Self Editor

Forum: base
Page 11345
Subject: I know this will probably offend some...

Posted by: Mattinglyinthehall - [1832399] Thu, Sep 13, 16:41

...and to those who are hurt by this, I apologize to them now.

I remember being young and in St Bernard's Catholic school, where we were taught "religion" just like we were taught science and language arts. John Lennon's "Imagine" was probably 5 or 8 years old and was my mother's favorite song. Everyone knew it and all the words, as I'm sure I did to. I could never understand though, how so many people, who I assumed all must worship God with the same passion that I was taught to at that young age, could so embrace a song that wished for a world with no religion.

How could anyone not want religion?

This was an old post from another message board I often frequent. This particular forum's topic was something like, "The Problem With Discussing Faith-Based Initiatives", which was created by a member who was involved in a previous forum where members debated Bush's faith-based and community initiative shortly after the election had been settled. Member Marburg, perhaps (at least in my opinion) the most generally knowledgeable voice (certainly the most opinionated and extreme liberal thinker) on the thread responds to several other members discussing his alleged "hatred of religious people". I personally don't share many of his more extreme views, though he certainly has been something of an influence on my thoughts of late, and has definitely sparked a new perspective on certain opinions I hold, mainly on the subject of religion. I though about this post today and was glad I was able to find it.
Take from it what you will:

To clarify, I feel no more hatred for those stricken with religion than I do other unfortunates who may have contracted ebola. Both diseases in fact, are fascinating, unique and
ingenious adaptations to existing environment. Both alas, present serious hazards to human health, as well. While the so-called hemorrhagic fevers require bodily fluid of some type for
transmission, religion is perhaps unique among diseases in being transmissible through teaching. For this reason, children are at particularly high risk for contracting religion in areas of high incidence. Their developing immune systems are often swamped with the pathogenic concepts that mercilessly assault and eventually disable their reasoning centers in the neocortex. In this
respect, religion seems to be a unique form of IATROGENIC illness--that is, a disease which may be acquired by the suggestion of the disease. There is ample documentation of such iatrogenic illness (some types of depression as well as
afflictions like repetitive stress disorder occasionally fall into this category) though our understanding of these disorders remains fragmentary. It may well be that genetic predisposition makes certain individuals prime candidates for religious disorders, though social stigmas against serious research in this area leave us with more questions than answers.

The Crusades
The Inquisition
The Holocaust
The Jihad
Northern Ireland
Falun Gong

How many more that don't come to my mind right now?

How many more will there be?

Imagine no religion.

Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 28861216
Thu, Sep 13, 16:50

Religion's also done a world of good, too many to list. And too many religious people to list fully. Martin Luther King, Jr., Gandi, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Thomas Merton, and many others of religious conviction have done many, many good things in the name of religion.

But there are those who use religion to cover up and advance their own human weaknesses. It doesn't mean religion is the "baddy" here.

A tool used badly doesn't make the tool evil. Just its misapplication.

pd

Razor
Donor
ID: 305102622
Thu, Sep 13, 16:52

Gandhi.

biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 3502218
Thu, Sep 13, 16:55

Nationalism, taken to the extreme (as I have seen a large amount on these boards of late) is even more powerful, for good or for evil, than religion, imho.

Both can be used to stop people from using their own brains, which is always dangerous.

Doug
ID: 0737311
Thu, Sep 13, 17:02

From a secular point of view, there are two quick things I think should be pointed out:

1. Religion is also responsible for many positive events in the world... not just negative ones. Mother Theresa's work is perhaps the most famous example of the many good works carried out under the banner of religion. I think you could also strongly argue for sociological benefits that religion provides as well.

2. Religion is in no way unique in this regard. Think of the other things that have been the cause of both major good and major bad... without oil, there would have been no Gulf War and less environmental destruction... but then there would have been no combustion engine and our industrial progress would have been severely limited (I generally consider progress a good thing). Without a sense of national pride, WWII (and countless other wars) wouldn't have started in the first place (WWII by the Germans), but then it wouldn't have ended the same way either (WWII by the Allies). etc. etc. etc. Should we do away with all these other things as well?

Harkonnon
ID: 50230315
Thu, Sep 13, 17:10

Burundi and Ruanda

Red Khmeer

Former Yugoslavia

imho

as I'm offending People today enlarge

Religion or Religious feelings are not a bad thing, the critical factor sets in when Religions become too much of an organization, having with political ambitions and economical interests

Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 28861216
Thu, Sep 13, 17:21

Thanks for the correction, Razor. I thought there was an "h" in there somewhere, but it didn't look right!

I forgot to mention that there are those organizations, such as the Khmer Rouge or Chinese Communists, who operate on the notion of, at best, a non-religious basis (at worst, they work on eradicating religion). Nearly every one has been a force for evil in their sphere. So religion itself is almost certainly a positive influence, in practice as well as theory.

pd

patjams
ID: 22858138
Thu, Sep 13, 17:21

We Shall Overcome.

The_Beast
ID: 197252915
Thu, Sep 13, 17:24

Everyones entitled to their opinions, thats why this country was formed. Atheistic views get under my skin but you believe it, so be it. I'm sure being a Roman Catholic is as strange for you as it would be for me to be an atheist. There is one fact: everyone must believe in something. For some reason I refuse to believe that mankind is an accident and after we die that is the end. I hate to offend some people but government is more evil than religion and I dont hear many around wanting to abolish it. Revolution, Civil War, WWI, WWII, so on and so forth. Yes, I love my country, but if you want to blame religion for war look at the present instead of the past.

Razor
Donor
ID: 305102622
Thu, Sep 13, 17:25

Hey, us guys with d's followed by h's in our name gotta stick together.

KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 266182910
Thu, Sep 13, 17:35

Personally, I see it more as a song advocating everyone living as equals, not as an "anti-religious" song. Think about how many wars in the history of this world have been fought over religion, and I think that particular part of the song makes more sense.

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

curly
ID: 347231613
Thu, Sep 13, 18:25

no countries,no possesions,no hunger?...what about no sin.........sounds like heaven to me.

KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 266182910
Thu, Sep 13, 19:31

but curly, you forgot "no heaven" and "no hell below us".

Just imagine. Everyone with nothing to fight about, just living on Earth and appreciating everyone. It's a dreamland, for sure, which is why the song is titled "Imagine" in the first place. Just imagine.

The_Beast
ID: 197252915
Thu, Sep 13, 19:44

KKB no disrespect, but most wars started over religion is really started over greed. Territory and possesions will cause much more damage then religion ever will. Can someone please inform me how the Holocaust is religions fault? Its a disturbed German's fault, not religion.

miguel p
ID: 59444612
Thu, Sep 13, 20:11

I think the inclusion of the Holocaust in that list was meant to support the idea that many terrible things would not have happenned if there were no religion in the world (i.e., I don't think it was meant to suggest that there was a religious motive behind it). While religion has also been behind many good deeds, I think truly good people (such as Martin Luther King Jr, to use an example from above) choose to be good for its own sake, not because their religion inspires them to. I personally am not at all religious or spiritual, but that doesn't leave me without compulsion to be a good person, and I'd like to think the same is or would be true for most other people.

KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 266182910
Thu, Sep 13, 20:39

The_Beast, you're missing the point. Greed, religion, territory, possessions, etc. are all covered in the song. That's the point. Imagine a world where the were no, absolutely no, differences between people. What would it be like if we couldn't argue about religion, money, territory, possessions, or anything else? What would it be like? Imagine.

You're right that the Holocaust was a "disturbed German's" fault, but again, that "disturbed German" didn't like people of other religions. So would Hitler have been Hitler if there were no religion? If there were no territory to fight over? If there were nothing to fight over? Imagine.

Chuck
ID: 218261321
Thu, Sep 13, 21:35

One thing people should note (and I know this was mentioned above), but just because someone does something in the name of religion/God/Jesus/Allah, that does not mean that they are the real believers. Currently, I could go and act out criminally in the name of atheism. Does that (in and of itself) make atheism to blame for it? IN NO WAY! People who do things in the name of religion for the sake of personal gain, I would say, are not really doing things according to that religion.

"the critical factor sets in when Religions become too much of an organization, having with political ambitions and economical interests"

This is so true. Jesus, when he was on the earth, had a chance to become a political leader. The people of his day were ready to make him king. What did He do? He turned down the earthly throne and submitted himself to death on the cross for all people. His sacrifice gives each person a chance to be saved and to live in peace-- something we are all looking for right now.

Ender
ID: 13443221
Thu, Sep 13, 22:21

MITH, could you share the message forum (or fora) that you mentioned in the original post?

Wammie
ID: 437541618
Thu, Sep 13, 22:28

Lots of times wars are blamed on religion when really that is just a cover. The example give in Northern Ireland is an excellent example. Having lived in Ireland, and following the politics there, it is not a catholic vs protestant war. While each side are of these different religions, these religions are not against each other. But it is much easier to describe and to think you understand if you tell your self that it is 2 religions fighting each other.

The situation in Northern Ireland has many reasons for being, and it is far from being a holy war.

Doug
ID: 0737311
Fri, Sep 14, 02:08

I could wrong, but my understanding has always been that Hitler's hatred of the Jews was in the ethnic rather than religious sense... that it was towards people of Jewish heritage, but not necessarily those who practiced Judaism.

Rogue's Strikers
ID: 33732119
Fri, Sep 14, 02:14

I can't really dissagree with you MITH. I happen to think along those lines, although I recognize that it'll never happen.

I think that once people are able to do more and more of the things they want in life that they'll start believing more in themself and more in humanity than in any omnipotent super-being.

I can't tell you how annoying it is to watch a proffessional athelete achieve a great feat, only to see them turn around and 'thank god'. Cmon buddy, YOU tossed that great game! YOU hit those HR! Not some super-being! Sometimes you just wish people would give themselves a little more credit.

I have no problem with a religion that gives you something to believe in, just so long as it doesn't dominate one's life. All my friends growing up, Sunday morning usually went like this: "Aw man, I gotta go to church. I'll see you later." Why go to church if you don't want to? If you do great, but why force it on someone? Things like that really make me frown upon religion. On the flip side though, religious belief can help people do great things. For example, religion never hampered Lance Armstrong (that I know of anyway ;) but his belief helped him fight cancer.

Oh well, I guess with all things in life you take the bad with the good. If the good outweighs the bad its considered a great thing. If the bad outweighs the good its considered an evil thing. If they're about even its considered an issue.

Judge Mental
ID: 5688147
Fri, Sep 14, 07:26

I normally don't talk about religion...won't even go there, but I have to agree with MITH. So many people are turning to their faith in god in this trying time, and if it gives them comfort, that's great. Religion does serve a purpose, even if it does do a lot of damage along the way, IMO.

But I get so ticked off at these newscasters and other people on tv claiming that someone survived "by the grace of god" -- Give me a break! Is it god's grace that rained hellfire on all those innocents?

If there is a god, he's either impotent, malicious, or just doesn't give a crap.

And for those of you who think the power of prayer kept the fourth plane from hitting its target -- please reconcile this with the families of the passengers on that flight.

The hands that help do far more good than the lips that pray.

It seems to me that an event like this should do more to rattle one's faith in a supreme being than bolster it.

(Hovered ten minutes over the "Post Now!" button before actually doing so - sorry if I offend some of you, but what the hell! Oh wait, I don't believe in hell ;-0)

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Fri, Sep 14, 07:44

Thanks Rogue. I think the reason I posted this thread was to hear someone, anyone concur. I'd never say that my way of thinking on the issue is right or that mine are the opinions that everyone or anyone should hold. I just feel rather strongly that from the point of view of some people that are not so sure that any higher power in the traditional sense exists, religion has done more harm to this world and its people than good. It changes people's priorities and throughout history has too often consumed some to the point that they are more concerned with their supposed "salvation" than with the lives of thousands of innocents and entire civilizations. Understand my intent is not to suggest that everyone abandon their religion. Still, I apologize to the people I offend.
The_Beast, I'm not an athiest.... closer to agnostic I guess. I do subscribe to most of the ideas expressed in The Humanist Manifestos, though I would not go so far as to call myself a humanist. In any case, I was raised Roman Catholic like you. I forget what theological beliefs the "belief-o-matic" in the political forum (about as trustworthy as the "lovematic granpa" IMO), told me I subscribe to, I'd never heard of most of them. In any case, I have many conflicting opinions and ideas, as does anyone who has spent any real time contemplating their theology.
Ender; It's a forum at The New York Times On The Web called Abuzz. I think you'll have to register before you can see any of the discussions. Once in, if you can't get to the discussion from it's title, "The Problem With Trying To Discuss Faith Based Initiatives", you can access it from my profile there. My moniker there is "Goodoldwhatshisname" (given to me by one of the other members). Just go to "find abuzz member" and put in my moniker. Here's a direct link to the discussion:

Abuzz Thread

As some know I work in TV and now my day, like the whole week has been, is about to get ridiculous, especially with The President coming to town. Hopefully I'll be able to check ion later, though my internet access is limited.

Harkonnon
ID: 50230315
Fri, Sep 14, 07:48

doug

on Hitler
it's really hard to imagine what is really the reasoning of Hitler to single out the Jews, most people believe it was the easiest ethnic group to single out at the time (in Germany before World War II), economical reasoning may have been a factor as well (there were very rich and influential people among the Jews), but basically this was the start of an all out attack on everything that was not close to his ideas.
He proposed those Arian people as his ideal although no one really knows what an Arian really is (except maybe that an Arian should be blonde, tall and blue eyed but not necessarily of German origin). Basically he proposed to have an Ideal, but descriptions were so muddy that you can include or seperate almost at will.

Anyway the Holocaust fits here as it killed many people because they belong to an religious group.

Ender
ID: 52438315
Fri, Sep 14, 08:00

Judge Mental, I am glad you hit the Post Now button. The ability to have your own opinion, make your own decisions, and choose whether to believe or not are cornerstones of this country. God has also given us free will to accept or reject His forgiveness and love. I want to take some time to consider your post and respond, but I do not have that luxury until later this evening. I do want you to know that you have every right to be hurt, angry, and wonder how this could happen if God is who we believe him to be. I don't mean to imply that that right is mine to give or take, or that you need my or anyone else's approval. I simply mean that those rights are absolute.

KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 266182910
Fri, Sep 14, 08:01

Judge Mental, yes, God did allow all those events to happen. Why? I don't know. Ask God. If God does not allow those things to happen, then how does one die? Do we always die through "natural causes"? Then again, isn't that God allowing your body to deteriorate? You mentioned the families of those on the flight that crashed in PIT. Watch the news and you'll see that most of them (all that I have seen) believe in God and feel that God helped the people on that plane to overtake the plane and save the lives of those who were the target of the planes hijackers.

I heard an interview with a woman walking the street looking for her husband and the reporter was asking her questions and the woman said, "I just want to know that he's alright." and the reporter asked, "But what if you find out he didn't make it?" and the woman responded, "At least I'll know he's alright." How true that is when you believe in God. Dead or alive, you're "alright."

It is hard for those who don't believe in God to understand that He allows everything in the world to happen. How can a loving God allow destruction? I don't know, but maybe someday he'll tell me.

I once heard this from someone and thought it was something interesting to think about: If you don't believe in God, what have you gained? You believe that when you die, you're life, in all facets, is over and that you will be eaten by bugs and that's that. But what if there is a God and you didn't believe in him? Then that means you go to Hell and live a life of eternity there. However, if you believe in God and ask forgiveness of your sins, and there truly is a God, then when you die you will live an eternity in Heaven, presumably a pretty nice place. And if you believe and there is no God? Then your life is over, you don't know it, and your body is eaten by bugs. So your choices are:
Don't believe: Eaten by bugs or Eternity in Hell
Do believe: Eaten by bugs or Eternity in Heaven

Seems to me that believing offers the more favorable path for when you die. And as my friend pointed out, What have you lost by believing? Not much, if anything. What have you lost by not believing? Potentially a lot.

Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Fri, Sep 14, 08:12

I have said for years that Lennon's song would someday be used as an anthem for a 'New World Order' that would be among other things anti-religious. Another song that will get equal time on the play list in that day will be Seal's 'Crazy'.

It just may be that this incident will be the catalyst where everyone decides to do something 'Crazy'.

I am also on record on these boards predicting that someday parents who teach their children religion will be legally accused with child abuse and have their children taken from them. 'You want to inflict religion on your kids?' I know it sounded Crazy at the time I said it and it may sound Crazy to you now but the Marburg's of the world are coming for your kids just the same.

Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Fri, Sep 14, 08:18

BTW fully two million kids are stolen from their parents by the state every decade. The machinery is already in place and well oiled.

KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 266182910
Fri, Sep 14, 08:25

"fully two million kids are stolen from their parents by the state every decade"

How? Explanation please.

wildyams/katietx
ID: 247272010
Fri, Sep 14, 08:34

And now we have Jerry Fallwell engaging his mouth before his brain.

Just unreal! And to see the look on the people's faces in his church. Talk about sheep.

How in the world does he think gays, lesbians, etc. somehow contributed to this disaster? What an idiot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Judge Mental
ID: 5688147
Fri, Sep 14, 09:02

KKB, nice insurance policy, but I simply can't live my life a certain way "just in case", nor can I subscribe to a holy scripture that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I live a clean life and I do good unto others because I hope they'll do good unto me. Besides, it makes me feel good and I hope I make the world (my very small corner of it) a better place. I believe in punishment on this earth for "sins" committed here. What goes around (usually) comes around. If your god is gonna fry me in some mythical hell for all eternity just because I exercised the free will he supposedly gave me, even though I followed just about all of his rules anyway, then your god is a real unforgiving a-hole and I wouldn't want to follow him anyway.

This is not the time or place to get into a big discussion about biblical errancy or the nasty stuff your loving god has done to his creations, but he doesn't just ALLOW stuff to happen as you said. According to the bible, he MKAES it happen (witness the great flood and all the innocents drowned in it -- what had the children done to deserve that?). And if he doesn't intervene with something like this, he must not care.

All part of his plan? What kind of friggin' plan are we talking about here? Really, take some personal responsibility rather than accepting everything as "fate".

Oh yeah, and Jerry Falwell is a great example of the danger of not thinking for yourself.

Again, I feel like this is not the most appropriate time for this discussion, I don't want to rattle anyone's emotions right now, but a tragedy of this magnitude does beg the question of god's existence, no matter which side of the debate you fall on. We are all searching for answers among the unfathomable horrors we've seen. And it's only going to get worse as it sinks in more.

Toral
Sustainer
ID: 447461620
Fri, Sep 14, 09:02

I was off the boards for a while and was interested in seeing a thread centreing on the song "Imagine". I was thinking of starting one myself sometime on the Politics Board but that it might be a bit provocative.

I have always thought this to be one of the silliest songs of all time and one of the most overrated. It once topped a list of all-time bad songs I made, easily beating out Paul Anka's Havin' My Baby.

I'll skip the religion part mostly since either you believe or you don't, and there's no reason atheists shouldn't write songs. In addition, Theodicy (the attempt to explain the co-existence of evil with an omnipotent, good God) is one of the most difficult area of religious belief, for believers. But look at what Paul Lennon saw as the alternative: Imagine all the people living for today. Living for the today is the default condition for people, man as pure animal. Realizing that there is something more important than "livin' for today" is a necessary part of humans being something higher than animals -- and that applies whether you believe in religion or not.

The idea that "having no possessions" would lead to a happy world community with ho greed or hunger is wrongheaded enough to need little further comment. I believe it has often been noted that none of the Beatles themselves chose the "havin' no possessions" option as a way of life.

And then there is "Imagine there's no countries." I believe that social institutions, social capital, including ones directly ties to the existence of countries, are one of the main things that contribute to the ability to enjoy a better form of life. Yes, they can obviously lead to great destruction, as we have seen; but without them there would be many fewer great and worthwhile things to have and enjoy in the first place.

To big fans of Mr Lennon: Peace, and may he Rest In peace.

Toral

Toral
Sustainer
ID: 447461620
Fri, Sep 14, 09:04

Doh. John Lennon. Sorry

Toral

Gangman
Leader
ID: 10434285
Fri, Sep 14, 09:28

MITH.... step back for a moment and look at
the civilized world. Without religion, you are
right, it would all be different. For one thing we
wouldn't be communicating like this right now.
It was monks and priests that spread much
language, books, written words from continent
to continent, helping form the "modern world'.

Where do you figure that right and wrong
came from? This may irk you, but the Bible is
the basis for virtually all of our laws. Why is
murder and stealing wrong? If it's just
evolution, then there should only be survival of
the fittest. Period.

What evolutionary process gave us love?
There is no evolutionary reason for us to have
emotion! No other creatures possess it and
all it does is weaken us....but it is what makes
us "human". My dogs are not shocked or
saddened by any of this.

A world without great Cathedrals, The Taj
Mahal, The Vatican, The Sistine Chapel,
almost all of the great masterworks through
the ages that define our humanity have been
funded by religion. Not to mention the
INSPIRATION (another useless biological
trait).

Make no mistake, PEOPLE, often in the name
of religion, screw up all the time. But for every
negative incident, the AUTHENTIC Christians,
Muslims, Buddhists et al have helped
countless billions of people through the ages.

MITH, I am no fanatic. I only became a
Christian 3 years ago. I also thought like you. It
is a very shallow and far easier road to not
believe, than to believe. Put your faith in your
fellow man as opposed to God and see how
long we make it, and what kind of world we
live in.

My church (Methodist) sent VOLUNTEER
groups to the Balkans, South America, Africa,
and Mexico this year to help build latrines and
housing. Withour fanfare, no publicity, no
coercion, REGULAR PEOPLE just moved by
the Holy Spirit to do what is called for in our
Bible. This is repeated endlessly every year all
over the world, and has been for years. What
organized atheist group reaches out time and
again to help your fellow man?

In fact, why should any of us help the people in
the ruins....if there is no hope. Just sweep it
up, and dispose of them as so much rubble.
Then we'd be just like the animals .... live to
procreate and die...so what?

Along with the ability to love, reason, create,
and do good, He also allowed us to have free
will. Humans have abused the privilage and
continue to do so. HUMANS include religious
fanatics.

I love John Lennon, and that song..... but I do
not worship him. You want to read real depth
about peace, and how to act? Read the
teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. If ALL
people lived according to the Word in the new
testament (and this includes religious zealots
of all ilks, Christians included), then we would
truly live in peace. I gurantee it!

MITH...I know where you are coming from. I
want to tell you that I respect you and wish you
all the best.

Sandlot
Donor
ID: 59832108
Fri, Sep 14, 09:30

does anyone have a link to the transcript of Falwell's remarks? I'd like to have a look at them. Thanks

Baldwin - crazy? maybe. But far-fetched? no way. I can see that future too. Just let the CPS get involved. CPS I think for the most part does a good job in getting abused kids out of some horrific situations, but I do believe that things are invented or blown out of proportion in order to get children put into the care of the state or people who can teach them what is 'right' (in the world's eyes). Throw into the mix the ACLU, who never ever let a little thing like the facts get in the way of going the extra mile to make sure things Christian don't take a foothold in society.

Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Fri, Sep 14, 09:33

KKB

The stats are here which can be found in this rotoguru discussion thread.

In 1998, states reported to NCCAN that CPS workers removed an estimated 238,000 children [and the rate of these state thefts is increasing at a dramatic rate]-B.

KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 266182910
Fri, Sep 14, 09:39

Judge Mental, you just don't understand God, therefore you have the questions you have. There's no way for me to explain it to you, you have to figure it out for yourself I guess.

A few points: By allowing things to happen as the ultimate judge, then yes, God does essentially make things happen.

Your assumption that God taking innocent lives is based on the assumption that a life here on Earth is better than a life in Heaven. Many would argue that point with you.

You also assume that "God's Rules" are that you simply live a good life and you will go to heaven. This is not true. You have to be saved and ask forgiveness of your sins from God. We, as humans, are not the final judge so what you say or do to us really doesn't mean much. I can pretend to be nice and people here on Earth will think I'm nice, but God would know differenly (if I were pretending). I was once asked over and over and over again by a clergy member how I knew I was going to Heaven and I would respond much in the same way you did: "Because I'm a good person and I treat people how I want to be treated." Finally, after about the 10th time (being asked once a week) I realized that the only way I was going to Heaven was to love and accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and to ask Him to forgive me of my sins. None of the other stuff matters. In your view, think of it like asking a stranger on the street to forgive you of a crime. That doesn't matter. It only matters when you ask the judge who is prosecuting you for forgiveness. Much the same thing.

And personally, I don't accept anything as "fate", but I do accept that God allows things (makes things) happen for reasons beyond my comprehension. Why must I comprehend everything? I don't think anyone comprehends everything. Thus, I leave those things that I cannot comprehend in the hands of God.

And make sure you understand one thing. Horrors like this only make those who don't believe in God question his existence more. Those who truly believe will always believe and will actually embrace God more in times like this.

Again, don't assume that a life here is better than a life in Heaven and it doesn't seem so bad to get taken away in a great flood or in the attacks of Tuesday. I'm not saying that I wish for death, but I will be forced to accept it when it comes and I will know that if it comes for my loved ones first that they will truly be in a better place and I will be there with them soon enough. Like the woman said, "At least I'll know he's alright."

Judge Mental
ID: 5688147
Fri, Sep 14, 09:39

Gangman,

MITH can speak for himself, but please don't presume that it's "easier" to not believe, espcially when you grew up indoctinated with religion and when you finally figured it out for yourself, it's as if the rug has been pulled out from under you.

I wish I could believe in an afterlife, I wish I could believe we're all part of some grand scheme, and I wish I could believe that there was life after death. You at least have that comfort.

And I can remember how difficult it was to think that some big dude up there on a cloud was watching my every move ( he was even there when I sneeked a peek at my uncle's girly magazines), the guilt factor is tremendous, but don't presume that being an atheist is a cop out or easy in any way. It was (and still is) a painful road for me, and for the first time, I'm a member of a derided minority.

I'm sure you enjoyed it when Jessie Ventura called religion an crutch for weak-minded poeople.

No easy answers here.

Judge Mental
ID: 5688147
Fri, Sep 14, 09:50

Falwell's remarks from CNN. He really should learn when to shut his mouth:

On the broadcast of the Christian television program "The 700 Club," Falwell made the following statement:

"I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen.'"

Judge Mental
ID: 5688147
Fri, Sep 14, 09:54

Sorry, don't know how to post a link, will learn someday. Hopefully his remarks are not taken out of context here. It's on the CNN website. Then again, I can't imagine a context in which these remarks would make any sense.

The_Mentors
ID: 9432248
Fri, Sep 14, 09:57

The fact that these people are willing to kill themselves and trully believe they will live a better life AFTER death with GOD is scary.

Over the past 100 years religion has become less and less prominant in or society and in the decades to come the trend will continue. I believe for the benifit of us all.

The_Mentors
ID: 9432248
Fri, Sep 14, 09:58

If my Mom knew I said that she would murder me.

Jerry Fartwell is an A$$!!!!

KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 266182910
Fri, Sep 14, 10:01

Baldwin, those numbers don't appear to include "return rates" where a child is taken from a home during investigation, then returned upon the claims being "Unsubstantiated".

The_Mentors
ID: 9432248
Fri, Sep 14, 10:02

KKB:
"don't assume that a life here is better than a life in Heaven "

Your ideal sound odly familiar to those of the terrorist..

Judge Mental
ID: 5688147
Fri, Sep 14, 10:04

KKB,

No, YOU just don't understand religion, that's why you have the belief that you have. Someday, if you keep reading the bible, you will figure it out for yourself. ;-) You will come to the realization on your own that someone just made all this up to keep the poor people and women in line and the fat, rich, church dudes in power. ;-)

Heavy dose of sarcasm here, but actually, I don't understand god, and neither do you, but you have accepted as true something that cannot be known. That's true faith. Yours is the safer bet, just in case he does exist. Guess I'll have to live with that. (All the fun people will be in hell with me.) ;-)

KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 266182910
Fri, Sep 14, 10:04

BTW, I also don't like Falwell. He does more to steer people away from religion than a thousand people could do to steer people towards religion.

KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 266182910
Fri, Sep 14, 10:13

Judge Mental, the Bible is one of the oldest and most distributed books in the world. If it were false, it would have been shown as false through the many times where people go off on a mission to prove it false and then end up turning to God. It happens all the time. And how do we know it's false? Were you there? I sure wasn't. So if it can't be guaranteed to be false, then it could be true (also not guaranteed).

And you're right, I don't understand God. Nobody truly understands everything about God. God is mysterious, which is part of what makes Him who he is.

FWIW, I have a lot of fun also and I've also done a lot of sinning (shudder!), but nobody besides God is perfect and God understands that. The difference is that I ask, and receive, forgiveness when I sin, that's all. And I try as best as I can to not sin, but we all mess up and we always will. That's what makes us humans and not Gods.

Have you ever seen the move "The Santa Clause" with Tim Allen? There's a line towards the middle that is great. It goes something like this: "Well, just because you've never seen a million dollars doesn't mean it doesn't exist." I've never seen a lot of things in my life, but it doesn't mean they don't exist. Faith? Yes. The belief that things can exist without me having to see it? Most definitely.

Gangman
Leader
ID: 448401310
Fri, Sep 14, 10:17

Falwell is also a human and a fanatic. Just
because a guy is a preacher, doesn't make
him right. He does not in any way speak for
me.

Jesus had no preachers or organized
religious leaders among his disciples. He
calls on us each to be a reflection of Him, and
guys like Falwell need to go back and read the
New Testament, and not just passages out of
context to use for their own ends. IMHO

KKB - Excellent post.

Judge Mental (cooly ironic nickname I might
add), I did not mean to deride anyone. Sorry if
you took it that way.

I don't understand the Jesse Ventura
reference though....do you agree with him? Or
were you pointing out an irony. Why do you
insinuate that I would enjoy that comment or
were you being sarcastic.

Jesse Ventura....now there's a guy to revere.

Sandlot
Donor
ID: 59832108
Fri, Sep 14, 10:20

a very strong belief of mine - it isn't about religion, it's about relationship. For me, that is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Religion is humanity's attempt to mold God, rather than God molding them. I can go to a building called a church, listen & nod my head, say my amens, but does that make me a Christian or saved? Not in my opinion. I have to take what I've heard and make a personal decision about what I'm going to do with the knowledge I've gained. My feeling is that being a Christian isn't a once-a-week thing, but a 24-7 thing. Applying biblical truths to every aspect of my life.

Judge Mental, I think it is easier not to believe. Then I can go down life's road, making the choices that make me feel good. As a Christian, I am faced with situations every day that force me to make a choice on whether to follow my heart (Holy Spirit) or follow my head (sinful desire). The easy way would be to go the route of the head. Hey, sin is fun right? But I know that ultimately, that wrong choice will bear painful fruit. Too stinkin' often I choose to follow the head, and regret it deeply later. I have often shared with friends that deciding to follow Christ has brought more pain than I ever thought I'd face. I've also experienced the most intense joy I've ever fealt. I wouldn't trade a single moment of it. I would never go back to my old life.

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Fri, Sep 14, 10:22

Judge,
Thanks. Very well said and for the most part we are in agreement in our theology. I'm not an athiest, just someone who admits that I'm not convinced by anyone's argument, that god exist or that god does not.
Gangman,
Thanks for addressing me with respect. Please accept what I'm about to say with the same. I have no intention to challenge you, just to offer perspective into why I believe I might understand you better than you do I. As I said above, I was raised a devout Christian. Roman Catholic. According to those who taught my former faith to me, Sister Helen, Sister Saint Monica, Father Driesen, Monsignor Graham and others at St. Bernard's church in Levittown, New York, Protestants will not be saved, even though they accept Jesus as their messiah and savior. They have not received the Holy Sacraments of Baptism, The Eucharist, Reconcilliation and Confirmation from a priest who has received the Sacrament of Holy Orders by a Roman Catholic Bishop. According to them (please understand, not me), you are not an "authentic" christian. I don't claim to know what an authentic Christian is.
I don't claim to know anything for sure. In fact, that I am certain that I know nothing is the basis of my entire theological standing. All I do know for sure is that a Christian who claims that his denomination practices the or one of the authentic forms of Christianity will be challenged by others who who's beliefs conflict.

How do they really know? How do you really know? How does anyone?

And again, please, I'm not trying to convert anyone to anything. My beliefs and opinions are mine and don't need to be anyone else's. If some of you feel I will burn for my opinion, so be it.

F Gump
ID: 53837117
Fri, Sep 14, 10:32

Re Falwell, he is prone to opening his mouth without his brain fully engaged at times! *LOL*

However, he said this: "Falwell told CNN: "I would never blame any human being except the terrorists, and if I left that impression with gays or lesbians or anyone else, I apologize."

The full story is here: Falwell: a bit of the story, explanation, and apology

Gangman
Leader
ID: 448401310
Fri, Sep 14, 10:37

MITH .... this is a great discussion, and I only
have answers for myself, and even then I'm
not sure about anything.

To me, authentic really means trying to be like
Jesus. WWJD seems trite, but it really all gets
down to that.

As a 40 year non-Christian, I am still filled with
doubt. I am truly surprised that this has not
shaken my faith but strengthened it. But that
doesn't mean that my heart doesn't phsically
ache with doubt, uncertainty and questions.

But I CHOOSE to believe. And once I have
done that, I will gladly accept all of God's
blessings.

BTW - I feel so sorry for all of those who have
been abused by Organized Religion.

The_Mentors
ID: 9432248
Fri, Sep 14, 10:40

"Onward Christian soldiers marching as to war. With the cross of Jesus. Going on before."

Think that's how it went.

MITH; Your arguments have merit but you have no chance. I just feel sorry for that poor guy in the Amazon who doesnt know any better and worships a tree. What happens to him?

Judge Mental
ID: 5688147
Fri, Sep 14, 10:48

KKB,

Sin. Repent. Sin. Repent. Repeat.
Sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me. And just because something is old and widely distributed doesn't make it right. I can provide you with many stories of biblical scholars who try to prove the bible's accuracy but can't do it and have as a result lost their faith.

Gangman,

I wouldn't presume to paint all christians with the Falwell brush, but it is frightening that he is so outspoken, visible, and powerful and that more christians do not speak out against him. MITH makes great points about other religions. How do you know yours is the right one? There are thousands of other religious factions who believe just as strongly in their version of the bible and think that YOU are going to hell.

The Jesse Ventura comment was sarcasm (I do think he's "out there" and don't revere him), just trying to point out that it's no fun to be told your beliefs are the result of a weak mind. "You just don't understand" or "it's so much easier to not believe". Ventura thinks the opposite.

Sandlot,

Glad to hear a christian finally admit he doesn't think with his head. ;-)

I'd say we're both guilty of generalizing, as christianity is an easy copout for those who don't take it seriously (I'll just go to confession and say a few extra Hail Whomevers) and atheism could also be as simple as "doing what feels good" if you don't have any concern for your fellow human beings or the repercussions of your actions.

Morals do exist outside of the bible.

As for my name, it is ironic in a discussion about religion as fundamentalists such as Falwell are the epitome of judgemental (despite that whole mote in your eye thing), but the name is more reflection of my occupation and sanity.

F Gump
ID: 53837117
Fri, Sep 14, 10:51

THE MENTORS

The Bible says that God "is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." I trust God, that he will find the right way to reveal the truth about Himself to those who are open to Him and seek Him, regardless of where they live. The God I know and see revealed to me in the Bible has the power to accomplish that, and the love to care that the truth is conveyed to those who are sincerely seeking it. God knows the heart.

Gangman
Leader
ID: 448401310
Fri, Sep 14, 10:56

Judge - I don't know mine is right. It is a
personal choice.

I apoligize for the "easier" remark. I did not
meant to intimate that you (or anyone else) are
weak minded. Sorry.

Judge Mental
ID: 5688147
Fri, Sep 14, 11:01

Gangman,

No big deal. I wasn't particularly offended.

But your last response begs the question:

If you have chosen to be a christian, was it an informed choice? I mean, have you studied other religions or atheist/agnostic viewpoints? I am sure you have, but I'm curious to know why christianity and not Taoism?

saber34
ID: 41338116
Fri, Sep 14, 11:03

People with their religion are still people. We all suffer from the "human condition" to blame everything on religion and gods themselves is very shallow. It's each of our own insecurities that start these wars. Our search for power...
Many of these are started by one group tryin to force their beliefs on others. This is not the way to convert others into following. Our freedom of choice was given by God, we failed him and have lost him. His love provides another chance. It is whether or not we accept that offer that truly makes us religious . I know plenty of people who claim to be religious, but its only for personal gain, allowing everyone to show are wonderful they are yet outside of the church doors their the most evil people known. Remember Satan came straight from heaven!!!

The_Mentors
ID: 9432248
Fri, Sep 14, 11:07

Religion teaches our youth the difference between right and wrong and instills a sense of morals. For that it is good.
It also brainwashes people into believing that after they die they will live a 'better life' in heaven with GOD.
The fanatic Muslims have taken this belief a step further and this and THIS ALONE has resulted in maniacs flying planes into building without repercussion because they believe in GOD!

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Fri, Sep 14, 11:07

Gump and Saber
It is just one tragedy that those who initiated and continued The Crusades (onward Christian soldiers indeed!) and The Spanish Inquisition and other aggressive Christian conversion movements did not interpret 'god's word' and the Bible as you do, and I suppose, as it was intended.

They were so sure they were doing god's work. They were certain their holy war was god's will. They followed the same Bible you do. They were as certain as anyone is that they were "authentic". Generations conducted their murder and torture in god's name because they were raised from a young age to do so. They knew no better.

Were they saved?

Judge Mental
ID: 5688147
Fri, Sep 14, 11:15

And, religion makes for great fairy tale stories for the little 'uns:

"As he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him: Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them"

2Kings 2:23-24

I've never made fun of baldness since.

Gangman
Leader
ID: 448401310
Fri, Sep 14, 11:17

Judge - It sort of chose me.

I've read eastern philosophies and such, and
they have never touched my heart.

To non believers, the following will make no
sense: I was moved by the holy spirit and my
heart was opened to Jesus Christ.

I have since begun my studies (of the Bible)
and feel that my head is coming around as
well.

But even after you "get it", it is still a personal,
human choice as to whether to heed the call.

Judge Mental
ID: 5688147
Fri, Sep 14, 11:28

Gangman,

May I ask how you were "touched"? I mean, was it a revelation, a certain event in your life, or a very gradual process?

If its too personal and you don't want to share, I understand. But you're right, it makes no sense to me.

Gangman
Leader
ID: 448401310
Fri, Sep 14, 11:32

Too personal for typing effectively.

All of the above might be the answer to your
question.

Billy Graham is preaching right now......

F Gump
ID: 53837117
Fri, Sep 14, 11:33

MITH

I cannot make the presumption that the individual persons who did the acts that you describe "were so sure they were doing God's work" (as you put it), though I can't say otherwise either. There are many who USE the name of God to "validate" their own personal agendas. Even if they are/were "religious leaders", that does not mean they truly have a heart for God in any way. Jesus decried the religious leaders of HIS day, because they promoted "religion" but their heart was self-focused.

Although they were done "in the name of The Church", the Crusades and the Inquisition were actually political, not religious events. "Religion" or "Christianity" was used as an EXCUSE to promote a political agenda. The Roman Catholic Church in those times was a powerful POLITICAL force, rather than a spiritual one, in many many ways.

Nevertheless, I am sure there have been instances in the past when religion itself DID do things that were evil or wrong, because "religion" itself is merely a human contrivance to organize believers into a group - and any group consisting of humans can go astray, do wrong, etc etc. "Religious" groups are no exception.

Several things that I keep in mind when asked questions like this:
1) Jesus said that one day, there will be revealed that people who supposedly acted in his name NEVER KNEW HIM. (Matthew 7:21-23)
2) Jesus said that one way to get a CLUE as to who genuinely has a heart for God (particularly among the religious leaders!) is to watch actions not words: by their fruits you will know them, he said.(Matt 7:15-20)
3) Ultimately, I do not have to KNOW whether those people in the past were "saved" or not. Only God knows the heart. He will be the one to determine.

Gangman
Leader
ID: 448401310
Fri, Sep 14, 11:43

Next season we'll have to have a new division:

Battle of the Ideologies!

Judge Mental
ID: 5688147
Fri, Sep 14, 11:46

What is the best enticement you could think of to get someone to do your bidding?

Promise them everlasting life (complete with virgin women at you beck and call in some Islamic fundamentalist circles -- gets them plenty of young male recruits).

What is the best deterrent you could think of to prevent someone from doing what you don't want them to do?

Promise them everlasting torment.

Without religion, I doubt these terrorist groups could continue to recruit so many willing to die (purposeful, unavoidable death as opposed to fighting for your life in a ground war) for a "political cause". I will be astounded if the evidence does not reveal these were devoutly religious fundamentalist sickos. (Copy of the Koran found in the rental car at Logan airport).

silver-n-black
ID: 297382911
Fri, Sep 14, 11:50

I started following these boards as a football fan a couple weeks ago, and haven't been able to stop since this weeks tragedy. I decided not to interject much because I'm not a regular part of your community (yet). I just want to say God Bless America for giving us the right to each have our own beliefs, and the freedom of speech to argue them in a forum such as this.

Judge Mental
ID: 5688147
Fri, Sep 14, 11:53

LOL, Gangman.

Pretty cool that we are all able to get along regardless of religios belief (or non-belief, as the case may be). I never would've been able to guess which passionate belief would belong to which gurupie on this board.

BTW, I am a constant lurker, but rare poster (I made up for that today) so I do feel like I know all the gurupie regulars fairly well.

Maybe Guru could create a religion forum?

biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 3502218
Fri, Sep 14, 11:55

We already have a politics forum - do you want to commit BOTH social faux pas! The boards would explode! ;)

Actually, I wouldn't mind that. I have tired of religious discussions, so I would now which forum to avoid. ;)

F Gump
ID: 53837117
Fri, Sep 14, 11:58

Judge Mental

Yes, religion can be misused. No doubt about it. Some of the most monstrous pseudo-religious acts in history are those motivated by the "dispensing of heavenly favors" as an enticement. The Bible itself does NOT promote any sort of activity like that: it says "heavenly favor" is always a gift. So anyone who plays the "do this to gain God's approval" game is, as I understand the Bible, "using religion" as you outline.

However, the misuse of a legitimate thing does not invalidate its worth. Evil can invade any portion of our society, even religions; indeed in my opinion, false "religion" (and so-called religious activity, as you describe) is one tool that Satan uses to bring evil into the world, in the guise of good.

Judge Mental
ID: 5688147
Fri, Sep 14, 12:14

Whassamatter Bili, your head hurt from banging it into that wall?

Yeah, such "debates" don't tend to go anywhere among those who have thought a lot about their beliefs and are basically entrenched, although both will claim "open minds". I'll sum it up for everyone:

Christian: God exists.

Atheist: No he doesn't.

X: Does too.

A: Does not. How do you know?

X: Just do. Bible says so. I have Faith. How do you know he doesn't?

A: I don't. Science seems to disprove it.

X: God created science.

A: Did not.

X: Did too.

A: Explain ______.

X: Goddidit.

A: Explain _______.

X: Goddidit.

A: Explain the Red Sox.

X: Sorry, you're on your own on that one, not even God would take responsibility.

A: Well, I guess we're not going to change each other's minds, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

X: I guess so. God bless America.

A: (Smiles) grrrrrr.

Judge Mental
ID: 5688147
Fri, Sep 14, 12:20

Forrest,

The only problem I have with your post is that the bible appears -- OK, to hell with appearances -- it DOES advocate things like slavery, violence, sexism, homophobia, overpopulation, and an unhealthy sex life (do these two go together?) It is quite explicit on those subjects for those who have actually read it. Is it really being misused? Or are you misusing it because many parts do not apply or just plain wouldn't fly in today's world? Why is the church always revising its stance on different things? If these parts don't apply, then did god really write it?

That is why I reject the whole thing and am banging my head against the wall again. ;-)

biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 3502218
Fri, Sep 14, 12:23

LOL, JM!

Pilewort
Donor
ID: 347142619
Fri, Sep 14, 12:32

great thread.

ChicagoTRS: I have some pills that are sure to clear up any IATROGENIC you might contract. I hear it's a bitch until the itching subsides.

But I see your point.

America may be crying out for Buddism--as I see it, a sort of non-religion religion where the human is god--and the John Lennon approach, the inner-peace self.

The U.S. just might be in the need of a relgious sex-change.

(Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating anything, yet I don't look suspiciouly at anyone who doesn't believe in a supreme being. I have a little girl and we are active in a liberal Christian chuch, and she enjoys reading of Christian archiology.)

However, due to American's ethnic and political roots, Buddism just ain't gonna happen on a widespread basis in our lifetimes. Thank you very much, Rome.

My advice to you, ChicagoTRS, is don't start arguing religion in your barber shop today, or you'll likely be construed as odd. Buddism is not Christianity, and Americans to a certain degree have been indoctrinated to associate God with country. And if you are talking John Lennon religion today, your barber will give you a bad haircut.

Many in this thread would probably agree that western Christianity has as much blood on its hands as the next religion; re your citing of the Crusades.

Judging by what I'm hearing at work (I work in a sheriff's department, so it's pretty predictable) and on talk radio, America hasn't a clue how the WTC disaster fits into the grand scheme. I guess, neither do I. But for America in general to assume an appearance of total ignorance as to why this would happen baffles me even more. It shows a total lack of understanding about how a third of the world's population feels about US.

Somebody was arguing whether the Muslum world hated the US because we are aligned with the Jews, or whether the Islam world hated the Jews because they were aligned with the US. The concensus was they hated Isreal because they were aligned with the US.

And that might not be too far from the truth. No use arguing over current or historic religious development. We've been delt a hand in history, and there's little value ignoring the U.S. is a cat and Islamic zealots resent us for our money, power, exploitation and the fact their religion doesn't have as much historical evidence as Christianity.

America is still living in a Geneva Convention world, and now we're realizing those wars are over.

Surely, the WTC disaster will go down in the annual of terrorism sheer genius. So simple, yet so destructive. Seriously, with plastic knives strapped to to the legs or four NFL linemen, you could overpower any flight crew. Add a pilot, and presto.

Unless they put air marshalls back on the planes and start doing pat-downs, this same incident could reoccur.

I don't know where I'm going with this, other to possibly conclude the U.S. will continue to be subject to terrorism rather than conventional warfare, for at least as long as it chooses to not use warfare against those who choose terrorism. And we're going to have a big problem deciding what our solution should be so long as there is a philosophic difference between our spiritual yearning as a country (i.e. John Lennon's world), and our religious history.

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Fri, Sep 14, 12:54

Pilewort;
I believe you mean to address me and not ChicagoTRS. If so, I have not argued religion. I have no intention to do so. Also, the consensus at you job is wrong. Muslims and Jews were fighting over their shared holy land long before the US got involved, though I think that point is moot now anyhow.

KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 266182910
Fri, Sep 14, 13:06

JM (Beginning of post 53) You're right! It is a pretty sweet deal. How can you pass it up? ;)

ChicagoTRS
Sustainer
ID: 4324316
Fri, Sep 14, 13:09

Pilewort...how did I get in this thread? I think you may be referring to someone else. I would appreciate it if you dlete your post and repost it with the person you are actually referring to.

Believe me I am not in here arguing religion because it is not a subject that I have a ton of knowledge about and I also know it is normally an argument you will never win or basically people have their own views and you are not likely to change them.

ChicagoTRS
Sustainer
ID: 44753816
Fri, Sep 14, 13:26

BTW..Pilwort...I do think we have a pretty good idea why we are being attacked and are hated. It is our alignment with Israel...the war between these people literally goes back 1000s of years and many many generations it has nothing to do with us until recently when we have supported Israel. That is a pretty well known fact.

The_Mentors
ID: 9432248
Fri, Sep 14, 13:28

Once again I agree.

The_Mentors
ID: 9432248
Fri, Sep 14, 13:30

Cant do anything about it though can we?

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Fri, Sep 14, 13:58

Remains to be seen Mentors. If we can, I'm quite sure it'll be slow, painful goings.
The saddest thing about this is that inevitably, regardless of how this is handled, the violence and death has just begun.

The_Mentors
ID: 9432248
Fri, Sep 14, 14:00

Lets just keep it off our soil.

The_Mentors
ID: 9432248
Fri, Sep 14, 14:11

This is going to last forever. Or until the Middle East is able stabilize itself and remedy, among other things, its social and economic problems. In other words we are going to need ground troops and this is going to last forver.

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Fri, Sep 14, 14:16

re post 82.
I don't know that I'd count on that as a possibility.

The_Mentors
ID: 9432248
Fri, Sep 14, 14:26

Hey MITH, Where is everybody?
the leader of the Talibad spoke.
"It was very much a speech about rallying in the face of adversity. He started by saying that he was addressing the speech not only to Afghans but to all Muslims."

David vs Goliath type speach.

Dec
ID: 48541115
Fri, Sep 14, 14:29

Problems between Jews and Arabs are quite new, ie. creation of the State of Israel (after WWII). BTW, during history, Jews in northern Africa/Middle East were probably the less persecuted/more integrated if you compare with their situation in Europe/America. This half-century non-sense is beyond me, Can you just imagine how powerful could be Middle East without these wars. These people can really do business...

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Fri, Sep 14, 14:32

I don't think it has as much to do with inherent business skill than the resources available. And Jerusalem was a contested land long before WWII.

The_Mentors
ID: 9432248
Fri, Sep 14, 14:33

Mob of 300 in Chicago attacked muslims.

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Fri, Sep 14, 14:39

re post 88, more of that has been reported. Biliruben posted this earlier today in the "Today's News and Views 9/13" thread:

"In Denton, Tex., the police are investigating a firebomb attack that damaged the Islamic Society of Denton's mosque early yesterday. In suburban Cleveland, Sukhwant Singh, a Sikh priest who lives at the Guru Gobind Sikh temple, awakened early Wednesday to find bottles filled with gasoline hurled in the temple's windows and flames pouring out. No arrests have been made.

In Louisiana, schools in Jefferson Parish were closed on Wednesday after officials reported that students of Middle Eastern origin were being taunted and harassed.

On Long Island, a market in Smithtown owned by a native of Pakistan was the target of what the police considered a probable arson attack Wednesday morning. In Ronkonkoma, a man was arrested on suspicion of waving a pellet gun and shouting obscenities at a South Asian gas station worker. And in South Huntington on Wednesday night, a man was arrested after the police said he tried to run down a Pakistani woman. The police said he screamed that he was "doing this for my country."

Early Wednesday in Manhattan, a Sikh man said he was pounced on by three white men yelling "terrorist" at Broadway and 52nd Street. Later in the morning, three Sikh men waiting at Grand Central Terminal for a Connecticut-bound train were stopped and had their bags searched by the police.

On Wednesday night, more than 100 people, including many teenagers, held a march near a mosque in Bridgeview, Ill., near Chicago. Some waved American flags and shouted, "U.S.A.!"

Shame.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/14/national/14ISLA.html
..."

ChicagoTRS
Sustainer
ID: 4324316
Fri, Sep 14, 14:49

Dec...problems between Islam and the rest of the world go back to the 7th or 8th century...hardly quite new?

Here is a good web site to read some of the history and current state of affairs. This article was written in July of this year...quite prophetic and warned that we would soon be drawn into this conflict whether we want to be there or not. Interesting read...

Radical Islam vs Israel

biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 3502218
Fri, Sep 14, 15:11

...and a different point of view.

ChicagoTRS
Sustainer
ID: 4324316
Fri, Sep 14, 15:17

First paragraph of the above link I posted...

"Regrettably, the Christian world has not yet come to grips with the fact that Israel is on the front lines against a rapidly expanding wave of Radical Islamic Fundamentalism which, unfortunately is likely to soon engulf the world."

I guess he had it pretty much nailed... written Jul01

ChicagoTRS
Sustainer
ID: 4324316
Fri, Sep 14, 15:22

Terrorism in Israel? What Israel has been living with in just the last year...

"CHARACTERISTICS OF TERRORIST ATTACKS IN THE WEST BANK AND GAZA FROM SEPTEMBER 29, 2000 TO 1 SEPTEMBER 2001

By Aaron Lerner

The following data appears in a pie chart on the IDF website:

7368 Total terrorist attacks: in the West Bank and Gaza Strip:

4322 Shootings at military installations

1041 Shootings at vehicles

679 Shootings at towns and villages

432 Grenades

291 Bombs detonated

262 Mortar bombs

184 Anti Tank missiles

126 Bombs found

22 Stabbings/Assaults

9 Hit and run

[does not include stones and fire bombs]

Dr. Aaron Lerner, Director
IMRA (Independent Media Review & Analysis)
(mail POB 982 Kfar Sava)
Tel 972-9-7604719/Fax 972-3-5480092"

Rogue's Strikers
ID: 33732119
Fri, Sep 14, 15:34

I believe that my case against religion was made best by The Mentors in posts #40 and #41: "Over the past 100 years religion has become less and less prominant in or society and in the decades to come the trend will continue. I believe for the benifit of us all." "If my Mom knew I said that she would murder me."

Why should anyone be afraid to say their opinion? This is the part of religion that I despise. I love the parts that gangman alluded to in #33, but 40 and 41 prove exactly why I hate it. It seems like for every one good deed it does there are at least 2 or 3 people being brainwashed into believing something they don't want to. Belief in a religion should be a CHOICE, not something forced on you by your parents. Parents ask their kids "Do you want to play in a baseball league? Yes? Great! No? Thats ok too!" Why don't they ask "are you interested in learning more about Christianity?" Why is it an accepted thing that children have no say in this descision? #37, Judge Mental hints at how difficult it was for him to learn of something other than the bible. He never even had the choice between them. He had to learn Christianity, THEN decide if it was what he believed in.

I also dislike when religion is crammed down my throat. Gangman, in #33, you didn't exactly cram, but you made a decent effort. I'll agree with you, religion brought about the first things of civilization. But I'm of the belief that if religion hadn't done it people still would have figured out how to write, read, love, etc. Religion was the instrument threw which these things were first learned. If it hadn't been there, an other instrument would have been used. Your dogs aren't saddened by what happened this week because they aren't sentient. Religion didn't come before human sentience(sp?), it came AFTER. Love, hate, reading, writing, technology were inevitable, not created only because religion was around. At least this is my belief. I know its not yours, but your post was basically saying to Judge and others like him (me) that your view was right and we either didn't understand or didn't see. We do see that POV, but we prefer our own.

ChicagoTRS
Sustainer
ID: 4324316
Fri, Sep 14, 15:34

Another link that gives a very clear picture of the recent history (40 years) of troubles between Israel and the rest of the Arab world. Plus why the problem is so difficult and probably will not be solved anytime soon.

Thinking outside the box

Dec
ID: 48541115
Fri, Sep 14, 15:53

So from the links of biliburen Mulsim Palestine
http://www.arab.net/palestine/history/pe_muslim.html

Palestine was invaded by Muslim Arab armies which captured Jerusalem in AD638. Thus began 1300 years of Muslim presence in what became known as Filastin.
The land was holy to Muslims because the prophet Mohammed had first designated that his followers must face Jerusalem when praying. The prophet was believed to have ascended to Heaven on a night journey from the area in Jerusalem where the Dome of the Rock was later built. The city was therefore, after Makkah and Medina, the third holiest city of Islam.
The conquering Muslims did not force their religion upon the Palestinians and in fact, it was more than a century before most of them converted. Once they converted, however, they did adopt Arabic and Islamic culture as their own. The Christians and Jews remaining in the country were considered "People of the Book" and as such were allowed control of their communities and guaranteed security and freedom of worship. Such tolerance was -- and is -- rare in the history of religion.
At this time the Muslim empire was ruled by the Umayyads from Damascus and Palestine, as a close neighbor, profited from both trade and religious traffic. In 750, when the caliphate shifted to Baghdad with the Abbasids, Palestine experienced a decline in importance and was somewhat neglected by the new rulers. It suffered unrest and domination by various groups, including Europeans at the time of the Crusades, and later the Mamelukes from Egypt.
As with most of the Muslim world, however, Palestine shared in the golden age of Islam when the Muslim world enjoyed pre-eminence in science, art, philosophy and literature. Greek learning was preserved in no small part by Muslim scholars who, in that way, contributed to the European Renaissance.

sarge33rd
ID: 25818711
Fri, Sep 14, 15:54

One of my favorite classes in college was a humanities course, Religion in Human Culture. (Now, like a few others here, I'm an Atheist. What that REALLY means is this: I consider it to be my duty to treat my neighbor with the same respect I wish from him. Thats it folks...really quite simple. ) Anyway, it was amazing to me, the utterly astonished looks on the faces of other students, when while discussing ancient civilizations our professor referred to 'witchcraft' as 'religion' or what we now call mythology as 'religion'. Simple truth is, Odin was just as real to the ancient Norsemen as Jesus is to the Christian. It's my belief, that IF the human race doesnt first render itself extinct, somewhere down the long road of time, Christianity/Judaism/Muslim/Tao/Shinto/Hinduism/Buddhism etc etc tec will ALL be referred to as 'mythologies'.

Then when someone referred to the persecution of the Christians by the ancient Romans, and how 'the church would NEVER do something like that"...I actually started laughing outloud. Asked this person, "Have you never heard of the Crusades? The Spainish Inquisition? Or to be more currently relevant, N Ireland? or what if one of the Mayoral candidates was a professed Atheist? You think that candidate would have any chance what-so-ever at election, even if the other candidate was totally unqualified for the job?"

Fact is, Christians persecute Christians, Non-Christians persecute Christians and each group persecutes its own. Religion has nothing to do with it, NOTHING. Human on the other hand, has EVERYTHING to do with it.

sarge33rd
ID: 25818711
Fri, Sep 14, 15:57

that last line should be...human nature has everything to do with it...sorry, poor typist

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Fri, Sep 14, 16:06

Sarge we are once again in disagreement. To hear,
"Fact is, Christians persecute Christians, Non-Christians persecute Christians and each group persecutes its own. Religion has nothing to do with it, NOTHING."
is quite alarming coming from someone with a military background and your displayed knowledge of military intelligence. The beef (at least the original beef) that militant muslims have with The USA, if I and my high school history teachers are not mistaken, is that we allow Isrealis to exist and essentially control their holy land. Of course this is much more comp[licated now, but the term Jihad has EVERYTHING to do with religion.

100

ChicagoTRS
Sustainer
ID: 4324316
Fri, Sep 14, 16:20

Read the above links I had posted and you will see all of this fighting is all about religion.

101

Gangman
Leader
ID: 346541215
Fri, Sep 14, 18:24

Rogue...not trying to cram anything down
anyone's throat. Live and let live I say. I am just
being loyal to my beliefs and sharing them.

The links provided in 90 and 95 are very
relevant. It has become time to take sides,
and the radical Muslims have made it that
way.

102

Chuck
ID: 12821313
Fri, Sep 14, 19:07

One thing people must consider:

Evangelical Christianity declares that there is one way to heaven. If there are other ways to heaven, evangelical Christianity is WRONG, and everything based solely on evangelical Christianity is on no foundation at all. On the other hand, if evangelical Christianity is right, then there is only one way to heaven and everything else has to be wrong.

As an evangelical Christian, I will not force my beliefs on anyway-- if I can convince you to believe it, someone else can convince you not to believe it. But, there is no middle ground for me, either. If, when I get to heaven, I find that there are other ways to heaven, other than through JESUS, I will not want to be there.

103

sarge33rd
ID: 25818711
Fri, Sep 14, 20:51

MITH- My point is that, in my opinion...the radical Muslim's which are conducting these attacks...are using religion as their excuse. Were it not a religious difference, it would be a monetary exchange difference, or a language difference or whatever other petty nonsense they could come up with as their 'rationale'. I look at N Ireland, where Catholics/Protestants...worshippers of the same God...have spent the past 400 yrs or thereabouts killing each other..IN THE NAME OF GOD. Why? I think (cant recall my history exactly at the moment) that it has something to do with one sides supporting the English Church back in the days of Irish subjugation under the King of England while the other side fought for independence. Ok fine. Except those people are all dead now and have been for a couple hundred of years. Why continue? This is but one example, there are many more. Because I believe man is inevitably going to fight/kill/subjagate their fellow man...that is why I say religion is not the cause, its the scapegoat.

104

Roo
ID: 665497
Fri, Sep 14, 21:02

ChicagoTRS:

"Read the above links I had posted and you will see all of this fighting is all about religion.

Read down to the bottom of the above links and you see this:

Probably not the most impartial of sources!

Israel, and therefore the US, would love people to believe that this is "all about religion", as the solution to Huntingdon's new fault line ... between the Judeo-Christian cultures of the West and the Islamic cultures of the East is obvious. As Ann Coulter wrote in the National Review so beloved by other contributors to this forum:

"We know who the homicidal maniacs are. They are the ones cheering and dancing right now. We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity."

Unsurprisingly, it's a bit more complicated than that. Try reading an alternative viewpoint:

Robert Fisk in "The Independent"

U.S. Policy Toward Political Islam

U.S. Security Assistance to Israel

Israel’s Policy of Targeting Terrorists: Implications for the U.S.

105

Harkonnon
ID: 50230315
Fri, Sep 14, 21:23

excellent post Roo

I hope a lot of people take their time to read all of the links !

106

The_Beast
ID: 197252915
Fri, Sep 14, 21:33

Imagine a world where there is no differences? Utterly unimagineable!!! The future would turn out to be the ugly seen described by Aldous Huxley in "Brave New World." Mankind would become mechanical without beliefs and religion. You cannot convince me that being a moral, decent teenage male growing up in a immoral culture where sex and drugs are acceptable that i will not be rewarded for my devotion. If this is true we should all go around commiting all these evils. And if anyone contradicts the "immoral culture" statement i have to ask you: when was the last time you were in high school watching kids destroy their futures?

107

Sandlot
Donor
ID: 5343219
Fri, Sep 14, 21:43

"We know who the homicidal maniacs are. They are the ones cheering and dancing right now. We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity."

The above quote is another of those inflammatory quotes that divides people and turns them off to Christianity. This woman does not speak for me, or for the vast majority of Christians, that's for sure.

It's always true, whether in this case, or in the case of Islamic extremists who use passenger jets as weapons - the 1% does not reflect the views and beliefs of the other 99%.

108

Pilewort
Donor
ID: 347142619
Fri, Sep 14, 22:53

sorry, ChicagoTRS. I meant MITH.

as for not arguing religion, how can you take any stand related to the WTC terrorism without a cursory understanding of the world's religions?

Yes, I know my co-workers are wrong. That was one of my points.

However, I certainly don't think their opinion is unique. In fact, their attitude seems to be shared not only on talk radio, in the workplace and barber shop, but also among indiviuals who otherwise are well spoken.

109

sarge33rd
ID: 25818711
Fri, Sep 14, 23:01

Beast-If you look to your future with the kind of genuine maturity that your post suggests, then I salute you. You are to be commended. However, for me, it's FAR more important how you treat your fellow man on a daily basis, that what you espouse to believe for an hour every Sunday morning. The sheer hypocrisy of what I've seen within the church, is what turned me off on religion as its practiced today. Of all the religions I've looked at (many in depth) Hinduism is probably as close to a theology as I could buy into. The basic premise there, is that for each of us, there is a higher 'place'. How we get there, is as unique and individual as we are. Obviously there is more to it than that alone, but thats it in a nutshell. I just don't feel that religion as such, is a requirement for treating another human with dignity and respect. If the idea of God/Christ etc provides comfort for you in difficult times, then by all means. Avail yourself of the faith. I'll deny noone the right to choose to believe, and I'll defend to the death, that same persons right not to believe.
Christians as a whole, have no more lock on 'good' than any other group. Nor does membership in any church I know of, preclude a person from being a horses-ass.

110

F Gump
ID: 53837117
Sat, Sep 15, 00:09

JUDGE MENTAL (post 72)

I have been away from the boards for quite a while today, and you addressed that to me. Maybe it was intended to be rhetorical: if so, I have no desire to OPEN a long analysis like that calls for when you did not really want it. However, if you really DID want me to address those topics and answer those questions, say so and I will do so as completely as I can.

111

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 13613719
Sat, Sep 15, 15:12

Sarge, I respectfully mantain that religion indeed plays a major part of every level many of today's and history's most horrendous acts and conflicts, but no longer wish to debate the matter. I concede the debate.

Beast,
"You cannot convince me... moral, decent teenage male growing up in a immoral culture ...that i will not be rewarded for my devotion"
If what you say about your ethical devotion is true, I admire and congratulate your morals and I agree, you will be and I'm quite sure already have been rewarded for them. A displayed high ethical standing earns one the respect and trust of others. To the person who is not certain that eternal salvation exists, what is more important in life? Those with little or no moral standing seek the same, but take the easier routes of greed, intimidation and exploitation. Unfortunatly, those who do so fail to see the difference between respect and fear.
I'd never tell you the reward that you've been taught your morals and values will one day yield do not exist. I only suggest that other, very redeeming traits of your character have emerged from what you have held virtuous and that you are selling yourself short if you do not recognize them as fruits of your devotion.

112

1
ID: 23857150
Sat, Sep 15, 16:01

This is a little strange because last Sunday I was thinking about starting a thread to see everyone's view on religion.

I really want to be religious, but I still have my doubts because of one question that I cannot answer.

Why would a God say to himself at the beginning of time, " Hmmm, I think I will create a universe and an Earth, where I will put people. Many of them will suffer and many will have great lives. If they decide not to worship me, then I will send them to an eternity of suffering in Hell, but if they do want to follow me, they can be in Heaven." That just seems like a strange experiment to me. It's like a person buying a dog so they will be loved by something and then beating the dog if it doesn't love them.
I want to believe in God, so I just have to tell myself that we aren't meant to know why we exist.

Also, what makes us believe that Our God is the real god, and their god is not.

Again, I dont want to have those thoughts, but they always creep in.

113

The_Beast
ID: 197252915
Sat, Sep 15, 16:12

1: God does not send people to Hell for not believing in him. They are sent to Hell for commiting evil acts and not attempting to repent for them. Heres an example of how i see it works.

Example 1: Joe goes to church every week and always acts like a good person there. He returns home from mass, gets drunk, and beats his wife. He never feels that he is commiting a wrong. The way i see it Joe will be sent to Hell.

Example 2: Mark wasnt raised into organized religion. He helps out at a shelter for the homeless and visits the sick every week. When he hurts someone he always feels bad and tries to do good for that person to make up for the pain. In my opinion Mark will go to Heaven even though he did not go to church and believe in God.

114

1
ID: 7891516
Sat, Sep 15, 16:34

So why can't Joe make the same decisions as Mark? You could say that he has the choice not to act like he does, but what makes him choose the route he has chosen? That may or may not make any sense, but it kinda makes you think about predestination that no one seems to believe in any longer. I dont believe in predestination, but it was just a thought.

115

katietx
ID: 17821423
Sat, Sep 15, 16:59

Beast...you asked the question "when was the last time you were in a high school watching kids..."

I am much, much older than you are. In fact my son is 29. When I was in high school (yeah, they had high school that long ago-lol), kids worked on destroying their futures everyday. The Christian and non-Christian alike.

I commend you for working on being a decent, upright, moral human. But, understand that religion has really nothing to do with it. I was not brought up in a particulary avid Christian, God-fearing household. We went to church on an irregular basis. At one point I became a Catholic. And to this day still consider myself one altho no longer practicing. I believe I lead a moral, ethical life (at least try to!) and I honestly think it has more to do with the teaching of my parents and grandparents than the church.

My son was brought up in an on-again, off-again church going household. Taught to believe in Jesus as his savior. Today, he is an agnostic, cum-Buddist.

So while I personally think religion (of any kind) is important in one's life, by no means does it (as reiterated many times above) have an exclusivity on morals and ethics. Even some of those taught the two, end up bad people. Why? I believe because we were given free will. It's a choice. I just thank my God that the majority choose right.

As I have said to those closest in my life, "It matters not that you don't believe in God, because he believes in you." Do right, think right and love your fellow man to best of your ability and you will be rewarded. Maybe not always the reward you are looking for, but rewarded nonetheless.

116

Lutefisker
ID: 3182118
Sat, Sep 15, 18:09

Regarding post 112 - I believe that the answer to that question is 2 fold. Of course, this is my answer, and I reserve the right to my belief, even as I acknowledge that each of you must ultimatly find your own.

1) God created us with free will to do right or wrong, to believe in Him or not believe in Him, because "God is love". Love can not force itself on another being, nor can it make another being love in return. I beleive that Love is not truly complete until it is returned. As such, God being love, God created us so that God would have beings who would love Him in return. This must be voluntary from the other being, however, otherwise it simply is not really love.

Thus, God had to give us the free will to act in evil ways or we would have had no real CHOICE in acting good. God had to give us the option of hating and being hateful, or else we could not truly be loving. And thus, He created us with free will, to do right or wrong, to be loving or hateful, to believe in Him or not believe in Him.

2- Personally, I believe that we have misconstrued what the Bible and Jesus have said about Hell. Having felt the Holy Spirit in my life, My whole perception of Hell has changed. I do not believe that Hell is a place of fire and torment so much as it is a place (be it a physical place or a condition) for those whose souls have chosen by one means or another to not accept the loving and good nature of God. The Hell involved is also talked about in the Bible and is much more consistant with a loving God. The Hell that I perceive is what is referred to as the outer darkness.

Imagine finding out that you were invited to the most awesome, hughest, grandest party in town and then finding out because of the way that you acted and the way that you did not respect the person holding the party that you were no longer invited to the party. Imagine knowing that it was your fault that you could not now or ever go to the party. The feeling of self-inflicted wound, the realization that you could not go and it was utterly your fault that you could not go... that to me is Hell.

I can imagine no worse Hell than to be shown the awesomeness of the Holy Spirit and than to know that I would never feel that presence again. This is Hell, as I understand it.

Finally... Is Hell internal or external. I believe that the very nature of Heaven and Hell are within us. I know people who are in miserable circumstance yet are very happy, and others who seem to have everything yet are miserable. Which one is in Hell?

You see... Hell could not really be a place where good souls go, or else it would not be Hell for very long because the very presence of those good souls would change the very nature of Hell. Nor could Heaven be a place where evil souls go (even if they have professed Jesus) or else it would soon cease to be Heaven.

Ultimatly. I believe that Hell is the the absence of God and Heaven is the presence of God and that God is Love. Thus... Even here on Earth, there are those that love, that already have a taste of Heaven on Earth, and those that hate that are already in a form of Hell on Earth.

May all that are here feel the love that is of God and truly feel, while still on Earth, that bit of heaven that can be felt here!

117

Chuck
ID: 398571517
Sat, Sep 15, 18:17

Re post #112:

(This is an evangelical Christian response to the question/dilemna to this statement)

"Why would a God say to himself at the beginning of time, " Hmmm, I think I will create a universe and an Earth, where I will put people. Many of them will suffer and many will have great lives. If they decide not to worship me, then I will send them to an eternity of suffering in Hell, but if they do want to follow me, they can be in Heaven." That just seems like a strange experiment to me. It's like a person buying a dog so they will be loved by something and then beating the dog if it doesn't love them. I want to believe in God, so I just have to tell myself that we aren't meant to know why we exist."

First off, your foundation of your argument is completely wrong. God formed the earth perfect. He formed it in a perfect garden with perfect people-- suffering was not created by God.

BUT, He also gave people a choice to follow him. He wanted his creation of mankind (shortened to man in this response to save time) to love him. But if man only had God, there would be no love. LOVE involves a choice. God gave them an entire garden and told man not to eat from one tree. Their choice: obey God or not obey God. Initially, there were no "gray areas" of decision making. As for doing other things we consider "bad" today-- Adam and Eve had no concept of it. There was no adultery-- it was just the two of them. There was no stealing-- God had given them everything (but the one tree). There were no bad thoughts, because GOD did not create them. All "bad things" are things man has created and not God.

But, man was not happy with all this. Man chose, through the deception of the Serpent, to disobey God. Again, God did NOT want them to do this, but in order for man to love HIM, they had to CHOOSE.

This had grave consequences. As much as God still loved man, GOD was still PERFECT. Man was not. God used to walk with man, but now man cannot. Because God is good/holy/perfect/blameless/(fill in other similie here) he HAD to take ADAM and EVE out of the garden. Every "man" that has ever lived deserves the same thing. Contrary to popular thought, man is NOT BORN GOOD. Man is born bad. Man needs a Savior to be brought back to God.

The wages of sin is (physical/eternal) death.
The gift of God is (abundant/eternal) life.

A perfect God cannot allow unperfect mankind in his presence. But once man has accepted the sacrifice, he is justified in God's sight. No "It's like I've never sinned." But, "Jesus covered over my sin."

Because of this, God allows man to have eternal life.

One of the best quotes I have heard:
"God does not send people to hell, People choose to go to hell when they reject the sacrifice he gave."

One final thought:
I believe there are many people, some even prominent, that claimed to know Jesus that will not be in heaven. Also, I believe that there will be some people in heaven that surprise everyone.

I sincerely, honestly 100% believe (even if it makes no sense to me or others) that if one of those hijackers, at the last minute before a plane crashed repented of their action and put their faith in Jesus Christ, they will be spending eternity in heaven. I do not believe it is likely that (m)any of them did, but if they did, I believe God heard their call. Remember the theif on the cross...

118

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 13613719
Sat, Sep 15, 18:53

Thanks to everyone for participating in this and offering their insight here. I love that so many different views were expressed and that everyone's opinions were accepted with such respect.
Chuck - on your last paragraph, for whatever its worth coming from the point of view of an agnostic (though remember I was raised RC) I appreciate your mention and interpretation of the thief on the cross. Well said.

119

Chuck
ID: 398571517
Sat, Sep 15, 18:57

even if I can't spell "thief" right?

;-)

120

Chuck
ID: 398571517
Sat, Sep 15, 19:09

I know that Falwell and others got spoken out against before for saying their mind at an inopportune time.

I think it is fair that someone who has thought things out with a Christian perspective get mentioned on here, as well.

Chuck Colson is a great communicator. I really appreciated this honest but sensitive interview:
The Dark Hour of our Nation's Soul

I don't know if I agree with every little thing he says, but it is a solid Christian perspective that is well thought out. I recommend you all to read it.

121

1
ID: 7891516
Sat, Sep 15, 19:15

Good points from the both of you,I am obviously very uninformed. However, I don't understand how God could not know that the man he had created would definitely eat from the "bad" tree, disobey him, and eventually create a world of evil. I understand that we can choose but why create anything if you know that some of your creations will go against your love and eventually suffer?

I am sorry to be filling these boards with this topic, I just want to see various points of view on this subject.

122

F Gump
ID: 53837117
Sat, Sep 15, 19:16

CHUCK

Very well stated.

LUTEFISKER

The question of the nature of heaven and hell is one that has been debated for years. However, the only One who actually knew the answer told us what hell is like, in vivid word pictures.

Jesus, in Luke 16, describes hell (or hades) as a place of torment by flame. It may be our desire to try to cushion the severity of such a description, or try to explain it away as somehow being "figurative" because we are offended by the concept, but the Bible does not support that.

The severity of eternity is why a loving God was willing to allow his Son to become a brutal sacrifice, as a substitute for the punishment WE deserve for our sins, so that we have the ability to spend eternity with a perfect and righteous God if we choose to. God OWED us nothing as sinners: it is His amazing love that allows ANY of us into his Heaven.

Hell must be an incredibly terrible place if the God of the Universe gave his Son to die a horrendous death so that some (those who choose to accept that sacrifice) could avoid the place. If it was merely uncomfortable or temporary, there would have been no purpose for Jesus to die for our sins.

123

F Gump
ID: 53837117
Sat, Sep 15, 19:27

1

God of course DID know the outcome of creating creatures with free will. Some will choose to go their own way and reject God when given a choice: that is the nature of free will. With sin and Satan, the world became a far different place.

Even more amazing is this: knowing that mankind ultimately WOULD reject Him, God provided a way that the mankind he had created could still be made right with Him. So, before the world began, He was already willing to provide that Way. The price: the death of His Son, in a brutal agonizing crucifixion, to pay for all the sins of the world. What an incredible God!

124

katietx
ID: 17821423
Sat, Sep 15, 20:32

FG...re: your last paragraph...exactly.

125

Ender
ID: 13443221
Sat, Sep 15, 21:42

Re: Post 112

I will leave the discussion of Hell to those who seem to have more faith in their understanding of the issue than I do. I will say that no matter what the imagery, no matter what the actual mechanism it comes down to the fact there will be a finite point in time in which it will be too late. The Bible is clear on this. We have the option of accepting God's Grace through Faith, or rejecting this precious gift that we do not, can not, and never will deserve. God is Love, and as such loves each and every person even those who choose not to accept his Grace. We all need love, and therefore need God. We try and fill this need in many, many ways. We all at some point believee we can satisfy this need with some idol or indulgence apart from God. At the time of judgement, we will be confronted with our decision to either accept his Grace, or reject it. At that point, it will be clear that God is the only thing that can fill that need. Those who have recognized this and accepted it, will be with Him eternally, those who have rejected it will not be. I believe that it is this very fact, that it is perfectly clear at that point what we need, and that the people who have rejected it, now realize it and it is too late to accept it is the the very nature of Hell, eternal separation from God with full knowledge of that separation and the finality of it.

That was actually longer than I intended, but I think the imagery of fire, whether it is metaphorical or physical, drives this point home.

What I really intended to address is 1's question "Also, what makes us believe that Our God is the real god, and their god is not."

I think what I am going to do is do a little more homework so I can provide the appropriate chapter and verse references and such. In the mean time 1, your questions are timely, legitimate, and deserve careful consideration by all. You need not make any apologies for them, especially when this thread is clearly devoted to this very issue.

126

Sandlot
Donor
ID: 59832108
Sat, Sep 15, 22:16

KKB - I just visited your Flash website and was blown away with your Fall 01 offering. I encourage all to check it out. You need to have Macromedia Flash 5 to view.

127

Lutefisker
ID: 3182118
Sat, Sep 15, 23:36

Re post 121...

Please understand. I tend towards the liberal side of Christianity and there are those who interpret the Bible in ways different than I do. I tend to have a theological stance along the lines of a couple of Theologians named Cobb and Whitehurst. It is known as Process Theology.

I believe that there is a definite possibility that God did/does not know the outcome of all of the particular outcomes of a human soul. I also believe that God is all knowing. How can I believe both?

I believe that an all knowing and all powerful God can have the ability to know all things while choosing not to know certain things. If, in fact, God MUST know all things than God,indeed, is not ALL POWERFUL since there is something beyond His power ( and that is to decide not to know something). Thus, to me, God is all knowing in the sense that God CAN know everything but because God is all powerful has choosen not to do this. He has done this so that we might have free will to do as my above post indicated.

On what basis do I make this claim? The Bible.

1)It is clear that the Bible says that God has forgotten our sins as far as East is from West. THis is what the Bible says. Again... THe bible says that God has intentionally FORGOTTEN.

2) It is clear that God can decide to not be all knowing in sections of His Trinity since God the Son was not all knowing while on this Earth. This is also Biblical when Jesus states that neither He, nor the angels in heaven nor anyone else knew when he would return, but only His Father in Heaven. God chose to not know everything when He was on this Earth as Jesus Christ.

Further, as to Adam, perhaps God did know what Adam would do but allowed it to happen so that the rest of the human race would propogate in fallen form and thus create many beings who would ultimatly turn to Him in the love that He desired.

I wonder... If Adam had not eaten from the tree and than been kicked out of the Garden, would any of us be here today to discuss this very topic. Perhaps, in an odd sort of way, we need to be thankful for Adams sin.

Re post 122... How long ya got to discuss this. I have studied the topic rather well. Regarding Luke 16, the story of Lazarus is a parable and has to do with doing good to others while you can, the finality of one's judgement once it has occurred and Jesus's eventual death and resurrection. In my opinion, the incidental setting is as relevant to reality as is the incidental possibility of a mustard seed actually moving a mountain (although one with the faith of a mustard seed may actually move a mountain).

128

Lutefisker
ID: 3182118
Sat, Sep 15, 23:39

Err... thats Whitehead and not Whitehurst... my bad!!!

129

Chuck
ID: 398571517
Sat, Sep 15, 23:43

It looks like Ender is going to do some homework. I will try to do some as well-- but I know I will get busy with classes later this week.

One point I want to reiterate (quoting myself-- is that right? from post #102:

"Evangelical Christianity declares that there is one way to heaven. If there are other ways to heaven, evangelical Christianity is WRONG, and everything based solely on evangelical Christianity is on no foundation at all. On the other hand, if evangelical Christianity is right, then there is only one way to heaven and everything else has to be wrong."

Jesus declares in John 14:6-
"I am THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE. NO ONE comes to the father except through me."

If you do not believe there is only one way to heaven, then you cannot believe evangelical Christianity.

One final thought:
I do not mind at all trying to explain and clarify thoughts and misconceptions related to the Bible, and it appears that many others here agree with me. BUT, I beg you, as you ask your questions, do not use the ideas you do not know to be your reason for not placing your faith in something. There are many things that evolutionists do not know about evolution, yet they still manage to place their faith in their theory. Why should it be any different for Christians?

As you ask questions and try to work out things, I challenge each of you here with questions to ask God to reveal himself to you. Fully seek after GOD, even if right now you are not sure who He is or what His purposes are. Do not be afraid to ask the tough questions, but do not be afraid to respond to the call in your heart if you feel one.

There are some great apologists out there, but many people could have every question about God answered by them and they would still not believe because they do not want to believe. We should ask God to help us with our unbelief if we are seeking.

Finally, I believe KKB mentioned the whole risk reward factor with God and belief. If you were the one in the WTC that day, do you know where you would go and why you would go there? If you are not sure, I would encourage you to settle that today.

OK, I really didn't mean to preach there, but I feel sometimes people can think so academically (myself included) that they forget about the faith aspect.

Again, I am speaking on behalf of evangelical Christianity here. Please feel free to contact me with questions for or against Christianity, but please only contact if you would like a rational discusion.

I'm off to bed for now... maybe. BTW, great conversation everyone!

130

Chuck
ID: 398571517
Sat, Sep 15, 23:53

As for you Lutefisker... ;-)

First, there are some who think that the Luke 16 is not a parable. I personally am undecided. One reason they say this is that there are names given in the story. In none of Jesus' other stated parables are names given. I'll try to get back to you on that with my thoughts later.

As for what heaven/hell is:
I believe that they both are literal places. Read Revelation. Again, if you see that book as a "story" you would disagree with me. While we do not know what all the symbolism is, I believe that the premise of the book is about future events that will come.
As for your basic premise, I fully agree:
-Heaven is the presence of God
-Hell is the absense of God
The worst part of hell, I believe, is the absence of God. Even in the worst of tragedies, God is around. Imagine if God's presence (however small it may feel to us) were not around today? It would make things that much worse in dealing with tragedy.

"Rejection of Christ is man telling God that he doesn't need Him; hell is God granting man his request."

131

Chuck
ID: 398571517
Sat, Sep 15, 23:53

P. S.
If anyone wants to talk about "end times" specifically, I suggest we start another thread.

:-)

132

Roo
ID: 665497
Sun, Sep 16, 00:02

Not sure which thread to put this in, but it fits here as well as anywhere, given the recent discussion of heaven.

For a Muslim point of view:

"Who could have done such immense evil? I have asked this question as many times as I have seen the pictures on television. Every viewing fills me with unspeakable sadness. Are people calling themselves Muslims capable of such atrocities? Are they reading the same Koran? Are they the followers of the same Prophet Muhammad?"

P.s. Thanks Harkonnon.

133

Lutefisker
ID: 3182118
Sun, Sep 16, 00:03

Chuck... about the only thing I want to say about the End times (although I have been known to say more), you already kinda said (but I may as well reiterate the point).

For the people in those towers and in those planes. The "End Time" was when the planes smacked into the buildings and the building colapsed. I pray that they were ready at that point because regardless of when the world's "End Time" is, their "End Time" was then. Our personal "End Time" may be at any moment and is literally only a heart-beat away.

134

Chuck
ID: 398571517
Sun, Sep 16, 00:05

lute-- Very true. Many people say they will "find a religion when they get older". My guess is that some in that tower had the same philosophy. Additionally, some in that tower never even had a chance to pray. Another reason that "today is the day of salvation."

135

Ender
ID: 13443221
Sun, Sep 16, 01:11

Chuck, you're reference John 14:6 lies at the heart of my answer to 1's question. I haven't done any homework yet, but will certainly be doing some in the next 24 hours. I do want to recommend "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel to anyone with questions regarding this issue. His second book "The Case for Faith" is a must read for any Christian who wrestles with any lingering questions or doubts (and what Christian doesn't from time to time? It's not like you make up your mind to accept His Grace and follow Him and suddenly you have all the answers.)

136

James K Polk
ID: 42911423
Sun, Sep 16, 01:46

Was going to mention this before, but got busy. The philosophical questions that KKB mentioned in post 25 come from a very famous argument known as Pascal's Wager. If you're not familiar with Blaise Pascal, he was a 17th-century mathematician who was heavy into probability theory -- especially as it pertained to gambling -- as well as religion. In a way, Pascal's Wager was sort of an answer to the proofs of God's existence offered by philosophers such as Anselm and Aquinas.

The link has a lot of great information on the history of Pascal's Wager, as well as many of the criticisms levied against it by skeptics.

137

Lutefisker
ID: 3182118
Sun, Sep 16, 02:57

I second the recommendation of Strobels, "A Case For Christ".

And anti-up McDowell's, "Evidence that Demands a Verdict"

Both awesome apologetics, although I think that "A Case For Christ" is an easier read.

138

Lutefisker
ID: 3182118
Sun, Sep 16, 03:26

Chuck/Ender RE. John 14:6 paraphrased: Christ is the way the truth and the light, no one goes through the Father except through Christ.

I agree completly.... And that should concern you ;)

Now... What does it mean to go through Christ?

My postulation is that the Native American before 1492, as an example, who had no chance to know the name of Christ, went through Christ when He looked up at the stars and said to himself, "Wow, what a beautiful sky, surely there is a great creator!! O that I would know that creator better!!!"

I use as my reasoning for this position, Romans 2:13-15 (KJV) :

" For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their coscience also bearing witness and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else EXCUSING one another"

So my question becomes: While Christ is surely the gate and is the Word that is written in all hearts, Does one need to know the name of the gate that one must go through, if one walks the path that the gate is situated on?

This question applies primarily to those who have either not heard of Christ or who have only heard of a false Christ.

Now of course, the question becomes:

And what does it mean to have heard of a false Christ?

For this, I ask a rhetorical question. Did the Native Americans who only heard of Christ through the people who killed their men, raped their women and sent their children off to slavery, and thus rejected the Christ that they were told about due to the atrocities of his so called followers, really ever hear of the true Christ?

And finally, how might the answer to the above question apply to today?

139

James K Polk
ID: 42911423
Sun, Sep 16, 04:24

I haven't read much C.S. Lewis in a while, but I think he tackles a similar issue in one of his Narnia stories. Aslan talks about the righteousness of a man called Tarkaan, who, even though he serves the evil god Tash, strives to do only good. Ultimately Aslan accepts him (and changes his name, IIRC).

140

F Gump
ID: 53837117
Sun, Sep 16, 09:29

LUTEFISKER

Re the story of the rich man and Lazarus, my take ...

1) I believe that it was indeed a story of an actual man that Jesus was relating, maybe even one that his followers knew of. As noted above, he used a specific name, which he does NOT do in the parables.

2) It is noteworthy that when Jesus told parables, he used accurate day-to-day settings. He was not creating "fanciful tales" to illustrate his points, but rather true-life analogies that his followers would be familiar with.

His disciples had never been to Hades, so that certainly would not have fit the "familiarity" concept. Nor was it a day-to-day scene for them, for that matter. And he certainly had no reason to "make up" fanciful language about hell/hades: in his story, all he had to do was tell it accurately and his point about "future consequences" was made.

CONCLUSION: I think Jesus was using a true story to illustrate. And, at the same time, he gave us a vivid glimpse of what hell is actually like.

142

Ender
ID: 13443221
Sun, Sep 16, 12:15

Why didn't you gleefully avoid this thread, which was clearly started for discussion of religion? I'm not trying to start an argument, but I find it odd that you would post that statement in a thread which seemingly meets your demand.

143

puckprophet
ID: 52712723
Sun, Sep 16, 12:24

you're right ender, i just saw a proliferation of religion across the boards as i checked in this morning..i'm just not into it..

144

Harkonnon
ID: 50230315
Sun, Sep 16, 12:36

so you are another one of these false prophets ?

sorry could not resist that one ;-)

145

Ender
ID: 13443221
Sun, Sep 16, 12:36

Fair enough. I understand that some people may not want to hear some or all of these discussions. Your as much entitled to your frustration as we are to our discussions.

146

puckprophet
ID: 52712723
Sun, Sep 16, 12:42

yes hark.

147

Gangman
Leader
ID: 10434285
Sun, Sep 16, 14:24

pp - You didn't realize that you were amongst
'bible thumpers"? Sorry.

The depth and quality of your contributions to
this thread are so insightful, that I'm just
overwhelmed....not.

Unlike you, most of the people posting in this
forum consider themselves friends, in an
abstract manner. The only reason YOU are
here is fantasy baseball. I can only speak for
myself when I write that I am here today
because this is part of my community and
there are some other things going on right
now besides TSN baseball.

I recommend you just be judicious, and avoid
any threads that don't have baseball related
titles, and you'll likely find them more secular.

Hey, and if it makes you feel better, give us a
"1" in the ratings. Me, I'll give it a "5".

148

Lutefisker
ID: 3182118
Sun, Sep 16, 14:51

And, at the present... precisely what baseball were we supposed to have been discussing?

149

Lutefisker
ID: 3182118
Sun, Sep 16, 15:11

F Gump... the concept that parables do not have names is a rather self-fulfilling statement and thus circular logic. I say some parables do have names and point to the story of Lazarus (coincidently - also the name of the longest living human) as an example of where a parable does have a name.

As for it being the only case of a singular example, there is only one Gospel that talks of the virgin birth. Shall we use the same logic there?

As for the day to day setting, please tell me where a mustard seed moved a mountain. I agree, Jesus did TEND to not use names in parables and he did TEND to use common settings, but I chose not to limit my Lord to only what he tended to do. He was, afterall, a rather inovative, imaginative and surprising character.

Finally, Exactly how big is Abrahams bosom. Did only Lazarus sit in it? How did the rest fit. Is it a real chasm? Can't God cross that chasm? Is there really something that God can not do?

No, I am sorry. "The bosom of Abraham", a chasm that God can not even cross but that a lesser being can speak and see across, parables directly before the story of Lazarus and directly after the story of Lazarus all lead me to believe that it is a parable.

Your opinion may of course differ... but that is the point. There is no absolute agreement on this story that is commonly known as the "parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man" and if there is any common agreement amongst scholars, it is that the most generally accepted belief is that it is a parable.

150

Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Sun, Sep 16, 15:25

Rich man and Lazarus parable...

The context shows Jesus was getting in a dig at the expense of the pharisees. The parable means that those who appeared spiritually rich [the pharisees] would shortly be switching places with the beggars [common people] who used to feed on the scraps dropped by these 'spiritually rich' ones. Soon the common man would accept Christianity and come into a favored spiritual condition while the pharisees would lose their favored position.

There is no reason to think this story is literal. Rich people are not evil and 'damned to hell'. Poor people do not merit paradise by virtue of their poverty. A drop of water would be of no use in a fiery furnace.

Interestingly in Jeremiah 7:31 in discussing some Judeans who had taken up the religious practice of putting children thru the fire [Molech worship] God said...in order to burn their sons and daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart

So some are accussing God of inventing this thing that revolted him and that had not even occurred to him to do.

151

Lockhart
ID: 564212815
Sun, Sep 16, 15:26

"Our way of life" includes both religion and sports among other things. Our "Way of Life" also is the the right to choose all, some or none of these endeavors so long as we adhere to our laws. So all of you are right, though each of you has a different way of dealing with our present events.
Sports and Religions are not the problem, human beings are the problem. Humans tend not to understand or refuse to acknowledge that each of us is an individual with a unique thought process. Some of us need Sports to cope, and some of us need Religion to cope, others may choose other outlets to cope. In hindsight, most of us need BOTH. Dan (Old)

152

Pilewort
Donor
ID: 347142619
Sun, Sep 16, 15:27

sarge wrote:

"Christians as a whole, have no more lock on 'good' than any other group. Nor does membership in any church I know of, preclude a person from being a horses-ass."

Sarge, surely you don't think that divine elevation in the Islamic world via gratuitous homicide makes much sense. I know nowhere in the tenants of Christianity where dying in the name of one's cause, or killing for the sake of killing, elevates one to salvation?

Also, NOT belonging to a church doesn't guarantee one not being a horses ass.

153

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 13613719
Sun, Sep 16, 15:47

Funny, when I gave this thread it's title, I didn't suspect any of the things that some may find offensive to be that I am off topic. Sorry puckprophet, even though I hardly fit the description of those you malign, as I am certainly no "Bible thumper".

I am curious what you mean - that you are "just not into it". Are you telling us that you are not someone who believes in god and therefore not interested in reading the varying opinions and disagreements of those who are? I don't think that's what you mean at all.

That you are frustrated over us getting in your way of talking fantasy baseball in this time of world tragedy (which I find revolting by the way - in case you hadn't figured that out yet) seems to indicate that such discussions fail to interest you sufficiently enough for you to lend much time to them, even though they may spark some intelligent, rational or dare I even say emotionally uplifting thoughts in your head. Perhaps you are simply afraid to acknowledge the issue?

It's a shame you do not even attempt to exhibit the inner realization it must take you to understand what is happening enough to want to read through and participate in a discussion that seems so important to those who's opinions you obviously place so much faith in other subjects... like fantasy baseball. I naturally assume you are lacking in such understanding because we have clearly arrived at a time here on Earth when the questions of religion, salvation and general theology must come up to believers and non-believers alike. It certainly has here, among so many who know one another fairly well yet have never expressed their views on such subjects before - and you fail to see the significance.

Perhaps I am being harsh. Perhaps you are so affected by what has taken place that you are tired of contemplating it. Have you blasted other Roto Guru threads inspired by thoughts arising from what happened Tuesday? I have not checked.

154

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 13613719
Sun, Sep 16, 15:57

Pilewort, I would tend to agree with Sarge's statement;
"Christians as a whole, have no more lock on 'good' than any other group. Nor does membership in any church I know of, preclude a person from being a horses-ass."

I cannot speak for him, but my guess is you miss his meaning. Christians are no more likely to be good than any other group or random sampling of people. Are Christians more good than Muslims? No. Jews? No.
And (pretty sure this drifts further from Sarge's point, but IMO) the Crusades and other aggressive/violent movements in the name of Christianity are/were no different. Pilewort, I fully understand and respect why and that you disagree. Excuse my butting in, but I felt it appropriate as that was the focal point of my original post and the initial topic of this thread.

155

Lutefisker
ID: 588561616
Sun, Sep 16, 17:17

Hmm... Here is where I get into trouble. :)

While I beleive that all people have their flaws, I honestly do believe that AS A WHOLE or ON THE AVERAGE that you are more likely to find good, moral and helpful people in places of Godly worship. The very fact that they are there tends to insinuate a search for what is just and good and right. The basic tenants that are taught in most religions is about being good, peaceful, loving, etc.

Surely it is not a LOCK that religious people who worship in religions that uplift that which is good and honorable will themselves be good and honorable and it is not a LOCK that non-religious people will be less good and honorable because they do not so worship, but there is a tendency for that to be the case, ON THE AVERAGE, due to the very nature of the choice to worship or not worship, fellowship or not fellowship and learn or not learn in such a setting.

156

F Gump
ID: 53837117
Mon, Sep 17, 01:45

LUTEFISKER (post 149)

The story that Jesus told may or may not have been a true story. The fact that it is not identified as a "parable" by Luke, as is done commonly with other stories, certainly allows for the idea that it could be a true story. "Scholars" are certainly on both sides of that question.

Regarding "Abraham's bosom", as I see it, it was a figurative term used to refer to that particular place of comfort and pleasure, where Abraham was also.

Regarding the "chasm", nowhere in the story does it say that God cannot cross it. It rather says that the chasm separates those in one location from those in the other, so that it is impossible for those in one place to move to the other. The rich man asks for Lazarus to come; Abraham says "he can't."

Regarding this story being in the context with the raising of Lazarus, it wasn't. Luke did not even write about the raising of Lazarus, either before or after this story. His readers would not have understood the reference to Lazarus' resurrection, since he never mentioned it.

Further, Lazarus who was raised would NOT have made a feasible reference for a "beggar." He was middle class at the least, owning a house and welcoming guests. In fact, Jesus visited there regularly as one of his havens.

The use of the same name also is not particularly indicative either. Duplicate names were common in those days. In fact, among the 12 chosen apostles, there were three sets of duplicate names (Simon, James, Judas) - Luke 6:14-16.

---------------------------------

There were a couple of items that you said in your post in which you misspoke. In the story about the mustard seed, Jesus does NOT say that the seed can or would move a mountain. In that story, Jesus used a mustard seed as a familiar example of something tiny. His point was that a small amount of "faith" even as small as a mustard seed was capable of doing unbelievable things. Whether or not the mountains that could be moved are to be taken literally or figuratively is debated, but the point is one regarding faith and its effects, either way.

Also, Lazarus was not the longest living human. After he was raised by Jesus, at some point he subsequently died no doubt. In the interim, he was a vivid living example of Jesus power over death, and his presence was one of the compelling reasons that the religious leaders were urged to drastic action to get rid of Jesus. After Jesus himself rose from the dead, His power over death was better illustrated by Himself than by Lazarus. My guess is that Lazarus was a member of the early Church during the time of the Book of Acts, and thus a physical reminder of the power of Jesus over death, but the Bible is silent on "what later became of Lazarus" and thus I am only speculating of course.

-------------------

CONCLUSION: In my view, the story of "the rich man and Lazarus" is one of real people. But even if it is not, I believe Jesus used it as an opportunity to give a vivid and accurate description of what hell/hades is like. Within that story, He had the opportunity to include accurate details of something that only He would know: and I believe He did, for our instruction.

BALDWIN (post 150)

Yes, I agree that Jesus was using this story to make a point to the Pharisees and religious leaders. But I also believe that, in His wisdom, He used a true story to do so - that would certainly be within His ability.

There is no indication of this within the context, but it is even POSSIBLE, if it was a true story, that the particular "rich man" and the particular "Lazarus" that Jesus speaks of were people whom the listeners KNEW.

As I said, whether or not the story is "true" or not is certainly a matter of opinion. But it could be. And I believe Jesus used this story to give us a glimpse of eternity.

157

Lutefisker
ID: 588561616
Mon, Sep 17, 02:34

F GUMP

I agree. Jesus COULD have been talking about a real place. But it is just as true that he MAY not have been. My point is that, as such, it is really hard to use such an ambiguous passage, that is not agreed upon by the experts, as PROOF that such a place exists.

I do apologize for mixing up Methusalah (sp?) with Lazarus. My point, however, was not affected by this error.

The point that I was trying to make was that Lazarus was a common Jewish name and was used by Jesus in the equivilent sense as one might use today if one is telling a story about some fictional character:

"Joe/Jim/George/Tom/Dick/Harry/etc was walking down the street one day and he came up to this newspaper stand and.... etc, etc,etc."

Regarding the mustard seed, I think that you have made my point beautifully. Please read your sentence exchanging the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man (which is in parenthesis) for the parable of the mustard seed WHICH IS IN CAPITALIZED LETTERS. I couldn't have said it better.

"In that story, Jesus used a MUSTARD SEED(discription of Hell) as a familiar example OF SOMETHING TINY (of someplace where bad people go). His point was that A SMALL AMOUNT OF "FAITH" (goodness towards others) even as small as a mustard seed was capable of DOING UNBELIEVABLE THINGS(putting one in the bosom of Abraham rather than in a place seperated from God). Whether or not THE MOUNTAINS THAT COULD BE MOVED(the bosom of Abraham and the place of seperation)are to be taken literally or figuratively is debated, but the point is one regarding faith and its effects, either way.

158

F Gump
ID: 53837117
Mon, Sep 17, 05:45

LUTEFISKER

I don't agree that your correlation holds up, in that the characteristic of the mustard seed that made the point (tininess) was accurate and familiar. "Hell" was not a "familiar" thing that Jesus could point to and talk about.

Nevertheless, if Jesus was merely "making a point" using "hell" (as he did about the tininess of the mustard seed), he would also use characteristics that are accurate regarding hell - and he uses flames, torment, etc. to draw his comparison from. Furthermore, His point was not that the rich man was decrying "separation from God" but rather that he was agonizing from flames and torment. Kinda hard to make such a point, if there are not any flames and torment, as I see it.

-----------------------

As to whether or not there is a literal heaven and a literal hell, there is no question that the Bible speaks of both, though the details are sketchy (in large part, I would think, because there are not people here who have been to either, to tell us about them!) But the hazy picture we are certainly left with is clearly of contrasting places, regardless of details: one of great reward and all the best, vs one of great punishment and condemnation. Regardless of what you choose to believe, that is the Biblical picture in general.

As for me, I believe that the few details that God HAS chosen to share with us, about both places, are for our education and understanding and should be taken as they are conveyed - including this passage here. With the relative paucity of information available to us, I do not believe that God would choose to confuse the picture with images that are not accurate, including this passage.

159

Lutefisker
ID: 588561616
Mon, Sep 17, 06:35

F GUMP - I agree. There is a great difference between the final destination of "heaven" and "hell".

It just seems to me that we, as Christians, spend far to much time accenting the negative rather than the positive. Personally, I do not think much of Hell because I am assured that I will not be going there. I do know several people, however, whose biggest hangup with Christianity is the concept of an unfair and vengeful God who would eternally punish people for what we supposedly less loving beings would not eternally punish people for. That does not make sense to them (and keeps them from knowing God better) nor does it make sense to me (but I do not let this keep me from knowing God or sharing my understanding of God with others - because I really believe that God has been misread on this matter).

As for heaven, I live in the assurance that it is better than my wildest imagination, and thus I spend little time trying to figure out what it is like because I do not wish to minimize its glory.

What I do have, and I have it now, is a walk with the Holy Spirit that is awesome and beyond discription even now. Oh for the day when that feeling of peace, love and joy that I feel when I pray in the Spirit can be eternal, without interuption and complete!!! That surely is heaven!!! And the absence of that feeling for an eternity is surely hell. Beyond that... Face it... neither you nor I know for sure.

160

sarge33rd
ID: 25818711
Mon, Sep 17, 07:00

Pilewort (#152): MITH hit the perverbial nail on the head in #154. I most certainly was NOT implying anything on behalf of the terrorists. Rather, I was saying simply (in my 'defense' as an Atheist) that participation in a Christian organization, does not by definition of the act, define one as a good human being. Nor does nonparticipation, make one automatically evil. Yes, there are good people in the Chrisitan segments of the population and yes, there are evil people in the non-Christian segments. As there are good and evil in any meaningful population sample.

161

Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Mon, Sep 17, 07:33

Did you miss the scripture in Jeremiah where God says it never even occurred to him to put children thru the fire?

Three reasons for the mistaken idea of a fiery place of torment/revenge...

"The fiery Gehenna" There was a valley surrounding Jerusalem where refuse was burned and that burned constantly. Noone was tortured here. The bodies of criminals who were executed were disposed of here as they were not fitting of 'memorial tombs' and this made a fitting anology of the stae of people who were not worthy of being remembered by God for a resurection later on.

The "lake of fire" mentioned in Revelation...This refers to the 'second death' where after one has been resurected and given a second chance he is then put to death this time with no hope of return. That this lake of fire is figurative is confirmed because death itself is thrown into this lake at the end of the thousand year reign.

But...but...the bible speaks of torment...the Greek word for torment is basanos which is the same word for a 'jailer'. So when the devil is 'tormented there forever' it means there will be no relief for him, he will be restrained or 'jailed' in death forever.

Do not continue to accuse God of cruel and unusual punishment. We who are made in his image would not punish our disobedient child by putting their hand on a stove and God himself in Jer 7:31 shows it is just as unthinkable an idea for him.

162

Judge Mental
ID: 5688147
Mon, Sep 17, 07:37

Aaaargh! I leave this thread for the weekend and it turns into a bible study!!

Just kidding, yesterday was sunday, after all. ;-)

Once again, I am impressed by the depth of the discussions here and the strength of opinions offered.

But where are the rest of the closet atheists out there who don't dare to speak up? I have "faith" that there are a heck of a lot more of us out there than the vocal "moral majority" would like to think.

What strikes me most about the discussions above are the wide variety of interpretations of the bible, although common themes are strong throughout. This only reinforces my skepticism. Some of you are gonna be real sorry if you were off by just a notch in what you believed.

"But St. Peter, you mean all I had to do was eat fish on fridays and I would've gotten in? Gosh darn it!"

Sort of like losing a game in overtime, that's gotta hurt even more. At least I know it won't be a close call in my case.

I saw evolution mentioned a few times above. That's another fun one to debate, but that's also another 150 posts, at least. (Evolution theory has its holes, but please don't try to tell me the earth is only 6,000 years old). ;-P

163

F Gump
ID: 53837117
Mon, Sep 17, 09:18

BALDWIN

I can discuss with you the exact theological details and significance of Gehenna, Sheol, Hades, Hell, the lake of fire, etc etc, and do exegesis of each of the texts in detail. And there is more than ample Biblical support for the concept of a fiery eternity for those who do not put their faith in Christ, whether you want to accept it or not. But, we then will bog down in the details of a theological discussion that is not suited for these boards. So I will not wander there.

Since you asked again, though, I will respond to the passage in Jeremiah. Jeremiah 7:31 is CLEARLY speaking of something entirely different than the concept of "eternal judgment."
The pagan peoples that surrounded Israel were practicing HUMAN SACRIFICE (burning their children to death on altars) as a religious ritual. When the Israelites adopted this pagan practice, God condemned it here in no uncertain terms. The entire chapter, for those of you who wish to read the verse in context, is Jeremiah's condemnation of the people of Israel who had forsaken obedience to God's instructions, and substituted their own "methods" for pleasing Him.

God does not punish those who are His ""children" by eternal death or eternal punishment of any kind, that is true. The punishments in hades/hell are reserved for those who are NOT born of God as His children, in a spiritual sense.

As to the concept of "torment"...

A "jailer" as we know them (one who merely confined) was referred to by a completely different word: desmophulax. "Desmo" is the root, and from it are various uses that all revolve around the concept of binding, or being bound. To bind, strings, bonds, jailer, prison, prisoner: all of these come from that same root and concept. If the author who spoke of a "tormentor" wished to use the concept of a "jailer', this is the word he would have used.

Basanos is a completely different word, and I can find nowhere in the New Testament where it is used of jailer or restrainer. Basanos is used of physical discomfort and pain: such a concept is supported repeatedly by its use throughout the New Testament: you cannot get the concept of mere "restraint" from its common use. For those who are not theologians and wish to look for themselves at where it is used, look for the use of the word "torment" or similar in the following passages and see how the idea of physical suffering/distress is contained within that word: Matthew 4:24, 8:6, 8:29, 18:34, Mark 5:7, Luke 8:28, 16:23, 16:28, Rev. 9:5, 11:10, 12:2 ("pained"), 14:10-11, 18:7, 18:10, 18:15, 20:10.

Thus, when the text speaks of "torment" in regards to eternity for Satan and the unsaved, it is INDEED speaking very clearly of painful punishment, just as we would think.

164

F Gump
ID: 53837117
Mon, Sep 17, 09:26

LUTEFISKER (post 159)

Well-stated and well-taken. To have an assurance of eternity with God is all the difference, and the relationship with Him in this life has far more significance and reward than mere "fire insurance". Very excellent and meaningful point.

165

F Gump
ID: 53837117
Mon, Sep 17, 09:33

JUDGE MENTAL

You are taken aback by the amount of Biblical dicussion that has occurred here. Just be glad, then, that you did NOT respond to my post 110 (did you really want those concepts of yours in 72 responded to Biblically?) with a "yes". *LOL*

My offer to answer what you asked is still open, of course. *grin*

166

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Mon, Sep 17, 09:55

Re post 162 and evolution as it pertains to the topic of religion;
I recommend those of you who are interested to read through another New York Times/Abuzz thread entitled, "Macro-evolution; should this be taught as fact?". Some of the participants have theological and or medical degrees and much of the thread is way over my head, but it is quite fascinating and informative nevertheless. It also includes links to some great articles and other debates on related topics.
I believe that in order to read through or participate (though this thread has probably been dormant for some time and some of the original participants may not appreciate it's renewal as there was considerable animosity expressed there) you will have to register with Abuzz. Once registered, you should be able to find the discussion by it's title, but in case that doesn't work, here's a direct link to it:
Macro Evolution Debate

167

Ender
ID: 52438315
Mon, Sep 17, 10:15

MITH, 404 error when I try the link.

168

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Mon, Sep 17, 10:27

Ender,
You are registered with Abuzz?
If so, try this: Macro-evolution discussion. If that still doesn't work, try going to "my abuzz". At that page, type in quotes (cap sensitive) "Macro-evolution" in the "find" field they offer near the top middle of the page.
It should be the 5th (or so) result. If that still doesn't work, there are other ways in, let me know.

169

Judge Mental
ID: 5688147
Mon, Sep 17, 10:28

F Gump,

Please treat my questions as rhetorical ones. Please.

*Grins back*

Though I would enjoy opening that can of worms some other day (my head has nearly recovered) I don't think I could handle it on a monday.

Thank you for asking and not prosthyletizing.

170

Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Mon, Sep 17, 12:09

F Gump

If the author who spoke of a "tormentor" wished to use the concept of a "jailer', this is the word he would have used. Basanos is a completely different word, and I can find nowhere in the New Testament where it is used of jailer or restrainer - F Gump

You have to look no further than the parable of the slave who was forgiven a large debt in Matt 18:34 where his master, provoked to wrath, delivered him up to the jailors [ basanos ].

Another Greek word is also used to describe the eventuality of the wicked. As an example in Matt 25:46 'These shall go away into everlasting punishment [Kolosin]

Does this signify eternal pain? A footnote in the Emphatic Diaglot lists these potential meanings...

1)cutting off...pruning
2)to restrain, to repress
3)to chastise, to punish

Clearly it would be wrong to quote this passage and say this proves eternal pain given these other greek meanings for the original word.

171

Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Mon, Sep 17, 12:23

F Gump

As to your take on Jeremiah 7:31...

It may be talking about something very different...Molech worship, as I stated however it is still actually putting your own children into a fiery furnace.

It is very deft of you to point out that the wicked are not God's children in a sense, they are not his spiritual children, but they are very much his physical children since he is the creator of all things. We would not put a disobedient childs hand on a stove or beat on even our worst enemy literally forever even if we could.

God does not put his children in a fiery furnace, not even the really really bad ones. Passing children thru a fire is a thot that had never even occured to him.

172

Lutefisker
ID: 588561616
Mon, Sep 17, 13:00

Baldwin... It is nice to chat with you again :)

Thanks for the Jeremiah 7:31 qoute. I had not read that before, or more correctly had not put it in context. :)

God bless. :)

173

F Gump
ID: 53837117
Mon, Sep 17, 14:42

JUDGE MENTAL

Understood. And I do indeed have "answers", but no desire to foist them upon those who are not asking questions! *LOL*

BALDWIN

RE Matt 18:34 ...The text here is translated variously as "handed him over to the scourgers" (Modern Language Bible of 1959), "delivered him to the tormentors" (King James), "sent the man to the torture chamber" (Living Bible), "delivered him to the jailer" (RSV), "turned him over to the jailers to be tortured" (NIV), "turned him over to the official torturers" (Williams), "sent the man to prison" (New Living Bible)...

According to Vine's Expository Dictionary, basanistes (used here, the noun form of the root) is a term that is properly "a torturer", or "one who elicits information by torture."

Thus the picture in Matt 18 is that of a man being turned over to tortured slavery, with whippings and beatings by the "tormentor/jailer/torturer" spurring him to work to get his debt paid through slave labor as quickly as possible.

To say that the concept of torture or punishment is NOT in view in Matthew 18:34 would certainly be disputed by most of the translators/translations. It is hard to put that sort of meaning (a mere "jailer") on a word that was used to denote torture or those who inflicted it, especially when there is a common word for "jailer" as we think of it that could have been used but was not. To derive any OTHER meaning (besides an infliction of pain) to the word must DEMAND a clear indication otherwise within a context, since "torture" or "infliction of pain" is clearly the idea that the term is used to convey.
---------------------------

RE the concept of "who is a child of God": it is a Biblical concept that the general Fatherhood of God (as Creator) does NOT convey a special familial status with God thereby. The oft-used concept of Fatherhood of God since He is our Creator, the Brotherhood of Man as His creation, and all of us as one big earth family is really not a Biblical concept at all, especially in the way it is primarily bandied about. It is not "deft wordsmanship" on my part to underscore that fact, but rather a recitation of what the Biblical message is. John 1:12 clearly indicates that it takes action in "receiving Him [Jesus as our Savior]" if we are to BECOME "children of God" in that familial sense. John 3 also talks about the spiritual birth that God requires of us.

Further, later in the same Gospel the very concept of God's attitude toward those non-children is addressed. John states that "the wrath of God abides on" those who do not believe in the Son (John 3:36).

Have you seen the deep anger that has been expressed by those directly affected by the terrorist bombings? Now imagine what sort of anger an Almighty God would be capable of. And imagine this anger not going away, but remaining. The reason? Because Jesus willingly gave His life as a substitute for them, and they will not put their trust in that brutal horrendous sacrifice that He lovingly made of Himself. To God, that is the equivalent of spitting in His face, and His anger will rest upon those who do so.

"Sinners in the Hands of An Angry God" is how Jonathan Edwards phrased it. It may not be the nice thing to mention, and it may make us squeamish to contemplate, but God indeed will punish those who reject the substitutionary death of Jesus as payment for their sins; and, alternatively, He will freely grant eternal life with Him to those who ACCEPT that gift. That is what the Bible says: and each of us must choose for ourselves what we will do with that choice.

174

Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Mon, Sep 17, 15:17

F Gump

But of course nothing in the context shows that this slave was tortured rather that 'jailed'. The word clearly has two posible meanings as the New Living Bible plainly translates it jail. You may embellish away over how bad it must have been in that slaves prison cell in your fevered imagination but you cannot prove the point from the word basanos.

If words such as basanos and kolosin have several meanings and one conforms to my interpretation and one conforms to yours you cannot appeal simply to those words to prove your point.

Thank you very much but I understand what it means to be a spiritual child of God. You are still accusing God of passing his physical children, people he created, thru the fire. A concept that had never occured to God.

And I always talking with you Lutefisker. 8]

175

puckprophet
ID: 52712723
Mon, Sep 17, 15:36

sorry to have offended some of you yesterday , i have as much misplaced anger as the next guy. peace.

176

The_Mentors
ID: 9432248
Mon, Sep 17, 15:49

Religions missiles

178

F Gump
ID: 53837117
Mon, Sep 17, 16:43

BALDWIN

Maybe you miss my point: more likely, I was not clear enough when I stated it before. What tells me that the slave in Matt 18 was "tortured" was the use of the word basanos (or, basanistes) itself to refer to who was in charge of him.

When we started this discussion, I thought that "torture(r)" (or the concept of pain, and its infliction) appeared as a more common meaning, since you had said it also meant jailer/restrainer; but as I research, I have found that "torture(r)" is actually the ONLY sense of this word.

I have looked back through all the lexicons, exegetical dictionaries, and exegetical commentaries (ie, those that examine the text from the original to ascertain its intended meaning) since we started this discussion and all of them UNANIMOUSLY state that the word basanos (and related words) have the idea of infliction of pain as the meaning. Mere confinement or restraint is NOT a possible meaning. The only type of jailer to whom "basanistes" referred was the torturer. So indeed, you might be able to use the word "jailer", but it was a JAILER WHO TORTURED PEOPLE. Only.

This meaning is the same throughout all of Greek literature, wherever the term is used. Abbott-Smith's Lexicon of New Testament Greek, which is the generally acknowledged standard, defines "basanistes" as "a torturer, used of a jailer" and "basanos" as "examination by torture", or "torture/torment".

The New Living Bible tells where he went (prison), but it obviously does not convey in English the full sense of what was written in Greek.

-----------------------

One last reply to your parting Jeremiah 7 allusion: you said that punishment by fire was "a concept that had never occured to God." As I said earlier, Jeremiah was rather stating that such a form of WORSHIP was not conceived of by God. There is no reference here, one way or the other, as to whether such PUNISHMENT was something that God would ever utilize. It was the idea of "worship by human sacrifice in fire" that God had never conceived of, nor desired in any way.

179

Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Mon, Sep 17, 17:07

So basically by your reading God was saying 'What are you doing, stop stop, where in the ouchie gouchie did you ever get the idea to put your children thru the flames, here let me do that.'

No matter how I might like to keep this as polite and civil as posible I just cannot respect that POV.

180

Lutefisker
ID: 588561616
Mon, Sep 17, 23:43

F GUMP...With your arguement regarding Matthew 18:34, I would like to thank you for giving one of the strongest arguements for purgatory that I have ever heard.

Matthew 18:34-35 "And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, TIL HE SHOULD PAY ALL THAT WAS DUE UNTO HIM. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brothers their trespasses."

Obviously, in the strictest literal sense of the word, the punishment will only continue for a time.

181

F Gump
ID: 53837117
Tue, Sep 18, 05:46

BALDWIN

I will just have to agree to disagree with you and move on, then. Though I don't like your "paraphrase" and it doesn't exactly convey what I think is being written in Jeremiah, I accept your concept of disgust at what I believe God has told us. My sense is that it is what the Bible says, and as such I believe I am forced to accept it as is.

LUTEFISKER

The concept of purgatory would be a good parallel if (a) the Bible explicitly mentioned such a place or concept, and (b) we had the capacity/ability to pay for our own sins. I don't think the Bible supports either idea, even in this passage in Matt 18. (SIDE NOTE: The debt mentioned in this passage, in today's dollars, was in excess of a BILLION dollars - thus, at slave wages, it could never be repaid. The command to be a tortured slave til it was repaid would have been a permanent punishment as a result: he could not even keep up with interest on the debt.)

Additionally (and even more importantly) I also think that, if sin were something that we somehow had the ability to pay for on our own, that Jesus would never have had to die. Yet He did: there was no other way.

To discuss the theological concepts involved will be a long detailed road here, and lead to many side issues. It is wiser, I think, if we do our own study on what the Bible says about these things rather than begin what would be a lengthy and eventually sometimes acrimonious discussion in many more areas.

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