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| Posted by: Whitey
- Sustainer [47130129] Thu, Dec 19, 2002, 12:22
ESPN is reporting a 3 year deal worth 21 mil
Godzilla coming to US |
| | | 1 | JeffG
Sustainer
ID: 40451227
Thu, Dec 19, 2002, 13:38
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Good for the Yankees. I think he'll be a solid 30 HR 90 RBI every day player, probably bat 5th after Williams. At 28 he has some years ahead of him too.
This will however start the arguments again about the rich teams getting their man and the poor teams not having any shot at the same player pool. Did the collective bargaining agreement solve anything?
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| | | 2 | Whitey
Sustainer
ID: 47130129
Thu, Dec 19, 2002, 14:16
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JeffG - I think if the same rules were in place this year, the Yankees would already have Colon and probably would have added Alfonzo.
As it stands the Yankees are waiting and hoping they can unload some salary before acquiring Colon. I believe they signed Matsui anticipating losing Clemens and his 10 million/year. Now they just have to make room for Colon.
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| | | 3 | biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 5310281417
Thu, Dec 19, 2002, 14:28
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The yankees are scum. ;)
(didn't want to disappoint, with a lack of condemnation)
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| | | 4 | Seattle Zen
Donor
ID: 554192913
Thu, Dec 19, 2002, 15:50
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There is a line. On one end is Shinjo, on the other is Ichiro. Matsui is close enough to Shinjo that he can converse in Japanese with him, and even play a game of Go if he stretches. If he turns around, Ichiro is just a speck on the horizon.
You can have him.
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| | | 5 | quik_ag
ID: 577203014
Thu, Dec 19, 2002, 16:19
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as a yankees fan, matsui scares me big time. c'mon now, arthur "tuffy" rhodes was a japanese power hitter too. plus, his first name is hideki. i'm afraid georgey might have some hideki fetish.
i would have been much happier throwing 7 mil a year at tatis so that we could have colon and fielding the "dismal" outfield of white/spencer/rivera-williams-mondesi than watching our pitching staff continue its slide while adding what? another potential struggling outfielder? this guy had better perform...
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| | | 6 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 710321114
Thu, Dec 19, 2002, 16:31
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I agree. The agreement solved nothing. Why is it always the Yankees. They're like a GRT team from GSB if you know what that means. They weren't struggling, and while this makes their team look better, it makes the overall product look worse.
Orestes Destrade sure was great after he hit 50 homers in Japan.
Why is this thread inhabited only by people from New York and (sort of) Seattle?
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| | | 7 | Art of Monk
ID: 395332017
Thu, Dec 19, 2002, 16:36
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What will happen with Mondesi? I am sure they will try and trade him, but if they can't unload him, what he still get plenty of playing time?
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| | | 8 | beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 17414316
Thu, Dec 19, 2002, 16:39
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The days of GRT before the masses found out in GSB. You could build a dynasty in a matter of 3 seasons.
7 million for a guy that has never had 1 ab in the majors. This deal is almost as bad as Tino Martinez for 7 million a year.
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| | | 9 | Rogue Nine
ID: 301132170
Thu, Dec 19, 2002, 16:57
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Ahh GRT, I remember that. Yes, the Yankees do look a bit like them.
However, so far this off season they've only spent the money they've gained from losing Clemens. I have no problem with that. The Phillies signed Thome/Bell with their freed up cash, and the Yanks signed an unproved player with their Clemens money. So far at least this off-season, they've done the same as other teams. Also, the agreement is too young still to have much effect yet. Wait for next year's FA period, after the Yanks have paid 25-30 mil in luxury taxes...
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| | | 10 | J
Leader
ID: 49346417
Thu, Dec 19, 2002, 16:57
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I wonder how much of this deal has nothing to do with the actual player they're getting.
Now the Yankees are gonna start showing Yankee games in Japan (which will probably pay the contract off by itself) and advertising to other Japanese players saying, hey! look, these guys always win, I want in!!!!
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| | | 11 | Rogue Nine
ID: 301132170
Thu, Dec 19, 2002, 17:00
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Question: Matsui lead the Japanese Central League in HR and RBI's.... Central League? How many leagues are there in Japan, and which is the best one?
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| | | 12 | JeffG
Sustainer
ID: 40451227
Thu, Dec 19, 2002, 17:00
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Mondesi may be tough to trade because of his salary, Yanks would probably have to pay most of it anyway if he goes, so I do not think it is such a negative to keep him. He makes runners think twice about going for that extra base on a single to right, now lets just hope he can get his offensive production back.
If Mondesi stays, assuming no other moves, Shane Spencer will probably again be the odd man out in the OF, and probably behind Juan Rivera on the depth chart. Then again there is alot of interest in Rivera.
They have a similar issue with Nick Johnson and Todd Zeile both being a 1B/DH. Obviously if they pick up Zeile, they are going to try to move Johnson since he is a valuable commodity for his price and potential. The infield of Giambi, Sori, Jeter, and Ventura is pretty much in tact.
As for starting pitching. Moose, Pettitte, Weaver and Wells are most likely rotation locks. They have El Duque and Hitchcock on the roster and they are making a move to grab Cuban defector and free agent Jose Contreras or then take Clemens only as a fall back position. Certainly continued efforts to get Colon or Vazquez from Montreal/San Juan will even crowd the staff even more.
As for payroll trimming, so far the Yankees lost Clemens, replaced Stanton with Hammond and signed Ventura for less money.
Of course, one thing is certain that the Yankees are not done. Like Whitey points out, without the new union agreement, the Yankees would have likely added free agents and instead proceding cautiously to manage payroll, but I still do not see how this new revenue tax is making the poorer teams more competitive in the free agent market. It will be interesting to see how the Yankees try to trim payroll since many of the players they are actively looking for would earn quite a bit anyway and most of the players teams are asking for are lower priced.
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| | | 14 | Catfish
Sustainer
ID: 3710232821
Thu, Dec 19, 2002, 21:13
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Mondesi recover his production? He lost it the year before he went to the Yankees, wasn't exactly hustling for the Jays. Now he says just one more season before he retires, so you can bet he will coast.
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| | | 15 | biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 589301110
Thu, Dec 19, 2002, 22:32
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Mondesi showed a really good first half of a year in Toronto when he promised to take some walks. That was the last time he played worth a dang. Maybe someone will get the discipline mantra through his head, and he converts himself to a homeless person's Sosa.
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| | | 17 | J
Leader
ID: 49346417
Mon, Dec 23, 2002, 01:35
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because whenever the Mets sign someone, they suck!
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| | | 18 | RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 211013916
Tue, Dec 24, 2002, 14:26
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I had to laugh at the "woah is the yankees" speech in #13.
"The yanks were also forced to give up stanton, and mendoza two quality middle relivers and it looks like they will be losing clemens." Lets see. You lose 2 mid-relievers and a washed-up Clemens (dispite paying him 10 million either way). Wow, thats devastating. Think the Royals would be happy to only lose that? I think so.
The braves gain Ortiz and Hampton (severely discounted) while giving up Millwood and Glavine. If you think Hampton is a sure thing, let me in on the info please.
The yankees add the top two international prospects available, Matsui and Contreras for a total of 53 million bucks over the next 4 years (3 for Matsui and 4 for Contreras). Yeah, devestating. The "no sure thing" applies here, sure, but do you think the half the league is able to gamble that large a chunk of money away?
yankee management can always look great dealing with a stacked deck. (BTW, yankee management blows away all the high dollar teams, ie Balt, LA, NYM, except maybe ATL).
So maybe that is where the "why is it always the yankees" sentiment comes from.
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| | | 20 | Rogue Nine
ID: 4411482413
Wed, Dec 25, 2002, 15:47
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OF:
Hideki Matsui 6 million
Bernie Williams 12 million
Raul Mondesi 13 million
Rondell White 5 million
1B:
Jason Giambi 9 million
2B:
Alonzo Soriano ? (probably a bargain)
SS:
Derek Jeter 14 million
3B:
Robin Ventura 5 million
C:
Jorge Posada 5 million
Rotation:
Jose Contreras 6 million
Andy Pettite 11.5 million
Mike Mussina 10 million
David Wells 3.0 million
Orlando Hernandez ? (couldn't find it anywhere, I'm guessing its at least 4-5 mil, since the Expos didn't want to pay for it.)
Jeff Weaver 4.1 million
Bullpen:
Mariano Rivera 8.5 million
Chris Hammond 2 million
Sterling Hitchcock 6 million
Steve Karsay 4 million
And, if rumors are true, Clemens for about 8 mil.
Oh yes, lets not forget the 2 mil they're paying Henson to fart around in AAA. lol
All that equals up to 131 million, exlcuding Clemens. Hell, they're entire OF+Ventura is making more money than the Expos are being allowed to have for their whole payroll. (And isn't it convenient that the Yanks almost got Colon from us? BOOOOO.) Whats not to understand here?
A team that made such huge money mistakes such as Hitchcock, White, and Mondesi should NOT be able to afford Matsui, Contreras, etc. No other team in the league, not even LA, Texas, Atl Boston or the Phillies could do that had they made such big fiscal blunders. People say the Yanks are smart with their cash. No they aren't. They're just able to cover up their mistakes by spending more money.
You going to try to convince me that Drew Henson is worth 2 mil this year? Or Hitchcock throwing 30 IP from the pen is worth 6 mil? Or a backup outfielder for 5 mil?
Hell, except for Soriano, every batter is making over 5 mil. (And it wont take Soriano long to change that.) The Expos have to ditch Tatis because his 6 mil deal is enormous to us, preventing us from signing anybody. The Yanks are able to get whoever they want whenever they want, no matter how bad their other contracts are and no matter how much money is involved. If you can't see why this makes us sick, then just forget it. Its all written right here for you to see if you choose to see it.
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| | | 21 | wiggs@parents
ID: 259442719
Wed, Dec 25, 2002, 17:20
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Rogue,
I am not saying the yanks arent spending alot of money, what i am saying is that they havent spend the most money this season, nor have they made the most moves. They had 2 guys they were shooting for and they got them both. Matsui said he would not sign with anyone but the yanks. I dont know why they went after contreras, they have enough in the starting pitching area. Hitchcock is a waste of money and I wish they could get rid of him, but they are probably stuck with him.
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| | | 22 | J
Leader
ID: 49346417
Thu, Dec 26, 2002, 02:28
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the only reason the yanks got him was so the Red Sox wouldn't. There's only one team I dislike more than the Yankees, so, glad Boston is getting screwed :)
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| | | 24 | Species
Sustainer
ID: 569221717
Thu, Dec 26, 2002, 15:06
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Like it makes a difference, but the Yanks are only on the hook for $6 million of Mondesi's salary.
That being said, even I have to admit to a bit of embarrassment about how much they've spent. And this abundance of pitching is incredible. What good are Hernandez, Weaver AND Hitchcock in the bullpen?
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| | | 25 | Razor
Donor
ID: 481130274
Fri, Dec 27, 2002, 05:41
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Comparing any other team in baseball to the Yankees is a joke. 3 years ago, yes, Boston and LA were comparable. Both have had major salary concerns lately and, consequently, have done some serious belt tightening. Meanwhile, the Yankees continue to spend. Since Kevin Malone left, LA has not been involved in any bidding wars or high priced free agents with the exception of Ishii. The Yankees are in on every single one it seems, be it trade or free agent.
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| | | 26 | Whitey
Sustainer
ID: 47130129
Fri, Dec 27, 2002, 12:43
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The only way everyone will stop bitching about the Yankees is if MLB ever institutes a hard cap where it is absolutely prohibited for a team to have a payroll over $100 mil or something like that.
Why hasn't this been done? I guess because the players are so gosh-darned powerful and ultimately the owners have to give them what they want.
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| | | 27 | J
Leader
ID: 49346417
Fri, Dec 27, 2002, 12:51
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no, the problem is most owners do say no. It's the handful of teams' owners' always saying yes that causes the problem.
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| | | 28 | Whitey
Sustainer
ID: 47130129
Fri, Dec 27, 2002, 13:27
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When the owners say no, it's only because they don't have the money. What it comes down to is George has more money than most (if not all) owners and he doesn't care about spending it. I don't think it's right, but that's just the facts.
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| | | 29 | JeffG
Sustainer
ID: 40451227
Fri, Dec 27, 2002, 14:23
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Steinbrenner wants to put a championship team out there every year, and does not mind paying big bucks to do it. It may be unfair to the teams with smaller revenue streams, but unfortunately there is little that can be done and baseball as a whole may ultimately suffer.
With the new CBA, we are now stuck with this new system for 5 years. If teams are really losing money, I do not see how the couple of million dollars the poor teams will get from the limited revenue sharing or this salary tax are going to make the difference. Seems like the Yankees do not care about these additional expenditures and will spend what they want. When they win the World Series, they feel like it is worth spending to keep the team together, and when they do not win it, they spend to re-tool. On the other hand, if a few more teams spend like the Yankees then salaries would really get out of control again and the poorer teams would be at a greater disadvantage.
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| | | 30 | AirSteve
ID: 2411382319
Fri, Dec 27, 2002, 19:19
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The Yankees could hire Ira as GM. He would quickly cut their current payroll by $55 million.
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| | | 31 | RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 211013916
Sat, Dec 28, 2002, 02:20
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Ok, its either:
Why is it always the mets.
or
Expect Rey Sanchez to suck very soon.
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| | | 32 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 22100300
Sat, Dec 28, 2002, 12:32
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He already does suck, RSF. That's why it's not "Why is it always the Mets?"
It's ALWAYS the Yankees. Sure, they didn't sign Thome, but they were in the running. The Phils had to severely overpay just to get their first major free agent since Pete Rose. And you're comparing that to the Yankees? Didn't they get a free agent first baseman last year? And isn't he better than Thome? And did any other team have a chance to sign him?
Sure, the Phils signed David Bell. In his place, the Yanks have Robin Ventura (who was MUCH better than better will ever be when he signed) AND Drew Henson. It's ALWAYS the Yankees.
Mike Mussina is a free agent. The Yankees could use another pitcher, despite being World Champions. Done. Signed. It's always the Yankees.
ARod signed a 25 million dollar contract? Well, that increases the odds of Jeter leaving in 3 years. Let's sign him for 19. Done. It's always the Yankees.
All-Star free agent signee Rondell White isn't working out? Let's overpay for Raul Mondesi. Done. It's always the Yankees.
Bernie Williams has a contract coming due? Can't let that happen. Sign him. It's always the Yankees.
Orlando Hernandez is available? Get him. It's always the Yankees.
Tom Glavine's available? Sorry, the Yanks already have 8 starting pitchers, and besides, they only acquire aces in their primes.
The Tigers don't want to pay Jeff Weaver, easily their best pitcher and the cornerstone of the young franchise? We'll make him the second best starting pitcher in our bullpen. Done. It's always the Yankees.
None of the homegrown guys working out in left field? Wouldn't the Japanese MVP like to play in America's finest city? Go get him. It's always the Yankees.
The best pitcher in Cuban history has defected? Were you expecting the Brewers to sign him? It's always the Yankees.
The Yankee management is very talented, but I had a lot of fun winning the Triple Crown in Seattle's little league system last summer. If you're a Yankee fan, shut your mouth and enjoy this. There's nothing else to say.
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| | | 34 | beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 298152019
Sat, Dec 28, 2002, 14:37
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Excellent post, bh.
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| | | 35 | Rogue Nine
ID: 21139282
Sat, Dec 28, 2002, 19:12
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1) The Phils DID overpay for Thome. The Yankees didn't really have anything to do that, but thats what every other team in the league has to do to get a superstar to sign with them.
2) The Yanks got Bernie and Jeter into their system by drafting them late in the 1st round. Everyone knew they were good, but low-revenue teams like the Expos, Twins, Royals, Pirates, etc. all passed over them because they couldn't afford their signing bonus. (Just like Drew Henson, just like Soriano, just like ALL their draft picks.) Its money at work there too.
3) "Weaver, mondesi and ventura were all trades and if you knew as much as you think you do they arent over paying for mondesi, toronto is paying over 6 million of that deal."
Weaver: They got him because the Tigers couldn't afford his FOUR MILLION salary. Ugh. As if the Tigers wouldn't have kept him if they could have.
Ventura: They got him by dumping another stupid contract in Justice. They got Justice in the first place when the A's couldn't afford to keep him anymore. Ugh. (As if the A's wouldn't have wanted his bat in their lineup during their playoff run if they could've afford him.)
Mondesi: They AGAIN got him because his original team couldn't afford him anymore. (Have the Yankees EVER made a trade where they weren't stealing talent because of money issues? You know, a REAL even-for-even trade in talent?) And if you think Mondesi at ONLY 5 mil is acceptable... lol
As for bashing Arizona, yeah, they bought a couple of their players. Others, like Luis Gonzo, they actually made a smart trade for. And they don't buy players EVERY YEAR. (The reason blue hen put El-Duque in his list is to show that fact. They buy whoever they want every single damned year.)
"You cant blame the yanks when players come right out and say that they only want to play for the yanks."
I bet you'd be surpised how many of these players would be willing to play elsewhere if they money was the same. Its easy for me to say "I love New York, I don't want to play anywhere else" when the Yankees are offering me 5 mil more a year than any other team.
"Maybe if the Phillies took care of their players before they would still have Schilling and possibly a NLC or even a WS."
Maybe. Don't see what this has to do with the Yankees though. Philly threw Schilling away, although they got Padilla in return for him, so it wasn't a total loss. In any case, if your idea of 'taking care of players' is to throw millions of dollars at them, then I guess the only team thats able to take care of their players is the Yankees.
Imagine the Yankees roster if teams throughout the years had actually been able to keep their talent.
OF:
Hideki Matsui (who knows)
Bernie Williams (Yankees)
Raul Mondesi (Toronto)
Rondell White (Montreal)
1B:
Jason Giambi (A's)
2B:
Alonzo Soriano (Yankees)
SS:
Derek Jeter (Probably the Pirates or Royals, had they been able to afford his signing bonus after the amateur draft.)
3B:
Robin Ventura (NY Mets)
C:
Jorge Posada (Yankees)
Rotation:
Jose Contreras (who knows)
Andy Pettite (Yankees)
Mike Mussina (Orioles)
David Wells (Toronto)
Orlando Hernandez (who knows)
Jeff Weaver (Detroit)
Bullpen:
Mariano Rivera (Yankees)
Chris Hammond (Atlanta)
Sterling Hitchcock (Padres)
Steve Karsay (Atlanta)
So lets see... The Yankees under these conditions would have 1 OF, a 2B, a C, 1 SP and a closer. Those are some pretty big holes that need filling.
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| | | 36 | yanks fan
ID: 711502114
Sat, Dec 28, 2002, 20:40
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Jeter was drafted by the yanks, you cant say someone else could have drafted them because they all had their chance. Hitchcock was an original yankee before his trade. Wells a yankees but traded in the Clemens trade. You guys are crazy if you think the yanks dont have home grown talent. i admit the yanks spend money, but Rondell White and Hammonds arent exactly all star quality players. You have to also understand that the Yankees gave up Ted Lilly, home grown talent for Weaver and Lilly's numbers were actually better then Weavers at the time of the trade.
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| | | 37 | Rogue Nine
ID: 21139282
Sat, Dec 28, 2002, 21:04
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What I said was that teams purposely passed over Jeter because they couldn't afford his signing bonus. Better to get a 2nd rate prospect and be able to sign him than to take Jeter, find out your unable to reach an agreement with him, and lose your pick. (Yes, you get a compensatory pick in the following draft, but thats a whole year of development you've lost on a prospect. And thats assuming your able to sign the dude you take with the compensatory pick.)
I guess thats not really the Yankees fault that other teams couldn't afford him, but its a bit annoying when people say 'homegrown' talent... They didn't get Jeter by picking a diamond in the rough, they got him because others couldn't afford him. (This may or may not be true about other homegrown talents, but with Jeter it is a known fact. The Royals passed him up, and it was a pretty big story at the time because Jeter was supposedly the best player in the draft.)
Also, Ted Lilly was an Expos draft pick. We gave him and Jake Westbrook up for Hideki Irabu. First trade Jeffrey Loria made when he got to Montreal... (called up his 'buddy' Steinbrenner and worked up this 'fair' deal. Ugh.)
The simple fact is that the Yankees get the top free agent EVERY YEAR. Other teams spend money, but not every year. Thats what we hate. Their payroll is almost 1/3 higher than any other team in the league. How is this so hard to see? They even blow away the other top market teams...
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| | | 39 | Rogue Nine
ID: 21139282
Sat, Dec 28, 2002, 23:21
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With Matsui, Contreras, and Hammond, the Yanks are probably the #2 spenders this off-season. (When they had said that they'd be trying to cut payroll too!) The Phillies were #1, but thats the first time in what, two decades? The Yanks have probably been in the top 3 since the early 90's.
So they weren't the top spending team for ONE offseason. (And hey, we're not done yet...) Thats not enough for me to drop my grudge. Let them be forced to trade their top pitcher (like the Expos, Braves, Tigers, Royals, etc.) and maybe I'll show some sympathy.
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| | | 41 | RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 211013916
Sun, Dec 29, 2002, 01:05
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Just for clairity, Soriano was another Matsui-Contreras type signed player. A free agent signee to the highest bidder from the Japanese League as a high demand, young, semi-polished prospect, IIRC.
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| | | 43 | RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 211013916
Sun, Dec 29, 2002, 01:34
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Yes, after signing, he did play in the Yankee minor league system.
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| | | 44 | DMAN
ID: 317112111
Sun, Dec 29, 2002, 01:36
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Here's a Bio that backs up RSF's claim.
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| | | 45 | Myboyjack
Leader
ID: 14826271
Sun, Dec 29, 2002, 04:30
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The Yanks spend the money and because of that they draw a crowd and make a lot of money
Just to clarify: The Yanks don't make a lot of money compared to other MLB teams by putting butts in Yankee Stadium. They make their disproprtionate share of cash with their huge radio and TV contract from their huge media market size; something the Brewers (which were used as an example) can never compensate for, regardless of the quality of team they put on the field.
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| | | 46 | Rogue Nine
ID: 21139282
Sun, Dec 29, 2002, 07:39
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Thats what bugs us so much. Even if we did have an owner who was willing to spend every dime the team made, and put it back into the team, we will never come anywhere near what the Yankees are spending. And that means they will always get the Giambi's, Mussina's, Hernandez's, Soriano's, Contreras's and Matsui's of the market. And that plain sucks. (For us anyway.) And we hate it. And thats that.
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| | | 47 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 331038201
Sun, Dec 29, 2002, 15:06
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Obviously, Wiggs is the only one fighting this battle, and I'm not sure walk or other Yankee fans would join him, so I'll stop arguing about the specifics of the Yankees.
I do think that what Carl Pohlad is doing (spending little and keeping a lot) is significantly worse than what Steinbrenner is doing. In fact, I agree that Steinbrenner's right to argue with the current system because he's basically just putting money in Pohlad's pocket.
But until both the Yankees and Twins and every other team realizes that even the XFL could figure out a way to have competitive balance, baseball will continue to lose ground to football and basketball.
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| | | 48 | Razor
Donor
ID: 411149818
Sun, Dec 29, 2002, 19:05
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From ESPN.com:
"According to a report in Wednesday's New York Times, the Yankees' payroll now stands at $158 million -- well above the $117 million tax threshold."
Just using the money that the Yankees are over the threshold, you could put together a major league club. Or you could get a top 1st baseman($17 mil), ace starter ($15 mil) and a top notch closer ($8 mil) - a Giambi, a Mussina, and a Rivera, for example.
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| | | 49 | quik_ag
ID: 556371723
Sun, Dec 29, 2002, 21:36
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am i alone in thinking that a competitive balance would be horribly boring?
and i agree with bh.. for example, the tribune company has the potential of the chicago metropolis and the remarkable profitability of wrigley field to leverage into a superb team. instead, they draw the ire of cubs fans by sitting on that pile of money.
if i thought wiggs was fighting a battle here, i'd jump to his defense, but he freely admits that the yankees spend a lot of money. that's the system. were steinbrenner to become frugle in his old age, we'd here just as much bellyaching, but from the other side of the fence. what's a megalopolis's team to do?
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| | | 50 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 331038201
Sun, Dec 29, 2002, 21:52
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Yankees' payroll over the years
1985: $15.40M (1st in majors)
1986: $17.25M (1st in majors)
1987: $18.57M (1st in majors)
1988: $21.52M (1st in majors)
1989: $18.48M (4th in majors)
1990: $20.59M (7th in majors)
1991: $31.94M (7th in majors)
1992: $34.90M (8th in majors)
1993: $46.59M (3rd in majors)
1994: $47.51M (1st in majors)
1995: $58.17M (1st in majors)
1996: $61.51M (1st in majors)
1997: $73.39M (1st in majors)
1998: $73.96M (2nd in majors)
1999: $91.99M (1st in majors)
2000: $113.37M (1st in majors)
2001: $109.79M (1st in majors)*
2002: $125.93M (1st in majors)*
* Opening Day payrolls, all others are Sept. 1 totals
Source: Doug Pappas' Business of Baseball pages
It's always the Yankees. I'd rather see a battle of which teams can interpret meaningful stats better than a battle of which team can have a more entertaining product and be successful off the field. That battle should be saved for Pro Wrestling.
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| | | 51 | beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 2711292917
Sun, Dec 29, 2002, 23:37
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The NFL has a competitive balance and they are doing just fine.
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| | | 52 | Rogue Nine
ID: 911262918
Mon, Dec 30, 2002, 00:19
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I don't think it'd be very boring at all. Rather, I find it boring when about 10-12 teams already have no chance at the WS by April 4th.
A completely equal playing field would force teams to make intelligent decisions to create powerhouses. I'd rather see that than watch someone throw money at a problem.
Example: What do you find more interesting.
A) Hearing about the latest Yankees signing.
B) Hearing about Billy Beane's latest deal.
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| | | 53 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 331038201
Mon, Dec 30, 2002, 00:59
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I get sick of Beane too. Every once in a while, I wish the Tigers or Brewers or Royals would do something interesting.
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| | | 54 | RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 211013916
Mon, Dec 30, 2002, 01:31
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Why is it always the red sox?
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| | | 55 | Razor
Donor
ID: 2612717
Mon, Dec 30, 2002, 01:34
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The NFL is not doing fine, depending on how you look at it. Do you enjoy completely different rosters every two years, having to cut HoFers, All-Pro's or Pro Bowlers just to make the cap and having no chance of a dynasty? I don't. My Chiefs, picked up two HoFers, both of whom are still very good, this offseason.
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| | | 59 | JeffG
Sustainer
ID: 40451227
Mon, Dec 30, 2002, 10:17
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Baseball is going to take a few more steps backwards if the likely World Series competitors are always the same 4-6 teams each spring. It was nice to see teams like Anaheim and Minnesota sneak into the mix, but for most of the poorer teams, they are looking at an endless cycle of more than a decade on the sub .500 end. I feel really sorry for Expo, Royal, Brewer, Pirate, Devil Ray, Rockie, Tiger, and Marlin fans who do not get to face the excitement of a pennant race. You cannot blame them for not showing up to the ballpark in large numbers when the system is stacked against them, and I really hate it when they get branded as bad baseball cities and bad baseball fans because of it.
But for those of you expressing your anger and displeasure at the Yankeees (and their fans), if baseball owners want to play by the new rules from the latest CBA, What SHOULD the Yankees do? Their goal is to try to build the best team within their means, and that will mean likely sending $30-$50 million to the other owners in the form of a salary tax and limited revenue sharing. They have built a brand name that makes major free agents and top foreign players want to play for them. They raise ticket prices and still average more than 40K a game. They get top dollar from their tv and broadcast contracts. They set up lucrative marketing agreements internationally independant of MLB with Manchester United of the UK and the Tokyo Giants in Japan. They partner with other pro teams in other major US pro sports (NBA-Nets, NHL-Devils) to further increase their revenue potential by selling the rights to them all as one package. They have the money to spend as they have figured out a way to make a pro sports franchise mega-profitable. (Yes, being in the NY market helps but is any other owner taking notes?). I know if Steinbrenner sat on these profits we would hear about that too.
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| | | 60 | Chuck
ID: 571132017
Mon, Dec 30, 2002, 12:23
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If there was no cap Jones could get more players and make them atleast respectable again.
IOW: Throw money at the problem.
Why I like the NFL cap: If you make a mistake/over commit, you are forced to pay for your mistake. The market will reset itself with a cap. I believe Plummer is a free agent this year. B/c of the cap, he will get paid closer to what he deserves as opposed to the baseball system where he gets bid up. In football, if you're not worth it, you won't get paid it later on.
Agree: Yankees are doing nothing wrong. However, I think it is way more fun in football this year (even though my Dolphins choked yesterday). Would the Cleveland Browns ever be able to make a run to the playoffs if there were no cap? I highly doubt it. Possible, but not probable. Consider any salary cap fantasy sport where there is a cap and imagine if payroll was determined by wealth in real life. If you weren't the top dog, you'd lose interest in it real quick. And even if you were, you might move on to another challenge. I see the fun in sports is having all supposedly equal teams battle it out to see who is really the best group.
The days of one group of players staying together over the long term are generally over, but it really has nothing to do with the $$, I think. Maybe I'm totally off here (as I am nowhere near a millionaire), but is there really that big of a difference between $5 mill/year and $6 mill/year? Personally, I'd rather be doing a job I love in a place I want to be, even if it meant less $$ than doing a job that I hated in a place I didn't want to be. If a player wants to commit to a team, they will do it for less $$. It's a heart issue with them; I don't think it has anything to do with the system.
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| | | 62 | Myboyjack
Leader
ID: 108231015
Mon, Dec 30, 2002, 12:33
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In other words
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| | | 63 | RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 211013916
Mon, Dec 30, 2002, 13:19
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The 8th Starter comes in at mere 10.1 million. What a bargain.
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| | | 65 | RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 211013916
Mon, Dec 30, 2002, 13:59
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Actually he is the 8th starter the yankees have bought now.
Not in any order:
1.Pettitte
2.Hitchcock
3.Mussina
4.Contreras
5.Weaver
6.Wells
7.Hernandez
and...
8.Clemens
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| | | 66 | Whitey
Sustainer
ID: 47130129
Mon, Dec 30, 2002, 14:18
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Well, the Yankees have to replace Mendoza and Stanton in the bullpen so 2 of those guys (most likely Weaver and Duque) will be in the bullpen and Hitchcock is pretty much useless.
That gives the Yankees a rotation of:
Mussina
Pettitte
Wells
Clemens
Contreras
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| | | 68 | DMAN
ID: 25711917
Mon, Dec 30, 2002, 14:32
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RSF wasn't saying that Clemens was the #8 starter, just that he's one of 8 starters that that the Yankees have on their roster.
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| | | 69 | RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 211013916
Mon, Dec 30, 2002, 14:45
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Lets not forget Chris Hammonds, he of the 0.95 ERA last year, was brought in to replace Stanton (or Mendoza, who he is more like, spot-starter/long reliever).
As for Hitchcock, he is pretty much useless to the yankees, but that is probably because of the glut of starters already on the team (all 8 of them). He'd be someones #3 or #4 in most of the rest of the universe. (Personally, when they acquired him, I wondered what was going through their minds, just didn't make sense to me then either. Must have been to block someone else from acquiring him.)
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| | | 70 | Whitey
Sustainer
ID: 47130129
Mon, Dec 30, 2002, 15:08
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Hammonds is far froma sure thing. Why didn't the Braves keep him? Probably because they felt that he would never again come close to the numbers he put up in 2002. Definition of a fluke year
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| | | 71 | RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 211013916
Mon, Dec 30, 2002, 15:35
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In that same context, then why would the yankees be willing to increase his salary by a multiple of 4 (500K to 2 Million, if the number in post 20 is correct.) Mark me down as seeing him in the 3 ERA area (same neighborhood as Mendoza and Stanton), and not in the sub 1s. Was he finally used in the correct role last season, and will he continue to be used in that same role with the yankees? Torre is a smart guy, so I think so.
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| | | 72 | biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 5310281417
Mon, Dec 30, 2002, 15:40
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My take on the turn this thread has taken:
It seems like Yankee fans are getting defensive, yet it seems like the attackers aren't really attacking the Yankees, they attacking the system which enables the Yankees to win through market superiority, not through good management and hence greater on-field talent (which they have they have in abundance, but it isn't clear if their market, or their savvy and managerial talent is the reason for it).
I see this as an attack on the essential status-quo which was agreed upon in the latest negotiations.
I don't blame the Yankees for trying to put the best product available on the field, given their financial restrictions (or lack there-of), I blame the owners, players and commissioner for leaving such an inane system in place. A system which essentially dooms more half the league to mediocrity, unless the twin flowers of immense luck and tremendous front office savvy happen to bloom at the same time. Either that, or the team can operate at a loss for a few years, to spend for the necessary free agents required to win, and then have a firesale after that (see Florida and the Snakes).
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| | | 73 | James K Polk
ID: 23754811
Mon, Dec 30, 2002, 15:48
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"... unless the twin flowers of immense luck and tremendous front office savvy happen to bloom at the same time ..."
Whew! Such fine prose in a Yankee-bashing thread! I didn't think that was allowed.
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| | | 74 | beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 2711292917
Mon, Dec 30, 2002, 18:12
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Under Clemens' previous contract, he gets $10.3 million in 2003, money deferred from his previous deal. Under the new contract New York pays him $600,000 in 2004, $700,000 in 2005, $900,000 in 2006, $950,000 in each of the following six years, and $1.1 million in both 2013 and 2014.
Haha, 1.1 million in 2013 and 2014.
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| | | 75 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 331038201
Mon, Dec 30, 2002, 19:24
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If Clemens is still around in 2013, he'll be worth more to his team than 1.1 million. Remember Nolan Ryan, circa 1993?
I agree wholeheartedly with biliruben (especially the flower comment - good stuff). I am not faulting the Yankees. I am faulting the system. The only problem here is that Yankee fans are both the staunchest supporters of the system, as well as the most powerful voices in every discussion on the matter.
Obviously, Carl Pohlad doesn't want any changes to the current system. But why let him cast Minnesota's vote? Why not let John Sickels cast it? Or perhaps we could have a referendum...
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| | | 77 | Rogue Nine
ID: 291124305
Mon, Dec 30, 2002, 21:14
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I guess I was pretty anti-Yankees in this thread. Can't really help it. All I've heard the entire off-season so far was that my Spos would have to reduce their salary to 40 mil and lose one, maybe two of their top players. Then we see the Yankees post a payroll 40 mil higher than any other team. Can you really blame me for being annoyed?
To be blunt, its easy being a Yankees fan and it just plain sucks being a fan of anyone else not in the top 10 in payroll.
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| | | 78 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 22100300
Mon, Dec 30, 2002, 23:09
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Actually, it's a pretty good time to be a fan of the Red Sox and perhaps the Mets, and it might even be a good time to be a fan of the Oakland A's.
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| | | 79 | Species
Sustainer
ID: 569221717
Tue, Dec 31, 2002, 14:07
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Rogue - it wasn't always easy! We suffered for a long time with stupid trades, ridiculous free agent signings and a total ignorance of the scouting/minor leagues for quite a while.
What most have to realize is that during the Yankees glory run of 4 WS titles in 5 years, they did it mainly through trades and keeping the players they develop. How many other teams boast five home grown All Stars (Bernie, Jeter, Posada, Pettitte, Rivera)? If you really look hard at the Yankees rosters during those years, the biggest free agents they had were guys like Boggs, Stanton and Wells - and El Duque to a lesser extent (until you realize he only got paid $6.6M for 3 years). The core were home grown (aforementioned All-Stars above, plus Mendoza, Spencer and other bit players) or traded for (i.e. Knoblauch, Tino, O'Neill, Cone, Key, Clemens).
While certainly the Yankees' "tenticles" (to quote Larry 'Sour Grapes' Lucchino) have made their presence known this year and last, their run of World Championships was not brought on strictly by money.
Two corrections from the discussion above:
1 - Derek Jeter was the #6 overall pick that year....something around 1992 or 1993. I'm not a subscriber to Baseball America Online (who has the data from the first round of drafts back to 1990 I believe), but if memory serves while Jeter was highly touted, there were several studs taken that year before him - college pitchers if I remember. And if we looked up the signing bonuses, I don't believe Jeter's was out of the ordinary for the time. In my opinion, drafting based upon 'signability' didn't come en vogue until a few years later.
Bluntly, I've been critical of the Yankees for not taking more advantage of "tough signs".....Drew Henson the exception to that of course.
2 - Bernie Williams was signed like every other Latin player has been signed - as an international free agent when he was a teenager. This was done +/-1988 - 1989. Funny story related to that. As Bernie was being courted/signed by the Yankees, he asked if they would also sign a friend of his (Williams is from Puerto Rico) too - that he was a really good player. The Yankees declined. His name?
Juan Gonzalez.
See? It isn't always the Yankees! ;-)
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| | | 80 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 710321114
Tue, Dec 31, 2002, 15:15
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It's always the Yankees.
Passing on Gonzalez was stupidity, not fiscal restraint.
I do agree that Boston shouldn't be whining - they spend almost as much and never win.
I also want to smack wiggs for post 56. Are you calling me a liar? Rickey Henderson was among the 5 highest paid players in that time. Willie Randolph, Dave Righetti, and even Jack Clark wore the pinstripes as well.
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| | | 82 | quik_ag
ID: 556371723
Tue, Dec 31, 2002, 15:49
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but do you see those numbers in the mid-80s? that's not all inflation there.. in a broad sense, the yankees spend-thrift ways destroyed the collusion between owners and put the money into the pockets of the people that deserved it. now you can argue that they've taken it too far, but i'd rather see a system with over-paid players rather than a system with over-paid owners. the yankees are the forces of light here ;-)
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| | | 83 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 710321114
Tue, Dec 31, 2002, 17:19
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Agreed, but I'm not THAT much in favor of the players. They ARE pretty greedy. But the owners are greedier. And need it less.
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| | | 84 | RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 42121814
Tue, Dec 31, 2002, 17:56
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Hey, the A's are well on their way to 5 home grown allstars: Tejada, Zito are there. Add Hudson and Mulder and that makes 5. Oh wait, that makes four, I keep forgetting Giambi isn't an A anymore...Who does he play for now?
:-)
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| | | 85 | James K Polk
ID: 23754811
Tue, Dec 31, 2002, 17:59
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That's the crucial element, isn't it RSF? Having the money to keep those homegrown all-stars. Otherwise this thread would be full of "It's always the Expos ..."
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| | | 87 | Rogue Nine
ID: 161118315
Tue, Dec 31, 2002, 18:46
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#85, thats what makes me so annoyed, thinking of the teams the Expos could have had. I guess I'm not only pissed off at the Yankees for overspending, but for every organization that allowed salaries to get so out of control.
Montreal was once a great baseball city. We were in the top 3 in attendance during the early 80's, when we had a good team that almost won it all. Before the strike screwed us then too. :(
#79, I guess I don't blame you Yankees fans for enjoying your moment in the sun. I just hope that this new agreement makes it possible for other teams to challenge your top of the mountain status. Afterall, a Heavyweight Champion looks pretty lame if he's not actually defending his title against anybody...
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| | | 88 | AirSteve
ID: 2411382319
Fri, Jan 03, 2003, 18:52
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That's some pretty funny stuff, in #64 and #67; Wiggs arguing how Clemens isn't the 8th starter, and totally missing the irony that The Yanks Have Eight Starters.
Maybe we could put them all in a nice, fair-to-everyone sequence. With that in place, we could then compare their 6th, 7th, and 8th starters to the rest of the league's. Oh yeah, the rest of the league only has 5 starters...
In answer to the question in #56 about Yankee salaries in the mid-80's, here's the 1985 list:
Dave Winfield $ 1,795,704
Rickey Henderson $ 1,470,000
Ken Griffey Sr. $ 1,075,000
Ron Guidry $ 900,000
Don Baylor $ 810,000
Ed Whitson $ 800,000
Dave Righetti $ 680,000
John Montefusco $ 637,500
Bob Shirley $ 637,500
Phil Niekro $ 600,000
Willie Randolph $ 600,000
Butch Wynegar $ 550,000
Dale Berra $ 477,500
Don Mattingly $ 455,000
Bill Sample $ 435,000
Ron Hassey $ 425,000
Marty Bystrom $ 250,000
Joe Cowley $ 120,000
Rich Bordi $ 115,000
Bob Meacham $ 100,000
(Winfield had the highest salary in the AL, Henderson the 3rd highest.)
And the 1988 list:
Don Mattingly $ 2,000,000
Dave Winfield $ 1,958,652
Rickey Henderson $ 1,770,000
Jack Clark $ 1,500,000
Dave Righetti $ 1,300,000
Richard Dotson $ 900,000
Rick Rhoden $ 900,000
Willie Randolph $ 875,000
Ron Guidry $ 825,000
Tim Stoddard $ 700,000
John Candelaria $ 700,000
Ken Phelps $ 670,000
Gary Ward $ 625,000
Don Slaught $ 531,500
Mike Pagliarulo $ 500,000
Claudell Washington $ 480,000
Charles Hudson $ 450,000
Rafael Santana $ 425,000
Wayne Tolleson $ 410,000
Cecilio Guante $ 380,000
Tommy John $ 375,000
Jose Cruz $ 350,000
Neil Allen $ 250,000
Bob Meacham $ 212,500
Dale Mohorcic $ 157,500
Lee Guetterman $ 137,500
Joel Skinner $ 110,000
Al Leiter $ 67,000
Roberto Kelly $ 67,000
Jay Buhner $ 67,000
(Mattingly had the 4th highest AL salary, behind Brett, Rice, and Eddie Murray. Winfield was 6th, after Jack Morris)
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| | | 90 | RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 42121814
Fri, Jan 03, 2003, 19:10
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How many teams have starters like Weaver, El Duque and Hitchcock in their bullpen? Yes, they have 8 starters.
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| | | 91 | RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 42121814
Fri, Jan 03, 2003, 19:15
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As for post 86:
best I can figure out is...
Signed as a non-drafted free agent by the Oakland Athletics in 1993.
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| | | 92 | quik_ag
ID: 556371723
Fri, Jan 03, 2003, 19:15
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can we at least allow cashman and co. to make their wheelings and dealings before decrying their monopolization of the market? it's still possible that some of these, albeit bloated, salaries will be shed before the start of the season. (duque, i'm looking at you.)
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| | | 93 | RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 42121814
Fri, Jan 03, 2003, 19:22
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Funny thing about sports, why would any franchise willingly help the "evil empire" out by taking salary and old, old players? Its like, why would anyone trade the Lakers some young players to help revitalize them. Let them struggle with their mistakes like everyone else.
Sorry for the "evil empire" quote, that one still cracks me up, the Boston management calling the kettle black.
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| | | 95 | AirSteve
ID: 2411382319
Fri, Jan 03, 2003, 19:57
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Emperor Palpatine felt his Evil Empire would be able to compete with Steinbrenner's this year, but Darth Maul went down with an arm injury and Brian Cashman outbid that sneaky Senator guy with the dark hood and signed ace right-hander Darth Vader to a deal reportedly worth $30 million over a 3-prequel period.
Vader is projected to be the Yankee's 11th starter after they pick up Javier Vazquez and Bartolo Colon.
Yoda was unsuccessfully trying to commit ritual suicide with his little muppet cane and was unavailable for comment.
In a related story, the A's signed OPS sinkhole Chris Singleton to a 1-year deal, proving conclusively that it's Not "Always the Yankees."
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| | | 96 | RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 42121814
Fri, Jan 03, 2003, 20:04
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No, the A's got Tejada the same way the yankees got Bernie Williams. Not from a previous professional league.
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| | | 97 | Rogue Nine
ID: 5002726
Fri, Jan 03, 2003, 20:49
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I give the Yanks credit for finding Soriano. Nobody wanted him the first time he became eligible for the draft, and they found him in the Japanese league and signed him for a relatively modest 2.5 million. (Still alot IMHO, but not so much that other teams should have felt 'outbid' had they really had designs on him.)
This still doesn't take away from the fact that the Yanks have 8 starting pitchers. Yes, some teams have arms in the pen who can theoretically start, but the Yanks have 8 pitchers who could all be #2 or #3 SP's on other teams. (Maybe not Hitchcock, but I can see him being a #3 or #4 on a weaker team.)
#92, that just makes it worse. They don't like the money/quality ratio they're getting from El-Duque and a couple others, so they sign better pitchers to more expensive deals and then find a way to dump the guys they don't like. How many teams in the league can do that?
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| | | 98 | AirSteve
ID: 2411382319
Fri, Jan 03, 2003, 21:00
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Tejada was signed by the A's in '93 as an undrafted free agent. His first major-league deal was for $150,000 in 1997. He made $3.6 million last year.
Soriano signed with the Hiroshima Toyo Carp in 1994, retired from the Japanese Central League in 1998 and was subsequently signed by the Yanks as a free agent.
Alfonso's first major leage deal was for $630,000 which was also his 2002 salary, a show of fiscal responsibility which allowed The Thrifty Boss to focus on signing the Tiger's ace, the WhiteSox ace, the Padre's ace, the Blue Jay's starting right fielder, the Cub's starting center fielder, the D-Ray's starting center fielder, the Giant's starting right fielder, the Met's starting 3rd baseman, the A's starting 1st baseman, and the Michigan Wolverine's starting quarterback.
All without cutting the pay of the Oriole's ace and the Cuban National Team's ace (unless Contreras is better than El Duque and Adrian Hernandez, which is of course a story for The Year of the Godzilla).
In all fairness, The Boss only spent $44 million retaining farm products Jeter, Williams, Petitte, and Posada.
The fact that they all used to play in Columbus proves conclusively that it's not about the money.
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| | | 100 | Rogue Nine
ID: 5002726
Fri, Jan 03, 2003, 21:55
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Sorry wiggs, but you just don't get it. The Yankees spend and spend, and it bugs the hell out of us. Simple as that. You take the top FA every year, and nobody else really has a shot at them.
You're able to keep all of your developed talent, while teams like the A's are forced to lose theirs. (Just think what their lineup would be like with Giambi, instead of Hatteberg in it.)
Are we bitter about it? Probably. But you've never had to watch your team dismantle or trade/lose its star players, so you just don't know what it feels like. We have a right to be bitter. You on the other hand even get to be optimistic each off-season, as you scan the available FA's and ponder which ones you'll get. Must be nice.
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| | | 102 | Rogue Nine
ID: 5002726
Fri, Jan 03, 2003, 22:03
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I'm just trying to explain why the Yankees make us bitter.
Actually, its not just the Yankees. I'm bitter at the Red Sox for stealing Pedro from my Spos, and now they're likely to take Colon too. I'm bitter at the Rockies for taking Larry Walker away from us. And LA for taking Shawn Green away from Toronto, and giving them deadbeat Mondesi in return. And on and on...
The Yankees are just the biggest goon in a sport of goons. And I hate goons...
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| | | 103 | RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 211013916
Fri, Jan 03, 2003, 22:05
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Is a yankee hater anyone who doesn't express anything but blind love for them?
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| | | 106 | AirSteve
ID: 2411382319
Fri, Jan 03, 2003, 22:47
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The Yanks drafted Henson in 1998, then traded him for the Red's ace / Yankee's 5th starter in 2000. They got Drew back in the Wily Mo Pena deal of 2001, then signed him to a 6 year 17 million dollar minor league contract, enabling him to pay off those pesky college loans a few years early, as well as letting him go dutch with his roomate for a Gameboy to make those long AAA bus rides a little more tolerable.
You're absolutely right about Rondy White ($4.5 million / year). He was the Cubs starting left fielder. I stand corrected.
D-Rays starting CF - I was thinking of Gerald Williams ($2 million / year), who the Rays cut in mid-season 2001 to make way for Jason Tyner ($250k / year). In a rare spending move, the Yanks picked up his contract for the rest of the season, and carried him until his June 2002 release.
John VanderWal ($1.85 million / year) had 452 ab in 2001, split between Pittsburgh and then SanFran. He came over in 2002 for Jay Witasick ($1.2 million).
Ventura ($8.5 million) came over for Justice ($7 million).
The A's failed to sign Giambi ($10.4 million / year) and instead played Scott Hatteberg at 1b ($900k / year).
Weaver ($2.35 million / year) came over in a 3-way deal in which the Yanks moved Ted Lilly ($237k / year).
Wells took a huge paycut ($9.25 million -w- ChiSox in '01 to $2.25 in '02), enabling the Yankees to fill their need for a 7th guy who could either spot relieve or pitch 200 ace-quality innings, depending on how you want to use him. (I use this description in acknowledgement of the fact that you quite rightly take exception to the misnomer "7th starter.")
And you're right about Hitchcock ($4.9 million / year) and Mondesi ($11 million / year). Their teams couldn't afford them.
I agree when you take exception to the "it's always the Yankees" generalization. A more fair assessment would be: "It's always the Yankees when they want somebody. If they don't want somebody, then it's okay for another team to sign them."
You brought up perfect examples with Thome, Millwood, and Glavine.
The Yankees already have two left-handed power-hitting 1st basemen, and only one first base (despite attempts to purchase another one to ease crowding at the position); so Thome doesn't draw a Yankee bid.
The Yankees already have eight(!) pitchers who can either spot relieve or give you 200 ace-quality innings depending on how you want to use them, so the NL is permitted to get Glavine and Millwood.
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| | | 107 | RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 211013916
Sat, Jan 04, 2003, 15:49
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Thats pretty damn weak wiggs, removing all your posts. It was a pretty interesting conversation.
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| | | 108 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 11032171
Sat, Jan 04, 2003, 16:49
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it was everyone against, yeah, that was alot of fun
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| | | 109 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 11032171
Sat, Jan 04, 2003, 17:01
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what pushed me over the edge was airsteve bringing up stupid signings like vanderwal, white, gerald williams. That is totally ridiculous. I dont understand the complaints of the ventura justice trade. The Mets didnt need Ventura when they just went out an signed the top 2nd base FA in Robby Alomar and they knew they were moving Alfonzo to 3rd base. why would they hold Ventura as a sub when there is no DH in the NL. Gerald Williams was released the yanks didnt steal him from anyone. It is just turning into a youngbuck circus and I dont want to be involved in it anymore.
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| | | 110 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 22100300
Sat, Jan 04, 2003, 18:15
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I'm glad you removed the posts. Hopefully it will serve as a remind to everyone to think before you speak.
The Yankees signed Gerald Williams. Period. Why would you spend money on a 5th outfielder. Is Gerald Williams likely to play better than Juan Rivera or Marcus Thames? Slightly, and because of the slight chance, the Yankees shelled out some cash. Some teams buy starting shortstops with that cash, but the Yankees bought what should have been a 6th or 7th outfielder. It's always the Yankees, whether it's Jason Giambi or Gerald Williams.
Same with Contreras. The Yankees rotation wasn't that bad. Clemens is a weathered ace (see Moyer, Jamie or Maddux, Greg), and Pettitte and Mussina are aces still in their late primes. That's 3 guys who could realistically start the All-Star Game in any given year. Wells (although he's getting old), Weaver, and El Duque are what we like to call 3rd starters. As with the late 80s mets, you can move two down a slot or two and have a 6th guy to spot start or relieve. And Hitchcock, well, that's just a salary they don't want helping some other team. So why would they even put a bid on the most coveted international player around there? If they'd spent two million of it to hire an expert to create more competitive balance, they'd have done more to help themselves in the future (by helping baseball) than signing Contreras ever could have.
Would it be fair if the Brewers got a 4th strike? The Yankees play by a different set of rules than all 29 other teams. If you can't see that, you shouldn't be posting here.
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| | | 111 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 11032171
Sat, Jan 04, 2003, 18:22
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why is it a different set of rules? everyone has the same right to do what they need to do to win. quite your whining and support your team rather then bashing someone elses.
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| | | 112 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 11032171
Sat, Jan 04, 2003, 18:23
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quite = quit
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| | | 113 | Madman
Donor
ID: 21020124
Sat, Jan 04, 2003, 22:40
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Blue hen -- The Yankees play by a different set of rules than all 29 other teams.
Yep. Major League Baseball rules state very clearly that the Yankees are guaranteed monopoly rights in the largest media market in baseball. But because this rule is buried in the finer print of MLB ownership agreements, people sometimes forget all about it.
I wonder if people would still be talking about "free markets" and "they are just doing what everyone should be doing" if the rules of MLS were written more explicitly like: "The Yankees (and Mets) will be given the chance to win 50% more revenue than anyone else" . . .
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| | | 114 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 22100300
Sat, Jan 04, 2003, 23:23
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I'm not whining. Every time the Yanks do anything less than win the World Series, it's a victory for the system.
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| | | 115 | Species
Sustainer
ID: 7724916
Sun, Jan 05, 2003, 00:13
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Rogue Nine Post #100 - Giambi and Mussina are the **ONLY** examples of the Yankees spending more than $40 million on a free agent in my memory. And I believe Mussina was not the highest dollar signing that year -- that honor belongs to the Rockies for Mike Hampton if I recall correctly. Did the Yankees sign Kevin Brown?
I can appreciate your bitterness, but commenting that the Yankees buy all of the top free agents is pure ignorance on your part.
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| | | 116 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 22100300
Sun, Jan 05, 2003, 02:08
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Species 115...
As I recall, there's a player out there who got more than Hampton and Mussina put together that year.
I think the point was that the Yankees always go out of there way to sign superstars every year. While Mussina was not the BEST on the market, he is the ace stud that the Yankees wanted. Just like Giambi was.
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| | | 117 | quik_ag
ID: 556371723
Sun, Jan 05, 2003, 03:22
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i think you guys are arguing in circles. it's not a level playing field. period. anybody, yankee fan or vehement yankee-hater, can see that the yankees have a significant advantage, gained through a combination of logic and location, in the system. but that's the way the system is set up. hate the game, not the playa. anybody who faults the yankees for their overspending is misdirecting their outrage. personally, i fault the anti-trust clause. i feel that a city like new york should be able to handle 5 or 6 mlb teams if 5 or 6 mlb teams want to play there. split the television market of the greater metropolitan area 5 ways and you're down to a houston-sized market share. even more extreme, i feel that the team hailing from a metropolitan area with 10 million people, and controlling probably 20% (just a guess) of all mlb fans around the world should have a competitive advantage. it's in the best interest of the sport. the (fictional) Manhattan, KS wildcats should not have an equal chance against the "other" Manhattan team. i should say the bronx, but there's no Bronx, KS.
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| | | 118 | Rogue Nine
ID: 100055
Sun, Jan 05, 2003, 06:16
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Species Post #115 - I agree. Thats why in post 102 I mentioned that it really isn't just the Yankees that I'm pissed at. I'm pissed at any MLB team who ignorantly signed a player to a huge contract, thus pushing the ceiling for every other player even higher. Its definitely not just the Yankees who are at fault for that.
However, this thread was titled 'Yanks get Matsui' and it has been their behavior this off-season (when they had said they'd be trying to cut payroll) that made us focus on them. Nobody else has spent huge this year. (Except for Philly, but you can do that when you ditch half the payroll from the previous season.)
quik_ag, yes, its not really the Yankees fault that they have so much money to spend. But I really can't stand when a pro-Yankee person gets all incredulous when I mention that I'm bitter about it. My Spos get a 40$ million payroll, the Yankees get 150 mil$. Anyone with a brain can understand why I'm bitter. My team will never have a chance to win anything, and the Yankees will always have a chance every year. So just let me be bitter, its all I've got.
Anyone want to take bets on when the Yanks aquire their 9th starter? Colon/Vazquez anyone? :(
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| | | 119 | quik_ag
ID: 556371723
Sun, Jan 05, 2003, 15:43
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Let's get right down to it. you're jealous of the angels, twins, and a's. ;-)
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| | | 120 | Species
Sustainer
ID: 7724916
Sun, Jan 05, 2003, 16:41
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blue hen - but again your statement is gross hyperbole! To quote you: "the Yankees always go out of there way to sign superstars every year" - this is not true. While it is true they signed Mussina and Giambi in 2002.....then Contreras and Matsui this year, I challenge you to find them "going out of their way to sign superstars every year ".
Check out their free agent signing from 1995-2001. I highly doubt there was a single year that they signed the highest priced free agent. In fact, they signed only a handful of significant free agents during that entire period when the market for free agents started to skyrocket. Yes the re-signed many, but they didn't go out of their way to sign superstars, as you put it.
Believe me, I understand and admit to the Yankees' financial advantage.....I just vehemently disagree with the broad generalizations that are so often thrown the Yankees' way when it comes to how they have used that advantage. They have not "bought" Championships nor signed every free agent. Period.
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| | | 121 | AirSteve
ID: 2411382319
Sun, Jan 05, 2003, 18:29
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Some Yankee free agent signings:
2002- Contreras, Matsui
2001- Giambi, Hitchcock, Karsay, David Wells, Rondell White
2000- Mussina
1999- Andy Morales (Cuban national team 3b, released the next year when they inked Drew Henson's big contract)
1998- El Duque
1997- Hideki Irabu, Chili Davis
1996- David Wells, Kenny Rogers
1995- David Cone
With no real effort made to judge whether these were Good signings or not; they're just some run of the mill multi-million dollar / year signings.
The list defers to the notion that re-signing a free agent who could've gone someplace else is intrinsically different than just plain signing a free agent who could've gone someplace else. Although I'm not 100% clear on why that's the case.
For comparison's sake, here's a complete combined, alphabetized and annotated list of the free-agent contracts worth over $2 million / year signed by the Reds, Rockies, Marlins, Twins, Expos, ChiSox, Astros, A's, Padres, D-Rays, and Blue Jays in 2001:
That's the whole list.
Nobody.
It's absolutely true that the Yankees haven't signed every free agent (not even close), nor the highest priced ones (somewhat closer).
Here's an AL top-5 salary snapshot from 1995-2001:
2001: no Yankees in top 5 AL salaries
2000: Bernie Williams #2, David Cone #3
1999: Bernie #3, Cone #4
1998: Bernie #3
1997: Cecil Fielder #2
1996: no Yankees in top 5 AL salaries
1995: no Yankees in top 5 AL salaries
Fielder got his ridiculous contract from the Tigers. Cone was a free agent signing. Bernie was a free agent re-signing. The Yankees signed him after Peter Angelos outbid them on Joey Belle (biggest contract 1998-2000, finally trumped by A-Rod).
So during the above 7 year period, the Yankees never had more than 40% of the players with salaries in the top 1% of the AL (neither did anyone else).
To avoid the blanket statement "The Yankees buy championships," it's probably better to say: "The Yankees spend more money than any other team, and win more championships than any other team. There is both correlation and intent, but thus far causality is unproven, and is a subject open to considerable argument."
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| | | 122 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 22100300
Sun, Jan 05, 2003, 19:20
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My statement may have been hyperbole, but that accurately reflects the Yankee spending habits: over-inflated.
AirSteve provides a good list, so I'll talk about it a bit.
In 2002, it was Matsui and Contreras. Though unneeded, Contreras was the most highly sought free agent pitcher this season, other than Greg Maddux. I'd put him ahead of Jamie Moyer and Tom Glavine, and perhaps even Roger Clemens. And Matsui, while not the TOP RANKED hitter, has an image as an elite hitter. And he perfectly fills the Yankees weakest position (although wasn't Rondell an All-Star the year before he came? Vanderwal too?)
In 2001, it was Giambi. The Yankees "had to have him" as Tino got older. Plus they grossly overpaid for Karsay, and signed 3 former all stars.
In 2000, it was going to be ARod, but they would "only" shell out 20 million for him (later given to Jeter), so they had to "settle" for the best pitcher on the market, Mike Mussina.
In 1999, it was Morales. A big contract and they knew they'd be able to reneg later because he misrepresented his age. He was the only major signing this year because they won 114 games the year before and had a stable lineup that would win two more Serieses. Morales played the same position as the most recent Series MVP.
In 1998, it was Orlando Hernandez. Coming off 3 straight playoff years, all they needed was a pitcher and the highly touted brother of the World Series MVP was a good candidate. Plus they re-signed Bernie.
In 1997, they signed a multi-time all-star in Chili Davis, and the highly touted Japanese pitcher Hideki Irabu. Ho hum.
In 1996, they signed a pair of perfect game pitchers who had several all-star appearances. Again, ho hum.
In 1995, they signed David Cone. Actually, the Royals traded Cone to the Blue Jays for several minor leaguers (because they couldn't afford him), and the Jays traded him to the Yankees for several minor leaguers because THEY couldn't afford him. It's the same as a signing. And of course, Cone was the 1994 Cy Young winner, by definition the best pitcher in the AL.
See? Every year, the Yankees sign AT A MINIMUM a multi-time all-star and highly touted international prospect. Is that good enough for you?
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| | | 123 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 11032171
Sun, Jan 05, 2003, 19:25
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ok, i know they yanks spend alot, but go through some other teams, ex how about the mets. Glavine this year floyd this year, alomar last year, piazza a couple years ago, olerud a few years ago, mo vaughn i think last year, cedeno last year, I know there are alot more but that is just a short list.
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| | | 124 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 11032171
Sun, Jan 05, 2003, 19:27
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also add leiter, and Astacio to that list. It is easier for teams in big markets to spend more money.
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| | | 125 | beebop
ID: 4411513114
Sun, Jan 05, 2003, 19:39
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I think one of the points is, that even though they shell out those big contracts, if the player tunrs out to be a bust, they still seem to have some spare change lying around to sign someone else to a big contract. 2 of the players you(wiggs) mentioned about the mets, they were big busts, they dont have the spare change to sign someone else to try and cover the mistake of signing them.
Its the players fault for demanding those ridiculous salaries, and then think of all the money they get from sponsership deals. Its pathetic, but its also the owners fault for giving it to them. How much is A-Rod going to want for his next contract when his current one runs out???
Soon, maybe, some of the top FA's arent going to be signed because no one can afford them and they will start the season on the FA's.
Sorry if all this has already been said, but thats just my opinion. If the Yankees can afford it, good for them, let them waste millions on players like rondell white.
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| | | 126 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 11032171
Sun, Jan 05, 2003, 19:47
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I also dont believe the yanks ever offered arod 20 million. Why would then when they already have jeter. IIRC the Mets offered arod the big contract.
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| | | 127 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 22100300
Sun, Jan 05, 2003, 21:29
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The Yanks definitely did want ARod. He's head and shoulders above Jeter, offensively AND defensively.
The Mets also play in a huge market. Maybe you've heard of it. I do agree that, after the Yankees, they are the biggest spenders in baseball. They also don't spend very wisely, which is why they don't win much. Your examples do have some flaws. To get Mo Vaughn, they gave up Kevin Appier, who also had a large contract. To get Alomar, they traded away some serious minor league talent. That's different than signing Mike Mussina and Jason Giambi, who are, by the way, better than Alomar and Vaughn.
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| | | 128 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 11032171
Sun, Jan 05, 2003, 21:32
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i never said they werent better. I was just stating because people are bringing up players like ventura and weaver. They were picked up in trades as well.
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| | | 129 | Rogue Nine
ID: 2404357
Mon, Jan 06, 2003, 04:36
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To compare to AirSteve's list in #121, here are the top Expos free-agent signings in the same years.
2002- Troy O'Leary, Andres Galaragga
2001- Mark Smith (who?)
2000- Graeme Lloyd (and wow, did we ever overpay for him.)
1999- Nobody
1998- Nobody
1997- Nobody
1996- Nobody
1995- Nobody
quik_ag, #119. Actually, I'd love it if my Expos could even get to their level. There's something really fun about building a contender when your budget is 3 times smaller than the top team. Watching teams like the A's, Twins, Angels and Astros compete and grow each year is fun. I just wish someone would move my damned team already and at least give the Spos that chance.
Actually, according to Keith Scherer of Baseball Prospectus, the Expos have the 8th best rotation in baseball. (Assuming we don't have to move someone of course.) Here. Add in a lineup of Wilkerson, Vidro, Vlad and ?, and this team could actually do something if given a chance. (Just need one more good bat... Heeelllo Fernando Tatis, could you TRY and earn your 6 mil this season?)
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| | | 130 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 710321114
Mon, Jan 06, 2003, 11:35
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Lloyd was an attempt by Expos management to "prove" they were willing to spend. Of course, you could say the same thing about Giambi.
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| | | 131 | Rogue Nine
ID: 2404357
Mon, Jan 06, 2003, 13:46
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Yeah, I remember them bringing him into town as if he was our savior. Two months later we were back in the gutter. lol
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| | | 132 | Species
Sustainer
ID: 569221717
Mon, Jan 06, 2003, 14:41
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LMAO. Jealousy doesn't wear well on you blue hen. And it impares your ability to make a cogent argument.
2000 (signed in the calendar year of 2000 - Mussina's first season was the 2001 season) - Mussina for $88 mil. Hampton for how much? Kevin Brown for how much the year before?? Yes he was a top flight guy, but not irresponsible.
1999 - Andy Morales is an economy-shaking, spend at all costs, break the bank signing? ROFL.
1998 - Orlando Hernandez cost the Yankees $6.6 million.....for three years . Is that an economy-shaking, spend at all costs, break the bank signing? Nope. True the Yankees could afford to "blow" the money if he flamed out, but it wasn't exactly an irresponsible signing - kind of like signing Kevin Brown and Darren Dreifort was.
Oh, and IMO re-signing Bernie is not the same. Retention of home grown stars is different than "going out of their way to sign superstars every year". But that's just my opinion. It is still unfair to other teams, but being able to afford your own home-grown talent is not something to be criticized for.
1997 (again, played in 1998) - You are whining about Chili Davis? A DH role player?? Who was 38 at the time?? You are reaching dude. How much did he cost compared to other free agent signing that year? I'll answer it for you - chump change. As a matter of fact, the Yankees gave him a whopping $500,000 raise over what he made the previous year for your beloved Royals.
Officially Irabu was acquired via trade, but yeah it was basically a signing because the fat toad cried and wanted to come to the Yankees for the money....although it cost them an equally touted Ruben Rivera - who like Irabu never amounted to jack squat.
David Wells was signed before the 1997 season. Not exactly a superstar at the time coming off a 14 loss season and a 5.14 ERA. The Yankees gave him a $500,000 raise over his 1996 salary. Woo! Break the bank! lol
1996 - Rogers was a large dollar signing. Very true.
1995 - As you point out, Cone was acquired in trade and re-signed. Re-signing is 'going out of their way to sign superstars'? You say tomato, I say tow-mah-toe. You can slant it however you wish.
I stand by my point that you overblow the Yankees' free agent signing history. What they've done since the Giambi signing is much more obnoxious than what they did in the past....and what they did to win the 4 titles in 5 years.
Have a nice day!
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| | | 133 | RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 211013916
Mon, Jan 06, 2003, 14:57
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Sniff, sniff...I loved Chili Davis...sniff...
I can't be a yankee hater, I have a cousin who played last season in AA Norwich. Need him to get to the big bucks spending yankees (so I can hit him up for a loan! LOL.)
Personally, the most interesting post here is #50. Not because is shows the yankees continually outspending everyone, but the doubling of the top spender about every 5 1/2 years. Scary patern. Wonder how many teams aren't even to the 1995 yankees level yet?
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| | | 134 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 11032171
Mon, Jan 06, 2003, 16:18
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species, Thanks. It is nice to have alittle help here in this arguement.
BH, post 127. I have talked to many fellow yankee fans and none seem to remember the yankees making any significant play towards Arod. all the talk was him going to the mets and him and jeter both playing in NY. You said the mets gave up appier for vaughn? That is true, I forgot about him, but how did they sign appier?
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| | | 135 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 11032171
Mon, Jan 06, 2003, 17:05
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I have a question, why was matsui and contreras not entered into the draft? I just checked a website on contreras and it said he would be drafted by the Drays, but they didnt want him because he wouldnt sign. So then why didnt the 2nd team get a shot at him? Like Ming went into the draft. I dont know much about the MLB draft so any help would be appriciated.
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| | | 136 | Species
Sustainer
ID: 569221717
Mon, Jan 06, 2003, 17:47
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wiggs - only North American players are subject to the draft. With Contreras, when he defected he couldn't just come to the U.S. because he would've been subject to the draft. He had to establish temporary residency somewhere (I think it was Nicaragua) and then be declared a free agent.
Japanese players are bound to their professional teams for 10 years. They can be released (i.e. - didn't Ichiro's team let him out a year early?) or they can request a trade. The other way to get out early is to retire for one full year, then they are no longer bound to their Japanese team and are available to MLB as an international free agent (i.e. Soriano).
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| | | 137 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 11032171
Mon, Jan 06, 2003, 18:03
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thanks species.
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| | | 138 | AirSteve
ID: 2411382319
Mon, Jan 06, 2003, 19:29
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#134
-Appier signed as a free agent in Y2K for a tidy $8.5 million in his 1st year.
-The Rangers in essence ran the Pay-Rod bid up on themselves. No one else made an offer within $5 million per year. They took alot of heat for this at the time. Definitely Not a case of Yankee spending or even bidding.
#128
The Ventura and Weaver trades (particularly Weaver), as well as the Raul Mondesi for Scott Wiggins deal are sort of in the class of the infamous Millwood for Johnny Estrada deal in that one team picked up some pretty big salary bucks ($1.5 or $2 million / year per deal might not be much to you and me, but for many GM's it is). I thought Wiggs introduced Millwood before Mondesi, Ventura, and Weaver entered the discussion, but I can't find a post to support that. If I'm wrong here, I apologize.
#133- Here you go (sans formatting):
2002 Team Payrolls
N.Y. Yankees $125,928,583
Boston 108,366,060
Texas 105,302,124
Arizona 102,820,000
Los Angeles 94,850,952
New York Mets 94,633,593
Atlanta 93,470,367
Seattle 80,282,668 07
Cleveland 78,909,448
San Francisco 78,299,835
Toronto 76,864,333
Chicago Cubs 75,690,833
St. Louis 74,098,267
Houston 63,448,417
Anaheim 61,721,667
Baltimore 60,493,487
Philadelphia 57,955,000
Chicago White Sox 57,052,833
Colorado 56,851,043
Detroit 55,048,000
Milwaukee 50,287,833
Kansas City 47,257,000
Cincinnati 45,050,390
Pittsburgh 42,323,598
Florida 41,979,917
San Diego 41,425,000
Minnesota 40,225,000
Oakland 39,679,746
Montreal 38,670,500
Tampa Bay 34,380,000
#132- "Chump Change" is a matter of perspective, I guess. Here's the combined list of players for the Twins, Tigers, A's, Reds, Brewers, Expos, and Pirates who made more than Chump Change in 1998:
Kenny Rogers. Barry Larkin. Marquis Grissom.
So one GM's Chump Change is an expenditure that would be in 23% of the other GM's combined 99th percentile.
We can put one issue to rest - It's clearly true that the Yankees haven't signed any of the highest paid free agents in many years. It appears they spend the extra $17 to $81 million (as compared to the rest of MLB in 2002) elsewhere.
Some U.S. senator in the 1980's was fond of saying "Hey, a million here and a million there; pretty soon you're talking some big money..."
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| | | 141 | biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 589301110
Wed, Jan 08, 2003, 10:48
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Levine's gotta lower his caffiene intake. Nothing "must now stop."
They can choose to spend the money, and everyone else can choose to talk about it all they want, regardless of the agreement.
Get over your gluttonous selves. Buy your players, sit back, and be quiet, fat and happy. But don't expect fans, media or other teams to not point it out, and for some to be angry, because it is hurting competitive balance of the game.
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| | | 142 | Razor
Donor
ID: 411149818
Wed, Jan 08, 2003, 13:26
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Ya, ridiculous. I thought that Yankees were a lock to win the AL and the Series last year. I can't believe the Yankees upgrade their team every season. I'd call the Yankees the laughing stock of baseball if they can't win with a payroll $40 million higher than every other team.
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| | | 144 | AirSteve
ID: 2411382319
Wed, Jan 08, 2003, 19:14
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I guess this is my favorite part of the article in #139:
"The Yankees will get some serious payroll relief before the 2004 season, when a number of their long-term contracts expire. Hitchcock, White, Mondesi, Clemens, Andy Pettitte and David Wells will all become free agents after the 2003 season, giving the Yankees tremendous flexibility to work with."
Almost too many ironies to count.
..."Payroll relief?"...
..."Giving the Yankees tremendous flexibility to work with?"...
Well thank God for that.
It's been way too long since the Yankees had a little spending flexibility. Let's see what the Really can do with some free cash...
And then there's this twist on the famous Patrick Ewing "sure we make alot of money, but we spend alot of money, too...":
"There was a basic agreement that was entered into last year," Levine said. "That agreement provided a set of rules, whether our payroll was $140 (million), $180, $220 or zero. There are specific rules. We pay an awful lot in revenue sharing, and we will pay luxury tax. We heard a lot of discussions from team owners about competitive balance. The days of trying to hide your own problems by blaming the Yankees are over."
I'm with Levine. With this new agreement in place, Tampa Bay should be able to spend about $165 million this year.
Should make it alot more fun to watch that Yankee / D-Ray series.
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| | | 145 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 51059815
Wed, Jan 08, 2003, 19:19
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Air steve, who do you like and where are you from?
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| | | 146 | AirSteve
ID: 2411382319
Wed, Jan 08, 2003, 21:53
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Living and working in Vermont. I drive up to Montreal a couple times a year (usually opening day and $5 dollar entry / $1 dog, $2 beer night, which with the exchange rate involves about a $10 American night at the park, including gas both ways).
I was an absolutely rabid Dodger fan through the Garvey / Russell / Cey / Lopes years, and pretty much through the late 80's. More of a general baseball fan and a casual fan of the Dodger uniform since that time. I'll explain:
I'm not sure who else feels this way, but I really got turned off by free agency. When I first started watching Dodger baseball in 1978, it was all about The Penguin waddling out double-play grounders every year, and Bill Russell throwing balls away from short every year, and Davey Lopes stealing a ton of bases every year, and Steve Garvey standing like a rock at the plate every year. After Lopes got old, it was Russell and Sax throwing balls away every year. The Mexican screwballer staring up at his cap during his delivery every year. I hated the same Astros every year. The continuity was a really big deal. After Steve Yeager got old, Mike Scioscia came up from Albuequerque, and well, there you were. That was your catcher for the next decade.
I guess the bottom line was: I was a fan of group of players who were The Dodgers. Before they were The Dodgers, they were Albuequerque Dukes. Before they were Albuequerque Dukes, they were Dodgers at the low minor levels. Tommy Lasorda talked about Bleeding Dodger Blue, and I Believed him.
For me, free agency was an amazingly disturbing blow to my equilibrium as a fan. I was a Garvey fan. But then Garvey was a Padre. I was a Penguin fan. But then Penguin was a Cub. I was a Sax fan. But then Sax was a Yankee. Meanwhile Willie Randolph became a Dodger. In my mind Willie Randolph Should have been a Yankee. Eddie Murray Should have been an Oriole. Darryl Strawberry Should have been a Met. Eric Davis Should have been a Red. And Kirk Gibson's homer was really exciting, but he's still just this guy we bought because Detroit couldn't or wouldn't pay him, which sucks. He Should have been a Tiger.
So I was a vehement Dodger fan when there was a Dodger team that was composed of Dodgers and guys that the O'Malley's traded other Dodgers for.
Now (and for many years) I don't really identify with the team. Or any team. There's little Dodger Blue blood. I used to be able to talk with my buddies Every Day about whether the Dodgers were 3.5 games back or 4 games back or 6 games back from the division lead. Now I have trouble getting excited about the Dodgers making a run at the playoffs. It's not like: "how are the Dodgers doing," it's more like: "the Blue Jay's right fielder and the Braves left fielder are doing pretty good, but the Ranger's ace is hurt and the Expo's second baseman refuses to draw a walk, so it looks like the Dodgers may miss the playoffs again."
So my casual fandom of the Dodger uniform (as opposed to The Dodgers) is more a residue of my real Dodger fandom of over a decade ago. Very unfortunately, it's no longer anything I can get all that excited about. If our Japanese pitcher free agents are craftier than your Cuban pitcher free agents, hurrah for the dollars wearing the Dodgers uniforms. If the Oriole's ace is better than the Ranger's ace, hurrah for the dollars wearing the Yankee's uniforms.
Real baseball, disturbingly enough, has become a case of real baseball imitating fantasy baseball: "I want A-Rod. A-Rod for $40 bucks!" Hey, no problem. Sold. Hurray for us. We're great.
In retrospect, I guess I see more value in what Species was saying about how retaining home-grown players can be viewed in a different light than signing somebody elses home-grown players, or ripping them because the other team can't pay them.
At least that way Yankee Fan has a chance to be Jeter/Bernie/Pettite Yankee Fan for a decade. It's Expo Fan and his po-folk small-market compadre's who never had a chance to become Grissom/DeShields/Walker Expo Fan last decade, and won't get to become Vlad/Vazquez/Armas Expo Fan this decade.
For anybody too young to have missed it, it was pretty fun being a fan of a team of people instead of being a fan of a uniform pattern and a checkbook.
It just seems like yesteryear's "wait until next year when this player graduates from AAA" is somehow more noble than today's "wait until next year when this guy's big contract finally expires and we can afford to buy the best guy some other team can't afford."
To paraphrase Orwell: "Everybody's guilty. Some are just more guilty than others."
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| | | 147 | Whitey
Sustainer
ID: 47130129
Thu, Jan 09, 2003, 09:05
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Air Steve....that was a great post. I am a Yankee fan and even though it is great for me that the Yankees have won 4 world championships since '96 I still long for the days when I could count on seeing the same group of Yankees on the field every year. My time as a Yankee fan began in the early 80s with players like Ken Griffey, Jerry Mumphrey, Willie, Big Dave Winfield, Cerone, etc.. Soon after Donnie baseball joined the group along with Pags, Righetti among others.
Even though those teams weren't all that good, I still had more fun rooting for them than I do now. Baseball has changed drastically in the last 20 years and will never be the same again.
Again, thanks for the post AirSteve you brought back some good memories for me.
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| | | 148 | RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 42121814
Thu, Jan 16, 2003, 14:27
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Haha, for some reason I was up on eBay and decided to do a search for my cousin's name to see if he had any cards. Low and behold, up pops one. Yeah, I'm the high bidder at $1.
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