Forum: base
Page 11350
Subject: todays News and Views (9/14)

  Posted by: ChicagoTRS - Sustainer [4324316] Fri, Sep 14, 10:25
Time to start a new thread for today...

Topic for debate: Racial Profiling. Has your feeling on Racial Profiling changed because of the weeks events? In the past few years racial profiling has been a no-no but for law enforcement it plain and simply can be a very effective tool.
Everyone is saying how alarms should have went off when a bunch middle eastern men applied for flight training but if this 'war' would have never happenned and law enforcement would have investigated every middle eastern person who applied for flight training there probably would have been a hundred law suits from people saying their rights were being violated because they were just being targeted because of their race.

Personally I believe the american publics view on this subject has been changed. I believe this country has become far too liberal in the past years. Everyone has to be politically correct. I blame a lot of this on the media. The media was so concerned with investigating our law enforcement agencies and targeting them with what they are doing wrong and how they are violating peoples rights that it made them less effective in their jobs.

Anyone have any thoughts?
 
1saber34
      ID: 41338116
      Fri, Sep 14, 10:34 		I think maybe we should do extensive back ground checks on students and others IF have not become citizens of this country. Our rights are here for us! Not others!

Liberals and the Media in general don't really care about the well being of people. They are concerned with playing the devils advocate and nit picking about every rule and regulation out there. I'm sorry, I'm not a racists. But in general when I've stereo typed a person. I've been correct about them about 90% of the time. This isn't just racial - I know plenty of white trash. In fact I'm in a disadvantage in that I live in a 95% caucasian area of the country. And the fact is out of the 10 black people I've worked with 8 of them are very trustworthy and successful persons. (I didn't stereo type as lazy and dumb colored people either. They presented themselves to be just as they were)
 
2biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Fri, Sep 14, 10:38 		What a load of horse manure.

Police with unlimited powers working for a dictatorial regime are extremely effective in their jobs. Do we want that? I don't.

My father is a "middle eastern person" who happens to know how to fly (he flew for the U.S. AirForce, in fact). Would you have locked him up Monday?

He also used to hold high level security clearance (he built lasers for SDI), but gave it up because the FBI kept showing up in his office harassing him. I don't think we have become too liberal. I think the opposite.
 
3patjams
      ID: 22858138
      Fri, Sep 14, 10:42 		I'm sure that, in the wake of the attack, the FAA will regulate flight schools and their applicants. This is still a subject where we should tread very lightly. If you begin to profile middle eastern men applying for flight school, then what's to stop you from profiling black men traveling in expensive cars? We cannot allow these attacks to sabotage the fabric of our nation as it applies to the treatment of our citizens. (One solution could be to allow only true citizens of the U.S. to undertake certain things within our borders. (i.e. flight training school))
 
4ivan
      ID: 27831149
      Fri, Sep 14, 10:47 		i had heard (on the news this week) that everyone who appiles for flight school is checked out, these guy's checks came back clean. there is quite simply nothing more can be done under the current set of rules.

this is the beauty and the weakness of freedom, you have the choice and the right to become anything. i'm more than certain that there are plenty of islamic pilots that attended these schools that would never contemplate these kind of actions.

and as far as mob rule chasing down anyone who may appear to be from the mid east - that is beyond the pale af far as i'm concerned.

as far as profiling goes, i guess i've always supported it, as it is an effective law enforcement tool, if used properly.

disclaimer - by this i don't mean simple harrasment at traffic stops ect. ect.
 
5Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Fri, Sep 14, 10:48 		Black men in expensive cars are already profiled every day, and have been for as long as there have been expensive cars.
 
6The_Mentors
      ID: 9432248
      Fri, Sep 14, 10:52 		What about all the Middle Eastern people in this country right now who's visa has expired etc..Should we remove these people? The hijackers had expired visas.
 
7costanza
      ID: 308531410
      Fri, Sep 14, 10:53 		Did we not learn anything from the WW2 internments?

Oh, and patjams, please tell me I'm mis-interpreting what you mean by "true citizens"...
 
8The_Mentors
      ID: 9432248
      Fri, Sep 14, 10:55 		What about all the Middle Eastern people in this country right now who's visa has expired etc..Should we remove these people? The hijackers had expired visas.
 
9ChicagoTRS
      Sustainer
      ID: 44753816
      Fri, Sep 14, 10:57 		I am not exactly saying it is right but I am trying to point out how two-faced the media is...the media would have been the first in line to decry how terrible and how wrong our law enforcement is for investigating people based on their race before this event occurred. Now they are the first in line to say how the intelligence community failed and should have seen all of this coming because of these peoples race and them applying for flight training. I don't think you can have it both ways?

Personally I feel this is a very tricky subject...we live in a very free society and people normally in this country do not want to put up with a lot of inconviences and want to be free and often resent anyones attempt to make this a more secure place to live and do not want their privacy interupted or inconvienced etc... This is exactly what makes us so vulnerable to these terrorists. Personally I love our freedom and I understand that it does make us vulnerable. I don't think I would want to give up many of the freedoms we enjoy today.

I think it is a delicate balance. On one hand everyone wants to be 100% free and never be hassled and on the other hand people want to be 100% secure and safe. I don't think the two are possible together...you may have to give up some freedoms to have a more secure safe society.

I am not saying a police state but maybe if you apply for a pilots license you have to pass a background check, or if you want to buy a gun you have to pass a background check, or the lines at airports and train stations are going to get much longer and you will have to go through more rigorous searches and screening, you may no longer be able to pay cash for certain items anymore, you may have to show ID much more often to enter events, your bags may be serached more often when entering public places...are we ready to give up some of these freedoms we have come to expect? Are we ready for this?

 
10Dan
      Donor
      ID: 45054169
      Fri, Sep 14, 11:01 		Wow, RCMP estimate between 75,000 and 100,000 people are out in front of the parliment buildings in Ottawa for the ceremony. Just wanted to share once again the amount of support we are giving are good friends down south in light of this great tragedy.
 
11patjams
      ID: 22858138
      Fri, Sep 14, 11:02 		costanza, I suppose I mean if you are not a citizen of the U.S. then maybe you should not be allowed certain privileges.
 
12steve houpt
      ID: 208461016
      Fri, Sep 14, 11:05 		You don't even have to be a pilot to pay for training in and to use a flight simulator.

If I had $15,000 to blow and wanted to fool around in a simulator for a few hours, I could.
 
13Cleveland Fan
      Donor
      ID: 294172211
      Fri, Sep 14, 11:06 		I'm a "liberal" who cares very much about the well being of people. Your prejudiced is not unique. Most people like you always add "some of my best friends are..." Heard it all before. All four of my grandparents came from Lebanon, should I be sent back or banned from getting a pilot's license? Wake up and smell the coffee.
 
14slammer
      ID: 407261110
      Fri, Sep 14, 11:07 		I keep hearing about all the money and effort that should be used regarding air travel safety. I agree with that, but will airlines be the next method that a terrorist will use? I would think not. How are we to combat, and what resources should we expend, to address the next "unknown". Scary stuff...
 
156-9 With The Afro
      ID: 97969
      Fri, Sep 14, 11:08 		I wanted to post this in todays thread. Again, it is a follow-up on the Xinoehpoel postings which were reported to the FBI by some Gurupies and a lot of other people. This is just something I'm sharing I'm not claiming it to be fact/accurate - just interesting. The source is from bootysmack.com so please just take away from it what you will.

Xinoehpoel follow-up
 
16steve houpt
      ID: 208461016
      Fri, Sep 14, 11:11 		Dan - watching service in Ottawa on C-Span 2.

C-Span also had some CBC and BBC coverage on late last night and early this morning. Was refreshing to watch their coverage.

Can't watch CNN when Paula Zahn is on. Hard to take the morning fanatics on FOX.
 
17ChicagoTRS
      Sustainer
      ID: 44753816
      Fri, Sep 14, 11:12 		If you do not believe in racial profiling at all and you want a more secure society then that means you need to make the choice to subject everyone to the same level of security and hassle and we may all need to give up some freedoms.

It is well and good that we should investigate and find people with expired Visas...that may work this time but don't you think that the terrorists will adapt very quickly to this? Next time they may very well become american citizens before they make their attack or not have expired Visas or simply enter the country illegally with stolen identities. These people are like a virus...they will adapt and change to our security...this is going to be a very difficult war and there probably will be more deaths on our soil.

My feeling is we need to go strong against each and every identified terrorist organization and the countries that support them and allow them to recruit, train, and operate freely in their countries. These terrorist organizations will still probably exist but it will make it much more difficult to operate. But I also believe this will step up the attacks against us in the short term and more americans may die. I do still believe we need to go after them very strongly now and then continue the effort for years to come. These organizations are only going to get stronger and more sophisticated and deadly in the years to come if we do not take an aggressive offensive strike first mentality now. We need to have the same resolve against them that they seems to have against us. I believe it is time to go on the offensive and stay on the offensive.
 
18The_Mentors
      ID: 9432248
      Fri, Sep 14, 11:15 		Slammer;
It is scary right? What is next? They killed 10,000 people with box cutters...
 
19steve houpt
      ID: 208461016
      Fri, Sep 14, 11:16 		ChicagoTRS - It's a no win subject. You can't even mention it. Not many will really read what you wrote. You are already being accused of wanting to deport US citizens.
 
20biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Fri, Sep 14, 11:27 		I read what he wrote. He advocates profiling and decreasing our already under seige civil liberties in the name of dubiously increasing security. He will likely get what he wants.

But he said it himself: "...don't you think that the terrorists will adapt very quickly to this?"

Yes, I do. I doubt anything we do, any billions we spend, will be able to stop a truly dedicated terrorist.

Our freedoms will continue to erode until the things we are fighting for (like freedom) will no longer exist as we knew them. This is a far greater danger, imho.

As I have stated before, the key to a more secure US is to address the root REASONS for this hatred against us over the long run. And yes, I feel we should blow up (or whatever) Bin Laden (if he, as I believe, is responsible) first.
 
21ChicagoTRS
      Sustainer
      ID: 44753816
      Fri, Sep 14, 11:27 		I do not mean to offend anyone...basically just throwing out some points for debate and throwing out some ideas people may not have considered.
 
22patjams
      ID: 22858138
      Fri, Sep 14, 11:34 		Her are some things that somebody sent me. Obviously someone had too much time on thier hands.

The date of the attack: 9/11 - 9 + 1 + 1 = 11

September 11th is the 254th day of the year: 2 + 5 + 4 = 11

After September 11th there are 111 days left to the end of the year.

119 is the area code to Iraq/Iran. 1 + 1 + 9 = 11

Twin Towers - standing side by side, looks like the number 11

The first plane to hit the towers was Flight 11

State of New York - The 11th State added to the Union

New York City - 11 Letters

Afghanistan - 11 Letters

The Pentagon - 11 Letters

Ramzi Yousef - 11 Letters (convicted of orchestrating the attack on the WTC in 1993)

Flight 11 - 92 on board - 9 + 2 = 11

Flight 77 - 65 on board - 6 + 5 = 11

Still no word on what the significance of 11 is.

 
23ChicagoTRS
      Sustainer
      ID: 44753816
      Fri, Sep 14, 11:35 		billi...you are correct that is where I see a lot of this leading...loss of a lot of the freedoms we have taken for granted. Personally I do not want to give up too many of our freedoms.

I advocate not only going after Bin Laden but going after all of the other know terrorist organizations. I think whether Bin Laden was responsible for what happenned this week is really an unimportant point. We do know he blew up two of our embassies and the USS Cole...that is enough for me to go after him strong. Other organizations we should target...the jihad...hezbulah...etc...who cares if they have done anything to us recently we do know what they are all about...also go after the countries that support them Iran, Iraq, Aphganistan, Syria, Palistine, etc...
 
24steve houpt
      ID: 208461016
      Fri, Sep 14, 11:35 		Chicago TRS - criminal profiling, yes. Racial profiling, no.

I have heard this plot may have started 5 years ago. Like a lifelong spy planted in FBI or CIA. Hard to track.

But some were on terrorist hit lists and were here illegally. Had just crossed in a few days ago. But hit lists were only bounced against trans continental flights.

Just not much you can do except try and enforce INS laws.

You also could make cockpits permantly locked. No coffee, no food, no bathroom. Don't think that will work.

And on NY to Tokyo, there are two crews (or one and a half - ? just one relief pilot). Have to open it up to swap out.
 
25Matt S
      Donor
      ID: 57543213
      Fri, Sep 14, 11:37 		An estimated 75,000 people gathered just now at Parliament Hill in Ottawa for 3 minutes of silence. Prior to the silence, Prime Minister Cretien declared officially, that Canada will offer full support and help for whatever American action is taken place.

Looks like I'm going to war...
Matt S
 
26Judge Mental
      ID: 5688147
      Fri, Sep 14, 11:37 		I too read what you wrote and I'm glad you wrote it. It comes down to a cost/benefit analysis for me. In a country as diverse as ours, are we willing to implement such restrictions on freedom to certain segments of the population? And where do you draw the line? The same rules should apply to all, or you just don't draw the line at all, IMO. Some of the opinions offered here are a bit too Buchanan-esque for me. Building a wall around the country is not the answer.

The costs to our freedom would be too high, even if it does mean more terrorist attacks. We need to seek other, less costly solutions.

Increasing our intelligence capabilities, bettering relations around the world, and stamping out Bin Ladin and his terrorist ilk are some other options that do not impinge on our freedoms.
 
27The_Mentors
      ID: 9432248
      Fri, Sep 14, 11:39 		Steve;
You also COULD make cockpits permantly locked. With coffee, food and a bathroom. Also a door that could not be kicked down. They are supposed to be locked in for a reason.
 
28ChicagoTRS
      Sustainer
      ID: 44753816
      Fri, Sep 14, 11:43 		Steve...so lets say we secure our airports and airlines so they are nearly impossible to hijack and impossible to repeat this weeks events...that is great but do you believe that will solve the problem?

The terrorists will simply adapt and find new ways to kill us...whats next? Biological attacks? Chemical attacks? Simply hijacking a fuel truck and driving it into the side of a building or landmark? How about hijacking a fuel tanker with millions of gallons of fuel and sinking it in NY harbor?

People say lets understand why they hate us and fix it that way...plain and simply they hate us because we support Israel. I do not think there is anything we can really do about this. These people want to exterminate Israel...we are not going to stand by and let them do this and we are going to support Israel. There does not seem to be any middle ground here?

 
29The_Mentors
      ID: 9432248
      Fri, Sep 14, 11:45 		Judge:
"bettering relations around the world"
Agreed, but how but less involvment in the Middle East?
Why do we need to stick our nose everywhere?
 
30costanza
      ID: 398461411
      Fri, Sep 14, 11:46 		patjams, I'm glad I did indeed mis-interpret what you meant by "true citizen". It seemed odd to me that the qualifier "true" appeared there, as it seemed to imply that there are different types of citizens, and that perhaps those of Middle Eastern descent weren't considered "true" citizens. My apologies for thinking that might've been your intention.
 
31Judge Mental
      ID: 5688147
      Fri, Sep 14, 11:49 		TM -- I have to agree with you there, especially where Israel/Palestine are concerned.
 
32steve houpt
      ID: 208461016
      Fri, Sep 14, 11:57 		Chicago TRS - no.

I look at this like the first time someone used the statue of liberty play in football. We will stop this from happening again and terrorist will look for other weak spots.

How do we completely stop them. Don't know if we can. But we can make it tough for those that try and support them.

Will that get them to stop hating us? Doubt it. They don't like our freedom, our power, our economic wealth and who knows what else.

We can't make everyone wealthy and free. Is our only other option for all of us to become poor, give up our freedom and be led by a terrorist. Would that make them happy?

So they can hate me for the way I live.
 
33ChicagoTRS
      Sustainer
      ID: 44753816
      Fri, Sep 14, 11:57 		I think it all comes down to the following points:

#1 We need to increase and better fund our intelligence community.

#2 We do need to raise the security at our airports, public events, landmarks, etc...

#3 We need to rethink the way we issue visa's and possibly make it more difficult or better funded so there is more investigative powers.

#4 We need to go on the military and intelligence offensive against terrorists.

#5 We need to go on the military and diplomatic offensive against countries known to harbor terrorists.

#6 We need to understand and use diplomacy to try and have better relations with these people (at some point after exterminating the known terrorists)

#7 We need to realize this is a war and treat it exactly that way.

The feeling I have got out of our government is the above is exactly what will happen and right now we do seem to have very strong international backing and support. I just hope the american people do continue to support these actions and don't forget what happenned this week and don't think it couldn't happen again. We are at war.
 
34Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 488481411
      Fri, Sep 14, 12:05 		No one in this country advocates 100% freedom. That's a red herring. We all realize the responsibilities of citizenship, even if we differ on what those responsibilities might be.

Better security at airports, better border patrols and INS checking, more secure cockpits are all reasonable and expected reactions.

These terrorists attacked not buildings and planes, but a way of life. Blaming the attacks on liberals and the ACLU is doing the job of the terrorists by introducing division in our pluralistic society. We strongly believe that it is in our differences that we are strong. Don't let terrorists take that away from you!

Bili, right on!

pd
 
35The_Mentors
      ID: 9432248
      Fri, Sep 14, 12:18 		I read 3 men in NJ were seen celebrating after the attacks on the WTC. They were taken into custody and found to have expired Visa's. I.N.S. is deporting them back to Saudi Arabia.

They live in our country and hate us so terribly that they celebrate the deaths of thousands of people. Why? What did we do?
 
36patjams
      ID: 22858138
      Fri, Sep 14, 12:23 		Freedom of Speech or not, they received a fitting punishment for their actions. Hopefully they are put at the bottom of the list (permanently) for Visa renewal.
 
37Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 488481411
      Fri, Sep 14, 12:25 		A good question, Mentors. They don't even realize that the freedoms of this country that they are attacking (and used to attack us) also gives them the freedom to celebrate as they did.

A diversity of opinion is not something Islamic fundamentalists are real keen on.

pd
 
38ChicagoTRS
      Sustainer
      ID: 4324316
      Fri, Sep 14, 12:27 		I think what we did is get involved in a conflict that is literally 1000s of years old. I think there is little we can do to solve the problem? Israel is one of our #1 allies and they are probably the #1 reason we are being targeted now. These people have been fighting forever I do not think there is much we can do to stop that. There basically is no middle ground between the two sides. I think another problem is the middle east is the main oil supplier in the world so unfortunately we have a lot of national and economic interest in this region of the world. I am not sure what we can do diplomatically that will make any lasting difference in this region. The problems there span too many generations and are far too deep.

We could probably become isolationists and change our role in the world? Personally I like the role we have taken in the world as leaders. Think of all of the good we have accomplished in the past 20 years. Should we have really let Saddam run right through Kuwait...he would probably be taking over another country by now. Should we let the other middle eastern countries go to war with Israel? Unfortunately our leadership role and success as a society makes us a target.
 
39Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 488481411
      Fri, Sep 14, 12:33 		Actually, Chicago TRS, the use of terrorism as a political tool is relatively new. While it was a part of wars in the past between states, its use by non-state political organizations can be traced to the last 30 years or so, from the Middle East.

Don't fall into the trap that we fell into in Bosnia and Rwanda, of just throwing our hands up and saying that the problem is too deep rooted to attack. We aren't looking to solve the problems in their entirely, just how they are presented. It's like two kids who fight all the time because they are trying to work out their problems. Just because you don't think you can get them to get along doesn't mean you don't take the pocket knife out of the hands of one of them.

pd
 
40Madman
      ID: 68361122
      Fri, Sep 14, 12:35 		biliruben Regarding the "root reasons" for terrorism you mentioned in the other thread I meant to respond to that but didn't get around to it. Your argument was that we consume an "unfair" quantity of the world's consumables, yes?

If this is your argument, my quick counter-argument is that there are only two ways to fix this.

1) Reduce American consumption, but mandate current production levels. If you do this, then your "fair" solution would have every American consuming less than he/she produces, while every non-American would consume more than he/she produces. Explain to me how this would be fair.

2) Reduce American consumption AND production. Maybe pass a law mandating a 30 hour work week, etc. I don't exactly see how this would pacify bin Laden, however.
_________________________________

Regarding the initial proposition of this thread, let me say that to require law enforcement to NOT look first at Middle Eastern passengers when going through a list is a pretty silly restriction, and doesn't serve anyone's best interests. ChicagoTRS didn't advocate the curtailment of anyone's civil liberties. All he said is that there is a tremendous statistical correlation between ethnicity and terrorism, and that to ignore this fact will inevitable lead to an erosion of everyone's civil liberties. Almost all of the responses dealt with how the questioned are dealt with, not Chicago's point of who to question first.

______________________________

On a somewhat lighter note, since there are no games for awhile.

Madman Defense (Military) Rankings (1980):

1) U.S.
2) U.S.S.R.
NR Afghanistan

Madman Defense Rankings, Sept. 2001:

1) Afghanistan -- in 21 years, it defeats and eliminates #2 USSR from existence, then successfully attacks #1 U.S. with the most explosive single bombings since WWII, and the first sinkings of U.S. warships in combat for quite some time (I think). All while sustaining an on-going civil war and suffering virtually zero casualties in over 2.5 years of war against new #2 U.S. First nation in history to cause more American casualties in 2+ year war than were inflicted on them.
2) U.S. -- suffers worst attack on its citizenry in history, undecided on what to do next. A Close #2, but can they regain the prestige of the #1 spot in the world? Would you want this team on your fantasy team over the last 3 years?
NR U.S.S.R. -- defunct. Defeated by current #1 and #2.
 
41The_Mentors
      ID: 9432248
      Fri, Sep 14, 12:40 		Chicago;
"Israel is one of our #1 allies and they are probably the #1 reason we are being targeted now."
We got ourselves involved in a conflict over 1000 years old that CANNOT BE SOLVED. Is it worth it?
 
42Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 488481411
      Fri, Sep 14, 12:41 		You want a lighter note? I posted this in the Aussie Rules forum and on a Footy board based in Australia:

Some things that footy could do to show solidarity:

1. An agreed-to 1/3 less tripping during matches.
2. Only light beer consumed after the first period.
3. After particularly flagrant fouls, the person being hit is allowed to yell: "You friggin' bin Laden, you!"
4. Use of an American-style football during the first five minutes of each match.
5. Winning teams' fans agree to clean up, rather than cause, rubble in the street.
6. Donations of blood. Before the matches only.
7. Send over that crocodile guy to look down in the subways for people still awaiting rescue.
8. Port [my fav team] allowed to win in a walkover as they are "America's Team."
9. At the first sign of trouble in the terrorists' compound, an Aussie rules squad is sent in first to "soften them up."

pd
 
43ChicagoTRS
      Sustainer
      ID: 4324316
      Fri, Sep 14, 12:48 		Mentors...sometimes you have to stand up for what you believe is right. If we do believe in Israel and think of them as Allies there is no way you can abandon them now. Not that Israel could not handle and defend themselves well enough. They probably have the most highly trained and advanced military in the world along with us. Our role in this conflict is to prevent a war in the middle east I doubt without our involvement that there wouldn't have been a massive war there already.
Taking a leadership role throughout the world does come with some expense. But you have to look at the benefits to...many more people on this world are now free because of us.
 
44The_Mentors
      ID: 9432248
      Fri, Sep 14, 12:51 		Agreed.
 
45biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Fri, Sep 14, 13:17 		Madman - you gotta start thinking outside the box. ;)

I would seriously doubt we agree on how we should measure "production". I would argue that the U.S. is alot less "productive" than typical capitalist measures would suggest.

The obvious 3rd choice is to scrap capitalism entirely as a terrible joke taken way too seriously. I can still almost hear Smith and Keynes gigging.

Even though I know it is a huge mistake to argue economics with an economist, armed only with a slide-rule and a lullaby, I will give it a swing. I will even use typical crap like energy consumption and GDP.

On second thought... nah. I really gotta get some work done today. (run away, run away!)

;)
 
46Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 488481411
      Fri, Sep 14, 13:54 		bili, is that an old debating trick, baiting, then running away?

;)
 
47biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Fri, Sep 14, 14:03 		Shhh..., PD. I'm busy trying to boost production. Don't tell Madman.
 
48Texas Flood
      Donor
      ID: 2110432013
      Fri, Sep 14, 14:45 		interesting reading here fellow gurupies. i am wondering how we (our country) got to where we are today? as some of you know i am one of the elder statesmen on these boards at age 53.

i can remember going to high school and putting hunting rifles in our lockers along with hunting kinives during deer season. when i was in high school we had a rifle team and we used to "shoot" aginst other schools.

we settled our differences under the bleachers or at football practice. when it was over we usually shook hands and became friends again. we believed in "truth, justice and the american way", "scouts honor" and "one for all and all for one".

most of our fathers and grandfathers fought in the "great" war and we looked up to these hero's. we had true hero's!

IMHO the viet nam war changed everything. many young men gave thier lives in what was thought to be a just cause. when they returned they were called "baby killers", reviled and spit upon. they were made to feel ashamed for doing thier duty and protecting the american way of life.

I remember the start of that war as if it were yesterday. there was the same feeling in the air as there is today. young men joined the armed services by the thousand and vowed to do thier duty and repress "the great evil" of commumism. as the weeks, months and years draged on and the body counts soared the american people came apart at the seams. Is this how we got to where we are today?

I sincerely hope that the terrible incident that took place on tuesday brings this country together for good, whatever the outcome of this tragedy is. We need to re-establish a sense of patroittisim, pride and a willingness to sacrifice in order to prevail and maintain our place in the world.

may god be with us all and my prayers go out to those who are about to be put in harms way. we must prevail and god bless america! TF
 
49Dec
      ID: 48541115
      Fri, Sep 14, 15:01 		Sorry Texas Flood,
I don't share your views on the good old time...After the deer, did you have black hunting season also???
 
51Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 488481411
      Fri, Sep 14, 15:08 		what kind of crap is that, dec? What, outside of your own myopic view, would cause you to think of Texas Flood as a racist?

I've bantered with TF on these boards for some time. He's a valuable member of this community and nowhere has he put forth any opinions which would cause anyone here to question his beliefs.

You owe him an apology.

pd
 
52Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Fri, Sep 14, 15:10 		Dec - It's possible to disagree with TF's view of the time of his childhood without making a stupid comment like that - you'd have to think first and then type, though.
 
53Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Fri, Sep 14, 15:14 		Funny, Dec makes a couple of bold statements that happen to be flat out wrong on the other thread. When others concur that he is grossly mistaken, rather than admit he is talking out of his arse in what is otherwise a very productive and interesting discussion, he comes over to this thread to spew more of his crap.
Ignore him.
I'm sure we all long for the simpler time that TF speaks of. And TF has never to my knowledge posted anything that could be construed as racism.
 
54Dec
      ID: 48541115
      Fri, Sep 14, 15:21 		Sorry for my choice of words but for me
"Rifles and hunting knives in high school locker" is quite disturbing. Can you just have books in your locker?
 
55Texas Flood
      Donor
      ID: 2110432013
      Fri, Sep 14, 15:25 		amazing, some of my black brothers never came home. they spilled thier red blood along with many white, asian, vietnamese, jews, american indian and many other ethnic groups "over there".

only a coward sitting behind a computer screen make that kind of insensitive comment. FU!
 
56ChicagoTRS
      Sustainer
      ID: 4324316
      Fri, Sep 14, 15:26 		Dec...I think the point he was trying to make is yes they had hunting knoves and rifles in their school lockers yet noone was ever shot or stabbed and if there was a problem it was solved man to man with fists.

Basically saying the good old days when people had enough respect and responsibility that they could have a gun but would never use it to harm someone else.
 
57patjams
      ID: 22858138
      Fri, Sep 14, 15:45 		Reports now are that two of the hijackers were Saudi military offiecrs who received some training from the U.S. Air Force at some point in time.
 
58sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Fri, Sep 14, 16:02 		agreed TF. My Aunt is a Jr High teacher back in Iowa. We've discussed many times the 'escalation' of the schoolyard 'punk'. Used to be, that was the kid chewing gum in class. Then it was the guy who smoked cigs in the boys room,...sadly, now its the a-hole who brings a gun to school.
 
59Cleveland Fan
      Donor
      ID: 384131723
      Fri, Sep 14, 16:07 		There were also some interns at the Cleveland Clinic high fiving each other after the attack. Patients were, of course, offended. The interns were taken away by the police. I know that is a violation of their civil rights, but, I hope they will be sent back to their own country (whatever it is) pronto. A non-related story: The police had to add extra patrolman to watch the Arab-owned stores in the area because of unprovoked attacks on the store owners. It is an ugly world that we live in.
 
60Rogue's Strikers
      ID: 33732119
      Fri, Sep 14, 16:16 		, #24. (Don't know if someone answered this already, didn't have time to read the whole thread.) A very simple solution would be to have the cockpit have its own bathroom, kitchen and flight attendant. On long-range craft have a small bedroom/ready room for spare pilots. Expensive perhaps, but would allow you to lock the pilots in. (Also, make the door they lock a solid 10 inch steel door, none of this 1/2 inch plastic crap that can be cut threw or something.) Hell, maybe even an armed guard inside just in case.

Or, perhaps an armed SWAT team in the back of every plane? (5-10 men?)

All options that I would be willing to pay increased airfair fees to see implemented, and they wouldn't really affect our freedom, just increase our security.
 
61patjams
      ID: 22858138
      Fri, Sep 14, 16:28 		I believe a 10 inch thick steel door would compromise the integrity of the aircraft. I heard somewhere that in order for the air pressure inside a plane to remain stable the interior of the plane has to be made up of "forgiving" materials. Maybe someone who knows more about this can verify as it was something I picked up from one of the media outlets.
 
62Razor
      Donor
      ID: 305102622
      Fri, Sep 14, 16:34 		Send them back to their own country? So we are picking and choosing who gets the right to free speech and who doesn't? I'd rather people see people celebrating in the streets than to see policemen hauling those same people off to jail for saying the "wrong" thing.
 
63Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Fri, Sep 14, 16:40 		Agreed Razor. As horrible as it is, it is not and should not be a crime to emotionally support terrorist regimes, so long as one does not abet the effort. A very difficult issue though, especially after what has transpired.
 
64Texas Flood
      Donor
      ID: 2110432013
      Fri, Sep 14, 16:43 		ya know CF it's not the world that's ugly just some of the people.

for a very long time almost ANYONE who wanted to come to America was allowed to be here. we are the great nation of immigints and in a sense we are all foreginers. All that may have changed on Tuesday. IMHO our borders should be tightened and it should be much more difficut to get into our country than it has in the past. I think we need to check as many visa's, work permits, green cards ect as possible and if they are not valid those people should be deported immediately.

we have become a nation of consumers rather than producers. we are very dependent on imports and have almost lost entire industries to foregin competition. things like Oil, Steel, electronics, clothing, shoes, appliances and automobiles (and thier components) are largely imported. why? they would cost more if made here i guess. i for one would be willing to a little more for a TV if i knew that the person who put it together was making a decent living and that those dollars he made were being spent here at home.

i guess i'm trying to look at the bright side of things here and i'm hoping this terrible situation can be turned into something positive. perhaps our country will begin to come together as one, become less dependent on others and move forward in a positive direction.

interesting, as i was typing this i heard a jet leave our airport for the first time this week. nice to hear that sound again. TF
 
65WiddleAvi
      ID: 9830119
      Fri, Sep 14, 16:49 		I think that people who celebrate should be arrested. As much as we say that we have free speach that is not 100%. You can't make threats against the president. What about threatening to kill someone ?? There are some limits to free speach. Who decide's where the line gets drawn ? I don't know but I don't think that people celebrating a catastrophy like this belong in our country.
 
66patjams
      ID: 22858138
      Fri, Sep 14, 16:51 		Razor and MITH, I would bet that those people being taken away had more to do with their safety than the fact that they were cheering the attack. You can bet that if I saw someone celebrating the death of Americans while living inside of Her borders and under the protective umbrella of Her courageous men and women who protect those borders, I would come unglued. And I'm sure there would be a mob of people right behind me. It has come a time to choose sides and if you choose to be visibily and arrogantly against America you better damn well get your azz out of the country. Don't be so naive to think that you can hide behind the protection of "free speech". I wanna see someone celebrate, in front of a crowd of Americans, the death of all these innocent civilians. That is a celebration that is sure to be short lived.
 
67Texas Flood
      Donor
      ID: 2110432013
      Fri, Sep 14, 17:00 		here's to hoping that those celebrating cleveland clinic intern's will be treating the wounded and dying in thier homeland very soon! just another red neck view i guess.

i wonder how many americans they have killed while at the cleveland clinic.
 
68James K Polk
      ID: 19351290
      Fri, Sep 14, 18:31 		patjams 61 -- I don't know about a 10-inch steel door, but the door to the cockpit can certainly be stronger than the current flimsy things we use. Israel, for example, uses dual doors to completely seal off the cockpit during flight. In fact, Israel does a lot of things differently in terms of air security.
 
69KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Fri, Sep 14, 19:33 		"'Rifles and hunting knives in high school locker' is quite disturbing" That's the point. It wasn't disturbing "back then." It's only become disturbing now because more people now feel they have to settle their scores and take out their own problems on others using guns and knives. "Back then" you either fought it out with your fists or you sucked it up and dealt with it.

As far as the 10-inch thick steel door goes, it wouldn't work. First reason is that you have to counter-balance it somehow and that's not likely. When you fly on a small plane (a puddle-jumper for instance) and they tell you they have to have so many people behind the wing and they need to shift a couple of bags for weight distribution, you realize how much of a science it is and how delicate it is. But I do agree that something could be done. My initial thought is a 1-inch thick carbon fiber door with 1/4-1/2-inch thick bulletproof steel (yes, it exists), with a 12-inch circular lexan window. This would provide reasonable protection from most weapons unless they get some large, high-powered rifles on board and even that would have questionalbe effects. Further, the lexan window allows the pilots to see out (something not on most current doors) without opening the door. I also think a security code only known by the pilot and co-pilot could have some benefits. Possibly even coded auto-pilot so that the plane can't be taken off auto-pilot, if put on in an emergency mode. Though could auto-pilot be "smart" enough to land the plane even in an open field? Could there be programmed fields across the nation? This is out of my territory, but I'm just thinking "aloud". Further, I'm not sure about the door material specifics. It's been a few years since I've dealt with that stuff and my brain is a little fuzzy. ;)

 
70Roo
      ID: 665497
      Fri, Sep 14, 21:21 		Don't worry! The National Review Online (America's Premier Conservative Website) has got it figured out:

"It is scandalous that a few hijackers with knives were able to hold scores of airline passengers at bay. As a good first step towards making commercial airplanes dangerous for hijackers, pilots should be issued handguns…..Cabin stewards who wish to carry concealed weapons should likewise be authorized to do so….And passengers? Forty years ago, sportsmen routinely stowed their shotguns in overhead luggage compartments. There were no laws against bringing guns onto planes. Whatever the benefits that have resulted from the last three decades of laws against passengers carrying lawfully owned firearms onto planes, they have been far outweighed by a single day's deaths which are the direct result of turning planes into safe zones for terrorists."
 
71ivan
      ID: 20358521
      Fri, Sep 14, 21:28 		i'm reminded of a sign i saw in vt a few years ago, outside montpelier -

"city lmits - buckshot only"

---

 
72sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Fri, Sep 14, 23:06 		problem with that scenario in a nutshell....any idea at all what happens to the pressurization (immediately followed by the controllability) of an passenger aircraft with a bullet hole in it?

I would concur, and IMMEDIATELY, with the notion of arming stewardesses/stewards with stun guns and air marshalls with handguns loaded with low grain dum-dum rounds. As the owner of more than one firearm, I am definitively pro-gun. However the LAST thing I want, is 63 armed passengers on an aircraft, whipping out handguns and starting to engage in a firefight, with the terrorist in the middle and each passenger shooting not only at the terrorist, but towards other passengers as well.
 
73Madman
      ID: 68361122
      Sat, Sep 15, 01:00 		biliruben -- fair enough. However, I have always found it perplexing when people say that we consume a disproportionate amount here in the U.S. Because it is virtually impossible to continually consume less than you produce.

Plus, I found that whole argument odd, since the most likely perpertrator of this terrorism is a billionaire.

A billionaire who got his billions in a very uncapitalistic system.
 
74Madman
      ID: 68361122
      Sat, Sep 15, 01:10 		Oops. I meant to say that it is impossible to continually consume MORE than you produce . . . which is a fact that most anti-capitalist forces tend to try to ignore. Further, this also means that for every dollar we use to buy raw material imports, we have to ship products to those countries. Thus a highly ironic twist of the typical anti-capitalist argument is that we should be providing FEWER goods and services to less developed economies. Yet another fact that I've never seen plausibly addressed.
 
75slimer
      ID: 2644430
      Sat, Sep 15, 01:44 		I'm not sure if this has been mentioned or not, but I say put a few cameras in the plane and have monitors in with the crew and give the crew guns.....when they see something suspicious they can be ready and also report it to the flight controllers (or whoever) immediately. And as Sarge stated, give the flight attendants stun guns.

Of course they would have to hire someone to monitor the monitors, but that doesn't matter.
 
76sarge33rd
      ID: 25818711
      Sat, Sep 15, 07:54 		not just give them the stun guns, but then TRAIN them in the use. Also, Airport Security personnel and screeners at the metal detector checkpoints/x-ray machines...are pd in the order of $6/hr. Just as consumers 'get what they pd for' when we purchase commodity "X" on the cheap...so too do employers 'get what they pd for' in the hiring process. For $6/hr, you will NOT get quality, dedicated and capable workers. Of course, paying those people a living wage ($12-$15/hr) that is commensurate with the importance of the task...would mean that we as passengers need to be prepared to pay substantially more and spend substantially more time in the process of...engaging in air travel.
 
77KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 266182910
      Sat, Sep 15, 09:53 		sarge, just to clarify. You asked, "what happens to the pressurization (immediately followed by the controllability) of an passenger aircraft with a bullet hole in it?"

From what I understand, losing pressure really isn't too big of a problem if it doesn't involve the entire top of the fuselage ripping off. Even then, there was a plane years ago that had something similar to this happen and they landed safely in Hawaii. There were casualties, but "only" those who were literally sucked out of their seats by the force of the fuselage roof ripping off. The biggest problem with loss of pressure in an airplane is oxygen. But that's why they have the little yellow cups with bags attached that fall from the roof. The plane would likely be more difficult to control, but I would think that a plane that lost an engine would be more difficult to control and those types land fine also.

Again, I'm not an airplane specialist, just relaying information about stories I've heard and what I can deduce from that.

 
78Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 28861216
      Sat, Sep 15, 10:01 		I remember that incident about Hawai'i, KKB. I believe there was only one casualty, a flight stewardess who was sucked out of the roof, but the rest of the seated passengers were OK.

Madman, not to beat a dead horse here, but since all of our exports are goods and services we produce but don't consume, the idea is that we should consume less production internally, thereby leading to more excess production, and export even more of this production to those poor countries.

I'm not advocating any system, distribution idea, or political agenda. Just pointing out that the system is not closed and that excess production is already going in the directions the critics say. We simply differ on the amount.

pd
 
79Madman
      ID: 68361122
      Sun, Sep 16, 16:27 		PD -- that's what I said in post #40, option #1. However, notice that to sustain that sort of trade surplus, you are going to have to have Americans buying up lots of land, building factories, etc., in 3rd world countries. If you don't give foreigners money to buy your goods, then you won't be able to export them. Of course, increasing American control of foreign assets is something that I had assumed Bin Laden wouldn't like.

Please tell me how that will make Bin Laden happier? I was apparently under the misguided impression that American capitalism spread overseas was what was aggravating him, not the reverse.

Hmmm. There is another way to do this. You could enslave a good chunk of the American workforce. In that way, you could simultaneously maintain production (assuming you had efficient slave taskmasters) and decrease the income (and thus consumption) of Americans allowing for the surplus production to be shipped overseas.

To be frank, I think all who make these sorts of arguments are living in a rather naive world with an incomplete understanding of the full economic ramifications of their assertions. But I agree that statements like "Americans consume a disproportionate amount of the world's goods" makes a nice sound-byte. And bin laden would probably support the second methodology -- partial American slavery.

Solution methodology 1 (increased American control of foreign assets) would surely push us away from biliruben's blissful world, although we would indeed consume less. Of course, if he is advocating the end of capitalism, perhaps he is actually advocating some sort of partial slavery in which a foreign nation is allowed to make production demands (without recompensation) upon U.S. citizens to maintain a large trade surplus here in the U.S.?
 
80Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Sun, Sep 16, 17:03 		Stuff I haven't seen but could have missed here.

Isreal has proven planes can be made safe from terrorism if the passengers are willing to pay the inconvenience price.

We were all set to be angry at whichever country trained the terrorist pilots only to find they were trained here. Imagine if this had not been the case.

If in the future we look more carefully at Palestinians taking flying lessons will the authorities be accused of harrassing people for FWP [flying while Palestinian] or will they be allowed to fully investigate their suspicions. [I am not being flippant, I think we pay police to follow their hunches and highway police...]