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| Posted by: Species
- Leader [7724916] Tue, Jul 13, 2004, 13:23
I think there is more than enough interest to have this be an ongoing thing - at a minimum it'll be worthwhile during the WSOP. Continue to post your thoughts, topics, bad beats and great bluffs here. I'll include some of the posts from the previous thread so we don't lose steam - but it was getting pretty long so I figured I would consolidate in a new thread.
94 Promize
ID: 9432612
Tue, Jul 13, 2004, 06:39 Well, I guess I was one of those guys who knew how to play the game, but didn't know how to play it at a casino etc... The casino's I was use to going to didn't offer poker games to much... I played in maybe 5 tourneys total (they had a system to try and make your way to a bigger tourney like Tournament of Champions, etc) Unfortunately, I had to travel back to Missouri so my 18th place in total points is going to be useless come time for the 1 day playoff.
Took me a couple tourneys to understand that playing live hands and playing tourneys are two different things for sure... In the beginning, I was very aggressive and would try and play any hand...
Finally in the tourney I finished 3rd in, was a combination of Moneymaker type river card wins and also understanding patients and waiting for those big hands to go all in on. I actually started getting the knickname Moneymaker when I kept knocking out 1 or 2 guys working my way up to the final table. At one point, while there was 10 people at the final table, and I was probably the short stack... I did get lucky and had pocket Aces... Knocked two people off the table and bam, was back in the running... The hand I was kicked off with I had pocket J's... The other guy flopped A Q... Of course the cards came out 2 8 Q.. That ended my run.
The tourney I came in fourth, patients played the key as I just held out... Played hands I had the best chance to win with (A K, A J, Q Q, etc) and just waited for people to be knocked out. At the final table, I don't even remember playing many hands while I watched the others eliminate each other.
Now that I am back in Missouri, I ran through St. Louis and stopped at the casino's there. To my surprise, the one casino had now started Unlimited Texas Holdem live games... That is a scary thought for me.. The temptation is already burning a whole in my pocket to get up there and win some cash...
95 ChicagoTRS
ID: 16611915
Tue, Jul 13, 2004, 11:11 biliruben - strategy against tight - loose.
The thought on playing loose players is that if you personally tighten up and only play premium hands when you do get in a pot a majority of the time you will have the best of it. I do a modified version of that by loosening up my starting hand requirements (especially when I have a position advantage over the loose players - last to act) but if the flop does not help me I am quickly out of the hand. I am either looking for two great starting cards and betting big or using my position advantage and limping in with any two ok cards and hoping that the flop makes a good hand. By only playing premium hands and premium position I should scoop a high percentage of pots I invest in. It is obviously very tempting to mix it up with the loose players when you have 2nd pairs or draws but this can be very costly as you can rarely put a loose player on a hand and they will end up scooping some big pots on you. The value of hands like suited connectors goes way up when playing at a table with a lot of loose players. Another important point...DO NOT bluff loose calling stations...they will not fold.
As for a very tight table this is a dangerous situation but the reason you can loosen up is you can steal pots/blinds especially with a position advantage. In a tight table it is possible to bluff and represent hands you don't have. Tight players will generally make 'good' laydowns if they think they are beat. Example: I have AQ UTG (bad early position)...I make a $4 raise before the flop...moderately large raise in the particular game. I get two callers. Flop comes 2-2-2...I check...late postion player bets $6...I check raise $12...he calls...turn comes and I come out betting $15...he folds and says your pocket pair must be better than my pocket pair. I didn't have crap but I knew he was a tight player and would get out of the hand if he thought he was beat...if he called my $15 I would have been in trouble (that is why those plays are dangerous). I would never make that play at a loose table as a loose player with a pocket pair in that position would never lay his hand down and if he is very loose he could even have the 4th deuce. The important thing with tight players is let go of your bluff if you get called or reraised (you know you are beat)...also try and get a feel for what you can bet to get people to fold.
Other things to take into consideration...number of players at the table. The less players generally the looser you can play as there are less hands dealt so less chance of great hands and the blinds come around more often so you need to win more hands to make up for your blind fees. Blind/ante amounts...the higher the blinds/ante in proportion to the average pot size the looser you need to play. If the blinds are very high...like late in tournaments the more value in the pot from the beginning. In games like .25 - .50 no limit with a $50 max buy-in...there is hardly anything in the pot to begin with and the pots can get to be $100+ with big hands so you can sit and wait for really premium hands before entering a pot....you can win one nice pot a night and make money. The game obviously makes a big difference also...Limit, No Limit, tournaments all play a little different. In regular cash games you have an unlimited amount of time to make money...in tournaments there is basically a finite amount of hands that will be dealt as the blinds increase so it is important to win more pots and build a stack. If you like playing a loose style look for games that suit your style...shorthanded games, heads up games.
96 Tastethewaste
ID: 105153011
Tue, Jul 13, 2004, 11:55 Matt G post 80 The only hand I played that I got beat by good cards, was the AA suited... but how often does that happen???
AA Suited never happens. If it did you really did have a bad night:)
97 Promize
ID: 9432612
Tue, Jul 13, 2004, 12:16 A A suited, sort of sounds like someone had a few cards up their sleeves! LOL
98 Matt G
ID: 19554168
Tue, Jul 13, 2004, 13:19 Sorry I meant to say AA in the hole, my bad... hahaha
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| | | 1 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Tue, Jul 13, 2004, 13:32
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Only a few hours until the next coverage on the WSOP. First program is NL Hold 'Em but the 2nd is Pot Limit Omaha. Anybody that could give insight into Omaha would be great. Never played the game before.
This really is a great thread. Can't believe I didn't catch the AA suited thing...I have read this thread over and over.
THK
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| | | 2 | beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 3531815
Tue, Jul 13, 2004, 13:56
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The only difference in Omaha is you are dealt 4 cards and you have to use exactly two of your 4 hole cards to make your hand with the 5 community cards. For example, if I'm dealt Ace of spades, 4 of Clubs, 5 of hearts, and 6 of diamonds and the board shows 3,8,10,2,Q with 4 clubs my best hand would be Ace high, not a straight or a flush.
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| | | 3 | Species
Leader
ID: 7724916
Tue, Jul 13, 2004, 14:24
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bmd - couldn't you use the 4 of clubs amongst your 4 hole cards to make the flush? You said there were 4 clubs on the board.
I get that you can't make the straight though.
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| | | 4 | blackjackis21
ID: 31611715
Tue, Jul 13, 2004, 14:42
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Species - sounds like then you'd be using 6 cards (the 4 of clubs and one other from your hand, plus the other four clubs up). I assume you can only build a five card hand, and MUST include two down cards.
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| | | 5 | R9
Leader
ID: 2624472
Tue, Jul 13, 2004, 14:47
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That's what I'm not sure of either. I know you can only use two cards from your hand, but is it a must? What if a royal flush is flopped/turned/rivered? No good?
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| | | 6 | blackjackis21
ID: 31611715
Tue, Jul 13, 2004, 14:52
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googled this site.
Omaha: Identical to Texas Hold 'Em, but final hands must include exactly 2 of the player's four cards and exactly 3 of the table's five cards.
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| | | 7 | Species
Leader
ID: 7724916
Tue, Jul 13, 2004, 15:02
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duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Thanks blackjack.
Interesting twist. I'll have to mess with it on the play money tables of Pokerstars.
Omaha would seem to create more action - you have more chances of making a hand that the other players can't figure out given your 4 cards.
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| | | 8 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Tue, Jul 13, 2004, 15:39
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Yea Omaha would seem like more luck than skill in reading players. It seems it would be very difficult to read, should be interested to watch tonight.
THK
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| | | 9 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Tue, Jul 13, 2004, 23:59
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After watching Pot Limit Omaha on ESPN today...I stick with my previous statements:
1) It is much harder to read a player
2) MUCH more luck is involved
Omaha is the luck of the cards. You play almost every single hand it seems because there so many possibilities. It's like rolling the dice (as the 2nd place poker player refered to the cards). I am sure "the world's finest Omaha players" would think different, but I sure could use some convincing.]
----
In the NL Hold 'Em session it seems the guy that won just had all the cards. The Pros talked about how he made no mistakes, yada yada...I also didn't see him bluff 1 pot or bet 1 pot he wasn't ahead in. It seemed he always had the cards to win the pots, and the KK at the end finished the job. Cool to see him win because you kinda knew he could use the $$$ more than the other pro players at the table. But also unbelievable since he just started playing 6 month previously.
THK
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| | | 10 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 36881
Wed, Jul 14, 2004, 01:25
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Omaha is not really luck...it is a VERY profitable game for good players who can quickly calculate pot odds. It is really a game of nut hands...at a 10 player table many times you need a straight or flush minimum to win a pot.
Below is a good web site for Omaha...the guy who runs the site is a world class Omaha player.
Play Winning Poker
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| | | 11 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 36881
Wed, Jul 14, 2004, 01:38
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If you want to make money online learn to play Omaha well...there is no easier game to dominate. Most people at low limits play the game terribly.
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| | | 12 | kev
ID: 3155515
Wed, Jul 14, 2004, 05:44
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I have really enjoyed reading these past threads, and will finally add my poker thoughts/history. I do not have the online experience as most of you (I have only played in casino's and with friends).
I became interested in poker after becoming interested in first sports betting, and then blackjack. I still do gamble on the NFL, but now my only casino games are craps and poker.
In Calgary, we have 2 casino's with poker. One is junky, the other is quite nice, with a really nice menu, and great dealers. I figured I would give poker a chance after winning in the games with my buddies.
After watching WSOP coverage, and of course, "Rounders", I decided to try. I have yet to enter a tourney (they don't happen very often here), but I am actually quite excited for this week. The Calgary Stampede is going on, which fills the casino's with tourists just having fun at the poker tables. It is quite fun to sit down and try and make some easy money.
I have a couple fun stories of bad beats and river wins, but I will hit on those when the time is a little earlier.
Keep up the great stories...I love them.
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| | | 13 | Species
Leader
ID: 7724916
Wed, Jul 14, 2004, 11:38
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Omaha is just a different breed. You heard the commentator mention more than once that when you have a big hand you MUST bet hard and heavy to draw out the draws. That's just part of the game. I found it hilarious when they would say on the river "all he needs is a jack, 9, 8, 6 or a diamond to win" LMAO. But it goes to the point that if you can calculate pot odds quickly you can be good in Omaha.
My initial reaction is akin to TRS' comment in post 10 - don't even bother if you don't have a straight or flush draw because two pair and even trips aren't going to win if many people are in the hand.
Re: THK #9 - the 'problem' with WSOP coverage is the editing. You don't necessarily get a real read on how the tourney is going. The guy who won could've bluffed a few times or made bad decisions that we didn't see. You just never know, I guess.
Good pair of episodes, though. It's cool seeing Omaha and stud to get a feeling for the other games.
I also saw the Sportscenter piece on Stu Ungar. Reminded me of Mick Jagger. But let's face it, in the high stakes poker world, I would imagine there are a lot of temptations out there to drag someone down - and it happens to a lot more people than the Stu Ungar's of the world.
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| | | 14 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Wed, Jul 14, 2004, 13:25
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I was wondering, how much is the entry fee into these smaller 32 tournaments in the WSOP? Anybody that could find it, thanks in advance.
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Species-
I thought it was hilarious also, the guy was like ok now "a J, 8, 7, 5, and diamond still give him the best hand" or whatever it was. It was ridiculous; he should have just mentioned the 1 card that didn't win, lol! The guy with the better hand...statisically had the worst hand BY FAR because of how many outs the other guy had. Omaha seems like a game of playing draws...that's it. ANY good Hold 'Em players can calculate pot odds and outs fairly easily IMO. I still don't see what would be difficult of Omaha. Pot odds and outs are easily calculated and you play cards that are straightening, potential flush draws, and pairs...
Just don't see it I guess. I am a Hold 'Em guy I guess. But I am off to the Play $$$ Omaha tables at Poker Stars.
THK
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| | | 15 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 16611915
Wed, Jul 14, 2004, 14:16
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WSOP tournament schedule...
Includes buy-in fees, results, reports, prize payouts, etc...
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| | | 16 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 16611915
Wed, Jul 14, 2004, 14:23
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Probably the best online site for poker information...a wealth of great articles, etc...
Poker Pages
Poker message board...have to really weed through a lot of crap to get to good messages/threads but a lot of the pros post on here and there are some very good poker minds to answer questions debate subjects if you can get through the spam and morons.
rec.gambling.poker
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| | | 17 | ¤ Mario LeMoose ¤
ID: 416421423
Thu, Jul 15, 2004, 00:42
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Believe it or not: Poker in the Olympics
Funny stuff ...
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| | | 18 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Thu, Jul 15, 2004, 01:31
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"Badminton? Are you kidding me? I get more exercise dragging pots." ---Phil Ivey
I love him and that is a hilarious quote!! LOL.
That whole site is a joke...really funny stuff.
THK
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| | | 19 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 16611915
Thu, Jul 15, 2004, 11:23
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Want to know the names of various Texas Holdem hands?
Examples:
AK = Big slick
KK = Cowboys
QQ = Siegfried and Roy (two queens)
Q3 = San Francisco Bus Boy (queen with a tray)
55 = Presto
etc...
Holdem Hand Names..
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| | | 20 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 13:50
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BUTT. Let's get some more chatter going. These threads are too great to see fall off the first page.
THK
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| | | 21 | beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 3531815
Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 14:01
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Anyone watch the live telecast on Fox Sports the other night. I enjoyed it much more than the WPT events and the WSOP. It portrayed the true side of poker. Listening to Howard Lederer comment on the action was more insightful than all the WPT telecasts put together.
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| | | 22 | kev
ID: 3155515
Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 14:33
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Like I mentioned above, I did go to the Calgary Stampede on Wednesday. Ended up around 5pm heading over to the Casino across the street, to get out of the sun, and see what the tables were like. Ended up being typically packed, so I put my name on the board for an opening and just played some craps in the meantime. I had signed up for a 3/6 table, as I am by no means a seasoned poker player, but seem to do alright at those tables.
After an hour, I ended up catching a couple of good rolls at the craps table, and walked away from there with an extra 250 bucks to my name. I decided with the extra cash, and sick or waiting, I would take the available seat at the 10/20 table. Bad idea. As soon as I sat down, I had the feel that this was the one table in there without any out of towners playing, which is what I was looking for. Everyone seemed to know everyone else.
I am a tight player. I rarely will bluff, but in time, have learned not to get bullied out of pots by people re-raising me. Still, at this table, early on, I just wanted to get a feel, which was helped by not really getting any hands. The first had I went in on was a 7-9 suited (hearts) on the big blind. Nobody raised, just checked, and the flop came down A93 with only the Ace being a heart. 2 people were in, and I called. Next card out was 5 of hearts. I checked, just wanting to see what action came around, and both other players checked. The river came out with another ace. I ended up calling a guys bet, thinking he was trying to steal the pot, and as I had 2 pair, but alas, he had another ace down.
I had a couple wins, but couldn't seem to beat anyone on the showdown, and was only winning small pots. I decided to move down to the 3/6 table when I realized my name was still on the board, and the lady with the big cleavage told me my spot was ready.
I had much better cards/luck at the 3/6 table, and I find these players are much easier to read. My first nice win came with an ace 3 suited. An old oriental lady was sitting to my right, and raised, which I called. She has a knack for playing very tight, and as such, only 4 people including myself were out for the flop, which came out A/7/3. Checks over to the lady, whom bets. I call, worried she might be sitting with pocket aces. Both other players call as well. The turn comes out with another 3, so I have made my full house. Check around to the lady, whom this time checks. I am pretty sure now, considering the way she always seems to play, that she is sitting with either Queens or Kings. If she had the pocket Aces, she would have bet harder, as I have seen her do in the past....I still could be wrong though, so I decide to check as well. The river comes out with the Queen. Excellent. First 2 players, both check, the lady bets. I raise, both other players fold. She says something in her language, taps her cards, and re raises. I don't have any clue what that meant, but I re raise back. After a couple minutes of pondering her cards, she calls, and turns over her Queens. I turn over my A3, and take the pot. It wasn't anything of a huge win, considering, but still, I liked the win vs a tight player.
Quick side note- on the next go around, I was the big blind, and had crap, something like 7-3 or 8-3 not suited. It just so happened, that everyone on the table folded to the small blind (the oriental lady). She looked at me and said something to the extent of "tappy tap", or "chingy chingy". I asked the dealer what this meant, and I guess it means that you both take back your bets and the deal moves on. Although I felt this was strange, I went along with it. Is this something that is common that I just don't know about? Anyone else?
I won a couple more small pots with just nice cards and most people folding out early.
I had 2 bad beats on the table.
The first one came to a guy I can only describe as your typical cowboy. Drinking a bud, with his big belt buckle, big cowboy hat, and Wrangler jeans. Being that it is Stampede time in Calgary, this isn't really a rare occurance. I got dealt KQ not suited, and call the big bling. Flop comes out 10/9/K. Cowboy man bets, some other, non desript guy raises, I call, Cowboy guy reraises, guy calls, I call. Turn comes out 4. Cowboy man bets, other guy inexplicably folds, and I call. River comes out Jack. Cowboy guy bets. I consider calling him, but siting with a straight, I feel confident in my hand. I raise, and he reraises. At this point, I look at the cards out, and figure he is probably sitting we are both sitting with the straight, and we will just be splitting the other guys money between us. Or that he is trying to win the pot from the young guy without a big cowboy hat. I end up reraising again, and he calls, and turns over the AQ, giving him the higher straight, and the win. In my haste to try and win a pot I thought I was going to split, I didn't even think of the AQ. See? Still have slow down sometimes. I am trying to win more pots by reraising instead of just calling, and this time it caught me.
My other bad beat was just losing on Pocket Cowboys to a pair of 2's. Pretty straight forward hand, it seemed. I raise, and considering how tight everyone seems to play, only 3 people call. Flop comes out 5/J/8. I bet, one folds, 2 people call. Turn comes out 8, I bet, one guy folds, one guy calls. River comes out 2. I bet, thinking the guy is just going to call, and he raises. Kind of perplexed, I call. He flips over his 2's, and I just kind of sigh. It wasn't a huge loss, but it still is one that stuck out.
I walked into the casino with 100 bucks. After winning 250 at craps, taking a real quick licking at the 10/20 table, and some little wins/losses at the 3/6 table, I walked away from the casino up 200 bucks, down a bit for poker. Being intruiged by tourney's, thanks to this thread, I asked the big chested lady if there were any Hold Em tournaments that are held. She said that they actually have tournament's every month and usually they get about 75 people. I decided to sign up for the August tournament.
It is a 50 dollar buy in, with a re-up if you need it.
My question is, when do you decide if you need to rebuy or not. It is a NL Texas Hold Em. I have gained a ton of advice from these threads, but I have never played in a tourney before, and am wondering what the best way is to play with the re-up?
Should I also stick to what I do best, and just play my conservative, somewhat tight gameplan? I figure that is my best way to survive in the tourney, yet I doubt it will win me anything....
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| | | 23 | TacoJohn
ID: 576191613
Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 14:34
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Just to echo what's been said there's actually almost no luck at all in Omaha, it's very straight-forward pot odds.
Hold'em has luck and that's why it's so popular.
You also don't play every hand in Omaha, and maybe play fewer.
For instance, you can never (or almsot never) play 3 of a kind because you can only use 2 and now you've eaten one of your outs. Also, cards from 5-10 are all pretty much useless in most cases.
Someone will always have a straight, a flush, or a full house unless the board doesn't allow it. You just have to calculate if you're gonna catch the nuts or not.
It's an incredibly boring game once you understand it, it's also a great game to win at.
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| | | 24 | beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 3531815
Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 14:45
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Kev, if that lady did have pocket Queens you should be counting your blessings. That Queen on the river made her full boat better than yours.
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| | | 25 | kev
ID: 3155515
Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 14:50
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blasted...I thought I checked over to make sure I had the cards written out right. I wrote down the cards after I left the casino so I could recount the story properly.
She ended up having 2 pair...compaired to my full boat.
I know she had Q's at one point that I beat her on the showdown.
I will make sure next time I re read what I wrote down more carefully rather than feel like a jackass.
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| | | 26 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 16:00
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kev-
First of all I am not a fan of rebuys, but they seem to be popular in real casinos (after hearing Species talking as well). However, to win a rebuy tournament you MUST rebuy (at least from my expierence in online rebuy tourneys) unless you are in the upper echelon of the tournament. Since you can rebuy most players begin more aggressive to begin to try to snag as many chips as possible knowing they can't be busted out totally.
Obviously never played in a live rebuy tournament so I will let Species or somebody else delve into the topic.
THK
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| | | 27 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 16:06
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TacoJohn-
My question is: who can't calculate pot odds, # of outs, etc. to be good at Omaha?
THK
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| | | 28 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 16611915
Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 16:43
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With a rebuy tournament you really only need to rebuy if you lose all of your chips...usually rebuys stop at a certain level in the tournament or specific time after the tournament starts. Normally after the rebuy time has expired everyone is offerred a chance to "add on" which is basically another rebuy but you just add the chips to your current stack.
I am not a big fan of rebuys as people with big bankrolls tend to play fast and loose early hoping to win a few big pots so they have a big stack at the end of the rebuy period. If they bust out they simply spend the money and rebuy...can be expensive. You almost have to play aggressive and plan to rebuy if you want to have a decent stack at the end of the rebuy period. So in you example where it is a $50 tournament expect to spend at least another $100 on rebuys and another $50 for add-on if offerred.
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| | | 29 | Species
Leader
ID: 7724916
Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 17:02
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Rebuys are just part of the rules, IMO. The key I suppose is to simply take into account how many rebuys or add-ons there are. In the 2 tourney's I've played in, there was only 1 rebuy allowed - and you had to rebuy within the 1st hour. In a tourney at the other area poker club in town here, it's just a $50 buy in with no rebuys - I'll have to try that one soon.
That 1st hour (or whatever the rebuy period may be) is definitely LOOSE - so if you have a big hand perhaps you can trap someone and add to your stack. But it's just part of the game that you have to take into account. I would never enter a tournament with add-ons or rebuys and not be ready to invest the money up front. Sure if you've raked in a lot of pots that first hour you can risk it and not add-on or rebuy - but to have a real chance it's pretty hard not to rebuy.
Plus it just adds more money to the pot! :)
TRS #28 - the limit tourney I did well in didn't require you to bust out. But the spread tourney did require it.
bmd #21 - I missed that one! Is it going to be on often? Damn I need to get my Tivo!
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| | | 30 | beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 3531815
Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 17:07
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Check your local Fox Sports. I'm sure they'll be rerunning it over the weekend.
In this years WSOP, Danial Negraneau(sp?) supposedly rebought 27 times in the $1000 dollar no limit texas holdem tourney. I think he had to get 3rd to even break even.
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| | | 31 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 17:19
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27 times!! WOW! He is a naturally loose player so I would hate to see him in a rebuy! LOL. He obviously does well though...good player, saw he had a nice ride at his mom's.
How did he finish? Or is it yet to be completed? I hope they put it on ESPN.
THK
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| | | 32 | beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 3531815
Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 17:30
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Rebuy Tourney
There's the link to it. Didn't want to spoil the outcome for anyone.
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| | | 33 | biliruben
ID: 441182916
Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 17:40
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Could someone explain how going all-in works? Are you somehow risking less than your competitors who do not go all in? Does it force a stoppage of raising, that might normally cost you more than you have?
In a related vein: Does the rebuy option provide mutliple opportunities for taking into account any advantage (if there is any) that going all-in gives you? In other words, if you were given an opportunity to start with $100 instead of $50 with a $50 rebuy option, would it be stupid to take it?
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| | | 34 | Species
Leader
ID: 7724916
Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 18:01
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bili -
All in simply means that you've risked all of your chips. Whether you had 100 chips or 1 chip, when you put all of your chips into the pot you are "all in".
One advantage is that you can then go to the showdown no matter what - i.e. you can't be bet out of the pot - so to answer your question - YES in terms of YOUR hand, going all in stops raises against you. Whatever is in the pot at the time you go all in is up for grabs and you are still in THAT pot.
If 2 or more other players are still playing as well, any bets THEY make after your all-in bet go into a side pot for those players. Thus, say there is $2000 in the pot after 2 players call your all-in bet after the flop. They in turn continue betting at the turn and river. Their $500 (as an example) will be on a side pot to be decided between their best hands. Conceivably player X will have a better hand than player Y - and player X will win the side pot. But player X has a WEAKER hand than you - you win that main pot (or it might be vice-versa on which pot is the main pot and which is the side pot ... lol).
Strategically, going all-in in a no-limit game is a way to bluff or to trap someone with a big hand - depending upon how many chips you have, of course. You can steal some pots by bluffing, or you could get trapped by a good hand and be left with nothing.
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| | | 35 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 18:44
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beastiemiked-
Didn't know that was the rebuy. Watched it on Tuesday. 27 rebuys...unreal!
THK
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| | | 36 | biliruben
ID: 441182916
Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 18:46
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Thanks, species. So the rebuy is advantageous, and you should generally opt to do it?
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| | | 37 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 36881
Sat, Jul 17, 2004, 00:07
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Rebuys are advantageous if you end up placing in the money in the tournament. If you are playing a rebuy tournament you should plan on doing it though.
In the event with Negraneu (WSOP event) the rebuys were $1000 a pop and he did have 27...he did come in 3rd and won like 97K...so worked out to be pretty profitable.
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| | | 38 | Species
ID: 26471422
Sun, Jul 18, 2004, 15:24
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Went to the local card club last night.......played for 4 hours on my usual $3-6 table.
Started with $200 in my pocket. Must've blown through the 1st $100 in chips in less than an hour, so I bought my 2nd $100. Early I was chasing a little bit and not hitting my hands, and you do that enough times you're going down. I got more patient and played a little tighter and started to take down some pots.
The best hand of the night involved a K-4 unsuited while I was on the button. Since I had already kicked in my $3 on the button, I called a raise to the flop for another $3. There were probably 5 or 6 in on that flop, so a nice start to the pot.
Flop comes K-5-K so I'm trip Kings - but I'm worried about my kicker so I don't raise yet. Thankfully probably 4 people are still in the pot. Turn card is a 10 or something non-descript - so there are NO straight draws out there anymore, although there are two hearts. 3 players are still there for the $6 bet.
Now keep in mind I'm on the button. A guy 4 seats to my left has been betting hard the whole time - he had raised pre-flop so everyone was checking to him since. He's been firing strong with no hesitation, so I'm concerned he does have a King and it's pretty hard not to have a better kicker. Especially with the fact that the other 2 cards on the board are 10-5, I worry he has A-K, K-Q or K-J.
So the dealer is preparing to deal the river. The guy says "Come on King!" and the King hits! so he goes "Yessssssss!". I keep a straight face as I have four Kings. The 3rd guy in the pot checks, and the bluffer bets. I raise of course and the guy knows he's sunk! The 3rd guy folds of course, and the poor schlep who chose the wrong hand to bluff with is reluctantly forced to call.
I smile I turn over my King - the table ooohs and aaahs a bit as I rake in a pretty huge pot - probably $90 or more. From starting with $100, losing that, getting another $100 at this point I know have $440 or so in front of me. I made a big traingle of $20 stacks in front of me the size of a billiards rack. lol......was cool.
I got a little happy after that and tried to bluff with a 3-6 offsuit. The hilarious thing is the guy I went to the showdown with only had a 9-7 of spades. So his 9 took the pot! The confused looks on people's faces told the story. BUT - it's good to keep people guessing, so perhaps that bluff will make people think the next time I bet with a big hand.
One other quick one. Had pocket 9's and flopped a set. The poor schlep who went to the showdown with me, who had SEVERAL bad beats in the short time he was there, had 2 pair - aces and queens. Before calling my bet after the river he wondered out loud "Does he have a set down there?". I almost felt bad when I turned mine over.
Walked out at 2:10 am with $380 -- so up $180 for the night. :)
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| | | 39 | Eat Acid
ID: 56646190
Mon, Jul 19, 2004, 01:58
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Don't have time for much here, but omaha is less about luck than hold-em. And a good player will actually play less hands. PL hi-lo is the most profitable game I play online, followed closely by PL omaha hi, then stud hi lo. Holdem is fourth, and has had 3 negative months out of 6, and July is about even. Taco's explanation is exactly right, although I never find it boring to win. If playing omaha hi, the only hands that can play after the flop are the nut flush draw, the 3 card nut wrap straight draw, and top set. The worst hands someone can play are bottom set, dummy-end straight draws, and k or q hi flush draws. Second best is always the first loser. GL all.
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| | | 40 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Mon, Jul 19, 2004, 03:37
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TacoJohn, EatAcid, and other Omaha advocators...
My question still stands in post 27.
THK
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| | | 41 | Eat Acid
ID: 56646190
Mon, Jul 19, 2004, 04:43
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Kev-22--Its called chopping. In a real tight game you'll see it about 3 times an hour. No reason to play heads up with crap, I always chop, unless the person says they never chop. The only situation you want to avoid is people who want to do it on a case by case basis.
Got a funny story about chopping. I'm in the small blind and its folded around to me and I ask the guy if he wants to chop. He says no we aren't chopping this time this is the best hand I've had in an hour. I say ok, but that means we never chop, and then I look down to kings. So I raise to 20, he comes over for 30, I cap it. Flop comes K-4-4 and it gets capped at 40 again. Next card is the worst card in the deck, the ace overcard. I check and he smiles and bets, I flat call. Last card is a brick, I check and he bets, and I contemplate. No question I'm calling with the third best possible hand, but does he really have AA? He did cap it twice on me, and I'm not exactly regarded as a fish at this particular establishment. I flat call again, and am really kicking myself when he turns over AK for top 2 pair. Made 40+40+20+20-5cut=115 on a hand I never would have looked at had this guy had any poker etiquette at all, but cost myself at least 20 more by not coming back at him on the turn.
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| | | 42 | Eat Acid
ID: 56646190
Mon, Jul 19, 2004, 04:52
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THK=everyone. Noone will listen to post 39. People will still play 3-4-4-Q in omaha hi, with a suit on the lady, catch either a flush draw, a 4, or 5-6 open end. They cannot comprehand that they are drawing dead! If the flop comes down 9-6-4 with that hand, I'd rather have 9-6 or 8-7 than 4-4. The reason? Because if the board pairs unless its the case 4, you lose. If a straight hits, you lose. If a flush hits, you lose. If someone takes one off to hit their big pair on the turn, you lose. Bottom set=garbage, almost always drawing dead. Thats where the overlay is for a skillful player. I never mathematically calculate pot odds like sklansky/malmuth advocate because it just takes too long and is very boring. But I'm nev er drawing dead. If I have a draw to the nuts, I call. If I have the nuts, I'm either firing away or trying to trap someone in pot limit.
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| | | 43 | TacoJohn
ID: 576191613
Mon, Jul 19, 2004, 14:17
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Acid is right on.
Anyone *can* play Omaha pretty well with even like 30 minutes of explanation/training.
The fact is that people *don't*
There are too many Hold'em players who don't know what a good starting hand is.
Some examples for Omaha Hi-Lo:
AA77 This hand looks good to a hold'em player, but unless an ace is suited I would never play this. You have essentially no low, so you've lost half the pot already. Plus you need to pick up an A or a 7 *and* have the board pair (remember you can only use 2 of your hole cards) to get a full house. Someone will always have at least a straight or a flush in Omaha, so a set won't win it.
AAAK There are people who play Omaha and actually play hands like this. You have no low again. You can't even use the 3rd ace and having it means you probably won't catch another one to make a set. This should be folded as fast as you can.
People don't realize the guy next to them has 16 outs for the nuts and they're excited about having 16 outs to make a 2nd best straight or 2nd best flush or a worthless set.
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| | | 44 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 48624198
Mon, Jul 19, 2004, 14:57
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Taco...most of the Omaha I have seen played online is high only...in that case AA77 is not terrible (especially if at least one of the A7 is suited). But I do agree with your points.
Personally I only play Omaha rarely as I am a Holdem player. I know I am not a very good at Omaha but am still good enough to make money at it when I play, which says a lot about the average online Omaha player.
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| | | 45 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 48624198
Mon, Jul 19, 2004, 15:30
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Interesting Holdem hand from last night...
I am playing .50 - 1.00 blinds no limit holdem...max buy in $100. Bought in for $100 and have been sitting at the table about an hour sort of treading water been as low as ~$60 and as high as $115...currently have $87. I play a pretty tight aggressive game but am not adverse to bluffing if the right situation arises...I think I am probably hard to read for other players except the fact that I do not see the flop with junk hands. I play a very aggressive style when I get cards so I do not go to showdown often thus keeps people guessing as to what I have/had. The more you don't show your cards the more people start thinking your bluffing a lot especially when you have had a good run of hands.
I have targeted two loose aggressive players at the table who have had very wide fluctuations in their stack sizes. They are not playing terrible and are stealing enough pots that their strategy is working for the time being. On to the hand...
I am UTG (under the gun - first to bet)...get dealt QQ. I open with a $3 raise...average size raise at this table...being UTG I don't want to scare everyone off the table. One of the loose aggressive players raises to $6...both are in the pot...I just call...figure one or both have an A or K so I want to see the flop before getting too aggressive back at them.
Flop - KKQ. I now have a full boat...hoping one of them has a K or ideally an AK. I know going against these two players with this hand I am committed to getting all of my money in the pot and take my chances. I am first to act and come in for a small $4 raise (trapping raise...kind of representing nothing)...next player raises to $8...call from other loose aggressive. I reraise to $20...I guess just to see where I stand and build the pot so it makes it harder for them to fold later and to see where I stand. Both just call...which makes me believe I have the best hand as I would expect a raise from KQ or KK. Turn is a 10 - should not be much help for anyone...puts a possible straight out there which I don't care about. I bet $30 about half of what I have left...original raiser calls...I figure he has a K and really I would not mind him folding as I don't want him to draw a bigger fullhouse but am happy he did not reraise. River comes a low blank...I go all-in with my last $30 he calls and I win ~$180. He did have AK.
The fun of no limit holdem...all it takes is one monster hand and a double up and you are making a lot of money. Obviously it can go the other way and you can lose all of your money but there are enough people that will either chase or call with mediocre hands that I don't think it is hard to win a lot more than you lose...probably something I should start keeping stats on but I think that I am probably around 80% in all-in situations.
I think the absolute most important thing when playing NLHE is to be VERY aggressive when you have a great hand. You need to make money when you have the nuts. I see so many tight players make little $5 bets when they have great cards and yes they scoop the pot but only win 20-30 dollars on a hand I would made $100. If you are afraid of losing everything in front of you...you should be at a lower limit.
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| | | 46 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Mon, Jul 19, 2004, 15:56
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TRS-
Where did you play?
THK
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| | | 47 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 48624198
Mon, Jul 19, 2004, 17:33
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online...Primapoker Network
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| | | 48 | wiggs
ID: 206461913
Mon, Jul 19, 2004, 17:44
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i play at absolute poker.com if anyone else does let me know, maybe we can play sometime.
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| | | 49 | beastiemiked
ID: 262411016
Mon, Jul 19, 2004, 20:34
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Both just call...which makes me believe I have the best hand as I would expect a raise from KQ or KK
What's your reasoning on thinking a player holding the absolute nuts would reraise?
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| | | 50 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Mon, Jul 19, 2004, 21:13
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I would venture to guess because he had just reraised to $20 at a .5/1 table. If a player held the absolute nuts and somebody comes over the top of him with a large bet based on the bankroll (like TRS did) that player is there until the river most likely so he (the person holding the absolute nuts) could have come BACK over and re-raised just to either win the pot there or get the other player (TRS) all-in.
THK
THK
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| | | 51 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Mon, Jul 19, 2004, 21:13
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Sorry about the 2 THK's...I'll leave this one out to balance. ;-)
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| | | 52 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 36881
Mon, Jul 19, 2004, 22:37
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#1 reason I would expect a reraise was the two players I was up against both were ultra aggressive. Against a more seasoned player, with the nuts I would expect the slow play. I did not think either of these guys had this play in them. I really did not fear KK as seeing their earlier play I would have expected a larger raise before the flop. So I had one hand to realistically fear and if they had it more power to them...they would take my money.
I figured I was pot committed right after the flop and generally I like being the aggressor into the pot in that situation...control the action. My goal was to get all of mine and their money in the pot and take my chances. I wanted to raise early to build the pot to pot commit one or both players so they had to play it out.
There are certainly other players I would have played the hand a little more conservatively.
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| | | 53 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 36881
Mon, Jul 19, 2004, 22:39
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BTW it is really not that out of the ordinary for those size bets at the .50 - 1.00 NL table. Every hour there will be a hand or two that bring $100+ pots.
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| | | 54 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 36881
Tue, Jul 20, 2004, 00:13
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Hand of the night...
.50 - 1.00 table again. I am in big blind and get dealt KK. The table tonight is very unpredictable...a few hands ago a guy wins $190 pot with a pair of Qs jack kicker. Really ugly hand. I don't have a really great read on anyone. Some loose aggressive types but selectively over aggressive other times passive. No obviously terrible players.
$4 raise before I bet...2 people in...I raise to $12. First player goes all-in for $85 total...other player folds...I type "you have AA?"...he replies "call and find out"...I don't really like the situation but his response makes me believe he does not have it...plus the other player took some time to fold and threw out some expletives making me think he had a decent hand, maybe Ax. I call the all-in...scoop a $172.50 pot...he had QQ...flop did not help either of us. His response pretty much sealed my call...'strong means weak' tell.
Probably not the best call in the world...figured there was probably a 50/50 chance he had AA...took the gamble - paid off. Hours work...up a $100.
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| | | 55 | Chuck
Sustainer
ID: 169212110
Wed, Jul 21, 2004, 17:37
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I'm playing in a no-limit freeroll on pokerstars right now.
Started w/ 7509 players
Down to 184
I'm in 10th place in chips (currently) w/ $176K in chips (started w/ $2K each).
Name is Chuck42181, if anyone wants to follow.
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| | | 56 | Species
Leader
ID: 7724916
Wed, Jul 21, 2004, 18:14
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SWEET! You go Chuck. Don't give in, don't change your smart play........do us proud!
I might try a sit-n-go tonight. Got the bank account ready to go.
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| | | 57 | Chuck
Sustainer
ID: 169212110
Wed, Jul 21, 2004, 18:50
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Down to 44
I'm in 4th
Thanks for coming THK!
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| | | 58 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Wed, Jul 21, 2004, 18:53
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Chuck ranked 5th of 42. Top 9 gain entry into an Omaha H/L tournament.
THK
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| | | 59 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Wed, Jul 21, 2004, 18:55
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Like I told Chuck...I was wanting to sign up yesterday. I remembered today at 1:31...registration was closed and the tournament had be going an entire 1 minute! :-(
THK
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| | | 60 | Chuck
Sustainer
ID: 169212110
Wed, Jul 21, 2004, 18:57
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At the final break:
5 of 42 people
I'm @ $505,906
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| | | 61 | Species
Leader
ID: 7724916
Wed, Jul 21, 2004, 19:26
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Strategy question in general, but it pertains to Chuck at this moment.
In a tournament, if you are getting down to the final table and are amongst the top few in chips, do you get to a point to where you almost never play a hand and just let everyone else fall by the wayside? Or do you just stick to really premium hands and not let your betting get out of control?
Or, do you stick with what got you there?
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| | | 62 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Wed, Jul 21, 2004, 19:56
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Chuck ranked 3rd now out of 10. He just survived an ALL IN vs the chip leader who had a lot of outs.
THK
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| | | 63 | Chuck
Sustainer
ID: 169212110
Wed, Jul 21, 2004, 20:00
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Species... as I just made the final table, I will tell you that was pretty much what I did.
When I was short stack w/ about 10 left (see post 62), I went all in, b/c blinds would kill me first. After that, barely played anything.
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| | | 64 | Chuck
Sustainer
ID: 169212110
Wed, Jul 21, 2004, 20:24
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Well, here is my demise. It was the hand before that did it, not the final one.
Down to 7 players, I had KQ os w/ about 500K in chips. Put in about 200K; called by 2 people which makes me nervous.
Flop is like 2-6-7. I act last, and both come out firing. I fold, as there is flush and straight draw potentials, and I have king high. So next card is junk (don't remember); more betting by the other 2. Then King on the river. I figure someone has pocket pair and someone hit a pair. Sure enough, pocket tens takes down deuces. Had I stayed in, I would have won! D'oh!
So next hand I get A-7 suited (clubs). As a huge short stack, I go all in. Called by K-9 os. Flop: K, 9, 5; 1 club. Then comes 2 of clubs. But I get polished off by the queen of hearts at the river.
Finish in 7th place out of 7509. It qualifies me for an omaha hi/lo tourney on Sunday w/ a cash prize of up to $100. I'll take some time to practice over the next few days. I did finish top 300 in one of those a few weeks back, so I'm slightly encouraged going against a lot of hold'em players.
I played a couple of junk hands in the blinds at the final table. It wasn't worth it. Blew about 200K in abour 4 or 5 hands. Should have just held for top hands and played aggressively and folded everything else.
Anyway, it was a good experience for the last 6 hours. A chance to win some $$ is just bonus. It's tourney 2090164 for those who care.
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| | | 65 | beastiemiked
ID: 262411016
Wed, Jul 21, 2004, 20:43
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You made top 9, that's all that mattered in that tourney. Nice job, Chuck.
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| | | 66 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Wed, Jul 21, 2004, 21:17
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LOL. I entered a 4,000 man free roll at PokerStars...my first ever free roll.
I raise pre flop with KJs in late position. 4 callers...
Flop comes T77, small bet and called by 1
Turn comes K...didn't think I would be called preflop if anybody was holding a 7 and think I have the best hand
river comes 5...
I bet, he raises...already committed and I call.
He turns over a 7/5 os! LOL...free rolls people call anything in the beginning I guess. Oh well...just wanted to play some cards, but its hard to play with idiots sometimes...
***Makes Chucks accomplishment that much greater!
THK
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| | | 67 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Wed, Jul 21, 2004, 21:19
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BTW...that was in like the 10th minute of the tournament, haha.
I kind of want to open up my real $$$ account again and actually play some tournaments with real players....would love to play Species and some others in a sit-n-go.
THK
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| | | 68 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 36881
Wed, Jul 21, 2004, 23:53
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Free rolls are tough especially in the beginning as people are there to just gamble and double or get out. I pretty much play them the same way...wait for a couple of good openers and go all-in and hope someone follows. Figure I want to build a big stack early or just get eliminated as you really need to go far to make any money.
The Prima sites (I play on Gaming Club) have some decent freerolls...they have a couple $1000 free rolls every night that usually only have about 500 people entered. I guess they are only sort of freerolls as you need to have played 50 raked hands in the past 24 hours to gain entry...usually not a problem for me to gain entry and I win a couple bucks every couple nights plus gain some tournament experience.
I am not a big tournament player as I find they take a lot of time and I like the more steady earning of the money tables rather than the one big rare pay day.
I did come in 7th once in a 50K tournament and won $750...I do admit that was nice. Tournaments are fun but I am more in it to make a steady part time income.
BTW...congrats Chuck 7th out of 7500 players is incredible. Too bad it wasn't like a $50 entry tournament...you would have walked away with a few thousand.
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| | | 69 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Thu, Jul 22, 2004, 02:38
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TRS-
$$$ tables are definitely the way to win cash online as oppossed to tournaments. I love the $1, $2, and $3 tournaments PokerStars has each night...just for fun to see how high I can finish. My best finish was 10th of 1,400+...1 shy of the final table. I closed my cash account awhile ago, but these threads are inching me closer to re-opening it! ;-)
How much was the entry into the tournament that you placed 7th? Those Free rolls at your place sound nice...much better than the Free rolls at PokerStars, but free rolls are pointless when you have $$$ in your account.
THK
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| | | 70 | Hans Gruber
ID: 18654169
Thu, Jul 22, 2004, 09:29
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Here's a WSOP question...I've been watching the World Series of poker on ESPN, but I'm not really sure how it all works. Every week there's at least 1 hold em final table, and the winner of that table wins a bracelet. But how do you actually win the entire world series? Do they take the winners of each table and match them up at the end? For example, what did Moneymaker have to go through last year when he won?
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| | | 71 | beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 3531815
Thu, Jul 22, 2004, 09:44
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Moneymaker won a tournament just like the tourney's they are showing on TV right now. He won the "Main Event" $10,000 buy in event, the one that people most want to win.
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| | | 72 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 48624198
Thu, Jul 22, 2004, 09:54
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Hans...the World Series of Poker consists of 33 events. The one we are all used to seeing is the final event the $10000 No Limit Holdem event. This year ESPN is showing many of the earlier events. The World Series of Poker runs over a one month period (Apr 22 - May 28). Some of these earlier events have lower buy-ins, different games, rebuys, etc... You do win a bracelet if you win any of the events. But...the granddaddy of all of the events is the 10K NL Holdem championship...it is where the most money is and carries the most prestige.
Check this link for a schedule of all of the events, results, entry fee, games, etc...
2004 World Series of Poker
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| | | 73 | GoatLocker
ID: 205472715
Thu, Jul 22, 2004, 10:03
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The final is the $10,000 buy in game.
Just enter your name and play if I understand right.
Some won their seats via either live or internet Satellite.(Tournaments that they got into for much cheaper.)
There is a book called "Positively 5th Street" written by an author named Jim McManus that played in WSOP 2000. His editor gave him some seed money to write articles about WSOP and the murder trial of Ted Binion.
He actually made the final table.
Does a real good job of giving insite on that particular tournament.
Cliff
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| | | 74 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 48624198
Thu, Jul 22, 2004, 10:08
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TaRhEElKid...the event I placed 7th in was sort of a freeroll. Invite only to the 500 players who had played the most raked hands in the past 2 weeks. I think there was 25K in prize money (not sure about that maybe it was less) and probably around 450 people played. I sort of limped into the final table with a smaller stack...was happy a few people got eliminated before me as everytime someone was eliminated it was like an extra $150 in my prize winnings.
In the nightly $1000 freerolls I have made the final table 4-5 times...best finish was 5th. Have had some awful bad beats on those final tables...I will win one of these days. But even making the final table in these events is a nice little payday...I think $40 for 10th and then escalates from there and these freerolls only have like ~500 players so there are not that many people that it is impossible to do well. The freerolls start at midnight central...so I really only get to seriously play them on the weekends...during the week I might play for the first hour and if I have a big enough stack just go to bed and I will get in the top 20 or so by just getting blinded out and make $10 or so.
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| | | 75 | Species
Leader
ID: 7724916
Thu, Jul 22, 2004, 11:36
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Enjoyed my virgin experience at online poker for real money last night on PokerStars.
First, the enrollment with NETeller was fascinating! Armed with my address and some other fairly non-descript info (although they did have the last 4 digits of my SSN) NETeller was able to ascertain my residency history! As part of their security screening, somehow they tap into a portion of my credit report with that residency history. They even had an address I lived while in college 15 yrs. ago. Anyway, I just found it interesting.
I did 4 Sit-N-Go's last night. Started with just a $6 one (1 table) because it was nearly full and I wanted to get my feet wet. Busted out of there pretty fast. Did a $10 one (two tables) and lost on the final table.
The next $10 tourney (one table) was where dreams are made. From the very first hand I was getting powerhouse hands left and right. I swear in the first 20 hands I must have won 12 or 13 of them. After winning 4 or 5 I think people thought I was bullying/bluffing because I was getting calls and beating them all at the showdown. I checked my stats once and had won an incredible 9 out of 12 at the showdown.
The hand of that tournament was probably 15 hands in. I already had a COMMANDING lead - something like 4500 chips where the next guy has 2300 and most people have 1400 or less. I have JJ and raise pre-flop. Only 1 guy calls (these guys are sick of losing to me). Flop comes A A J. The other guy bets pretty big (400 or so) so I put him on an ace but figure no way in heck he has AJ. I raise HIM and he goes all in and turns over A 10 vs. my full house. Turn is nothing....he needs A or 10 to stay alive. BOOM! A 10 and he takes the chip lead.
It didn't matter. I had my money back within like 5 hands and re-took the chip lead. By the time we got to 3 players, I had 10000 in chips and they each had 1500. It was a blowout.
Lastly I did a $20 tourney. One gal goes all in on the 2nd hand and loses. Another busts out minutes later. Feeling the rush from the previous tourney I'm a little loosey-goosey and find myself with by far the shortest stack. I survive two all-ins, including a river beat to stay alive. With 4 players it seemed like the chip lead changes with every single hand - we're all pretty even. I make it to the final two and got beat.
All told, I'm up over $50.00 (including NETeller's charge of 9%!) playing these little tourneys - I wanted to get my feet wet for low dollars. Man they are addicting and it is just TOO EASY to get into a game!
THK - if you are around after 9:30-10:00 Pacific some nights, we could probably hook up.
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| | | 76 | Species
Leader
ID: 7724916
Thu, Jul 22, 2004, 11:44
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Oh.......forgot one other point about NETeller that was both freaky (in a big-brother kind of way) and impressive at the same time:
When you make your INITIAL deposit with NETeller, they explain on the website that someone from their security area will call to verify the deposit and some info.....or I can call 1-800-blahblah. Itching for some action, I start to call the number given 1 minute after I initiated my deposit. Before I could get TEN seconds into that call, the other line on my cell beeps and a NETeller security representative is armed and ready to take my information.
Like I noted above - I wasn't sure if I was more impressed with that response or more wigged out by it! lol
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| | | 77 | leggestand
Sustainer
ID: 451036518
Thu, Jul 22, 2004, 13:15
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I have been following these threads for a while, and since I went to Tampa on a business trip the past two days, I decided to stay at the new Hard Rock Hotel/Casino and try my luck at some hold 'em. The tables I played, and highest tables avaliable, were only $2-$2 limits, though, so, bluffing was uncommon because you were constantly seeing 6+ guys stay around to see the flop. I ended up down $30 total in my 3 sittings, which stunk because I was up $70 after my first two sittings. Some highlights from my hands:
In my first sitting, I am in the dealer with A-3 suited. Raise is to $4, and 5 of us stay in to see the flop. The flop comes out 2-K-2. First 4 guys check, so, I think I am sitting pretty with A high, and bet. Two guys drop out, leaving 3 in to play. I think that maybe one of them has a K, but I doubt it. Turn card is another 2. Two guys check and I bet thinking that no one has hit anything yet, so, I am thinking the only thing that might hurt me is matching someones A without a good kicker. River card is and A, so, I just got a full house, and worse case I split the pot. 1st guy bets, 2nd guy calls, I raise, and we continue to raise until we reach the limit. We flip over, and I tie a guy who also had an A, but, the other guy was sitting on the 4th 2. I couldn't believe it. He wouldn't bet the card so I thought he had nothing, and in the end he took a pretty nice pot.
My 2nd sitting was a little more eventful than the first. I was getting crushed and lost about 50% of my initial bank roll without even making it to a showdown. I'm in the big blind and get Q-3 diamonds. Pot is slightly raised, but I go in since I am the big blind. Q-Q-5 off the flop, so, I raise the first guys bet. Surprisingly a bunch of people stay in, so, I am hoping that I don't get caught. River card is a 3, and I have a boat. Once again 4 people stay in. Last card is irrelevant, I win the hand, and from being down $30, I am now up $10.
About 3 hands later I am looking at a Q-3 hearts. I figure Q-3 red suited is my lucky hand so I stay in. Q-5-3 off the flop, one heart. Some people stay in, and the river card is a 2 of hearts. Now I am worried about a possible straight vs my two pair, but I stay in hoping that no one stayed in with a 4 (even though I stayed in with a 3). River card K of hearts, so, I have my flush, and now hope someone just paired, or 3 of a kind K's. Someone paired K's and 5's, so, I take home about a $50 pot. It was a great feeling to win $90 in a matter of 5 hands. The lesson of that sitting was always play Q-3 red suited.
My last sitting was a disaster. I don't know if I was playing with people that couldn't care less about money or were drunk, but the hands these guys were playing were ridiculous. Three examples of my ruined sitting:
1. I have A-K of clubs. Almost everyone stays in. K-4-K flop (one heart), so, I have three of a kind, Ace kicker. I bet like I have three of a kind just hoping to take the decent size pot aready accumulated. Three of us stay in. River card is 8 (heart). No help to me, and unless someone is sitting on pocket 4's or 8's, I am fine. One guy stays in with me. He is obviously drunk, and bets no matter what. He has already commented that he will "always see a flop," so, I am thinking easy money. I think that a flush is possible, but with the amount of money he put in this pot he can't be just hoping for a card. Last card is a 9 (heart). He bets, I raise, he calls. My 3 of a kind loses out to a flush.
2. I am the big blind. Everyone calls me, and I check with a 3-5. Flop is A-2-4, so, I flop the straight with an awful hand. A bunch of people stay in, and I am hoping that poo poo cards come out on 4th street and river. Next card is a 4. Worries me a little bit, but in trying to get people to drop out, I bet and it's left to me and the guy I mentioned above. Last card is a 9. He bets, I raise, he raises, I call. He was holding onto a 4 and 9, so he makes a full boat to take down my straight.
3. I am down to $6 and am dealt J-7 hearts. I go all in because I am two deals from being the blinds and don't know if I will see anything better. 5 people call. J-5-7 flop. I got two pair. Three people stay in. 4 on the river. One guy bets, and the other drops out. 3 on the river. Without looking I knowing he has a 6. Sure enough he had 6-4 and knocks me out.
Overall, I don't like limit hold 'em with such low betting levels. Almost everyone stays in for the flop, and too many times the worst starting hand, which should of been folded right off the bat, wins. An intersting thing, though, was that a Hold 'em tourney was going on while I was playing, and I looked over and saw both Gramatica brothers playing. They were out pretty fast, though.
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| | | 78 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Thu, Jul 22, 2004, 15:38
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Species-
For future reference I would use NETeller but NOT the InstaCash feature. The normal route will take 4-5 business days to transfer into your account, but they won't charge an incredible processing fee. OR if you are out of cash and just have a itch to play...give them the 9%! ;-)
Nice work on your first night. Parents are getting divorced right now and $$$ is tight for my mom and me, but as soon as I can I will open my real $$$ account back up Species and we will play.
THK
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| | | 79 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Thu, Jul 22, 2004, 15:42
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leg-
I am not a fan of limit Hold 'Em either. People calling with 4-9 to beat you with a Full Boat...that is just awful playing...
THK
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| | | 80 | Species
Leader
ID: 7724916
Thu, Jul 22, 2004, 16:21
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THK - I hear you about limit hold 'em, but if you think more globally and can forget the rare bad beat, I love playing against those idiots who call with nothing -- in the long run you will get there money by trapping them with 4 good hands to their 1 lucky river beat.
It was so funny to sit there at the keyboard with a big bluff...waiting, praying for a fold from the person you're up against. "Fold....fold....fold.......YESSSSSSSS!" I can't tell you how many times I did that last night. LOL
Last point: Any pointers/thoughts on playing heads up or even when you're the last 3? Be it for real or online?
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| | | 81 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 48624198
Thu, Jul 22, 2004, 17:18
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leg-
"no foldem holdem" can be tough to play when everyone is chasing with everything...but at times can be very profitable if you are getting good cards and they miss their chases.
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| | | 82 | Species
Leader
ID: 7724916
Thu, Jul 22, 2004, 17:27
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Ohhhhhhhhh......I can't believe I forgot the other classic hand from last night. In the $10 tourney where I steamrolled everyone, one big hand in my comeback after that bad beat was a flush draw I had.
I have K 3 of hearts and called the big blind - no raises on the flop. There's a K on the flop as well as a heart. I stay in when the ace of hearts comes. I know I have the nuts if another heart comes and check at the turn. Two are still in, one guy bets big and I call. The river is my 3rd heart and I have the nuts. I check to the other guy who bets, I go all in immediately and he calls and loses.
In the chat area he says "Crap! I meant to fold!" - I say 'are you serious?' and we talk for a minute. I guess my all-in came so fast that he clicked over the call button by mistake. Oh well! Keep your hand off the mouse and pay attention.
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| | | 83 | beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 3531815
Thu, Jul 22, 2004, 17:29
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I've done that before. It can easily happen if you are playing multiple games at once.
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| | | 84 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 48624198
Thu, Jul 22, 2004, 17:40
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heads up...
To me it is an entirely different game than playing ten handed. More about bluffing - trapping - making the right reads. Obviously when you are heads up you need to start playing almost evey hand...can't sit back and wait for great cards. Need to get a read on your opponent and make the right calls...and at times make a big call of two with marginal hands...many times heads up if I am playing against someone who is playing aggressive and going all-in a lot or make huge bets trying to steal pots I will wait for a time I have at least an ok hand and then call those big bets...though optimally you still want a huge hand but many times you do not have the time to wait because the blinds are large and you are only going to see so many cards.
I am a totally different player heads-up I go from a tight-rock who may only see the flop 20% of the time to raising at almost every opportunity. I like to put the pressure on when headsup. But headsup play really depends on your opponent...if they are ultra-aggressive you may try to trap...if they are tight you may try to steal every hand.
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| | | 85 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 48624198
Thu, Jul 22, 2004, 17:48
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Definitely have to be careful with that online...the accidental call or raise.
Funny story...when I was just starting out I decided to play in a .50-1.00 NL game (probably too big of game for me at the time) and was just sitting there playing tight and I get dealt 3-5 of clubs...garbage hand...someone bets $5 I go to fold and hit raise instead...damn!...I figure there goes $10. He reraises back another $5...I say screw it I am already in for $10...might as well see the flop for $5 more...Flop A-2-4...giving me a straight on the flop...lol...the original raiser bets $10...I raise $20...he goes all-in...I quickly call...he flips AA for trip aces...I flip my crap cards for straight...the guy went crazy/pissed and could not believe I was raising with 3-5 before the flop...I won a $200+ pot. Guy was swearing for a good 10 minutes...I just said "hey they were suited I always raise when I get suited cards"...really I was embarrassed that I won the pot and quickly left the table...what a terrible play but it worked.
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| | | 86 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Thu, Jul 22, 2004, 18:07
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LOL. I would have quickly let as well TRS. That turned out well, haha.
THK
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| | | 87 | Eat Acid
ID: 56646190
Thu, Jul 22, 2004, 18:38
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Heads up--I'm all in with any ace or any pair before the flop. I'm only trying to trap with QQ-AA before the flop, I'd just call out of the small blind and make a tiny raise out of the BB. I call every hand out of the small blind, and if I get raised its contemplation time, will call a small wager with connectors. Aggressiveness is the key, I just try and win more pots then you, even if I get trapped, I can generally get off.
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| | | 88 | Species
Leader
ID: 7724916
Thu, Jul 22, 2004, 18:44
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TRS #85 - funny story. I would've bailed too. I think Norm Chad called that a "Hit and run" on the WSOP coverage.
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| | | 89 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Thu, Jul 22, 2004, 20:43
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Species that is how I play the $0.50/$1 tables at PokerStars. I take in $20 and when I get to $40 I leave. VERY profitable.
THK
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| | | 90 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Thu, Jul 22, 2004, 21:58
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Entered a Sat (500 FPP entry) at Pokerstars. Just 100 in so far and top 4 gain entry into a tournament with 300k guarunteed.
THK
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| | | 91 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Thu, Jul 22, 2004, 22:01
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121 end up in the tournament...I'll let you know how it goes.
THK
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| | | 92 | wazaaap_guy
ID: 3959822
Thu, Jul 22, 2004, 22:52
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whats FPP?
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| | | 93 | rockafellerskank
Dude
ID: 27652109
Thu, Jul 22, 2004, 22:57
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How do you know that 2,3,4 people at an online table don't know each otehr and are talking (cheating) via AIM or messenger as cards are dealt?
[potential] Cheating is what keeps me from participating online.
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| | | 94 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Thu, Jul 22, 2004, 23:34
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Frequent Player Points..
Still in if anybody wants to watch...
Recap later...
THK
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| | | 95 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Fri, Jul 23, 2004, 00:09
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20 left, had a bad run...
Recap later...
THK
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| | | 96 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Fri, Jul 23, 2004, 00:35
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Ok...finished 19th of 121. Not great huh...cost 500 Frequent Player Points to enter...
In the beginning I wasn't getting anything and doing absolutely awful.
-QQ ...120 bet and 3 callers. Flop comes 23K somebody bets 200 I lay it down because I was currently ranked 87 of 93.
-AA ...160 bet and 2 other callers. Flop comes Q67, somebody bets 120 and I raise to 440 and take down the pot. Now ranked 64 of 87
-J8s in the BB. Flop comes 86J all suited...I bet 200 to drive out the draws and it works.
-QJos limp in. KJT...150 bet and I call. 2 then just 50 is bet so I don't think he has much. Q comes on the river giving me 2 pair and I bet 250 and take the pot down. 48 of 77
First Break: I have 1,800 in chips ranked 40 of 57 and the average is 3,187. So I am not doing well...
-A5s in SB and limp in. 69A flops and 450 is bet. I call with the intention to raise on the turn to fake a top kicker. 9 on the turn and somebody bets 200 and I raise to 500 and he quickly folds. 28 of 56
-Lose a few times with nice starting hands and nothing flopped. 2,450 in chips ranked 32 of 43.
-KQs raise 200. 79Q flops and I raise 300 with a caller. T comes on the turn and I am thinking he has a straight becuase he raises my 500 bet to 1,000. J comes on the river and I am ALL IN with the high straight. He flips his low straight and I vault to 4 of 43.
-A9s. 692 flops. I bet 200 with top pair in early pos and raised to 600. I call because he didn't raise pre flop so he could be slowing playing a pair but I stick with him bc this guy was a loose player. 9 on the turn is my $$$ card. He bets 400 and I raise to 1400 and he folds. 6 of 39
-AQos raised double the BB. JK2 flops and he bets 400. I call a short stack. T is the money card on the turn and he bets 200 and then I raise him all in and he folds. 5 of 38
-KQs I called 400 from the chip leader. 478 flops and he bets 200 and I raise to 600 on nothing. 9 comes on the turn and I am still holding nothing...he bets 200 again and I raise to 800 this time and calls to my dismay. 7 on the river and I made up my mind to earn this pot. Chip leader checks and I bet 1k. He lays it down and says he has TT and asks what I had. I said "You wanted to see you should have paid". ;-) 3 of 33
-QQ vs AK and a guy goes all in for cheap and I call and it holds up. Still 3rd
-AKs. JJK and I bet big. He calls and I am worried. X comes on the turn and I bet again he calls. I am really concerned but I am committed. He goes all in for 1k on the river and flips AA over. I couldn't believe all he has bet without that J, not could I believe I called. 7th of 25
-Later lost with an A-Q high flush to an A-K high flush and knocked me to 14th...how quickly it goes.
-88 and I am dwindling so I bet 1k and raised to 2,000 and I call with just 928 left. Ax8 comes on the flop he bets me ALL IN and I call. He had only KK and another A comes on the turn to give me a boat with no K on the river. Back to 12th
-Picked a bad time to bluff late with 75s in the BB and bet after the flop and was called. He bet then I raised...called. Then he bet and I folded...dropped straight to 19th of 20 and I am in dire straights with only about 4k left.
-pick up AK os and I go ALL IN. Called with KQs. Flop comes 9JJ and gives him a few extra outs, but it doesn't matter with the Q comes on the turn and no help for me on the river.
500 FPP lost...19th or 121 against guys that actually play for cash on PokerStars. Didn't get anything early and made a few mistakes late but other than that I thought I played well and the correct hands...
THK
P.S.-The second break was in there somewhere, lol. Thanks to Chuck for stopping by to check it out.
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| | | 97 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Fri, Jul 23, 2004, 00:35
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Sorry for the length of that post.
THK
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| | | 98 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 36881
Fri, Jul 23, 2004, 00:44
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#93 rfs...cheating is a concern but then again if you are sitting in a casino how do you know people are not signaling each other?
In the low limits online I really don't think you have to worry about it much...the players are not that good and there is not enough profit for it to make much difference. In the high limits online it can happen. If you do notice some unusual bets or folds you can email support and they will investigate...if the players play together all of the time or they will look at the hand histories and see if they were unusual betting patterns. The nice thing about online is all of the cards are saved and they can truly investigate.
If there is cheating I guess I don't care because I am consistently making good money.
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| | | 99 | Species
ID: 26471422
Fri, Jul 23, 2004, 00:46
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Down to 5 in a $20 tourney. Guy puts me all in with a 10-4 (flop had a 4) and I have pocket Aces. Gets a BLEEEEEEEEEEEEPING 10 on the river for 2 pair to knock me out! GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
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| | | 100 | kev
ID: 3155515
Fri, Jul 23, 2004, 01:05
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Well, I am entered into the tourney I mentioned above for Saturday evening. I asked about the rebuys, and there is a limit of one, which is nice for me, as I can plan accordingly.
There is a set time limit to the buy in as well, and I was told there were warnings to when the buy in will occur.
Do you guys find that when it is announced that there is, lets say, 5 minutes to buy in, a lot of people go all in on junk? I am just curious as to what people do in a rebuy?
I am committed to use the rebuy if I need it. If near the time limit, I am limping a bit, I will go all in on good cards and see what I can do. If I am successful when the time limit comes up, I will just continue on and see what I can do. I don't really have any thoughts of winning the tourney, I just want to get myself acquainted with playing in a tourney.
Thanks to THK, TRS, Species et all for all the great advice.
We should see if Guru wants to open a Poker message area- I don't see these threads disappearing anytime soon.
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| | | 101 | Farn
Sustainer
ID: 451044109
Fri, Jul 23, 2004, 01:15
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Guru needs to develop some poker software. He can take a 3% rake for donations. :)
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| | | 102 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Fri, Jul 23, 2004, 02:05
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Haha Farn. Species, are you thinking about ever playing in the low limit large tournaments at PS?
THK
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| | | 103 | Species
ID: 26471422
Fri, Jul 23, 2004, 04:31
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I think every night I'm going to continue to play tourneys until I win.
Lost 3 times and entered one last $10, 2-table tourney. Some highlights:
J9s Flop Q 8 10 so I flop a straight. This is relatively early and I slow play it until the turn, pulling in a nice 2230 pot.
A 10s Flop is 5 7 3 with 2 of my hearts. Some decent betting, and some guy goes all in for 1200. I'm the chip leader so I'll give my flush a try. He flips over pocket Queens. Turn comes with my heart and he's knocked out.
The hand of the night was me vs. the chip leader at the final table. This is early in the final table so there are still 8 playing. I have KK and the flop comes A K 6. I'm on the button so the chip leader comes out firing pretty big. I call. Turn is a 6. He bets and I go all in. He calls. Turns over Ax. River is a 7 and my boat takes it.
Won $72.00 on that tourney, but had spent that much before! So I'm still $50.00 up. lol....you've got to love poker.
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| | | 104 | Species
ID: 26471422
Fri, Jul 23, 2004, 15:09
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lmao.....started a $20 tourney. THIRD hand I have Q 7 suited. Preflop raise by someone, 3 of us call. Flop comes Q 8 8 - we all check to the raiser, who bets. One folds, 3 of us in. Turn comes 8 - so I have 8's over Q's. We check to the raiser, who bets pretty big. I go all in, figuring at worst I chop. He calls.......whoooooooooops. Pocket Aces!
Easy come easy go. Out after 3 hands.....lmao.
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| | | 105 | beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 3531815
Fri, Jul 23, 2004, 15:29
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Ewww, don't be calling preflop raises with Q7 suited. You know better than that.
Pokertips
This is a great site I came across awhile back that offers a ton of strategy. They also have a message board with the homeliness feel of Rotoguru. I used to post a lot on their message board but after Party poker screwed me in a multi table tourney I stopped playing poker online and thus stopped posting.
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| | | 106 | Species
ID: 26471422
Fri, Jul 23, 2004, 15:41
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lol......I hear you BMD......but we're talking 3rd hand of the game and $20.00 in chips out of 1500. Yes the preflop raise is strength, but especially early on in these PokerStars tourneys it seemed like people are really loose.
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| | | 107 | Farn
Sustainer
ID: 451044109
Fri, Jul 23, 2004, 15:46
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bmd, how did they screw you? some form of collusion?
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| | | 108 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Fri, Jul 23, 2004, 17:56
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Entering a Limit Stud Free Roll at PokerStars. Let's see how it goes...about 4,000 signed up. Won't give a recap since this isn't my game at all...never even played online, just live, but I will tell you how I finish.
THK
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| | | 109 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Fri, Jul 23, 2004, 19:02
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4210 signed up. Was up to 91st at one point. First break I am 923 of 2,200 right around average.
THK
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| | | 110 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Fri, Jul 23, 2004, 19:38
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1309 of 4210...pretty good since I had never played limit stud in my life. Had As and Qs on the last hand...lost to 3 2's.
THK
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| | | 111 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Fri, Jul 23, 2004, 23:21
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Species-
If you are online....I am invited you to the $3 tournament at PokerStars! ;-) Starts in 10 minutes, sorry for the late notice but I just opened my account. If not, we will hook up in a sit-n-go whenever possible.
What is your handle and I can search for you (mine is the same).
THK
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| | | 112 | Chuck
Sustainer
ID: 169212110
Sat, Jul 24, 2004, 00:06
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Could someone explain how the "Lo" tiebreaker works? If it's the same, it splits, but I figured lowest card would always win. But, consider this:
Dealer: Game #564629582: Chuck42181 wins Hi side pot ($0.76) with two pair, Aces and Eights
Dealer: Game #564629582: Chuck42181 wins Lo side pot ($0.75) with 8,7,4,3,A
Dealer: BROOKLYN23 has a straight, Four to Eight
Dealer: BROOKLYN23 has 7,6,5,4,A for Lo
Dealer: Game #564629582: BROOKLYN23 wins Hi main pot ($2.93) with a straight, Four to Eight
Dealer: Game #564629582: BROOKLYN23 wins Lo main pot ($2.93) with 7,6,5,4,A
Why does his low beat mine? Is it b/c his 7 is lower than my 8? I would think my 3 below his 4 would win, but it didn't.
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| | | 113 | Chuck
Sustainer
ID: 169212110
Sat, Jul 24, 2004, 00:08
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To clarify, which "Lo" would win:
A, 2, 4, 5, 8
A, 4, 5, 6, 7
According to above, I would assume #2?
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| | | 114 | wazaaap_guy
ID: 3959822
Sat, Jul 24, 2004, 00:15
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Starts from the highest low card and works down. So A,4,5,6,7 beats an A,2,3,4,8, and A,4,5,6,8 beats an A,2,3,7,8.
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| | | 115 | R9
Leader
ID: 2624472
Sat, Jul 24, 2004, 00:18
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I see alot of people in Ohmaha Hi/Low bet big with Ace/Two, once they see they've got the other 3 low cards in the flop they need... Only to have an ace or a two flop on the turn or river, and end up giving the low hand to whoever has Ace/Three (if its a 2 that flopped) or Two/Three (if its an Ace that flopped). A/2 is definitely enough to keep me in the pot, but I won't bet it big unless I also have a 3. (Getting dealt Ace/two/three/four is a dream, so long as you get a favorable flop...)
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| | | 116 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Sat, Jul 24, 2004, 00:49
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Long story short about the $3 tourney on PokerStars. I go all in with AK (secound straight time I had it) when JAA was showing on the flop. Guy calls with A8 and an 8 comes on the turn with no K or J on the river.
THK
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| | | 117 | Species
ID: 26471422
Sat, Jul 24, 2004, 00:56
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That beat SUCKED THK. Brutal.
I'm popping into a Sit-n-go now.
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| | | 118 | Chuck
Sustainer
ID: 169212110
Sat, Jul 24, 2004, 01:47
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I think I am liking the low cost Omaha Hi/Lo tables.
I did suffer a few bad beats, but I've been doing fairly well there this evening. The Hold'em tables just killed me. I only played the big hands and lost about 90% of pots I entered. I held ground in the limit and busted out in the no limits.
It took a while, but I recovered all the $$ on the Omaha table tonight.
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| | | 119 | KnicksFan
Donor
ID: 30815418
Sat, Jul 24, 2004, 03:22
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I got into a NL texas hold em tourney at a friend of a friend's house, $40 buy-in, 13 people. Most of them were relatively new to the game so I felt confident I'd at least end up in the money. Instead, I ended up being the first one out.
The guy to the right of me was the early chip leader at my table, and was playing really loose. I am the big blind and I get dealt an AQ os. I make a small raise, and it's called by the guy on my right and one other player. The flop comes KJ10 os, so I flop the high straight, and there's no apparent flush draws, so I feel pretty confident I've got this hand in the bag. I decide to slow play it to squeeze as much money as I can out of these guys. I bet an average amount, and it's called by both guys. The turn is a 9...I bet a little more than last time, one guy folds, the guy on my right stays in. The river is J, I check, the guy bets pretty high, and I go all-in. I figure he either has a king high straight or three jacks. He calls the all-in. I flip my straight, which I'm proud of...until he shows his pocket J10 and full house.
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| | | 120 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Sat, Jul 24, 2004, 03:38
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In another 50 FPP tournament. 24 left...at 2nd break.
THK
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| | | 121 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Sat, Jul 24, 2004, 04:09
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ALL IN with QQ. Of course A3os called me (9k bet). Guess what card comes on the river...
A
What else huh?
Another inferior hand beating me on the river...I hate when I make the right play and still get screwed.
THK
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| | | 122 | Eat Acid
ID: 56646190
Sat, Jul 24, 2004, 08:53
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RE:Cheating--They still have to beat my hand. Just another reason why I prefer the nut players game, omaha. I'm going to blather inbetween hands about my pot limit strategy.
First off, its 100 $ buy in max, you can start with less but thats dumb. Always have as many chips as you can on a pot limit or no limit table, so as to get value for your hand. After all, you do have confidence that its the best hand, right? Buying in for less is simply predicting failure. It also will hamstring your creativity, which I will attempt to illustrate later.
Starting hands for PL Hi-lo----These are going to be inordinately different than than a limit list, partially because of my nature but mostly because of the nature of the game itself. If you are going to play limit read beastie's site, its solid. Here's what I look for, in order of preference:
AA double onsuit, A2 suited, A-x onsuit with a wheel card or 2, (3,4,5), A-x onsuit with 2 face cards (10-K), 4 cards in a row or with one gap above a 9, regardless of suit, ie (9-10-J-Q), (9-J-Q-K).
These are the hands that I will play in any position, for any preflop raise. If its raised and re-raised in front of me by 2 players I respect, I may lay down a hand like (A-4-5-Q on), simply because I feel that there probably aren't too many 2's and 3's out there, and therefore I'm probably drawing at half the pot. Huge thematic point---never draw to half the pot in pot limit omaha hi lo, especially heads up. Mathematically it can be proven that winning the whole pot once is better than splitting it twice, I'm more of a poker guy than a math guy, but the illustration is on cardplayer and maybe beastie's site if you don't want to take my word for it. Then there is also the simple fact that if you are drawing to both the high and low sides of a pot you have more outs to not walk away empty handed. A-A double on gives you top pair and 2 nut flush draws. Your other 2 cards affect this holdings strength enormously, ie 2-3 or K-Q is much better than 6-9. I would raise preflop with any of them however, because A-A plays much better against a limited field. In a game full of monkeys however, where 5 people see the flop no matter how much loot it is to them, I'd probably just call from early position, and either see a flop or make a huge reraise on the backside to clear the field. A-2 suited is the opposite. This hand you want as many customers as possible, and the ability to get off when the flop comes 10-10-9 no flush draw. Simply call. Even when the flop comes Q-8-4 no flush draw, you'd rather have less money in the pot. Why? Because someone has at least top 2 pair, or a set, or even a monkey slamming it with the 7-6-5 wrap. If that person bets the pot, you hope its a small one because (A) more people will call chasing garbage, and (B) you are drawing at half the pot. If that bet clears the field then you have lost your overlay and are violating the huge thematic point. A recipe for bankroll decimation. The reason why the other hands are playable should be obvious by now, they draw at the entire pot, with a chance to make the best hand. The high only hands you have to hit hard, top 2 pair minimum, and you'd really rather make the straight. Still, top 2 on a unsuited board with only 1 card to a low is a legitimate holding worth a pot sized bet.
Creativity is all about position and player anaylsis in PL. I call 95% of my button hands. 95%!!! How loose is that? Basically any hand that doesn't have trips in it. Why? Because being last to act in a PL game that is being played in a straightforward manner, ie there aren't any studs or 5 monkeys at the table, is a huge advantage. I'll pick up 3 pots an hour, to pay for my blinds, simply by firing out the size of the pot after its checked to me. I'll pick up at least one more by waiting for a solid player to make that play and then reraising him the size of the pot on the backside because he is just betting the button. Watch for timing tells on this, a player that pre-checks the bet pot box generally has a hand, except on the button.
Another creative play I love is calling a huge pre-flop raise from a rock solid player with a very marginal holding, something like any 2 pair or any 4 in a row or a one gapper. Why? Because when a rock bets the pot before the flop he has A-A. When I know 2 of your cards, I am alot better at knowing whether or not I'm winning. If I flop any 2 pair, or any wrap draw, I'm going to either raise all in after you bet out with your aces, or check raise the minimum if my holding is extremely strong comparitively, ie (10-9-7-6) vs (A-A-?-?), flop of J-9-8. Its a total wrap on the idiot end of the straight, but its a monster here. Why? Because he only has 2 other cards, and the chance that they are ones that hurt you, ie k-q or q-10 is marginal. Its dangerous to talk in absolutes on this one, you learn by feel, but trapping good players with A-A is extremely profitable and a good tool in the arsenal.
Well, I've blathered enough, hopefully its enough of a taste to get you guys interested in the game, but if you like money more than just playing you'll give it a whirl. I only play NL tourneys now, and mainly only to blow off steam.
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