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Subject: OT: WWE

Posted by: Mr. Budweiser - [32553612] Thu, Jun 06, 2002, 14:08

Just wondering how many guru-aficionados are interested in World Wrestling Entertainment (formerly the World Wrestling Federation).

I, for one, am a huge fan although it seems that lately the story-telling has become quite suspect. Yet, with superstars such as The Rock, HHH, Jericho, Benoit, Angle, Hogan, the Undertaker, Edge, RVD, etc., I'm sure WWE will always be entertaining to say the least.

By the way, I miss Stephanie! ;)

Purple Pimp At Work
ID: 245912
Thu, Jun 06, 2002, 15:04

Its all good HBK is back! and Brock Lesnar is amazing he is the "next big thing"

Dan
Sustainer
ID: 0229323
Thu, Jun 06, 2002, 15:15

UH OH, well good thing the almighty one is out of town. ;-)

Great One
Donor
ID: 454402915
Fri, Jun 07, 2002, 00:16

its amazing that the Rock is the one whom I originally got my handle from a few years back and I don't even like him anymore, but I just don't want to change for fear of losing my identity - not that anyone really sees me posting much anyway

Lesnar is one of the scariest men I have ever seen, even non-wrestling fans should take a look at this guy just to get an idea of the performances he puts on... they really are putting him over rather well, I wish I had a good picture to link up to show how HUGE he is, but it doesn't really translate well to some of the pics I have stumbled across

Bodacious Tatahs
ID: 58256119
Fri, Jun 07, 2002, 10:37

I'm going to the Rock's part in Memphis on saturday night. A cool 100 per ticket but hey; Halle Berry will be there too!

Tree
ID: 599393013
Fri, Jun 07, 2002, 13:03

i'm a HUGE wrestling fan - going back over 25 years when i was a kid growing up in Texas and the Von Erichs, Gino Hernandez, Chris Adams and Bruiser Brody rules my world.

the WWF is a freakin' joke, but there are flashes of brilliance. RVD is among the best out there, and Eddy Guerrero *IS* the best wrestler in the world right, Brock Lesner has potential to be a monster beast heel, and the upcoming feud between Hurricane Helms and Jamie Knoble could be one of the best the WWF has seen in a long time if they let both guys do their stuff.

and of course, Benoit and Angle are legit tough guys...

in the indie world, guys like the SAT and Low-Ki could be future stars. and Necro Butcher? simply badass...

however, if you're a wrestling fan, look for NWA-TNA, premiering on PPV, Wednesday, June 19, and every wednesday after that for $9.95 each week. definitely some place i'm gonna put my money, because there's a LOT of talent signed up...

Tree
wrestling junkie

JohnnySue
ID: 19510713
Fri, Jun 07, 2002, 13:20

I'm a big wrestling mark as well. The King of the Ring Tournament is on its way. I predict that Rod Van Dam will win it!

beastiemiked
ID: 17414316
Fri, Jun 07, 2002, 14:26

BT, a buddy and I were talking about driving down to Memphis tomorrow(3 hour drive). Don't want to be at the fight but you cant beat Beale St. and Tunica. What's with this party?

Se7eN
Donor
ID: 1945939
Fri, Jun 07, 2002, 15:51

C'mon Tree you can't be serious. Eddie is the best wrestler. There is no question who the best "wrestler" is. King Kurt is an Olympic Gold Medalist, and if you remember him saying..."I won it with a broken freagin' neck"! It's True It's True, It's damn True!!!

Y2JS
ID: 5954716
Fri, Jun 07, 2002, 16:15

Have to agree with Se7eN on this one Tree. Kurt Angle is just a downright sick pure wrestler, much better than Latino Heat. Plus it's amazing to see how good this guy was making the transition from mat wrestling to the WWE style. Secondly, if Kurt Angle is 1 than Ron Van Dam is 1A. If anyone ever went to any ECW events back in the day or even attended the ECW Arena here in Philly then you know what i'm talking about. Some of the crazy sh*t he pulls now doesn't even come close to how it used to be, WOW! Makes me want to dust off some old copies of "November to Remember" ppv's and appreciate this guy.

PS: Y2J is a close 3rd ;)

sosa
ID: 1441303
Fri, Jun 07, 2002, 17:05

I get a laugh out of some people in the business who are worried about WWE's ratings being in a down cycle, I mean sure Raw is down to the high 3-low 4 range, but meanwhile ESPN was ecstatic with game 1 of the Stanley Cup Finals pulling in a 2.8.

By the way, NWATNA looks like it will be a joke to me.

Great One
Donor
ID: 454402915
Fri, Jun 07, 2002, 18:14

how bout leaping off the corner ring post and diving head over heels, ten rows deep into chairs and his opponent Bam Bam Bigelow...

Y2JS
ID: 50512718
Fri, Jun 07, 2002, 18:26

Oh hell yeah dude!!!

How bout jumping off the top ropes from one ring post to the other kicking a chair into his opponent's face....the Van Terminator!

Mike D
Donor
ID: 40420258
Fri, Jun 07, 2002, 21:15

C'mon guys, it's Rob Van Dam. Gotta stick up for that crazy E-C-Dub guy.

Y2JS
ID: 55519721
Fri, Jun 07, 2002, 21:22

Holy crap! I said Ron, thanks for catching that Mike D. That's flat out awful of me, even worse is the Great One didn't catch me on it, lol ;)

Mike D
Donor
ID: 40420258
Fri, Jun 07, 2002, 21:27

It's ok Y2JS, JohnnySue said "Rod." (Lol) He's just excited about the King of the Ring I guess. ;)

Mike D
Donor
ID: 40420258
Fri, Jun 07, 2002, 21:28

BTW, I'm drinking some Buds in honor of the thread originator. ;)

Y2JS
ID: 55519721
Fri, Jun 07, 2002, 21:35

LMAO! I didn't even catch that Mike. Rod is flat out terrible, much worse than Ron ;) By the looks of things someone might think JohnnySue and myself were the one's drinking.

Big ups to my man Booker T for the upcoming King of the Ring ppv, hope he takes the title. The man just seem's not to be able to get ahead in the WWE.

Mike D
Donor
ID: 40420258
Fri, Jun 07, 2002, 21:36

He's gotta go face, and soon. His promos are splitting my sides. The one at 7-eleven with Goldust (who was in disguise) was incredible.

Y2JS
ID: 55519721
Fri, Jun 07, 2002, 21:46

Mike, you preach the truth better than Rev. D-Von. But a more important question looms....will you ever forget the 2 skits with Austin in the grocery store and the church? Amazing stuff, especially when Booker posed as a statue in the church with the robe on, lol!

Mike D
Donor
ID: 40420258
Fri, Jun 07, 2002, 21:48

Church was good, grocery store was even better, IMHO. Seeing the Book covered in flour and crumpled in a shooping cart, while knocked out, was priceless. And on free TV no less.

Great One
Donor
ID: 454402915
Fri, Jun 07, 2002, 22:24

is there a site that has these clips available to download? that would be sweet... I am gonna run some searches on WinMx..

Doobie
ID: 40524921
Sun, Jun 09, 2002, 21:39

When is wrestling on free television and on what station? It's fun to watch but I never know when it's on. Is there a time when it's always on? Thanks.

Y2JS
ID: 15527916
Sun, Jun 09, 2002, 21:46

Monday Night Raw - 9pm EST on TNN (Mondays, obviously)

Smackdown - 8pm EST on UPN (Thursdays)

blue hen, almighty
Leader
ID: 27048221
Mon, Jun 10, 2002, 00:04

Also Sunday 11-12 PM on MTV and Saturday 10-12 PM on TNN.

I agree with the stuff above... Kurt Angle is easily the best performer in the WWE. And it's not even close.

Eddy and Austin should have a decent feud, but Austin has been pretty crappy of late. I'd have given him time off instead of the Rock.

I do like where the nWo is headed. I think they will stay as heels, which may mean Booker will be out fairly soon. Nash is a good leader, and hopefully they'll add some young blood soon. But who will they fight against? Benoit should have been brought back as a good guy.

Rob Van Dam would be better if he wasn't so stiff and didn't hurt guys. And if he was a little taller. The stuff is fun to watch, but if you're going to push him, you've got to get rid of the Hardys.

I like the Tough Enough decision. The women's division might actually be interesting someday.

Y2JS
ID: 15527916
Mon, Jun 10, 2002, 00:33

Agreed on the Tough Enough decision BH, the Women's division is very stagnant right now without Lita and the removal of Chyna. I mean, it seems like Terri is now being turned into a wrestler, lol.

About the RVD height issue, Jericho himself had the same problem but he's managed alright (thanks to those 4inch heels they put on the bottom of his boots) =)

And Finally, I would love to see Shawn Michaels now actively wrestling and not be some sideshow for the NWO that he was in DX. We'll see how it goes.....my early pick for King of The Ring is Brock Lesnar although I want Booker to take it, SUCKA!!!!!!!!

Takeda
ID: 452312711
Mon, Jun 10, 2002, 00:37

Why did they change their name from wwf to wwe?

Dan
Sustainer
ID: 0229323
Mon, Jun 10, 2002, 00:52

because the wwf sued them?...

Y2JS
ID: 15527916
Mon, Jun 10, 2002, 00:58

NO Dan, lol. IIRC it was because some Wildlife "group" had the same name and were suing for the exclusive rights to the WWF name. So it was re-named to the "WWE" (World Wrestling Entertainment) and the friggin Wildlife people got "WWF"

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Mon, Jun 10, 2002, 10:14

some Wildlife "group"

Who do these friggin Wildlife people think they are anyway!?

LOL

They've only existed for 40 years.

JohnnySue
ID: 295141013
Mon, Jun 10, 2002, 13:29

I said "Rod" Van Dam???? I'm such a jerk. Sorry, I knew it was "Rob", just mistyped!.....;)

RVD ought to win King of the Ring. He's a future Undisputed Titleist. If the powers that be (Stephanie, Paul Heyman, etc.) can figure out a way, it'd be cool to have a RVD-Booker T finale!

Hey, everything's cool when you're R-V-D!

By the way, how can one such as Chris Jericho win an Undisputed title when he doesn't even have a King of the Ring title under his belt? Insane!

Y2JS
ID: 12541016
Mon, Jun 10, 2002, 16:06

LOL MITH, ah well when it comes to wrestling everything else just doesn't seem so important, well at least to me it's that way ;)

Eville
ID: 14452917
Mon, Jun 10, 2002, 17:24

A real WWF story:

The average cost for rehabilitating a seal after the Exxon Valdez oil spill in Alaska was $80,000. At a special ceremony, two of the most expensively saved animals were released back into the wild amid cheers and applause from onlookers. A minute later, in full view, a killer whale ate them both.

I wonder if Vince has considered that plot yet???

Mr. Budweiser
ID: 185431112
Tue, Jun 11, 2002, 14:13

Thoughts from RAW:

What in the hell is wrong with Stone Cold Steve Austin? Skipping out on RAW just because you can't get your way is totally selfish and unprofessional in my opinion.

Turning Booker T face is a great idea.

Does Vince McMahon have an ego so great that he just HAS to be on both RAW and Smackdown?

Shawn Michaels really said it how it was, didn't he?

blue hen, almighty
ID: 473133021
Tue, Jun 11, 2002, 17:50

I missed most of Raw, but I saw the nWo thing and Vince's match.

Anytime Vince needs to play an active role, it's bad. It means there aren't better, normal performers out there who should be getting chances. This was just lame. I actually enjoy the separation between brands. He'll ruin it.

Why would you break up the APA? Not only do they work well together, they suck individually. The Dudleys I understand, but not the APA.

Booker T will be a GREAT good guy.

Shawn Michaels is lame, but at least they have two giants who can do his bidding. If I were a WWE long-range planner, I'd have a Show vs. Nash match scheduled for Wrestlemania. But it won't happen. Actually, I thought Booker would have been a good thing for the nWo. He could have been the actual good wrestler, and a decent complement to the other four.

The more I think about it, Benoit turning on Austin kind of sucked. When the two were in the ring together, it was like "here are our heroes" almost like the two Jedi knights taking on the entire Imperial army. I would have faded to black right there.

If anyone likes my surmising here, you'll enjoy "Armchair Booking" at slashwrestling.com.

Great One
Donor
ID: 92142016
Wed, Jun 12, 2002, 00:33

you gotta admit that Shawns Superkick on Booker was absolutely beautiful - and the key was the timing of it because it shocked everyone. I think we all knew they might turn on him, but it was a quick and violent surprise - always nice to be surprised once in a while.

like when you skip Astacio's 100 points last night and pick up Damico tonight for -64 on your Mets only team... wait, that wasn't a good surprise, thats... a bad surprise.

Tree
ID: 4310343
Wed, Jun 12, 2002, 07:07

to me, "Wrestler" is a pretty broad term. i still think eddy is the best wrestlers around - kurt and rvd are up there too - kurt, to me, is a legit tough guy and bad ass, and i would not want to meet him in a real fight.

the reason i put eddy on top is because he can wrestle in ANY style. he can brawl, do lucha, highspots, mat wrestling, etc etc. Angle has yet to by able to lucha or do anything really highflying, so when it comes to all-around, eddy, to me is better.

one thing that i'm torn about is the combining of Eddy, Benoit, Lesner, with AA and Flair. it's some sort of second coming of the Horsemen, which bring great memory to me, but also saddens me, because i hate when wrestling tarnishes what is great.

as for austin walking out on raw, i don't blame him. he's still arguably, one of the biggest draws in the WWF, to ask him to roll over for Brock Lesner is stupid. Austin can still be on top, no reason for him to be a sacrifice yet...

and finally, i was in the Arena in philly for old ECW stuff. the first time i saw ECW on tv was in early 1996. my first two matches in that building were "Born to be Wired" and "Barely Legal", so trust me, i know all about heat and madness (in that building, in the summertime, in more ways that one!"

BUT, i will also say, that if you really wanted to see ECW at its rabid best, it was in the Elks Lodge ("the madhouse of extreme", in Queens, NY.

Tree

Mike D
Donor
ID: 40420258
Wed, Jun 12, 2002, 07:09

Saw them twice in PA, but not in Philly unfortunately, and the intensity of those cards was unmatched by any WWF or NWA card I had ever seen, including PPVs.

saber34
ID: 13548129
Wed, Jun 12, 2002, 09:57

Maybe someone here can answer a question for me! I'm not offering to sell it here, but I have an autographed card of Trish Stratus from a divas set. I think I saw it listed at $400 in a Tuff Stuff guide. However on Ebay it'll only fetch $50 or so, I was hoping for at least 150-200 but don't have any idea who to sell it too. I tried a couple of shops around the area but they don't do wrestling. I also tried a few store on-line, but they don't buy. Anybody know of a wrestling only auction or wrestling card/memorbilia website?

JohnnySue
ID: 235401312
Thu, Jun 13, 2002, 12:56

blue hen, almighty...
Here are my thoughts on Mr. Vincent K. McMahon:

He owns WWE, therefore he has absolute carte blanche on anything involving his company. This would include appearing on any show of his choosing for as long as he wants in order to do or say anything he wants.

Granted, from a storyline perspective, he can be grating at times but let's face it the unmitigated truth-- Both Raw and Smackdown would not be the same without his presence! His wrestlers respond, the announcers
respond, even the fans respond to him. All in positive ways. (Yes, I know the fans "Boo" him, yet that is what they're supposed to do.)

You can love him or loathe him but there is no denying that Vince McMahon MUST partake in the visual medium of his shows! In the words of the soon-departing DDP "That's not a bad thing, that's a good thing."

blue hen, almighty
ID: 473133021
Thu, Jun 13, 2002, 15:14

You're right. I do get a little supercharged when Vince comes out. He's something of a hero to me, having built such an empire. But when he wrestles, that's extraneous.

beastiemiked
ID: 17414316
Thu, Jun 13, 2002, 15:21

When did Vince start taking Roids?

Mike D
Donor
ID: 59422298
Thu, Jun 13, 2002, 15:32

He's just a genetic freak, beastiemiked. ;)

Rumor has it he was just as heavily into it as the wrestlers were when the trials were going on. Hogan testified etc.. When was that? Mid to late 80's?

RockChalker
Donor
ID: 94430
Thu, Jun 13, 2002, 23:40

WWE-"Austin no longer an active member of WWE". Didnt specifically say he was fired or quit, but enough to worry me. Starting to wonder if Bud Selig has a hand in with wrestling.

Mike D
Donor
ID: 40420258
Thu, Jun 13, 2002, 23:49

Neither fired, nor quit at this point. He is, in effect, "benched."

RockChalker
Donor
ID: 94430
Fri, Jun 14, 2002, 00:58

Flair benched him two weeks ago though.

Maybe this is more like designated for assignment.

Mr. Budweiser
ID: 255111413
Fri, Jun 14, 2002, 13:19

Austin is in effect, suspended...and rightly so! The guy had the gall to walk out of Raw just because he didn't want to give Brock Lesnar the rub. Seems so petty to me.

Brock Lesner....now there is the poster guy of steriods. No wonder Vince likes him. ;)

Tree
ID: 599393013
Fri, Jun 14, 2002, 15:38

Austin is certainly not fired. the WWF would be dumb to fire him now, because i'm sure NWATNA would LOVE to have him at their debut show next week. he may never wrestle again at this point...

Tree

sosa
ID: 16534172
Mon, Jun 17, 2002, 02:41

The Austin story may be taking a very sad turn. The chance that this is some sort of elaborate work are very slim at this point because it appears Austin has some serious problems, including allegedly hitting his wife.

Mr. Budweiser
ID: 05381712
Mon, Jun 17, 2002, 12:46

sosa,
If that is true, it would warrant some type of reaction from the WWE. Haven't heard anything about this from them.

On Saturday's Confidential, both Vince McMahon and Jim Ross seemed very pointed with their statements of their assessments on Austin walking out on them this past Monday night. Definitely had a "shoot" type feel. Sadly, I think we've seen the end of the Austin era. But as McMahon said, "I never say never".

sosa
ID: 16534172
Mon, Jun 17, 2002, 19:08

Well the story is picking up steam (picked up by Reuters) so WWE might have to comment in the near future, but for now it appears Debra isn't filing charges so who knows.

Copies of the police report are apparently now surfacing on the Internet, here, or here.

Mike D
Donor
ID: 40420258
Mon, Jun 17, 2002, 19:12

Austin has now been removed from the official WWE RAW page, which can be accessed by logging onto WWERAW.com.

Mike D
Donor
ID: 40420258
Mon, Jun 17, 2002, 19:13

The WWE website is reporting that Triple H will replace Steve Austin at house shows where Austin was originally scheduled to team up with Hollywood Hulk Hogan. The new main event will now be Triple H and Hogan going up against Big Show and Undertaker.

Big O' Knockers
ID: 16501721
Mon, Jun 17, 2002, 21:04

I am(use to be) a Austin fan. If the allegations are true of him hitting Debrah, then he is nothing more than white trash now.

Mike D
Donor
ID: 40420258
Mon, Jun 17, 2002, 23:32

From Rajah:

With Austin's situation worsening over the weekend, the WWE decided it was time to bring back The Rock as a surprise on RAW according to 1wrestling. The angle throughout the night publicised Austin as showing up at the arena, however Rock (who is on the Smackdown roster) made a triumphant return to WWE television. His promo was very emotional and to the point where he stated that WWE was in his blood and anyone who wasn't in it 100% to get the "F" out including Austin.
The other main point that Rocky made was that he was changing his July 11 return date and will work the King of the Ring PPV this Sunday.

Rock's appearance on RAW along with Benoit was another display of Vince allowing wrestlers to cross the brand lines and go against storylines. This early return should go a long way to support the TV and PPV events now that Austin is no longer around.

In related news, Vince McMahon was heard stating that the brand extension would continue, however, we would still see some wrestlers cross over occassionally for various reasons. He also continued to express his disbelief and shock regarding Austin's walk out and domestic disturbance over the weekend with Debra.

Mr. Budweiser
ID: 05381812
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 12:52

Vince is nothing if not a shrewd businessman. You don't become a "certified billionaire" by sitting on your hands while chaos reigns all around you.

Bringing in the Rock, which essentially was McMahon's move--not Rock's, was a sound and necessary manuever. In my opinion, the negativity from the Austin fiasco could have caused a serious dent in the outlook of the WWE from both a storyline and more importantly, a financial point. But once again, Vince used his business acumen to use whatever resources he had at his disposal in order to separate the company from incurring any more harm. I, for one, applaud his decision to let Austin walk and concentrate on entertaining the masses with his remaining roster of superstars.

Rock's rant was a needy reminder to the rest of the locker room that they were indeed a team, through thick and thin. Now, how this will play out in the long run over Rock's career moves, remains to be seen. So far the talk is good but can he walk the walk?

Mike D
Donor
ID: 40420258
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 13:04

I liked the symbolic "end" to the Austin era, where Vince popped a Bud, took a sip, and left the rest of the open can in the center of the ring while he left.

Mr. Budweiser
ID: 05381812
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 13:36

Mike D,
I did too. In fact, I was a little more than surprised that Vince and Co. took the high road as they did and NOT bash Austin in the ground. They could have and it would have been well within their rights.

Yet, don't you get the feeling that all is not over between Stone Cold and WWE? Sure it may take a few years but sometime, somewhere, he'll be back and Vince will welcome him with open arms.

Mr. Nice Guy
Donor
ID: 421124113
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 15:52

ROB!

VAN!

DAM!

Mike D
Donor
ID: 40420258
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 18:56

Mr. Bud, Vince would love to have him back. He'd be crazy not to. That's why I too was pleased to see them take the high road, though I'd be p*ssed if I was Austin that they made all this so public. Still, he had to understand that they would do so.

blue hen, almighty
ID: 473133021
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 19:25

I happened into this thread before the West Coast Raw, so the surprise was utterly ruined for me. Nonetheless, I enjoyed what the Rock had to say and think the issue was covered pretty well.

Rock missed a chance to make a funny when he said "If Austin wants to take his ball and go home..."

Y2JS
ID: 535471820
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 20:58

Agreed here, I personally loved the Rocky interview as he seemed to be able to remove him self from character and speak on pure emotion. I think if Austin doesn't come back the WWE wil be just fine. Now, you may lose half the state of Texas but everything will work out =)

Outside of that, I loved the fact that my man Booker keeps getting more and more TV time, although his loss to Brock pretty much signed sealed and delivered Lesnar as the next King of the Ring champ IMO. Furthermore, I wouldn't be suprised if Brock turns face at some point. Just the feeling I get from the way he confronted the NWO yesterday. Although him joining the NWO seems more likely, but the face part seems like a long long way away seeing as though he really has yet to have any mic time

Mike D
Donor
ID: 40420258
Tue, Jun 18, 2002, 21:07

blue hen, that sucks, sorry (if my posts were part of it). You'll recall from living here in the East, that the West is as far away mentally as it is physically. ;)

Nice to see Booker getting cheers, with all the good work he's done in the WWE(F) in promos. I never knew he had that side of him.

blue hen, almighty
Leader
ID: 27048221
Wed, Jun 19, 2002, 03:04

For all the talk of RVD, Booker is really the next big thing, because he can throw a promo as well as wrestle. And he's a better wrestler than RVD anyway.

In actuality, I think the loss sets Booker up for a match with some NWO member at KOTR. Remember, XPac lost too. I just think the NWO needs someone who can wrestle at the midcard level. Nash and Show squash everyone, HBK can't wrestle, and XPac is a scrawny runt. That's why I think Booker fit well in there, although Shawn Michaels clearly disagreed.

Brock will probably win, but I wouldn't count out RVD and Jericho, although I don't think a Jericho vs. Brock final will happen.

There just aren't enough good guys. Other than the Rock, who had been on vacation, there was Austin (AWOL), Hogan (too old), HHH (lousy as a good guy), and RVD (not yet established), along with Edge and Booker, neither of whom has been a real threat. Then on the other side of the coin, we've got Nash, Big Show, Jericho, Angle, Benoit, Undertaker, Latino Heat, etc. I seriously think they need to reconsider Benoit and turn him good, and as I said above, give him a Jedi Knight role, with him and Rock defending all that is good with the WWF against evil.

As for the recent brand crossovers, I think they'll be fine keeping separate. I envision a Rock/Benoit vs. HHH/Jericho/Angle on Smackdown, and Booker/RVD/Goldust with Goldberg or Austin vs. the NWO (with Brock, eventually). Those are two solid feuds and leave guys like Edge, Bradshaw, DLo, and Bubba for the midcard, as well as cruiserweights and a very nice women's division. That's not a bad future.

kev
ID: 11438306
Wed, Jun 19, 2002, 03:11

If Goldberg ever does sign, I just see it being a good thing for WWE. All I ever hear Jim Ross say is "Who can stop this man? He is unstoppable"

It is almost as if Brock Lesner is the early career Goldberg- destroying everyone, with no sign of him slowing out.

Wouldnt that be the perfect spot for Goldberg to come back?

The Left Wings
ID: 760719
Wed, Jun 19, 2002, 03:40

I saw the last RAW as addressing Austin in both a polite, sincere way, as well as a harsh, critical way. Vince came out and spoke well of Austin, and the Rock basically scolded him.

I also agree with Blue Hen that there just aren't enough good guys. The few good guys have a scary work load. Why are there so many bad guys? And why don't bad guys ever fight one another? You only see good guys fighting good guys in a friendly fashion for a title, but you never see two bad guys going for it.

About the World Wildlife Federation suing the formly WWF for the naming rights, I think it's total BS. WWF is wrestling, not saving pandas. If they want a name of their own, it should be them who change it to something like World Wildlife Organization and going with WWO, instead of making millions and millions of people change what they associate with wrestling. People say "Did you watch WWF yesterday?" or "Are you gonna watch WWF tonight?" or "What are you doing?" "I'm watching WWF." It sounds like the World Wildlife Federation is trying to make some news out of all this. "WWE? What's that?" "Ah you didn't know? The World Wildlife Federation sued the WWF for the naming rights." They are making a negative impression on me.

Changing the name affects my life and it's unnecessary. I don't like it. WWE is weird.

Just like changing SWP to TSNP is an unnecessary change, I'm gonna stick with WWF. It just sounds right.

Mike D
Donor
ID: 40420258
Wed, Jun 19, 2002, 06:30

Ok Left Wings. I know what you mean too. ;)

Kev-----"early career Goldberg"??? His career only lasted a couple years, that's the irony of the whole Goldberg thing. He was pushed so far, so fast, and had a lot to learn. I know what you meant though, just had to say that.

blue hen, I think the WWF sees Edge as a top guy as opposed to mid card. I also think Hardcore Holly is at the beginning of a post-Tough Enough 2 push. The WWF is notorious for turning people whenever necessary, so even Angle could turn to a face again at some point.

Tree
ID: 4310343
Wed, Jun 19, 2002, 07:00

OK, here's the amateur booker in me. VKM has shown, lately, that he's been mining the history books for ideas.

It seems to me, with Benoit and Eddy beating the piss out of Flair, immediately turning him into a face and those into thuggish heels, it's setting up the return of a Four Horsemen type group, a group of heels that are so incredible as bad guys, that the world revolves around them, and once in a blue moon, situations force them to be faces (i.e., the original Horsemen vs. the Russians)...

i see Benoit, Guerrero, and Lesner, with Paul E. Dangerously as the mouthpiece, forging and alliance....

just an idea...

Tree

blue hen, almighty
ID: 473133021
Wed, Jun 19, 2002, 10:20

Unfortunately, Benoit is the only one who can hold anyone's jock as a main good guy, other than The Rock. Pairing him with Eddy, while appropriate due to their history, is bad, because Eddy is so good as a bad guy. I wouldn't mind seeing them split and doing a program over it. Putting either one in the same ring as Flair is self-defeating, because Flair grabs all the attention.

The reason there aren't any good guys is because it's hard to be a top card good guy. Just look at Edge and RVD. Guys like Angle and HHH, while so amazing as heels, struggle in the good guy role. I think Edge is wasted unless you pair him with Christian. Even if they aren't part of a revamped tag team division, they could be decent face enforcers. But not by themselves. And what do you know, both are on Smackdown! Well, ok, Christian is on Heat, barely.

I miss DDP already.

I like that idea with several guys and Brock with Paul as a mouthpiece. Just because the NWO is powerful, doesn't mean there's room for other factions.

NWO: Nash, Big Show, Michaels, XPac
Flock 2K2: Raven, Regal, Chris Harvard, Hardys
Horsemen: Ric Flair, Eddy Guerrero, Brock, Test, (Arn Andersen, Paul E.)
Canadian Connection (face): Chris Benoit, Edge, Christian, Jericho
Unnamed RAW Face Group: RVD, Booker, Goldust, Austin/Goldberg
Unnamed Smackdown Face Group: Rock, Val Venis, Maven, Rikishi
New Corporation: Vince, HHH, Angle, Shane

That's 7 4-man groups, 3 of which are face, with a bunch of guys (Hardcore, Hogan, Taker, Kane, Mark Henry, DLo, Bubba) left over to play with. Take the 8 best in the women's division (Trish, Molly, Nidia, Jazz, Ivory, Jackie, the other Jackie, Linda), and you've got a Survivor Series.

Tree
ID: 599393013
Wed, Jun 19, 2002, 10:58

Eddy is a great badguy. and so's Benoit. by them attacking Flair the other night, i think it was a face turn for flair, and a solid heel pairing for eddy and benoit.

as for factions, i think if there are too many, it's lame. and face factions often suck - anyone remember the "dudes with attitudes"? they SUCKED.

NWO. some Horsemen redux with the guys i mentioned. and maybe a Flock group, because Raven could easily be a top-card guy. anyone who saw his classic mic work in ECW knows what he can do on the stick. in fact, if anyone can make a face group work, in the "cool heel" sense of the word, Raven could do it.

Tree

The Left Wings
ID: 760719
Wed, Jun 19, 2002, 16:09

I suppose that's why they put Raven on Livewire as a host together with Coachman, who, by the way, looks gay to me. But I digress.

I saw a Jericho interview and he says that he enjoys much more being a heel than a face, so forget about him being a face.

The Canadian Connection should probably be a heel team with Benoit, Jericho, Christian and Lance Storm. But then again, both the WWF and WCW had tapped the idea of Canadians vs Americans, so I doubt if they would go on with this again.

What's wrong with RVD? He might not be one of the big tough guys involved in the Undisputed Champion story, but he does do a good job for those lesser titles. Did you see the ladder match a few weeks ago?

Kurt Angle can't be a face, simply because how his character was developed. He was molded to be an arrogant freak who can't stop showing off his Olympic gold medal. HHH, however, looks better. Perhaps he still has things to learn, but whenever he tries to smile, it cracks me up. I prefer HHH to be a good guy.

I think it shouldn't be that hard to mold a good guy. The prerequisite is just looking like a good guy instead of a big scary guy, as well as being good at the microphone. Saying good things about the crowd and then help other faces while beating up heels would do the magic. However, it's hard to find someone that wrestles well who are also good at the microphone. So I suppose that's the problem.

kev
ID: 11438306
Wed, Jun 19, 2002, 16:15

I would love to see the flock come back. Nothing beat Billy Kidman in the flock.

Well, except Billy Kidman with Torrie Wilson

blue hen, almighty
ID: 473133021
Wed, Jun 19, 2002, 17:48

Jericho was a decent face (but a better heel). But that's because he said funny things that he probably didn't write.

I forgot about Lance Storm. Add him to the equation and the Connection is probably better as heels. But then you lose Edge. And, more importantly, you lose the E&C combination.

What's wrong with RVD? He can't freaking talk. Even Benoit is better than him on the mic.

You're right. Too many factions is trouble. But not enough doesn't seem to be working. At least DX was compelling. I want to see Show vs. Nash fight for control of NWO. That would be exciting. Almost as exciting as the Goldberg/Austin main event at WM19.

The Left Wings
ID: 760719
Thu, Jun 20, 2002, 00:33

I hope the NWO stays put for a while. Ever since it's comeback, it has been constantly changing.
First, it was Hogan, Hall and Nash.
Then Nash left due to injury, and they recruited Xpac.
Then Hogan left and turned face.
Then they recruited Big Show.
Then Hall disappeared.
Then they recruited Booker T.
Then Shawn Michaels joined.
Then they kicked out Booker T.

And it's only be about a few months since they made their way back. What's up with that?

sosa
ID: 16534172
Thu, Jun 20, 2002, 13:53

Are you kidding me, WWE brought Vince Russo back?

blue hen, almighty
ID: 473133021
Thu, Jun 20, 2002, 15:10

You never mentioned Goldust and forgot about Nash coming back.

And it was much worse the last time.

Y2JS
ID: 34513201
Thu, Jun 20, 2002, 17:01

Next thing you know, Terry Taylor will be the WWE Undisputed Champ

Great One
Donor
ID: 155402016
Thu, Jun 20, 2002, 17:08

we should have a midseason, free game division where each individual team is a wrestler (or tag team or group) -

I want...

The Kliq

blue hen, almighty
ID: 473133021
Thu, Jun 20, 2002, 20:07

Y2JS, will Taylor be the Red Rooster or the Blue Hen? It's not like the undisputed champ means anything anymore anyway.

Ichiro
ID: 235272
Thu, Jun 20, 2002, 20:29

Actually, Goldust was never an official member of the NWO. He just thought he was...

I think Rick Flair was part of the NWO though, for like one show.

Y2JS
ID: 345382022
Thu, Jun 20, 2002, 23:32

Wow, if only Test had a personality, he's a great worker. Amazing finishing move he pulled off on Hardcore, kick ass "big boot"

The Left Wings
ID: 760719
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 04:45

That was just a fancy powerslam...
Speaking of that, I miss the British Bulldog. Poor guy... how did he die so early?
The Hart Foundation is left with only Bret Hart and Jim Niedhart. That's pretty sad.

kev
ID: 11438306
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 05:59

TLW- There are still like 4 living Hart brothers. But in the WWF sense of it, yes, 2 only left.

Davy Boy had a drug overdose. Not just steriods. He was into other stuff.

The Left Wings
ID: 760719
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 18:13

Who are the other two?

kev
ID: 11438306
Fri, Jun 21, 2002, 19:06

Here are the rest of the Hart brothers- there are actually more than 2 (Bret and Jim Neidhart already mentioned above)

Bruce Hart- runs Stampede Wrestling, and also runs the Hart Family Wrestling school

Smith Hart- Not involved heavily in wrestling

Keith Hart- not so famous former wrestler. Not in a major corporation though.

Wayne Hart- Former ref

Ross Hart- nothing significant.

The Hart's are a huge family. I believe there were 11 or 12 kids. I cant remember exactly. Still, a lot of sorrow in that family.

Mr. Budweiser
ID: 485312412
Mon, Jun 24, 2002, 12:46

King of the Ring Thoughts.....
King Brock Lesnar? Undoubtedly a physical speciman and good wrestler but choosing him over RVD at this time in their careers? Questionable.

About damn time that Molly Holly has finally won the Women's Title.

Undertaker retains his title. Yawn!

Jamie Noble as the new Cruiserweight Champ? Please!

Why is Flair even attempting to wrestle again? That's right, because "100 year-old" Hogan still is. Way to go Angle!

Overall, a decent show but nothing breath-taking.

blue hen, almighty
ID: 473133021
Mon, Jun 24, 2002, 18:32

Looks like we're going to get a Canadian factor, sans Edge. We forgot about Test, but he'll be great in that role.

I have no problem with Brock over RVD. Granted, I'm not much of an RVD fan (relatively), but this is the perfect way to build Brock up, which has been stated as one of their goals. I would not give Brock the title, but he's an alright king by me.

I don't like Noble as Cruiserweight champ. I hate when they bring a small guy in and just give him the title. Like Kidman. He goes from zero TV time straight to the champ. I didn't like that. And I like Noble in that role even less.

Ichiro
ID: 235272
Tue, Jun 25, 2002, 20:05

I just heard that the WWF Divas Special isn't going to air tonight because it was too risque. I was really looking forward to seeing some thong-tha-thong-thong-thong...oh well.

Ichiro
ID: 235272
Tue, Jun 25, 2002, 20:16

I would also like to say that I've become a huge Goldust mark. Nothing special in the ring, but on the mic, he's great. Him and Booker make a great comedy team. That Steve Irwin thing last night was hilarious. Wish I taped it. That was classic stuff!

blue hen, almighty
ID: 473133021
Tue, Jun 25, 2002, 20:30

I still don't like Goldust, but he definitely validates Booker, which is good. I don't particularly care for Matt Hardy either, but I think that he too has a place. Of course the dumbasses at the WWE can't quite see that place. Same with Farooq.

Johnny Sue
ID: 585462612
Wed, Jun 26, 2002, 13:00

Ichiro,
I echo your thoughts re: Goldust. He's a great comedic talent and a decent wrestler. I think he fits right in with Booker T although they should give them the tag-team titles as well.

Don't like the fact that the tag-team champs can't be on both Raw and Smackdown. They definitely should be.

Anyone read of Jericho's rant against the internet "fans"? It's a must read!

Mr. Budweiser
ID: 49502813
Fri, Jun 28, 2002, 13:15

Brock seems mighty stiff to me especially in light of his dismantling of RVD on Raw. Doesn't much matter who he faces at Summerslam, ain't no way the higher-ups at WWE will give him the title this soon in his career.

Meanwhile, what's he supposed to do until then? Is WWE admitting that Vengance is a lesser PPV and therefore he won't get a shot as champ until Summerslam? Probably means that Undertaker WON'T be the champ at that time.

Lesnar is meant to be a heel right? Unless, of course he destroys Paul Heyman---which could be any day now. So right now, it'll be the heel Lesnar against the face _____. (Fill in the blank)

Doubt it'll be the Rock due to his time constraints. The only top face left is HHH but with his recent elbow surgery, he may not be 100% for some time. Who's left? Edge? Please! RVD? Not a chance. Flair? Not on your life! Booker T? That'd be nice but it's too soon for his reign. Any other options left?

The Left Wings
ID: 760719
Fri, Jun 28, 2002, 16:13

Hulk Hogan?

And yes, Vengance is indeed a lesser PPV as it was added only a few years ago together with Backlash, Judgement Day etc.. Royal Rumble, Wrestlemania, King of the Ring, Summerslam and Survivor Series remain the big ones. Remember? The winner of the Royal Rumble gets the title shot in Wrestlemania (as a tradition), but not the PPV in between (Judgement Day). So we have like 5 big ones and 7 smaller ones. You can definitely see a difference in the way they name them.

Puckprophet
ID: 54371812
Fri, Jun 28, 2002, 21:56

bret hart is in stable condition [had a mild stroke after a high speed bicycle crash].find your own link.

Mr. Budweiser
ID: 1860113
Mon, Jul 01, 2002, 13:23

The WWE Undisputed Champion, The Undertaker puts his title on the line tonight in a ladder match against Jeff Hardy! I believe this is Undertaker's first ladder match of any kind. I don't suspect it'll be a pretty match at all.

But make no mistake about it, Jeff Hardy can not, will not and shall not be the next Undisputed Champ. Makes me wonder why WWE even has this match set up. The risk for injury (especially to the Deadman) is high. With all the injuries that WWE already has, why set this match up with the title at stake?

Mike D
Donor
ID: 59422298
Mon, Jul 01, 2002, 14:16

I thought the exact same thing, Mr. Bud, as I was yawning…….is it the same old thing we've seen before, or a set up for something big? Probably the former.

The Left Wings
ID: 760719
Mon, Jul 01, 2002, 23:26

HHH joins the NWO? Why don't they just call it Degeneration X all over again? I know I know HHH, HBK, Xpac, Hall and Nash are very good friends. But still... What's next? Billy and Chuck?

100

Johnny Sue
ID: 46643312
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 13:41

Ok, here's my thoughts on Monday's Raw:

Flair actually thought he could beat Lesnar. Maybe in his hey day but certainly not anymore.

Why is The Big Show still in the NWO? Threatened to get whipped every time if he and/or X-Pac loses a match would not be conducive to one's future in the group.

Triple HHH in the NWO? Lame. Plus since they're on Raw and he's on Smackdown, is the plan being made that Chris Benoit was traded to RAW for the NWO? How many more members will WWE give to the NWO before they become a dominant factor again?

Speaking of Benoit...as good a wrestler as he is, he sure looked rusty. Thought for sure he broke Bubba's neck. Looked real nasty. For that matter, how about that horrible wrestler named Regal. Almost broke RVD's neck. Or so it seemed.

Is Goldust the funniest performer in WWE? I hope they continue with his backstage antics. They're great! Team him up with Booker T and let them, somehow, carry the tag-team belts.

Lastly, did anyone expect Jeff Hardy to win the Undisputed Title? Me neither.

101

blue hen, almighty
ID: 473133021
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 15:15

I was pulling for Jeff, even though I hate him. I just can't stand the Undertaker. And it doesn't give him an ounce of validity that he's been in a ladder match.

Why doesn't Big Show just kick the carp out of Nash? We all know he could. Is the NWO ever going to do anything besides beat each other up? And when it's HBK doing the beating, it's hardly menacing. If they lost their current gimmick, Billy and Chuck would fit perfectly into that. And they could feud with Goldust and Booker. That might actually be compelling TV.

Bring back the APA. The Dudleys aren't a total disaster, but these guys are. They actually had something together, but are useless when apart.

For that matter, bring back E&C. The best tag team you've ever had, and they're not cutting it. They Canadians will need a tag team eventually, and I don't think it should include Lance Storm.

Honestly, am I the only one enjoying it more, now that Stone Cold and the Rock are gone?

102

Mike D
Donor
ID: 59422298
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 15:19

I thought RAW was an excellent show. I have liked more RAW shows than Smackdown shows by a landslide, though Smackdown has the cruiserweights that put on some excellent matches. I never liked that in the old WCW, but the mix of guys in this division is one we've never seen before, with Tajiri of ECW, Kidman/Hurricane/Noble from WCW, and on occasion some WWFers thrown in.

103

blue hen, almighty
ID: 473133021
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 16:45

Like Crash Holly?

104

Mike D
Donor
ID: 40420258
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 16:49

Um, yeah, that's why I didn't list him. Lol. Christian had some battles early on though, as did XPoc and Spike.

105

The Left Wings
ID: 760719
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 18:36

What happened to Taka Michinoku? I always think that he's better than Funaki, but it was Funaki who remains in the WWF. Is he injured or fired?

106

Mike D
Donor
ID: 40420258
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 19:07

He had a bad shoulder injury and eventually I believe underwent surgery. He remained under contract for quite a while, still is I believe. When the WWF did the brief Japan tour, he was in Funaki's corner.

107

Great One
Donor
ID: 3453220
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 21:27

so who has been watching NWA-TNA and AJ Styles? this guy is doing stuff right now like RVD did when he was actually good... amazing!- of course his best match was last week against Jerry Lynn - hmm... that must say something for Lynn too.

every wednesday night on PPV at 8pm - hopefully some of you guys have illegal cable, but its only 9.95 anyway. and in case you don't know - Ken Shamrock's the champion and Scott Hall and Jarrett are involved, but I guess you guys are pretty well informed, so you probably know that.

108

The Left Wings
ID: 760719
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 21:29

Sounds like WWF rejects... maybe they could be something good.
But then again, sooner or later Vince McMahon would buy them out just like he bought out the WCW.

109

Great One
Donor
ID: 3453220
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 22:11

have you seen AJ Styles though? Vince must have missed the boat on this kid, because he is just amazing. the freshest thing I've seen in a while and worth the price of whatever you have to pay to check him out.

110

blue hen, almighty
Leader
ID: 27048221
Thu, Jul 04, 2002, 04:17

I heard they were talking about signing Goldberg. That would actually make them close to a viable entity. And what about Austin? Now THAT would be an organization. That said, I haven't seen a single show.

I was a big fan of the EVIL motif with mis-timed Japanese. It made for good TV, and those guys were good cruiserweight jobbers. Hopefully, with the talent that's around, the cruiserweight plotlines will be as interesting as their matches.

111

Mike D
Donor
ID: 40420258
Thu, Jul 04, 2002, 07:20

INDEED

112

blue hen, almighty
Leader
ID: 27048221
Thu, Jul 04, 2002, 19:20

See?

113

Tree
ID: 4310343
Mon, Jul 08, 2002, 06:33

2 things to add, as i've finally caught up from being out of town for much of the last 18 days...

jamie noble - if you saw him rasslin in WCW, or in the indies, or in OVW, you know this dude can do some stuff. whether he's jamie-san with an asian gimmick, or the much-improved gimmick of the "crazy redneck" jamie noble, he kicks some tail. give the guy a chance. he can work, and he can work the stick too.

nwa-tna. wwf rejects? perhaps. but since when is that a bad thing?? just because they don't fit into the machine that is the wwf doesnt mean they aren't stars. keep an eye on this thing. there's money behind it, and that's the key...add to that mix some great workers, and well...time will tell..

Tree

114

Bond, James Bond
ID: 23625310
Thu, Jul 11, 2002, 14:14

What's the deal with Kevin Nash? Does he ALWAYS get hurt or what? Seems like a ploy just to make the writers put HHH in his place. I deplore that idea!

115

Mike D
Donor
ID: 59422298
Thu, Jul 11, 2002, 16:58

Quad was torn off the bone. Some ploy. ;)

116

Mike D
Donor
ID: 59422298
Thu, Jul 11, 2002, 17:00

From Rajah:

Any hopes of Steve Austin possibly returning to the WWE have been dashed with the latest issue of WWE RAW magazine. The next edition of the magazine is dedicated to Austin's departure from the WWE, and the WWE certainly don't hold back on their comments. On the cover, there is a picture of Austin wearing his trademark "What?" T-Shirt. However, the "What?" has been replaced with "Why?" One of the features of this issue is several of the wrestlers state their feelings on the situation.

117

The Left Wings
ID: 760719
Thu, Jul 11, 2002, 17:07

But that's not the same injury he's been nursing, is it?
In that case I suppose Kevin Nash will be banished from WWF, if what McMahon said was true a couple of weeks ago about if he doesn't come back quick, he'd be fired.

I love HHH's music right now... I hope they don't change it once he joins the NWO.

118

Mike D
Donor
ID: 59422298
Thu, Jul 11, 2002, 17:18

It was thought that Kevin Nash had torn his biceps muscle, but a MRI showed a deep bruise. He did rehab for a couple months.

119

blue hen, almighty
ID: 473133021
Thu, Jul 11, 2002, 21:34

I liked Big Show's music, and they didn't change it that drastically when he joined the NWO.

120

blue hen, almighty
ID: 473133021
Fri, Jul 12, 2002, 19:36

I'm sure most of you noticed, but Taker teamed with a face last night against Chris Jericho and Kurt Angle. It was a tough match to cheer, because Cena definitely isn't much of a face and Taker is still very much a bad guy. I'm not a big fan of the Vengeance three-way either, since The Rock is going to be quite rusty, and it's two bad guys in there. While Angle can typically make a match better, I think he's just extraneous in here.

I am actually really looking forward to the Edge/Hogan vs Storm/Christian match, but it's real strange to see Edge in that position. I sort of smell a heel turn, but Hogan is obviously not going to be the lone face in that feud. And Rikishi? He's just junk at this point.

Christian: "America sucks."
Edge: "Come on man, America doesn't suck. Get over yourself."
Christian: "Dude, you used to reek of awesomeness. Now you've got the most contradictory gimmick I've ever seen."

121

Tree
ID: 4310343
Sat, Jul 13, 2002, 10:25

I can't see Edge turning heel. the WWe has a serious lack of faces these days at the main event level. they need someone like Edge, as a face, near the top of the card.

Tree

122

The Left Wings
ID: 760719
Sat, Jul 13, 2002, 16:59

I actually don't mind heel matches. I'm tired of seeing faces beating each other. It's time for the evil forces beat the crap out of each other.

123

blue hen, almighty
Leader
ID: 27048221
Sat, Jul 13, 2002, 22:53

But Tree, can you really see Edge feuding with the angry Canadians?

124

Tree
ID: 4310343
Sun, Jul 14, 2002, 15:59

BHA - actually, i can. it's pro wrestling. *anything* is possible. and heck, as an armchair booker, it's simple.

have Edge and Val Venis (any other canadians on the roster that are "faces") feud with their countrymates.

"Look at the opportunities we've been given here in America," says Edge. "Christian - we grew up in this business together. If it wasn't for the opportunities given to us in this country, we'd still be wrestling in some smelly high school gym in Ottawa. Test, you'd still be a bodyguard to a has-been metal band. Lance, you'd still be wrestling in a dead area like calgary."

etc etc. easy-made angle.

Tree

125

blue hen, almighty
Leader
ID: 27048221
Mon, Jul 15, 2002, 02:16

I guess so. I just don't see pure unadulterated hatred in there anywhere.

I thought about something else recently. The NWO. Shawn is still a GREAT mouthpiece, and really my only issue with them of late is the attack on Big Show. But I really don't see where HHH fits in. He's no longer the henchman he was in the DX days. In my view, he HAS to be the leader, especially if they're heels. But with Shawn there, it'll be hard to get that role. But he won't be a good guy either. He HAS to be a bad guy. I just really wonder where they're going with this...

126

Mike D
Donor
ID: 40420258
Mon, Jul 15, 2002, 06:21

I don't think HHH was going to join. I think he was going to turn them down, and feud with them. But, now that Nash is out, he'll probably join then. They need him bad.

Amazing the way injuries can open the door for others in sports (entertainment). ;)

127

Tree
ID: 4310343
Mon, Jul 15, 2002, 07:03

i don't see HHH going heel. as i've said, they need faces BAD. the rock is, for all intents and purposes, gone. so is stone cold. they need a face to sell tix. hogan is gone within a year. HHH will feud with the NWO.

Tree

128

Eville
ID: 14452917
Mon, Jul 15, 2002, 12:26

That's all true but hasn't Taker been leaning face for the last few weeks. I see Taker playing the semi-face HHH was, and HHH joining NWO which would mean moving to RAW where they need some life.

129

Species
Sustainer
ID: 304521510
Mon, Jul 15, 2002, 17:35

Great thread guys. I don't get to watch as much WWE as I once did, so the commentary is great.

I kind of agree with Mike D. on HHH. The snippet I recently saw had Shawn 'threatening' HHH in that he had better be loyal blah blah blah "or else".....so I agree that he turns on them and fueds with them.

I have to agree that decent faces are severely lacking. When Undertaker was nice to Jeff Hardy it seemed like a change to face was coming. Too bad --- the whole indestructable force thing was kinda cool.

It was funny watching the 2 Tough Enough's start that match vs. Bradshaw/Trish. The chick got booed out of the ring practically she looked so bad in the beginning.

130

The Left Wings
ID: 760719
Mon, Jul 15, 2002, 22:20

Forget the NWO -- it's gone now. Eric Bischoff is now given control of the Raw brand, with "unqualified confidence" from Vince McMahon.

Go figure. I don't understand why they got rid of the NWO. Perhaps Bischoff doesn't like it. Perhaps Shawn Michaels and Nash got fired. Anybody has any inside news?

131

blue hen, almighty
Leader
ID: 27048221
Tue, Jul 16, 2002, 02:18

I think it was fairly obvious from our discussions above. They weren't going to survive without Nash. When you've got an awkward buffoon and a cruiserweight as your only wrestlers, you're hardly a viable faction. Perhaps HHH will indeed give them a kick start, but I can't see him co-existing with HBK. Heh, maybe it could work. Show would be a better pawn for Trips than Rikishi was.

I think Bischoff could be a good new angle. Further separation of the brands. But which is good and which is bad? Obviously, Bisch has been bad so far and will remain so, but does that make Smackdown "good"? Of course not. I'm actually looking to see how this plays out.

Hey! I got a ticket for Raw on August 12th. There's a Smackdown on the 13th, tickets on sale Saturday.

I hope the WWE got a crapload of cash for helping out Busta Rhymes. I actually liked him in Finding Forrester.

132

Mr. Budweiser
ID: 56521812
Thu, Jul 18, 2002, 13:18

The Queen of the WWE (no, I don't mean Goldust ;) ) is finally back to her rightful place----on T.V.!!!

With Stephanie back, the WWE has nowhere to go but up IMHO and her interactions with Bischoff should make for some really good storylines if they play it right. I suppose with Steph back, this means that Vince will be taking a couple months off. He deserves it!

133

Tree
ID: 599393013
Thu, Jul 18, 2002, 13:57

am i the only one who thinks Steph's time on tv before was a direct correlation with the downhill slide of the WWF begun last year?

Tree

134

Mr. Budweiser
ID: 56521812
Thu, Jul 18, 2002, 14:27

Tree,
I have to admit that Steph has had her share of blame in the falling of WWE's ratings. However, to be fair, I believe she's now going to be playing a "face" role. Let's give the goddess the benefit of the doubt while we see what direction WWE goes from here.

And by the way, re-resurrecting the WCW brand is a must now!

135

The Left Wings
ID: 760719
Thu, Jul 18, 2002, 17:27

Thanks guys for spoiling it for me.
But by seeing Shane on Monday, my guess had been that Steph would have something to do with Smackdown.

I don't know about you guys, but I think the Invasion of WCW/ECW was pretty good. It was what happened afterwards that sucked. Flair vs McMahon was okay, but not that good. But everything after McMahon won back 100% control of the company plain sucked.

136

Tree
ID: 599393013
Thu, Jul 18, 2002, 17:37

the invasion angle certainly would have worked better had bischoff led the wcw troops back then. but ultimately, what failed, is that there was no goldberg, no steiner, no sting. i think booker t is one of the most underrated rasslers (excluding high flyers like jerry lynn - they're ALL underrated) around, but he just wasn't a big enough star to lead the invasion...

steph, to me, will be even worse as a face. sure, i love watching over and over as her disgustingly huge breasts fall out everytime HHH attacks her. bit as a heel, at least you had a reason to hate her - she was a heel!

but now she'll be annoying, and a face, and that's bad. her job at the wwf is as head writer. i do not believe that you can be an on camera personality, and be head writer at the same time. we saw it with steph, we saw it with vince russon in wcw.

just my opinions,

Tree

137

The Left Wings
ID: 760719
Thu, Jul 18, 2002, 17:48

Why not? Tina Faye does it pretty darn well for Saturday Night Live? She cute and funny...

138

Great One
Donor
ID: 206261522
Mon, Jul 22, 2002, 13:01

Any thoughts on Vengeance? I enjoyed it.

Like where the Canadian angle is headed? -
more surprised by a lack of a turn by Edge, so that was a way to surprise the viewer I guess.
Benoit and Edge (and Val) are still viable additions, I guess, to this growing faction.

Booker T put on a good show, and as someone predicted last winter (anyone remember who?) - Booker WILL be a star, and he is definitely putting it all together right now.

D-X? eh, well, okay, I guess I would like to see it. The way I see it now is that HHH is a single guy again and is now out with his old running buddies - on the loose again, not tied down in a way- so it works kind of well in that respect.

139

Tree
ID: 599393013
Mon, Jul 22, 2002, 13:29

as i said, there's a shortage of faces, so i didn't see Edge turning...

benoit is in a good angle with guerrero, so unless they wanna turn Eddy face (which may not be a bad idea - it seems silly to waste benoit and eddy in a tag team), i dont see benoit turning...

venis maybe - he's a man without a program...

the canadian contigency does have 4 guys now - Storm, Christian, Test, and Jericho. As we've seen with the NWO and others, once you get over four guys, it starts to get confusing and bloated...

maybe, i could see benoit joining - but like i said, to turn eddy face...

Tree
rasslin' junkie

140

Mr. Budweiser
ID: 386362212
Mon, Jul 22, 2002, 13:43

Finally....the Rock is the WWE Undisputed Champion!!!! Although I like the Rock as Champ, I seriously dislike him winning the title without pinning the titleholder.

141

Great One
Donor
ID: 206261522
Mon, Jul 22, 2002, 13:50

4 guys is a good, tight number - you have your obligatory Big Man, Tag Team, and a Leader... maybe a 5th guy could be worked in for mid level cruiserweight action(like xpac in DX/NWO)especially being on Smackdown and all - but beyond that, I would say its a solid group not in need of much tweaking.

don't forget that Storm and Christian were both halves of two of the greatest tag teams ever with Credible and Edge respectively. So they have credibility.

142

Great One
Donor
ID: 206261522
Mon, Jul 22, 2002, 13:52

oh, and I am the Great One btw, so that makes me the current Champion! so congrats to me! :)

143

Tree
ID: 599393013
Mon, Jul 22, 2002, 13:53

an old ECW-style trick...

but assured, i see it playing out like this...
The Rock, who i think breaks the WWF/E record for most times holding the world title with this win, loses at summerslam to brock lesner. they've built lesner to be a monster, and he can't lose to the rock.

the destroys the rock, which allows him to go into the sunset and make more movies...

EVERYONE makes runs at Brock, face and heel. Hulk. HHH. Edge. Benoit. RVD. Eddy. the UT. even the Hardys.

and they all get smoked. and then. one night, at a PPV, while brock is celebrating a win - perhaps over HHH, at the end of defeating a string of people, a familiar face, and fellow monster, comes running out from the back, and Goldberg levels Brock with a bruising clothesline...

and they both continue to be monsters, destroying everyone in their path. Until, next march/april, Brock vs. Goldberg for the world title.

they may both be plodding monsters, but both can work, and both seem to be seriously into their jobs. that is a fued, and match, i'd love to see...

and i'm a huge fan of the high flyers like American Dragon, Amazing Red, the SAT, and that whole ilk, so that's saying something...

Tree

144

C.C.SOLDIERS
ID: 45242819
Mon, Jul 22, 2002, 14:18

^^^^^^^Well, it looks great on paper.

145

blue hen, almighty
ID: 473133021
Mon, Jul 22, 2002, 18:19

That's just too much, Tree. I like it but I don't see it happening. While Goldberg might return and while Brock/Goldberg is already sounding exciting, I just don't see it that way.

I didn't think Edge would turn either. Too many heels, not enough faces. But see my comments above about why he probably SHOULD turn. Jericho would be a good leader, and while I like the face Val better than the heel, I think they need a solid midcarder (other than Test). Storm and Christian are just too small, and that sucks.

Why are they so afraid to change names? Maybe Val could become Charles Cousineau and join the Canucks.

I don't like that they are called the "anti-americans". Are other announcers doing that or just Tazz and Cole?

Screw the NWO. Now they have a mouthpiece (HBK), heavyweight (HHH), cruiserweight (XPac), and midcarder/heavyweight (Show). It just doesn't feel right to me.

Eddy is great as a bad guy. Leave him there. But I'd like to see Benoit go face as a singles wrestler.

I'm sure there's a Flair/Hogan match brewing, despite the brand difference.

I don't mind Spike and Bubba as the Dudleys, especially if DVon can find himself. But I don't like Farooq solo... reunite the APA, PLEASE.

Steph is lousy. Even Foley would have been a better pick. Hell, I wouldn't have minded Shane. Shane can be a face. Stephanie cannot.

146

The Left Wings
ID: 760719
Mon, Jul 22, 2002, 18:27

But I miss Steph...

147

Mike D
Donor
ID: 40420258
Mon, Jul 22, 2002, 21:38

They thought Bradshaw would take off as a singles wrestler. All that he took off was his APA shirt.

148

The Left Wings
ID: 760719
Mon, Jul 22, 2002, 23:18

Alright... why would they want HHH to feud with Shawn Michaels? I don't get it. The fans obviously liked the idea of brining back the Degeneration X. I guess the failure that was NWO kind of prevented that from happening.

It was shocking for those of us who didn't have inside scoops. It's also mind-boggling. I would imagine that they could have sold a whole load of new DX t-shirts.

149

blue hen, almighty
Leader
ID: 27048221
Tue, Jul 23, 2002, 03:14

I was hoping for the RunDMC version of the DX theme. Seriously, how the hell is Shawn going to wrestle? He could barely take a pedigree. And now he can't bring in Brock to kick Hunter's ass. And I'll say it again - who the hell is the heel?

I thought about something else today... If Sarge can be a representative of Iraq, why can't Flair be a representative of Canada? Or why can't Kidman be Canadian? He looks like Bret anyway.

This is crap. It's nice seeing Bischoff, and he's not doing a terrible job. But there's not enough reason to dislike him. Especially when he's feuding with Steph. They NEED a more active role from Shane, if only because it'll take away from his sister.

Anyone know where I can get old WCW/NWA tapes? Not just promo tapes, but like full Nitro episodes. I feel so left out cause I was never a fan.

150

Tree
ID: 4310343
Tue, Jul 23, 2002, 05:52

anyone who watched WCW before it went under saw both Mike Awesome, and more significantly, Jim Duggan become "Canadian" when WCW ran this angle two years ago.

Vince is desperate, and NWA-TNA is WAY worth checking out - Low Ki, AJ Styles, and Jerry Lynn are three of the best wrestlers out there...

Tree

151

Mr. Budweiser
ID: 56472412
Wed, Jul 24, 2002, 13:10

blue hen, et al
By the looks of it, HHH is turning back to his "heelish" ways. IMHO, he's a much, much better heel than he is a face. The original plan was for him to face Nash at Summerslam but of course with Nash's injury, that won't happen.

Meanwhile, though I like the Rock as Champ, it doesn't make much sense for him to have the belt for just a few weeks. With his movie schedule the way it is, he HAS to drop the title to Lesnar at Summerslam. Which leads to this question: Is it too soon for the Next Big Thing to receive his first title run?

Seems to me, the WWE would've done better letting someone like Benoit, Booker T or even RVD have the title before Lesnar. Dues have to be paid you know. I wonder how much of this is Heyman's persuasion!

152

Tree
ID: 599393013
Wed, Jul 24, 2002, 14:04

well, it's entirely possible for the Rock to lose the title at Summerslam without having to turn it over to Lesner.

in fact, it's a simple angle, and one that Paul E LOVES, and used several times in ECW - an old school, inpromptu three-way dance.

simple. Lesner is still feuding with RVD, and i don't see it ending anytime soon. during the summerslam match, RVD comes down and makes some chaos for everyone. all of a sudden, Vince comes down, and declares in Joey Styles stylee, "THREE-WAY DANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

and elimination style (my preferred way) or pin-and-win, RVD gets the pin, and the strap, and then he and Lesner can feud over the strap for months...

Tree

153

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Wed, Jul 24, 2002, 14:15

Tree, to date all of your best posts are in this thread. I can't think of a more entertaining scenerio than you laid out in 143. Maybe you're in the wrong business.

154

The Left Wings
ID: 760719
Wed, Jul 24, 2002, 14:58

The way I see it now is that Benoit, Booker T and RVD are like the second-line right now. If they will be feuding over a title, it'll be the Intercontinental Title. The Rock, Undertaker, Angle and now Lesnar (and perhaps Jericho) are the ones who feud for the Undisputed Championship.

155

blue hen, almighty
ID: 473133021
Wed, Jul 24, 2002, 14:58

I hate all these three way and four way matches. Not enough polar energy that way.

Mr. Bud, you got me wondering about Heyman. Obviously, he's not Brock's agent in real life. But do they have a good relationship or is Heyman's role just to be his mouthpiece? Does Heyman persuade Lesnar much?

I want to see Brock and Kurt Angle in a real wrestling match, but by all accounts, my Olympic Hero will crush the Next Big Thing.

156

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Wed, Jul 24, 2002, 15:04

Does Brock have an amateur/college background?

157

Tree
ID: 599393013
Wed, Jul 24, 2002, 15:49

BHA - a GOOD 3-way dance can blow the roof off the arena. so can a good 4-way. ECW showed this. there are so many examples of good stuff. in a few months, after i get moved into my new place, if someone wants a tape, let me know, and i'll see what i can do...

MITH - thanks...that's a great compliment...i appreciate it..more on this later...

btw - Lesner has an extensive amateur background, and while far from undefeated, he was the NCAA 2002 heavyweight national champion. there are websites that show not just pictures of him in his singlet in amateur matches, but even yearbook-style photos that show him in a letterjacket, wearing, *gasp* glasses - yep, brock lesner can't see for crap! :o)

i've been a rasslin' fan for about 25 of my 33 years on this planet. my mom took me to see wrestling at Will Rogers Coliseum in Ft. Worth, Texas, because her dad was an old fan back in the day when NYC TV featured a show called "Wrestling from Sunnyside Gardens", which featured stars like Antonino Rocca, and she thought it was a way to "get to know" the grandfather i never met.

now she says "if i'd known you'd be a junkie for this crap, i'd never have taken you that first time."

i guess this is a good time to explain a bit of my obsession with it. i enjoy the drama more than anything else. great matches can, and do, happen. but wrestling works better when it's a big world of good vs. evil. angles, storylines, and especially ring psychology make a great match, or even a series of great matches, legendary.

it can even make a career. the ECW battles of RVD vs. Jerry Lynn from a few years ago define legend status. Ric Flair vs. Dusty Rhodes defines legend status. The late, great, Von Erich brothers vs. any evil doers, from Gary Hart to Skandor Akbar and all their minions was good vs. evil with a Texas twist. Dusty Rhodes vs. Kevin Sullivan in Florida.

man, i could go on and on.

booking for FUN, like i do with the goldberg/lesner scenario, is just fun. in a dream world, it would be a fun job. but in the real world, pro wrestling, other than the money, is a crappy profession.

competition, stress, and burnout are high. i'm not sure if there's a more "political" business out there - even politics.

and look no further than the old British Bulldogs tag team if you wanna see why wrestling sucks. Davey Boy Smith is dead, and Dynamite Kid is confined to a wheelchair, his bones turned to dust from all the crazy moves he did.

i love wrestling. but it sucks. still booking might be fun, and thanks again MITH. it made my day.

Tree

158

Great One
Donor
ID: 206261522
Wed, Jul 24, 2002, 19:30

i really want to find some old Tajiri/Super Crazy matches from ECW, I have one on an ECW DVD but it isn't that great. I remember some better wars they had. And of course I would love to get my hands on some more older RVD stuff... anyone with copies of this, or knowing where to get it, let me know! :)

159

Mike D
Donor
ID: 40420258
Wed, Jul 24, 2002, 21:46

My friend may have some. Those were electric. They often had a 3rd competitor, and sometimes a 4th.

"Su-per-Cra-Zy" Dun Dun Dun Dun Dun

160

Great One
Donor
ID: 206261522
Thu, Jul 25, 2002, 02:21

look into that for me Mike D, I'd really appreciate it.

The one I have is Tajiri vs. Super Crazy vs. Jerry Lynn, but it was below what I remembered from some of their one-on-one wars.

161

Mike D
Donor
ID: 40420258
Thu, Jul 25, 2002, 06:18

Will do. I highly recommend the Dudley Boyz DVD, as it is flat out unadulterated violence, with parts of ALL their ECW title wins, Devon v. Bubba, and lots more. I throw it in whenever the "boys" are over and there's no sports on. ;)

162

Species
Sustainer
ID: 304521510
Thu, Jul 25, 2002, 12:58

I unlocked Jerry Lynn on my PS2 version of "Smackdown - Just Bring It" and he sucks! My wrestler, "The Crusher", is unstoppable!

LMAO

163

Mike D
Donor
ID: 40420258
Thu, Jul 25, 2002, 13:22

No way dude. Lynn is awesome, you just can't control him. LOL. Seriously, he's got a ton of moves. My buddy and I have had some amazing RVD/Lynn matches, just like they used to have in ECW....

164

Mr. Budweiser
ID: 126182613
Fri, Jul 26, 2002, 14:09

A few thoughts on last night's Smackdown...

----Long live Queen Stephanie!!!

----Who, in their right mind, would want to wrestle against Rikishi knowing that at the end of the match, your face would be enveloped by his overwhelming backside? How much would it take for any of you to accept that? $100, $500, $1000?

----Tell me again why Lesnar should be on Smackdown and not Raw? When will he finally turn on Heyman? Or should he?

----Jericho vs. Edge in the steel ring. Now THAT was a match!!!

----Is Stacy Kiebler's administrative duties already fulfilled? Didn't she just get that job with Vince? And now she has to beg for another one? Uh, thanks Vince...I think! ;)

165

The Left Wings
ID: 760719
Sat, Jul 27, 2002, 18:08

Someone answer this: Why would anybody want HHH to feud with HBK?

166

Mr. Budweiser
ID: 66452913
Mon, Jul 29, 2002, 14:22

Mr. Wings,
No real reason other than to solidify to the fans that HHH will/has become a heel once again. As we know, HBK's best days are way, way behind him but if WWE is thinking about bringing him back to active status, why not use the notoriety (sp?) that a HHH/HBK match would bring?

Besides, as real life best friends, HBK can pretty much count on HHH to carry the match, thus making sure that any injuries to his battered back would be kept at a minimum.

In other news, who do you think Bischoff "stole" from Smackdown Thursday night? We'll find out tonight but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it is the incomprable Hollywood Hulk Hogan!

168

Tree
ID: 4310343
Tue, Jul 30, 2002, 06:12

i must admit, i'm a bit lost on the whole smackdown/raw roster situations. to me, it's just more convolution and confusion in the mess that has become the wwf...i can barely keep track of who the champions are - in fact, other than the Rock, who are the other champs? who's the IC champ? lesner? RVD? wait. benoit won a title last night, right? which one was that?

who are the tag champs? i think dreamer won, and actually held onto, the hardcore title last night. in all seriousness, i believe he is the 201st person to hold that belt - i read that yesterday.

on the other hand, i do like seeing some younger guys get pushed - it's the lack of that that helped hurt the wwf in the first place..

brock lesner, obviously. RVD. john "prototype" cena. the push for randy orton seems to have slowed though...

and the Island Boys...they're looking like some tough SOBs....i'd love to see a situation where Deacon Batista turns on D-Von, turning D-Von back to instant face and letting him team again with Buh-Buh, and then have the dudleys face the island boys..that would be nice and brutal.

Tree

169

The Left Wings
ID: 1668298
Tue, Jul 30, 2002, 07:07

RVD beat Jeff Hardy last week to unify the Intercontinental Championship and the European Championship. Last night, Chris Benoit beat RVD for the IC title with his legs up on the ropes for leverage.

We're left with the Undisputed Championship, the IC title, the Tag Champs and the Hardcore division in the men's side. And you split them in two shows. In fact, I think I saw all the titles appearing on RAW. What's left with Smackdown?

Now, who are the Tag Champions? Christian and Lance Storm, right? Why did they get rid of the European Championship?

170

Johnny Sue
ID: 4653013
Tue, Jul 30, 2002, 13:31

Wings,
They dumped the European championship because nobody cared about it anymore. It certainly didn't make sense to have around in the first place. (BTW, you forgot about the Cruiserweight title).

What WWE needs to resolve is a way for ALL champions to be on both Raw and Smackdown. It'll involve only 7 personalities (Unified Champ, IC Champ, Tag Team Champs, Cruiserweight Champ, Women's Champ and the Hardcore Champ, so that's not a lot to ask.

You don't HAVE to defend every title every show. In fact, less IS more! Just put them on both shows, making it fair for all parties to get a shot at a title.

171

blue hen, almighty
ID: 473133021
Tue, Jul 30, 2002, 15:30

I disagree Johnny Sue. I think seven personalities on both shows is a LOT. Plus the two GMs seem to have free range as well.

I like that they have distinctive entities, but I think there's too much movement these days. Is Stephanie a face? Who the hell cares about Shawn Michaels if there's no DX? Is anyone left on Smackdown? Brock Lesnar? Wasn't he on Raw? Didn't he move to Smackdown to feud with The Rock? Isn't The Rock on both shows now that he's the champ? Why doesn't Farooq switch? Are the Island Boys going to be a tag team? That'll make 3... The Unamericans with a Crappy Team Name, Chuck and Suck, and those two dude. Are the Hardys still a team?

172

The Beezer
Leader
ID: 23520518
Tue, Jul 30, 2002, 18:19

bh, being an ESPN guy did you get a complimentary copy of "Sex, Lies, and Headlocks"? Anyone else read that one yet? Looks interesting but I'm not sold on it yet...

173

blue hen, almighty
ID: 473133021
Tue, Jul 30, 2002, 19:58

I'm sure it's a top-seller on Amazon.com.

174

Tree
ID: 4310343
Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 07:09

the glut of wrestling books over the past several "boom" years became a bit much...Mick Foley's books were refreshing - totally breaking kayfabe, and showed just how hard it was to make it, hell, to SURVIVE, as wrestler when deluxe accomodations meant that your hotel room towel didn't have someone else's pubic hairs on it, and that a good night's payday allowed you to keep the heat on in your car while you slept in the backseat on a cold night in a field in rural pennsylvania.

then came the rock and chyna and whoever else, capping it all with Missy Hyatt's book - a wonderful tale (sarcasm) of who she slept with (name the wrestler, she slept with him, name the valet, she probably slept with her too), and a comparative study of techniques and...err..size...

if you're having one of those days when your tummy is bothering you, and you sit on the john 5 minutes more than normal, you can definitely get through her book in one...sitting...

Tree
gimme more coffee now!!!!!!

175

blue hen, almighty
ID: 473133021
Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 11:29

I've actually only read The Rock (did he do more than one?) and Kurt Angle's It's True It's True. Both were actually quite good. Especially Angle. It was interesting to hear about how they told him to slow down his moves. And it was REALLY interesting hearing about his failed career as a broadcaster.

176

Mr. Budweiser
ID: 2272113
Thu, Aug 01, 2002, 14:24

blue hen,
With all due respect, I have to say I agree in totality with what Johnny Sue said. To use Vince's phrase, "in the interest of fairness", ALL championship belts should be able to won by any qualified party on either Raw or Smackdown. Otherwise, why not just create a new set of champions for the Raw brand and a separate set of champions for the Smackdown brand? In my opinion, that wouldn't go over good at all.

Other than the champions themselves, no other personality should be able to be on both shows. As you stated, there is too much movement already and some stability is needed.

To answer some of your questions...

In my opinion, Stephanie is a heel in a face role. She was a great face during the time of 'Taker's abduction, etc. but ever since her and HHH ran the shows a couple of years back, the fans will always be leery of her---and rightfully so. She is a McMahon after all.

Shawn Michaels is quickly going to nowhere land. He, Nash and HHH could have done some pretty wicked things with the NWO but with it's desertion, Michaels has no role to play that's any good for him.

Lesnar should have never moved to Smackdown. I thought people were really starting to identify him with the Raw brand. But I do question whether Heyman and Bischoff could've ever got along. I think this is a major reason why Lesnar was switched.

Farooq? Unless he's with Bradshaw, nobody cares where he's at.

The Island Boys!....Now there is a tag team. If there were ever a chance for there to be natural six-man tag team divisions, Rikishi would be a perfect fit with them. I hope they do well.

Chuck and Suck....Got to admit WWE did some fine work getting these two over. Not sure how Rico fits into this group anymore. I don't think they need him now.

The Hardy Boys...Is Matt still around??? We've seen a lot of Jeff in championship matches (Undisputed, Intercontinental, European, and Hardcore) but no such luck for Matt. Are they waiting until Lita heals? If so, see you next year Matt.

177

blue hen, almighty
Leader
ID: 27048221
Fri, Aug 02, 2002, 02:17

Heh, Chuck and Suck were fighting tonight. I can't wait for the Chuck vs. Suck match a couple PPV's down the line.

Stephanie looked really good tonight. Not terribly slutty, but actually pretty. I was waiting for her to kiss Stacy. That's about the only way she'll be a face in my mind.

Kurt Angle was great tonight, and Hogan was better than usual. They are clearly pulling Brock along. Them and Heyman. I'm actually glad Heyman's around now. Never thought I'd say that.

And Kurt was right - he would school Brock in real wrestling.

I definitely agree with you on the Raw is Brock issue. Raw was the RVD/Lesnar/NWO (and Austin) brand, and Smackdown was the Y2J/Edge/Rock brand. Moving Brock and Y2J wasn't too smart, in my opinion.

Alright, one more issue... I'll be at Raw and Smackdown in two weeks. Anybody got an idea for a sign?

178

Mike D
Donor
ID: 40420258
Fri, Aug 02, 2002, 06:21

RAW IS GURU

179

Tree
ID: 599393013
Fri, Aug 02, 2002, 13:20

how about, since i'm confused by the whole damned thing,
"Raw is Smackdown...or is it the other way around..."

Tree

180

Mr. Budweiser
ID: 2976213
Fri, Aug 02, 2002, 13:37

blue hen,
Good thoughts! Undoubtedly my favorite wrestler/entertainer is Kurt Angle. He's got it all going for him and I seriously doubt there is anyone within WWE that could actually beat him a real wrestling match.

Chuck and Suck---and other thoughts from Smackdown....

Rey Mysterio has helped to seriously elevate the Cruiserweights hasn't he? Ever since Tajiri had the falling out with Torrie (what was that about? I forgot), he's done close to nothing. There are some wrestlers that are great as a face and some that are great as a heel. Tajiri needs to be a face!

Whenever I see Angle and Steph together, I can't help but remember the night her and HHH were apart and she, supposedly, spent the night with Kurt in that hotel room. Why did they ever drop that "angle"? Pun intended. They could have ran wild with it while HHH was disabled for 1/2 a year.

Ever get the feeling that somehow, someway Eric and Steph will end up in some type of romantic interlude?

Chuck and Billy need to kiss and make up. ;)

Hogan's best days are gone but last night's er, Tuesday night's effort was acceptable. Of course, Angle can carry anyone but Hogan did all right in my book.

I still say Rikishi needs to join up with the Island Boys and create a new stable. It'd work!

D-Von is decent in his own right but the Deacon---man, give the dude someone who he can feud with. Someone like................Kane!

Noble and Nidia.....what great chemistry! I really hope that WWE allows these two to stay as a twosome for a long, long time. Not only do they work well together, they're so comical at times, you can't help but root for them.

Eddie Guerrero and Chris Benoit joining Smackdown? C'mon! Wasn't it just a little over a month ago that Benoit joined Raw? At the rate they're going, all the former Raw Superstars will be on Smackdown and all the former Smackdown Superstars will be on Raw! That can't be right!

You need a sign? It has to deal with Rotoguru.com!
Something along the lines of "Rotoguru.com is Raw!" would do. ;)

181

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Fri, Aug 02, 2002, 14:27

On Angle vs Lesner in a real match; without having ever seen the two next to each other it's my guess that Lesner might have 65 pounds on Angle. Maybe more If so, I don't see how Angle could beat Lesner in a collegiate match. Anyone else wrestle in high school or college here? Angle's medal came in The Olympics, which to my understanding means Greco Roman - a different sport in numerous ways. So I'd bet that Lesner's 2002 NCAA heavyweight championship is plenty good enough credentials to challenge a Greco Roman gold medalist in a colegiate (the same style high school wrestlers compete in - only with longer 1st and 2nd periods iirc) match. Add in how much I think Lesner outweighs Angle, and I'd have to give the advantage to Brock. If they were to wrestle G/R, it would likely be much closer in spite of the weight difference, considering Angle's world class expertise there. Of course if my assessment of the weight difference is much exaggerated, Angle probably wipes him up in G/R, and might even have a slight advantage in college rules. Weight difference means a lot. Regardless, I'd give anything to watch those guys go at it in a real match of either style.

182

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Fri, Aug 02, 2002, 16:08

I have no idea how accurate the WWE site is with regard to height/weight stats of their stars, but thy claim Lesner to be 6'4" 295 and Angle to be 6'2" 220. If that's accurate, the difference is 1/3 of Angle's total weight. Considering Lesners body fat % can't be very high at all, that's huge.

183

blue hen, almighty
ID: 473133021
Fri, Aug 02, 2002, 16:15

Mattingly - good line of thinking but I disagree with you.

I wrestled in high school and college. I was a little too late for Angle but Brock was all the rage my freshman year.

First of all, Angle has a chapter about Brock in his book, and he claims he'd crush him.

But that notwithstanding - Kurt was a heavyweight in college. That means he probably wrestled people Brock's size back then. And no one really challenged him. Not only did he win *several* NCAA championship and the Olympics, but he won the Worlds too, and several Russian tournaments. It was indeed a different style, but it was a more aggressive style, and I think that would have helped Kurt in the standard style.

I don't think it would be much of a contest, but I'd love to see it happen in real life.

184

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Fri, Aug 02, 2002, 16:35

There is a SHW class in most NCAA competition, no? For that reason I'd think that Angle didn't wrestle too many people close to Brock's size in college.

Still, I only wrestled 3 years in high school (and oh man did I ever suck). I graduated hs in '91 and while I did pay some cursory attention to real wrestling in those days I haven't kept up at all since (though something I do miss). Anyhow, since you likely didn't suck in hs (because you went on to wrestle in college) and also because you went on I'm sure you have a better understanding of the two sports (collegiate and GR) and their differences and similarities. So you understand the huge handicap involved in wrestling someone a full third greater than you in weight - especially at HW. If you're right, I might (based on that and their respective levels of success in) look at Angle as one of the most impressive athletes to compete in any sport in my lifetime. I guess I have no reason to challenge you, since you're clearly more familiar with both athletes and their capabilities than I am.

185

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Fri, Aug 02, 2002, 16:39

I meant to add that I'd never considered Angle close to so impressive an athlete.

186

Eville
ID: 258112820
Sat, Aug 03, 2002, 09:14

MITH. It did seem like I remembered a Super HW class. As it turns out thats Olympic not NCAA. It was Chris Taylor who weighed something like 400# and got a bronze in 1972 that I remembered. I think he ballooned to 5-600# in professional wrestling before dying of a heart attack.

I noticed that Angle was NCAA Champ in 90 and 92 yet won the Olympics in 96. Apparently most college guys take a few years after college before they can get competative internationally.

I noticed Bruce Baumgartner medaled in super Hwt for 4 consecutive olympics from 1984 to 1996. So age should not be a detriment for Angle. Actully you could argue that Lesnar a 2001 graduate hasn't reached his maximum potential wrestling wise.

187

Bond, James Bond
ID: 23625310
Mon, Aug 05, 2002, 16:49

Anybody have any thoughts on the Shawn Michaels assiliant? I'm heavily leaning toward HHH. Can't see Show doing it just for the sake that a Michaels-Big Show match for Shawn's return to wrestling just isn't going to cut it.

They have to give him a big name star and there's no one bigger on Raw than HHH.

188

blue hen, almighty
ID: 473133021
Mon, Aug 05, 2002, 17:03

Come on Bond, how dare you bring the topic back to "real" wrestling.

Yes, Kurt wrestled in Brock's weight class and he was easily the smallest in it. But I disagree with M.I.T.H. a bit on the size issue. As a senior in high school, I used to love wrestling the frosh heavyweights, because my experience put me on a different level. It was usually a fairly even match, and I won quite a bit despite being between 140 and 150. Weight is certainly important (size matters?) but it's very possible to overcome.

Yes, Brock has not reached his athletic potential, but Kurt won multiple championships as a favorite and Brock won just one, as a contender.

I also have to disagree with Mattingly about my own prowess as a wrestler. Yes, I'm probably significantly better than most Gurupies, but I'm hardly a superstar. I lost 11 matches in a row as a junior (on my way to a 3-16 record), and although I wrestled in college, I only got into a couple matches. My biggest claim to fame is that I was once paired up with fellow 119-pounder Sheldon Thomas in a co-practice between our schools, and he won the NCAA championship five years later.

189

Tree
ID: 599393013
Mon, Aug 05, 2002, 17:33

"real" wrestling is for wussies. i mean, hell, if a dude with a broken neck can win a world championship...;o)

who attacked HBK? honestly, i'm not sure i care. i hope it's AJ Styles. Or Steve Corino. or someone i give a damn about.

let's be honest. HBK can't really work a decent match these days. he'd have to majorly protect his back, and since most wrestling moves involve some sort of pressure on the back, i just don't see him being able to work at today's pace, even against someone who could carry him like mad...

HOWEVER...

i could see THIS happening. the mystery goes on for a few weeks, and ultimately it comes out that Brock Lesner smoked HBK. Well, HBK can't wrestle anymore, and since Brock will be the world champion after summerslam, it makes DOUBLE sense for Triple-H to go gunning for Lesner:

a. lesner has the world title.

b. triple-h needs to get revenge for his little buddy who can't wrestle. if you're gonna have brock lose at some point, let it be in a way where he doesnt lose his heat, such as having him take on HHH, then losing the title to him thanks to HBK's interference...then let lesner win the strap back a few nights later. cheap heat, cheap pops, and rating galore on the night after a PPV to see how lesner gets his revenge...

Tree

190

kev
ID: 11438306
Mon, Aug 05, 2002, 19:08

Anyone remember how the "Un Americans" after beating up Undertaker said they had "more business to handle"

Maybe they took out Shawn too.

But Im still leaning towards HHH doing it.

191

Johnny Sue
ID: 26738612
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 13:55

Bond and kev...you were right about HHH being the one who attacked Michaels. But outside of making it a temporary feud betwixt HHH and Michaels for Summerslam, what good did it do to have HHH do the dirty business? It should have been Jericho!!! Then, he and HHH could resume their serious dislike for each other.

Seriously, who will Michaels work with AFTER Summerslam? Nobody! I'm seriously thinking that this is the last hurrah for Michaels and a little "Thank You" parting gift from McMahon for all of Michaels' efforts in the past. I expect him to retire shortly after defeating HHH at Summerslam.

Other Raw thoughts...

Lillian, poor Lillian. By now, people should have it figured out that when Bischoff gives you three minutes to "entertain" him, the Island Boys will be there at the end to cause some serious hurt. Is there NOBODY in the back that will defend the likes of Moolah, Mae Old and Lillian? Wimps!

Y2J getting pinned by RVD? Oh pleeeeeeze!!! Nice way to continue burying the Ayatollah.

Goldust is as funny as hell. His skits with Booker T are the rage!

Test vs. Slaughter. You have got to be kidding me. Who cares???

Though they didn't win, wasn't it nice to see the Hardy Boys back together?

Helllllllooooooo Victoria!!!! You are Raw! ;)

Undertaker? We didn't exactly miss you wrestling last night. Tee Hee.

No Undisputed Champion Rock? Put that on the list of things that make you go hmmmmmm.

Overall, a very decent show. Lots of good parts, some lame but entertaining nevertheless. Good job WWE!

192

The Left Wings
ID: 1668298
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 23:29

Speaking of Test, I just don't think he can be an elite superstar. He looks so ordinary and nothing special. It doesn't matter if he has good skills. Nobody would be interested in watching him wrestle.

193

Mr. Budweiser
ID: 47759712
Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 13:19

Mr. Wings,
I'm totally with you on the Test front. Why they even try to push him is beyond me. He is not, I repeat, NOT an entertaining wrestler by any stretch of the imagination. Are we sure that this was the same guy that was going to marry Stephanie on that Monday night in November so, so long ago? What happened to him?

Johnny Sue,
I agree with most of your assessment of Raw. However you failed to mention that the blatant mis-use of the 9/11 incident by Lance Storm was totally off base and wrong to use! There is no explanation that can be used that will justify using the terrible incidents of 9/11 just to further a team's "heat". I'm all for a little fun at the expense of our country but THAT wasn't funny. Totally uncalled for!

194

blue hen, almighty
ID: 473133021
Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 14:14

I agree. I have quite a few issues with the "Angry Canadians" which is what they should be called.

And Test sucks. Can he be a good heel? He was a decent face, once upon a time. He carried T&A. Mostly, I think he needs a new name. And what better time to rename him Eric Rougeau, the lost brother.

195

The Left Wings
ID: 1668298
Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 16:26

I don't understand your rename of Test. What lost brother?
And naw, they're anti-Americans only. They aren't angry towards anybody else except the Americans. I wonder what sort of reception they would get when they come back to Canada. Reminds me of Bret Hart in his last days in the WWF. Speaking of that, does anybody know who was under the mask of the Patriot?

However, I think the UnAmericans just taught me how to be a parent though.

196

Tree
ID: 599393013
Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 17:25

a lost rougeau brother...interesting idea...but i dont think too many current fans would get it...maybe a lot hart brother...lol...

i believe del wilkes was the original patriot (doug gilbert was the "dark patriot" btw), but an injury ended his career. he sold the costume and gimmick to tom brandi, aka salvatore sincere, and he uses it on the indie circuit sometimes...

Tree

197

blue hen, almighty
ID: 473133021
Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 17:48

Jaques and Raymond Rougeau (how the hell do you spell that?) were the first Angry Canadians that I remember.

I'll go on record now as saying that I do not approve of the "UnAmericans" and that's not the idea I had above. I like people with national pride, but this isn't the time to be "unamerican" no matter who you are. Thumbs down, Vince.

198

The Left Wings
ID: 1668298
Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 18:48

LOL you guys gotta watch that Molson Canadian commercial, featuring "Joe the Canadian".

199

Mike D
Donor
ID: 40420258
Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 21:34

Eric Rougeau, the lost brother. Hilarious Hen.

200

Johnny Sue
ID: 38753812
Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 13:07

With the 9-11 anniversary coming upon us, isn't it time to turn Kurt Angle "face" again and let him beat up on the "Angry Canadians"?

201

The Left Wings
ID: 1668298
Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 16:14

Wouldn't Angle still be a heel to Canadians then?

202

Mike D
Donor
ID: 40420258
Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 22:20

Not to spoil anything for the left coasters, but tonight's Hogan/Lesnar match was extremely well done, IMHO. Lesnar is doing an excellent job as a heel.

203

The Left Wings
ID: 1668298
Fri, Aug 09, 2002, 03:00

Where did the blood that came out of Hogan's mouth come from? He must have had a small packet hidden somewhere in his mouth.

204

Mr. Budweiser
ID: 34728913
Fri, Aug 09, 2002, 14:18

I also enjoyed the Hogan-Lesnar match...along with most of the show. However, I must say how much I seriously disliked the run-in on the Cena-Angle match. It's okay if WWE is going to use it to further an angle on, say, next week's show, but not for that same show. Forcing them to wrestle in two matches is not right IMHO. We've seen it done before and I suspect it'll happen again but that still doesn't make it right.

Where's Rock been? Supposedly the Undisputed Champ is to show up on both shows but we haven't seen him all week. Why give him the title if he's not going to be around to defend it or show it off. They might as well give it to Bischoff since he's on EVERY show---whether we like it or not! ;)

Now I'd like to get a few of your thoughts. What would it take to see wrestlers such as Edge, RVD, Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, etc. to receive their 1st Undisputed Title? Is the hold by the likes of Rock, HHH and Undertaker so strong that nobody else can be elevated to their level?

205

blue hen, almighty
ID: 473133021
Fri, Aug 09, 2002, 18:09

I didn't get to see Smackdown last night, but I heard the Hogan match was good.

Honestly, most of those guys really aren't at the level of the others you mentioned, and part of it, in my opinion, is the lack of gimmicks.

What's RVD's gimmick? What's Benoit's gimmick? They're good wrestlers, and those two happen to be awesome entertainers. But try to tell your non-wrestling friends who they are. "He's the Rabid Wolverine." Huh? At least RVD has "he's the guy who points to himself." But the Undertaker has two very distinguishable gimmicks. Even if he sucks. HHH? He's the bad guy. I really think that, at least from the crowd's perspective, those guys aren't there yet. The Rock is the champion of wrestling, so why not give him the belt. Let's make it special when the other guys win. It's a shame Brock is such a lock for Summerslam.

206

The Left Wings
ID: 1668298
Fri, Aug 09, 2002, 18:19

Well, RVD does have quite a few interesting, unorthodox moves such as the rolling thunder and the vandaminator. I think he does have some gimmick. He's the guy who has really special moves.

I think Rey Mysterio's spinning kick around the ropes is awesome. One of the best-looking special moves in recent years.

207

Bond, James Bond
ID: 23625310
Mon, Aug 12, 2002, 14:49

I agree completely with left wings about Mysterio's spinning kick. It's new to WWE and anything new performed THAT good has got to be good for the business.

As far as what Mr. Budweiser mentioned, I'm not sure what it'd take to elevate the RVD's of the world to championship status. I mean, is it really fair that Vince likes only big men to represent the champion of his industry? Don't know. I do know that Benoit, Edge, etc. have paid their dues (if there's such a thing) and yet Lesnar--who has been with the company not even a year--will become the next WWE Undisputed Champion in less than two weeks.

Now I have a question to pose as well. Didn't the IC Champion used to be considered as the #2 man in the company? Wasn't it once used as a springboard to the main title? How come the IC champ never gets to face the Undisputed Champ at a pay-per-view?

From what I understand (and granted, it's not much), there are contenders for the Undisputed Title (Rock, HHH, Angle, Undertaker, Jericho, Lesnar, Hogan maybe a couple more) and then there are contenders for the IC title (Edge, RVD, Guerrero, Booker T, Kane etc.) As such, it would be a step down if the likes of Rock or Angle, etc. actually wrestled for the IC title, right? Thus, they are set for ALWAYS being in the hunt for the Undisputed Title NO MATTER WHAT! Is that right; Is that fair to all the others?

208

The Left Wings
ID: 1668298
Mon, Aug 12, 2002, 16:23

I don't think the wrestlers are paid more when they hold a title belt. It just means more work. You see, this isn't like boxing titles. It's all fixed, just like we all know that Brock is going to win the undisputed title. They probably have not much of a say in who wins which title (THE Survivor Series with Bret Hart), although they might have a small infleuence on their characters' development (but Austin is still driven away). So I think there's nothing as "fairness" in the business. You just go with how the stories flow. And if you happen to win a title, cherish it as it'll be the busiest and most painful few weeks of your life.

209

Great One
Donor
ID: 206261522
Tue, Aug 13, 2002, 01:29

please tell me some of you guys watched AJ Styles vs. Low Ki vs. Jerry Lynn last week... I know a few people mentioned the NWA shows but that match was absolutely the best thing I have seen in a long while and that Flying Elvis' match earlier in the evening was pretty good too... as far as Raw goes, it seems like the same old thing rehashed or something like that.

210

Great One
Donor
ID: 206261522
Tue, Aug 13, 2002, 01:34

and btw - Tree, I know you mentioned you have been watching these battles, you didn't tape the 3-way match did you? I really wish I could have taped it but I couldn't get it together in time.

211

blue hen, almighty
Leader
ID: 27048221
Tue, Aug 13, 2002, 04:16

Wow, just got back from Raw and a whole bunch of other events, the most significant of which was going face to face with the Great One. And I don't mean the Gurupie either. It's a long story (albeit a good one), so I'll tell it later. The highlight of the night was actually not meeting the Rock, but rather something involving The Coach as well as Johnny Damon. More later.

212

jones
ID: 90522912
Tue, Aug 13, 2002, 11:47

more on the Rock losing to Brock Lesnar at Summerslam...I was watching the late show with Jay Leno (who sucks compared to David Letterman) and Seann Patrick Thomas (I think that's his name from American Pie) was on there and he said in a couple of weeks he will be working with the Rock on a new movie...

213

The Left Wings
ID: 1668298
Tue, Aug 13, 2002, 19:43

Oh gimme a break. Jay Leno is wayyyyy better than Letterman. Letterman's getting so cocky now that he's getting older. I used to watch Letterman but grew tired of his weird faces (which he thinks is funny), out-of-tune humming and pencil tossing. Jay, on the other hand, is a really funny guy. He doesn't need to act weird to be funny. His sketches are great too, especially the headlines.

214

Species
Sustainer
ID: 7724916
Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 01:58

Steve Austin turns himself into police for beating his wife Debra .

What a shame.

215

blue hen, almighty
Leader
ID: 27048221
Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 04:39

Old news, Speese. And calling him a wrestler is a little out-of-place, seeing as he's not under contract right now.

Well, I got to see Smackdown too. I got a "Finally the Rock has come back to Seattle T-shirt" because I think I'm morally opposed to getting a shirt that says "You suck" on it. My friend, who knows nothing about wrestling, now calls Reverend DVon his favorite wrestler, so I guess they didn't play to the crowd in the right way. I won't give away any secrets (although there weren't really any major surprises), but Kurt Angle did quite well despite Mark Henry's lousy ring skills opposite him. There were several seriously injuries it seemed (even Benoit seems to have something fairly minor with a real limp).

Smackdown did add one to its roster, but he's out of place where he is considering recent events. You'll know what I mean when you see it. It was sort of a "Wait a minute, isn't he...?" moment.

The post-game festivities were lousy, although I was fairly spoiled by last night, when we got a Spin-a-roonie, a Triple-roonie, a Rock-a-roonie, and a Fag-a-roonie (not my words), and even a Mac-a-roonie (Vince), but no Taker-roonie (except one by Booker which was quite clever).

216

The Left Wings
ID: 1668298
Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 05:20

I don't understand what you mean by all the "roonies" other than Booker T's Spin-a-roonie.

217

The Left Wings
ID: 1668298
Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 05:21

Oh my god, Debra's 42 and Austin's only 36???
Yikes. I never tried to figure out the age of any wrestlers, but this is pretty darn surprising to me.

218

Tree
ID: 22758146
Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 07:04

lots of catching up...whew....ahhh, the moving process...

Great one - i've been in the moving process, and watching wrestling has had to take second fiddle. so, i missed that match. and i'm kicking myself for it. soon enough, i'm sure, something like rfvideo will have it for sale....

i've been watching styles for a couple years now, and jerry lynn for even longer. for those who don't know, without jerry lynn, RVD would not be a wwf superstar. lynn's matches with RVD in ECW are absolute classics.....

as for low-ki - i had the pleasure of actually seeing his in-ring debut a couple years ago here in nyc, when he was like 17...i turned to my friend and said "if this guy gets some size and gets a bit older, he could be a star..."

other guys in that situation now, who are very young and very green, but with huge potential, include The Amazing Red, and both of the SAT brothers....I saw Red's debut about a year and a half ago...this scrawny kid with a big red afro comes to the ring, in what is probably the toughest wrestling crowd in america, at the Madhouse of Extreme here in Queens, and got laughed at...by the end of the match, he got a standing ovation...watch this kid....

one final note on misterio - if you think his stuff now is amazing, find someone who has a tape of his match against Psichosis, from about 1994-95, a falls-count-anywhere texas death style match from the ECW Arena. you think you're seeing some moves now, watch THAT match...

keep me posted on wrestling as i spend the next 2 weeks moving! :o) fun fun fun!

Tree

219

The Left Wings
ID: 1668298
Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 07:30

A "good" match doesn't need to involve lots of blood, does it?

220

Mike D
Donor
ID: 4372378
Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 08:41

Left Wings-------Off Air Happenings from Raw (The Huge Undertaker Rib)

From Rajahwwf.com, submitted by someone in attendance:

"We go off air and Booker T and Goldust and Taker are in the ring I'm about to leave but taker Grabs a mic and Says Come SummerSlam I will Shove my boot so far up Canada's Ass. Then puts down the mic as if he ready to leave. Grabs it again as booker T is leaving then he says he has a problem with Booker T and he's going to solve it right now. he says The People In Seattle Want to see a Spinarooni before we leave so he does it. Then Booker T grabs the Mic and says I have problem with u too as Taker is Leaving The People came to see A TAKEROONI!! Huge Pop Taker is in the Turn Buckle laughing totally out of character. When The Rocks Music hits and He says The people came to see a takerooni and by god were going to see 1 tonight so booker is showing Taker how to do it 1 Step at a time. Then the Rock says just do 1 Spin. Bam, Time to play the game out comes Hunter. He gets behind everyone and says we need to see a Takerooni. Then he says out of 12 years in this business this is the only moment where u don't have any balls. Then The Unamericans come out and Test representing them tells The Rock we just want to see a Takerooni. Taker is saying something to the camera, can't hear it though, no sound. Then The Rock says all the boys in the back are at the entrance waiting for a takerooni. Then HHH says I have the balls to do it. Then The rock says if u do a Hunterooni and He does a Takerooni then I'll do a Rockarooni. The crowd the whole time starts chanting Taker Taker and Do IT Do It. Then Goldust grabs a mic and says do the dam thing already. So Bam No Chance in Hell hits. Monstrous Pop and out comes Vinny Mac and HHH Says we know about his balls and Vince says he'll do a Vincearooni. Then Goldust goes to the middle of the ring and does a spinronni. Perfect, almost as good as Booker. Then HHH says he'll do it and as he goes for he tries to leave only to be blocked off by taker. So he goes back down and does a HHHarooni and Taker then gives him a chokeslam and then runs to his bike and rides out of there chasing the Unamericans as well to a course of boos. So Vince grabs a mic and says Well we saw a HHHa rooni and a FAGAROONI (HUGE POP), now lets see a Rockarooni! But before Rock can answer Vince goes down and proceeds to do a Vincearooni!!!!! Then HHH Says The Rock has no balls and wont do one. Then HHH imitates the rock and says FINALLY THE ROCK HAS NO BALLS!!! HUGE POP SO THE ROCK Says he has balls and does a Rockarooni!!! Then HHH attacks rock And ROCK BOTTOM!! THEN A PEOPLES ELBOW and finally they all leave. Lasted 30 minutes to 45 minutes. Was worth the Price of admission. Funniest thing I've ever seen. Was better then RAW itself."

221

The Left Wings
ID: 1668298
Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 08:55

That's what happened after RAW? Ummmm that sounds pretty darn weird, but funny.

222

Species
Sustainer
ID: 7724916
Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 12:08

bh - can you confirm these Seattle RAW happenings??

223

Buck
ID: 52771412
Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 12:30

First time writer...

I love the wrestling/entertainment of the WWE. It seems like the "old school" ways of wrestling have gone by the wayside and the "new school" ways of entertainment have taken a top priority nowadays.

As far as Austin goes...he is still under contract to the WWE (as is Debra) and it was only a matter of time before he "surrendered" to the police. It's my belief that this is the first step he has to take in order to get back to the WWE---which I believe he wants to do.

Raw was a great show in my opinion. Triple H is trying so hard to turn heel when the people want him to be a face. He even chuckled a couple of times at Rock's comments at him.

Why must we have Fink back instead of Lillian? Is it true she's wanting out of the WWE altogether? She'd make a huge music star!

You guys have a lot of insight and I appreciate reading most of your comments.

224

Tree
ID: 599393013
Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 13:58

blood in wrestling...

man, that's a tough call. i LOVED ECW, and blood was a heavy part of it. but that was not why i loved ECW - it was the storylines, the angles, the work ethic, the combination of something totally new with something completely old school, and 1,000 other reasons...

there's a segment of wrestling fans, called "vampires", who will pretty much boo a match without blood. these folks worship garbage feds like FMW, Ian Rotten's Mid-South wrestling based in indiana, CZW from up here in the northeast, and XPW out in cali....i hate those kind of fans, because if you just get a boner from seeing blood, please slit your wrists now. you'll see plenty of blood...

that being said, there are a few situations when i think blood is CRUCIAL to a wrestling match.

1. the culmination of a feud. if two guys are supposed to legit hate each other, by all means, throw them in a cage and let them bleed buckets. and even if it's not the total end of a feud, if you're in a cage match, or you get creamed with a chair, you oughta bleed. throw SOME realism into it.

2. if you have a much that implies there will be bloodshed, send the fans home happy. last year i went to a CZW card where the main even was a "cage of death"..it was a steal cage with all manners of "plunder", as dusty rhodes would say, including lightbulbs and cacti and chainsaws and other sharp objects.

i knew it was going to be a problem when the guy who set up the ring picked up the "cactus" by its "spikes" and didn't flinch....that was not a good ocassion.

3. to get a guy over. Brock Lesner kicked Hulk Hogan's ass. made him bleed. now we hate brock even more.

and that, is my take, on blood, in professional rasslin'...

anyone wanna talk legit shoots or puerto rican wrestling riots? LOL...

Tree

225

Mike D
Donor
ID: 40420258
Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 23:43

WWE still has not officially confirmed that next year's Wrestlemania will in fact be held in Seattle, Washington as previously speculated.

Buck, keep posting pal.

226

bh world tour - mpls
ID: 46720151
Thu, Aug 15, 2002, 01:33

Species - everything in there actually did
happen, but a bunch of stuff got left out. At the
very end, Hunter is in the ring and Vince is at
the top (everyone else gone) and he looks at
Vince and says I hate you, starts to walk out of
the ring, looks into every side of the crowd and
says And I hate you. Then music, then gone.

After the Fagarooni comment, HHH says "You
can't say that!"

Vince said he'd do a Vince-a-roonie and Rock
says Wouldn't that be a Mac-a-roonie.

When Hunter comes out and they're
discussing it, he says "This is serious
business." Then when the Canadians come
out, Rock says "I thought you said this was
serious business."

As I said, I did manage to meet the Rock that
night, and he said the whole thing was
improvised, even the Mac-a-roonie comment.

I timed it at approximately 32 minutes.

Remind me later to talk about the postscript
from Smackdown... all 5 minutes (if that) of it.

227

Tree
ID: 22758146
Thu, Aug 15, 2002, 07:07

NWA - TNA...

just a holler for attention, if anyone *IS* taping these shows, i'd love to work on a trade in a few weeks. i've missed most of the shows, due to my girlfriend moving here from out of state, and our on-going apartment search.

i'm pretty much looking for the entire series, as a lot of guys i really like are getting big shots, and it's nice to see Ron Killings (formerly k-kwik) really stepping up to be a serious top dog....

i've got lots of classic ecw stuff, some east coast indy tournies from the mid-90s (including a tourney with a young Steve Corino and, i believe, but i'll have to check AJ Styles), some old japanese stuff, etc etc...

disclaimer: i'm pretty sure it's ok to make this kind of post here...if not, my apologies, but i'm a desperate fan! ;o)

peace,

Tree

228

Mr. Budweiser
ID: 97561612
Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 13:57

Not sure how this may affect WWE but I've heard that Ken Shamrock is not pulling his weight and may be headed for his release. If so, would Vince and Co. be interested in his services and if so, how would he fit in?

This was a very good week for WWE programming. Some very good wrestling/entertainment spots and some surprises as well. I'm looking forward to SummerSlam more and more. All but the Shawn Michaels debacle vs. HHH. Naturally, they'll have Michaels win but then what.

Angle vs. Mysterio....Tee Hee. Ought to be pretty good but Mysterio was anything but that on Smackdown!

Lesnar's leap to superstardom is becoming more and more mindboggling to me. Don't know why but I just don't think he's ready to take the role as "THE big thing".

Does anybody know for sure when Rock will become unavailable to WWE again? Sure would love him to destroy Lesnar but I know that ain't gonna happen. Undoubtedly, Paul E will play a part in Rocky's demise.

229

The Left Wings
ID: 1668298
Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 16:30

Seems like you guys liked last night's Smackdown, but I didn't. It was quite boring to me. Nothing much happened.

230

Tree
ID: 599393013
Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 16:46

shamrock had a solid, but boring run as NWA World Champion. Ron "The Truth" Killings has the style, skills, personality, and mic work to make the NWA title what it once was - on par, if not better than, the wwf title.

few people may remember, but it wasn't but 20-25 years ago when there was a controversy over whether the WWWF/WWF title was really a "world" title like the NWA or AWA strap, because the WWF champ only defended on the East coast of the USA, with an occasional foray to the Far East. Ironic, considering how things have turned out...

anyway, just a thought. While i have missed most of the NWATNA Shows (hello. tapes? anyone? bueller?), i've seen enough to know Killings is a break out star.

any yea, i'm enjoying parts of the WWF again. i really like Brock Lesner. The Hurricane. Shannon Moore. Mysterio. Angle. Edge.

ok. i'll stop. :o)

Tree

231

Mike D
Donor
ID: 40420258
Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 20:24

Mr. Bud, before Shamrock signed the WWE made a bid for him. He did not want to commit to the schedule desired by the WWE, and was looking for a lot less dates. One reason was to mix in MMA.

Assuming he hasn't changed his mind, he won't be WWE bound.

232

Mike D
Donor
ID: 40420258
Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 21:46

Former Tough Enough cast member Daryl has an auction going on eBay in which the highest bidder could go to Wisconsin and wrestle him. The opening bid started out at $300, and as of now, the highest bid is $70,100. You can check out the auction by clicking here.

233

Great One
Donor
ID: 206261522
Sun, Aug 18, 2002, 12:32

if anyone is around and gets all the pay-per-views for free check out NWA TNA's replay sunday afternoon 12-2... its an opportunity to check out AJ Styles, I am not even sure who he wrestles, but I am sure he will be involved. and The Dupps doing their version of Cribs in their trailor park is hilarious.

234

balls
Donor
ID: 193311316
Mon, Aug 19, 2002, 02:14

I would just like to add that Kurt Angle is freakin hilarious! I don't really watch the WWE for the wrestling. I enjoy it for the comedy(and the women).

235

Mike D
Donor
ID: 43749196
Tue, Aug 20, 2002, 07:21

Tito Ortiz vs. Ken Shamrock at UFC 40: Vendetta; Live From the MGM Grand, November 22

Shamrock can't get that MMA out of his blood.

236

bh world tour - milw
ID: 1719212
Wed, Aug 21, 2002, 02:34

Angle is everything they should want in a
wrestler. He's the best athlete in the WWE,
and he's an entertaining, engaging, and funny
personality. Without the brash ego of guys
who aren't even CLOSE to in his class. I
actually think he's a more valuable asset than
HHH or perhaps even the Rock.

I agree. WWE has certainly come out of its
tailspin. At this point in time, it's hard to
remember life before the split, which means
that they pulled it off successfully. I don't care
much for the "stealing wrestlers" stuff, but it's
great to have separate storylines.

I am REALLY looking forward to
Summerslam, especially Michaels-HHH and
the well-built main event (even though Brock's
not ready). But RVD-Benoit should be very
good. They've finally put guys like Storm and
Test and RVD and Jericho into places where
they have a purpose, and I finally enjoy
watching their matches.

Well, I'm off to Detroit tomorrow and then
Cooperstown. I'll be driving through
Youngstown sometime therein, and there's a
house show there, but I don't think I'll make it.

237

Buck
ID: 117332212
Thu, Aug 22, 2002, 13:33

Being a newbie, I hope you don't mind, but I'd like to get anyone's thoughts on the upcoming Summerslam card. I like making predictions and here's how I see it will play out:

Brock Lesnar will win the Undisputed Title over the Rock. Lesnar has yet to lose cleanly and with his great buildup combined with Rock's upcoming leave of absence, it only makes sense to have Lesnar destroy Rocky.

RVD will knock off Benoit and bring the IC belt back to Raw. If Benoit was to win then the whole Stephanie-Eric-Stacy-Dawn Marie paper story would be a crock. WWE won't let that happen. With RVD as IC champ, this will open the doors for Dawn Marie to be "fired" and signed by Bischoff. Dawn Marie and Trish Stratus on the same show??? Oh my!
Furthermore, Benoit does not NEED the IC belt as much as RVD does. He's already a main-eventer and they can easily plug him into the Undisputed Title chase.

Edge vs. Eddie Guerrero has the potential to be the PPV match of the night. Both give tremendous work efforts and both have the charisma and talent to get the crowd involved. With Hogan out of picture on Smackdown, the show needs an elevated face to take a more prominent role. Edge fits the bill perfectly and he should and will win cleanly.

HHH vs. Shawn Michaels looks like a serious mismatch. HHH should win...but won't. It'd be foolish to bring Michaels back after 4 years off and have him bump to HHH. Michaels wins this one and I wouldn't be surprised to see him catapulted into the main event scene vs. Lesnar next.

Undertaker vs. Test....Yawn. With Summerslam being held in New Jersey, in the shadow of New York City, WWE will have all the UnAmericans destroyed. 'Taker wins this one with the Last Ride.

The UnAmericans vs. Booker T and Goldust for the Tag Team Belts. See above. Hard to believe it's finally going to happen but Booker T's and Goldust's hard (and often funny) work will be rewarded with a tag team championship. Good for them.

Angle vs. Mysterio....Angle is by far the best worker/wrestler/entertainer that WWE has. He's not supposed to lose to the likes of Mysterio. However, I believe this may be the time that Kane returns to WWE and he will cost Angle the match. Mysterio upsets Angle with the help of Kane. Kane signs with Smackdown and begins a feud with Angle.

Jericho vs. Flair....Of all the matches, I'm not sure where this one will lead. Both have lost PPV's lately and both could use a win here. My instincts tells me that the Jericho bashing continues for whatever reason and Flair beats a bloodied Y2J to submission.

Well, there you have it. Hope I haven't left anything out. Interested to read anyone's feedback/predictions as well.

238

Tree
ID: 599393013
Thu, Aug 22, 2002, 13:41

good booking, but my one knock on your results is that the face wins every match in your version, with the exception of the World Title....

i think there will be more balance...with maybe Guerrero, Angle, Jericho, and at least one of the two UnAmerican matches won by the bad guys...

Tree

p.s. anyone have NWATNA tapes? i won't stop asking! bwahahah

239

Buck
ID: 117332212
Thu, Aug 22, 2002, 14:26

Tree,
Thanks for the thoughts. I do think that Angle will win his match IF Kane doesn't impede. Jericho vs. Flair is still the toughest one to figure and I wouldn't be surprised by a Y2J win but I'll stick to what I have.

By the way, why is there no Molly Holly defending her title at Summerslam? In fact, where's the women at??? No Trish, no Molly, no Nidia, no Stacy, no Torrie, no Stephanie...well, ok, there will be Stephanie won't there? ;)

240

Eville
ID: 577122121
Thu, Aug 22, 2002, 17:33

I'd have to say it's RVD that will get hosed. Possibly with Big Show interference after Monday. RVD is the one that doesn't need a belt. He is the draw. Watched RVD and Benoit in a cage match this past Sunday in Evansville. If that's a warm up this should be one hell of match.

HHH will win too. HBK will just look good and go out pride intact. HHH = Austin II (I job for no man).

241

bh world tour - erie
Leader
ID: 27048221
Fri, Aug 23, 2002, 00:12

I REALLY think HBK will win and also think it will be the "final" final match of his career. That's really the only way to do it. Go out as a face beating his best friend at a PPV (with no title, so he doesn't have to defend it later).

I agree. I'm 90% sure that Kane will cost Angle his match. But didn't we just see Kane vs. Angle earlier this year?

I agree that the UnAmericans will probably be squashed considering the venue. But I also think that it will just totally kill what has turned into a decent run. I'm actually going to go with Test here, and let BookerDust get their title.

I think Jericho will beat Flair, but that's just my opinion.

I'm going with RVD over Benoit, because, as noted, none of the Steph/Eric stuff makes sense otherwise. And I agree that the Big Slow might be involved.

Looks like we're going to get a DVon vs. Batista match. (Maybe on Heat?) Honestly, I think the break should have happened at Summerslam, rather than tonight on Smackdown. Then you've got your match set for the next PPV.

Will they ever reunite the Acolytes?

I don't mind "Randy Orton" so much - that name's got spunk. But "John Cena" should really go back to "Prototype" or perhaps even "Flying John Cena" or something. I hate what they've done with names lately.

Will there be a cruiserweight match at Summerslam? Clearly, Matt Hardy's in a good position to be involved in something right now, but it's a little late to set it. Don't Matt and Jeff still have outstanding issues? Didn't Matt leave Raw as a heel? Why is he a face now? Hmm...

242

Tree
ID: 22758146
Fri, Aug 23, 2002, 07:00

i always have, and always will get the hardy's confused. i'm pretty sure matt is the dark-haired one - and i'm pretty sure that after smackdown last night, he's turning heel.

he totally played a "glory hound" role, and that's a sure sign someone is going heel. i imagine he'll feud with the Hurricane, or maybe Shannon Moore for starters...

Tree

243

Buck
ID: 187282313
Fri, Aug 23, 2002, 14:19

Let me ring in with a few selected thoughts.

Matt Hardy's role sans Lita will always be far inferior to Jeff, no matter what. People just like the dare-deviledness of Jeff and his charisma is upteenth thousand % better than Matt's, in my opinion.

I agree that they ought to change John Cena's name back to Prototype. I'm not sure exactly how I feel on some personal names, but it seems to me that a new moniker would do a lot of wrestlers/entertainers well.

On second thought, even though he doesn't need the help, I feel RVD will re-capture the IC belt DESPITE Big Slow's interference. Don't know what to say about the Big Slow. You can't put him with the crusierweights (although if memory serves correct, he did face a slew of them in a match one time) and you can't seem to place him in a meaningful main event. Just what do you do with a guy that's "7'2", 500 pounds"? Yes, he's won the WWE Title once.....once I remind you....but is he a liability or not? If not, where would he best be placed?

Please don't get me going on the Devon-Batista situation. I don't see much there.

By the way, since this how my silly mind works, I have a question regarding the mudbath we saw on Raw Monday night. When Stacy threw Trish off the platform area, how long a fall do you think that was and do you believe there was any padding (besides Trish's..;) ) in the pool that prevented Trish from seriously hurting herself? Looked to me that just a few inches to her right and Trish could have been legitimately hurt.

244

Mike D
Donor
ID: 43749196
Fri, Aug 23, 2002, 15:51

Agree with ya on all those points, Buck. Not that far a leap for Trish, small amount of padding, but not much. Just a risky leap.

245

Tree
ID: 599393013
Fri, Aug 23, 2002, 17:49

considering she was landing on a slick surface, i think the potential for injury was great. it wasn't that high, but it was far distance was, and the landing pad wasn't exactly stable. a shallow pool is a risky proposition, imo...

and i think matt hardy as a heel, has potential. notice, he's bulked up in recent months, and isn't a bad mic worker...

Tree

246

Mike D
Donor
ID: 43749196
Fri, Aug 23, 2002, 21:39

Wow.....some amazing post-Smackdown (off air) happenings this week. This is the stuff non-wrestling fans can't quite believe. Yet it happens all the time, and not just in WWE. However, WWE has always raised the bar in this area, IMHO. You have to respect that.

Off-Air Happenings (from rajahwwf.com and wrestling-online)
-After Brock and Paul go through the curtain, Rock asks Edge back in the ring and both men's arms are raised in victory. Edge leaves on his music and knodded satisfaction for his performance tonight. He and The Rock exchange smiles and respect for one another and Edge leaves.

Rock gets the mic and says he don't feel like leaving Fayetteville. Rock does a "Finally, The Rock has come back to Fayetteville"!!. The Rock picks a fan to do a "If Ya Smellelelala, what The Rock is Cookin'". He chooses an 8 year old boy named Mitchell. Many thought he was just an ordinary kid, but in reality he was there as part of the Make-A-Wish Foundation. The organization sets up meetings with terminally ill children to have their dream come true before the big man upstairs call em up.

The Rock got the crowd to chant the kid's name together while his mother was visibly shaken. The Rock asked the boy, Mitchell, who has cancer, if he liked pie and the crowd went nuts. Rock quickly corrected the crowd saying that he meant apple pies and called the crowd 'sick!' The boy replied saying that he never had pie, and the crowd went nuts even more! Rock told the kid to stay away from pies because it will get his *ss in trouble every single time!

Rock notices that Tazz wanted to give Mitchell his glasses, Rock takes the glasses and then asks for a Mitchell chant at the count of 3. 1, 2, 3, (Crowd chanting Mitchell). Rock gives Mitchell Tazz's glasses and Rock said he looked Cool!. Rock says that we're all gonna smell what Mitchell is cookin'. Rock tells Mitchell to say it. Mitchell finally says.."If Ya Smellelalala What The Rock Is Cookin'!" Way To Go Mitchell!!. Rock was enthusiastic and proud of him for it!. Rock shoke little Mitchell's hand and gave him his left elbow pad as a souvenier. Mitchell's mother was so proud of her kid. Rock stanced the ropes and shrugs over the Undisputed title belt in triumph. After that, the Rock went ringside and hugged the kid's mother who was in tears.
Rock then shook Mitchell's brother or friend's hand and another fan who was probably Mitchell's father. The Rock then left.

247

Mike D
Donor
ID: 43749196
Fri, Aug 23, 2002, 21:43

Just a final comment-----Jim Ross says in his recent "Ross Report" on WWE.com:

-The Rock did an awesome thing for an 8-year-old Make-A-Wish Foundation member after Tuesday night's Smackdown tapings. The Rock took the youngster to the ring, and "created a moment that none of us who were there will ever forget."

248

Species
Sustainer
ID: 304521510
Mon, Aug 26, 2002, 10:12

I must say I'm thoroughly disappointed that you guys haven't given the scoop on Summerslam for those too cheap and busy to watch yesterday. I read a quick synopsis and have to laugh at one realization -- is it just me, or in PPV's is the wrestler who uses his signature/finishing move first always destined to lose? hahahahaha

249

Mike D
Donor
ID: 4372378
Mon, Aug 26, 2002, 16:42

Doh! I'd always wait for the other guy to do his finisher, just so I could be 2nd, if I was in the ring. ;)

I didn't want to spoil the PPV for anyone who may get the replay…….or is on the west coast……..or who taped it but didn't watch it yet……..

However, Brock winning cleanly with his finisher is kind of cool. As has been said lots of times in this thread, they need new blood to replace the likes of Stone Cold and the Rock, as the Rock will continue to be away making movies in the foreseeable future. If Brock would have lost, even with messed up interference by Heyman etc, he may have lost some steam, and wouldn't appear to be the dominating force he's been built up to be. If Brock won with interference, he also may have lost some luster. By winning with a well-executed countermove/finisher, he looks that much more dominating. Kudos to the Rock for putting him over. The "Rock sucks" chants were very surprising. How long they can keep Lesnar heel is very questionable……the fans love him, a la Goldberg's run in WCW.

HBK/HHH was more than a battle of two initialed wrestlers. HBK did a tremendous job battling and took a ton of bumps. He was in the ring with one of the few wrestlers he'd really trust. No heat at all in the RVD/Benoit match, which really hurt it. The match seemed kind of boring without any crowd impact, when in reality they both worked very hard and what is supposed to be the 2nd most important title in the WWE changed hands.

Crowd was surprised Booker T/Goldust lost, IMHO. Post-match heat was more like disappointment. Angle/Mysterio opener was well done, and I enjoyed it. Two great athletes. Test/UT was a snoozer. Edge/Eddy well done, but no buildup to the match, little heat, and just another match to me, which is a big shame.

More on Rock/Lesnar. I read today that after the cameras stopped rolling, the crowd went nuts for Lesnar. When the PPV went off the air, Lesnar raised the belt in victory and walked off. The crowd immediately started various chants of "Rocky Sucks", "Die Rocky Die" and "*sshole". The Rock got up and was visibly upset at this; he even mouthed *sshole?". The Rock picks up the microphone and the crowd is booing him. The Rock says Finally..." and the crowd boos even louder. The Rock tries again w/ "Finally...". I was reminded of the Raw after Wrestlemania when the crowd booed the Rock. The Rock tries a third time and gets through most of it.."Finally, the Rock has come back to..."
Crowd gets louder and the Rock goes "It doesn't matter where the Rock has come back to." The crowd is screaming "*sshole" at the Rock. The Rock says "Whether you like it or not, the Rock is the People's Champion." Some cheers, but mostly boos for the Rock at this point. And then he ends w/ "If you smeelllll....." and pauses and then goes "Sing-along with the Rock is over" and he throws the microphone down and walks to the back.

250

The Left Wings
ID: 1668298
Mon, Aug 26, 2002, 16:50

Looks like more people knew that the Rock is leaving AGAIN to make a movie than I imagined. I'd booed him if I were there too. The Rock is WWE's part-time superstar and I don't like him doing part-time.

But then again, by booing him, the crowd lost out on something that should be pretty funny when the Rock got up and ran his mouth.

251

Great One
Donor
ID: 206261522
Wed, Aug 28, 2002, 00:12

TREE! check out these photos of the Triple Threat Ladder match. I read on another site from someone who was actually there that this match was indeed the match of the year. Tomorrow night! too bad I have to work and have to wait to watch the replay on Sunday at noon.

and I have to add that while I have sung Styles praises since this thread started - Low Ki is now unquestionably my favorite wrestler. Period. Its settled. He is sick.

PS
good to see Kane back, but whats with the new outfit? its not the greatest to say the least.

252

Great One
Donor
ID: 206261522
Wed, Aug 28, 2002, 00:17

rajah NWA photos

253

Tree
ID: 22758146
Wed, Aug 28, 2002, 07:09

yea, those are amazing photos. i'm in the midst of my move, including schlepping stuff tonight, so i wont be getting the ppv - maybe the reply on sunday, but not sure if my cable will be hooked up yet...arghhhhhhhhhhhh....this is making me crazy! :o)

low ki, one day, will be a big time star. as i said earlier, a lot of folks, myself included, were at his debut. he's slowly building his character, which was the weakest part of his game.

Tree

254

Buck
ID: 20742913
Thu, Aug 29, 2002, 14:25

What a great SummerSlam!!! Exciting matches, countless acts of entertainment and title changes too. Brock is "the" man now but for how long??? I've heard that WWE may keep the strap on him up until Wrestlemania and have him then drop it to Kurt Angle.

I do want to point out the latest controversy (or in this specific case, controversy avoided) for the Unamericans. The flag-burning vignette by Test and Co., in NYC no less, would have sent shockwaves through the WWE for months, in my opinion, if it was executed at that time. Strange that Kane, of all people, would come back when there was FIRE nearby. What would have happened IF Test was successful in lighting Old Glory? I know that is was only a storyline to get people to harp on them all. However, do you suspect that there would be any reprecussions to the Unamericans specifically, and the WWE as a whole?

255

The Left Wings
ID: 1668298
Thu, Aug 29, 2002, 16:16

I don't understand your question, Buck. I, for one, had no doubt that Test would fail to burn the flag. No matter how much you hate a country, you don't burn its flag in that country if you expect to get out alive (even if it's just a show).
Nobody will burn an American flag on the show, and that's a fact.

256

The Left Wings
ID: 1668298
Thu, Aug 29, 2002, 19:31

And by the way, why did they get rid of the hardcore division? It was good. Why are they reducing the number of belts by so much? I don't mind getting rid of the European belt, but why hardcore too?

257

Mr. Budweiser
ID: 1881313
Tue, Sep 03, 2002, 13:41

Back from a prolonged vacation. Good to see that the interest in all things WWE hasn't fallen.

The recent trend of WWE to combine the Hardcore and European title and then to, only a couple of weeks later, combine the Hardcore with the IC, leaves me a little ticked off. Understandably, the European title didn't mean much (unless you was William Regal) but the Hardcore title had some serious hard-core fans behind it. I loved the Hardcore title and thought Tommy Dreamer (along with a selected few others) really could make this a nice title to have for those that are non-Main Event friendly.

I'm not sure that I like Brock as Champ but I think it became a case of WWE painting themselves in the corner since they knew that Rock was soon headed out to Hollywood again. Having said that, I'll agree that he needs to keep the belt until Wrestlemania to give his title run some serious rub.

After the looks of a very nice Raw last night, it seems like we're closing in on a RVD-HHH feud for Unforgiven. Nice to see Flair getting some serious airtime but really, does he have "it" anymore to be taken as a serious contender for the Undisputed Title?

Anybody like Undertaker going to Smackdown? Remember when he was first drafted by Flair to appear on Raw??? He was so upset and yet now it's taken him this long to switch brands??? Makes no sense to me. I don't ask for much with my WWE entertainment but please, please give me some storylines that have a continuing theme.

Have a lot more to add but I'll save that for later.

258

The Left Wings
ID: 1668298
Tue, Sep 03, 2002, 15:35

Well, when Undertaker was drafted by Ric Flair, Vince McMahon was the owner was Smackdown and Taker wanted to work for him. That was probably the only reason he was so upset when Flair drafted him. Now that both of them are gone, I guess it's legitimate that it takes him a while to switch brands.

But then again, all this show jumping is just too confusing.

259

bh in bristol
ID: 497582619
Tue, Sep 03, 2002, 22:36

I agree. Who cares? I do think that Brock going only Smackdown is good, because it gives us a second legitimate championship (sorry RVD). And it hard to believe that the UnAmericans are tag team champs (they still are, right?). For just a little smidgen of a little while last month, it seemed like the WWE had a long term plan. But now, I'm not so sure what it is or where it's going. Are they going to keep teasing the flag burning? Because that's going over real well. Undertaker/Brock? Blah.

In my opinion, they wasted one perfectly good opportunity recently. When they announced the "#1 Contender Series" Edge absolutely should have won. That would have given one of the top faces a legitimate reason to feud with the unstoppable heel champ. No one would question the feud, and it's about time they gave Edge a real push in singles. If it didn't work, then hell, it'll be about the same time the UnAmericans are breaking up. Why not have Christian vs. Storm for possession of the belts? Then Test tries to interfere on behalf of Storm, and guess which recent main eventer comes out to save his brot-- errr-- comes out to save Christian?

THAT is a plan.

260

bh in bristol
ID: 497582619
Tue, Sep 03, 2002, 22:40

And while we're on it... I want to see Bubba vs. HHH, which they teased last night. Not so much for the reunion factor (DVon is doing fine) but because I really liked when he stood up to Hunter, and I'd pull for him in a match (if I were a mark, which I'm not). I mean, he's going to be the big tough guy and then he goes out and beats on Molly and Chris Harvard? Somehow, I don't see Bubba Ray running over Mr. Helmsley with a car anytime soon.

261

The Left Wings
ID: 1668298
Wed, Sep 04, 2002, 01:05

I think Edge needs to put on more muscles like HHH did before he looks like a heavyweight champion.

262

Great One
Donor
ID: 206261522
Wed, Sep 04, 2002, 14:32

Low Ki video courtesy of Rajah

263

blue hen, almighty
ID: 473133021
Wed, Sep 04, 2002, 15:29

You guys should start an OT: NWA thread within our OT: WWE thread.

264

Mike D
Donor
ID: 46721308
Wed, Sep 04, 2002, 23:05

If I was local, I'd definitely attend this.....

The following was derived from WWE.com:

See the Champ… For Free!

Several WWE Superstars are scheduled to appear Wednesday at the very first event at Ohio Valley Wrestling's Davis Arena, 4400 Shepherdsville Rd. in Louisville, Ky. The show begins at 8 p.m. OVW is WWE's developmental territory. Admission is free and on a first-come, first-served basis, and free parking is also available in the area. Brock Lensar, John Cena, Rico, Randy Orton, Big Boss Man, Shelton Benjamin, Christopher Nowinski, Sean O'Haire, Victoria and Jim Ross are scheduled to be there.

265

The Left Wings
ID: 1668298
Wed, Sep 04, 2002, 23:09

What, the Big Boss Man is still around? Gosh I hate him. I totally hate his image.

266

Buck
ID: 51859512
Thu, Sep 05, 2002, 13:34

Gotta say that I absolutely detest the idea of a "World" Champion on Raw!!! Isn't that why they fused the WCW Title and WWE Title belt into one before and made it the Undisputed belt?

Now, don't get me wrong. I have no problem with each brand having their own champion, so to speak, it's just that it seems that WWE has took one step forward and two step backward with this move. If they never intended to have the World belt disappear altogether, they should have just been better off NOT creating an Undisputed belt.

On to other things...I agree 100% with bh in his thoughts about Edge. Who cares if he doesn't have the steriod-fest physique of a HHH? The fans love him, he has a great personality, he makes decent promos, he's willing to take some hellacious bumps and he's willing, unlike others, to job every now and then. The Undertaker notwithstanding, Edge is the fan favorite right now on Smackdown! If WWE is serious about putting him in main event status, what are they waiting for? What more can the man do for the company? A nice, long feud with Brock can only do him good.

Anybody have any thoughts on that serious flying-off-the-top-rope-into-the-table that Chris Nowitzki did Monday night? Though I personally don't care for him, he gets serious praise for pulling that one off.

Speaking of which....I would love to see WWE pull off a Bubba-HHH feud. Although I used to love HHH, I really starting to resent seeing him come out every 15 minutes or so. We don't need that much from him to know that he WAS The Game and he WAS that damn good!

267

Mr. Budweiser
ID: 11843612
Fri, Sep 06, 2002, 13:07

Buck,
You've mentioned one of my problems with WWE: its inability to keep its storylines consistent on a weekly basis. It is my #1 pet peeve with them. I don't really care that much whether a storyline is good or not, I just want it to be consistant all the way through.

As you probably know, we've had some very good storylines (for example, Austin/Angle/Vince, Rock/Hogan, even Stephanie/HHH when they ruled) and we've had some very bad storylines (Big Show, NWO, the whole WWF/WCW/ECW mess).

For the most part, the best storylines have been the ones that have achieved a bit of entertainment and longetivity with a bit of good acting and believeability.

This whole Undisputed/World Championship dispute reeks of nonsense, in my opinion. This makes it look as if WWE has no confidence in Brock and thus, doesn't believe he can be "over" with the fans. Considering who's on Raw, it makes one wonder just how much control HHH really has over storylines.

Now I wasn't able to watch Smackdown last night. (I taped it and will watch it tonight). So I'm not sure what Steph has in mind for Lesnar and Co. But with him being "exclusive" to Smackdown, they better use him good.

268

ArtemusRex
ID: 885970
Sat, Sep 07, 2002, 01:31

Great thread... but don't you think guru should make Pro Wrestling its own category... esp since this is inside baseball of all places... Independance for this thread... Viva la Wrestling!

269

beebop
ID: 4885164
Sat, Sep 07, 2002, 06:45

Okay.....did Billy and Chuck get engaged??? Or did they mean life partners for just tag team???

270

Mike D
Donor
ID: 46721308
Sat, Sep 07, 2002, 08:16

The wedding is next week, I'm afraid. I don't know how they can possibly turn that into an angle I care about....

ArtemusRex, we used to occasionally use the General Fantasy Sports Forum for Pro Wrestling. That forum is slow to say the least.

271

blue hen, almighty
ID: 524241121
Sat, Sep 07, 2002, 17:05

Some very good thoughts in this thread of late.

I agree - consistency of storyline is about A#1 in my book. But in some ways, I disagree with the feuds you've listed.

I "joined" wrestling as a fan the day Test and Steph got married. That was the first wrestling television I'd seen since Warrior/Hogan at the SkyDome. In the time since, the most successful angle I've seen (Kurt notwithstanding) is The McMahon-Helmsley Era. The best thing about it was that they seemed unstoppable. They had a huge stable that included the owner, the IC champ (when Xpac could hold onto it), the tag champs (hey, isn't that Billy?), and the World Champ. Plus RunDMC sang their theme song. I really loathed them, and every PPV I longed for Rocky or Foley or someone, anyone to come out and just kick their asses. But it never happened.

I didn't even mind the Invasion angle, at the beginning. A solid premise and some great potential, especially with all the new talent coming in. But after one bad main event (Buff/Booker) and some bad vibes (Buff), they scrapped that idea and made WCW it's own brand within the WWF. I liked when Shane was on Nitro and announced he'd bought WCW. But Steph running ECW? Yeah, right. Those first few run-ins, when JR and King weren't at the mic and it was just wrestlers running around with no commentary, were really gripping. It made me want to tune in to every single show. And I did. But then they said "we've got Survivor Series coming up - got to build up our big 10-man match." Bah.

Still, look what we've got today...

The UnAmericans. Wow, this is horrid. I was all for a Canadian faction, but this just goes beyond that. I'm waiting for Eddie Guerrero to join them. He's unamerican, right? Oh wait, he's on the other show. Why, exactly? The person I feel really sorry for is Christian. Storm and Test are at least getting some exposure out of this (especially Test), but Christian could be doing so many other things. Does anyone else think it was weird that they took the belts from Hogan and some other guy who Christian might happen to know pretty well?

Chuck and Suck. The ONLY decent thing about this is that Reverend DVon complained to Stephanie about the wedding. Whoever wrote that should write more. But then again, who's the bad guy. Speaking of DVon, does anyone else think Batista broke rank too soon? He shows up with DVon a couple times and then turns on him. They should have at least had him around for a tag match against Chuck and Suck. Oh my god! A tag match between two teams with gimmicks?? Not only that, but gimmicks that SHOULD be feuding?? Wow! Oh well, Batista will be a stud anyway.

Do Matt and Jeff Hardy still have the same music?

Just to clarify with Buck - I don't especially like Edge. But once upon a time, I didn't especially like Jericho. And now I think I like Jericho more than HHH. What is Edge? What's his gimmick? He can't be the rock star guy because they already have a real one (kudos for moving him to the other show). Seriously, his gimmick could be the savior. The guy sent from heaven to save the WWE from the grip of Lesnar and Heyman. With proper buildup (it's already too late, dammit), I'd actually be interested in that match.

Speaking of Brock Lesnar, why is he the next big thing if he's shorter than every one? Seriously, don't put him in a posedown with Batista. Sure he's wide and muscular... but come on. They should put him on a stool or stepladder for interviews.

Bitch bitch bitch. That's all I do. I guess I should put a paragraph or two about what they're doing right too. Bischoff has been sensational. I enjoy his character and it's even nice to see that it's helping the Island Boys get a proper buildup. I can't wait till they start wrestling.

Rey Misterio. I heard good things before he came, but now that I've seen him, I'm duly impressed. I'm not a big fan of the cruiserweight division (i.e. the distinction between small guys and big guys - I really do like the cruiserweights), and Rey has helped get away from that (although Rico is pretty cruiser too). Rey and Rico put on a good show.

Jamie Noble and Nidia. It's mostly Nidia, but at least Noble doesn't mess it up. Sticking to the gimmick with decent wrestling skills. A joy to watch.

Chris Harvard. I know he was a jackass on Tough Enough, but I've always liked him.

272

The Left Wings
ID: 1668298
Sat, Sep 07, 2002, 17:59

I'd really want to see the Island Boys wrestle Brock Lesnar (and someone else?). They are all built up as unstoppable, and I assume a lot of people are interested in watching people who are supposedly unstoppable wrestle each other.

273

Mike D
Donor
ID: 46721308
Sat, Sep 07, 2002, 21:47

But not in handicap matches. Kane v. the tag champs last week was a total embarrassment to the history of tag team wrestling. Couldn't they have put Kane over in a different way? Gimme a break.

274

blue hen, almighty
ID: 473133021
Tue, Sep 10, 2002, 15:47

Question for this group:

Hypothetically speaking, what sort of wrestling coverage would you like to see on ESPN.com? Please say something that would maintain ESPN's "Sports Integrity" in your eyes. For example, should the content be relegated to Page 2? Insider? Its own section? Should it have standings? Recaps? Just humor? What do you think?

275

The Left Wings
ID: 1668298
Tue, Sep 10, 2002, 17:49

Just headlines of big events, like "Undertaker joins Smackdown!"
Perhaps even a ticker of match results on the days with televised shows, such as Raw, Smackdown, Metal or whatever other show that goes on the weekend of which they keep changing the names.

276

blue hen, almighty
ID: 473133021
Tue, Sep 10, 2002, 18:00

Quote from slashwrestling.com:

So wait a minute. Billy and Chuck are ACTUALLY GAY???? This whole time I thought they were two regular straight guys who'd been caught up in hilarious misunderstandings and innocent situations that looked strange when taken out of context! Well I'll be a monkey's uncle.

277

E'ville
Leader
ID: 31782819
Tue, Sep 10, 2002, 18:30

BH. I would think a short page with the same type of critique and results that independant wrestling sites put up. Maybe a history corner for nostalgia. High level critique like that could put pressure on raising the bar on wrestling vs entertainment (and I do use that word loosely). Reader polls on the last program (Raw, Smackdown, TNN, etc) would be good.

Can't imagine ESPN associating with WWE. The only upside would be that they could have staff writers take cheap shots at Vince for kicks. But why spend money to help him promote his product.

278

Mike D
Donor
ID: 46721308
Tue, Sep 10, 2002, 21:41

Funny stuff from slashwrestling, bh.

I would think for a site like ESPN to "cover" WWE/Pro Wrestling it would have to be a tongue in cheek thing. I can't imagine a serious attempt at it. A sarcastic approach, like the slashwrestling columnist did, would seem to make sense. If done the right way even die-hard wrestling fans would enjoy it. The guy who occasionally watches and critiques PPVs has done a nice job in this area.

279

kev
ID: 11438306
Wed, Sep 11, 2002, 05:56

Tongue in cheek..... Billy and Chuck

Are we sure it's a tongue in cheek comment when talking about them?

280

Tree
ID: 599393013
Wed, Sep 11, 2002, 13:44

if anyone read the spoilers on what happened at the wedding tapings for smackdown, it's very interesting....

i won't reveal it, unless the masses appeal for it..

Tree

281

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Wed, Sep 11, 2002, 13:58

I saw that, assuming you're referring to torch. Sounds like they've turned one of their dumbest storylines into something that sounds like great TV entertainment.

282

Mike D
Donor
ID: 4372378
Wed, Sep 11, 2002, 14:44

Saw it after seeing Tree's comments. Tree had me more interested by his post than the WWE has made me in weeks/months. It does sound good.

283

Species
Sustainer
ID: 7724916
Wed, Sep 11, 2002, 15:39

bh - I agree with Mike D. That's why a Page 2 or other 'non-mainstream' section of ESPN.com would be passable. Tongue-in-cheek, humorous angle would be the only way I think it would work.

284

Tree
ID: 22758146
Wed, Sep 11, 2002, 20:12

LOL. thanks - glad i get better ratings than the wwf...i will say if you hate stephanie mcmahon, and like good tag team storylines, you'll like the results....

Tree

285

smartone
Donor
ID: 29135714
Thu, Sep 12, 2002, 11:14

i hate wrestling...

286

Tree
ID: 599393013
Thu, Sep 12, 2002, 13:26

then the WWE is PERFECT for you!!!

Tree

287

The Left Wings
ID: 1668298
Thu, Sep 12, 2002, 13:34

ROFL
How true.

288

blue hen, almighty
ID: 473133021
Fri, Sep 13, 2002, 12:54

WOW.

A very good week for the Fed. Lost in the shuffle is William Regal joining the UnAmericans. 6th paragraph in post 271. While I'm still not a fan of the UnAmerican angle in general, I think Regal makes a lot of sense there. If they toned down the UnAmericanism a bit and focused on being a stable, they might have something.

Obviously, I was quite impressed with the wedding bit. I was getting annoying with the preacher, but it all makes sense now. Clearly, Billy and Chuck are faces and the Island Boys remain heels. And since they never actually signed with Raw, I bet they stay on Smackdown and feud with the Scheming Promotions, and are managed by Rico (a la Mr. Fuji switching from Demolition to the Powers of Pain if you remember that).

Chuck played a better gay guy.

Is Steph a face now? She dresses much more conservatively, and isn't so whiny. Plus she's the best looking "WWE Diva" out there. She's doing a fine job.

Did anyone else find it interesting that the wedding wasn't the main event?

I think the main event did some good things for Matt Hardy (love the new music), but should he really be in the Main Event? Has Lesnar already lost his bite? He's short and he can't talk to save his life.

RVD finally gets his chance. Big deal. I think they missed the boat, and I think I'd prefer the current incarnation of Jericho over Points To Self.

289

Mike D
Donor
ID: 4372378
Fri, Sep 13, 2002, 13:13

Demolition to the Powers of Pain--------the Fugi double-cross------great reference. I still have a Demolition Action figure (Ax? Smash?) and used to take it with me to Volleyball tournaments when I played for Regional Champion "Demolition" in the late 80's. Yes, I was motivated.

They are indeed trying to turn Steph face, and I'm glad it's been a slow turn, because she was so far heel before that anything else would have been ridiculous. Trish is better looking though.

Good call on Regal. He adds a lot to that group, right away becoming its probable leader, even though he is the new guy. His past angles over the years versus the US give credence to the relatively new angle we have now.

I'm clearly a mark for RVD, so it's sometimes hard for me to clearly discuss his pushes. I think there are a lot of areas where he can improve in the WWE, but the organization needs to let him expore some of them. As a long time ECW fan, he can flat out be amazing at times, but it depends on how he is used. I enjoy his matches and am always glad to see him elevated.

290

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Fri, Sep 13, 2002, 13:26

Mysterio vs Angle was a great match. I thought the wedding took too long before the Islanders came out. The Godfather & Ho Train was kind of amusing but I might have switched on the Yankee game if I didn't know what was coming. Anyone else find it interesting that The Islanders were chased out by both heels and faces? Just protecting their turf I guess. Just found it strange that any common ground like that would be established at all.

291

Tree
ID: 599393013
Fri, Sep 13, 2002, 13:36

several important things happened last night, imho, in regards to the wedding angle, and other parts of smackdown.
1. for fans of tag team wrestling, last night was huge.
a. in Storm & Christian, we've got one of the most underrated wrestlers in the world, paired up with one of the most accomplished tag team wrestlers in wwf history. this is a good thing.
b. chuck and billy are now solidly faces, which is something that was missing from the tag division - a good, REAL, not ragtag face team.
c. the island boys have some serious heel heat, which is what happens when monsters destroy everyone.
d. the Guerreros - in the sim wrestling things i do at home (yes, i am that big of a geek), i have long paired up Eddie and Chavo, uncle and nephew. With eddy as a loose cannon vet, and chavo as a goofy "youngster", they've got a great thing going.

2. steph is becoming a face, and bischoff a heel. now, raw vs. smackdown is much more personal, and that, of course, makes it much more interesting.
this is why heels and faces chased off the Island Boyz - because it is now, genuinely an invasion angle, raw vs. smackdown. i find it interesting that WWF failed with a WCW invasion, and failed with an ECW invasion, but is actually managing to pull off a civil war type invasion.

and hopefully, as is often the case, storylines like this will give other guys more chances. RVD is over huge, but i'd like to see him eventually big a big contender for Brock's title. Tommy Dreamer, Raven, and Justin Credible deserve shots. it's hard for me to fathom that Justin Credible, one of the best mic workers and segment actors in ECW, is nowhere to be found in VinceLand.

my two cents,

Tree

292

blue hen, almighty
ID: 473133021
Fri, Sep 13, 2002, 14:39

Good analysis, Tree. I'm not really a fan of either Guerrero, but I think that's a viable way to pull it off. Benoit is much better right where he is, and that match with Angle will make the PPV.

Ditto on Billy and Chuck. There's a reason they're together, there's a reason they are faces, there's a reason they are feuding with the Island Boys, and they are pretty passable in the ring. I look forward to seeing how it plays out.

The reason this angle is working is because it's a true invasion. I mean, what was the harm in the WCW guys invading? Everyone knew they were under WWF contract. And people were happy they were invading. Hard to be heels, given that.

This is literally a battle for pride between Bisch and Steph. And we're given to liking Steph at this point. Bischoff showing up on her show is an actual transgression that we want him to be punished for. And Bischoff will always be a heel because we've always hated him. For once, this is the kind of angle they should be having, and I bet it's been planned for a LONG time, probably the day they signed him.

293

Tree
ID: 599393013
Fri, Sep 13, 2002, 15:28

i think it's been planned for a long time, and i'll bet Paul Heyman had a LOT to do with it. Heyman and Bischoff have serious, real-life heat between them, but Heyman also knows wrestling and storylines.

i believe heyman pushed for bischoff to be signed, and sold both bischoff and vinniemac on the idea, explaining the storyline as he saw it in his head, and using it as a way to entice both "enemies" to work together.

heyman, to me, is the greatest genius in pro wrestling history, sort of a mad scientist type. anyone who watched him in ECW, both on and off camera, knows this.

it amazes me, that 5 years ago, Paul, Vince, and Eric all ran different companies, all competing, and now they all work together.

man, i miss ECW,

Tree

294

Mike D
Donor
ID: 4372378
Fri, Sep 13, 2002, 15:54

The then-WWF tried to bring Bischoff in for their original invasion angle. Discussions were allegedly held, but Bischoff is a very, very busy man, involved in lots of different things. Recently read an article/interview with him (I think on WWE.com) that detailed his busy life. At any rate, no agreement was obviously reached at that point, so they went on without him. They've now tailored it a bit since times have changed a lot over the last year.

295

Tree
ID: 22758146
Mon, Sep 16, 2002, 22:24

quick explanation needed...

um, so HHH is now the WCW champion? um, i missed some stuff while moving and all, and a few other things....

can someone give me a *quick* rundown?

thanks,
Tree

296

The Left Wings
ID: 1668298
Mon, Sep 16, 2002, 22:30

Stephanie got Brock to appear exculsively on Smackdown, so Bischoff brought out the old WCW belt and simply gave it to HHH.
So, the undisputed championship is disputed once again.

297

Mike D
Donor
ID: 348261319
Mon, Sep 16, 2002, 22:50

LW, they weren't calling him the WCW champion before though.....it was just "World" champion. I think that's what "Nature Boy" Gurupie Tree was alluding too.

298

Tree
ID: 22758146
Mon, Sep 16, 2002, 22:56

well, i called him the wcw champ, because it looked like one of Flair's old belts...it'll be nice when he adds the IC title to his collection after sunday night...

nature boy,
Tree

p.s. was i the only one who caught buh-buh's homage to dusty rhodes?

299

Mike D
Donor
ID: 348261319
Tue, Sep 17, 2002, 00:26

I hate it when I can't post because of the west coast spoilage. I'll get back to ya though Tree.

;)

300

blue hen, almighty
ID: 52058240
Tue, Sep 17, 2002, 00:42

I agree Mike D. But I hated it when I got spoiled myself.

301

Mike D
Donor
ID: 348261319
Tue, Sep 17, 2002, 00:56

The message got through. Funny thing is, I'd have never realized it if no one had pointed it out.

The egocentric predicament: The world revolves around me.

302

Mike D
Donor
ID: 4372378
Tue, Sep 17, 2002, 09:33

Ah, now I can post this to Tree……HHH doesn't have a chance to acquire a second strap this weekend anymore. It seems RVD is now without a title. Could dropping the IC belt possibly signal an RVD win? Even if he wins, it isn't Lesnar's undisputed title, which seems to be the more meaningful one. I think. Hard to tell anymore.

Y2J goes into another PPV with no buildup to his match. Unless they totally rely on the past history of he and Flair, including past PPV. When are they ever going to learn though, and develop heat and interest for ALL the matches in a PPV? They rely too much on building main events, which often either don't need much buildup (Hogan/Rock) or won't matter how much buildup they get, they still will probably get overshadowed by other matchups (UT/Lesnar).

303

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Tue, Sep 17, 2002, 09:54

Mike D,
Re RVD and HHH, I assumed just the opposite. I figure RVD losing the IC Belt was done to keep HHH from holding two belts after a win over RVD. It looked to me like they staged a couple of upsets between those two recently to set up a convincing matchup at Unforgiven. That wouldn't seem necessary if they were planning an RVD victory, no?

304

Mike D
Donor
ID: 4372378
Tue, Sep 17, 2002, 10:42

On the surface I would agree, MITH. Their on-the-fly booking could be leading anywhere at the moment. But, they had to give this "new" (?) World title to an established star like HHH to give it any value whatsoever. Who's next for Lesnar, if he beats UT??? HHH has a way of coming back into the main storylines, and I'm sure his dating Steph has nothing to do with it (not). If HHH "loses" the belt to RVD, with interference from someone………(Lesnar? Someone else?) he saves face and goes on his new angle. RVD then has all sorts of new angles open up in defense of the title.

I know WWE isn't ready to make RVD their main man, but this would get him closer to the top, where they are lacking. This 300+ post thread has examined that issue many times over (lack of big stars). The IC title unfortunately seems to be way undervalued. It used to be so important. The #2 singles strap. Now, it changes too often and isn't given the build that it deserves, IMHO.

Will RVD beat HHH? Probably not. However, the WWE is still changing titles and angles rather quickly, and it is possible that it will happen here.

305

Mr. Budweiser
ID: 578371712
Tue, Sep 17, 2002, 13:38

Been away on business for most of the last week or so but here's some belated thoughts/questions:

***Wasn't the committment ceremony of Billy and Chuck one of the greatest WWE events of the year? I NEVER knew it was Bischoff under all that heavy makeup until he said "3 minutes". A great expose of how a storyline should be run IMHO. Kudos to all the WWE writers/actors/entertainers who pulled this one off. By the way, although they could have used The Godfather even more, it was sure good to see him back to his normal self and with "all the ladies". By the way, can Billy and Chuck now get over as a "face" tagteam?

***Beforehand, the Brock and Hardcore match really looked brutal. Don't know how much was planned but it sure looked like each guy seriously dislikes the other.

***What has happened to the mystique of HHH? Once a great wrestler/entertainer---either as a face or a heel, it seems to me that, outside of his still-awesome entrance and music, the majority of WWE fans are no longer willing to support him any further. Certainly his connections to the McMahon clan is well documented but it seems as if the backlash to his once-immense popularity is on a decline of rapid proportions.

***RVD. Didn't they already main-face him last year about this time? What has happened to him now that wasn't evident back then? Did he suddenly become popular? No. Has his wrestling style changed? No. What then? Why lose the IC title now?

***Y2J. Didn't his main-face run begin about this time last year? What has happened to him now that wasn't evident back then? Is he no longer as popular as he once was? No. Has his wrestling style changed? No. What then? Why win the IC title now?

***Bischoff. You can either loathe him or love him but there's no denying that he does get a reaction from you. He was a great asset to WCW and now he's proving to be an even greater asset to WWE. I applaud him for his outlandish ways, his charisma, his believable talents and his willingness to work for Vince (and his daughter) through thick and thin. Good job Eric!

306

Tree
ID: 599393013
Tue, Sep 17, 2002, 13:58

lots of thoughts here..

RVD - as an RVD fan for a looong time - check out his "matter of respect" series in ECW against Sabu - i like his renewed push. i think the push slowed because he potatoed a lot of guys in matches. also, wwf seems to do that - cena and orton are recent examples of guys who guy pushed, then held back...

either way though, RVD's push is back, and stronger than ever. I can see him beating HHH.

the problem with now is that the upper tier guys like HHH and UT are tweeners - they're not really defined well as heels or faces, and it's hard to get behind them.

RVD may be the most over full-time face in the wwf...they could set up a GREAT series of matches, with RVD and Lesner fighting back and forth for the titles. Paul Heyman likes this sort of match up. Until RVD suffered a broken foot a few years back in ECW, they were building toward a title vs title series with RVD and Rhyno, another monster like lesner...

the wedding angle - certainly one of my favorite moments in wwf over the past couple of years. it played out well, it built up well, bischoff was PERFECT in his role, and the locker room clearing - face and heel - to save their leader was wonderful. it played like an old ECW angle to me.

Brock/Holly - from what i've heard, it was a very stiff match, and a few mistakes led them to being even harder on each other. Brock respects the veterans in the lockerroom, but sometimes, when a work becomes a semi-shoot, you've got to protect yourself...

HHH - as i said before, people no longer have any idea if he's a face, or a heel. it seems to switch week to week. having a star as a tweener rarely works - i can remember it working twice.

1. in the NWA in the 80s, when the Four Horsemen were heels against Dusty Rhodes, Sting, et al; but were faces against the Russians like Ivan and Nikita Koloff
2. in WCCW in the 80s, when the Freebirds were absolutely HATED (as in, having stuff thrown on them and knives pulled on them) during their feud with the Von Erichs; but at the same time, they were also feuding with Devestation Inc (one man gang, missing link, etc etc), and the freebirds were the faces...

ok, my lunch break is over...

peace,
Tree

307

Mike D
Donor
ID: 228101822
Wed, Sep 18, 2002, 23:45

I never thought I'd see the day.....Pro Wrestling offered as a 1 credit college course. And in my home state! Check out this quote from the professor:

"We want to give first-year students the experience of scholarship," he said. "And this is a great way to do it. Wrestling is a reflection of American values. It's the purest form of pandering imaginable. All its officials care about is what will fill an arena."

308

Mr. Budweiser
ID: 24811913
Thu, Sep 19, 2002, 14:10

Tree...Sadly I did not know the RVD or any other wrestler from their ECW days. (I'd like to hear more!) In fact the first time I heard about "Mr. Monday Night" was when he showed up at Raw last year. I still maintain that if WWE (then WWF) had it done right, the ECW/WCW/WWF Invasion could have been the single greatest storyline of all time.

I sense now that an Invasion of different sorts is being worked upon. This, of course, involves Raw vs. Smackdown. I have a theory but I need some serious help. How many of Eric Bischoff's Raw Superstars have links to either WCW or ECW? And how many of Stephanie McMahon's Smackdown Superstars have links SOLELY to WWF/WWE? With all the changing back and forth, I lost count. I'm proposing that all wrestlers connected in anyway to any faction OUTSIDE of WWE, should be relegated to Raw. And vice-versa to Smackdown. But I don't know if the sides would be even enough or fair enough to fill both rosters equally in talent.

Back to RVD.....though I'm not ready to proclaim him as "the most over full-time face in the WWF" as you have, he definitely has the fan support needed to push him to capture the World Championship from HHH. Though he doesn't give a lot of promos, the ones he has done lately have been pretty good. With time, he'll be more than adequate in that field.

As far as HHH goes, I do have a serious problem with his match against Jeff Hardy Monday Night. Since the match was for the World Title, it would seem to me that both wrestlers would put on a helluva show. Didn't happen. In fact, I really can't think of too many Jeff Hardy matches where he looked so bad. Missed spots, timing issues, etc. along with an obvious unfamiliarity with HHH, caused this "championship" match to really suck, IMHO. HHH looked no more prepared for Hardy than Hardy did for him. Though I won't count it as a disgrace (they did perform some spots well), I'll just say it was an off-night for both guys and leave it there.

As far as HHH and UT, among others, being classified as "tweeners", I couldn't agree more. Fans WANT to root for both of them but the mixed signals they get from them (almost every show) causes one to become unsure HOW to lodge their voice. As least with Kurt Angle, he can play a major face or a major heel equally well. These two probably could but for whatever reason, won't. (On a sidenote, when Angle soon reverts back to his face ways, instead of "Angle Sucks" what will the crowd shout? I suggest the obvious: "Angle Rules, Angle Rules, Angle Rules". ;)

Have more thoughts to share but my time is short. Will do so later.

309

blue hen, almighty
ID: 473133021
Thu, Sep 19, 2002, 19:59

Angle is a crappy face. But he's the best heel they've ever had. Even. Including Ted Dibiase and Bobby Heenan.

310

Species
Sustainer
ID: 304521510
Fri, Sep 20, 2002, 12:57

bh - I have to agree on Angle. His only face value seems to lie in the whole "American Hero" image, like when he "saved" the WWF in the invasion angle. He is MUCH better as a heel, the arrogance factor weighs well, and comedically he is freakin' hilarious. The bald head/wig stuff had me doubling over.

I was also a huge Dibiase fan. I remember the very first Royal Rumble, where Dibiase "just happened" to come across the #30 pick and entered last. It was great.

Ravishing Rick Rude was one of my other favorite heels. I know we've reminisced about this before, but NOTHING was funner than him when he did this routine:

"CUT THE MUSIC! Now I want all of you ugly, fat, out of shape rednecks to sit down, so all of the fine ladies can marvel at the Ravishing One" (the memory gets blurry after he'd insult the guys, because I would always be grabbing my gut laughing....but I know you guys get the gist)

311

Johnny Sue
ID: 198172013
Fri, Sep 20, 2002, 13:38

Sorry blue hen, almighty....Got to agree with Mr. Bud on this one. Angle makes a great face and he definitely is NOT the best heel they ever had. That title would belong to none other than Vincent K. McMahon, Jr. Nobody and I mean nobody can play the heel like Vince can. Let's face it: not only does he know exactly what he wants out of a character's performance, he's a pretty good actor to boot.

312

Tree
ID: 599393013
Fri, Sep 20, 2002, 14:00

Angle is much better as a heel, because he is the classic guy who always seems to look like a buffoon outside of the ring, but in the ring, he's all business.

very few things made me laugh like the tiny cowboy hat he got.

as for the best heel the wwf has had, i'm not sure how you can overlook all the legends, like ivan koloff, stan hansen, larry zybyzsko, Superstar Billy Graham, Andrew the Giant, Killer Khan, etc etc, in favor of guys like Angle and even VKM.

there are very few guys today who stay in a role long enough to establish themselves. Angle and VKM certainly have great mannerisms as heels, but for me, they're far from the best ever.

Mr. Bud - if you can afford it, i'd strongly reccomend getting some old ECW tapes or DVDs with RVD, whether it be the legit commercial releases from pioneer, or more of the tv taping stuff from places like rfvideo.com...

peace,

Tree

313

Mike D
Donor
ID: 4372378
Fri, Sep 20, 2002, 16:37

Species, class post. You gotta stop by here more often pal.

I have to plug the Honky Tonk Man as a tremendous heel. He could sing, dance, and rassle, and the fans were all just jealous.....

314

Species
Sustainer
ID: 7724916
Sat, Sep 21, 2002, 02:27

Hey Mike D -

I'm around man.......I love the depth of the discussion here. Thankfully I just changed jobs so now I can watch some WWE on Mondays and Thursdays........until now I couldn't so I really had nothing to add to the discussion.

I too loved the Honky Tonk Man. He was SO over the top you couldn't help but laugh. Loved the shake, rattle and roll move.

315

Tree
ID: 22758146
Sat, Sep 21, 2002, 10:37

for those who love the honky tonk man, it's a shame he's pretty much out of the limelight these days, because he's still colorful.

one of the reasons you don't see him in the WWE is that there is some bad history between him and first cousin Jerry Lawler. and with the exception of Lawler's stupid ass power play attempt with the wwf in regards to his ex-wife, lawler is a well-respected member of the lockerroom...

Tree

316

blue hen, almighty
Leader
ID: 27048221
Sun, Sep 22, 2002, 01:20

I'm too young to remember most of those guys, but I grew up when Dibiase and Heenan were huge. Dibiase just seemed so unstoppable, but that was because of money, so it must have been the mark in me that felt that. But he definitely had a gimmick, a good gimmick, and he played it well and was also a great wrestler. That's what made him great. Heenan was just so dislikable, but I'd put Dibiase ahead.

317

Tree
ID: 22758146
Sun, Sep 22, 2002, 07:50

Dibiase was actually scheduled for a nice long run as a heel champion, but politics, like a lot of things, ended up derailing that...

btw - for anyone who cares - Ted Petty (most popular in his Rocco Rock character), who was a WCW and multi-time ECW World Tag Team Champion with partner Johnny Grunge, apparently passed away last night of a massive heart attack at the age of 49...

RIP Rocco, la di dadi, have a party up in heaven for us brotha...

Tree

318

Buck
ID: 168412312
Mon, Sep 23, 2002, 13:41

Great topic about the heels guys. Growing up as a kid in Missouri, my father always loved to watch Harley Race. Personally, I couldn't stand the guy. Seemed like he won every week. With all due respect to Ric Flair, I think it was Race that was the dirtiest player in the game.

319

kev
ID: 11438306
Mon, Sep 23, 2002, 15:08

My favourite heel of all time has to be the early HBK. As a kid, I loved the Rockers. When he threw Marty Jennetty through the Barber Shop window, I was shocked.

The brashness, the arrogance, the fact he had Sherry with him along with the fact he broke up one of my favourite tag teams made me want to hate HBK. To me, he was Ravishing Rick Rude with more in ring ability.

And do correct me if I am wrong, but I do remember HBK as IC champ not putting the title on the line in many Saturday matches. Always a story line I liked, as HBK would come out to the ring facing some no namer, and then getting on the mic to let everyone know this was a non title match.

320

Mike D
Donor
ID: 4372378
Mon, Sep 23, 2002, 16:32

Race had some great upper body strength, and he was a suplex machine decades before the Steiners/Tazz/Angle/Benoit/etc.. blue hen, if you never experienced the Honky Tonk Man as a top heel, I highly recommend a trip to Blockbuster.........man could he p*ss off the fans. He was awesome.

321

blue hen, almighty
ID: 473133021
Mon, Sep 23, 2002, 17:03

I remember the Honky Tonk Man, although I was a little too young to "get" it. He was cool, he was cocky, and he was bad. And he really sucked in Acclaim's Nintendo game.

Honestly, I'd love to watch some old stuff, but it's hard to wade through all the videos. I got a DX one with a half-naked HBK on the cover, and it wasn't as good as I expected. I'm most interested in old NWO stuff.

Anyone seen Ready to Rumble? I really like that one, although I was never really into WCW. But at least I can recognize DDP and Booker.

322

Species
Sustainer
ID: 304521510
Mon, Sep 23, 2002, 17:44

Mike D - I always used to keep my eye on Honky Tonk Man's face after he got through on the mic....to see if he would crack up. His sh!t was SO funny that even HE had to laugh after the fact. Can't you just see him or other classic heels afterwards in the locker rooms just busting a gut at some of the stuff they pulled? Must have been CLASSIC.

323

Tree
ID: 22758146
Mon, Sep 23, 2002, 22:09

Harley Race helped make Ric Flair. Race and Dusty Rhodes were the two rivals who made Flair the legend he is.

Tree

Forum: basePage 13027Subject: OT: WWE

Forum: base
Page 13027
Subject: OT: WWE