' Mike that what we need right now, is to resume our pastimes---with a very heavy heart, but not surrender as that would play right into the traps laid by the simplest of minds this world has to offer. I believe that when ( if? ;-} ) I check-out, I would like to be remembered. But not to the extent that everyone shuts-down and locks-up for long periods of time. IMO, to move on is not a sign of dis-respect, but a part of healing.

Peace.

 
9butt
      ID: 4489127
      Wed, Sep 12, 07:09
From Reuters.com: Five Suspects Identified in NYC Attack
 
10KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Wed, Sep 12, 07:10
American Red Cross
1-800-HELP-NOW (435-7669)

Give Blood
1-800-GIVE-LIFE (448-35433)

Helping.org

 
11KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Wed, Sep 12, 07:11
Following up on butt's post: "Authorities in Massachusetts have identified five Arab men as suspects in Tuesday's attack on New York City and have seized a rental car containing Arabic-language flight training manuals at Logan International Airport, a source told the Boston Herald newspaper.

"Two of the men were brothers whose passports were traced to the United Arab Emirates, the unidentified source told the Herald. One of the men was a trained pilot, the paper reported on its Web site on Wednesday."

Further down in the article: "At least two other suspects flew to Logan on Tuesday from Portland, Maine, where authorities believe they had traveled after crossing over from Canada recently, the Herald reported."

 
12butt
      ID: 53812127
      Wed, Sep 12, 07:12
From BostonHerald.com: Hub terror suspects ID'd
 
13KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Wed, Sep 12, 07:31
From NBC News (Richard Holbrook, Fmr Ambassador to the UN): A pro-America rally is growing in Berlin, Germany. Several hundred people demonstrating in favor of America and against the attacks.
 
14Greenbelt
      ID: 32846126
      Wed, Sep 12, 07:39
There was a moment of silence before a futbal game in the Netherlands ( thank you! ) and flowers are being laid next to U.S. embasies in Berlin ( thank you! ) and Moscow ( thank you! ).
 
15Ender
      ID: 52438315
      Wed, Sep 12, 08:10
I want to take a moment to be thankful for the community we have on these boards. I could list many, many reasons, but a few stand out in my mind. As many of you know I am a school teacher. Yesterday was our first day of state-wide standardized testing in Indiana, so I spent the entire day administering that test. During the longer sections, when I wasn't wandering the room monitoring my students, I would check in briefly on the internet. It was suprisingly hard to find current information on the major news wires, but I was able to find solid information from rational people here on these boards. I was not at all surprised.

Nothing we can say or do will lessen the shear tragedy of this situation, but I feel more American today than I have felt in my entire life. Intermingled with the tales of pure horror and anguish that will soon follow, we will also hear stories of dramatic heroism. Some of them are already beginning to reach the media. Many of you have already speculated, and now reports of cell phone conversations confirm, that something extremely heroic took place on the ill-fated Newark-San Francisco flight. Clearly those Americans said "You may have this plane, you may have our lives, but that is all. We are not your weapon."

We will recover, but we will not forget. I hope whatever retaliation takes place (and there will be) is carefully measured, precise, and final. The perpetrators new what they were doing and showed no mercy. They used innocent people as weapons of mass destruction. It was beyond despicable.

I have rambled on enough now, but please take the time to remember not only the people who have already perished, but also the service people who have the grim task of cleaning it up. We already know close to 300 have already forfeited their lives in that effort. These will be some of the truest heroes and are doing a job that no person should have to do.
 
16Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Wed, Sep 12, 08:17
Toral - thanks for the links - good reading for all concerned. Of course, Toral, you will already be able to easily predict my reaction to the opinion stated in each article??
 
17 Taxman
      Leader
      ID: 04491215
      Wed, Sep 12, 08:20
Something new from this board.
I get a feeling of comfort here even though life irrevocably changed yesterday for those of us in America. I am apologetic that I still had any innocence to lose. The horror and suffering of yesterday will be my constant companion for far too many days ahead. This site provides a much needed haven for my mind.

Thanks Dave

Thanks Gurupies.

 
18Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Wed, Sep 12, 08:21
News ticker just stated that the "UN has withdrawn from Afghanistan" Not sure what the means, exactly.

Is it perplexing to anyone else that no one has claimed, credibly, responsibilty for this attack? Seems that the purpose of the attack would not be fulfilled without a claim. Otherwise, what statement was made?
 
19Ender
      ID: 52438315
      Wed, Sep 12, 08:31
I think the only explanation for the lack of a claim of responsibility is that it would be out and out suicide. It's one thing to claim responsibility for a car bomb in the MidEast that killed 10 people (I mean in no way to diminish the evil of such an attack), but it is a whole different matter to take responsibility for an attack that will more than likely exceed 30,000 on American soil.

This is pure speculation on my part, but it seems plausible. The Taliban has condemned the attack (I haven't reconciled how much credibility I lend to their stance). I would not be shocked to learn at a later date that they already know it was Osama. They have harbored him, but they know they can do so no longer. To continue would be political suicide, they would (will?) become the focus of retaliation that is backed by nearly every nation. Perhaps they condemned the attack to buy time for Osama to get out of their country so we spend our time chasing him and are distracted from efforts against them.

Like I said, pure speculation, but seems plausible.
 
20Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Wed, Sep 12, 08:38
Authourities seem to have made a connection between the hijackers and a flight training school, Embry-Riddell in Daytonya Beach, FL
 
21Greenbelt
      ID: 32846126
      Wed, Sep 12, 08:43
Generally speaking, when the UN pulls-out, the military is preparing a run. When the ground troops pull back, look out for a bombing.

What statement was made? A half-dozen or so kooks used religous zeal as a lame excuse to do something that nobody in their clear minds would find of any use. Does this bring sympathy to a cause? Hell no! It brings revenge. Akin to someone swating a hornets nest because they didn't like the way they were buzzing around. However, the rest of us are around to get stung. These are sounding more like a few lone-wolves who *might* have gotten some help/training. A week ago, I read of an older Israeli citizen who was considered a "freind of Palastine" by helping small business' get started and such. He even spoke fluent Arabic! One day last week, he was waiting for an omlette ( in an eatery he helped the owner get started! ) and some young punk walked up behind him and blew him away from behind! The owner---a Palastinian---ran out and threw a chair at the punk ( who returned fire! ), ducked, watched the coward run away, and then cried over his dying Israeli friend. The folks over there have begone to wonder aloud if this Jihad thing had gotten woefully out of hand ( short answer: YES! )
 
22KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Wed, Sep 12, 08:49
I've taken a bit of interest in what is being said at the alt.prophecies.nostradamus newsgroup in light of Xineohpeol's post that seems to have "predicted" yesterday's events and even allude to that person having some sort of "inside" knowledge about what was going to happen.

Anyhow, I came across a post that just seemed absolutely crazy the more I thought about it. The heart of the post was this:

Flight 11: Todays date
Flight 93: 9+3 = 12 - Wednesday
Flight 175: 1+7+5 = 13 - Thursday
Flight 77: 7+7 = 14 - Friday

Now obviously, the first one doesn't fit the pattern of the remaining ones, but what are the chances of that sort of pattern even existing amongst the other 3 planes? Obviously, this could all be an extreme coincidence (likely), but it still just blows the mind that a pattern like that could show up.

 
23KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Wed, Sep 12, 08:51
Greenbelt, don't expect any ground troops. Ground troops actually play into their hands since their troops know the terrain and area better and will have just as much "ground firepower" as our troops (i.e. - an automatic weapon in the hands of anyone is still an automatic weapon). I figure something along the lines of Iraq where high-level bombing (Stealth, etc.) will be followed by lower-level and naval vessel bombing, possibly to be followed by ground troops, if neccessary.

We'll see...

 
24Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Wed, Sep 12, 08:53
That is a strange coincidence - but, of course, the flights were chosen because they were transcontinental, carrying the maximum amount of fuel - not because of their flight numbers. Strange nontheless, though.
 
25KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Wed, Sep 12, 09:02
Myboyjack, true, but there are many transcontinental flights everyday and every morning. In other words, why go to Newark to get a plane when it was obviously easy enough to get two in BOS and elsewhere? Did the hijackers have more in mind than just the fuel on board? I don't know. We may never know. I know the main reasons that we think the planes were chosen, and I hope those are the only reasons. At this point, I'm just not sure about anything. Obviously.
 
26biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 231045110
      Wed, Sep 12, 09:02
Another reason that all we hear from the standard terrorist groups is denial and condemnation: there may be more to come. I sure as heck hope not, but x's second post can't help but make me think and worry.

If they had something planned down the line, stonewalling and condolensces create questions, not answers, and offer the best chance of success for future missions.

Not a probability, but a possibility.
 
27WiddleAvi
      ID: 51751137
      Wed, Sep 12, 09:04
My question is..Why only target the people who did this ? Why not go after all terrorist groups ? Maybe Hamas didn't do this but it is a known fact that they carried out other bombings and are a terrorist group. Now when the whole world is coming together let all the countries put an all out effort to erradicate terrorism. Killing only those responsible for this will only be the tip of the iceberg.
 
28Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Wed, Sep 12, 09:04
billi - I hope you aren't correct.
 
29KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Wed, Sep 12, 09:09
WiddleAvi, I think that is the greatest possibility for WWIII. Bascially, you'll get a large country or two who won't agree and it will be Us (US, Britain, France, etc.) vs. the terrorist groups and the sympathizers. The only problem I see with this is that terrorist groups are sneaky. Very sneaky. We may be attacking them "there" and suddenly find out that we're being attacked "here", just like yesterday.

Personally, I'm not sure how I feel about attacking all terrorist groups at once. I think we definitely need to do something about them, but am not sure what kind of consequences would arise from spreding our focus.

 
30Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Wed, Sep 12, 09:22
Congressmen are making their 1 minute speeches. The word "war" continues to be used prominently.
 
31Voodoo Child
      ID: 15832610
      Wed, Sep 12, 09:27
I am the only one to whom it occurred that yesterday's tragedy (or national emergency) occurred on 9/11 => 911 Emergency..?
 
32Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 46818119
      Wed, Sep 12, 09:34
No, Voodoo, it's been commented on before. I think most of us think that it's just a coincindence. After all, there is no 911 service in the countries from which this attack was planned.

I find it surprising that the Taliban would have expressed sympathy if they are behind it. I would think they would be like Iraq or Iran and simply remain silent.

pd
 
33Greenbelt
      ID: 32846126
      Wed, Sep 12, 09:38
No, sorry, the "911" refference was used many times. Today, was *supposed to be the trail date of the ones' blamed for the previous (WTC ) bombing ( '93 ), at a court house just around the corner. But that trial has been post-poned a few times already, so that's out the window. Numerology? Fun, but I don't expect many clues there.

KKB; Writing "Generally speaking, when the UN pulls-out, the military is preparing a run. When the ground troops pull back, look out for a bombing." Doesn't mean that I'm calling for a ground-out. More like a few surgical air strikes is what I *belive* may be in store.

 
34Khahan
      ID: 12432113
      Wed, Sep 12, 09:48
I think a lot of people are looking and finding 'coincidences' or possible motivations where there are none.
The 911 thing is jsut that, coincidence. As PermDude pointed out, the areas where this all began have no 911.
Yes, kkb, that is an intersting pattern, but again, probably just coincidence.
Everything from the Japanese Red Army to Saddam has been implicated. Give it another day or two and conspiracy theorists will be linking the barometric air pressure at an altitude above a point in Kenya to these bombings because 1 number in the reading happens to be a seat number on the plane.
I'm sticking to a couple of credible sources, msnbc, cnn, abc/fox/cbs etc news and the ap wire.
Also remember, just because somebody posts one of these theories does not mean they believe it or thought of it. So take it easy on the people who do so.
 
35KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Wed, Sep 12, 10:16
Are we really that blind to think that those responsible for this were able to pull of such an elaborate attack and know all the ins and outs of the WTC, airline security, the Pentagon, etc. and yet they don't know about the signficance of "911" to Americans?

Coincidence or not, they know what "911" is.

 
36smallwhirled
      ID: 157582113
      Wed, Sep 12, 10:20
I'm about to go and give some blood.
 
37Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 38728300
      Wed, Sep 12, 10:21
KKB, I think they know what "911" means, but that doesn't mean it's not a coincidence. After all, what would be gained by their making the actions on yesterday's date?

pd
 
38KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Wed, Sep 12, 10:39
PD, I didn't say it wasn't coincidence. I'm just saying that people are alluding to ignorance of the attackers with regard to the significance of the number "911" and I don't think it's correct. I finished my post saying "Coincidence or not", meaning I don't know which it was and I don't think any of us will know unless someone in charge of the attacks steps forth and says "Yes" or "No", which will never happen.

There are a lot of "coincidences" from yesterday that bear looking at. At what point do "coincidences" turn into something else? I don't know, but up until yesterday I don't think any of us were worried about airplanes flying into the 2 WTC buildings and bringing them down. At this point, my mind is open to anything and I think some of the "coincidences" being pointed out in many places bear some consideration and not just a passing "It's all a coincidence."

How many coincidences add up to equal a plan?

I do, deep down, believe that the "numbers game" and the date were coincidence, but I'm only about 75% sure. Like I said, I'm open to anything as a result of yesterday's stunning attacks.

 
39KevinL
      Donor
      ID: 10417811
      Wed, Sep 12, 10:51
This is a totally unsubstantiated rumor.

The terrorists bought a number of tickets on those planes, ensuring that they were mostly empty and easy to get control of.

Anybody else hear anything like this? If it were true, the airline should have been suspicious, which may be why airlines aren't quick to release this info.

Again, total rumor, "somebody heard" . . .
 
40Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 38728300
      Wed, Sep 12, 11:21
I'd heard that those planes were usually pretty empty anyway.

pd
 
41 Mark L
      Leader
      ID: 4444938
      Wed, Sep 12, 11:25
Myboyjack 18 & bili 26 - my recollection of prior bin Laden attacks is that his group never takes "credit." That is a practice of smaller groups trying to get recognized. His group seeks to carry on war.
 
426-9 With The Afro
      ID: 97969
      Wed, Sep 12, 11:28
I did a quick search on that "Sollog" guy that was mentioned in the Leo Pheonix message board posting. Apparently this guy is some kind of modern day Nostradamus with ties to Bin Laden. Although I find a lot of links I couldn't get through to most. (Possible shut down by the FBI/CIA so as to search for clues). Apparently he makes many doomsday claims just like Pheonix predicting disaster etc. One thing I found interesting was a link to "Sollugs Index" a mystic stock index for traders. Considering the nature of the buildings toppled I'd like to see this guy questioned!
 
436-9 With The Afro
      ID: 97969
      Wed, Sep 12, 11:33
Actually, after reading this next page, I think Pheonix may in fact be this Sollog guy:

http://www.ufomind.com/people/e/ennis/

 
446-9 With The Afro
      ID: 97969
      Wed, Sep 12, 11:43
I posted this in the other thread but this one seems to be getting more action:

I researched that name "Sollug" from the Leo Pheonix newsgroup posting and found a ton of links. Most don't seem to be responding now but they may have been taken off line by the gov't. Apparently this guy views himself as a modern day Nostradamus and predicts disaster. I also heard he has ties to Bin Laden. One of his links was to "Sollugs Index" a mystic stock index showing his interest in finance. Check out the link to read more about this guy who (in my mind) seems likely to have been related to this incident:

Sollug info
 
45Sandlot
      Donor
      ID: 59832108
      Wed, Sep 12, 11:48
Just got back from giving blood. Two emotions right now, well three. Anger. Don't need to explain that one. Shame - it took a cowardly terrorist attack to get me down to the blood bank to give. I guarantee when the phone call comes in 8 weeks to give again, I'll be there, and 8 weeks after that, etc. Last, pride. I'm proud to have done my small part. My blood may not make it back east, but it'll help someone. I'm also proud to be an American, however cliche' that may sound. It is a special priviledge being an American citizen, one I take for granted too darn much.

Last note - can you believe that policeman who rode the WTC tower collapse 82 floors and lived? They thought they might have to amputate one of his legs, but it turns out they won't have to. Amazing!
 
46Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 38728300
      Wed, Sep 12, 11:58
Sandlot, I didn't hear the story. You have an on-line link?

Don't have a TV or radio here in the office :(
 
47dusty bottoms
      ID: 18442117
      Wed, Sep 12, 12:08
Bomb squad was just called in at Copley Square in Boston, 16th Floor of the Westin, cops tell people to move back.
 
48Goner
      ID: 152302613
      Wed, Sep 12, 12:21
Several in custody at the Westin. Related to the activities from yesterday (article on CNN)
 
49 Mark L
      Leader
      ID: 4444938
      Wed, Sep 12, 12:33
I doubt there is much real leverage to exploit this, but I thought it was interesting:

"• The Taliban, who control 90 percent of Afghanistan, appeal to the United States to refrain from attacking their country."

(source: cnn.com)

 
50Sludge
      Donor
      ID: 1440310
      Wed, Sep 12, 12:35
Oops... meant to post this in this thread, not the other.

Friend just forwarded me this link. Apparently, the picture is a scan of this month's Wired magazine which has been on newstands for a week.

The Coup, Party Music new album review.

Notice the photo.
 
51dusty bottoms
      ID: 18442117
      Wed, Sep 12, 12:39
That is scary.
 
52wildyams/katietx
      ID: 3483513
      Wed, Sep 12, 12:43
Someone emailed this site to me this morning. It is truly beautiful.


go there and light a candle


 
53wildyams/katietx
      ID: 3483513
      Wed, Sep 12, 12:44
sorry, the link didn't come thru...here it is:




http://gratefulness.org/practice/candles.html?




 
54Goner
      ID: 152302613
      Wed, Sep 12, 12:47
NATO To Take Action
NATO is expected to declare later Wednesday that Tuesday's terror attacks on the United States come under the alliance's mutual defense arrangements, diplomats said.

They said a draft statement to be issued by NATO Secretary-General George Robertson was circulated to allied capitals and would be adopted at an emergency NATO council meeting Wednesday afternoon unless any of the allies objected.

"The secretary-general has proposed that NATO issues a declaration that this is a case that falls under Article V," one diplomat said.

The NATO press office confirmed that Robertson had scheduled an 2 p.m. EDT news conference after the council reconvenes at 1:30 p.m. EDT for its third deliberation in 24 hours on the attacks.

The statement would refer to Article V of the North Atlantic Treaty, never before invoked, which declares an attack on one to be an attack on all and commits each member to take "such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area."
(Reuters)
 
55dusty bottoms
      ID: 18442117
      Wed, Sep 12, 12:53
Westin Hotel in Boston evacuated, a bomb has been found, unknown whether it is related to yesterday...........
 
56sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Wed, Sep 12, 12:58
someone asked in an earlier post...at what point do coincidences become something else?...(sorry, but not gonna take the time to look back and credit the writer as I should.) THAT is very valid question...and one which you can be certain investigators ask themselves daily. 1, 2 or maybe 3 bits of coincidental info are indeed treated as pure coincidence. Filed away for future reference if need be. Upon the 4th, 5th and 6th however. It is no longer treated as coincidence, but rather as evidence.

Of course Bin Ladin is denying responsibility. Of course the Talibhan is denying any complicity. They saw the coverage of the Iraqi War in 1991. They know we can drop a bnomb from 20k feet and have it slide right down their chimney if need be.
These people are terrorists, however they are not stupid. Bin Ladin has declared war on the U.S. Yet he hides in the one country on the planet which will not extradite him. So what to do? Simple actually. We do exactly...and I mean EXACTLY as we did during the Gulf War. We start with a naval blockade of Afghani ports. We have the Soviets provide a land blockade from their end of things. India/Pakistan provide land blockades from their region. We deny civil flights to and from Afghani airspace. We conduct armed recon flights of the Afghani borders. All the while, we build a ground troop presence on Indian soil. After we have our ground forces in place, we deliver to Afghani the final option...hand him over, or we'll come get him. *shrug* If its war Bin Ladin wants, if Afghanistan is going to be arrogant enough to think they can stop us, then its war they shall have. We bomb, and we bomb some more, and then we bomb some more. After turning their industrial centers into rubble, after severing their communications capabilities, after reducing the food reserves to near zero...we send in the ground troops, with more than adequate air cover...and within 96 hrs...Afghanistan will be secured. Bin Ladin will be in custody....and this will be one more sad damned chapter in human history.
 
57Khahan
      ID: 12432113
      Wed, Sep 12, 13:07
Sarge33, agreed completely on how we should handle this situation. Of course of all this is based on the 'speculation' that Bin Laden is behind these attacks.
As to my earlier comment about coincidence (generated by a post by KKB), you are right about when it becomes more.
For instance, our assessment that Bin Laden is behind all this is based on the fact that there are just too many coincidences.
He claim a few weeks ago to bring a rein of terror like none ever seen.
His is the only organization with resources to pull off an operation like this.
His style of execution is all over this.
His countrymen and people suspected of having links to him and his organization have now been indicated to be invloved.
Yes, there are enough worthwhile coincidences there to stack up and begin a solid investigation of him.
.
And on one other note, I received an email this morning encouraging everybody who reads it to wear Red, White and Blue tomorrow to show support for our nation in this time of crisis. Just thought I would pass that on to everybody here to spread the word.
 
58patjams
      ID: 27812119
      Wed, Sep 12, 13:12
The Taliban may be denying any involvement, but in all likelihood, their leaders probably had prior knowledge (if not involvement) of the attack. Bin Ladin keeps getting more and more brazen and the time has come to destroy him and his followers/believers. Including the Taliban.
 
59Sandlot
      Donor
      ID: 5343219
      Wed, Sep 12, 13:12
PD - no link - my wife told me this morning when I woke up - she's a FOXnews junkie and most likely heard it there.
 
60sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Wed, Sep 12, 13:16
*chuckling here* Khahan...'begin'???? an investigation of Bin Ladin? Friend, there hasnt been a day go by in the past 10 years but that he HASNT been under investigation. Thats why/how are federal people are as certain it was he, as quickly as they are. Stacks upon stacks, upon stacks of data/facts etc on this jack-a$$ have been accumulated over the past decade. No question what-so-ever...NONE. Bin Ladin was/is behind yesterdays attack. His day however, will arrive all too soon for his liking, I'm quite certain of that.
 
61Khahan
      ID: 12432113
      Wed, Sep 12, 13:20
Heh, very true Sarge, you are absolutely right. I should have been more clear. Investigate to find the concrete evidence linking him to this event. ;)
And don't forget to wear your red white and blue tomorrow.
 
62 Mark L
      Leader
      ID: 4444938
      Wed, Sep 12, 13:20
ABC news is now reporting that FBI agents went to 14th floor of Westin hotel in Boston. Wanted to search two rooms. Just as they arrived three people (two women, one man) left those rooms; FBI let them pass by, then cuffed them before the three got on the elevators. They are now "in custody."

No other people in these rooms. FBI used Boston SWAT team bomb dog to check rooms. Dog reacted to a suitcase and a wastebasket. Police cleared the area around the hotel, and they are now figuring out how to deal with the suitcase.
 
63 Mark L
      Leader
      ID: 4444938
      Wed, Sep 12, 13:22
An addition: the three people grabbed by FBI outside the Westin elevators were reported to have begun "screaming in Arabic" as they were being taken down.
 
65sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Wed, Sep 12, 13:31
guess I need to append a comment I've made a couple times in the past day. When I say that 'terrorists are not stupid'....maybe I should qualify that and say that terrorist LEADERSHIP is not stupid. Individual cell members are like individuals everywhere. Some of them are sure to be a few watts short of being a dim bulb.
 
66Goner
      ID: 152302613
      Wed, Sep 12, 13:38
While I agree with Sarge and Khahan, I want to make one additional point. If we are to fight terrorism on a global scale, and it sounds like after yesterday the world has seen enough, then we need to make sure Bin Laden's entire network is removed. If he is caught or destroyed, his followers will only see him as a martyr and I'm sure others will take up his sword, perhaps more fervently. I would guess he has already ensured that another will have access to his finances should he be unable to lead. But once the central hub in Afghanistan is taken care of, there HAS to be a continued effort to find and remove the rest also.
 
67Khahan
      ID: 12432113
      Wed, Sep 12, 13:42
Agreed 100% Goner. I would almost love to see Al-Qaeda destroyed, financially, internally, externally. Its membership reduced to nothing but a ragtag group on the run. No resources, no backing. AFter that, then Bin Laden is caught and executed. Leave him standing last so he can see his 'network' and his beloved organization go down in flames around him. He'll know he's ruined and he'll know he's lost.
 
68patjams
      ID: 27812119
      Wed, Sep 12, 13:43
President's spokesman has just indicated that the flight that hit the Pentagon is believed to have been headed for the White House.
 
696-9 With The Afro
      ID: 97969
      Wed, Sep 12, 13:45
Hey the "Providence" post is gone - am I to believe that was false information? I've been trying to find confirmation on that and can't.
 
70chibob
      ID: 467181517
      Wed, Sep 12, 13:45
Is a Nuclear Bomb a deterrent if it will never be used? One headed in the genral vicinity on Bin Laden should do the trick and you think the next terrorist organization thinking of doing something like this to the US might have other thoughts.

- i'm not saying, i'm just saying
 
716-9 With The Afro
      ID: 97969
      Wed, Sep 12, 13:48
Answered my own question. This just in from Boston.com (site of the Herald):

LATEST NEWS: The FBI has stopped an Amtrak train in Providence so the it can interview a man about yesterday's terrorist attacks. Channel 7 is reporting that the agency has found Islamic papers and a manual on how to fly a 767 airplane in a room at the Boston Park Inn on Boylston Street in Newton.
 
72DR Stars
      ID: 162592010
      Wed, Sep 12, 13:50
One of the probable heroes of this tragic event is shown in this transcript from a nandotimes.com story:
"A fourth hijacked airliner plummeted to earth about 80 miles southeast of Pittsburgh. There was speculation that the hijackers intended to take the plane elsewhere but were thwarted by passengers.

In a phone call from the air, passenger Thomas Burnett told his wife, Deena, "I know we're all going to die - there's three of us who are going to do something about it." Then, Burnett told his wife, "I love you, honey" and the call ended, the family's priest, the Rev. Frank Colacicco, told the San Francisco Chronicle.

 
73Goner
      ID: 152302613
      Wed, Sep 12, 13:51
One of the chiefs of US military has said that there were no options that were off the table when it came to a response to this act. When asked if that included a nuclear response, he said nothing was off the table.
 
74TimmyBogar
      ID: 18845129
      Wed, Sep 12, 13:51
Thanks for these updates patjams and 6-9, this is the first Im hearing of all this today. I'm at work so can't peep a TV.
 
75patjams
      ID: 27812119
      Wed, Sep 12, 13:53
Air Force one was also a target according to White House spokesman Arie Fleischer. (sp?)
 
76dusty bottoms
      ID: 18442117
      Wed, Sep 12, 13:55
I took the Providence info down, did not want to excite anyone, had no concrete info, but it is true happened around 2 et., 50 squad cars showed up stopped the train. The same train had been stopped in Massachusetts prior to its arrival in RI, it is from Boston's south station.
 
77Khahan
      ID: 12432113
      Wed, Sep 12, 13:57
On the nuclear subject, while it may not be off the table, its surely very near to falling off the edge. Why? 2 reasons
1) Afghanistan has nuclear capabilities. In that respect we may be looking at the next cold war.
2) We would probably lose the backing of the rest of the world. Do we need that backing to 'win'?
Probably not. But there would certainly be ripple effects in international dealings
.
The only plausible way I could see the US using nukes if we started out, as a first strike initiative against Afghanastan's nuclear sites.
Army intelligence knows wehre they all and the US military is more than capable of launching a multi-faceted first strike intended to neutralize multiple sites.
In fact if we do that first thing, whether we intend to use nuclear weapons or not, I think Afganastan would back down immediately and basically leave the political world forum for a while.
 
78Cleveland Fan
      Donor
      ID: 294172211
      Wed, Sep 12, 13:57
Sarge, I cried when I read your last post. I never appreciated our military before. It is something that I always took for granted. Thanks to all of you who serve us.
 
79Cleveland Fan
      Donor
      ID: 294172211
      Wed, Sep 12, 14:01
I meant post 56
 
80patjams
      ID: 27812119
      Wed, Sep 12, 14:04
Word out of one of the intelligence briefings is for people not to get too comfortable or lulled into a false sense of security as the terrorists attacks "may not be over". (As reported by Linda Douglas from ABC)

No indication of whether or not they have more info on another attack or if they're just saying in general that terrorism is always going to exist.
 
81Stretch Nuts
      ID: 59847420
      Wed, Sep 12, 14:06
The father of a guy at my school was in NYC when everything went down, and whipped out his camera to capture it. I know everyone's already seen a lot of images, but here are some more if you're interested...
http://www.princeton.edu/~viscelli/

Another angle on this tragedy thing that comes to my mind as an Indian (born and raised in America) is what a bad time it is to be an Arab in America. Whoever turns out to be responsible for these acts, I sincerely hope that we don't succumb to a general outrage against Arab-Americans. The injustices of what the US did to Japanese-Americans during WWII is a stain on our history. I fear what could happen now.
 
82Khahan
      ID: 12432113
      Wed, Sep 12, 14:08
Again, like with own ignorance of the Muslim religion, I have found that we may not be right in condemning 'Afghanistan' as a nation for what has happened.
Afhgans against Bin Laden
.
Afghan rule is by the Taliban, a religious organiztion and friend of Bin Laden. However, it may appear that Afghan citizenship is not entirely happy about this.
I'm not saying we should approach the situation any differently, however again, like with the issues with Muslim religion, perhaps we should take the time to educate ourselves more about the Afghan people.
 
83 Gomez Addams
      ID: 38712813
      Wed, Sep 12, 14:09
Just heard on WRKO radio Boston that the 3 people arrested at Westin Hotel had credit cards that were used to purchase the airline tickets for the flights out of Boston yesterday. FBI news conference should air soon. Stay tuned.
 
84Sludge
      Donor
      ID: 1440310
      Wed, Sep 12, 14:11
Amazing photos, Stretch Nuts. Gives a new look at the enormity of the dust cloud in pictures 64-70. I knew it was big from the video, but they were, for the most part, up high above everything. To see it from ground (water) level makes it all the more amazing.
 
85patjams
      ID: 27812119
      Wed, Sep 12, 14:14
American generosity is starting to show up.

$10 million from GE for the families of victims
$4 million from Cisco
 
86Stretch Nuts
      ID: 59847420
      Wed, Sep 12, 14:15
Another interesting angle is that we hear intelligence officials saying that just because this one attack succeeded, Americans think the terrorists have the US completely outwitted in fact the US has foiled numerous attempts at terrorism in the past few years.

Now I understand that the details of these plots and how the US snuffed them out couldn't be made public without compromising future intelligence missions, but with this tragedy I think all the sordid details of what the real terrorist threat has been and how it has been dealt with are going to pour out in the coming weeks. It should be intensely interesting, and allow Americans to reach a much greater understanding of our national security outlook. Bush's missile defense (while still worthwhile in my mind) has mis-identified the greatest threat, and we need to redirect our resources.
 
87puckprophet
      ID: 52712723
      Wed, Sep 12, 14:24
flights diverted to canada , now able to fuel up and leave...just a bit of a traffic jam at the airports.
 
88ChicagoTRS
      Sustainer
      ID: 44753816
      Wed, Sep 12, 14:53
BTW...I do not believe Afganistan is a country recognized to have nuclear weapons capabilities. Their neighbor and possible conspirator Pakistan is recognized to have some nuclear threat.
 
89KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Wed, Sep 12, 14:55
NBC News: NO ARRESTS HAVE BEEN MADE TODAY IN CONNECTION WITH YESTERDAY'S EVENTS

I can't remember the name of the person who gave the press conference.

 
90tommyd
      ID: 15912231
      Wed, Sep 12, 15:08
Any theories on why the plane headed for the White House ended up hitting the Pentagon. I've argued with my girlfriend saying that the White House was too secure but she doesn't agree with that. Any theories??
 
91biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Wed, Sep 12, 15:14
I had thought that the penn flight was going for the white house?

If the Pentagon flight was also meant for the White House, then bad flying, maybe. It didn't even hit the Pentagon directly. It hit the ground in front and then smashed through the wall. It may just have been bad luck on the pentagon's part.
 
92ivan
      ID: 6833127
      Wed, Sep 12, 15:21
re: 91

target of oppertunity?

did those in control of the plane fear losing control of the passenger's before getting to hit their target, so they hit the next best?

perhaps they feared our airpower would force them down?
 
93Rogue's Strikers
      ID: 33732119
      Wed, Sep 12, 15:25
Could also have been that the pilot overshot his target and went to plan B. I have to assume that flying a huge aircraft at low altitudes isn't very easy, especially when your aiming for the ground.

On a personal note, just got back from the blood bank. I feel pretty light-headed but just glad I could do something to help. I'd recommend everyone go, might make you feel better.
 
94Razor
      Donor
      ID: 305102622
      Wed, Sep 12, 15:31
The White House is supposedly small and tucked away behind trees and difficult to find, especially at high speeds.

I was under the impression that both the White House and Pentagon had anti-aircraft missiles. I may be wrong.
 
95Sludge
      Donor
      ID: 1440310
      Wed, Sep 12, 15:38
Razor -

Anti-aircraft missiles would actually do more harm than good in the case of an airliner. They would just spread the aircraft over a larger area. The missile, if fired from the immediate vicinity of the white house or pentagon, wouldn't stop the jet, just break it up.
 
96biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Wed, Sep 12, 15:45
I think the speculation that AF1 was a target may just be a cover story so that Bush doesn't look like such a pansy for not going directly back to Washington. Personally, I think it was a smart move regardless of how chicken he looked - you don't want your commander in chief on the front lines. Their have been those critical of him not being there, however.

- Weren't AF1 and dubya in Florida? There weren't any hijackings close to Florida.
- Ramming one jumbo jet into another would be extremely difficult. I imagine the captain of AF1 would be slightly more skilled than the terrorist pilot.

I just don't see it.
 
97Sludge
      Donor
      ID: 1440310
      Wed, Sep 12, 15:50
Not only is it a smart move, but it's S.O.P. in cases such as this. Any president would have done exactly the same. You don't send a general to the front line of a battle until after it's fought, despite what is portrayed in movies and tv.
 
98 Mark L
      Leader
      ID: 4444938
      Wed, Sep 12, 15:51
From cnn.com:


"BRUSSELS, Belgium (CNN) -- NATO, for the first time ever, has invoked the part of its charter that allows retaliation for any attack against one of its members.

The organization invoked Article Five in support of the United States one day after terrorists destroyed New York's World Trade Center and damaged the Pentagon.

The decision opens the way for NATO military and logistic support to any U.S. retaliation.

In Washington, Secretary of State Colin Powell said the statement would allow a possible collective response once the U.S. has identified who was responsible for the attacks."

 
99Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Wed, Sep 12, 15:53
Of course they could have been targeting AF1 while it was on the ground (not necessarily meaning to catch Bush in it). Just as with the aborted attack on the White House - these were symbolic attacks on the nation and the presidency.
 
100patjams
      ID: 27812119
      Wed, Sep 12, 15:54
Would've been symbolic, but that's about all. IIRC, there are two AF1's.
 
101wildyams/katietx
      ID: 247272010
      Wed, Sep 12, 16:05
RE: I think the speculation that AF1 was a target may just be a cover story so that Bush doesn't look like such a pansy for not going directly back to Washington. Personally, I
think it was a smart move regardless of how chicken he looked - you don't want your
commander in chief on the front lines. Their have been those critical of him not being there, however."

Actually, the fact that Bush did not return to DC immediately is SOP. He is flown to various secure AF bases throughout the country until it is determined safe to return to DC.

Since he was not taken to Cheyenne mountain is an indication that his safety was never compromised!

 
102Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 28861216
      Wed, Sep 12, 16:08
There are two planes, one is AF1 and the other is a backup, to be called AF1 if the first is out of commission.

The Transportation Sec just ordered the airports to open to take passengers already ticketed to their final destinations. Also banned curbside and off-site baggage check-in when the airports finally do open up.

pd
 
103Razor
      Donor
      ID: 305102622
      Wed, Sep 12, 16:09
Wouldn't spreading out the aircraft debris over a larger area be a good thing rather than the whole thing ramming the Pentagon?
 
104biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Wed, Sep 12, 16:09
Well we all agree the the prez did the right thing, not that too many here wouldn't.

But what about speculation about the origin and credibility of the story of AF1 as a target? Any insight?
 
105KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Wed, Sep 12, 16:12
Sludge in 94 nailed the most obvious reason why they went for the Pentagon instead of the White House. The White House is, indeed, "hidden" amongst a lot of trees and isn't as big of a target as the Pentagon (not even close). Consider that they actually didn't hit the Pentagon full force, because they crashed just short and the momentum drove them into the Pentagon, and it becomes even more understandable why they decided to go for the bigger, less "hidden" target. You also have to realize that there are buildings on the side of the White House that would make normal "entry" difficult. Otherwise, my personal estimate is that they would need to come in at an angle greater than 45-degrees to miss the Old Executive Building and any other surrounding buildings, unless they came in directly from the rear side of the White House (which is actually what most people think is the front side because it's the side they see most often in photos, TV, etc.), but there wouldn't be much room for error along that path.

I'm personally getting fed up with all the talk about how the President supposedly "wimped" out by not coming directly back to DC. There is no, absolutely NO, reason to put our President in harms way. At the time he left FLA, all planes flying over US airspace were not accounted for. Flying back to DC amid that cloud of suspicion would have been premature and highly ignorant. Further, the White House has reported that they had real and legitimate information that said AF-1 was a target even after landing in Louisiana. I've heard the reporters asking, "But weren't all the planes grounded at that time?" and I'm thinking that questions like that are what helped to get us here in the first place. How ignorant and blind are these people to think that the first method of attack is the only method of attack? Just because a plane was used for 3, and almost 4, attacks does NOT mean that one was intended for AF-1 and that there wasn't some other sort of legitimate attack planned out. Seriously, do these reporters think it's that easy to crash a plane into another plane when these guys seemed to have at least minor difficulties hitting unmoving targets? But all that is beside the point. There is no reason that I can ever think of that warrants putting our President in harms way. If there is even the remotest possibility that he is in harm's way, then something needs to be done to put him in a safer place. He is the icon of leadership, strength, and power for our country. You think we're mourning the loss of life and the loss of the WTC and Pentagon, just imagine if we lost our President also. I think too many of these congressmen have too much damn time on their hands right now and are spending too much time bickering over stupid crap rather than shutting up and offering their thoughts, prayers, and condolences to those who perished yesterday. I heard one yesterday, YESTERDAY!, not even 12 hours after the attacks saying that we needed to return to normalcy! I knew at that point that even a monkey could be a congressman because it obviously doesn't take any amount of a heart or brain to be one. Then again, that's not giving much credit to the monkey! I would love to hear the heroic stories of these congressmen and what they were doing during all of this. Then again, I doubt you'll get many of them to tell you that they were hiding away in their secret subway and underground bunkers wetting their pants, sucking their thumbs, and crying for "the big bad meanie to just go away." But 12 hours later, when the coast really is clear, it's soooooooo easy for them to stand in front of the camera and pretend to act like men and ask where the President is. Yeah, now that's what I call leadership! What morons!

Even I had large doubts about Bush after the election, but he is showing the nation right now that he is a leader. Far more of a leader than any of those congressmen are, in my opinion.

 
106Dave R
      Leader
      ID: 147341310
      Wed, Sep 12, 16:14
I could be wrong but wasn't Bush on the ground when this started, and then took off in AF1. That would mean a change in plans as I would guess they already had their targets lined up.
 
107KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Wed, Sep 12, 16:15
biliruben (104), all sources and news briefs I have heard say they will not discuss the information they have with regard to that. I would expect a leak within the next 24 hours or else we'll never know for a long time.
 
108KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Wed, Sep 12, 16:17
Dave R (106), yes, Bush was on the ground in Sarasota when this all started. They even took the time to do an extra search of AF-1 before taking off. As I mentioned in my lengthy post above, all planes were not landed and accounted for at the time they headed to Louisiana. There is speculation that all planes were landed and accounted for by the time they headed for Nebraska, but that doesn't mean much. Consider that most of the planes the attackers hijacked were very close to their intended targets and you have to think that some other form of attack was planned. And no, there's no way these guys didn't know where AF-1 was.
 
109sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Wed, Sep 12, 16:19
ref attempting to fly at low altitudes:

not a pilot, but I played one on TV once...lol nooooooooo

ok...as altitude decreases, the air turbulence between the fuselage and the ground increases in geometric proportions. Maintaining sufficient airspeed to remain airborne in a large fixed wing aircraft and be in control, is difficult at 300 ft. The Pentagon is 5 stories high. Thats put it at approx 55' plus the roofing. Call it 60' then. To fly a lumbering airliner (not exactly a nimble little plane) at 35' (so you hit the side of the bldg) would take either an incredibly skilled pilot OR an incredibly lucky one. Perhaps both.
 
110Razor
      Donor
      ID: 305102622
      Wed, Sep 12, 16:19
Ahem.
 
111sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Wed, Sep 12, 16:23
KKB...post105...OUTSTANDING!
 
112Dave R
      Leader
      ID: 147341310
      Wed, Sep 12, 16:29
KKB, I agree they knew where AF1 was but this was something that had to have been planned for awhile. Did they know back then, when the tickets were bought etc. where the plane would be. And could they be guaranteed that the plane would be airborn at the time of the attack.
 
113patjams
      ID: 27812119
      Wed, Sep 12, 17:15
I think that with the way Ari Fleischer was so evasive that there may have been another, entirely different threat involved here. Would make no sense why they couldn't just say if one of the planes was intended to take out AF1. I understand that they are trying to keep America informed without divulging how they obtain their information, but I think if it was one of the planes that was intended for AF1 they would have indicated such. May turn out to be that another attempted attack was thwarted.
 
114Sludge
      Donor
      ID: 56202214
      Wed, Sep 12, 17:15
KKB -

The post you cite in 105 was Razor's, not mine.

Razor 103 -

Imagine what would happen if, say, a missile was fired from the pentagon that succeeded in ripping off one of the wings of the airliner. Fuel is carried in those wings, by the way. It's extremely likely that the fuselage would have hit where it did, while a very good possibility that the wing would have hit another portion of the pentagon. Instead of having one hole and one fire raging out of control, you now have two holes and two fires raging out of control. The fewer pieces flying around, the less widespread the damage is.
 
115Cleveland Fan
      Donor
      ID: 384131723
      Wed, Sep 12, 17:29
I didn't hear anyone calling Bush a wimp and I have listen to news (and people) for 2 days now. I never was a Bush supporter, but at a time like this, we all have to stand together. I thought his speech sounded too stiff, like he was just reading, but such is life. We don't all have to be charismatic.
 
116Doug
      ID: 0737311
      Wed, Sep 12, 17:30
Unconfirmed, but from what I heard on CNN the plane flew down the mall, and tried to turn towards the White House before it got to the Washington Monument. That turn is too sharp to make for such a large plane at such high speed, and that's why they resorted to "plan B" of flying south and hitting the Pentagon. Frankly, it seems to me that an approach to the White House from a southernly direction would have made more sense. As for the fact that it's "nestled amongst trees", I severely doubt that a grove of trees would have lessened the impact... and they knew where it was, the Washington Monument is a VERY clear marker right in front of the White House. I don't think it matters how clearly they could "see it". I'm just suprised they didn't approach it from the south (and slightly west, approaching over the tidal basin), given how well planned the rest of their attack seems to have been executed. Also, all reports I've heard is that the plane DID directly hit the side of the Pentagon between the first and second floor, and that it did not hit the ground first. The reason this is known is because there is no impact crater dug into the ground in front of the building.

On another note, I wonder why this particular date was chosen (and I think the 911 = emergency theory is extraordinarily flimsy). I mean, the same flights are made every single week, so they could very well have identified their flights and targets weeks/months ago and then it's just a matter of what day to give the green light to the operation. If so, why did they choose yesterday specifically? What was the trigger for that event?

I can already hear people saying "don't try to rationalize with a madman" and blah blah blah... save the rhetoric... obviously whoever is in charge is very calculating, and probably didn't throw a dart at a calendar to pick their date. The day of week makes sense, as Tuesday is a light travel day (enabling easier takeover of the planes) but a heavy work day (ensuring full capacity at the targets), but why this Tuesday vs. last Tuesday vs. next Tuesday... either (1) it was a date that they picked a while ago (in which case there's no specific trigger event that precipitated this at all), or (2) something happened recently to motivate it, and I'm curious what that is. Our behavior at the UN racism conference jumps out at me as the most obvious thing, I'm just wondering if anyone else has any insights.

And just so nobody misconstrues my question, I'm not looking to point fingers or assign blame anywhere beyond the terrorists themselves, I'm just attempting to gain a better understanding of their reasoning, even if that reasoning is grotesque. As previously stated, I do firmly believe this was calculated with reason, so attempting to understand it is not at all a futile effort.
 
117azdbacker
      Donor
      ID: 51392423
      Wed, Sep 12, 17:43
Another possible reason for 9/11 which I have not seen expressed anywhere.

There are many respected students of Biblical hitory who believe, as I do, that Jesus Christ was born on what would have been September 11 of the year 3BC. 9/11 is recognized as Christ's birthday in the ministry I belong to. If we, as a biblical research ministry based in the US, believe that to be true - there's reason to believe those whose mission in life is to destroy Christianity would have the same knowledge.
 
118Doug
      ID: 0737311
      Wed, Sep 12, 17:53
A quick search on Google brought up a couple articles elucidating the credibility of this Sollog joker... one from 5 years ago and one last year. Confirming my suspicions, I didn't bother to go any farther.

philly

skeptic
 
119GoatLocker
      ID: 226141512
      Wed, Sep 12, 18:08
Here are the new FAA regulations now put into affect.

The Federal Aviation Administration's increased security initiatives include
the following:

* Discontinued curbside check-in and off airport checked baggage
acceptance.
* Suspension of unaccompanied minor travel and pet transport programs.
* Limited access beyond security checkpoint only for passengers with
tickets or E Ticket confirmations.
* Mail and non-freighter cargo suspended for 48 hours.
* Aircraft security sweeps similar to those conducted during the
Persian Gulf War.
* Banning of all unattended vehicles near terminals.
* No knives of any size on any flights.
* Sale of knife-like items banned at airports.
* Heightened vigilance for unattended bags.
* Passenger ID checks after check-in.
* Reduced access points to secured areas.
* Increased passenger and baggage security screenings at all airports.
* Search of all aircraft cargo and passenger compartments.
* Uniformed law enforcement and military presence at airports
increased.
* Sky Marshals deployed.
* Random searches of service personnel, flight crews, and equipment.

Got it in an email from work.

Cliff
 
120BillB
      Sustainer
      ID: 493403019
      Wed, Sep 12, 18:36
azb...that is very chilling, if it has any basis...
 
121Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 28861216
      Wed, Sep 12, 19:10
Just to help get us off this numerology fix. Some points:

-a specific date being selected for this attack would have to have significance for the attackers, not for the attacked;

-while it's certain that the attackers knew that 911 on the phone dial means emergency help to Americans, if the attackers were Muslim September 11 is, for the,, the 22nd day of Jumada II, in the year 1422. (in other words, instead of it being 9/11/01 it is 6/22/22);

-unless our security or emergency response is lower on this "911" day than other days, the attackers seem to gain no advantage from the selection of this date;

One event of this date which might have significance:

-It's the anniversary of the death of Quaid-i-Azam Mohammed Ali Jinnah, first Govenor-General(and founder) of Pakistan, of natural causes in Karachi. Not a nice man. Yesterday was Jinnah Day in Pakistan.

BTW, the Camp David Accords were signed September 17, 1978.

pd
 
122patjams
      ID: 27812119
      Wed, Sep 12, 19:18
It is already a fact that Bin Ladin attacked the WTC in '93 "in order to cause Americans to believe that the pillars of their capitalism (the Towers) could be crumbled", therefore I'd say that he does use symbolism in his attacks. We may never know if the date is significant, but the symbolism is there even if they did not intend it to be. This day will always be '911' day. I wouldn't even be surprised to see this date proclaimed a national holiday in the years to come.
 
123azdbacker
      Donor
      ID: 51392423
      Wed, Sep 12, 19:19
PD - if they were attacking Christianity, which indeed they were, why would the date of Jesus Christ's birth not be a significant symbolic reason in their OWN minds? I believe it would be - although it's pure speculation that there was any reason for this particular date. In fact, if I were in their shoes, it would be almost an inside joke - as most Christians have no clue that 9/11 was an important day in their religion.
 
124biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Wed, Sep 12, 19:31
On the otherhand, Tuesday morning the best gurupie footballer had a WWR of 666. Hmmmm...

Hope it ain't too early for an ounce of levity.
 
125azdbacker
      Donor
      ID: 51392423
      Wed, Sep 12, 19:34
I would say the timing was perfect, biliruben. I almost lol.
 
126sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Wed, Sep 12, 19:34
this was not planned days/weeks or even months ago. The planning began YEARS ago. 2 of the hijackers had been enrolled in a FL flight school. They began pilot training JULY 2000. Nothing happened recently to precipitate this attack. The date of 9/11/2001 for the attack, was more than liekly selected long ago, for purely logistical reasons. Little point in debating the topic, as there is no way of knowing who, if anyone has come up with the reason.
 
127Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 28861216
      Wed, Sep 12, 19:46
adz, if they were, indeed, attacking Christianity I think that they would have attacked religious, rather than capitalist, military, and political targets.

I also think that if they chose their attack day based on its significance for Christianity, they would have picked a day with significance for more than a minority of Christians, let alone Americans.

No offense, of course, since the day you celebrate your Savior's birthday is your own affair. But a terror campaign is meant to spread widespread damage (physical and psychological). The fact that most Christians, let alone Americans, do not look upon 9/11 as being a religious day of significance is proof that an attack on that day was not planned with a religious significance in mind.

pd
 
128Sandlot
      Donor
      ID: 5343219
      Wed, Sep 12, 20:27
I think the front page of the online version of the SF Examiner sums it up best. I'm sure the print version is the same. I'd love to pick up a copy.

SF Examiner
 
129 Mike D
      Donor
      ID: 348441022
      Wed, Sep 12, 20:47
 
130bdt44
      ID: 4487916
      Wed, Sep 12, 20:56
I got this message emailed to me from a friend. I'm not sure where he got it from....may have been from somewhere on these boards....but thought I would post it anyway. It's writen by someone from Canada who obviously isnt quite the ass our fellow poster TLW is. But here goes.....

America: The Good Neighbor.

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.


When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the
streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."

Stand proud, America!
 
131Piccolos
      ID: 448211216
      Wed, Sep 12, 20:58
I'm from Canada and I thought many of you might want to check out the Toronto Sun today. It typifies many of ours and your sentiments.

Here's The Front Page of the Toronto Sun.
 
132Doug
      ID: 0737311
      Wed, Sep 12, 21:00
Sarge, I couldn't disagree with you more wholeheartedly (though respectfully).

Just because the planning began years ago, doesn't necessarily mean nothing happened recently to precipitate it. The US military all sorts of plans as to how we would move into Korea, Iraq, or other global hotspots, and should something occur that we feel we need to get involved militarily, then we act on those plans (adjusting of course for the particular circumstances). But we don't move in for no reason.

I see know reason to believe that the terrorists are any less calculating in their actions. They do not have the same resources available to them, so they "improvise" and concoct plans such as those that were executed yesterday. It MAY be the case that the timing was purely logistical, but can you give me any possible reason why 9/11 would have been more logistically efficient for such an operation than 9/18 would have been? Same flights, same routes, same times... The only reason I can come up with would be if this had been an inside job, and certain pilots or crew members had all been scheduled to work today. I don't believe this was the case at all, however, from all indications of cell phone conversations, etc... in fact it appears the crew may even have helped thwart one of the attack attempts. It would seem to me on the surface that the plans were more or less in place, as you say, years in advance, and therefore that whoever's in charge (presumably bin Laden) was finally motivated to say "now".

So to categorically state that this date was selected for logistical reasons and nothing happened recently to precipitate it seems extraordinarily presumptuous to me in the absence of evidence to support that claim.

Furthermore, I think there is great significance in debating the topic, because I think these are exactly the sorts of questions we need to understand the answers to. The best way to prepare to deal with any given enemy is to first understand how and why he operates, not to throw up are hands and say "Gee, I don't know why they did that". And not to get to the general "because they hate us" answers, but deeper... WHY do they hate us answers... what are our specific policies and actions are abroad that generate this sort of response? The answers won't come easy, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't at least try. As the old cliche goes, those who don't understand history (even recent history) are doomed to repeat it.
 
1336-9 With The Afro
      ID: 318551020
      Wed, Sep 12, 21:08
Mike D 129: Very nice. I need to get a flag for my car. All of us need to make sure that any image that can be seen overseas shows our flag flying high and proud.
 
134puckprophet
      ID: 52712723
      Wed, Sep 12, 21:17
anyone with Microsoft flight simulator can fly that mission , (or train) with any type of plane...its practically a blueprint for NY/eastern seaboard.
 
135ChicagoTRS
      Sustainer
      ID: 117541522
      Wed, Sep 12, 22:11
For those flying the flag please read up on how to fly it correctly.

Flag dos and donts

May seem unimportant to some but the flag is something to be respected and if it is flown do it the right way.
 
136Matt S
      Donor
      ID: 57543213
      Wed, Sep 12, 22:13
Puckprophet - I think I saw the same feature on Global TV Canada about the MS Flight simulator.

It showed how you can download an add-on to learn how to fly a 757, you can start at the same Boston airport, and have the same Los Angeles destination, and you can crash into the WTC just as it happened. Somebody doing this hundreds of times, would easily get the distances, and other calculations down to a tee. Easy training.

Chilling
Matt S
 
137Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 28861216
      Wed, Sep 12, 23:09
Looks like they took the time to train on actual planes, from the FBI tonight. No knock on MS Simulator, but there's nothing like training on the real thing, it seems.

pd
 
138F Gump
      ID: 53837117
      Wed, Sep 12, 23:13
Re the date chosen, a few observations:

1) From what I have read of Bin Laden and his terrorist attempts, his operations are years in the planning and get scrubbed if anything goes wrong. This link posted earlier by Khahan, from msnbc, is quite enlightening. This article is chilling, in that (with things like this taking years to plan) it would indicate that many future acts of terror ARE ALREADY BEING PUT INTO PLACE.
2) It is obvious that they wanted a day with the offices full. So, they want September, after summer vacations are over.
3) They want Mon-Fri, same reason.
4) They want a semi-empty plane, so Tuesday is best day as noted above (post 116). From my travel experience, some airlines give better fares on Tuesdays in an attempt to try to overcome the low demand on that day.
5) The FIRST Tuesday in September was the day after Labor Day, so possible congestion on plane similar to a Monday. Also possibility of people taking an "extra day off" and not filling the towers.

CONCLUSION: the first OPTIMUM day, for their purposes, would be Tues the 11th. No historical significance, no "message" to that date, just the practical outworking of the first (and thus best) date that meets their criteria and promises maximum damage. Everybody back to work after summer vacations, everybody back to work after Labor Day, light capacity on air travel, and the "first available day after summer" - all those add up to the 11th.

Note also that, once they are "ready", then the FIRST optimum day for them will be the BEST, given their willingness to scrap the whole thing if needed.

 
139Khahan
      ID: 567232217
      Wed, Sep 12, 23:25
Excellent points Gump. While many looks at religious reasons, proving points etc are worth considering, I think its a good idea to look at the simplest reasons first.
The simplest explaination is that this was the first optimum day.
.
On another topic, I just read in another forum somebody saying we should '..catch whoever responsible and lock them up for their entire life.'
I was dumbfounded.
 
140sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Wed, Sep 12, 23:32
Doug (rwef post 132): I don't mean to state definitively that the date was selected purely for logistical reasons. Why 9/11 and not 9/18? Because that would have meant having the cell in place too long perhaps? The longer the cell members are here, the greater the chance of their discovery and therefore apprehension before the mission can be executed. Just a 'for example' to answer your question.

On the surface, I'd agree entirely that we need to try and understand the mind of the terrorist. In practice however, this is virtually impossible. Why? Because their thought processes are totally different from yours and mine. We think in terms of repercussions/consequences and the like. It's unavoidable, since it's the way we were raised and the method of deduction we were taught since we were old enough to begin to truly analyze that which we took in via our senses. The terrorist is different from the very outset. His/hers is largely a religious/societal difference to a degree which we are unable to even comprehend. They truly believe (the cell members at any rate), that by committing suicide while attacking the Great Satan, their place in Heaven is assured. For whatever twisted reasons, they have determined that the U.S. is this Great Satan. To debate logically, that if we are so 'evil', why do they send their children to our colleges and universities, makes no difference. Bin Ladin was U.S. educated, as were most of the terrorist leadership around the globe. Yet he insists that we are evil incarnate. What I have begun to believe after working this arena for a number of years, is that the terrorist leadership is nomore a fanatic than you or I. What he/she is, is manipulative/egomaniacal and 200 yrs ago probably would have been a 'great leader' in an emerging nation. Bringing it to military power and conquering its neighbors. In todays world however, there is no room for such action. Hence, those who would make themselves into a global power, must do so via these types of means. Times have changed however. Expansion through conquest is no longer acceptable. Hitler found this out.

The world can no longer afford to allow such militaristic attitudes to prevail. 400 yrs ago, 10,000 would die in a single battle. Only because each 'side' brought 10,000 to the battlefield to begin with. War was difficult to engage in. Men were better use to the King, working in the fields than on the battlefield. With technological advancement however, we can still inflict casualty counts of 10,000. Now though, we only need a few people to get that job accomplished. Because so few, are capable of wreaking so much destruction, the world has come to realize that such cannot be tolerated.

In order though for a few to do this, planning, meticulous, long term, rehearsed planning is required. To assume that Bin Ladin does not have training resources which would rival our own military's...is a fatal error in judgement. His people train in urban and building assault...using the same training methods as our own Special Forces personnel. His 'sharpshooter' practice, using the same techniques as our city SWAT does.His bomb squads, are every bit as adept at bomb manufacture and detonation, as any Navy SEAL. Realistically, I have little doubt that this idea has grown over something along a 5 yr period. (Total time from first conception to execution.) Think about what it would take. From first having the notion. Then you start to think about the how. Then you consider what would be required. Manpower, equipment, skill sets, documentation, housing, transportation, training etc etc etc. This was no haphazard, gee...now the U.S. has REALLY pi$$ed me off so I'm gonna do 'this' to them now...kind of thing. This was started a long, long time ago and is very close to what Bin Ladin has been working toward for his entire adult life.
 
141Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 28861216
      Wed, Sep 12, 23:34
Great post, Gump.

Khahan, there is a point behind not letting those who did this take the coward's way out in letting us kill them right away. After all, many terrorists believe that their deaths at the hands of their enemies only makes their heavenly ascent come that much more quickly.

I've always felt that life-in-prison without possibility of release is certainly a harsher penalty for the guilty, and continues to allow them to be used as examples for others as long as they live. These people do not value life, even their own. They should not have the ability to choose their own punishment, particularly the easy way out.

pd
 
142wildyams/katietx
      ID: 3483513
      Wed, Sep 12, 23:36
Perm...they can believe whatever they want regarding their death in a holy war. We know where they will be...and it won't be sitting at the feet of Allah!

 
143steve houpt
      ID: 208461016
      Wed, Sep 12, 23:37
Great post KKB #105.

I listened to the questions at Ari Fleischers press briefing today. Went looking for the nerf balls to throw at TV .

My questions to the press - Why do not have to engage your brain before you ask a question? Is asking any question any time better than occasionally asking a good question?

Today is only Wednesday. They acted like, hey the 4 hijacked planes had crashed. What did you know that made you think there was still a threat?

How many here felt sure everything was OVER after gearing a plane crashed in PA? And even when they reported all planes 'were' accounted for?

 
144puckprophet
      ID: 52712723
      Wed, Sep 12, 23:38
with bin laden reputed to have 60 pilots ,(an ample teaching force) , and numerous hands-on trainees , it's no wonder they were pinpoint accurate...
 
145sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Wed, Sep 12, 23:39
PD-This was NOT a crinminal act, deserving of juris-prudence and due process. This was an act of war. I do not recall as a soldier, ever having to 'prove guilt' on the part of the enemy before I fired upon them. Neither will we here. Drop the entire notion of a trial. The only trial they will get...is one by fire. Trust me on this.
 
146Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 28861216
      Wed, Sep 12, 23:51
Sarge, of course I don't trust you to lay out a logical process! If, for example, the person behind this happens to be a head of state, our own laws and international treaties to which we belong prohibit us from their assasination. We be obliged to make efforts at catching them and bringing them to trial. We're not all grunts here.

katiex, while I tend to agree, it's probably not wise to get involved in differences of religious belief, no matter what we think about someone else's.

pd
 
147puckprophet
      ID: 52712723
      Thu, Sep 13, 00:01
i say 'Put Sarge In Charge'...
 
148azdbacker
      Donor
      ID: 51392423
      Thu, Sep 13, 01:29
PD, post 127. Good points. I imagine that was just something that seemed like a personal slap in the face to me, not the likely thought process behind the day - if there was one.
 
149Doug
      ID: 0737311
      Thu, Sep 13, 01:31
I'm a patriotic American Christian, but I feel the need to state that I find the attitude expressed in the brief post #142 hypocritical, narrowminded, and offensive... it literally sickens my stomach, as it assumes the same sort of religious/moral righteousness and superiority as that espoused by the perpetrators of this act of war. I realize it's just rhetoric, but this is why people hate Americans. For example, if you were just to flip flop the perspective the author to that of a terrorist, you might end up with words like "the people of the Great Satan can believe whatever they want regarding the righteousness of their cause. We know where they will be...and it won't be sitting at the feet of Allah!" Most of us would condemn such ignorant statements, so why would we make analagous statements ourselves? Note that I'm making absolutely NO judgement as to your personal morality, and not at all comparing YOU to THEM, etc... I presume you are a decent and civilized individual. It's just that find the oversimplified "we're right, you're wrong, so there" attitude to be so maddening and disturbing on either side of the political/religious/moral fence. I realize I'm expressing myself strongly here, and I'm sorry to single out that one post because there have been others as well... but I just felt so compelled to at least share my two cents.

F Gump... thanks for reposting that link... excellent reading. I especially appreciate your analysis as to the choice of the 9.11 date... that's exactly the type of thing I was looking for. I had figured not last Tuesday because of Labor Day, but hadn't considered August vacations. I still wonder if there may have been some precipitating event, but yours is by far the most plausible theory I've encountered.

Sarge, I think we're mostly on the same page, but on the one hand you say that it's virtually impossible to understand the mind of a terrorist, but then proceed to provide just such an explanation. It all seemed pretty clear to me and not at all that hard to understand. And just because I understand their mentality (at least in part) certainly doesn't mean I agree with it. I mean, I think I can basically understand the mentality of a mass murderer, white supremacists, and all sorts of other freaks if it is explained to me. Terrorists are no different. It's just a matter of grasping their paradigm... that America is the Great Satan, the importance of dying for their cause, etc. Something that ordinarily seems completely illogical to me actually can make sense when looked at in that light. So I don't think such understanding is virtually impossible, it just requires a willingness to drop your own set of moral/rational assumptions about the world while you attempt to stand in another's shoes. Thanks for the insights that you did in fact provide, they were helpful.

Anyway, there's no doubt that the desire to act against the US has been on OBL's agenda for a long time, and that this attack was just the latest in a line of attacks (some thwarted), and that plans for future attacks are already in place. It's just a question of whether and when they will be executed, and given that, you can see why I'd want to attempt to understand the specific motivation for the execution and timing of this latest one, as I expect there will be more to come. Obviously, this is the really much more the realm of intelligence professionals, and I'm playing armchair CIA analyst, but I think to be an informed citizen it's a good intellectual exercise to at least consider these things (and once again, props to Gump and sarge for sharing their takes on it)
 
150azdbacker
      Donor
      ID: 51392423
      Thu, Sep 13, 01:57
Doug, if you aren't clear in your belief in your own 'political/religious/moral fence' my sincerest sympathy goes out to you. It is my strong belief, strong enough that I would lay my life down to defend it, that a country or people that would commit an act of out-and-out terrorism like this is clearly on the wrong side of the 'political/religious/moral fence'. Be outraged all you want, I'm more concerned that you are apparently not secure enough in your beliefs. There is no gray area here. If you are a 'patriotic American Christian' or a Christian of any kind - then you know that they are wrong, no ifs, and or butts. No gray areas here.

It isn't arrogance. It IS belief in the Bible, which you obviously don't have much of. That's what offends ME, not that you don't seems to have strong belief in the Bible (that's your choice), but that you labeled yourself as a Christian. What is offensive is someone pretending to have strong beliefs and then be unwilling to walk with boldness upon them, and comparing those that do walk boldly on beliefs you claim to share to those that walk upon beliefs that you know are wrong.
 
151 The Beezer
      Leader
      ID: 578261
      Thu, Sep 13, 02:19
I've been following this discussion for the past 2 days, and appreciate all of the news, insights, and discussions of my fellow board members. The following article says what I've been thinking about how to deal with this tragedy as well as any I've read, and I wanted to pass it along.

Don't let our values become casualties, too...
 
152Madman
      ID: 68361122
      Thu, Sep 13, 02:59
Missed a lot of this. Two points / counter-points . . .

a) Like biliruben, I am very confused and concerned about the notion that the terrorists had a credible attack plan to disable Air Force One. True or false, this was a disconcerting point that I still cannot explain. I pray that it was mentioned for noble and not nefarious reasons.

b) Quote from Beezer's article: "Blaming any one national or religious group for the wrongdoing of a small number of its members would be as foolish today as it would have been, in 1945, to try to punish all the Germans."

I cannot disagree more. The notion of international courts of laws will be used against us and our values; the only question is when. Although it is appealing to claim that there are moralistic components to international law, the fact of the matter is that might makes right on that level. If Japan had won the war, FDR/Truman would have been hung for their war crimes.

Instead of this approach which calls for us to impose our moralistic structure on the world through an artificially constructed puppet "court system", I think we should simply and boldly state that this was an attack on our culture. Like all cultures in existence, we reserve the right to defend our culture using force, just like our enemies claim the right to attack our culture using force.

It is a fact of life that nations are held accountable because of the actions of a few leaders. Almost comically, however, this is a fact denied in Ms. Cobban's piece. By attempting to draw our focus to the post-war resolution of the WWII crisis, she is hoping that we'll forget that it was an unweilding defense of our culture that allowed those "war criminals" to be brought to justice to begin with. FDR didn't say "We shall root out Hitler's henchmen and bring them to justice for this unprovoked declaration of war". No, he said "We'll bring them to their knees" (paraphrased). Only THEN did legal considerations take pre-eminence.

She basically argues that we should not engage in a war to bring future war criminals to justice. I applaud her pacifistic notions, but question the logical connectedness of her own work.

In this case, we know that the slave-trading Sudanese government has been involved in harboring and supporting terrorist activities that have resulted in American civilians dying. We called that an act of war when it occurred, and we should have the guts to back that rhetoric up with real force (i.e., something more substantial than the bombing of an aspirin factory).

Similarly, if there appears to be a strong Iraqi or Sudanese or Afghan or whomever (all via bin Laden) connection to this action, we should leave all attack options open regarding that nation-state. The actions of a few misguided leaders should INDEED be sufficient reason to engage in a a war against a nation.

Or, for another likely scenario, if the Taliban were involved, we should consider sending billions of dollars of military equipment and hardware to their mortal enemies (assuming we can't / don't go in ourselves). Everything should be on the table.

Thus, contrary to Ms. Cobban, I see no reason to hold a hand of friendship out to the people and organizations that have implicitly and/or explicitly supported, supplied, and funded those who have attacked us so viciously. The idea that we must avoid collateral damage and overkill is an idea that the terrorists are relying on us to play. They perceive it to be one of our many moral weaknesses that will eventually allow them to vanquish our culture. They may be right.

Basically, I think we should simply given the Taliban, Sudanese, Iraqui's and anyone else who has engaged in terrorist activities against us over the past 4 years an ultimatum to immediately cease and desist their attempts to destroy us. And if they refuse to co-operate, they should be made to pay dearly. And that will inevitably result in collateral damage and many thousands of innocents dying, unfortunate though that may be.
 
153azdbacker
      Donor
      ID: 51392423
      Thu, Sep 13, 03:13
Well said, Madman.
 
154The Beezer
      Leader
      ID: 578261
      Thu, Sep 13, 03:41
Good post Madman. I won't presume to speak for Ms. Cobban, but I think the primary point that she was attempting to make is that if we do decide to take military action against the Talibad, Iraq, or any other group, we have to not only make sure that their leadership is taken out of command, we also have to address the conditions that led to their being in command in the first place.

Killing the masterminds and even the organizations that are most likely behind this plot, taking away the war-making capability of any countries that harbored this evil, and doing everything in our power to prevent them having the capability to hurt us again will only make the resolve of those that hate us stronger, unless we try to address those issues that lead to such anger and hate. We made a mistake after WWI of leaving the Germans to fend for themselves, and we will make an equally grave error if we exact our revenge and then do nothing to assist those that remain to pick up the pieces. Even if they are unable to strike back today, there always comes a time when those that want revenge badly enough will take it. And with the rate of technological change, that price may be the end of all civilization as we know it.

Honestly, I don't even know where to begin in terms of a long-term solution to this problem, because the roots of it are thousands of years old. However, if we don't make a sustained effort once we have made our retribution to reshape the attitudes of those that hate us, the cycle of violence will continue and escalate. The sons and daughters of the WWI generation had to pay a horrible price for letting the seeds of hate fester; our children and grandchildren will have to bear the fruits of our seeds sown today. What shall they reap?
 
155Madman
      ID: 68361122
      Thu, Sep 13, 04:15
Beezer -- maybe your interpretation of her primary point is the one she tried to make. I didn't read it that way, obviously, since your interpretation is more reasoned, IMO.

Like you, however, I don't see any effective means of convincing the average person in these countries to not hate the U.S. It's too deeply imbedded, at least for the time being.

However, there are some things we can strive to do:

a) even without dismantling the governments who harbor terrorists, make it so costly to do so that they will choose not to. This can be a combination of repeated, random military attacks. Or maybe inroads with moderate Muslim nations that apply costly peer pressure. Whatever.

b) Ensure that U.S.-friendly dictators take over. It IS possible to have the government be more moderate to the U.S. than the people (i.e., Saudi Arabia). And although even Saudi Arabia keeps information from us, as far as I know, they aren't actively supporting these groups (I HOPE).

c) getting involved on the side of moderate Muslims in civil wars and other political conflicts -- aiding their ascension to power. Reagan tried (pathetically, it turned out) to do that with Iran in the mid 1980's. We could do it with anti-Taliban forces, the rebels in Sudan, etc. At least this would drain the governments that are hostile to us.

d) We'll have to carefully define "victory" here. There is little hope of living in a world where terrorist actions against the U.S. never happen. But maybe we can get involved in certain countries and prevent THEM from getting involved against us. Taking out a piece here and a piece there. Not a great long-term solution, but we are now at a cross-roads, I think.

Right now, we can either sit by and take the status quo, and continue to embolden terrorists. Yeah, we may launch 50 cruise missiles from time to time at one of their training facilities to "send a message" but that'll do. This is basically the "peace" will win out approach that I had interpreted Cobban to be advocating.

Or, we can say enough is enough. Yes, they may continue to launch attacks against us. And yes, this may cause our gas prices to skyrocket. And yes, we may be risking all of our economic prosperity (i.e., if an oil embargo were to really hit). But right now, the terrorists, although becoming emboldened, don't have the resources to strike at us directly. Therefore, this paradigm says that even if we know we may not win, we must fight now, with everything we've got (note: diplomatic assets AND military ones) to defend ourselves.

Honestly, I don't know that I have a lot of confidence that we can do the second action. I question our resolve as a nation. Not today, but two years from now. Or 5 years from now. Just three days ago, intelligence budgets were (in effect) being raided as part of an attempt to protect an imaginary "lock box". And for the last 25 years we've refused to engage in humanitarian intelligence because of the concurrent moral qualms. These goals and concerns will again raise up. Will our desire to continue the fight against an invisible enemy remain strong? What if we have to suffer prolonged economic hardship? Especially when the alternative -- caving in -- will appear increasingly attractive. Even today, I heard some on TV that we should abandon Israel and other positions that are unpopular in the Muslim world. The allure of peace will be strong. And a "war" requires us to sometimes be on the offensive -- taking pre-emptive action that will be relatively hard to sell to a weary population.

I don't know. I'd like to think our leaders would be wise enough to act in our long-term strategic best interests, and stay the course required by option 2. But, I'm then reminded that these are the next generation descendants of leaders that put us in the current situation . . . and my faith becomes troubled.

There are no easy answers. And maybe I should be basking in the patriotic fervor that is sweeping the country right now. But this issue is indeed quite complex. And the calls for moderation will soon come again; in some sense this sort of empathy and compassion is one of America's greatest traits. But in a fight against terrorism, it may also sadly prove to be our greatest weakness.

Only time will tell.
 
156Dan
      Donor
      ID: 45054169
      Thu, Sep 13, 05:38
Thanks to everybody who sent in the info about the Google message board as it seems to have had some relevance!
FBI taps ISPs in hunt for attackers
 
157sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Thu, Sep 13, 06:16
PD et al: Please, listen to what our President is saying. Listen to the journalists and understand the signifigance of the word being deliberately chosen..."Act of WAR" Pres Bush is saying this over and over and over, for a very specific reason. WE ARE AT WAR. Make no mistake. When at war, you do NOT bother with juris prudence. You do not introduce a court room, its formalities, and its potential for acquittal. NATO invoked Chapter 5 of the Washington Treaty, essentially returning the Declaration of War. We are one world, with the majority of its peoples currently prepared to excercise substantial military force, in an organized, coordinated, multi-targeted operation. The French, British, Dutch, German, American, Saudi, Israeli, Greek, Italian, Canadian, Japanese, Russian, Egytian and other nations will all contribute either manpower, hardware, finances and or intelligence...and in multiple countries, there will be simultaneous military interventions at terrorist training/housing areas. A worldwide effort will be made in the not too terribly distant future, to eradicate the majority of the terrorist operations. There will be repercussions. Rest assured. However in the end, the state of the terrorist as we know them today, will be setback 20 yrs or more.

PD- Please. International law prohibits the assassination of heads of state. Sure does. *shrug* Won't be the first time international law was 'violated' for the sake of the good of mankind, damn sure won't be the last time either. I can state absolutely and for a definitive fact: Many of you, have NO CLUE, what our Intelligence network, covert operations organizations, have to do in order to get their jobs done. Perhaps this is for the best. It's not a c'clean' job with nice tidy rules in place. It's damn dirty work. And sometimes, it gets to be abit bloody too.
 
158F Gump
      ID: 53837117
      Thu, Sep 13, 06:31
In response to Madman (post 152) and the general concept of how should/will the US respond ....

Here is the logical progression as I see it - I will make the (what seems to be apparent) conclusion that Bin Laden was behind this attack:
1) Bin Laden is a singular individual, yes.
2) He is harbored and protected by the Afghani leaders, however.
3) As such, they are taking de facto responsibility for his actions.
4) Thus, anything he does against the US must be construed as with the permission of the Afghani government itself.

Okay, let me elaborate on point 4 before continuing, cause this is the crux of what follows. If a country is ATTACKED MILITARILY (which is what this is) by outsiders, then whether or not those "outsiders" are OFFICIAL ATTACKERS or not is irrelevant. It is a military action, pure and simple. And those who protect them are in essence PROMOTING their actions (and the continuation thereof).

It is well documented that the US has previously been thwarted by the Afghani leaders in apprehending Bin Laden. So IF THEY (THE TALIBAN) CONTINUE at this point (again making the progression that he did indeed do this) then they will also be "the enemy" in this coming war.

Their alternate option: hand over Bin Laden. Or give our troops free access to enter their country and do so.

5) One other VITAL VITAL point to ponder. The US government at this point MUST take action (or, better stated: go to war). There has already been a MILITARY attack. And - this is crucial - to do NOTHING basically allows another, and another, and another. And our leaders are well aware that allowing "just one more" is unacceptable.

Additionally, no other country would be able to blithely "accept" such actions against their citizens either. So the US will have the full support of all industrialized countries.

SO, MY CONCLUSION:
The US will gather definitive evidence that Bin Laden was the guilty party. They will then go to the Taliban with an ultimatum. If the Afghans agree, the US troops enter and hunt down and take Bin Laden and his group - dead or alive. If not, the US declares war (with a huge alliance) against not only Bin Laden but Afghanistan itself, plus any supporters of it. PERIOD.

There is war coming. No way around it, the first attack has already been made. The only question at this point is who will choose to be on the other side.
 
159sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Thu, Sep 13, 06:36
F Gump: Your posy (I htink it was 138 where you defined the logical selection of 9/11) was as excellent a piece of deductive logic as I've seen in sometime. OUTSTANDING grasp on your part.

Diddo your post directly above. This is a WAR. People had better get used to that idea, because its too late for thinking in any other terms. Reality is reality, and the simple truth is...America is a nation at war. Fortunately, we are not alone.
 
160sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Thu, Sep 13, 06:55
that this child even understands the magnitude, is truly a sad statement indeed:

sad, but beautiful picture
 
161Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Thu, Sep 13, 07:36
Geez. Two Amtrak trains have collided in Utah. no word yet on casualties
 
162KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Thu, Sep 13, 07:50
Myboyjack, CNN reports: 200 people aboard total; 3 overturned cars. No link to terrorist attacks at this point.
 
163F Gump
      ID: 53837117
      Thu, Sep 13, 07:59
Unfortunately, KKB, Amtrak's safety record is such that they are likely to do more danage WITHOUT terrorist help, it seems.
 
164KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Thu, Sep 13, 08:05
F Gump, yeah, no lie. I was thinking the same thing.

CNN Update: Part of I-80 shutdown due to Amtrak crash. Appears to be a freight train and an Amtrak train that crashed.

 
165WiddleAvi
      ID: 9830119
      Thu, Sep 13, 08:33
Doug - In response to post 149. No one is saying whose religion is the correct one. Maybe Allah is the god of the universe. But let me tell you one thing , whichever god is the "real" one he does not reward people for doing something like this. That I am sure about.
 
1666-9 With The Afro
      ID: 97969
      Thu, Sep 13, 08:51
Right on, WiddleAvi.
 
167patjams
      ID: 22858138
      Thu, Sep 13, 09:30
Re: 152 - Excellent post Madman. The only thing I would add is that they've just had a hand in killing 10,000+ of our innocent countrymen and women, the time for ultimatums have passed. Fight fire with fire.
 
168The_Mentors
      ID: 9432248
      Thu, Sep 13, 09:43
You murder innocent people and you go to heaven.

Behind many of the worlds most horrible events there has been religion.

 
169Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 28861216
      Thu, Sep 13, 09:58
WiddleAvi (165), while you and I might believe that God does not reward those who commit such acts, it's also true that, as a religious belief, there are those that feel they will be rewarded. Religious belief is just one area that there will never be agreement, particularly in something like this where religious belief is being used as justification for political beliefs.

Sarge, there's little to say to you here. You have chosen to be a grunt now, and that's fine. War is conducted on many levels: the common soldiers who do the real work, killing those they are told to kill, logistical and supplies, officers who plan and coordinate attacks, and the leaders who tell us when to start and stop shooting. The farther down you go, the fewer clues there are around.

While Bush has (correctly, IMO) included those who harbor with the terrorists themselves (if, indeed, they are different parties), our conduct when it comes to war against a state versus a war against stateless groups is different. We have greater tools at our disposal against a state, for instance, while at the same time are constrained from other actions

Sarge, ask yourself why Noriega wasn't just taken out by Reagan. Or why Hussein wasn't just taken out by Bush, Sr. While on your grunt level war might just seem like an indiscriminant shooting at the "bad guys," there are many other levels of war of which you are unaware, levels which are actually pulling the strings to which you've attached yourself.

pd
 
170biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 231045110
      Thu, Sep 13, 10:07
My president has not inspired confidence in me during this crisis.

Personally, I think what was done, flying to Nebraska, was correct. Whether it was SOP or not, the president returning to Washington matters to me not one iota.

What does bother me is two things:

1 - that they didn't just say that this is SOP, instead of seemingly making up a story about a direct threat to AF1.

2 - Let me quote a NYT (sorry, Madman) article which had access to Rove's notes:

As Air Force One, flying north from Sarasota, crossed over the Florida Panhandle, Mr. Rove said, Mr. Bush made it clear that he wanted to go to Washington and nowhere else. That would have been sometime between 10 and 11 a.m., after planes had hit the two Trade Center towers and the Pentagon. The Pentagon attack, the third in the sequence, occurred at 9:45 a.m.

The other official said that Mr. Cheney was first told that the plane heading for the White House might be an airliner, private plane or helicopter loaded with explosives. But by the time Mr. Bush made his first request to return to Washington, which was rebuffed by the Secret Service, that plane was no longer any threat to the White House, since it had hit the Pentagon.

Another hijacked plane, United Airlines Flight 93, plunged into a field southeast of Pittsburgh about 10:10 a.m., and word of that crash took some time to seep out. The security officers may still have considered it unaccounted for, and hence a threat, when they warned the president.

But at 1:25 p.m., Mr. Rove's notes show, Mr. Bush turned to his chief of staff, Andrew H. Card Jr., as Air Force One sat on the tarmac at Barksdale, and renewed his demand to return to Washington. Mr. Rove quoted him as saying, "The people of America will expect to see me and hear from me in Washington." But the president's words, Mr. Rove said, were "saltier."

Again Mr. Bush was rebuffed. By then the Pittsburgh crash was big news on the networks, and television anchors were starting to suggest, sometimes not very gently, that Mr. Bush was absent at a time of national crisis.
-------

My question: who exactly is in charge here? This makes it seem more than ever that dubya is being handled. He is taking, not giving orders. If he can't even command the secret service, how can we expect him to command our entire armed forces. The wrong president for the times is the only conclusion I can reach. This scares me. I hope I'm wrong.
 
171ivan
      ID: 26850137
      Thu, Sep 13, 10:23
biliruben - you are confusing thier job responsibilities, the Pres. job is to lead the us and "the free world" as popularly advertised.

while the secret service's job is to protect the President at all costs. this is not harrison ford we are talking about here. in matters of the Presidents safety, the sec. service holds trump, it may look odd at first but that is the breaks.

also how much confidince would running back to washington just in time to be killed have inspired?

and who's to say the president was not in danger?
just b/c the only weapons used were commercial airplanes, does not mean there were not 2ndary methods in place.
 
172patjams
      ID: 22858138
      Thu, Sep 13, 10:25
The Secret Service's number 1 priority is to insure the welfare of the President. It is within their power to keep the President out of harm's way if they believe there is a threat to his life. There were so many rumors circling that there were as many as 4 planes being unaccounted for that I believe they did the right thing. With the news that the plane that hit the Pentagon "circled the White House several times", I'd say that Bush being as far as possible from Washington was the right choice. Can you imagine if they had brought down the WTC AND killed the President? It's already catastrophic, but that would have sent the country down a path we need never travel.
 
173Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 28861216
      Thu, Sep 13, 10:39
Just started a new thread. This was taking too long to load up, and sometimes I would just get a blank page!

New thread
 
174steve houpt
      ID: 208461016
      Thu, Sep 13, 10:42
biliruben - you have stated from 20 Jan you have no confidence. Easy to look for reasons to keep that going. Heaven forbid Bush might do something that changed your mind.

Keep the other side going to keep me honest. :)
 
175biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 231045110
      Thu, Sep 13, 10:44
Just to be very clear, as I have said several times before, I agree that not going to Washington was the correct decision. Period.

The events surrounding that decision just make me a bit nervous with regards to how our president (and/or his handlers) act in a time of crisis.

- If there was evidence of a direct threat to AF1, as they claimed, what was it?

- Is this insinuation of lack of leadership going to cloud or influence the very real and imminently important decisions he will be making in the near future? I hope not.
 
176biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 231045110
      Thu, Sep 13, 10:45
Well before Jan 20th, Steve. ;)
 
177sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Thu, Sep 13, 10:47
lmao PD---I was one of those 'string' pullers you refer to. I was also on the end of the string being pulled. Unless and until you've been in combat, led and commanded other men in combat, shot and killed enemies of this nation while being shot at by them...PLEASE do NOT even pretend to tell me about the 'various levels' of war. I am all too painfully familiar with how many American lives were lost in Vietnam, because the 'political' level of war...had no friggin clue. Since you and I are going to disagree, and you feel as if you are on the moral high ground...let me simply say this and let it rest...the high ground you assume, is there for you to assume, because countless thousands like myself came before me on behalf of your right to assume said ground. Rather than debate military tactics with one who is intimately familiar with war, try thanking the men and women who have provided you the opportunity to sit on your throne in safety.
 
178sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Thu, Sep 13, 10:55
to all I say this: I've made my point clear. Right now I'm damned angry at BOTH the terrorist organizations and those insanely foolish people who honestly think negotiation/trial is the way to proceed...IF you get your way in the future, I for one am damn glad I'll be dead and gone before it happens. You however, I sincerely hope get to live until it does. Maybe then, once you're living under constant fear of execution for believing something you are no longer entitled to believe...just maybe, then you'll understand.

with that, I bid you adieu.
 
179steve houpt
      ID: 208461016
      Thu, Sep 13, 10:58
ALSO

- that they didn't just say that this is SOP, instead of seemingly making up a story about a direct threat to AF1.

Why is it seemingly making up a story? What intelligence do you have access to prove this is a made up story. First, I would not even answer the stupid questions from the press about why you went where you did.

Do you know the code word used to identify AF1? In fact it probably changes. I don't. A threat made against that code word was intercepted. The AG says they have credible evidence that AF1 was threatened. And he said in response to questions he will not answer any questions about anything about where they get their evidence or intelligence about anything.

This also from the NYT:

A threatening message received by the Secret Service was relayed to the agents with the president that "Air Force One is next." According to the high official, American code words were used showing a knowledge of procedures that made the threat credible.

Here is President's supposedly saltier comment. `I don't want some tinhorn terrorists keeping me out of Washington.'
 
180KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Thu, Sep 13, 11:06
I've posted a response to biliruben's "handled President" theory in the new continuation thread
 
181Madman
      ID: 68361122
      Sat, Sep 15, 01:07
I heard a source that claims the NYT article cited by biliruben was basically bunk, basically saying that those quotes by the President were taken baldly out of context. I can't find the original Times link, nor a refutation online (quickly), however. But the counter-story seems plausible -- namely that Bush was in a meeting, stated his desires, the Secret Service stated their concerns, and Bush changed his mind and decided to pursue "middle ground" path.

If this is true, then this would be yet another reason to not read the NYT when it comes to politics.